Birmingham Lit Fest Presents….

In this week’s episode we welcome Candice Brathwaite, author of the bestselling book, I Am Not Your Baby Mother. In conversation with fellow bestselling author Dorothy Koomson, they discuss the urgent need to redefine motherhood, the silencing of black women’s pain and the experience of publishing a book in the midst of a global pandemic and the resurgence of Black Lives Matter protests across the world.

The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast brings writers and readers together to discuss some of 2020’s best books. Each Thursday across the next few months we’ll be releasing new episodes of the podcast, including wonderful discussions
about writing, poetry, big ideas and social issues. Join us each week for exciting and inspiring conversations with new, and familiar, writers from the Midlands and beyond.

Take a look at the rest of this year's digital programme on our website: https://www.birminghamliteraturefestival.org/.
For more information on Writing West Midlands, visit https://writingwestmidlands.org/

Follow the festival on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @BhamLitFest

Credits

Curator: Shantel Edwards (Festival director)
Guest Curator: Kit de Waal
Production: 11C/ Birmingham Podcast Studios for Writing West Midlands

TRANSCRIPT

BLF Podcast Transcription, Episode 4: Candice Braithwaite in conversation with Dorothy Koomson 

Kit de Waal
Welcome to the Birmingham Lit Fest Presents...podcast series. I’m Kit de Waal and I’ve worked with the 

Festival Director, Shantel Edwards, as Guest Curator of this year’s podcast series. Each Thursday across the next few months we’ll be releasing new episodes of the podcast, including wonderful discussions about writing, poetry, big ideas and social issues. In this week’s episode we welcome Candice Brathwaite, author of the bestselling book, I Am Not Your Baby Mother, in conversation with fellow bestselling author Dorothy Koomson. Candice’s book, part memoir and part social commentary, offers a brilliantly observed guide to life as a black mother in the UK and an urgent call to recognise the diversity of motherhood. Join them as they discuss redefining motherhood, the silencing of black women’s pain and the experience of publishing a book in the midst of a global pandemic and the resurgence of Black Lives Matter protests across the world. 

Dorothy Koomson
Hello, my name's Dorothy Koomson and today I am talking to the wonderful Candice Brathwaite – I have to say that properly. And I actually listened to her book rather than reading it because I wanted to get a sense of who Candice is. And so I know how to say her name properly. So yeah, Candice Brathwaite is something of a powerhouse in the social media world and in, naturally, the real world. She has helped to transform the lives of millions, and I do say millions because she has touched so many people: the lives of millions of mothers everywhere by showing them that mothers don't all look one way and they don't all have to have shiny hair and a certain amount of money in the bank to be good mothers who love and care about their children. And she's a top-tier influencer. And it was from her experiences on the differing ways of being a mother that led her to found Make Motherhood Diverse, an online initiative that Candice describes as aiming to encourage a more accurately representative and diverse depiction of motherhood in the media. Basically, to show us all that all mothers don't look the same, they don't have the same experiences and we are all different but all good parents. 

Candice has two children, Esmé-Olivia, and Richard Junior known as RJ, and she lives with her husband Bodé in Milton Keynes. Her book, I Am Not Your Baby Mother, published earlier this year, really lifted the lid off what it means to be a black mother in our modern world. And she describes her experiences and the experience of so many other black women in all its dangerous, humorous, scandalous, humbling, empowering and beautiful glory. Candice is talking to me today about her book, life and of course, ice cream. And I say ice cream because my first question to you, Candice, is going to be, What's your favourite flavour of ice cream? 

Candice Brathwaite 
Um, Cookie Dough. 

Dorothy Koomson 
Cookie Dough? 

Candice Brathwaite
Yeah, specifically a bit of Ben and Jerry's. 

Dorothy Koomson 
Ben and Jerry's. 

Candice Brathwaite
I don't wanna advertise to them but ... Ben and Jerry's Cookie Dough. It's up there. It is up there. 

Dorothy Koomson
You see, I can't eat that, unfortunately, because I'm gluten free, and so I'm gutted when I see other people eating those things. It's just – oh, okay. Well, now I know that, see, we've started on a good footing. You've got a good flavour of ice cream up there. So, my second important question to you was going to be, What's your favourite flavour of baby food? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, baby food? Oh, gosh! 

Dorothy Koomson
I bet no one's ever asked you that before. 

Candice Brathwaite
I'm a bit stuck. Yes, never! I'm like, you know, anything appley if that makes sense like. And this is the thing: so you know my background is Caribbean and my husband's background is Nigerian so even like the idea of baby food that comes in jars – that's so foreign to us. 

Dorothy Koomson 
I know. 

Candice Brathwaite
You just like, yeah, you just mash down what you're eating and give it to the baby. 

Dorothy Koomson
Yes, I know. That was why I wanted to double-check. You see, I wanted to double-check on you. I was checking up on you in a different way, see. 

[Laughter.] 

Dorothy Koomson
So I should follow that up by asking is it plantain or jollof. Which is your favourite out of those two? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, plantain! It's not even up for a competition with me. 

Dorothy Koomson
Okay, all right. So I’m gonna be serious now, yeah. So how is your lockdown been? Because I know it's, we're coming out of it apparently. I'm not, I'm still distancing and stuff. But how's it been for you? 

Candice Brathwaite
Do you know what? Lockdown was, was really difficult in, in, in a lot of ways. You've got, I've got two underage kids at home. It's hard to explain, especially to a two-year old, why he can't go to his childminder. And, you know, you're spending all of this extra time with a family you really do love but you need some space. And then it was, there was another layer of difficulty. My first book was published during lockdown, which I was really, really nervous about because I'm a debut author anyway. I'm gonna be nervous: I don't know how this works. And you could have millions of followers on social media. If you want to be taken seriously as a writer there is, I had an idea in my head about getting to meet my readers, about being on a physical book tour. And to see dates just get erased from my diary, I was like, oh, okay. I was even saying to the publishing house, like, I think we should delay this and luckily, they, you know, they had faith that it would be okay. But it's been really, really hard because – you would know better than me – writing a book is one thing, promoting it is a different beast. 

Dorothy Koomson 
It is. 

Candice Brathwaite
And yeah, the, the work of promotion, the interviews, the talking. I was like, I, I wasn't ready for it, I don't feel. And being at home and only doing these things in a digital manner took a toll for sure. 

Dorothy Koomson
Yes, but you like to meet people. I mean, I had a book out in lockdown as well. And bookshops are closed, then there's all the events – we were planning a tour as well. And so we had to cancel all of that because of the lockdown and stuff. But your book's done fantastically well. It's been amazing. And I've seen it everywhere. And it deserves do amazingly because it is a fantastic book. 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, thank you. You know, I'm just taking it all in my stride because me and I, I guess, as the writer, and you've got way more experience than me. But it was new to me to feel so nervous and so disconnected and really understand that, okay, I've written this book, but it doesn't actually belong to me. So, like, I started to really get that, say the first week it was out. And you're just hearing all of these opinions and all of this talk and all of these reviews. And I suddenly understood that I'm like a surrogate mother to this message that's now just gone out into the world. And that was really nerve wracking. And I'm always quick to remind people that I – of course, I think it's a good book – but there is a lot to be said that the book gained traction really quickly because of the murder of George Floyd. And I don't think we can overlook that moment, you know? 

Dorothy Koomson
Your book came out with the resurgence of Black Lives Matter in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. And people started to talk again about Breonna Taylor and things like that. How did that feel because your book is so relevant, it's so of the moment it's actually quite spooky? It's almost like you had second sight, but you obviously didn't because that stuff's never gone away. It's been, we have been talking about it for years. But now everyone else is talking about it. So how did that feel to find that, that everyone, that everyone else was talking about the stuff that you'd been talking about for a long time, and the stuff you wrote about? 

Candice Brathwaite
Really ... I'm going to take a leap of faith and be confident for a moment and say, really I felt really confident. That's the word. Because I was like, actually, this isn't new to me; this isn't new to the people that I would class as brothers and sisters, who have always been here doing this work in one way or another; this is not a new conversation. So, I knew in that moment being called on to the news, or people using the book as a tool for anti-racism, which is not what I was thinking when I sat down to write it. That bit didn't make me nervous because I was like, if there is one place where I am qualified it is in the black British experience. It's in understanding how racism has affected my life and my grandparents' lives and so on. That bit I was fine with. 

What made me nervous and I wasn't so confident in was seeing my book being pulled into these ginormous lists of tools. Now, you know – 'You have to read Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race, you have to read Natives by Akala, and you've got to read, I Am Not Your Baby Mother' – that bit took my breath away because at that point the book had been out seven days. I was like, hold on, hold on, guys, hold on a second, these books have had years to marinate; they've been the kind of books that you have on your bookshelf for a while – for at least three, four, some five years. And it was like watching a newborn being forced to go to uni. I was like, this book is really new. Why are you guys putting a cap and gown on it? Like, I don't understand. But then when I started hearing the feedback and rereading my writing from a different perspective, especially a chapter like ‘Young, Gifted and Stabbed’, that was like, ah, okay, I do get it. And it was, it was me having a moment of being like, yeah, were you having a vision when you wrote this? because you could not predict, I don't want to use the term 'perfect', but that's the only word I can find. It was just such perfect timing. 

Dorothy Koomson
Yeah. It's and it's also really sad timing that was the thing. I mean, how did it ... I know what you've just said, but how did the whole experience of that time take its toll on you emotionally? Because for me I spent a lot of time really hurt, I suppose, with people's responses to it because ... And that's why I ended up writing my letter, open letter to the public to the industry. Because we've been fighting this fight and talking about this stuff and doing what we can all this, all these years. And suddenly everyone was like, 'Oh, yeah, we've been doing this, we understand this, we've been here.' And I was like, no, you haven't. And it really ... You know, my husband and I were both really like, it's exhausting and tiring and upsetting and, and I got really angry sometimes. And I just felt bereft a lot of time. And it did help talking to other people. But how did you get through it? 

Candice Brathwaite
Yeah, I was really tired. And I think I got to the two-week mark and I, I was like actually, no more TV interviews, none of that nonsense, because that's how it feels. We have a moment like this twice a year, once a year, and then they call on the same black speakers, the same black voices to come back and almost, like, argue racism with white people on national TV. And I was like, yeah, that's no good for my soul either. I'm really about activism from a joyful perspective. So, your media tells me that all black men are in jail, and that all black women are baby mothers who are on like the nineteenth floor with a lift that doesn't work, and they, they can't pick the dad out in a line-up. So, I'm purposely going to come on this internet every day and stuff a black nuclear family down your throat, just so I can be like the antidote to this constant false stereotype of black people being a certain way. And that's what got me through. And when I saw my social media platforms start to grow, I turned on something which meant that new people couldn't comment, they couldn't speak. And I was like, listen, you guys, you new people – you're gonna have to acclimatise for about a month. I don't want to hear from you because you've probably come to follow me thinking that I'm going to be your one way out of your racist thinking. Or, you know, I'm going to help you solve your white privilege. And it's not that ... This space is actually first and foremost for black people who want to see themselves depicted in a positive light. But the time was so heavy, I would say, you know, borderline depressing, actually. It was a really difficult time. Because also we cannot overlook what seeing someone murdered being pushed to your phone does for your psyche if you're a black person. Some of these videos of George Floyd didn't even have like a trigger layer on them. It was just there. 

Dorothy Koomson 
It was just there. 

Candice Brathwaite
And I, yeah. And I feel like we are way more respectful of white bodies and trauma. 

Dorothy Koomson
Absolutely. They would not show half the stuff they showed and in its, soaked in its glory, as it were that – 'glory' isn't the right word. And, you know, it was just there. I couldn't, I didn't actually watch the whole thing but I started. I saw it come up on my feed a few times and I was like, this is just horrific, I can't watch this. I mean, I cover my eyes when anything comes on Casualty, so can you imagine trying to watch in real life something as awful as that? It's really, really ... You're right. That's the thing is people are much more respectful of white pain. And, you know, and it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem to be as fair as it were, you know. We [are] kind of like thrown, this stuff is thrown at us, and we are having to look at it and then comment on it and then move on from it. 

Candice Brathwaite
Yeah, and act unaffected, you know, or–– 

Dorothy Koomson  

And allow people to tell us that it's, that it's nothing to do with race. 

Candice Brathwaite 

Yeah, he had a, he had a $20 bill that was counterfeit, okay. But I've seen images of that white kid who shot up that church a couple years ago. They escorted him out of that church not even handcuffs. 

Dorothy Koomson
He got a takeaway as well, let's not forget. 

Candice Brathwaite
I know. He got Maccy D's, I think. But oh, it does, it really ... ! Again, I can just feel myself getting hot just thinking about it. 

Dorothy Koomson
I know, I know. I think let's just move away from that, Candice. Let's move away. Let's go back to ice cream. But why did you, why did you decide to write the book because, I mean, the book it goes, it goes to lots of different places and in a very specific and because I listened to the audiobook I kind of felt like I got to know you. I mean, I don't know you, I'm not a crazy from the internet who thinks they're your best friend. But I did feel like I got to, to know you a bit and, and how you speak and how you enunciate things. And so, why did you decide to bring what was a lot on Instagram and on your blog into, into a book? 

Candice Brathwaite
Do you know what, I'm not gonna sit here and lie – that decision was made for me. Before the proposal for this book, there were five others that got turned down. And so, I just felt like that the, the common, the common themes in being turned down were stuff like, 'Oh, we really love your writing, but we think you should go away and grow your social media profile first'. I kept hitting that. And then a week later they'd email my management and be like, 'Oh, but if she ever, would she ever consider writing about motherhood?' and I was in a really difficult position. Although people saw me as a mummy blogger, I speak really frankly when I say I find most mummy blogger books to be abhorrent and not filled with much. And in a month's time you're going to use it as like, a coffee coaster, you're not gonna keep that in your library forever. 

So, for years I was like running away from motherhood. I was like I'll write about anything but that because I don't respect that genre when it comes to writing and reading, I don't. And I remember writing this proposal in like 45 minutes. I think the title I threw in there in that 45 minutes as well. And I said to my management, don't ever talk to me about this proposal again, 'cos I no longer care. And two weeks later I got a call from Quercus. They were like, 'Oh, this is really good and we want it now'. And I was like, and I thought, you know, I thought being like so off the cuff with it would call people's bluff. So, I pushed a little further. I was like, yeah, but I bet you're gonna call me into your office and you wanna dilute what I want to say, and I bet you find the title too abrasive. And they were like, 'No, we want it all'. And I was like, okay, fine, then we go. And then I found through writing it I, you know, I found that a lot of me not wanting to write this book was ego based, I have to admit that. There was an idea in my head about what it meant to be a respected writer and I was, I've been proved very wrong in writing this book because it's what people have wanted for a very long time, but I tried to run away from it. And now reading it back I'm like, oh, you could not have begun your writing career with anything else, that is very clear. 

Dorothy Koomson
It's funny. What in your head was a respected writer? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, just ... Okay, so this is really funny. It's so funny how they would tell me to grow my social media profiles. In my head a respected writer's not on social media because they're busy writing and going out into the world. 

Dorothy Koomson
I know what you mean. I'm joking with you. I'm messing with you. 

Candice Brathwaite
It's not the be all and end all ... I just found some of these [publishing] houses to be obsessed with like followers and engagement. And I'm like, okay, so are you a publishing house, or are you ... because the lines have become so blurred. And I'm like, you know, there are wicked authors with 100 followers on Instagram. And I'm like, so why does it matter? So, in my mind a respected author was not an influencer or a blogger. It was someone who has always enjoyed reading and could string a sentence or two together. Because that's another thing, again I can't lie, lots of these bloggers have ghost writers. Lots of them are only offered a deal because they have a million followers. It's not because they can write, you know. And so, I found it, for a long time I found the process of trying to become published really heartbreaking. And like, I just, I realised a lot of things during that period. I really learned how publishing first and foremost is a business. And more often than not, many of these houses are willing to put numbers before actual talent. And that's really scary, you know. 

Dorothy Koomson
In the book you're very open about your feelings. And as you know, you're a lot more open than most black people are about, particularly about personal stuff and mental health and the things that go wrong. So, has being that open helped you, empowered you, do you think or held you back or harmed you in any way? 

Candice Brathwaite
I think a bit of both. I think off the top I will say I think, aside from mental health, and cancer, I think one of the biggest killers in the black community is secrecy. And I know so many black women specifically, that will just take the craziest things to the grave, or just like the maddest level of abuse. And, you know, they'll live till they're 90 and it's not until they die that certain things are coming out. Or we, we start to understand them as 3D humans because we hear the truth about how they were treated in life. So, I would say that I'm a unicorn in my family for sure. I think I'm the baby that came out with a glitch. And there are so many people in my family who are like, wow, why doesn't this one just ever shut up? Like, I have family members who, no matter this book's success, they have gone and told everyone that I've bought maximum shame to the family. They're like, 'Oh, my God, do not read this book, she's embarrassed us so greatly. How dare she put our’ – it's my business, but my business is their business apparently – ‘how dare she put our business in the streets like she's the scum of the earth'. Hand on heart that has been the reaction from the bulk of my family. 

So I would say behind closed doors it's not worked in my favour, but publicly it's a sword that I will always fall on because this is why we have 8, 10, 15, 16-year-old black girls not saying when their uncle is sexually abusing them, not talking about when, you know, they're older when a man is hitting them, not talking about feeling less than for things because of colourism and skin tone. It's because of this, this inbred silencing we seem to have within the black community, which from an empathetic standpoint I get because we've always had to struggle. And so, I think it's easier to pretend that we don't have issues in our own community because other communities do that really well on our behalf. But all I'm thinking about are the young girls who are being abused or don't like the way their life is turning out because they feel like they can't be honest. And so ... And I also remember I've got a six-year-old girl watching my every move. And the reason why I know what I'm doing is working – when her Nigerian grandfather came to stay with us he had dinner and then he called her to remove his plate and she turned to him and she said, 'Granddad, I'm not doing that, because there's nothing wrong with your legs'. And I swear–– 

Dorothy Koomson
I'm sorry, I'm laughing because, you know what, my family are West African, my goodness ... 

Candice Brathwaite 

| ... You felt the earth shake, like! I felt, like, planet Mars has just spin on its axis.  | You know, he just then went 

into Yoruba about disrespect and 'Oh, my God, what's got into kids these days?' And then Esmé's dad came down and like and backed it for her, and that was important also. He was like, 'Dad it's a different day and it's not that she's not respectful; it's just that we train especially our girl child to have a voice and have an opinion'. And what it made it equally as interesting is a week later I had just eaten, and she came to me with no hesitation and she said, 'Oh, mum, should I take your plate to the sink?' So, it wasn't about respect. It was about: 'You're asking me to do something that I don't feel like doing'. And I feel like in the black community another thing that has us in a chokehold is respectability politics. It's like, oh, I should just do what this adult's asking because they're an adult. No, sometimes the adult is asking you to do something dangerous. And so I feel like me being so open, even though it's been heartbreaking to literally lose family over work like this, I've gained a different kind of family in the women that message me, and email me literally saying like, 'You, you've made me leave an abusive relationship’, or ‘finally stand up to my toxic family.' Like, that's a big deal. 

Dorothy Koomson
Yeah. And that's what I was gonna ask you because I know on the, on the flip side, I've had over the years, I've had so many emails from women who said that your book has changed my life or it has helped me and I realise that I'm not alone and that, you know, black girls can feel like this. And black girls can be the hero or the love interest. You know, we don't have to be, look a certain way. So, I was gonna say, you must have had so much of that because your book is so detailed and it goes into so many different places and so many different ... I mean, you don't have to be a mother to sit, to understand or to, to experience some of the stuff that you talk about in it. So, you must have had lots of contact from other people, you know, who've made up for it. And I know family is everything. But when you do lose them in those circumstances have you, you must have had other people who've stepped into that breach? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, completely. And, you know, my granddad who I love dearly and he raised me, he has this saying where he says, 'I will love you without hiccup'. And he means to say like, I'm gonna love you regardless of the worst thing you think you've ever done. And I find it really shocking that there are strangers that love me without hiccup. There are strangers that email me and are like, warts and all we really appreciate you and the work you do. And I was watching this recent documentary Oprah did and she was talking about, you know, how disconnected she feels from family. But she then said, 'For 25 years the Oprah show has been my family, that audience', and I really felt that in my chest. I was like, yeah, my readers are really now standing in for actual family. They are filling that gap. And they're reminding me that, they're also reminding me – and I think it's because I'm in therapy that I'm just trying to see this with a softer gaze – that actually there is so much that maybe certain friends and family are not ready to deal with that, that's why that relationship can't go on. It's not necessarily a battle. Perhaps in my writing I just hold up a mirror and people don't like the reflection. They're like, yeah, I'm not ready to deal with that so you're now, like, the annoyance in my life. And that's cool. You know, I have to make peace with that side of things. 

Dorothy Koomson
That's the important thing I think, you know, was it ... Did it feel therapeutic writing the book or did it just feel like, you know, you're dredging up all the things that have happened to, to expose? 

Candice Brathwaite
It felt a bit of both so, and – trigger warning for anyone listening – there is a chapter where I discuss sexual assault and I don't just want to dive into that. But that, that specific couple of paragraphs were submitted after I'd submitted the finished book. Because as I was writing it, there was a part of me that was like, yeah, but you're not telling the whole story, and you know what, holding this bit back, if you put it in there, what could it do for others. But I just wasn't willing to go there because with a paid therapist I haven't been there yet. And I was like, so now you're really gonna just tell these bits of yourself to strangers, and you've not worked on some things in your private space. And so it did feel really cathartic because there's so much in that book that maybe some of my nearest and dearest didn't know about me or didn't know about my situation. But I'm, I've, I'm becoming – because I'm not there yet – but I'm becoming one of these writers who's willing to leave it all on the table. Because, especially with non-fiction, I can feel when a writer's not done that. I can feel in a, in a story, I'm like, something's missing here. And I didn't ever want to be a fraud. And that feels like a wrong thing to say because it's my business and I shouldn't be perceived as a fraud for not sharing something. But I just think sexual assault specifically is such a problem in my community that if I didn't put something like that in there it, it wouldn't be the same book. If I didn't speak so openly about abortion it wouldn't be the same book. Because these are the things that are specifically thrown on young black girls as, like, cloaks of shame. 

Dorothy Koomson
Absolutely. And you know, and that's, that's one of the things that we need to kind of address. And I do, when I write a book, I do try and be as honest and authentic and tell people's stories. And it was, it was very refreshing to read a – I know you say it's not a biography, it's a memoir more than anything – that is, that deals with it and is very open about it. And you know, and the way you discuss the sexual assault and abortion and stuff, and you're very open as like, if you can't deal with it, then you need to put this down. You know ... what made me laugh about your book a lot is stuff that I could just see myself, hear myself saying things like that, and I could just see my husband's face thinking, Oh God! Oh, that woman. And it really made me laugh. I'll tell you one thing that really made me laugh was when you were talking about the travel system, and I knew what you were talking about before you named it, I knew what you were talking about, I knew it. I was laughing to myself about that as well. There's so many bits in it that are really funny. And then there are bits of it that are really heart-rending and, you know, that can bring a tear too. I'm not just talking about the things like the, the chapter on, on stabbings and stuff like that. I mean, just the little things like the schooling chapter, or why you decided to set up Make Motherhood Diverse, those things: they kind of are heart-rending as well because you kind of see where they came from and how alone you felt out there and how alone other mothers must have felt before you started it, before you, you came and decided to push forward and keep doing it. And, and then and that's kind of very empowering. Like I say, you don't have to be a mother to read this to, to get something from it. I mean, I love your analogies, like the pyramid and the Kentucky Fried Chicken and things. They're very poignant and very, very insightful. I don't want, I wanted to try and avoid talking too much about what's in the book 'cos I want other people to go and read it and experience it like I did. But I want to keep going but you remember that bit that really made me laugh, that bit? I have been there. But the thing, I mean, one of the things that was very important about your book was bringing up the fact that black women, black mothers are treated so badly in the healthcare system. We know we can pretend that they're not, we can pretend that, you know, they go into it and it's equal and we're all treated the same but we're so not, we're absolutely not. And your story pre- and post-birth was very affecting, I found. How did it feel writing that down? 

Candice Brathwaite
That honestly, that one was the easiest chapter because by the time I handed that manuscript in I had been on so many podcasts, I'd, you know, spoken to so many news outlets about that. I just feel like, if it was in the reverse, and this were white women the NHS would have been called to public task by now. And there would have been a massive inquiry and a shake-up. And I feel like because its primarily black bodies being discarded or black women dying, this is why it's taken just so long to find a way to stop this. And I mean, I also started a petition to get the government to discuss this, and they had the cheek to respond in their petition with data about the fact, you know, that you know that black babies are more likely to die than any other baby in their first months of life. I thought, wow, this is your response: it's so, just the entitlement, the way the black life really doesn't matter in a situation where the structure is based in white supremacy. I was like, this is so mind blowing to me. And the fact it has now had enough signatures, but that petition was stagnant for months, for months. 

Dorothy Koomson
I remember, I remember, sharing it on my Facebook, my Facebook page, and I had several people sign it, but I had several people going, 'Oh, it's because you know, sometimes they don't know how to speak up.' I was like, don't talk nonsense to me. Don't, don't talk nonsense to me. Because I mean, I try to avoid arguing with people in public. It's one of my things I try not to do. So, I was just like, you know what, I'm gonna block you because I can't, you know–– 

Candice Brathwaite
Do you know why that doesn't make sense? It's because on another day black women are loud and angry. 

Dorothy Koomson
Oh, yeah ... None of it makes sense. 

Candice Brathwaite
So, when we're in, when we're in the most pain physically possible, what – we just fall mute? It's just, and it's the fact that people even want to argue that data or find any other reason for it than to be racism and racial bias. No, it's not that it's gestational diabetes. No, it's not that they eat too much dumplings. No, it's not that. It's like, come on, stop! You know? And when I had Esmé I was the healthiest I've ever been. So, for me to fall so ill, and really genuinely come that close to dying, I think yeah, this could have ended so differently for me. And it's not until that data was available that then thousands of other black women come out the woodworks and they're like, 'Well, I didn't die, but they've left my child paralysed from the neck down’. ‘Well, I didn't die but I was given a cut from my front to my back with no anaesthetic.' And I'm just like, are we in cavewoman times? 

Dorothy Koomson 
Well, exactly. 

Candice Brathwaite
The stories you hear, they just, they're really distressing. But it was important that that chapter was in there just to remind people what we're dealing with, you know. You can tell me that knife crime is a black issue when it's black on black crime, you could tell me that I'm lying about the story about my kid, but are you really gonna argue with data that the NHS themselves have provided? That was the point of that. 

Dorothy Koomson
I know. It's, it's heartbreaking that we have to constantly argue, to be seen, to be, you know, to be even noticed, let alone taken seriously. So, what sort of advice would you give to someone who wants to do what you do, because you know, what you do is quite unique at the moment. I can't, can't think of anyone else who does all the different things that you do. 

Candice Brathwaite
You know, it's sad but you've got to go into this career, which has so many different layers to it, but you've got to go in it prepared for people to want to mess you up at every step of the way. And that's such an unfortunate thing to lead with. But I came into it just really like a young bushy-tailed kid, like, I wanna to be friends with everyone, and if I meet this person, I'm going to tell them what I fan I am of their work and, you know, and then time and time again, people would be mean to me; time and time again, I'd get trolled. And I'd literally physically cry in my bed and say to Bodé, like I don't mean anyone bad, like, I always go out with the best intentions. And then him and my friends will be like, yeah, but in a lot of ways people see you as a threat. And I'm like, me? The me that could barely afford at the time to get the bus to wherever I've been, or the tube to see this person or go to this event? I'm the threat? Like, it just felt so silly. So I would tell people: prepare in, in every area for people to see your light before you do, and to want to out it. And so that way, when people do try and trip you up, you know, sometimes it's not the actual falling that hurt me, it was the fact that I didn't see that someone was gonna do that. I'm like, I don't mind falling, I don't mind shame –whatever that means – or being embarrassed in public. What undoes me is when that has been brought on by someone that I considered a friend or someone I trusted, and that's a hard ... finding people you trust in any industry, but in an industry that's so public, is really difficult. 

Dorothy Koomson
I absolutely agree, you know. I'm sorry to jump in. But, you know, it's funny, because my husband said almost exactly the same thing to me recently. I mean, I've been doing this job for a long time, but I discovered the resurgence of Black Lives Matter brought all sorts of people out the woodwork. And a lot of them discovered, you know, a lot of people who, because I was a bit like you in the, in that I try to help everybody out that I can, you know: authors want a quote or they want people to read their work, I try the best I can to help. And I did discover that people over the years haven't even picked up my book because it was written by a black person. 

Candice Brathwaite 

Wow! 

Dorothy Koomson
And this is people you respect. And I was like, wow, so basically all this time it's not because you didn't like my work, it's because you didn't even bother to pick it up. And, you know, like you said, I was really like, really hurt. And like you say, it's being tripped up. And I felt really silly that I hadn't realised this sooner. But my husband said something similar to your husband, you don't realise that people might see you as a threat. 

Candice Brathwaite
Yeah. Yeah. When you're just so focused on doing the best you can do for yourself and others I'm not looking for potholes, or for people to be like the Tasmanian devil and be a few miles ahead making those holes, I'm just like, oh, I'm trying my best, I'm being a good person. But some people don't see it like that. And it's been hard, you know, I'll be very black and say, that has been the wickedest lesson of my life. I just feel like I have been spun out by the levels that people will go to, especially when they see what they perceive to be a successful black woman. Oh, no. 

Dorothy Koomson 

Yeah. 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, how dare she? How dare she, you know? Being a bit more light-hearted, and I know, this is so cliché, but just remember no one can be you. I think in like the early days of, especially social media, I was like looking at what other people were posting or saying and working really hard to replicate that. And my life didn't start to open up until I owned all of me, all of it. I think especially dark-skinned black women we think we can only own sections of ourself at a time, right? I'm mum here, I'm this here, I'm that here. Oh, you know, my skin's this complexion so maybe if I wear my hair like this. I don't follow any of those rules. I show up in every room with very dark skin and a close-shaved head and the gap in my teeth. And I skin them the same! I'm just like, and everyone's like, wow, like, 'How are you so confident when on paper the world is saying it's women like you we really shouldn't be checking for?' I'm like, I don't know, I don't know. But clearly that energy has helped propel my career forward. So, I would say to anyone just remember to be yourself because what the last year or so has shown me especially on social media is that those who are playing nasty games behind the scenes, they do have their moment where the spotlight comes on them. And you don't ever want to be that person. So, if you're always being yourself you've got nothing to worry about. 

Dorothy Koomson
I’ve followed you for quite a while. But some of the stuff you posted that has been obviously really painful and the response has been in the main really supportive. People have really supported you. And I think that's because of the authentic, authenticity in everything you do. 

Candice Brathwaite
Yes, completely. Like when I, genuinely, when I feel like my back's up against the wall and I have to post something. And that feels really silly because I'm like, I'm not Beyoncé. So, the fact that I even have to make a statement of sorts, it does remind me how then how people might see me as a threat, because I'm like ... Also, why would you make a scene of any little thing that I do? I don't know why I'm that important. But I have to lead by example. And I think, yeah, if I'm gonna be like, love yourself, own everything, including your flaws, like I have to lead with that too. It’s one of the hardest things to do but also once it's done you just bring such a sigh of relief, because no one is, is not gonna make a mistake. No one's gonna live a perfect life, like we are these nuanced beings. But I know how higher the stakes are when you're a black woman. I know that. I know that. I know that we feel we can't get away with what someone else would get away with. Or you may feel like your career can't come back from a certain thing. But you have to trust the people that's chosen to engage with your work. 

Dorothy Koomson
Yeah, and, and also you have to trust yourself to do the right thing. Yes. So are you going to write another book? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, that. Do you know what? Because I was gonna be like all secretive. That conversation is happening right now. I didn't think I would want to. But I Am Not Your Baby Mother has shown me that I've got so much more to say that couldn't fit in that book or was left on the cutting room floor, and I'm not precious about the editing process. I'm like, oh, we need to get the word count down, well, whack that bit out, whack that bit out. But what's been whacked out is really good and still really helpful to someone else. So, I think there might be another two or three books in me yet. But again, I'm always gonna, because my career has come in like... almost backwards, so I've grown my social media following first and then brought out books. I don't know, I think I'm gonna feel like I'm playing pretend for a bit because I still do, like when people solely say, oh, the writer Candice Brathwaite, I do screw up my face a bit and I'm like, oh, really? I've only had one book out, don't push it. You know, anyone can write one book. 

Dorothy Koomson
They really can't though. They really can't. No, they can't. I'm telling you they really can't. 

[Mutual laughter.] 

Candice Brathwaite  

I think ... again, black women we're our own worst enemy sometimes because the bar in my head is so high. I'm like, okay, maybe you can say that and I'll feel confident in that on the fifth book. But right now, I'm still like, oh, it could have been just a fluke. I don't know if people will read anything else. Let's see. 

Dorothy Koomson
Take it for someone who's done it 16 times, to do one book and to be, to have it be so successful and so loved is a real achievement. So please don't ever take anything away from it. 

Candice Brathwaite
You're right. I'm working on that, too. And you're right, I'm trying to, when people praise it, I'm just trying to feel good with that. I'm like, thank you. I'll hold on to that. Because this, it's a rhythm. I love this bit now. But if you know, I know that when I'm writing my second, I'll doubt myself again. And I'll have days when I don't wanna sit at my computer because I don't know what I'm doing. So I'll hold on to the good times for now for sure. 

Dorothy Koomson
Absolutely. And just keep, keep going. So how is it working with your husband now? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, you know, I'm probably gonna annoy people, but it's bloody brilliant. And I wish he'd quit years ago because the ability to just get more done and for life to feel smoother now that we work in the same house. Yesterday, he just looked at me and he was like, 'You know, we would never be able to do the stuff you've done in the last three weeks if I was still going to a nine to five.' And I was like, dude, you're telling me! I've been trying to tell you this for a couple of years. But also, from like an ancestral spiritual perspective I'm really excited and encouraged because I just want to build something that, you know, the grandkids or great-grandkids I'll never meet are like, I'm able to do this because grandma and grandpa started this business. And it's a black couple doing something which I think you don't get to see enough. That's not to say that we don't cross words. But for the most part it's been the best decision we've made this year for sure. 

Dorothy Koomson
So, what's next then apart from possibly a new book? Are you going to do a fashion line or something? 

Candice Brathwaite
Oh, my gosh, you're being too spooky now. Do you know what, because someone approached me and they 

were like, oh, we'd love to work with Candice. I thought, no, it's time to shoot my shot and I told my management, could you ask them if I could have like my own lipstick range or a dress line or something? So hopefully. And do you know why I'm gonna say that publicly because I feel like white women who do what I do would have asked for that ages ago, or they would have done it ages ago. 

Dorothy Koomson Yeah, absolutely. 

Candice Brathwaite
And so I, sometimes I do think, oh, you're being too cocky or you're asking for too much. And then I do my white girl litmus test and I'm like, no, you're not. You're not asking for nearly enough. Like, I would love to do something like that, but might be a black thing, more of a moral thing, I'm not in the business of selling people rubbish. So, it would have to be done really well. But fingers crossed. 

Dorothy Koomson
Absolutely yeah, yeah. Something with your name on has got to be done well. 

Candice Brathwaite
But fingers crossed that's the next thing hopefully. 

Dorothy Koomson
Okay. I've got to keep my fingers well crossed for you. And don't you dare quit or stop. You know what? It's really important what you're doing, really important, really important to show a black nuclear family and to show that, you know, a black girl, dark-skinned black girl can be, you know, confident and can talk about fashion. And can you know, talk about all sorts of things, not just the sad stuff or the hurtful stuff or anything, you know. You keep going, please keep going. 

Candice Brathwaite 
I will, I promise. 

Dorothy Koomson
We sound like we're like a support group, aren't we? And I think we are. I think there's nothing wrong with setting up a support group in this sort of way. But really, I'm, do you know, congratulations. Really well done, you've done so amazingly. And I'm really, ... I feel like saying I'm proud of you, but I can't really because I'm not like your mum or anything but I do feel like I'm proud of you for all you've done. 

Candice Brathwaite
Thank you. Thank you so much. Like I said, it's been hard because I've not even heard that from family, you know. It's been the... great opposite, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep trucking along. I think I'll do all right. I'm gonna keep going, I promise. 

Dorothy Koomson
Well, thank you so much. If you want to pick up I Am Not Your Baby Mother it's through all the usual outlets and it's a fantastic read. I think everyone should read it. I do actually believe that. I'm not just saying that because I love Candice. I actually think it's a really, really insightful read and a really insightful look at what it means to be a black woman in the modern world. So, thank you so much, Candice. It's been lovely talking to you. 

Candice Brathwaite
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you to everyone listening. It's been awesome. 

Outro message 

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the Birmingham Lit Fest presents...podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, we’d love for you to tell us about it – leave us a review or a rating and find us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @bhamlitfest. You can download our latest podcast episodes, every Thursday, from all the places you would normally get your podcasts and find transcripts of our episodes in the shownotes and on our website at www.birminghamliteraturefestival.org . Details about our full programme can also be found on our website. Until then, happy reading! 

The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast is curated by Shantel Edwards and produced by 11C and Birmingham Podcast Studios for Writing West Midlands. 

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