Beneath Your Bed Podcast

Beneath Your Bed is devoted to all things mysterious, the paranormal and true crime. Along the way, we we’ll be drinking cocktails and sharing the sordid details of our Appalachia upbringings.

http://beneathyourbedpod.com

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episode 9: Pen Pals With A Killer Clown [transcript]


What happens when a young college freshman tries to infiltrate the minds of notorious serial killers? The answer might surprise you.

Have a topic suggestion? Email us at beneathyourbedpod@gmail.com 


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 2020-12-02  52m
 
 
00:00  Speaker 1
I'm
00:01
Jen
00:01
Lee
00:01
and
00:02
I'm
00:02
Jenna
00:02
Sullivan.
00:03
And
00:03
we'd
00:03
like
00:03
to
00:03
welcome
00:04
you
00:04
to
00:04
beneath
00:04
your
00:04
bed
00:05
a
00:05
podcast
00:06
where
00:06
we
00:06
drag
00:06
out
00:06
all
00:07
those
00:07
fears
00:07
at
00:07
work,
00:08
beneath
00:08
our
00:08
beds
00:09
from
00:09
the
00:09
paranormal
00:10
to
00:10
true
00:10
crime,
00:11
to
00:11
the
00:11
simply
00:11
strange
00:12
along
00:12
the
00:13
way,
00:13
we'll
00:13
be
00:13
drinking
00:13
cocktails
00:14
and
00:14
sharing
00:14
stories
00:15
from
00:15
our
00:15
Appalachian
00:16
upbringings.
00:17
What
00:17
happens
00:17
when
00:18
a
00:18
young
00:18
college
00:19
freshmen
00:19
tries
00:19
to
00:19
infiltrate
00:20
the
00:20
minds
00:20
of
00:20
notorious
00:21
serial
00:21
killers?
00:22
The
00:22
answer
00:23
might
00:23
surprise
00:23
you,
00:30  Speaker 2
Jen
00:30
,
00:30
how
00:30
are
00:30
you?
00:30
I'm
00:31
good.
00:31
How
00:31
are
00:31
you,
00:31
Jen?
00:32  Speaker 1
Great.
00:33
What
00:33
have
00:33
you
00:33
been
00:33
up
00:33
to?
00:34
I'm
00:34
ashamed
00:34
to
00:35
say
00:35
what
00:35
I've
00:35
been
00:35
up
00:35
to.
00:37
It's
00:37
homey
00:38
shopping
00:38
.
00:39
So
00:39
I've
00:39
been
00:39
shopping
00:40
for
00:40
let's
00:41
see,
00:41
I
00:41
bought
00:42
like
00:42
a
00:42
hole
00:43
in
00:43
my
00:43
head.
00:44
It's
00:44
an
00:45
emergency
00:45
Bigfoot
00:46
color.
00:47
Yeah
00:47
.
00:47
So
00:48
that
00:48
like,
00:48
if
00:48
you're
00:48
being
00:49
hunted
00:49
by
00:50
Bigfoot
00:50
,
00:50
you
00:50
can
00:50
call
00:50
for
00:50
help.
00:51
I
00:51
think
00:51
it's,
00:51
if
00:51
you
00:51
want
00:52
to
00:52
attract
00:53
input,
00:55
you'd
00:55
have
00:55
to
00:55
let
00:55
go
00:55
of
00:56
this
00:56
fantasy.
00:58
It's
00:58
this
00:58
a
00:58
child's
00:59
toy.
00:59
And
01:00
it,
01:00
it
01:00
either
01:01
Hells
01:02
it's
01:02
snorts
01:02
or
01:03
it
01:03
can
01:03
also
01:03
like
01:03
grunt.
01:04
Wow.
01:05
I'm
01:05
very
01:05
anxious
01:05
to
01:06
get
01:06
this
01:06
in
01:06
the
01:06
mail.
01:07
I
01:07
truly
01:08
am.
01:08
And
01:08
I
01:09
also
01:09
found
01:09
out
01:09
from
01:09
my
01:09
brother,
01:10
he's
01:10
been
01:11
watching
01:11
a
01:11
lot
01:11
of
01:11
big
01:11
foot
01:12
YouTube
01:12
videos
01:13
that
01:13
the
01:13
region
01:14
that
01:14
our
01:14
family's
01:14
from
01:15
or
01:15
not
01:15
even
01:15
the
01:16
region
01:16
it's
01:16
like
01:17
right
01:17
in
01:18
the
01:18
immediate
01:18
area,
01:19
they
01:19
have
01:19
like
01:20
this
01:20
sanctuary
01:25
sanctuary.
01:27
Yes
01:27
.
01:27
And
01:27
it's
01:27
in
01:27
Norton,
01:28
Virginia,
01:29
which
01:29
is
01:29
news
01:30
to
01:30
me,
01:30
except
01:31
they
01:32
call
01:32
Bigfoot
01:33
the
01:33
wood
01:34
booger
01:34
.
01:35
I've
01:35
never
01:35
heard
01:36
that
01:36
the
01:36
wood
01:37
bugger
01:37
.
01:37
Yeah.
01:37
It's
01:37
called
01:37
the
01:38
wood
01:39
Booker
01:39
sanctuary.
01:40
I
01:40
think
01:40
we
01:40
need
01:40
to
01:40
do
01:41
a
01:41
show
01:41
on
01:41
that.
01:41
Well
01:41
,
01:41
they
01:42
have
01:42
a
01:42
festival
01:43
in
01:43
October.
01:44
I'm
01:44
going
01:44
next
01:45
year.
01:45
I'm
01:45
totally
01:46
down
01:46
for
01:46
that.
01:47
My
01:47
brother
01:47
wants
01:47
to
01:47
go
01:47
really
01:48
badly
01:48
too.
01:48
So
01:49
it
01:49
was
01:49
actually
01:50
on
01:50
animal
01:51
planet
01:51
finding
01:52
big
01:52
foot
01:52
TV
01:53
show.
01:53
That's
01:53
crazy.
01:54
Oh
01:55
my
01:55
gosh.
01:55
That's
01:55
so
01:56
cool.
01:56
So
01:56
there's
01:56
a,
01:57
there's
01:57
actually,
01:57
there's
01:57
a
01:57
geocashing
01:59
trail
01:59
or
01:59
an
01:59
event.
02:00
It's
02:00
the
02:00
Woodbrook
02:01
or
02:01
geo
02:01
trail.
02:02
Oh
02:02
my
02:03
gosh
02:03
.
02:03
I'm
02:03
really
02:03
excited
02:03
about
02:04
this.
02:04
I
02:04
had
02:04
no
02:05
idea.
02:05
That's
02:05
really
02:05
cool.
02:06
That
02:06
maybe
02:06
explains
02:07
a
02:07
lot
02:07
about,
02:08
about
02:09
your
02:09
genealogy,
02:11
why
02:11
you're
02:12
so
02:12
attracted
02:12
to
02:12
it.
02:13
So
02:13
what
02:14
are
02:14
you
02:14
having
02:14
to
02:14
drink
02:14
tonight?
02:16
I'm
02:16
having
02:17
nothing
02:17
super
02:18
fancy,
02:19
but
02:19
you
02:19
know,
02:20
recently
02:20
I
02:20
made
02:20
that
02:20
horrible
02:21
drink
02:22
and
02:22
I
02:22
was
02:22
like,
02:22
I
02:22
can
02:22
not
02:22
have
02:23
a
02:23
repeat
02:23
of
02:23
an
02:24
undrinkable
02:24
.
02:25
I
02:25
made
02:26
a
02:26
meal,
02:27
but
02:27
I
02:27
did
02:27
like
02:27
an
02:27
Apple
02:28
cider
02:28
mule.
02:29
It's
02:29
really
02:29
good.
02:30
So
02:30
it's
02:30
got
02:31
the
02:31
,
02:31
um,
02:31
you
02:31
know,
02:32
I
02:32
put
02:32
rum
02:32
in
02:32
it.
02:33
So
02:33
I
02:33
guess
02:33
it's
02:33
not
02:33
really
02:33
a
02:33
mule.
02:34
It's
02:34
what
02:34
do
02:34
you
02:34
call
02:34
those
02:35
dark
02:35
and
02:35
stormy,
02:36
but
02:36
it's
02:36
not
02:37
gone
02:37
either.
02:38
So
02:38
it's
02:38
just
02:38
it's
02:39
um,
02:39
God,
02:40
what
02:40
kind
02:40
of
02:40
rum
02:40
is
02:40
it?
02:41
I
02:41
can't
02:41
remember
02:41
the
02:42
other
02:42
like
02:42
big
02:42
name
02:43
from
02:43
whatever
02:43
that
02:44
is.
02:44
Is
02:44
it
02:44
my
02:45
Meyer
02:45
?
02:45
Yeah.
02:46
So
02:46
it's
02:46
dark
02:47
rum.
02:47
And
02:48
then
02:48
I
02:48
put
02:48
in
02:49
,
02:49
um,
02:49
I
02:50
haven't
02:50
made
02:50
any
02:50
ginger
02:50
syrup
02:51
because
02:51
I
02:51
thought
02:51
I
02:52
can't
02:52
do
02:52
that.
02:53
I
02:53
can't
02:53
do
02:53
that
02:53
without
02:54
you.
02:54
So
02:54
I
02:55
bought
02:55
some
02:55
of
02:55
the
02:55
store
02:55
and
02:55
it's
02:56
actually
02:56
really
02:56
good
02:56
though.
02:56
It
02:56
has
02:57
the
02:57
sediment
02:57
in
02:57
the
02:57
bottom,
02:58
you
02:58
know?
02:58
So
02:58
when
02:58
you
02:58
shake
02:59
off,
02:59
like
02:59
it's
02:59
like
02:59
good
03:00
stuff.
03:00
And
03:00
then
03:00
I
03:00
have
03:01
lime
03:01
juice
03:02
and
03:02  Speaker 3
Half
03:03
Apple
03:03
cider
03:03
and
03:03
half
03:04
ginger
03:04
beer.
03:04
And
03:05
then
03:05  Speaker 1
I
03:05
just
03:06
started
03:06
up
03:06
and
03:06
put
03:07
in
03:07
some
03:07
ice.
03:07
It's
03:07
really
03:07
tasty.
03:08
That's
03:08
so
03:09
weird
03:09
that
03:09
you
03:09
did
03:10
a
03:10
dark
03:10
and
03:10
stormy
03:11
cause
03:11
I'm
03:11
having
03:11
a
03:11
dark
03:11
and
03:12
stormy.
03:12
No
03:12
way.
03:13
Yes,
03:14
that's
03:14
crazy.
03:15
And
03:15
I
03:15
didn't
03:16
use
03:16
the
03:16
goslings
03:17
rom
03:17
either
03:17
with
03:17
a
03:17
dark
03:18
and
03:18
stormy
03:18
in
03:18
case
03:19
people
03:19
don't
03:19
know.
03:19
I
03:20
think
03:20
it's
03:20
one
03:20
of
03:20
the
03:20
only
03:20
drinks
03:21
that
03:21
if
03:21
you're
03:21
at
03:22
a
03:22
bar
03:22
and
03:22
you're
03:22
serving
03:23
it,
03:23
if
03:23
you're
03:23
serving
03:24
a
03:24
dark
03:24
and
03:24
stormy,
03:24
you
03:24
have
03:25
to
03:25
use
03:26
goslings
03:26
,
03:26
rum,
03:26
you
03:26
have
03:27
to
03:27
use
03:27
it.
03:27
You
03:27
can't
03:27
use
03:28
any
03:28
other
03:28
type
03:28
of
03:29
rum
03:29
because
03:29
there's
03:29
some
03:29
type
03:29
of
03:30
proprietary
03:31
thing
03:31
with
03:31
the
03:31
drink.
03:32  Speaker 3
900
03:33
knew
03:33
that
03:33
until
03:33
you
03:33
told
03:34
me,
03:34
it
03:34
makes
03:34
me
03:34
wonder
03:34
like
03:34
how,
03:35
how
03:35
old
03:35
that
03:36
recipe
03:36
is.
03:36  Speaker 1
You
03:37
know
03:37
,
03:37
how
03:37
long
03:37
that's
03:37
been,
03:38
how
03:38
they
03:38
managed
03:38
to
03:39
pull
03:39
that
03:39
off.
03:39
I
03:40
don't
03:40
know.
03:40
So
03:41
technically
03:41
it's
03:42
not
03:42
a
03:42
dark
03:42
and
03:42
stormy
03:43
cause
03:43
I'm
03:43
not
03:43
using
03:44
goslings
03:44
,
03:44
but
03:44
I'm
03:44
using
03:45
,
03:45
um,
03:46
I
03:46
actually
03:46
have
03:47
one
03:47
I've
03:47
been
03:47
making
03:48
dark
03:48
and
03:48
Stormy's,
03:48
I've
03:49
been
03:49
using
03:49
captain
03:50
Morgan
03:50
spice,
03:50
rum.
03:51
That
03:51
sounds
03:52
delicious.
03:52
The
03:52
ginger
03:53
beer
03:53
is
03:54
lysine
03:54
itself.
03:55
I
03:55
have
03:55
the
03:55
gasoline
03:55
,
03:55
ginger
03:56
beer.
03:56
I
03:56
think
03:56
you
03:56
gave
03:57
that
03:57
to
03:57
me.
03:57
So
03:57
I'm
03:57
using
03:58
that
03:58
tonight.
03:59
So
03:59
it
03:59
has
03:59
rum,
04:00
it
04:00
calls
04:00
for
04:00
an
04:00
ounce
04:01
and
04:01
a
04:01
half
04:01
of
04:01
rom
04:02
and
04:02
then
04:03
a
04:03
half
04:03
an
04:03
ounce
04:03
of
04:03
lime.
04:04
And
04:05
that's
04:05
it.
04:05
And
04:05
the
04:05
ginger
04:06
beer.
04:06
Did
04:07
you
04:07
cook
04:07
?
04:07
Oh
04:07
my
04:08
gosh.
04:08
No,
04:08
I
04:08
forgot.
04:09
I
04:09
don't
04:09
have
04:10
any
04:10
more.
04:10
The
04:10
ginger
04:10
syrup.
04:11
I
04:11
need
04:11
to
04:11
buy
04:12
some
04:12
ginger
04:12
root
04:12
to
04:13
make
04:13
that,
04:13
but
04:13
it's
04:13
super
04:14
yummy.
04:15
Yeah
04:15
.
04:15
So
04:15
we
04:15
make
04:15
our
04:15
own
04:15
ginger
04:16
simple
04:16
syrup.
04:17
So
04:18
we'll
04:18
make
04:18
like
04:18
huge
04:19
batches
04:21
and
04:21
we
04:21
always
04:21
get
04:21
drunk
04:21
or
04:22
doing
04:22
it
04:22
too
04:22
.
04:23
Yes
04:23
,
04:23
we
04:23
do
04:23
.
04:23
It
04:23
makes
04:24
it
04:24
extra
04:24
special
04:25
over
04:25
the
04:25
summer.
04:25
I
04:26
bought
04:26
some
04:27
Appalachian
04:27
ginger
04:28
beer.
04:29
Seriously.
04:30
It
04:30
was
04:30
horrendous.
04:31
Oh
04:31
no,
04:32
it
04:32
tasted
04:32
like
04:32
a
04:32
dirty
04:33
shoe.
04:34
I
04:34
was
04:34
so
04:35
like
04:35
excited
04:35
and
04:36
optimistic
04:36
about
04:36
it.
04:37
My
04:37
hopes
04:37
were
04:37
soon
04:37
dashed.
04:39
As
04:39
soon
04:39
as
04:39
I
04:39
tried
04:39
it,
04:40
it
04:40
was
04:40
terrible
04:42
bad
04:42
plus
04:42
it's
04:42
from
04:42
Appalachia.
04:43
So
04:43
it
04:43
was
04:43
like,
04:44
I
04:44
wanted
04:44
it
04:44
to
04:44
be
04:45
good,
04:45
but
04:45
it
04:45
is
04:45
not,
04:46
I
04:46
do
04:46
not
04:46
recommend
04:47
it
04:47
at
04:47
all.
04:48
So
04:49
what
04:49
are
04:49
we
04:49
talking
04:49
about
04:49
tonight?
04:50
My
04:51
story
04:51
is
04:52
a
04:52
story
04:52
of
04:52
Jason
04:54
Moss.
04:54
And
04:54
other
04:55
than
04:55
me
04:55
telling
04:55
you
04:55
that
04:56
was
04:56
going
04:56
to
04:56
be
04:56
the
04:56
subject
04:57
of
04:57
my
04:57
story
04:58
tonight.
04:58
Do
04:58
you
04:59
know
04:59
anything?
04:59
No,
05:00
I
05:00
have
05:01
not
05:01
yet
05:01
.
05:01  Speaker 3
She
05:01
has
05:01
to
05:01
look
05:01
up
05:02
in
05:02
fact
05:02
I
05:02
didn't
05:02
want
05:02
to
05:03
cause
05:03
I
05:03
wanted
05:03
to
05:03
be
05:03
surprised,
05:04
but
05:04
that
05:04
name
05:05
means
05:05
nothing
05:05
to
05:05
me.
05:06  Speaker 1
I
05:06
remember
05:06
the
05:06
story
05:07
because
05:07
I
05:07
watched
05:08
his
05:08
interviews
05:09
years
05:09
ago
05:10
and
05:10
then
05:11
I
05:11
actually
05:11
watched
05:12
a
05:12
movie
05:13
in
05:13
2010
05:14
about
05:15
it.
05:15
So
05:15
I
05:15
thought,
05:16
well,
05:16
I
05:16
can
05:16
go
05:16
off
05:17
most
05:17
of
05:17
this,
05:18
you
05:18
know
05:18
,
05:18
from
05:18
my
05:18
memory.
05:19
And
05:20
I
05:20
thought,
05:20
well,
05:20
at
05:20
the
05:20
same
05:21
time,
05:21
I
05:21
still
05:21
need
05:21
to
05:22
go
05:22
back
05:22
and
05:22
research
05:23
it.
05:23
And
05:23
then
05:23
of
05:23
course
05:24
researching
05:24
it.
05:25
It's
05:25
always
05:25
those
05:26
stories
05:26
that
05:26
you
05:26
think
05:26
that
05:27
aren't
05:27
going
05:27
to
05:27
be
05:28
that
05:28
in-depth,
05:29
or
05:29
that
05:29
much
05:30
detail
05:30
that
05:30
turn
05:30
out
05:30
to
05:31
be
05:31
just
05:31
rife
05:32
with
05:32
all
05:32
sorts
05:33
of
05:33
details
05:34
and
05:34
nuances
05:35
and
05:35
that
05:35
sort
05:35
of
05:35
thing.
05:36
I
05:36
actually,
05:37
while
05:37
I
05:37
was
05:37
researching
05:38
and
05:38
decided,
05:38
Oh,
05:38
okay,
05:39
well
05:39
I'll
05:39
go
05:39
ahead
05:39
and
05:40
get
05:40
this
05:40
book
05:40
by
05:41
this
05:41
Jason
05:42
Moss.
05:42
And
05:42
that
05:43
took
05:43
me
05:43
further
05:43
down
05:43
the
05:43
rabbit
05:44
hole.
05:44
So
05:45
let
05:45
me
05:45
take
05:45
a
05:45
drink
05:47
and
05:47
I
05:48
will
05:48
try
05:48
to
05:48
begin
05:49
from
05:49
the
05:50
start.
05:50
I
05:50
am
05:50
sitting
05:51
here
05:51
in
05:52
rapt
05:52
anticipation
05:53
in
05:53
1993,
05:56
there
05:56
was
05:56
this
05:56
18
05:57
year
05:57
old
05:58
honor
05:58
student
05:59
named
05:59
Jason
06:00
Moss.
06:00
And
06:00
he
06:00
went
06:00
to
06:01
the
06:01
university
06:01
of
06:02
Nevada,
06:02
Las
06:03
Vegas.
06:04
And
06:04
he
06:05
was
06:05
a
06:05
risk
06:06
taker
06:06
in
06:07
a
06:07
lot
06:07
of
06:07
ways.
06:08
And
06:08
he
06:08
was,
06:09
you
06:09
know,
06:09
in
06:09
some
06:09
ways
06:10
he
06:10
was
06:10
addicted
06:10
to
06:10
adrenaline.
06:11
And
06:11
he
06:11
also
06:13
reported
06:13
that
06:13
when
06:14
he
06:14
went
06:14
to
06:15
college,
06:15
he
06:15
was
06:15
disappointed
06:16
and
06:17
he
06:17
was
06:17
disappointed
06:17
because
06:17
he
06:18
felt
06:18
like
06:18
it
06:18
was
06:18
just
06:18
an
06:19
extension
06:19
of
06:19
high
06:19
school.
06:20
So
06:20
he
06:21
didn't
06:21
see
06:21
it
06:21
as
06:21
any
06:21
more
06:22
challenging
06:22
than
06:22
high
06:22
school.
06:23
And
06:23
he
06:23
was
06:23
a
06:23
really,
06:24
really
06:24
smart
06:25
kid.
06:25
He
06:26
was
06:26
a
06:26
young
06:26
man,
06:26
but
06:27
he's
06:27
18.
06:27
So
06:28
I'm
06:28
still
06:28
going
06:28
to
06:28
call
06:28
him
06:29
a
06:29
kid.
06:29
And
06:29
he
06:29
was
06:29
very,
06:30
very
06:30
smart.
06:31
And
06:31
he
06:31
had
06:31
a
06:31
little
06:32
bit
06:32
of
06:32
an
06:32
unusual
06:33
voice,
06:33
I
06:33
think
06:34
a
06:34
little
06:34
bit
06:34
of
06:34
an
06:34
unusual
06:35
upbringing.
06:36
So
06:36
Jason's
06:37
mom,
06:37
she
06:37
was
06:37
really
06:37
into
06:38
true
06:38
crime.
06:39
She
06:39
wouldn't
06:39
let
06:39
him
06:40
read
06:40
it,
06:40
but
06:40
she
06:41
would,
06:41
you
06:41
know,
06:41
when
06:41
he
06:41
was
06:42
older,
06:42
I
06:42
don't
06:42
think
06:42
he
06:42
was
06:43
like,
06:43
you
06:43
know,
06:44
really
06:44
young.
06:44
But
06:44
she,
06:45
when
06:45
they
06:45
went
06:45
to
06:46
the
06:46
public
06:46
library,
06:46
evidently
06:47
they
06:47
went
06:47
there
06:47
a
06:47
lot.
06:48
She
06:48
would
06:48
say,
06:49
Hey
06:49
Jason,
06:50
can
06:50
you
06:50
believe
06:50
this?
06:51
The
06:51
serial
06:51
killer
06:52
may
06:52
a
06:52
belt
06:53
made
06:53
out
06:53
of
06:53
nipples.
06:54
And
06:54
he
06:54
remembers
06:55
that
06:55
distinctly
06:55
because
06:56
he
06:56
remembered
06:56
being
06:57
embarrassed
06:57
by
06:57
that
06:57
in
06:57
the
06:57
public
06:58
library,
06:59
Cod's
06:59
poor
06:59
kid.
07:00
So
07:00
he
07:00
was
07:00
also
07:01
into
07:01
kickboxing.
07:02
He
07:03
was
07:03
like
07:03
a
07:03
weightlifter.
07:04
He
07:04
was
07:04
really
07:04
into
07:04
kickboxing.
07:05
He
07:05
was
07:05
very
07:05
fit.
07:06
And
07:06
I
07:07
believe
07:07
while
07:07
he
07:08
was
07:08
waiting
07:09
either
07:09
to
07:09
go
07:09
to
07:09
kickboxing
07:10
or
07:10
maybe
07:11
afterward,
07:12
he
07:12
went
07:12
into
07:12
this
07:13
bookstore
07:13
that
07:13
was
07:14
next
07:14
door.
07:14
And
07:15
he
07:15
started
07:15
perusing
07:16
the
07:16
true
07:16
crime.
07:17
And
07:17
he
07:17
came
07:17
across
07:18
hers
07:18
.
07:18
This
07:18
one
07:18
book
07:18
that
07:19
caught
07:19
his
07:19
interest.
07:20
And
07:20
of
07:20
course,
07:20
mind
07:21
you
07:21
he's
07:21
18.
07:22
So
07:22
now
07:22
he
07:22
can
07:22
read
07:23
pretty
07:23
much
07:23
what
07:23
he
07:23
wants.
07:24
And
07:24
when
07:25
he's
07:25
looking
07:25
through
07:26
the
07:26
true
07:26
crime
07:26
section,
07:27
he
07:27
sees
07:28
this
07:29
book
07:29
called
07:30
the
07:30
killer
07:30
clown,
07:31
which
07:31
was
07:31
about
07:31
the
07:32
serial
07:32
killer,
07:32
John
07:33
Wayne
07:33
Gacy.
07:34
And
07:34
Jason
07:35
had
07:35
always
07:35
been
07:35
afraid
07:35
of
07:36
clowns
07:36
when
07:36
he
07:36
was
07:36
a
07:36
child.
07:37
And
07:37
he
07:37
actually
07:38
had
07:38
this
07:38
reoccurring
07:39
nightmare
07:40
involving
07:41
a
07:41
clown
07:41
and
07:42
his
07:42
grandmother
07:43
being
07:43
killed.
07:43
So
07:44
it
07:44
caught
07:44
his
07:44
interest
07:45
in
07:45
,
07:45
he
07:46
buys
07:46
the
07:47
book
07:47
and
07:48
he
07:48
hatches
07:49
this
07:49
plan
07:50
for
07:50
his
07:50
honors
07:51
thesis
07:52
that
07:52
he
07:52
would
07:52
become
07:53
pen
07:53
pals
07:54
with
07:55
serial
07:55
killers.
07:55
Now,
07:56
what
07:56
was
07:56
he
07:56
studying
07:56
in
07:57
college?
07:57
I
07:57
mean,
07:57
what
07:57
was
07:57
his
07:58
major?
07:58
I
07:58
believe
07:59
it
07:59
was,
07:59
it
07:59
was
07:59
either,
08:00
I
08:00
think
08:00
it
08:00
was
08:00
either
08:01
criminal
08:01
justice
08:02
or
08:02
it
08:02
was
08:02
psychology.
08:03
Okay.
08:04
So
08:04
he
08:05
wanted
08:05
to
08:05
actually
08:06
go
08:06
into
08:07
like
08:07
law
08:07
enforcement,
08:08
like
08:08
FBI
08:10
and
08:10
,
08:11
um,
08:11
FBI
08:12
and
08:12
secret
08:12
service.
08:13
And
08:13
I
08:13
think
08:13
he
08:13
did
08:14
internships
08:14
at
08:15
least
08:15
for
08:15
the
08:15
secret
08:16
service.
08:17
So
08:17
that's
08:17
how
08:17
he
08:17
was
08:17
going
08:18
to,
08:18
you
08:18
know,
08:18
that's
08:19
where
08:19
his,
08:19
that
08:19
was
08:19
his
08:20
career
08:20
goal.
08:21
So
08:21
for
08:22
his
08:22
thesis,
08:22
his
08:22
honor
08:23
thesis,
08:24
he
08:24
decides
08:25
that,
08:25
that
08:25
there
08:26
hasn't
08:26
been
08:26
enough
08:26
research
08:27
to,
08:27
this
08:28
is
08:28
a
08:28
quote
08:28
from
08:28
him
08:29
and
08:29
this
08:29
is
08:29
in
08:29
his
08:29
book
08:30
and
08:30
it
08:30
was
08:30
also
08:31
co-written
08:31
or
08:32
co
08:32
the
08:33
coauthor
08:33
was
08:33
Jeffrey
08:34
Kotler
08:34
,
08:34
who
08:35
was
08:35
one
08:35
of
08:35
his
08:35
psychology
08:36
professors.
08:37
And
08:37
the
08:37
name
08:37
of
08:37
the
08:38
book
08:38
,
08:38
Jeffrey
08:39
Kotler
08:39
.
08:39
I've
08:39
heard
08:39
the
08:39
name
08:40
I
08:40
thought
08:40
I
08:41
had
08:41
too
08:41
,
08:42
but
08:42
there's
08:42
probably
08:43
a
08:43
lot
08:43
of
08:43
collars
08:43
,
08:44
but
08:44
anyway,
08:44
he
08:45
decided,
08:45
you
08:45
know,
08:45
he
08:46
and
08:46
his
08:46
book
08:47
with
08:47
Jeffrey
08:48
Kotler
08:48
,
08:48
the
08:48
last
08:48
victim,
08:49
a
08:49
true
08:49
life
08:49
journey
08:50
into
08:50
the
08:50
mind
08:50
of
08:51
a
08:51
serial
08:51
killer.
08:52
Jason
08:53
stated
08:53
that
08:54
the
08:54
more
08:54
that
08:54
he
08:54
read
08:54
about
08:55
serial
08:55
killers,
08:56
the
08:56
more
08:56
convinced
08:57
that
08:57
he
08:57
became
08:58
that
08:58
the
08:58
so-called
08:59
experts
09:00
and
09:00
the
09:00
police
09:01
and
09:01
forensic
09:02
psychologists
09:02
that
09:03
they
09:03
weren't
09:04
exploring,
09:04
like
09:04
all
09:05
the
09:05
avenues
09:05
of
09:05
inquiry.
09:07
And
09:07
he
09:07
said
09:08
that
09:08
he
09:08
wondered
09:08
what
09:09
kind
09:09
of
09:09
an
09:09
effort
09:10
had
09:10
been
09:10
made
09:10
to
09:11
debrief
09:11
the
09:11
victims.
09:12
Those
09:12
who
09:13
had
09:13
lived
09:13
to
09:13
tell
09:14
the
09:14
tale.
09:14
So
09:15
at
09:15
this
09:15
point
09:16
you
09:16
could
09:16
probably
09:17
surmise,
09:17
or
09:18
you
09:18
might
09:18
be
09:18
thinking
09:18
to
09:18
yourself
09:19
that
09:19
he's
09:19
pretty
09:19
cocky
09:20
in
09:20
a
09:20
,
09:20
in
09:21
a
09:21
sense
09:21
that
09:21
he's
09:22
like,
09:22
well,
09:22
that
09:23
all
09:23
these
09:23
so-called
09:23
experts,
09:24
they
09:24
haven't
09:24
looked
09:25
at
09:25
this
09:25
and
09:26
you
09:26
know,
09:26
he
09:26
was
09:26
going
09:26
to
09:26
set
09:27
out
09:27
and
09:27
he
09:27
was
09:27
going
09:27
to
09:27
do
09:27
it.
09:28
It
09:28
takes
09:28
that
09:28
cockiness
09:29
though,
09:29
to
09:29
get
09:29
something
09:30
done.
09:30
Yeah.
09:30
And
09:31
maybe
09:31
cocky
09:31
is
09:31
not,
09:32
let's
09:32
say
09:32
self-assured,
09:33
you
09:33
know,
09:33
I
09:33
don't
09:34
want
09:34
to
09:34
be
09:34
negative
09:34
here.
09:35
This
09:35
just
09:35
say
09:35
self-assured
09:36
so
09:36
he's
09:36
young,
09:37
he's
09:37
smart.
09:37
He's
09:37
,
09:37
self-assured,
09:38
he's
09:38
curious.
09:39
And
09:39
he's
09:39
a
09:39
risk
09:40
taker.
09:40
And
09:41
he
09:41
began
09:41
to
09:42
research
09:43
extensively
09:44
about
09:45
all
09:45
the
09:45
killers
09:46
that
09:46
he
09:46
became
09:46
pen
09:47
pals
09:47
with.
09:47
So
09:47
that
09:47
included
09:48
John
09:48
Wayne
09:49
Gacy,
09:49
of
09:49
course,
09:50
Richard
09:51
Ramirez,
09:51
who
09:51
was
09:52
the,
09:53
he
09:53
was
09:53
also
09:53
called
09:54
the
09:54
night
09:54
stalker.
09:54
So
09:55
he's
09:55
different
09:55
than
09:55
the
09:55
original
09:56
night
09:56
soccer
09:57
that
09:57
Michelle
09:58
McNamara
09:58
wrote
09:59
about.
09:59
Yeah.
10:00
He
10:00
was
10:00
heavily
10:00
into
10:01
the
10:01
cold
10:01
and
10:01
Satanism
10:02
and
10:03
he's
10:03
a
10:03
creepy
10:03
dude.
10:04
Oh,
10:04
really
10:04
creepy.
10:05
Some
10:05
of
10:05
the
10:06
other
10:06
serial
10:07
killers
10:07
that
10:07
he
10:07
reached
10:08
out
10:08
to
10:08
and
10:09
corresponded
10:09
with
10:09
was
10:09
Charles
10:10
Manson.
10:10
And
10:10
then
10:11
also
10:11
Jeffrey
10:12
Dahmer.
10:12
Oh
10:13
my
10:13
God.
10:13
He
10:13
really,
10:14
he
10:14
really
10:14
got
10:14
them
10:15
all.
10:15
And
10:15
I
10:15
remember
10:16
like
10:16
93,
10:17
that
10:17
was,
10:17
I
10:17
think
10:18
that
10:18
was
10:18
when
10:18
the
10:18
Jeffrey
10:18
Dahmer
10:19
thing
10:19
came
10:19
out
10:20
because
10:20
I
10:20
remember
10:20
being
10:21
overseas
10:21
and
10:22
hearing,
10:23
you
10:23
know,
10:23
that
10:23
there
10:23
had
10:23
been
10:23
this
10:24
terrible
10:24
serial
10:24
killer
10:25
captured.
10:25
Well,
10:26
if
10:26
he
10:26
wrote
10:26
to
10:26
Dahmer,
10:27
it
10:27
probably
10:27
had
10:28
maybe,
10:29
maybe
10:29
90
10:29
is
10:29
maybe
10:30
around
10:30
the
10:30
time
10:30
it
10:30
happened
10:30
with
10:31
Dahmer.
10:31
Cause
10:31
you
10:31
have
10:31
to
10:32
remember
10:32
he
10:32
had
10:32
been
10:32
in
10:33
prison
10:33
for
10:33
a
10:33
few
10:33
years,
10:34
I
10:34
think
10:34
before.
10:35
Yeah.
10:35
Before
10:36
he
10:36
started
10:36
riding
10:36
him.
10:37
So
10:38
Jason,
10:38
he
10:38
researched
10:39
extensively
10:40
about
10:40
these
10:40
killers.
10:41
He
10:41
learned
10:41
as
10:41
much
10:42
of
10:42
course
10:42
about
10:42
their
10:42
crimes,
10:43
but
10:43
also
10:44
their
10:44
upbringings
10:45
and
10:45
their
10:45
personalities.
10:46
And
10:46
he
10:46
really
10:46
thought
10:47
about,
10:47
you
10:47
know,
10:47
what's
10:48
gonna
10:48
set
10:48
me
10:48
apart
10:49
from
10:49
other
10:50
people
10:50
that
10:50
are
10:51
writing
10:51
these
10:51
serial
10:51
killers
10:52
because
10:52
John
10:52
Wayne
10:52
Gacy,
10:53
he
10:53
would
10:53
get
10:53
hundreds
10:54
of
10:54
letters
10:54
each
10:54
week.
10:55
We
10:55
had
10:55
a
10:55
lot
10:55
of
10:55
them
10:56
from
10:56
women.
10:57
So
10:57
he
10:57
really
10:57
thought
10:57
about
10:58
what
10:58
would
10:58
appeal
10:58
to
10:58
them.
10:59
And
11:00
he,
11:01
because
11:01
of
11:01
his
11:01
fascination
11:02
with
11:02
clowns,
11:03
he
11:03
took
11:03
a
11:03
particular
11:03
interest
11:04
in
11:04
cultivating
11:05
relationship
11:06
with
11:06
Gacy.
11:07
And
11:07
if
11:07
you,
11:08
I
11:08
think
11:08
almost
11:09
everybody
11:09
knows
11:09
about
11:10
John
11:10
Wayne
11:10
Gacy,
11:10
but
11:11
just
11:11
a
11:11
quick
11:12
brief.
11:13
Um,
11:13
and
11:13
he
11:13
was
11:13
known
11:14
as
11:14
a
11:14
killer
11:14
clown
11:14
and
11:15
he
11:15
was
11:15
known
11:15
as
11:15
that
11:15
because
11:16
he
11:16
was
11:16
this
11:17
upstanding
11:17
citizen
11:18
who
11:19
in
11:19
his
11:19
community,
11:20
you
11:20
know
11:20
,
11:20
he
11:20
often
11:21
dressed
11:21
up
11:21
as
11:21
a
11:21
clown
11:22
and
11:22
met
11:22
with
11:23
sick
11:23
children.
11:24
Or
11:24
he
11:24
went
11:24
to
11:24
other
11:24
events.
11:25
I
11:25
mean,
11:25
he
11:26
didn't
11:26
go
11:26
to
11:26
every
11:26
single
11:26
event
11:27
as
11:27
a
11:27
clown,
11:27
but
11:29
certain
11:29
things
11:30
c
11:30
ause
11:30
he
11:30
was
11:30
a
11:30
businessman
11:31
businessman
11:32
and
11:32
he
11:32
was
11:32
very
11:32
successful.
11:33
And
11:33
at
11:33
that
11:34
time
11:34
I
11:34
know
11:34
that
11:34
about
11:35
Gacy.
11:35
I
11:35
don't
11:35
know
11:35
a
11:35
lot
11:36
about
11:36
him
11:36
except
11:36
the
11:36
clown
11:37
business.
11:38
Yeah.
11:38
He,
11:39
at
11:39
that
11:39
time
11:40
he
11:40
was,
11:40
he
11:41
had
11:41
a,
11:41
he
11:41
had
11:42
a
11:42
construction
11:42
company
11:43
and
11:43
he
11:43
was
11:43
pulling
11:43
in
11:43
like
11:44
$300,000
11:45
a
11:45
year.
11:45
So
11:45
this
11:45
is
11:45
in
11:46
the
11:46
seventies,
11:47
i
11:47
n
11:47
the
11:47
seventies,
11:47
$300,000
11:48
a
11:48
year
11:49
was
11:49
a
11:49
lot
11:50
of
11:50
money.
11:50
W
11:50
hat's
11:50
a
11:50
lot
11:50
of
11:51
money
11:51
today
11:51
for
11:52
a
11:52
,
11:52
you
11:52
know,
11:52
s
11:53
omeone
11:53
salary.
11:53
I
11:53
think
11:54
so
11:54
Gacy
11:55
was
11:56
responsible
11:56
for
11:56
the
11:57
m
11:57
urders
11:57
of
11:58
33
11:59
young
11:59
men.
12:00
This
12:00
was
12:00
in
12:00
the
12:01
Chicago
12:01
area
12:02
and
12:02
he
12:02
buried
12:03
almost
12:03
all
12:04
of
12:04
his
12:04
victims
12:05
underneath
12:06
his
12:06
house,
12:07
in
12:07
the
12:07
crawl
12:07
space
12:07
.
12:08
And
12:08
these,
12:09
his
12:10
victims
12:10
were
12:11
actually
12:11
kids
12:12
anywhere
12:12
from
12:13
anywhere
12:13
from
12:13
14
12:14
years
12:14
old
12:14
to
12:15
early
12:15
twenties.
12:16
And
12:16
they
12:17
kind
12:17
of
12:17
fit
12:17
the
12:17
profile
12:18
one,
12:18
you
12:19
know,
12:19
being
12:19
within
12:19
that
12:19
age
12:20
range,
12:20
but
12:20
they
12:21
were
12:21
all
12:21
fit.
12:22
They
12:22
were
12:22
all
12:22
very
12:22
fit.
12:23
So
12:23
you
12:23
wonder
12:24
how
12:24
this
12:25
guy
12:26
who
12:26
was
12:26
really
12:26
out
12:26
of
12:26
shape,
12:27
who's
12:27
overweight,
12:28
how
12:28
would
12:28
he
12:28
overpower
12:29
these
12:29
young,
12:30
these
12:30
fit
12:30
young
12:30
men?
12:31
And
12:31
so
12:31
what
12:31
he
12:32
would
12:32
do
12:32
is
12:33
he
12:34
would
12:34
do
12:34
this
12:34
thing
12:35
called
12:35
the
12:35
handcuff
12:35
trick.
12:36
Hey,
12:36
you
12:36
want
12:36
to
12:36
see
12:36
a
12:37
trick
12:37
with
12:37
the
12:37
handcuffs
12:38
and
12:38
who
12:38
put