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episode 5: Podcast Predictions for 2021 with Steve Pratt, Partner at Pacific Content. [transcript]


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 2020-12-28  21m
 
 
00:02  James
Welcome to Podland.
00:04
Podland is sponsored by bud sprouts,
00:04
the premier podcasting host, and a
00:08
whole lot more there on buzzsprout.com.
00:11
It's Thursday, December the 31st 2020.
00:14
I'm James Cridland the editor
00:14
of pod news here in Australia.
00:17  Steve
I'm Sam Sethi the editor of Sam
00:17
Talks Technology here in the UK and
00:22
I'm Steve Pratt from Pacific content.
00:23
And later.
00:24
I'll be talking about
00:24
predictions for 2021.
00:27  James
He will.
00:28
And in fact that we're doing that
00:28
right now, 10 years ago, I first met
00:32
Steve Pratt while he was running CBC
00:32
radio three or station playing new
00:37
Canadian music from Vancouver in Canada.
00:40
A few years later, he left.
00:42
Am I wondered why?
00:44
It turns out he'd left to start
00:44
up a business that helps brands
00:48
tell stories on podcasts.
00:50
Steve is co-founder of Pacific content.
00:54
One of the cleverest Podcast companies
00:54
out there, and every year Pacific
00:58
content posts, an eagerly awaited blog,
00:58
post the predictions for podcasting.
01:04
For the next
01:05  Steve
year, we'd gather all these
01:05
predictions from all sorts of different
01:08
people across the Podcast industry.
01:11
And it's really interesting because
01:11
most of these people are running.
01:15
Companies are in senior roles and they're
01:15
in different areas of the business.
01:19
And so when you kind of see
01:19
all these things in aggregate,
01:22
they're pretty accurate.
01:23
Like, cause these are people like this.
01:24
This is where my area of
01:24
the, of the world is going.
01:27
Um, or these are the things that I'm
01:27
seeing, or these are the things we're
01:30
planning on doing in the year ahead.
01:32
They're eerily accurate.
01:33
I'm I'm kind of not surprised
01:33
by the Spotify piece.
01:37
Knowing that some people from Spotify
01:37
and things were actually part of the
01:41
people making predictions last year, your
01:43  James
compilation got that, right.
01:45
Uh, obviously consolidation,
01:45
although you didn't need to be
01:47
Einstein to work out that there'll
01:47
be rather more consolidation,
01:51  Steve
which is, um, I think both of those
01:51
trends are back for this year as well.
01:55
So it's a consolidation shocker.
01:58  James
Yes.
01:58
Who'd have thought.
01:59  Steve
Although, my favorite thing
01:59
from this year, uh, around the
02:02
consolidation piece, I think it was from.
02:04
Fellow Australian Sharon Taylor at
02:04
Omni studio, basically saying like, I
02:09
we're kind of running out of companies
02:09
for people to buy at this point.
02:12
Like at some point there'll be.
02:15  James
Yeah, I think so one of the other
02:15
things that you spotted last year, it
02:19
was, or you predicted last year was
02:19
major new players entering the industry.
02:23
And I think Amazon music was
02:23
the biggest major player, I
02:27
guess, entering podcasting.
02:30
Um, How'd you think Amazon music's going
02:32  Steve
well?
02:33
It's interesting.
02:33
I think part of it, uh, depends on what
02:33
happens with the rumors of whether they're
02:38
acquiring Wondery, uh, immediately or not.
02:41
Um, I mean, I think it, it takes a long
02:41
time for anybody to change behavior
02:47
patterns and lots of people are used
02:47
to certain Podcast ops or certain.
02:52
Services that they use.
02:53
I think they were, they're gonna have
02:53
to do some pretty interesting stuff to
02:55
get people to change behaviors, but in
02:55
terms of growing new audience members
02:59
or introducing them to podcasts like
02:59
men, like our, our, our whole business
03:04
is, uh, is kind of based on working
03:04
with brands, um, and helping them turn
03:08
into media companies are thinking,
03:08
act like media companies by making
03:11
shows and learning how to market them.
03:13
And one of the things we always
03:13
do is think about what are the,
03:16
what are the superpowers that
03:16
brands have to be able to market.
03:19
Shows or kind of grow
03:19
the overall industry.
03:22
I can't think of, you know, many companies
03:22
that have more superpowers than Amazon.
03:27
If they decide to want
03:27
to push into a space.
03:28
I certainly wouldn't bet against them
03:30  James
now.
03:30
Uh, Amazon, we're the largest
03:30
advertiser in the world.
03:34
In 2021, which I thought was interesting.
03:38
And also here's an interesting
03:38
fact that I learned the other week,
03:42
the entire size of the Australian
03:42
economy is smaller than Amazon.
03:47  Steve
Was that on your
03:47
citizenship test should have been.
03:52
Yeah.
03:53
What do you think about it?
03:54  James
It should be interesting
03:54
seeing what happens with Amazon.
03:57
It's not in Canada yet.
03:58
Is it?
03:59  Steve
It is.
04:00
Um, or it is, if it's not, it
04:00
is very close to being it's it's
04:04
either here or coming, so yes.
04:06
Yeah.
04:06
Hmm.
04:06
I am surprised a little bit, like, I
04:06
feel like there are huge opportunities,
04:11
you know, I think, I think last year
04:11
we said like, you know, I would not be
04:13
surprised to see bigger efforts from
04:13
companies like Facebook or LinkedIn
04:18
or Twitter or something like that.
04:20
And for all of those companies,
04:20
I'm still kind of surprised.
04:25
That there hasn't been anything in there.
04:27
When you think about the opportunities
04:27
for these companies that have
04:30
targeted advertising options, to be
04:30
able to like introduce a medium that
04:37
you can use when the screen is off
04:37
and provide advertising solutions
04:41
that the industry is looking for.
04:43
Um, it still seems like a.
04:45
Maybe it's not a big enough industry
04:45
for them yet, which sounds crazy.
04:48
Uh, but maybe that's the piece,
04:48
but I'm surprised that some of them
04:53
haven't entered into the audio space.
04:54  James
There's always been this
04:54
sort of thing around audio, not
04:57
necessarily being as sexy as video.
05:00
Uh, so I, I wonder whether that is
05:00
a worry to companies who are getting
05:04
into a space that doesn't sound
05:04
sexy enough for their investors.
05:07  Steve
I dunno.
05:08
Like I, I mean, I got to say, as we're
05:08
wrapping out a pretty surreal year, Audio
05:13
has been really resilient and it's been,
05:13
you know, remarkably good for remote
05:19
production where we can produce really
05:19
high quality stuff without having to have
05:23
people gather in the same place together.
05:26
And it's the, the amount of time and
05:26
engagement that audio provides compared
05:32
to almost every other medium that is
05:32
kind of moving more into kind of short
05:36
attention span that you can still get.
05:39
Huge completion rates
05:39
on long shows and audio.
05:43
It still feels pretty great to me,
05:43
for anybody who's thinking about it.
05:47
I, and if they haven't come around to
05:47
it, I feel I do kind of feel like it's
05:50
a little bit inevitable that people
05:50
are going to have the light turn on
05:53
at some point in the near future.
05:55
I think you're right.
05:56  James
The one thing that you missed
05:56
last year was of course, nobody
05:59
said that there would be a global
05:59
pandemic, which was a mistake.
06:02
So there we are, uh, this time around you
06:02
have consolidated the various thoughts
06:10
of the great and good from the industry,
06:12  Steve
including yourself.
06:13
Thank you so much.
06:14  James
Oh, well, thank you.
06:15
It was a, it was a great pleasure to be
06:15
asked, um, into four different themes, um,
06:20
consolidation, uh, new content strategies,
06:20
tech innovation, and diversity.
06:27
And there's look at
06:27
consolidation for a bit.
06:29
Cause I mean, obviously there is
06:29
consolidation still about to happen, but
06:33
it probably in a bit of a different way.
06:36
It was interesting seeing Bob
06:36
Pittman from iHeart radio talking
06:40
about the importance of scale.
06:42
I mean, he would say that wouldn't,
06:42
he is one sort of side of it, but
06:46
how important do you see scale,
06:46
you know, large businesses?
06:52
Getting involved in this space
06:52
consolidating with smaller companies.
06:56
How important is scale, do you
06:56
think to where podcasting is going?
07:00  Steve
I wish I w I mean, I'm sure
07:00
everybody in podcasting wishes this,
07:03
but I wish I was in the boardrooms
07:03
of some very big companies right
07:08
now, hearing how they're thinking
07:08
about the future of podcasting.
07:12
I've mentioned this in the article,
07:12
you and I have talked about it.
07:15
There's this the most fascinating
07:15
podcast interview that I listened to
07:19
this year around audio strategy was an
07:19
episode that had the head of R and D
07:25
of Spotify talking about where they're
07:25
going in their different strategies.
07:29
His name was, uh, Gustaf Soderstrom,
07:29
and it was just really fascinating
07:33
to think about where the.
07:35
Power of having kind of like the F a
07:35
full stack of, of all the different
07:39
Podcast technologies and the pieces
07:39
of the Podcast puzzle to be able to
07:43
create a unique and differentiated
07:43
user experience or where you can create
07:48
innovation or where you can create
07:48
better business results for advertisers.
07:53
Like I know there's like a huge
07:53
tension between open and closed
07:57
and podcasting as it started.
07:58
And as an long celebrated
07:58
as an open ecosystem.
08:02
I love the open ecosystem.
08:04
I love the democratization of, of being
08:04
able to produce and distribute out there.
08:09
But it's, you know, if you kind
08:09
of want to hear about the point of
08:12
view of consolidation and why it's
08:12
important for moving things forward.
08:17
Fantastic interview.
08:18
And I think there's a lot of companies
08:18
that are, you know, if I think about
08:22
Sirius XM with Pandora and simple
08:22
cast and Stitcher, and AdsWizz.
08:28
It feels like you're kind of building out
08:28
everything from the same sort of strategy.
08:32
And I'm guessing same with iHeart and
08:32
Vox nest and the content that they've
08:36
acquired over the last couple of years.
08:39
You kind of want hosting, you want
08:39
content, you want an app, you want ad
08:44
serving, you want metrics, the whole deal.
08:47
And when you have all of those, I think
08:47
that's where interesting innovation on
08:52
the user experience is going to be the
08:52
strategies of, of how they're going to
08:54
experiment in the next several years.
08:56
And that'll be, I think, where I'm
08:56
interested to see where they take Podcast.
08:59  James
Yeah, I think you're right.
09:00
And I think, you know, that
09:00
that consolidation now is.
09:04
Not necessarily, you know, one
09:04
large company buying another large
09:07
company, but actual companies
09:07
buying a portfolio so that they have
09:11
everything from the technology to
09:11
the content, to the ad sales and
09:16
everything else that they actually need.
09:18
And you can so clearly see that in
09:18
Sirius's case, you know, as one example.
09:24
So, yeah.
09:25
Who do you think we'll get wondering.
09:27  Steve
I don't know if I have any insight
09:27
into it other than I, you know, I probably
09:30
everything I get, I read in pod news.net.
09:33
Um, so I really don't like, I don't, I
09:33
don't have any insights into it other
09:38
than, you know, I, I, I think you're
09:38
the last place I, I, uh, first and
09:44
last place that I read that it's, uh,
09:44
inexclusive negotiations with Amazon.
09:47
So we'll see, uh, it would be,
09:47
uh, that'd be a big game changer.
09:51
I get there instantly a
09:51
player if they do that.
09:53  James
Yeah, I think so.
09:54
It was interesting looking at Paul tracks
09:54
data, which came out recently, which
09:59
had a bunch of information around the
09:59
most popular new podcasts of this year.
10:05
And 10 out of the top
10:05
20 were from wandering.
10:09
So they are a massive, massive company.
10:11
When you look at the amount of listens
10:11
that they get, but you also look at the
10:15
very capable way that they can launch
10:17  Steve
new shows.
10:18
They're the best marketers.
10:19
I know too.
10:20
Like I got to say, they
10:20
like, they make great shows.
10:23
They know exactly who their audience is.
10:24
They know what their, their sweet spot
10:24
is for the type of shows they make.
10:28
And they market them really, really well.
10:30
And they use their existing audience
10:30
really, really well in terms of like
10:34
using the network to cross promote and.
10:36
Yeah, there's it's, it's just
10:36
a really well, well done.
10:40  James
Yeah.
10:40
It'll be really interesting seeing
10:40
whether Amazon are buying it because of
10:44
their prowess in podcasting or whether
10:44
Amazon are actually buying Wondery
10:47
because of the IP that they own, that
10:47
they can then turn in terms and prime
10:51
content, uh, and other things as well.
10:53
But, uh, fascinating to watch.
10:55  Steve
What is interesting?
10:55
One of the predictions in here is, uh,
10:55
from Hernan Lopez, the CEO of wonder,
11:00
he talking about the importance of
11:00
diversity of revenue, streams for
11:03
podcasting and how twenty-five percent
11:03
of wonders revenue is coming from TV,
11:07
audio, and book licensing, as well as
11:07
direct summer segment for Wondery plus.
11:12
So, yeah, certainly for an Amazon,
11:12
if you're, if you've got Amazon
11:16
prime and you're looking for
11:16
an IP pipeline, Wondering would
11:20
be a pretty good bet there too.
11:21
I think
11:22  James
one of the things you talked
11:22
about was new content strategies, um,
11:26
and particularly, you know, uh, firstly
11:26
there's, you know, crying out for
11:31
different types of content, but also, uh,
11:31
very much focusing on short form content,
11:36
which is a, a subject close to my heart.
11:38
Given that I make a podcast that's about
11:38
four minutes long, every single day.
11:43
That does really well on the
11:43
places where podcasts don't.
11:46
So things like smart speakers
11:46
in particular, which are the
11:48
biggest consumption method of
11:48
listening to the pod news podcast.
11:53
It's very good.
11:54
What's your sort of thoughts around short
11:54
form content, where you work at Rogers,
11:58
which is a big Canadian broadcaster that
11:58
makes a lot of short form content as well,
12:03  Steve
kind of obsessed with
12:03
short form audio right now.
12:06
So my.
12:08
COVID obsession has been tick talk.
12:10
I've just been fascinated by the
12:10
growth of it and seeing my kids use
12:14
it and I've kind of dug into it.
12:15
And it's just really, really
12:15
fascinating to have a something
12:20
that is so friendly for creators
12:20
and so many easy ways to create.
12:25
You know, I think that the phrase
12:25
I heard in one of the podcasts I
12:28
listened to about this year was,
12:28
you know, that they've solved the
12:30
blank canvas problem for creators.
12:33
And I think one of those issues is the
12:33
fact that it's short and they've got
12:35
the ability to jump on memes and do at
12:35
other creators and do dances, whatever.
12:40
Like there's so many easy ways to do that.
12:43
And it feels like audio.
12:45
It doesn't have that yet.
12:46
And it feels almost inevitable in a way.
12:49
I think another one that I, it just
12:49
may have been a 16 Z as well, but like
12:52
talking about how the camera on the
12:52
phone unlocked video creation for places
12:57
like tech talk and Snapchat and the
12:57
microphone really should be unlocking
13:02
everybody's phones into a creation device.
13:04
Also, if you have the right creator
13:04
tools to make it easy and fun.
13:08
So I, I, it feels like that to me is
13:08
just something I'm super excited about.
13:12
Yeah.
13:13
The other really weird thing.
13:14
And I mentioned this in the blog post,
13:14
but I, I love Sam Harris's meditation
13:19
app called waking up and they introduced
13:19
this weird thing this year, where you
13:23
can just sign up for these things called
13:23
moments and randomly during the day.
13:28
You agree to have a notification on
13:28
your phone and just this things as
13:30
like there's a new moment and you tap
13:30
on it and it's less than a minute.
13:34
And just like this little mindfulness
13:34
prompt or an insight, or just something to
13:38
think about has been kind of delightful.
13:41
And I think I've been thinking just
13:41
about how many uses there are for really
13:46
short things in audio that I would be
13:46
quite grateful for and be excited about.
13:52
And then, you know, I think the
13:52
other piece is just thinking.
13:56
As we are all time challenged, you know,
13:56
and to your point, like smart speakers,
14:00
I'd be just really curious to hear what
14:00
I, a feed of short form stuff that is
14:05
not like not 30 minute shows, you know,
14:05
30 seconds to five minutes or something
14:10
like that, what that would actually
14:10
sound like and whether we would actually
14:13
enjoy listening to that or not, uh, But
14:13
I think there'll be some experimentation.
14:19
The weird thing is that people
14:19
have experimented with this and
14:22
it just hasn't gone anywhere yet.
14:24
You know, Twitter was first audio anchor
14:24
was first kind of short form audio.
14:29
And that, you know, Google
14:29
acquired this company called 60 DB.
14:32
That was specializing in short form audio.
14:35
I remember even when Pacific content
14:35
started like six years ago, you
14:38
know, we would do a full show in may.
14:39
It was kind of a magazine show.
14:41
You know, for slacker or Shopify and they
14:41
would have five or six stories in them
14:46
and we put it out as a full episode, and
14:46
then we would have like a single servings
14:50
feed of just the short form stuff.
14:52
And we made a couple short form.
14:53
Podcast seem to make lots of
14:53
sense different at the time.
14:58
And it never like there, there was no
14:58
tech talk like explosion of this stuff.
15:01
So yeah.
15:02
I wonder if the, if a bunch of that
15:02
stuff is too early and maybe it'll be.
15:05
Coming soon.
15:06  James
Yeah.
15:06
Maybe I saw something from there,
15:06
the NPR station in Chicago, which
15:12
again, just takes individual stories
15:12
from one of their shows that they do.
15:15
It's their sort of major
15:15
morning show the idea of that.
15:19
Nice.
15:20
Book-ended short form content that,
15:20
I mean, to be honest, would fit
15:24
really well in a Spotify playlist.
15:26
Yeah.
15:26
And I think that's one of the
15:26
difficulties with the Spotify
15:29
playlist that I see is that, you
15:29
know, you've got a couple of your
15:32
favorite tunes followed by a 45 minute.
15:36  Steve
Yeah, exactly.
15:36
Yeah.
15:37  James
Yeah.
15:37
About something or other.
15:38
No, that's not, that's not,
15:38
that's not, that's not a thing.
15:42  Steve
Here's my favorite song of tech
15:42
talk and then three hours of Joe Rogan.
15:47  James
Exactly.
15:48
Exactly.
15:49
And by the way, Joe Rogan is another
15:49
really good example that I am
15:52
beginning to give now, now of Podcast
15:52
apps that haven't got it yet, where
15:57
they're still promoting Joe Rogan to
15:57
audiences in spite of the fact that
16:02
there's no Joe Rogan on open RSS.
16:05
Podcasting anymore.
16:06
There's one show
16:07  Steve
that's awkward,
16:08  James
but anyway, let's not get there.
16:09
Let's talk about tech innovation,
16:09
because that's another part of the
16:13
prediction blog posts that you wrote.
16:16
There's lots of tech innovation going on.
16:18
I think my contribution
16:18
to that was to point it.
16:21
Um, Adam Curry and, uh, Dave Jones
16:21
who are doing some Sterling work with
16:26
the Podcast index and particularly
16:26
the Podcast, the podcasting namespace
16:30
adding additional functions to.
16:33
Podcasting in time.
16:34
I wonder how many of those will actually
16:34
take off or whether we'll all be consuming
16:39
podcasts in Spotify, in the future.
16:42  Steve
It's interesting.
16:42
Like I, you know, we talked about a
16:42
little bit about the, some of these
16:46
companies trying to consolidate and.
16:48
Likely build closed ecosystems.
16:51
I feel like there is a, there, there are
16:51
going to be multiple different Podcast
16:55
industries in a way going forward.
16:56
And one of them will still be a very
16:56
thriving, open Podcast community.
17:00
And, you know, Adam Curry coming back
17:00
into the spaces like the, the original
17:04
pod father, um, with Dave Weiner who
17:04
kind of made this whole universe coming
17:08
back into this, this gets exciting.
17:09
And I feel like podcasting is still, you
17:09
know, I, I know this is a bit silly to
17:14
say with all the hundreds of millions.
17:15
Being spent on it, on the, all these
17:15
acquisitions, but it still feels like a
17:19
relatively small industry that is still
17:19
relatively young and there's still the
17:22
opportunity to experiment and invent the
17:22
future of it in a lot of different ways.
17:27
And some of them are going to be
17:27
closed experiments and some of
17:29
them are going to be really fun and
17:29
exciting and smart, open experiments.
17:34
And I I'm, I'm just
17:34
really happy to see it.
17:36
It's fun.
17:36
I think that's a very good point.
17:37
One of the other themes that came
17:37
out from all these industry leaders
17:40
is not just short form, but just
17:40
experimentation with different types of.
17:44
Uh, formats of shows and I feel, yeah.
17:47
You know, to your point, like, I
17:47
don't think anybody wants to just
17:50
here, this is what a podcast is.
17:53
Uh, and that there's so much
17:53
creative ground that is still
17:56
fertile and, uh, and, and farmed.
17:59
Um, Laura Meyer, who's just,
17:59
I love her, her writing and,
18:04
and point of view on stuff.
18:06
She's one of the co-founders
18:06
of three uncanny for really
18:08
interesting podcasting company.
18:10
Just the way she wrote about new formats.
18:14
It was like, it got you excited.
18:16
Hearing her the way that she writes
18:16
about it, uh, like the first four
18:19
words are like entirely exclamation
18:19
Mark, new exclamation, Mark sounding,
18:23
exclamation, Mark stuff, exclamation Mark.
18:26
Um, there's a lot of
18:26
hunger to go try stuff.
18:29
And I think that is going to lead to
18:29
some really, I think it's going to be
18:32
a really fun, like, it's your point?
18:33
Fun year in 2021 for this stuff.
18:36
And yeah, even to the point of saying
18:36
like, 2020, like good riddens for so many
18:44
reasons, but it was a really heavy year.
18:46
And so much of that was really consumed
18:46
by like a lot of very, very important and
18:51
very, very well done news and information
18:51
and current affairs programming
18:55
across a wide variety of like, just.
18:57
Enormously important issues.
19:00
A big theme that came up was like, there's
19:00
going to be a counter reaction in 2021.
19:06
And we are going to be focusing
19:06
on escapism or things that are
19:09
a little bit lighter or more
19:09
fun or playful or creative.
19:11
They're still going to be a lot
19:11
of really important journalism and
19:13
work covering big media issues.
19:15
But we'll see where, whether the
19:15
tone or the trends move into a
19:18
different universe a little bit.
19:21
You know, as, as, as a trend for 2021,
19:23  James
where can people go to find
19:23
out more about, uh, Pacific content
19:28
and the other work that you do?
19:29  Steve
Uh, Pacific hyphen content.com.
19:32
Do
19:32  James
you own the version
19:32
without the hyphen?
19:33  Steve
Sadly, no.
19:34
Uh, when we were, when we first
19:34
started, it was one of those things.
19:37
It was like, it was a company that
19:37
wasn't even using it, but it was still
19:40
something like $10,000 to buy it.
19:43
And we're just anyways.
19:45
What are you going to do?
19:46
What are you going to do?
19:47
Um, yeah, just Google Pacific content.
19:50
It's all good.
19:50
All right.
19:51
And the blog
19:51
is@blogdotpacifichyphencontent.com.
19:55
If you want to see the
19:55
predictions piece, uh, it's huge.
19:58
It's, it's, it's ridiculously long,
19:58
but there's so many smart people with
20:02
smart thoughts that are better than
20:02
anything I've been able to share.
20:05
Verbally with you here today.
20:06  James
And of course, you'll find
20:06
that in the show notes as well
20:08
and reported recently, along with
20:08
many of the other blog posts that
20:13
you produce@podnews.net as well.
20:16
Steve, thank you.
20:17  Steve
Hey, thank you.
20:18
It's great to talk to you
20:18
at that's it for this week.
20:21
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20:21
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20:32
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20:32
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20:35  James
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20:35
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21:04
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