Welcome to Podland.
Podland is sponsored by Buzzsprout,
the premier podcasting host, and a
whole lot more there on buzzsprout.com.
It's Thursday, December 17th, 2020.
I'm James Cridland the editor
of podnews here in Australia.
And I'm Sam Sethi.
the editor of Sam Talks
Technology, here in the UK.
And I'm Galen Beebe from
the Bella Collective.
And later I'll talk about the 100
outstanding podcasts from 2020.
Kate Bradley Chernis from Lately.ai.
And later I'll be talking about automatic
social marketing for your podcast.
Podland is a weekly podcast
where Sam and I delve deeper into
the week's most important news,
which I cover daily at podnews.net.
Let's start by saying, sorry, because on
the podcasting 2.0 podcast, Adam Curry
heard last week's episode, where we were
talking about the new podcast namespace.
I'm a little bit irked
James Cridland @podnews.net.
He has a podcast called
the pod news podcast.
but there's that?
And then he's got a
new one called Podland.
I don't know when I was listening
to maybe it was Podland and all of a
sudden he's like stealing our material.
He's doing hot namespace talk.
It's like a horning in
on our business, Dave.
So maybe we should
leave the boom Chicka.
Namespace, talk to Adam and Dave.
Anyway, there'll be on next
week to tell me off in-person.
I look forward to that now.
The big story this week I felt
was about podcast misinformation.
There was a great report out in the
guardian, by the journalist Ariel Bogle.
She's a journalist and analyst at the
Australian strategic policy Institute
and she researches online disinformation.
She was questioning whether
podcasts are becoming.
The new dangerous content space,
social networks this week seem to be
in the crossfire of every government.
Twitter was fined in Ireland.
Facebook's been asked to label
things because of misinformation.
And Ariel was really asking, is it time
that podcasts were looked at as well?
we've had Steve Bannon basically
coming out with claims that aren't true
We've had Joe Rogan this week,
hosting Alex Jones, who was
banned from Spotify, but then he
invited him as a guest on Spotify.
James, do you think that podcasts
will become in the crossfire or our
podcasts to be treated differently
than social media networks?
I think it's really interesting.
So us rules are basically that
if you do stuff on the internet
then you can have anything on the
internet, but pull things down.
If you discover that they're bad.
Reactive moderation such as
that is basically the rule that
most of the internet runs on.
So internet providers, and that
includes podcast hosts are basically
there Not as publishers, they don't
sit there and check every single
thing that goes on their network.
They're really there.
Like the postal service So it's
very difficult to all of a sudden
turn around and say yes, but
podcast hosts should be really.
Careful about some of the
stuff that they put on there.
Having said that you can look at it from
the other side and you can say a podcast
host is aware that there's something
which is fairly unpleasant on their
service, then they should take it down.
And that will be a good thing
for them to end up doing.
And, probably not to my credit someone
contacted me about four months or so ago.
And they were really concerned
about a podcast that they had found
on one of the big podcast hosts.
And they said, is this the sort of
podcast that really should be there?
And it was from the UK.
It was deeply racist, deeply
unpleasant all kinds of things about
all kinds of races were on there.
And I thought that's really interesting.
I brought it up with the podcast
host and the podcast hosts said
there's our terms of service.
You should go and read them.
And I went to read them and I said, but
are you saying that your comfortable
keeping this material up there?
And they said, yes our terms of service
and that's literally all that they've
said, it's still there by the way.
And can they just hide behind the terms
of services that is that acceptable?
I mean to a point, so you've
got, of course you've got, , the
American first amendment, which
essentially is all about free speech.
But it doesn't actually include podcast
hosts because podcast hosts are run
by companies and companies can make
a decision as to whether or not they
want stuff like that on their service.
This particular podcast host
clearly does want to take money.
From really unpleasant racists.
And it's very disappointing
that they're still doing that.
And to my embarrassment, I've
not made a full story about it.
I've not covered who that podcast host is.
Primarily because I suspect
that it's happening on every
single podcast host out there.
I suspect that there's really
unpleasant stuff out there.
And I think that may be, is part of what
Ariel's talking about here that actually.
This sort of thing is all over the place.
And, we should probably be a little
bit better as people in the industry of
actually taking some of this stuff off.
But then that instantly moves into
you're censoring people and, it's
against my first amendment rights
and the rights of free speech, which
don't exist, but, it's against all
of that staff and everything else.
And so it becomes a very,
quite unreligious conversation.
05:47 . Sam
I wonder whether it's also
part of section two 30 because Trump
really got his knickers in a twist.
I know he does normally, but he clearly
got his knickers in a twist when Twitter
started labeling his tweets as false.
And also then Facebook suddenly
got a backbone and decided to
join the gang and start to label
some of the stuff that was there.
Clearly they realized Trump was
leaving office and they were safer.
But given that he's trying to, as
his leaving gift removed, section two
30 it would make Facebook, Twitter,
and other social networks liable
for the content they publish now.
I wonder whether that will extend
to podcasting and podcasting
hosts or podcasts as themselves.
Because if there isn't that safe
Harbor, that's required to allow
you to say what you want to say.
Then you will be open.
Right now, Steve Bannon's war rooms still
stating that the Merican general election
was rigged, that the ballots were,
dumped And he's getting away with it.
And should that be allowed?
06:50 , James
and I think there's a difference
between just people being wrong.
Everybody has the right to be
wrong if you see what I mean.
the reason why Bannon was taken
off Twitter was he was advocating
violence against somebody else.
And that's not a good thing.
He may have been doing that as a joke,
who knows But I think there's a real
difference in between the U S view of,
free speech against everything else.
And freedom is the most important thing,
and I'm not going to wear a mask I'm
just gonna, kill myself, nobody else.
And most of the rest of the world
who do understand that there
is, a role for regulation and
they role for the government and
for other people in authority.
Actually to an extent
telling us what to do.
And I wonder whether
it's a cultural thing.
Like wearing a seat
Wear a seatbelt or, any
number of other things, wear a mask.
Think it's a difficult conversation.
It begins to be a cultural conversation.
It begins to be a legal conversation.
And obviously at the end of the
day, it's completely unrealistic
to expect any online service
to have to pre moderate stuff.
That goes on there services,
with the amount of new material
that's posted onto Facebook.
Onto Twitter every single day.
Nobody's going to sit there
first and moderate that before
you press the OK button.
So it just gets difficult and you
then just push this sort of stuff
into the underground as well.
It's going to be fascinating.
What happens with that in 2021?
Apple is in charge of what goes into
Apple podcasts at the end of it.
Spotify is in charge of what goes into
Spotify podcasts in the end of it.
And that's one of the questions I think,
around the podcast index is that they are
deliberately saying, no, we don't do that.
Potentially means that the podcast index
gets used for all kinds of nasty things.
And we just need to be aware of that.
I think, and work out
what we do with that.
I'm going to make a prediction.
I don't think Joe Rogan will
survive 2021 with Spotify.
Joe, Rogan's a whole extra
barrel of fish, so to speak.
It'll be really interesting seeing
what happens with Joe Rogan.
And that's just going to be
really fascinating watching.
His first show that he put
out he attacked transgender
and the Spotify staffers were
horrified by what he put out.
And his basic response was two fingers
back to Spotify saying you have no
rights over my editorial control.
So fundamentally I think he's
going to be very controversial.
And I don't know how the tension
between Spotify as corporate.
Brand and Joe Rogan's
brand it's a public
limited company as well.
From that point of view that's
important to bear in mind.
So , it's going to be really interesting
seeing what happens in terms of Joe Rogan.
Okay, moving swiftly on the bellow
collective has published its hundred
outstanding podcasts for 2020 James.
What's the Bellow Collective.
An interesting question.
This is the fifth annual list of the
100 outstanding podcasts from 2020.
I wasn't sure either.
So I had a quick chat with
Galen Beebe, Bello Collectives.
Co-editor about the list and
about the bellow collective.
The Bella Collective is a digital
publication about the podcast industry.
We publish podcasts, criticism,
reported pieces about the industry
op-eds profiles, playlists, resources
for podcast, creators, a newsletter
every other week, that kind of stuff.
a hundred outstanding podcasts.
It's chosen by a ton of great people.
It's been quite a year as well.
Particular themes that you
have spotted in that list,
washing the Bella 100,
which is what we affectionately
call it for five years.
And this was our most of the
moment list that we've published.
So I can't tell you exactly how
many episodes really on the list
were about COVID or about black
lives matter, but it was a lot of
them and a lot of them were also.
About politics, especially
in the US this year.
And then there were also a lot of
shows that aren't directly about COVID
like field recordings or home cooking,
which were two shows that were created
during the pandemic and in response
to the pandemic, but aren't, science
news documentary about the pandemic.
So one of our writers was listening
through to many episodes on the list
and noted that this is the year where.
A lot of the shows already feel dated.
Which is interesting because normally
we want a playlist essentially that
you will be able to listen to him,
that we want to continue to resonate
and be evergreen in a certain way.
But this was just a year that's so
particular that I would guess that
the majority of the podcasts are.
Extremely up this moment.
What I like about your list
is that I don't recognize too many of
the shows that have been recommended.
There's no nice white parents
or that's a great show.
There's no, Joe Rogan, is
that a very deliberate thing?
Do you look for those voices that maybe
haven't had coverage in other media?
It's a balance for us,
definitely between, a lot of us
enjoy really highly produced.
Well-resourced big name shows,
and we do want to lift those up.
But at this point there are
a lot of year-end lists.
And so I don't think it really
serves readers to just see
the same shows over and over.
Part of our mission is helping
people to discover new shows.
And so we don't exactly have requirements
for our contributors, but we have strong
encouragement to put a lot of independent
shows, a lot of shows from outside the U
S because we are a US-based publication,
so that could easily dominate.
call it a best of list.
We're not saying these are
the best shows of the year.
We are saying these shows are
doing something outstanding.
And so we still really want to make sure
that we're surfacing that for a reason.
And I noticed quite a lot of
podcasts in the list that as you
say, weren't from the U S or weren't
even in the English language.
Almost a third of our list.
32% of our list this year was shows.
From outside the U S I believe
that's our highest number yet.
And so we always invite people
from outside of the collective
to contribute to the Bella 100.
And this year we really made it a
priority to invite people from around
the world and people who really know the
podcast really well in their regions.
We don't require them.
To recommend shows from their particular
region, but that is an expertise.
And so we strongly encourage it.
And we were really glad that
people came through with that.
Like you said, we are an English
language publication, but we had
Spanish speaking contributors.
We have Spanish speaking writers on
staff who listened to shows in Spanish.
contributions in Spanish.
And we have eight, which I think is
pretty good for an English language
publication, with a hundred shows.
And we included the recommendations
in both English and Spanish.
And so that was, yeah, that was something
we were very proud of this year.
Galen, thank you
so much for your time.
Thank you for having
Now I've got some more listening to
do over Christmas and new year's.
Now, moving on the we talked
about them in episode two.
they are the awards from
the podcast Academy.
They closed on the 15th of December.
Did you enter James
I did enter I've entered obviously
for pod news being the best news podcast.
So clearly no competition in that category
then it's going to be really interesting.
, I'm looking forward to that.
I think we've got two big award
ceremonies in the U S early next year.
We've got the iHeart radio podcast
awards which are happening in January.
Virtually and then in, I believe March
is when the ambitions are announced.
I know that it's going to be a good
ceremony because I've heard that podcast
movement are working on it and podcast
movement do know what they're doing.
So that should be really good.
And it'll be interesting seeing
who's flasher who makes the industry.
Appear as big as the industry is.
And and fingers crossed.
I'll be there picking up my award,
although frankly, I would doubt it.
15:11 . Sam
Now you've got a chance, James.
And luckily I didn't go in
the same category as you.
I did enter as well, but I've
gone for the technology category.
Maybe both of us will
commiserate with each other.
, maybe both of us have just
wasted a hundred dollars.
Now we've invested a hundred
dollars into the podcast Academy.
That's what we've done.
Good luck to us both
You covered a really interesting story
today about music streaming is stalling.
Why do you think music streaming
stalling, and what does that
got to do with podcasting?
What does it have
to do with podcasting?
So this is an article
in billboard magazine.
And we'll use to be a music
economists, both for PRS, for music
in the UK, and then for a Spotify
in the U S and he's got all of the
numbers and he's a very bright man.
And he has pointed out that.
Pretty well from mid-July the
amount of music, audio streaming
has not been increasing.
So the growth has stalled and
that's probably a bad thing.
And the question that he asks
is podcasting replacing it.
Is there more podcasts
listening than in July?
We've got the data showing that.
Are people consuming more
audio overall, quite possibly.
Is music streaming a casualty of that?
It'll be interesting seeing won't it.
So I wonder whether that's pointing
out, Spotify is plan and maybe
Spotify, his plan is to have more
people using their service but to
have to pay less for the music.
Who knows, but , some really interesting
data coming out of billboard.
again, one of my predictions for
2021 is that Netflix will by Spotify.
That's a prediction.
It's very easy.
If you have a look at the board
members of both Spotify and Netflix,
it's not exactly a hard one.
I'm currently reading a new
book, which comes out in January,
it's called the Spotify play.
And it's all about the history of Spotify.
And it's absolutely fascinating.
I didn't realize that Spotify
started doing podcasting in 2015.
That was a long time ago.
Really interesting reading it because
you get an idea and understanding
of, what has been firing up Spotify
and why they're in the game.
, really interesting book.
I interviewed Faisal Galleria,
their international development director.
Who's now left about
the growth of Spotify.
Daniel used to work for him at
Skype before he started Spotify.
And then he took Pfizer with him.
We will see whether I'm right
or wrong now, Moving forward,
Miguel and sounds profitable.
Release the pod scape.
I noticed that you were in there.
Is it a map of Portland?
Is it a map of Portland?
I think it might be.
So sounds pod news is
weekly ad tech newsletter.
It's written by a very bright man called
Brian Barletta who understands this
space this week in sounds profitable.
She'll find, it sounds profitable, calm.
He talks about all of the
technology, which is involved in
monitoring podcasts, listening.
Some of it's quite scary from a
privacy point of view and all of that.
And what the pod scape is it's a visual
landscape of the podcast industry.
So you can see all of the
different companies in each of
the different areas of podcasting.
And it's a great thing.
Version one, launched
a couple of weeks ago.
It didn't have a section
And I said to Brian, about this whole pod
scape thing, how about getting something
in there so that pod news can be in there.
And so he's done that,
which is really good of him.
So version 1.1, one is available.
You can go and download it.
You'll find a link to
Now, one of the stories that did
peak my interest was the story about the
podcast taxonomy consortium, which was a
group of 43 companies getting together.
And they've posted the first
white paper proposing stuff.
descriptions in podcasting.
So we are still
a very young industry.
podcasting hasn't been going on for
a long time and because the industry
is very us focused, it means that
there's been this sort of cultural.
Difference between the U S between
Canada, between the UK Australia.
And so actually knowing what
somebody does from their job
description is really difficult.
And so what the podcast taxonomy
consortium has done is they've
produced a, essentially a list of jobs.
What the difference is between a
technical director and an audio engineer.
For example, apparently there is
one who knew So pod jobs, which is
a free jobs, website for podcasting
will shortly be supporting the full
taxonomy for all jobs listed, as
soon as I get adjacent file of it.
So looking forward to doing that,
but I think it's just a really handy
thing so that we can all be using
the same language when we're talking
about what it is that we do and
who it is that we're looking for.
by chance, I've reached
out to Daniel Rosenberg.
Who's now going to tell us more
about the podcast, taxonomy Daniel.
My name is Daniel Rosenberg.
I'm the head of business
development for staff Mia.
That staff me up.com.
We like to think of ourselves as
the LinkedIn for media production.
So it's a place where you can go to staff
up your TV shows your digital projects.
It's a place where you can
go to find gigs to find work.
And we've been around for almost two
decades and something that we noticed
a couple of years ago, organically.
A lot of people were posting podcast
production positions on staff,
Mia, looking for podcast producers,
looking for assistance, looking for
audio mixers and sound engineers.
And we didn't have the structure on staff
Mia to highlight that a position was
specifically for the podcast industry.
We're mostly focused on digital
and television feature film.
And we saw a job posting go out
from one of the major studios in LA
in the U S and so I got in touch and
said, look, I would love to stop by.
I would love to hear a little
bit more about why a traditional
TV studio is posting podcast
positions on staff meet up.
And went over and spoke with
three of the women who have joined
this initiative, consequently.
And we started to have a conversation
about it and they said, look
we're having a bit of a problem.
We've used staff me up for 15 years.
We come from television and we're
posting positions with very specific
job descriptions, looking for producers.
And the people that are applying the
credits say that their producers, but it
doesn't map to traditional TV positions.
So we're not sure if we should be
calling these positions by a different
name to attract the right kind
of people who have the experience
within the podcast industry.
And so we started to go through defining
a couple of the positions and then.
basically what we thought of in that
meeting was maybe we can just come up
with a legend or some sort of a list of
positions and have the map to the same
positions in traditional television.
And the first thing I did was called
Arielle, who I've known for a couple
of years now and said what do you think
about this second thing I did was call
the guys at pod chasers, spoke with Cole,
Raven and said we should team up on this.
And then nothing happened.
And then fast forward, six months later
had another conversation about it.
And we were like, , this is a great idea.
And there's a need for this, there's
a problem that needs to be solved
and then nothing happened again.
And then six months later, we had
one more conversation about it.
And that was the first conversation
where I started to hear from Cole and the
team at pod chaser that it wasn't just
a problem when trying to staff people
for a podcast production, it was also an
issue with people adding their credits.
And you can do that on pod chaser.
And so some people are
putting executive producer.
Some people are putting five
credits because they did all
five jobs for one podcast.
That there was more than just a need for
the taxonomy of hiring people, but also
recognizing people and crediting people.
And so that's when we decided
to really make this happen.
We knew that in order for us to
do this successfully, we needed to
make sure that we didn't have an
overwhelming amount of blind spots.
We need to do be inclusive
and include people from.
All different parts of the industry
from different backgrounds from
backgrounds from different countries.
Not only for quick adoption, but also
so that we could do something that
is representative of our community.
And we all got on the phone and
started, contacting, I say the
phone, like we dial the phone.
Got out there and we started
reaching out to our networks and
explained what the opportunity was.
and everyone was excited about it.
From huge companies from small companies,
people independently working in the
industry, some people in traditional
television, people in the podcasting
world we created a private Slack channel
community where everyone's sharing
ideas and collaborating and we're
starting to build this little community.
And I think it's going to
turn into something more.
Think we're going to continue to
evolve podcasts, taxonomy, but I also
think it's going to be a group that's
going to work together to solve.
new problems come up with new ideas.
And since launching a couple of
days ago, we've received about 25 30
different requests from people wanting
to get involved with version 2.0
from all over the world from Brazil
and France, and people wanting to
translate this into different languages.
Think it's really good early
signal and we'll see where it goes.
How did you get involved in this?
And what's your role?
I'll introduce myself, my name's
Ariel and this and Blatt, and I am
the community manager at squad cast.
I also have been running a podcast
newsletter for a few years, which is
how I got started in the podcast space.
I actually was running a podcast studio at
a coworking space when Daniel and I met,
he was Working at the coworking space.
So I was his go-to person for
podcast questions at the time.
And what happened was that he returned
from this meeting with the NBC folks
and he pitched the question to me,
Is this something that
people are thinking about?
And I said, yes, very much because while
running the podcast studio, I came across
a lot of people who were wondering,
after we record who does this go to?
Like what does an engineer do?
What does a script writer do specifically
when it comes to this kind of podcast?
And so that was definitely
something I was thinking about.
What I've done since is I consult
on podcasts and people are always
wondering, after you're done
recording, where does the show go?
Does it need to go to a fact,
checker is a fact checker and
official role, that kind of thing.
And I'm finishing up right now a semester
of learning audio, documentary skills in
Portland, Maine, and this is definitely
a question there when it comes to radio
and podcast production, it is absolutely
something that needs to be defined.
And I think more more than
just defining it'll help when
it comes to giving credits.
And I think that is huge because as
podcasts become more mainstream and
are feeding into IP intellectual
property, we definitely need to
know who did what and credit those
people appropriately and accordingly.
So my role, I guess I'd say right
now I'm running the Twitter.
I'm having a good time with that.
And we're getting nothing but
positive feedback on the Twitter.
It has been lovely.
You have a question.
What's the Twitter handle to help.
We're having a good time on there.
I retweet most things.
So please do give us a tag.
Dave over at pod chaser.
How did you get roped in by Daniel?
How did he bring you into the fold?
26:45 . Dave
So I'm Dave Connie, I'm
the head of product and marketing
over here at pod chaser.
And to just bring you up to
speed on what pod chaser is.
We're like the IMDP of podcasting.
On top of ratings and reviews and lists
and metadata for podcasting we also
track North of 8 million podcast credits.
So hosts guests, producers, all of that.
So as Daniel mentioned, we're
often Inundated with users
adding credits to our site.
And, there's a different name for
every single position out there.
So we've saw a need for a standard
taxonomy to come into play for
what exactly is this position?
So we have a moderation process
that reviews every credit
submission but we needed a rubric
to determine exactly, is this what
an executive producer actually is?
Daniel reached out to Cole.
I came into the fold when we
got a little bit further down
the line and we needed to.
We have a list of positions.
Let's start to call them.
We're coming from the video industry
where we're coming from podcasting.
Let's try to bring down and consolidate
let's bring down our descriptions
and really what that did is set
the stage for our community to
come in and react to something.
So rather than having everybody raise
their hands and start suggesting
everything and kind of making it a
mess It was really important that we
started with a kind of rubric kind of
spreadsheet that they can react to.
That allowed us to add a bunch
of new positions that allowed
us to Cole positions that
allowed us to edit descriptions,
So that was extremely important when we
When it came down to kind of brass tacks
put together the white paper and the the
website so that we can bring that in.
And to Ariel's point, we've gotten a lot
of positive feedback from everybody in
the community, and it's actually brought
more people into the podcast, taxonomy
fold to contribute, to collaborate.
And I think that's really what this is
all about is, This isn't something that
comes from staff me up in pod chaser.
This is something that is really
coming from within the industry.
And we have people from
We have independent creators.
We have people on the marketing
side, people on the admin side and
really what it is we're just trying
to professionalize everything.
We're trying to solve the issue with
standardized and credits and standardizing
job descriptions, as we're getting.
People on board We definitely have
an eye towards inclusion and making
sure that, if this is going to be a
standard, that it represents everybody.
And I think that's extremely
important for what we do doing here.
So how many roles have you created?
Obviously I've read the white paper.
I forgot to count it by the way.
So maybe you can remind me.
29:29 . Dave
I believe we
have, 43 roles right now
And when you create these
roles were any left on the cutting
floor, people argue, I know
we're not having one of them.
We're not having that role.
That doesn't make sense.
29:41 . Arielle
We had a lot of
iterations of this discussion.
So I think initially we brainstormed
the core group and then we put
it out to the larger group.
Where we choose specific where we
not specific enough is a video editor
different from a video assistant video
editor, and we ultimately made decisions
that we think are representative of The
largest amount of people, how most people
are using these names and classifications.
People who work in the podcast space.
Love working in the podcast space.
And I feel like that's a sentiment that
extends all over and people just want to
improve this space and make it one that
reaches further reaches more people.
And I think that is the spirit
that brought so many people to
want to be part of this initiative.
I think it's important to
realize that, Podcasting is big media
But it's going to grow so much more.
We're still in the first,
what, 15 years of podcasting.
If this was television, we probably
wouldn't have color TV yet.
So this is something that is really
Important to everybody in podcasting,
because it helps us to grow as a medium
and kind of a high tide lifts all boats.
So I think that's why you're
seeing buy-in from people from
across the industry in a variety of
companies, in a variety of positions
one of the things that
I hear about all the time is how
people that are true podcast people.
Whenever they're working with someone
from traditional TV or film that are
coming into the podcasting space.
They're like they don't get
it, or, They have 20 years of
experience in traditional TV.
They don't get podcast production
and there's a disconnect there.
And I think as this medium continues to
grow and expand, there are going to be
people from all of these different genres
and areas that are going to come together.
And so I think this will help
bridge some of those gaps and bring
everyone together a little bit.
Now Adam Curry and Dave
Jones are part of this consortium.
With the podcast index, will you take the
taxonomy and I'll ask Adam and Dave to
turn a tag on for you so that not only
can you say it's Daniel, Dave, or Ariel
who do this cost, but Hey, it's the job
role, but they actually have, so you
could do, I want to search for everybody.
Who's got, I don't know,
We're working with the
podcast in text right now.
So they're taking our white paper and
kind of our collaborative spreadsheet
where everybody can get on to that and
turning it into a Jason file that can
sit in the podcast index and the get hub.
I believe James Cridlin
actually suggested this.
The taxonomy grows, people who are
using the podcast index can use whatever
tags they want and it fits in there.
And, a standard doesn't mean much unless
there's, uptake from the people out there
who are hosting and producing podcasts.
So I think that's a very
important step for us as well.
And then, when that goes out there,
that's something that's going to
allow the podcast taxonomy to.
Reach more people bring more people
into the collaboration and just
get stronger and stronger as we go.
I've got Dave and Adam
on next week's podcast.
So we'll make sure that we
get them to do that for you.
Last question, I guess is what next
are you going to create more job roles?
Are you going to create
bands for salaries?
how do you see this
evolving as a taxonomy?
You said it's a live documents.
Where do you see it next?
Why don't I start?
And then let's all weigh in.
I know that we want to continue
to internationalize this.
And make sure that different
countries and different communities,
different languages are represented.
So I think that's one direction we
can go in and in parallel we want
to do what you mentioned earlier.
We want to make sure that companies
are adopting this and using this.
and look, I think we're gonna get
together with this big group of
people early next year to brainstorm.
if people internationally want
to get involved, where do they go?
How can they get involve?
And from there, you can reach out to us.
We ask you a couple of questions your
professional background, why you're
interested in being a part of it.
Then we'll review as a team and
ideally include you as we go forward.
So podcast, taxonomy.com.
Thank you so much for your time.
Daniel, Dave, it's been a pleasure to
talk to you all A fantastic initiative
to take the industry forward.
So thank you very much for doing
it They go James now much more
intelligent and clearly understand
what the podcast taxonomies.
Now we've got so much
more to go in this show.
One last story I really wanted
to cover was Charles is launched
their 20, 21 podcast privacy report.
It's a free PDF explaining
online privacy rules and tech
changes that will come next year.
What's this one about
James that you wrote about.
34:22 . James
Podcast privacy is going
to be a really important thing.
Next year it's already a really important
thing this year and online privacy,
generally particularly this piece from
charitable, which of course is a clever
piece of of work from them because
they are seen in some quarters as being
as sharing in some information with
podcasts listeners because that's of
course what they do, they're there to
attribute advertising but they have
put together a really helpful document,
which is all about how the privacy
rules, GDPR, CCPA all kinds of other.
New and exciting rules actually
affect us in podcasting.
It's a free download as a disclosure.
Chartable is currently split pod news.
But so really good read and it's
well worth having having a look at
so that we can understand where it
is that podcasting is actually going.
I'd be very keen that we highlight.
Privacy, which is why the podcast pages
on pod news actually show you whether
or not your listener data gets shared
with anybody, how that actually works.
What I mean when I say listen to data.
So is really important.
Now, one of my pieces of work for next
year is to stop using any third party
calls from the pod news websites.
I've already achieved that from pot
events and pod jobs and removing just
means that there's less chance for
Google, for Facebook, for everybody
else, knowing that you're having a
look at the pod news website which
is probably an important thing.
So , I think privacy is a very important
thing to watch out for next year.
35:57 , Sam
and I think it could be something
that actually happens to a lot of the
advertisers in the industry as well,
because next year Apple's iOS 14 is going
to turn on the identifier for advertisers.
that will limit tracking for
advertisers which means no more cookies.
And it also means it'll tell you
when any app is tracking you, so you
can then say, Nope, don't track me.
36:21 . James
I'm fascinated at that.
I'm fascinated at how that's going
to work with podcasts because a
podcast app isn't responsible for
where the audio gets downloaded from.
So I'm really interested
to see how that works.
But I think it's good news actually,
because if you look at what data podcast
is a podcast hosts get and attribution
companies like chartable and pod sites
and others then they get the same sort of
information that you get from a website
where you haven't said yes to cookies.
So they get an IP address.
They're going to use our agent.
So I think it's actually probably good
news for podcasting because there'll be
a level playing field in terms of the
amount of targeting and the amount of
tracking that we can do in podcasting
as opposed to any other app out there.
So perhaps it's good use forest.
Now one of the things we wanted to do
in Portland is to spend a little time
talking to those involved in podcasting.
So this week I talked with Kate
Brantley Cherniss from lately.ai.
Now, lately is a super cool thing.
It takes your content.
It automatically works out what the best
bits are to share them on social media.
At least that's what I think it is.
I started by asking her
what lately AI actually is.
This is a question I'm
supremely bad at answering and
it's supremely embarrassing.
So I'll try in two ways, the high
level way and the detailed, snazzy way.
So high level, you push a button.
We atomize your podcast into
hundreds of mini movie trailers.
So you can broadcast
them out into the world.
Like you are a marketing mega factory.
The snazzy part that happens
automatically in the background is
that all of the snippets we make for
you are automatically tested by AI.
That literally is learning what
your customers want to listen to.
In real time and updating all the time.
So it's picking the smartest bits of
everything you said in the podcast.
So it takes a number of
those smart things that you say and
turns them into social media posts.
How does it do that?
How does it know what works?
38:38 , Kate
it's a combination of natural
language processing and artificial
intelligence and looking at
sentence structures, so literally
the formatting, but also the
words very specifically, right?
So I'm interested in making
the world better copywriters.
That's my secret endeavor.
and so lately looks for words and
strings of words that it knows are
testing well and having high engagement
and it looks to replicate them.
Automatically by analyzing
your, analytics, but also by the
input that you, the human gives.
So we encourage and kick people in
the pants really, to get in there
for every social post that it brings
to you put a little bit of your
voice on it or enhance it or fix it
because sometimes it's not perfect.
So that gives the AI the opportunity
to learn your voice and to get smarter.
multiple posts, why not
just post one or two tweets?
what have you learned in terms of
the amount of posts that really were?
39:41 . Kate
So there's two
parts of that question.
One is that, there's the old
marketing adage, which goes,
are you winking in the dark?
Not marketing is a winking in the dark.
I can't see you cause it's dark out.
So we know that you have to
market yourself multiple times.
That used to be seven times that
I needed to hear read, or watch
your ad in order for it to sink in.
Now we know it's 12 to 14,
Quantity is imperative.
However, everybody's cottoned on to that.
We're all spam alerted.
Also Cambridge analytics for screwing
that up with all the third party,
social channels, Facebook, et cetera.
squashed down on repetition
and it's annoying anyways,
no one wants to be annoyed.
And because lately is giving you say
40, 60, or a hundred different social
posts, different ways of marketing,
the same thing you avoid all that.
The other Avenue is that.
Customers respond to
different messaging, right?
You can't not everybody's the same.
You don't want to treat them the same.
So treat them like the smart humans
they are and find out what access point
is going to make them do handsprings.
So if you were helping
people with their own social
media for their own podcast, what
tips would you actually give?
The most important thing is when
you're writing anything, whether you're
using lately or not, it doesn't matter is
to have an objective and be very clear.
The objective is not make more money and
it's not make more listeners hear you.
It has to be simpler than that.
And so it's two things in social media.
Click or share those.
Are your objectives, get a click
or get a share now the smaller you
are, the harder it is to get clicks.
Shares are a lot easier.
People love to share content
that resonates with them.
Want the one-liners right?
that's just so obvious.
And so number one have that in mind.
And then when you're writing
your copy, there's a couple of
mistakes that people make a lot,
but, the most important thing is.
You guys do this for a living all day
long, read what you write out loud.
If it in any way it feels
awkward coming out of your mouth.
It sounds awkward to me.
So don't do that change up those words.
Think about what's natural for you to
say and How you were being perceived on
the other end, because if it's stiff,
then that's what you're projecting.
And nobody buys or shares anything
from a stiff board, unless you're
Charlie Watts from the rolling stones
and where can I actually
go and have a look at a lately?
Channel, if you like, just so
that I can see how good the AI
is and what the thing looks like.
Thanks for asking.
so we love to meet people
and learn from them.
And so we demo individuals, we treat
small companies just like there were huge
companies with all the red carpet rollout.
it's not oppressive.
You can get email@example.com
just clicked on my request.
However, there's also a free
tool on the site as well.
And you can give it a whirl just to see.
but warning though, your eyeballs
might pop out of your, so just saying,
Kate, thank you
so much for your time.
Kate and she's such an
energy ball and Layli Dell.
Now, Gary V and I both use it for our
podcasts and I interviewed Kate a
few weeks back about her career as a
serious XM, late night rock chick host.
She had 20 million users and
she married a famous rock star.
And for some reason, she decided to
switch all that out and start lady.ai.
But if you want to find out why check
it out on sound talks, technology.
If you want the full interview,
now pod land is
sponsored by Buzzsprout.
They're a very good podcast
host at buzzsprout.com.
Sam, you are the person who
uploads this podcast to Buzzsprout.
Have you found it so far?
Have you used it before?
I haven't no, my podcast
is hosted on simple goals,
but I was looking for a reason
to use Buzzsprout sprout because it's
working very closely with Adam and
Dave on the podcast today, they've
implemented a lot of the new tags and.
One of the things I do like
they've made it very simple to our
transcriptions, but also chapters.
And again, those are a great
way for listeners to discover
parts of podcasts that they want.
So it's at buzzsprout.com
and there's a free trial.
James, what's coming up
in pod land for you this month.
So I'm looking forward to chatting
with Steve Pratt in a couple of weeks.
He's a co-founder of.
Pacific content who put together
a brilliant list of podcasts
predictions, which I linked to earlier
on this week Steve will join me from
Vancouver in Canada in a few weeks
He's such a bright guy.
So that'll be really good looking forward
to hearing from him in a couple of weeks
And next week, Dave Jones and Adam Curry.
What about you, Sam?
I'll be interviewing Franz Josef.
he's head of partnerships or hop in
and we're going to be talking about
the future of online conferences.
If you haven't heard of hopping, they're
a UK company that started in 2019.
They raised 125 million for series
B round a couple of weeks back.
And that new capital
was raised at the time.
2.1 billion valuation, making in a
double unicorn I used Hoppin for my
last two podcasts festivals, and I'll
be doing another one in March, 2021.
Good Lord, double
unicorn That's cool.
Anyway and that's it for this week.
If you enjoyed your trips upon land, don't
make it your last, you can subscribe on
all the major podcast players or you can
visit our firstname.lastname@example.org.
And don't bother to rate and review.
As clearly as James told
us Apple doesn't use it.
So don't waste your time.
But if you do want to do something
useful, you can help us by telling your
friends and share us on the socials.
Rate and review if you'd like to.
It's pointless, but to write in
our reviews, if you'd like to,
that would be also absolutely fine.
If you'd like daily news,
you should get pod news.
It's email@example.com, or ask your
smart speaker to play the news from
pod news, podcasting news and pod news
is where you'll find the links for all
the stories we've mentioned this week.
Music is from ignite jingles.
I use clean feeds to interview
Galen and Kate and edited those on
Hindenburg journalist pro cause I'm
old fashioned Portland was edited
by Sam Sethi and D scripts and were
hosted and sponsored by Buzzsprout.
And we'll see you in pod land next week.