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The last word in podcasting news... every Thursday in Podland, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from Sam Talks Technology in the UK, join forces to review and analyse some of the weeks top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout and Riverside FM.

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episode 13: Spotify StreamOn Analysis, Interview with Spotify's Mike Mignano and Podcast Movement the winners and losers. [transcript]


Join James Cridland and Sam Sethi on this week's show

INTERVIEW:


-  Michael Mignano  - Co-Founder, Anchor / Head of Podcaster Mission, Spotify - talks about all the new announcements from this weeks StreamOn

---

NEWS:

  • Extended Spotify analysis by James and Sam

  • Buzzsprout, Podbean, Spreaker and Captivate were all subject to a denial-of-service attack. The same attackers appear to have been involved. We were wondering why they've targeted podcast hosts: so we talked to the group behind the attacks. 

  • Podnews has launched new, live data today showing podcast host migrations. A first for the industry, it shows the small amount of individual shows that have switched podcast hosting company - where they came from, and where they went. It's updated daily!

  • Podcast Index 2.0 - Categories and Value for Value funding

Previous Episodes: https://www.podland.news


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 2021-02-25  47m
 
 
00:01  James
Welcome to Podland
00:01
Podland is sponsored
00:03
by buzz sprouts.
00:04
The easiest way to host,
00:04
promote and track your
00:07
podcasts there@buzzsprout.com.
00:10
It's Thursday, February
00:10
the 25th, 2021.
00:13
I'm James Cridland the
00:13
editor of pod news here in
00:16  Sam
Australia.
00:17
And I'm Sam Sethi the editor
00:17
of Sam Talks Technology
00:20
here in the spring Lake UK.
00:22  Michael
And I'm Michael
00:22
Magneto from anchor and Spotify.
00:25
And later I'll be talking
00:25
about the new announcements
00:27
you've made this week.
00:29  James
He will Podland is
00:29
a weekly podcast where Sam
00:32
and I delve deeper into the
00:32
week's podcasting news, which
00:35
I cover daily@podnews.net.
00:37  Sam
Please get involved
00:37
with this podcast, send us
00:39
a voice message to questions
00:39
at Podland don't use, or you
00:43
can tweet us at Podland news.
00:45
Let's get on with the
00:45
stories from this week.
00:47
There seems to be one big story.
00:50
The big one of course is.
00:51
The Spotify announcements.
00:53
James, what did Spotify say?
00:55  Did you stay up until 2
00
00:55
AM on the end of your bed?
00:59
listening to
01:00  James
Daniel?
01:01
No, I did not stay up instead.
01:04
I had this blizzard of.
01:06
Press releases just
01:06
so many announcements.
01:10
So the big one for Podcast,
01:10
as I think is that anchor
01:14
announced the launch of paid
01:14
subscriptions later this year.
01:17
There's a demo, which if you
01:17
slow it down, you can see
01:21
that Podcast has, can choose
01:21
from $2 99, $4 99 or $7 99
01:26
a month subscriptions as a
01:26
price point for your Podcast,
01:30
which seems quite high.
01:31
Then the Spotify audio
01:31
network for advertising
01:33
around podcasts, anchor, and
01:33
WordPress are doing a thing.
01:36
So if you want your podcast
01:36
to sound as if it's a robot
01:39
reading out a blog post, and
01:39
you can video podcasting,
01:43
if you use anchor, you can
01:43
add video to your podcasts.
01:46
There's interactivity with
01:46
Q and a and polls and 80
01:49
new countries, which is
01:49
1 billion potential, more
01:53
people and Spotify Hi-Fi.
01:55
And more daily
01:55
mixes, quite a thing.
01:59
The one thing I did do
01:59
after reading all of
02:01
those press releases is
02:02
I caught up with a co-founder
02:02
of anchor and the head
02:05
of the Podcast mission at
02:05
Spotify, Michael . I was not
02:08
as you'll hear using this
02:08
fancy microphone, Michael
02:12
lots of announcements from
02:12
Spotify and anchor this week.
02:14
Which of those announcements
02:14
are you most proud of?
02:18  Michael
I think that
02:18
I'm really proud of.
02:21
The entire thing, especially
02:21
the notion of this new
02:25
future formats strategy
02:25
that we talked about today.
02:29  James
You announced paid
02:29
subscriptions, which is one
02:33
of the things that will catch
02:33
a lot of podcasters eyes.
02:37
It's going to be launched at
02:37
some stage soon as a limited
02:41
beater in the U S do you have
02:41
any idea of timeframes on that?
02:45
I can't
02:45  Michael
give you an exact
02:45
date right now, but what I can
02:48
say is that, we expect that
02:48
this feature will come into
02:51
beta sometime this spring.
02:54  James
And is Spotify going
02:54
to take a cut of the revenues,
02:58  Michael
Spotify?
02:58
we'll be taking
02:58
a very small fee.
03:01
we're still figuring out
03:01
exactly what that fee is.
03:03
we're figuring that out through
03:03
a combination of research
03:07
and talking to creators and
03:07
talking to our listeners.
03:10
But the creator will be taking
03:10
home the large majority of the
03:14
payment from the listeners,
03:14
because at the end of the day,
03:17
what we're really trying to
03:17
do is give creators ways to
03:20
make a living off their art.
03:22
And it's really true to
03:22
the spirit of our mission.
03:25
To enable creators to
03:25
monetize their work in
03:27
whatever ways they see fit.
03:29
Yeah.
03:29  James
And I think that's one of
03:29
the exciting things about a lot
03:31
of what you've announced today.
03:33
You've also announced
03:33
anchor and WordPress,
03:36
which went live today.
03:38
how do you see people
03:38
using your new partners?
03:41  Michael
there are so many
03:41
craters out there in the world
03:43
on the internet who are sharing
03:43
ideas and expressing themselves
03:48
through the written word, but.
03:50
As I'm sure, you're a big
03:50
fan of podcasts and audio as
03:53
am I many people especially
03:53
more and more, it seems every
03:57
year wanting to enjoy an
03:57
experience content through
04:00
their ears, through audio.
04:02
And so we thought that it would
04:02
be great to partner up with.
04:07
The biggest blogging
04:07
platform in the world, right?
04:09
You've got Spotify, the biggest
04:09
audio platform in the world
04:13
and WordPress, the biggest
04:13
blogging platform in the world
04:15
to Tema and make it possible.
04:17
So that, that these written
04:17
texts, creators could express
04:21
themselves now through audio.
04:23
And so the integration is really
04:23
great and easy and seamless.
04:26
if you have a WordPress blog,
04:26
You can connect it to an
04:30
anchor account and we make
04:30
it super easy for you to take
04:33
your posts, your blog posts,
04:33
and quickly translate them
04:37
into audio that can, that
04:37
can be consumed as a part,
04:40  James
I guess you've also
04:40
announced interactivity things
04:42
like Q and a and polling
04:42
is the plan to make the
04:46
Podcast audience a bit more
04:46
engaged with the shows that
04:49
they're listening to that.
04:50
Yeah.
04:51
And I think
04:51  Michael
it's also a way to
04:51
get the creators more engaged
04:54
with their fans as well, Yeah.
04:56
Podcasting has really always
04:56
been a one-way street,
04:59
with very, very little
04:59
opportunity for direct
05:02
feedback in either direction.
05:04
as podcasters have had to
05:04
take to other platforms such
05:07
as social media to understand
05:07
who their audience is and
05:10
what they're looking for
05:10
and to interact with them.
05:12
But because of.
05:14
The unique Podcast distribution
05:14
process that exists
05:17
between anchor and Spotify.
05:19
We're in a position
05:19
to change this.
05:20
We can create direct connections
05:20
between creators and listeners.
05:23
So I think you're
05:23
absolutely right.
05:25
we're really excited to
05:25
give creators and listeners
05:28
access to things like Q and
05:28
a and polls, which will, will
05:32
allow podcasters to ask their
05:32
audience questions and get
05:35
answers directly on Spotify.
05:37  James
And that goes above
05:37
and beyond the current stats
05:39
that you give Spotify creators
05:39
on the platform as well.
05:44  Michael
Yeah, so yeah, I
05:44
do, due to our integration
05:47
with Spotify, I think one
05:47
of the really cool things
05:49
that we've been able to do
05:49
inside of anchor is give.
05:52
Creators more unique insights
05:52
to what they're typically
05:56
used to, that they might get
05:56
through a standard RSS feed.
05:59
I think if Q and a and poles as
05:59
just another great capability
06:03
that we can build on top of.
06:04
the existing channels
06:04
of distribution
06:07  James
video podcasting is
06:07
coming later on this year to
06:10
anchor users and to Spotify.
06:13
Will those videos be only on
06:13
the Spotify platform or if
06:18
I happen to have a different
06:18
podcast app, will I be able
06:21
to see them there as well?
06:22  Michael
Because of the way
06:22
that the technology works and
06:25
how we're distributing the
06:25
content these videos for the
06:28
creators that have access to
06:28
this feature, these videos
06:32
will only appear on Spotify.
06:34
The goal with these is
06:34
not to turn Spotify into
06:37
a video platform, but
06:37
it's really to offer.
06:40
Content that complements
06:40
the audio being shared.
06:43
So for some podcasts, we feel
06:43
like it may make sense to have
06:46
a visual component to enhance
06:46
what the listener is hearing.
06:49
And that's really what
06:49
we're trying to enable here
06:51  James
in terms of the numbers.
06:52
I launched something the other
06:52
week that showed where Podcast.
06:57
Creators are moving
06:57
to a lot of people are
07:01
migrating it over to anchor.
07:03
you now host I've worked
07:03
out more than 650,000 shows.
07:07
I don't know whether you
07:07
have a more up-to-date
07:09
number than that.
07:11
What's your end goal here?
07:12
Are you still very
07:12
positive about the open
07:16
nature of podcasting?
07:18  Michael
Yeah.
07:18
So what I can share is
07:18
that as you've noted.
07:21
Podcasting is just becoming
07:21
more and more popular for not
07:25
only listeners, but creators.
07:28
And, we have launched a
07:28
lot of podcasts and lots
07:31
of creators are coming
07:31
over to anchor to do that.
07:34
In fact, in 2020, the year
07:34
2020 alone, anchor launched.
07:38
More than a million podcasts.
07:40
so we're, we are seeing massive
07:40
growth, but at the end of
07:43
the day, what we want to do
07:43
and what we think we are in
07:46
a position to do by being on
07:46
the same stack as Spotify.
07:50
Is providing the best
07:50
experience for creators.
07:53
We think there are things that
07:53
we can do for creators that
07:56
really technically haven't been
07:56
possible on other platforms.
08:00
We want to provide the best
08:00
experience for podcasters
08:03
that's pulling in not only
08:03
new creators, but anyone
08:06
that wants to take advantage
08:06
of the tools and the idea
08:10
of this strategy that we've
08:10
talked about at length today.
08:13
This feature format strategy.
08:16
The goal of these features,
08:16
the feature format oriented
08:18
features are to build on top of
08:18
the existing audio experience,
08:22
not to prevent innovation and
08:22
listening outside of Spotify,
08:26
but to create experiences
08:26
that are only possible because
08:30
Spotify is podcasting ecosystem
08:30
contains both the creation and
08:33
the listening Technology yeah.
08:35
I
08:35  James
mean, you can
08:35
certainly have a look
08:36
at the current RSS spec.
08:39
And say that actually, you
08:39
know, accompanying video isn't
08:41
possible in the current RSS spec
08:41
nor is questions and answers
08:46
and all of that kind of stuff.
08:47
So actually what you're saying
08:47
there is podcasting will always
08:51
be open, but actually the
08:51
additional interaction and the
08:54
additional features that you can
08:54
offer are made possible because
08:57
you are so tightly integrated
08:57
with the Spotify playback.
09:01
Yeah.
09:01  Michael
I think we're
09:01
saying there's a, there
09:03
can be a better experience
09:03
for creators and listeners.
09:06
And we can think
09:06
bigger for creators.
09:09
We can think bigger
09:09
for listeners.
09:10
We don't have to be confined to
09:10
just what we've been used to.
09:14
And we want to hold ourselves
09:14
to a standard to give both
09:17
the creators and the listeners
09:17
that better experience.
09:19  James
Michael, thank you
09:19
very much for your time.
09:21  Michael
Thanks so much,
09:22  Sam
James.
09:22
Great to talk to you.
09:24
So James there's Michael,
09:24
what did you think
09:26
though, of the Spotify
09:28  James
announcement?
09:28
If I was in charge of Spotify,
09:28
as PR, as I'm sure that somebody
09:31
is incredibly rich and in charge
09:31
of Spotify, PR I would have
09:36
released one of these every day.
09:37
There are some really big
09:37
stories here that kind of
09:40
get a, by the way, they've
09:40
also done X, Y, and Zed.
09:43
So the interactivity, for
09:43
example, I thought was
09:45
really interesting to see.
09:47
Questions and answers, polls,
09:47
all of that kind of stuff.
09:50
Video podcasting as well.
09:51
We've got video podcasting
09:51
of course, in podcasts.
09:54
But what you have to do at the
09:54
moment is you have to search
09:56
for another different podcast,
09:56
which is called probably, this
10:01
week in tech video, rather
10:01
than this week in tech audio
10:05
and use that instead with the
10:05
result that you don't know where
10:08
you got up to and everything
10:08
else, it's all a bit of a map.
10:11
Whereas what this thing
10:11
seems to do is it basically
10:14
will let you have a big.
10:15
Button much short YouTube music.
10:17
They love me saying that
10:17
a big button where you can
10:19
flip between audio and video,
10:19
which is really cool, but
10:23
it only works on anchor.
10:24
And then the paid
10:24
subscriptions thing, which
10:27
I thought is exactly the
10:27
sort of thing that I've been
10:30
waiting for Apple to do.
10:32
They haven't done it
10:32
yet, but anchor and
10:35
Spotify have jumped in.
10:37
I think that sounds
10:37
quite interesting.
10:39
So what did you
10:39
think of the image?
10:41
I was
10:41  Sam
really enthused
10:41
by what they're doing.
10:43
Look, industry itself has been
10:43
a laggard for 10 bloody years.
10:47
Apple's done bugger
10:47
all to nothing with it.
10:50
And along came Spotify decided
10:50
to get into podcasting and
10:53
then, everyone woke up and, Adam
10:53
dusted down wherever he's been
10:57
for 10 years and decided to get
10:57
back into podcasting finally.
11:01
And.
11:02
What we suddenly found
11:02
that's me counsel from
11:04
the Adam Curry show.
11:05
By the way, what we suddenly
11:05
found was that, innovation
11:09
started to come back
11:09
into Podcast and suddenly
11:11
people were talking about
11:11
Podcast again, I've said
11:14
it a couple of weeks ago.
11:15
I think streaming
11:15
is the way forward.
11:17
And I think downloading is
11:17
a legacy of an industry that
11:20
had a bandwidth problem.
11:22
That's what originally.
11:23
IPods and Paul dial up
11:23
internet and active two
11:27
megabit per second board band
11:27
that we had to deal with.
11:30
All of that meant downloading
11:30
was a sensible way to go
11:33
forward, but now you can be
11:33
anywhere, anytime, any place and
11:37
just get Spotify and streaming.
11:38
I can get it in my car.
11:40
And that was one of the
11:40
things that Daniel X said,
11:41
it's a ubiquitous platform
11:41
it's available everywhere.
11:44
Even when Apple isn't on
11:44
Android, Spotify is, in it's
11:48
on Apple, it's in my car.
11:50
As a platform, Spotify is
11:50
everywhere as streaming
11:52
it's everywhere and Sam
11:52
crowd the from a million ad
11:56
set, a really good thing.
11:57
He can work out
11:57
location time of day.
12:00
How many ads have been read?
12:02
I think all of that leads
12:02
to a very good thing.
12:04
The other side of the coin is.
12:06
You may not even
12:06
have to have ads.
12:08
If subscriptions come
12:08
in, we're all waiting for
12:11
Apple to do something.
12:12
It could be Christmas.
12:13
It could be next year
12:13
before we get Apple
12:15
subscriptions, I don't know
12:15
when they're going to do it.
12:17
They talk about stuff.
12:19
The East has been doing
12:19
this for a long while.
12:21
Look at him, a layer, $7
12:21
billion last year they made
12:24
and they'd been charging.
12:25
We just need to get a
12:25
move on in the Western.
12:28
And if this Spotify
12:28
announcement gives Apple
12:30
the kick up the pants they
12:30
need, then good on them.
12:33  James
Great in some ways,
12:33
but it is basically Spotify
12:38
and anchor building, lots
12:38
of proprietary things that
12:41
no one else can play with.
12:43
So video podcasting, that
12:43
clever thing where you can
12:46
choose to either watch the
12:46
video or the audio of a podcast
12:50
that could be possible with
12:50
the alternate enclosure that
12:53
Podcast index are working on.
12:55
And that could frankly have
12:55
been the way that anchor and
12:58
Spotify had done it all so that
12:58
this works on everything, but
13:02
they've decided that they're
13:02
going to make something which
13:05
is their own system, which
13:05
is only going to work within
13:07
anchor out within Spotify.
13:09
Now, Michael was very
13:09
clear in that interview.
13:12
He was.
13:13
Basically saying,
13:13
Oh, I said it doesn't
13:14
currently let us do that.
13:16
And the benefit of anchor
13:16
and Spotify being so
13:19
conjoined is that we can
13:19
do this type of innovation.
13:24
And I think he's got a point,
13:24
but I think actually we're
13:27
anchored to work with the
13:27
rest of the industry and
13:29
Spotify to work with the
13:29
rest of the industry here.
13:32
Then they will still be doing it
13:32
the best, but at the very least
13:36
they would be able to allow
13:36
other people to play along.
13:40
And that would probably be a
13:40
better thing for the industry.
13:43
Having said that it's
13:43
probably not going to help
13:45
the Spotify share price, No.
13:47
I look, they've
13:47  Sam
made a massive investment
13:47
in Gimlet in anchor.
13:50
They're not going to go and then
13:50
say we're just going to open
13:52
the commode and let everyone
13:52
have access to our technology.
13:56
This is just not the way
13:56
it's going to work open.
13:58
The
13:58  James
commode was
13:59  Sam
that.
14:00
Yeah,
14:01  James
good work.
14:02
Yes.
14:02
But no, they're not.
14:03
They're not going to do that.
14:04
Are they?
14:04
And their Spotify audio
14:04
network for advertising,
14:07
which they're expanding
14:07
to also include megaphone.
14:10
Brian violator basically
14:10
turns around and says, look.
14:14
This is all about
14:14
advertising in an app.
14:17
This isn't Podcast advertising.
14:18
This is advertising in an
14:18
app and the app is Spotify.
14:21
And that's basically
14:21
how that works.
14:23
And I think he's
14:23
fair in doing that.
14:25
The question is, I suppose,
14:25
if, depending on whose numbers
14:30
you look at, but if Spotify
14:30
is about 20% of all podcasts
14:33
downloads, that means that
14:33
there's another 80% of podcast
14:36
downloads out there that
14:36
Spotify can make money out of.
14:40
If they actually was to share
14:40
some of this technology with
14:44
the rest of the industry.
14:45
But again, it comes back
14:45
to my boring point, which I
14:48
probably make every single one
14:48
of these shows, which is that
14:51
we lack an industry group.
14:53
We lack a best practice group.
14:55
We lack a lobbying group
14:55
because we haven't grown up
14:58
yet enough as an industry.
14:59
And so therefore.
15:00
We don't actually have anyone
15:00
that Spotify could go to and
15:04
say, Hey, we've got this idea
15:04
to make podcasting better.
15:07
Why doesn't everybody work
15:07
on it because there's no
15:09
one for Spotify to talk to.
15:11
So I suppose it's our fault.
15:12
Really?
15:13  Sam
It is.
15:14
And I think in the absence
15:14
of that, Spotify just got on
15:16
with it and we in the West
15:16
need to get away from just an
15:20
outlet model in everything.
15:21
And I'm not just
15:21
talking about Podcast.
15:23
I would pay happily
15:23
for a Twitter account,
15:25
a Facebook account.
15:26
I pay for medium.
15:27
I pay for the Ft.
15:29
Flight to quality
15:29
is what we need.
15:31
And I think we got to
15:31
get away from this.
15:34
I'm the product, therefore
15:34
advertising can be stuck around
15:37
me and I can be blasted with it.
15:39
And I think once we get away
15:39
from it's all about advertising,
15:42
isn't it gov and that's
15:42
the only way to make money.
15:46
And then we will start
15:46
to see different models.
15:48
And I think.
15:49
I don't know if the model that
15:49
Spotify has put out in terms
15:52
of the payment, two 99, four
15:52
99 and seven 99 to good number,
15:56
but it's a starting number and
15:56
it's like the same with anchor.
16:00
anchor came out, we all had a
16:00
little bit of a laugh, but he
16:02
did a few things because it got
16:02
people interested, but it wasn't
16:04
a serious hosting platform.
16:06
they'll get better.
16:07
Look at music and talk,
16:07
That is pretty average.
16:11
If you're a radio broadcast,
16:11
you can't make, she can't
16:14
talk over the end of the
16:14
track, but what did it do?
16:16
It allowed Podcast is
16:16
who do music Podcast is
16:20
suddenly get a license.
16:22
How long has this industry,
16:22
the PRS, the PPL, and everyone
16:25
else been sat on their hands.
16:26
Oh, I don't know
16:26
how it affects this.
16:28
So we just have no Podcast
16:28
from radio stations
16:31
that can go global.
16:33
Guess what Spotify
16:33
goes and fixes.
16:34
I should be in their PR team.
16:36
I really should.
16:37
I created a solo show the other
16:37
day in Spotify, just playing
16:40
with it, using my road mixer.
16:42
I created it not great.
16:44
I probably wouldn't put
16:44
it out, but I'm testing
16:46
it because guess what?
16:47
If this comes to the point
16:47
where I can put a subscription
16:49
against it and push it
16:49
out as a brand new show.
16:52
Happy days.
16:53
And I'm sure version two of
16:53
mix and talk will allow me
16:56
to blend over the top as I
16:56
would on a radio station.
16:59
And so suddenly we're
16:59
all going, Oh, it's crap.
17:02
It's not good enough yet.
17:03
It's good enough.
17:04
And it's the
17:04
innovator's dilemma.
17:06
The Apple have done nothing
17:06
and nor has the industry.
17:09
And Spotify has come along
17:09
and said, you know what?
17:10
it's proprietary, but
17:10
we'll start at that point.
17:13
And maybe they'll open
17:13
the door and share their
17:15
technology with the industry.
17:16
But as you said, who, with
17:16
there, isn't an industry body to
17:19  James
share it with.
17:20
Yeah, and they're hardly likely
17:20
to share it with Apple and
17:23
frankly, Apple hardly likely to
17:23
want to listen to anybody else.
17:27
Having said that, I think
17:27
the one thing that Apple
17:29
could do very quickly to
17:29
kill a lot of this work is
17:33
for Apple to release Apple
17:33
podcasts onto Android.
17:37
And for Apple to turn
17:37
on a subscription model
17:40
on their service, they
17:40
already have a subscription
17:43
model for their app store.
17:45
They've got all of that
17:45
technology in place.
17:47
It's not going to be difficult
17:47
for them to turn that on.
17:50
And certainly, the there's been
17:50
rumors that Apple is currently.
17:55
Adding Apple podcasts
17:55
for Microsoft devices.
17:58
I think the X-Box is the one
17:58
that I'm hearing about, which
18:01
is a strange choice, but if
18:01
that's true, then that will
18:05
show that Apple podcasts can
18:05
exist on more devices than
18:09
just a Apple computer or phone.
18:12
And I think that.
18:13
Will probably be a
18:13
big kick to Spotify.
18:17
And so Spotify maybe is making
18:17
all of these announcements in
18:22
one day in their stream on video
18:22
so that they can actually then
18:26
make that point and make them
18:26
sound as if they are brilliant,
18:29
because frankly three-quarters
18:29
of what they announced.
18:32
Isn't here.
18:33
Three quarters of
18:33
what they announced is
18:35
we're working on this.
18:36
You know, you heard Michael
18:36
earlier saying that the
18:39
paid subscriptions will
18:39
be a limited beta in the
18:42
U S starting in spring.
18:44
That's not open to everybody
18:44
and it's not available now.
18:48
I guess we've got that
18:48
sort of side of it as well.
18:50  Sam
Yeah.
18:51
But I think they've got
18:51
to announce stuff to
18:54
set the market for 2021.
18:56
it puts a stake in the ground
18:56
for them, they were in X number
18:59
of countries as a music service.
19:01
Now they've just launched
19:01
83 more countries or
19:03
whatever the number was.
19:04
And so yeah, Spotify is
19:04
doing the right thing.
19:07
I still have my bet.
19:09
Yeah.
19:09
William Hill, which is that
19:09
Netflix and Spotify will merge.
19:12
And I think that's
19:12
going to be a safe bet.
19:14
I think you'll get squeezed.
19:15
I think one day, I think
19:15
you mentioned Apple could
19:19
turn on subscriptions,
19:19
but so could Amazon.
19:21
it doesn't take
19:21
much for Amazon to
19:22  James
say no, and it, and it
19:22
certainly seems that Amazon are
19:25
very aggressively looking at
19:25
growing their side of it, which
19:29
I think makes a bunch of sense.
19:30
I think, you know, we
19:30
glossed over, I glossed over
19:33
earlier on 80 new countries.
19:35
They're in, I think 85
19:35
countries at the moment.
19:39
So this nearly doubles
19:39
the amount of countries
19:41
that they're in.
19:42
It's 1 billion potential
19:42
new listeners now, or be it
19:48
that many of those listeners
19:48
won't have the phones and
19:50
the capability of doing it.
19:52
But they've basically
19:52
turned on all of Africa.
19:54
They've turned on a lot
19:54
of Asia that didn't have
19:56
Spotify in the past.
19:58
That could be a
19:58
massive game changer.
20:01
Podcasting is going to
20:01
be in most of those new
20:04
territories that they're in.
20:06
I mean, even that by itself,
20:06
forgetting everything else,
20:09
even that by itself is a
20:09
tremendous move forward.
20:13
So one of the other
20:14  Sam
things I wanted to
20:14
ask you about James was
20:17
the squeezed middle.
20:19
As I like to call it the
20:19
hostess in the middle.
20:21
would you see Apple buying a
20:21
hosting company themselves?
20:27
If you think about the role of
20:27
hosting, it says to upload your
20:30
podcast and then disseminate
20:30
that to other fundamentally
20:33
Google, Spotify, or Apple.
20:35
That's the main places where
20:35
majority of content goes.
20:40
We talk about subscriptions,
20:40
but I think the other
20:44
dangerous anchor is now
20:44
the host partner for.
20:48
Spotify, that's their clearly
20:48
driven goal to get all of that.
20:52
What would Apple do if they
20:52
bought a hosting company?
20:54
What would happen
20:54
in there industry?
20:56  James
As I understand it, Apple
20:56
was sniffing around anchor when
21:00
anchor was still independent,
21:00
Apple was sniffing around
21:03
and considering buying them.
21:05
And I think it's a bit of a
21:05
shame that they haven't done.
21:07
That will be really interesting.
21:09
Wouldn't it?
21:09
If you ended up with a product
21:09
like anchor or megaphone or
21:15
someone else that would allow
21:15
you to then upload stuff that
21:18
was exclusive on Apple podcasts
21:18
that you could charge for, then
21:24
that would have quite an effect.
21:26
To the industry.
21:27
even more of an effect to
21:27
the industry that anchor
21:29
is currently having.
21:30
And we'll probably come back
21:30
to that a little bit later,
21:33
but I think yeah, there's a,
21:33
there's a bunch of questions
21:36
isn't that all around.
21:38
What would happen if Apple
21:38
took this industry seriously?
21:43
Yeah.
21:43
and that, and the difficulty
21:43
at the moment is that you look
21:45
at the amount of money just
21:45
in terms of advertising and
21:48
by podcasting over the last
21:48
year, that amount of money is
21:52
around $800 million in the U
21:52
S and Apple earns that amount
21:58
of money about every 12 hours.
22:01
So Apple, frankly, they can look
22:01
at podcasting and they can go,
22:05
how much is it really worth?
22:06
Really?
22:06
It's just change.
22:07
It's just chump change for them.
22:09
But who knows, maybe they see
22:09
Spotify as beginning to be
22:13
quite a potent competitor.
22:15
And maybe that's something
22:15
that they do want to
22:17
end up fighting against.
22:19
I
22:19  Sam
liken Apple to
22:19
the toys in the hair.
22:22
They are the top
22:22
choice in the industry.
22:24
They never go fast.
22:25
They never.
22:26
But they always seem to get
22:26
ahead of the game eventually.
22:29  James
And I used to do
22:29
exciting radio things
22:33
online for a living.
22:34
I moved from Virgin radio
22:34
and we were the first to do
22:36
all kinds of things first
22:36
to stream online in Europe.
22:39
First to get a mobile
22:39
phone app first to do all
22:42
kinds of wonderful things.
22:45
I moved from there.
22:46
To the BBC and one crusty
22:46
old BBC guy says that Jamie's
22:50
wherever you come from.
22:52
And I said I've come
22:52
from Virgin radio.
22:54
Oh, what's that?
22:55
And so I explained all
22:55
of the firsts that we'd
22:57
had and everything else.
22:58
And he said, Oh yeah that's
22:58
all very interesting.
23:00
But you see here at the BBC,
23:00
we don't do things first.
23:04
We do them properly.
23:05
And I saw and I thought
23:05
maybe, maybe that's Apple,
23:09
we don't do things first.
23:10
We do them properly and you
23:10
can probably have a look at
23:13
everything that Apple has in
23:13
inverted commas invented from
23:18
widgets on the home screen to
23:18
wireless charging, to Bluetooth
23:22
headphones, blah, blah, blah.
23:24
They haven't done any
23:24
of these things first.
23:27
But arguably they have
23:27
done them properly.
23:29
So maybe that's being fair
23:29
at Apple or maybe that's
23:32
what they Excel at doing.
23:34  Sam
The other story that
23:34
came out was you've been doing
23:37
a little bit of inspector
23:37
clues , so, uh, Buzzsprout
23:40
pod bean spray, and captivate.
23:42
Just to name a few, we're all
23:42
subject to a denial of services
23:46
week and took the services down.
23:48
But you found out who did
23:48
it, James, what's going on?
23:51
Why were they all
23:51
being attacked?
23:53  James
Yes, I was doing
23:53
my very best inspector.
23:55
So you do realize that
23:55
inspector clues though is
23:57
completely inept at anything.
23:58
and when we, when we
23:58
were talking before we
24:00
came on, you said you've
24:00
been a bit of a Colombo.
24:03
I like Colombo.
24:04
He used to fix things.
24:05
He used to, he used to get
24:05
to the bottom of things.
24:07
He would say just
24:07
one more question,
24:09
Alicia, one more thing.
24:10
And it just it'll just take
24:12  Sam
a second.
24:12
And he would do
24:12
all of that stuff.
24:13
Wasn't that?
24:14
Where Steve jobs got his.
24:15
He's a famous lung problem.
24:17  James
Yeah.
24:18
One more thing, but
24:18
there is one more thing.
24:20
Yeah.
24:20
So there's been a guy
24:20
called Jesus out there.
24:23
He's a hacker.
24:24
He was targeting a
24:24
lot of Podcast hosts.
24:28
So he spent some time targeting
24:28
Buzzsprout, which had quite
24:31
a bad couple of days of it.
24:34
been as well.
24:35
Hasn't had too good, a time
24:35
Spreaker and captivate, who I
24:39
advise for we're also hacked.
24:41
I understand also that
24:41
he threatened, but
24:43
didn't hack transistor.
24:45
They all had a denial of service
24:45
attack, which is basically lots
24:48
of computers, all accessing
24:48
their systems at the same
24:52
time and basically stopping
24:52
anything from happening.
24:55
So I talked to
24:55
the guy behind it.
24:56
He's a man called Jesus.
24:58
I'm sure that's
24:58
not his real name.
24:59
He says he lives in.
25:01
I'm sure he doesn't really,
25:01
he says his mother's very ill,
25:03
which I'm very sorry to hear.
25:05
And he desperately
25:05
wanted $1,500.
25:09
Payable by Bitcoin,
25:09
please, to help his mum.
25:12
But he also said that he
25:12
had a group of another
25:14
four people who were behind
25:14
these particular attacks.
25:18
I understand that one of the
25:18
Podcast houses actually had
25:21
a look at his Bitcoin account
25:21
and seen that his Bitcoin
25:25
account has another, had quite
25:25
a few payments in it recently.
25:29
so he's clearly been
25:29
successful with some of
25:32
the attacks that he's done.
25:33
None of the Podcast hosts have.
25:35
Either had any problem with
25:35
losing any personal information,
25:39
but also none of the Podcast
25:39
house have paid him any money,
25:42
which is I think a good thing.
25:44
And, I had a chat with
25:44
him, none of what he said
25:46
made very much sense.
25:48
I discovered by the way
25:48
that it's Stonier is
25:50
much like the UK in that
25:50
it's got free healthcare.
25:54
So if his mum really is
25:54
in hospital in Estonia,
25:57
then she doesn't need
25:57
$1,500 worth of Bitcoin.
26:00
She, she can get whatever it is
26:00
that she needs done on the state
26:04
as any civilized country does.
26:05
So therefore yeah, it was,
26:05
but it was interesting talking
26:08
to him because I was just.
26:09
Curious to find out is
26:09
this because you really
26:12
hate the Joe Rogan podcast?
26:14
Is this because you have a
26:14
real thing against, Glenn
26:18
Beck or Ben Shapiro or
26:18
whoever that person might be.
26:22
And now he's got no interest
26:22
in podcasting at all.
26:25
It's just an extortion thing.
26:26
And he just wanted some money.
26:28
I suspect he lives in
26:28
South America somewhere.
26:31
Certainly there.
26:32
The stuff that I've
26:32
understood about him.
26:35
I suspect that he's in
26:35
Uruguay or somewhere.
26:38
And I suspect that, it's an
26:38
awful lot of money for him
26:40
and, it's an extortion thing.
26:41
And that's about as far as
26:41
we've got the next episode
26:44
of buzz cast, which is buzz
26:44
sprouts, Podcast who are
26:47
our sponsor, they will be
26:47
talking in great detail.
26:51
So I understand about their.
26:53
Denial of service attack.
26:54
And I know that Tom Rossi
26:54
was working incredibly hard
26:58
earlier in the week, making sure
26:58
that everything still worked.
27:00
thanks to them and to the other
27:00
podcast hosts who were affected.
27:03  Sam
Yeah.
27:04
I managed to get hold of
27:04
his mother by the way,
27:06
James and I got a quote
27:06
from her and she says,
27:16  James
Very good.
27:17
That's the second Monty
27:17
Python reference in 24 hours.
27:21
I made one today in pod news
27:21
as well, where I was talking
27:26
about a new podcasts that the
27:26
New York times has put together,
27:29
which is called the argument.
27:31
And I finish it by saying
27:31
that a it's not just a
27:34
five minute argument.
27:35
It's the full half hour.
27:36
So thank you very much.
27:38
Story.
27:38
Number three, I
27:38
launched something new
27:40  Sam
didn't I Sam you did
27:40
now before we talk about it,
27:43
because it was launched what
27:43
you launched at the end of
27:46
last week's podcast, but we
27:46
couldn't talk about it because
27:48
it hadn't actually launched.
27:50
And then you came up with a
27:50
fancy name for a graph as well.
27:52
So I was going to ask you what.
27:54
Is that graphing.
27:55
Then you can tell us all about
27:55
what the report was about.
27:58  James
Yeah.
27:58
So this is a fancy graph
27:58
that shows movement from
28:01
one place to another.
28:02
And in this particular case from
28:02
one Podcast host to another,
28:07
it's called a Sankey graph.
28:10
And it's called after
28:10
the man who invented
28:11
it, which was a man.
28:13
called Mr.
28:13
Sankey.
28:14
I believe that would make sense.
28:16
it's very nice.
28:17
This was a new piece of data
28:17
that I released last week.
28:20
It's actually data that
28:20
updates every single day
28:23
and the data, it shows the
28:23
changes on Podcast hosts.
28:28
So if you leave one podcast
28:28
host and you move to another,
28:32
it shows those changes in
28:32
a fancy Sankey diagram,
28:35
which will all make sense.
28:36
If you visit the website,
28:36
pod news.net/articles/hosts.
28:40
Slash changes and you'll see
28:40
where people are moving from and
28:45
where people are going to, the
28:45
big story that I got from it.
28:48
And the big story that is
28:48
continuing is that there are
28:51
a lot of people leaving, paid
28:51
for hosts and moving to anchor.
28:57
And I hadn't fully appreciated
28:57
how many people have left, paid
29:02
for hosts and moved to anchor.
29:04
By looking at this graph,
29:04
you either see on one side
29:08
people leaving a podcast
29:08
host, and on the other side,
29:11
people joining a podcast host.
29:13
If you're a decent podcast
29:13
host, then hopefully you
29:16
should be smaller on the
29:16
left-hand side than you
29:18
are on the right hand side.
29:19
I see more people moving
29:19
to you than from you.
29:23
Buzzsprout is roughly
29:23
equal at the moment.
29:25
Libsyn, lots of people leaving
29:25
SoundCloud and lots of people
29:29
leaving pod bean roughly equal,
29:29
but anchor is the company,
29:34
which is just scooping up
29:34
so much traffic and so many
29:39
Podcast as it's quite a thing.
29:40  Sam
There you go.
29:42
Thank you for backing up
29:42
my argument from earlier.
29:44  James
Yes, exactly.
29:46
I mean, to be fair, it
29:46
lists individual shows
29:48
it doesn't show clients.
29:50
So there's a bunch of
29:50
podcasts leaving art 19 and
29:54
going to either simple cast.
29:56
Or Omni studio and to be fair,
29:56
having spoken to Lex it art
30:00
19, it's two clients cast
30:00
media and there's one other.
30:04
And so it's not necessarily a
30:04
particularly fair thing, just
30:07
having a look at numbers of
30:07
podcasts, but it still gives
30:09
you a very interesting view
30:09
into what Podcast is are doing
30:15
and where they're moving to.
30:16
Now.
30:16
One of
30:16  Sam
my favorite expressions
30:16
is from your fellow Australia.
30:19
And I can call you that
30:19
now, which sounds very odd
30:21
with your English accent
30:21
still is Edward de bono.
30:23
and he was the inventor
30:23
of lateral thinking.
30:26
And one of the I, one of
30:26
his favorite or his favorite
30:29
sayings, and my favorite
30:29
expressions is complexity
30:31
is failed simplicity.
30:33
And that is where I think
30:33
anchor is going to be.
30:37
Popular, because it's just
30:37
simple to do it's on your phone.
30:41
You can do it at it.
30:42
You can get going and it's free.
30:44
And I think that's the,
30:44
probably more the keyword
30:46
than simple it's free.
30:48
And I think that's where they're
30:48
going to see a big uptick.
30:50  James
Yes, I think so.
30:51
But then, lots of people
30:51
leaving SoundCloud.
30:54
There are people migrating
30:54
to red circle, but
30:57
not very many of them.
30:58
So I think it's more
30:58
than just being free.
31:00
I think it is the UX
31:00
and I think it is the
31:02
opportunities that you get.
31:03
It is very simple.
31:05
And one of the difficulties
31:05
that many other podcast hosts
31:08
have with anchor is that.
31:09
They've done some clever sort
31:09
of hacking if you like into the
31:13
Apple podcasts system, which
31:13
just means that it's easier
31:16
to get into Apple podcasts.
31:17
And none of the other podcast
31:17
hosts have done that possibly
31:21
for the right reasons, but
31:21
you can understand why some of
31:24
the podcasts hosts quite angry
31:24
at them and want to talk them
31:27
down as every opportunity.
31:28
So what
31:29  Sam
can Podcast hosts do?
31:30
I talked a few minutes
31:30
ago about, what if Apple
31:33
bought a hosting company
31:33
and then I talked about.
31:36
What are the squeeze middle
31:36
as far as I'm concerned.
31:39
Cause Spotify is going off and
31:39
doing one thing hosting itself,
31:43
hasn't evolved all either.
31:45
we talk about Apple, not
31:45
doing anything, but has the
31:47
hosting industry done much?
31:49
certain hosting companies now
31:49
are adopting Podcast index is
31:52
tags and moving it forward,
31:52
namely Buzzsprout our sponsor
31:56
has done it and there are many
31:56
others who are now doing it.
31:59
But why is it that they
31:59
haven't done it, sooner?
32:03
and what are they in the video?
32:05
Cool chain between making money,
32:05
hosting, providing services,
32:11
pod Paige who you, we, you
32:11
interviewed, Brenda Mulligan has
32:14
done a better job of him proving
32:14
the Podcast hosting landing
32:19
page than the whole of the
32:19
industry has done for decades.
32:22
why are they so
32:23  James
slow?
32:23
the Buzzsprout
32:23
pages are very nice.
32:25
The captivate pages
32:25
are very nice.
32:26
I think that it's, it's
32:26
difficult to look at the
32:30
amount of money that Podcast
32:30
hosting is generally charged at
32:34
about $20 per person of which
32:34
bandwidth does cost quite a lot.
32:39
It's quite difficult to work
32:39
out, how much money you can plow
32:43
into new technology, into new.
32:45
Ideas.
32:46
And I think also you
32:46
have the old card.
32:48
Who are they going?
32:49
No one must change our audio.
32:52
that's really important.
32:53
Nobody has changed our audio.
32:55
And actually, if you're going to
32:55
read it, I really do a great job
32:58
at being a great podcast host.
33:01
Then one of your jobs is to
33:01
re transcode the audio to make
33:05
it sound brilliant at as low
33:05
bit rate as you possibly can.
33:09
And that's what
33:09
anchor does actually.
33:11
Yeah.
33:11
as well as other
33:11
Podcast hosts as well.
33:13
So I think, there's a bunch
33:13
of these truths that have
33:16
been passed down by the great
33:16
old guard of your and anchor.
33:21
I think one of the reasons
33:21
why anchor annoys these
33:23
people so much is that anchor
33:23
have come to the podcasting
33:27
world with different
33:27
ideas and basically gone.
33:31
It looks as if it's really
33:31
difficult to get into Apple.
33:33
Podcast we'll just hack away in.
33:35
That's fine.
33:35
You can just do it
33:35
under our own account.
33:37
That's dead easy.
33:38
what else can we do?
33:40
Oh, we'll, we'll make, 'em,
33:40
we'll make, questions and
33:42
answers and, and videos work.
33:45
they'll only work with their
33:45
Spotify, but that's enough.
33:47
and they've just gone
33:47
ahead and done it.
33:49
And you try getting that through
33:49
some of the larger Podcast house
33:52
in particular, and that that's
33:52
a difficult, difficult job
33:55  Sam
now.
33:56
We'll move on.
33:57
So one final story, James,
33:57
that caught my eye was
34:00
on the Mastodon thread.
34:02
And I noticed that there's a
34:02
whole story about categories.
34:05
We talked about categories
34:05
a couple of weeks ago.
34:08
We had a question from a
34:08
listener called Mark asking us
34:11
about the value of categories.
34:13
We talked about Apple.
34:14
Owning the category segment.
34:16
And then we had that final
34:16
story about whether there will
34:20
be a climate change category.
34:22
we said that, wouldn't it be
34:22
great if there was a bottom up
34:24
rather than top down taxonomy.
34:27
Now it seems that, the
34:27
Podcast index guys are working
34:30
on some new ideas around
34:30
categories what's going on.
34:33
Yeah.
34:33  James
So this is the Podcast
34:33
index Mastodon which is
34:35
at Podcast index.social.
34:37
I think.
34:38
And it's always worthwhile
34:38
having a quick peek in there.
34:40
There's all kinds of
34:40
conversations going
34:42
on and they're talking
34:42
about categories now.
34:45
I think that they're
34:45
doing a couple of things.
34:48
I think one of the things
34:48
is that they are trying to
34:51
reinvent the wheel a little bit.
34:52
there is an iTunes category
34:52
tag in RSS, but what
34:57
happens if you don't use
34:57
the iTunes namespace while
35:00
you'll need a category tag?
35:03
And so therefore this.
35:04
Think is them working out what's
35:04
the category tag should be if
35:09
we're not going to use iTunes.
35:10
I think we are going to use
35:10
iTunes for a long, long time.
35:12
So I'm not entirely sure of
35:12
the relevance of that work.
35:15
But having said that, one of
35:15
the things they are talking
35:18
about in terms of categories
35:18
is either coming up with a
35:21
great big list of categories.
35:23
And already the get hub is
35:23
filling up with people wanting
35:26
an I'm wanting tabletop games,
35:26
please, as a category, because
35:29
there are lots of podcasts
35:29
about tabletop games and then
35:32
somebody will come along and
35:32
say, I want a category about
35:35
underwater knitting, please,
35:35
because I think there's a
35:37
good, and so all of that will
35:37
happen and I've put forward
35:41
the idea that instead of.
35:43
Categories, as you say, top down
35:43
categories, think of it the same
35:48
way as we used to put tags on
35:48
our photographs with flicker,
35:52
for example, or hashtags
35:52
with Twitter or subject in
35:57
medium, those sorts of things.
35:59
And actually, that
35:59
means that you can type
36:00
in anything you like.
36:02
And if enough other people are
36:02
typing in the same category,
36:05
then eventually you get to
36:05
a point where you have a set
36:09
of pretty good categories,
36:09
which are malleable in which
36:12
just work and potentially if
36:12
you have a look at the type
36:16
of people who are involved
36:16
in the Podcast index at the
36:20
moment, they're all like me.
36:21
They're all white men of a
36:21
certain age who come from
36:24
a very Western background.
36:25
And that's probably not the
36:25
right people to be setting.
36:29
A set of global
36:29
categories for podcasts.
36:32
So I wonder whether the idea
36:32
of tags rather than categories
36:36
might be something that more
36:36
people might get behind.
36:39
I don't know.
36:40
No, I think
36:41  Sam
that would work.
36:41
I dirtied myself yesterday
36:41
and used Facebook and I
36:46
put a hashtag in there.
36:47
And actually what was
36:47
quite interesting as I
36:50
created my own hashtag
36:50
that I wanted for the post.
36:53
And then Facebook informed
36:53
me nicely that 1000 people
36:56
had only used them that tank.
36:58
So it was a very low tag usage.
37:01
That's great.
37:01
So I think that's a great
37:01
way of actually using that
37:05
bottom down ability to tag
37:05
something and create it and
37:08
then find out if there's a.
37:10
Group of other people using that
37:10
same take, there is a method.
37:13  James
Yeah, no, I think so.
37:14
And, when you add a category
37:14
to a medium post, for example,
37:17
it shows you again how
37:17
many people are following
37:20
that medium category.
37:22
So you can actually work out,
37:22
do I want this in Podcast or
37:25
do I want this in podcasting?
37:27
Oh, I clearly want it in
37:27
podcasting because podcasting
37:29
is four times as large
37:29
as Podcast, for example.
37:32
So it's that sort of thing.
37:33
And I think, yeah.
37:33
Something which is.
37:35
A little bit more open and would
37:35
allow anyone of any culture of
37:38
any backgrounds to be able to
37:38
work out what categories their
37:42
podcasts should be on there.
37:44
And if there are no
37:44
categories, brilliant use
37:46
the iTunes categories.
37:47
I don't know.
37:47
Maybe that's the plan, but
37:47
we'll see what other people do.
37:51
And the wonderful thing
37:51
about the Podcast index is
37:54
that it is a very open and.
37:56
Democratic thing.
37:57
And everybody is entitled
37:57
to their views, no
38:00
matter how wrong they
38:01  Sam
are, but I think what
38:01
you said that last part there,
38:04
James was telling, which is
38:04
discoveries, one of the biggest
38:08
challenges in podcasting.
38:10
And I think if I could
38:10
follow a category that I.
38:13
Was particular to, because in
38:13
the long tail of podcasting,
38:17
it's always going to be
38:17
a small niche market.
38:19
And so if I could find all
38:19
the people who did underwater
38:22
knitting, I would be very
38:22
excited and I could follow
38:25
their Podcast and that
38:25
discovery element, because
38:29
they could create their own
38:29
hashtag means that you can
38:31
build bottom up communities
38:31
rather than this top down.
38:35
We tell you what you can go into
38:35
in which box you're allowed.
38:39  James
Yeah, I think
38:39
there is something there.
38:41
And I think Eric Newsom who
38:41
was instrumental in NPR,
38:45
getting into podcasting and
38:45
is now running his own agency.
38:49
He.
38:50
Said something very clever
38:50
on a panel that I was on.
38:53
Not so long back, he was
38:53
talking about the amount of
38:56
podcasts out there, which at
38:56
the moment is 1.9 million.
39:01
And he was saying that they
39:01
are 1.9 million niches.
39:06
It's very different to
39:06
radio radio is broadcast.
39:08
You're trying to reach as many
39:08
people as you possibly can
39:11
with a Podcast you're almost
39:11
trying to reach your niche or
39:15
your niche if you're American.
39:16
And so really 1.9 million niches
39:16
as a way to think about podcasts
39:22
or 1.9 million communities,
39:22
and I really liked that.
39:26
And I think that's a really
39:26
good definition between.
39:29
What radio is really good at,
39:29
which is reaching lots of people
39:33
and what podcasting is good at,
39:33
which is potentially reaching
39:37
lots of people, but actually
39:37
reaching the right people.
39:39
Yeah.
39:39
I,
39:40  Sam
I love Kevin Kelly and
39:40
he's got a thousand true
39:42
fans is one of his books
39:42
and that's fundamentally how
39:45
I base podcasting around.
39:46
I think you've got find
39:46
your 1000 true fans and with
39:50
subscriptions, get them to pay.
39:52
A small micro payment, and
39:52
therefore you have a sustainable
39:55
business, which is what Michael
39:55
was saying, allowing creators
39:58
to make a living off this.
40:00
I think that's the model.
40:01
I personally, I think the
40:01
advertising model can stay
40:04
at the top end of the table.
40:06
And I think, people like
40:06
Joe Rogan and the top end
40:08
can play with advertising.
40:09
I find it messy.
40:10
I think dynamic content rather
40:10
than dynamic ad insertion is
40:15
going to be how I like to call
40:15
it because I think I can use
40:18
dynamic content insertion.
40:20
In my Podcast to do clever
40:20
things like events, speaker
40:24
announcements, other things,
40:24
and it doesn't always have
40:27
to be about a sponsor or an
40:27
advertiser, which just makes.
40:30
Making a podcast for
40:30
me doubly hard 98.
40:34
Now, one of the other things,
40:34
as I was trawling through
40:37
the lovely mastered on a
40:37
thread was I noticed that
40:42
a couple of people have
40:42
started to integrate the new.
40:46
Value for value funding
40:46
model that Adam and David
40:49
pushing forward, given that
40:49
we're talking about Spotify
40:53
subscriptions and Apple
40:53
subscriptions and 10 pods
40:57
added it into their Podcast
40:57
catcher, what do you think
41:01
is going to happen there?
41:02
Jane?
41:03  James
Yeah.
41:04
there are two bits of funding
41:04
or value for value that
41:09
Podcast index is working on.
41:10
One of those things is a simple,
41:10
straightforward funding tag,
41:14
which is, I think the one
41:14
that antenna pod is currently
41:17
working on, which allows you
41:17
to put in your podcast, feed
41:21
a link, which is basically
41:21
a support this podcast link.
41:25
We used to have something
41:25
relatively simple that Marco
41:28
came up with from overcast.
41:30
And I think, that's a simple,
41:30
straightforward thing that
41:33
quite a lot of Podcast
41:33
apps could put in there.
41:35
There's another thing, which is
41:35
the value for value thing, which
41:38
has to do with cryptography
41:38
it's to do with SATs, which
41:42
are a Satoshi is the scent.
41:46
Of a dollar in a Bitcoin world.
41:47
If you see what I mean.
41:48
So lots of Satoshi's
41:48
make up one Bitcoin.
41:52
And so the idea behind the
41:52
value for value thing is that
41:56
as you listen to a podcast,
41:56
you are paying the podcaster
42:02
or paying the Podcast and
42:02
their co presenter and
42:07
their hosting company or
42:07
whatever you are paying them
42:11
a small flow of Satoshi.
42:14
And you can listen to
42:14
pod news in that way.
42:16
If you have this Fink's chat
42:16
app and I will get a tiny
42:20
amount of Bitcoin every time
42:20
you have a listen, one of
42:23
the problems I think with it
42:23
is that it's a value system,
42:28
which works on how long you
42:28
listen to a podcast, not how
42:33
valuable that podcast is.
42:35
So pod news is only
42:35
three minutes long
42:37
or four minutes long.
42:38
I would like to think
42:38
it's quite valuable.
42:40
This Podcast.
42:42
Yeah.
42:42
Is I think this week it'll
42:42
be about an hour long.
42:46
I would think that it's
42:46
also quite valuable, but
42:48
not necessarily the same
42:48
value per minute that you
42:51
might get from the pod news.
42:52
Podcast I think, we need
42:52
to be wary of encouraging
42:57
Podcast is not to edit
42:57
encouraging Podcast is not
43:00
to be concise just because
43:00
they'll actually get more money
43:03
if their Podcast is longer.
43:04
I'm not sure that that's
43:04
a clever plan, but there
43:07
may well be lots of
43:07
other ways of doing it.
43:09
But as you've heard me.
43:10
Talk all the way through this.
43:12
It does sound quite complicated.
43:14
Doesn't it sound?
43:15
It does.
43:15
So
43:15  Sam
you don't think it's
43:15
a bunch of Tosh then?
43:17
you do think they might be,
43:19  James
I occasionally upset
43:19
Adam in there because I'm
43:22
talking about, when can we
43:22
expand the value for value
43:24
tag to include real money?
43:26
And, and Adam's very upset
43:26
because I think Adam believes
43:29
that the future is Bitcoin and,
43:29
and a bat and a theory there
43:33
may well be weird and wonderful
43:35  Sam
may well be, Bitcoin
43:35
exceeded the value of
43:37
gold briefly this week.
43:39
It doesn't exist.
43:40  James
Sam wow.
43:41
It
43:41  Sam
does.
43:41  James
Does it doesn't exist?
43:44
What is it?
43:44
20% of all Bitcoin lost.
43:47
That's the figure that I've
43:47
heard 20% of all Bitcoin will
43:50
lost that's because they'd never
43:50
existed in the first place.
43:54  Sam
No, they're locked
43:54
in the side of wallets
43:55
that no one can get into.
43:56
That's even funny.
43:58  James
They never existed.
43:59
anyway.
44:00
Yes, cryptocurrency
44:00
it's it's the future.
44:04
It's not
44:04  Sam
right.
44:05
you better have a
44:05
chat with Ilan then.
44:07
Okay.
44:08
Now that's the end
44:08
of this week show.
44:10
So James, what's coming
44:10
up in Podland for you.
44:12  James
I am speaking at pod
44:12
Fest tomorrow, tomorrow night.
44:15
My time I'm speaking
44:15
at pod Fest, it's two
44:18
30 in the morning.
44:20
Nothing's going to go wrong
44:20
there, particularly nothing's
44:22
going to go wrong there because
44:22
the previous one night is a
44:25
trivia quiz at the local school,
44:25
which is quite a well-known
44:29
trivia quiz for all of the
44:29
parents to get quite drunk.
44:34
And then I'm speaking at Podcast
44:34
at two 30 in the mornings.
44:37
So that's going to be
44:37
good, but anyway, join me.
44:38
If you can, if you don't
44:38
have tickets for pod Fest,
44:41
then use the code pod news
44:41
and you can get in for free.
44:45
I'm also speaking at rain, the
44:45
rain Podcast business summit in
44:49
New York in a couple of weeks,
44:49
and do a web search for that.
44:53
That's a very fancy.
44:55
Industry thing that you should
44:55
get involved with, I will be
44:58
chatting with Brian Moffett,
44:58
who is the big cheese at MPR.
45:02
I'm sure he's got a proper
45:02
job title, but that's
45:05
what I like to think.
45:06
And then there's radio days,
45:06
Asia coming soon as well,
45:08
which is radio days, asia.com.
45:11
What's coming up for you.
45:12
You've you've been launching a.
45:14
Radio station.
45:15
And one of the things, normally
45:15
when I'm here looking at you
45:19
through these Podcast interface
45:19
that we use, I can see all
45:23
of the things that's, that's
45:23
written on your whiteboard,
45:25
but I noticed this week you've
45:25
made your background blurry.
45:29
So I can't really all of
45:29
the things that you're
45:31
planning on your white
45:32  Sam
board.
45:33
That's probably
45:33
the wisest thing.
45:35
yeah, the list is
45:35
longer than I have time.
45:37
That's the problem.
45:38
Now I, we launch on
45:38
Monday, my God, six 30 in
45:42
the morning, I will be in
45:42
the studio seven o'clock.
45:44
We launched river.radio,
45:44
which is very exciting.
45:47
And why am I doing,
45:47
I have no idea.
45:49
Some days when I think about
45:49
all the conversations we had
45:52
about how radio is dying and
45:52
podcasting is the future.
45:55
So why go and launch a radio
45:55
station, but there you go.
45:58
We'll see what happens next.
46:00
That's me for Monday
46:02  James
and that's
46:02
it for this week.
46:03
If you've enjoyed your trip
46:03
to Portland, come back again.
46:06
Next time you can subscribe
46:06
and all the major podcast
46:09
players or visit our
46:09
website at Podland dot news.
46:13  Sam
And if you enjoyed
46:13
this episode, thank you.
46:15
Please tell your friends by
46:15
sharing us on your socials,
46:18
that maybe you didn't enjoy this
46:18
episode, just don't tell anyone
46:20
that would be even better.
46:22
We love to have your
46:22
comments about anything
46:23
on the show today.
46:24
Send us a voice comment
46:24
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46:27
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46:29
Podland
46:30  James
news.
46:30
Yes.
46:30
And if you want daily news,
46:30
you should subscribe to the
46:32
daily pod news newsletter.
46:34
It's free@podnews.net.
46:36
And that's where you'll
46:36
find all of the links.
46:37
All the stories we've
46:37
mentioned this week, music
46:40
is from ignites jingles.
46:41
We use squad cast and Google
46:41
meet for our interviews.
46:45
This week, I use the worst
46:45
microphone known to man from
46:48
my conversation with Michael
46:51
It was edited by me on
46:51
Hindenburg journalists pro,
46:54
and we're hosted and sponsored.
46:56
Bye Buzzsprout
46:57  Sam
and we'll hopefully see
46:57
you next week in Podland.
47:00
If we've not been delisted.