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episode 44: How to Grow a Podcast to 6 Million Downloads + An Update from Lake Stevens, Washington [transcript]


In this episode, we check in with our Lake Stevens field correspondent, discuss the differences between Clubhouse and Podcasting, and hear from Josh Kaplan on how he grew Morning Brew's podcast "Business Casual" to more than 6 million downloads within 18 months of launching.

Links from today's episode

  • Listen to "The Stoic Jew" podcast, hosted by Rabbi Matt Schneeweiss
  • Listen to "Business Casual"
  • Follow Josh on Twitter @jkaplan1
  • Follow Kinsey on Twitter @kinseygrant


Review Buzzcast in Podchaser to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-01-29  1h2m
 
 
00:00  Kevin
If you're an avid podcast
00:00
listener, and you listen to
00:02
everything, you know, 1.5 to 1.7
00:02
X, getting into clubhouse feels
00:06
like the slowest thing ever.
00:10  Travis
With silent skipping
00:10
turned on and voice boo. Yeah,
00:13  Alban
you actually listen
00:15  Kevin
at 1.5 1.5 is the
00:15
minimum, I listened that really
00:19
I usually listen like 1.75
00:21  Travis
I'm a 1.3 smartspeed
00:21
guy.
00:23  Alban
I'm up locked in one to
00:23
one ratio.
00:27  Kevin
Oh my gosh, I can't do
00:27
that. How do you like what
00:30
you're looking at me like I'm
00:30
crazy person, you can totally do
00:34
it.
00:37  Travis
So we have an update on
00:37
a story that we broke here on
00:40
the podcast. At the end of last
00:40
year, we were investigating some
00:45
mysterious play data that was
00:45
popping up across the Buzzsprout
00:50
podcast ecosystem. But our man
00:50
on the ground, Rabbi Matt Shea
00:56
Weiss. He did some digging for
00:56
us in the Alban.
00:58  Alban
Yeah, we got a nice email
00:58
into support case read it.
01:01  Travis
Yeah, go ahead and read
01:01
the email that that Matt sent
01:04
us.
01:05  Alban
Sure. Dear press brah. I
01:05
live in New York City. But I'm
01:08
in Seattle visiting my parents.
01:08
I was just driving back from an
01:11
Airbnb near somewhere. And I'm
01:11
nearly screenshoot Hall. Why?
01:16
Because I saw a light side for
01:16
Lake Stevens, Washington. I just
01:20
listened to your podcast in
01:20
December about the mysterious
01:23
high volume of downloads from
01:23
that town. I was going to
01:26
continue to my destination, but
01:26
I had a few minutes to spare. So
01:30
I said to myself, I have to
01:30
visit this town. I've been tried
01:33
to leave the data center and
01:33
gave up after a little while. I
01:37
just love it. Somebody sent us
01:37
an email because they are
01:40
hunting around Lake Stevens, we
01:40
actually have people on the
01:43
ground now searching to try to
01:43
figure out if we can, you know,
01:48
uncover the true origins of this
01:48
mystery?
01:50  Travis
Yes, I'm not saying it's
01:50
at the same level of Sasquatch.
01:54
But there are now Lake Stevens
01:54
data center hunters
01:58  Alban
we have Lake Stevens
01:58
troopers,
02:00  Travis
yes, on the ground,
02:00
searching for the elusive data
02:04
center that's delivering all of
02:04
these IP addresses to your
02:06
devices around around the world.
02:06
So what what's what's mats
02:12
podcasts, let's make sure we
02:12
give them a good shout out.
02:14
Thank you so much for doing that
02:14
work. And for sending us an
02:16
email that totally made our
02:16
week.
02:18  Alban
He has a podcast called
02:18
the stoic Jew, which is kind of
02:22
looking at stoicism from a
02:22
Jewish perspective. I've
02:26
definitely got a law school
02:26
roommate who I know who'd be
02:29
into this. So check it out. If
02:29
that sounds interesting to you.
02:32
And thanks again for reaching
02:32
out. This is a Yeah, these are
02:36
definitely the kind of things
02:36
that just give me like, I don't
02:40
know, they just cracked me up.
02:40
Because like that we're sitting
02:43
here having a goofy conversation
02:43
about something that pops up in
02:47
our stats, and then hearing how
02:47
it actually the real world.
02:50
There's people like taking
02:50
detours from their family
02:52
vacations. They're like no, we
02:52
got to stop at this town. Try to
02:55
find the data center. Yeah, I
02:55
just loved getting this email.
02:59  Travis
Yeah, we have the best
02:59
listeners in all the podcasting.
03:02
Buzzcast audience you guys are
03:02
the best. I think
03:05  Kevin
we have a new Lake
03:05
Stevens,
03:07  Travis
a new mean, a new
03:07
mystery data center hidden under
03:11
a lake. I'm just looking at the
03:11
Buzzcast
03:14  Kevin
stats, but Lake Stevens
03:14
over our last five episodes has
03:18
now dropped considerably. I
03:18
think when we did the original
03:20
episode on Lake Stevens we were
03:20
like it's number like five
03:22
episodes. It was like number two
03:22
or three now it's dropped to
03:26
123456 now it's down to six.
03:26
There's a new number one that
03:30
I've never seen before.
03:30
Centennial Colorado.
03:34  Travis
Yes.
03:35  Alban
All right. And now we
03:35
need someone at Centennial
03:37
Colorado
03:38  Travis
that sounds like a
03:38
secret Air Force at this
03:40  Alban
actually we haven't got a
03:40
pretty much this has been
03:43
confirmed. That Kevin's idea of
03:43
just the IP addresses haven't
03:48
been like re allocated their
03:48
locations haven't been and you
03:53
can see that by the fact that
03:53
like Stephens dropped so
03:56
dramatically is that those are
03:56
getting actually correctly
03:59
allocated but now we've we still
03:59
need to do some more research
04:03  Travis
either that or the the
04:03
mystery is determine the
04:08
Terminator bots were like we've
04:08
been discovered shifts locations
04:11
abort abort, DEFCON five, and
04:11
they moved to a secret mountain
04:16
hideout in Centennial Colorado
04:16
in a nuclear bunker so that
04:20  Alban
they can tell which of us
04:20
is really into like Disney star
04:23
warships. Segment
04:30  Travis
they so thank you so
04:30
much, Robin that that was
04:33
awesome. And another update. We
04:33
want to circle back to last
04:39
episode. Alban was just getting
04:39
prepared and ready to do his
04:43
first clubhouse. Virtual events
04:43
talk. So Alvin let us know how
04:49
that went. Like how did how did
04:49
your clubhouse thing go?
04:53  Alban
Man? I mean, I think it
04:53
went pretty well. We did. I
04:57
actually raised back Travis, and
04:57
I had been Filming for a video
05:01
that's going to come out
05:01
probably in like a week or two.
05:04
And I raced home with like, five
05:04
seconds to spare hopped on
05:08
clubhouse on a from black pod
05:08
collective was very kind and
05:14
invited me on. And pretty much
05:14
for an hour and a half, we just
05:18
did q&a. And it was q&a with I
05:18
think the room almost always had
05:24
over 100 people in it. And we
05:24
were just bringing people up on
05:28
stage, they'd say something
05:28
about Buzzsprout everyone seemed
05:30
very, um, definitely laid a lot
05:30
of groundwork for it, because
05:35
everybody knew what Buzzsprout
05:35
was. They they're used
05:38
Buzzsprout, or they were
05:38
interested in it. And so there's
05:43
lots of questions about
05:43
podcasting marketing strategies,
05:47
lots of ideas. And this is this
05:47
cracked me up. Lots of people
05:51
had ideas for things that they
05:51
were like, Hey, can we build
05:55
this and the first and I was
05:55
like, after that was like, Hey,
05:57
I can't tell you if we're
05:57
building anything. That's like
05:59
one of our policies that we
05:59
don't tell you over build
06:02
something, building something
06:02
because things change. And you
06:05
don't want to make promises that
06:05
you can't keep. And then people
06:09
started there were definitely
06:09
two that were like people said,
06:12
Hey, if you could build this,
06:12
it'd be really helpful. And it's
06:18
definitely there were things
06:18
that we are working on right
06:20
now. And so I had like, a bit of
06:20
I wanted like Kevin to be there.
06:24
So you just like, promote him.
06:24
And it'd be like an Elan musk
06:27
moment. You know, like, people
06:27
tweet Ilan, they're like, hey,
06:30
would be cool if like, my car
06:30
could do this. And he's like,
06:33
okay, I'll put it out in the
06:33
next update. But you know, that
06:36
they're just hunting for the
06:36
person who asks for the thing
06:39
that they're about to release.
06:39
And I was like, man, I want to
06:42
do that so bad. Just like pop
06:42
Kevin in. He's like, fine. next
06:45
release? I'll put that in. Well,
06:45
yeah, a few of those are coming
06:49
out a couple of the things that
06:49
kind of surprised me. I mean, we
06:52
did it for an hour and a half.
06:52
And we it definitely could have
06:55
gone a lot longer. Because there
06:55
were so many people with good
06:57
questions, who kept trickling
06:57
in? How many people kind of like
07:04
followed through clubhouse over
07:04
to Twitter. So I got a bunch of
07:08
new Twitter followers from it.
07:08
Which is not like, I don't know
07:13
if there's any real value in
07:13
building a Twitter following for
07:15
me. But it was surprising to me
07:15
how I saw so many people move
07:21
from one platform to the other.
07:21
And so there's obviously some
07:24
kind of like synergistic
07:24
relationship between the two
07:27
that people are using them
07:27
together. And when I was trying
07:30
to think about it afterwards,
07:30
Kevin, and I debriefed about
07:32
this, it doesn't feel like it's
07:32
a great marketing channel, in
07:36
the sense that, you know, we're
07:36
going to get tons of Buzzsprout
07:40
customers from clubhouse. But it
07:40
did feel like a really nice, it
07:46
kind of is similar to what would
07:46
happen at a conference itself,
07:50
where you're just kind of
07:50
walking around meeting with
07:52
people talking, making
07:52
connections, and there's a bit
07:57
of a networking component. So
07:57
there are quite a few
08:01
podcasters, who I knew, or
08:01
people that work in the podcast
08:04
industry who kept popping into
08:04
the room. And so I do think you
08:07
have the ability to kind of do
08:07
some networking, especially if
08:12
you were in a pretty focused
08:12
niche. You could, you know,
08:15
connect with people in that
08:15
niche pretty easily if they're
08:19
on clubhouse. And it may be
08:19
pretty difficult to do that if
08:23
they're on another social media
08:23
platform. I don't know if
08:25
that'll go away, though, as
08:25
clubhouse gets, you know, quite
08:28
a bit bigger.
08:29  Kevin
Yeah, I like that about
08:29
that. For sure. It's the
08:34
struggle that I'm having is
08:34
trying to figure out how, you
08:38
know, how, how is what's the big
08:38
picture here, like what's the
08:40
best use for clubhouse. I found
08:40
myself in the last week hopping
08:45
into a couple rooms, but quickly
08:45
getting bored because unlike at
08:48
a conference, where you're
08:48
walking around, and there's a
08:51
bunch of different vendors or
08:51
speakers on the on the show
08:53
floor, and you can walk up and
08:53
you kind of see how long the
08:56
line is. And you know, this is a
08:56
10 minute wait to talk to this
08:59
person or whatever. In
08:59
clubhouse, you really have to,
09:02
you know, stand on the sidelines
09:02
and listen to a whole bunch of
09:05
other people's questions and
09:05
conversations before you can
09:08
start talking about what you
09:08
want to talk about. And
09:11
sometimes that's great.
09:11
Sometimes you happen to be on
09:14
the sidelines, and there's
09:14
something very interesting being
09:16
discussed. And then sometimes
09:16
there's something that you're
09:17
not interested in. And you just
09:17
have to sit there and wait and
09:20
you have no idea like how many
09:20
different tangents the the
09:24
conversation is going to go on
09:24
before you get to come in and
09:28
take it in the direction that
09:28
you want to go. Another problem
09:30
I was trying to figure out, like
09:30
how do I work around this was
09:33
somebody would ask a question or
09:33
discussion would go a certain
09:35
direction. And they'd asked for
09:35
opinions from people in the
09:38
audience, like does anybody have
09:38
any thoughts on this or so I go
09:41
ahead and raise my hand. I'd get
09:41
accepted up on the stage.
09:43
There's five people ahead of me.
09:43
By the time those five people
09:46
have their say and talk about
09:46
other things, the conversation
09:48
is completely moved on from that
09:48
point. And so then I'm just
09:51
like, remove myself from the
09:51
stage like I don't want to, like
09:54
backtrack the conversation. 20
09:54
minutes, right? And so I'm not
09:58
saying that too. Say this isn't
09:58
a good platform. I'm just saying
10:02
it's very early and we're all
10:02
still kind of figuring out how
10:05
do these rooms work and and
10:05
what's the best way to
10:08
participate? And what's the best
10:08
way to keep a conversation
10:10
moving forward instead of like a
10:10
two steps forward one steps back
10:13
back type thing, but it kind of
10:13
felt like, at least in my
10:17
experience in this last week of
10:17
I was sitting in on rooms and
10:20
trying to contribute where I can
10:21  Travis
I have still not
10:21
downloaded clubhouse.
10:26  Alban
I like they were like,
10:26
kind of looking at Travis going,
10:28
Oh, what do you think? Yeah.
10:28
Have you do you don't have an
10:32
invite?
10:33  Travis
It's not that I don't
10:33
have an invite or couldn't get
10:36
one. It's simply just kind of
10:36
waiting it out to see if this is
10:40
something worth investing time
10:40
into.
10:43  Alban
I'm gonna go register
10:43
Travis Albritton.
10:45  Travis
Right. You can
10:46  Alban
you can sell it to you
10:46
and it gets big.
10:48  Kevin
I will tell you this,
10:48
that at least if you're an East
10:50
coaster, like the three of us
10:50
are probably not good if you
10:52
have young children, because
10:52
most of the rooms and stuff
10:55
start popping up at least the
10:55
ones that I'm subscribed to,
10:58
like around 910 o'clock at
10:58
night, which is when parents
11:02
with young kids are like toast
11:02
for the day. Sure. And so that's
11:05
happened more than once when
11:05
I've seen a room pop open. And
11:09
I'm like, Oh, that looks
11:09
interesting. But I'm like the
11:12
first time I sat down all
11:12
evening, I'm not ready to go.
11:16
In, even if I did jump in, I'm
11:16
like, I'm so exhausted. I can't
11:19
I'm not you're not gonna get
11:19
your best thoughts out of me at
11:22
that point?
11:22  Alban
Well, there are some I
11:22
mean, as creators, I think
11:25
there's cool ways to network,
11:25
there are some cool
11:27
conversations that may not
11:27
happen other places. It's got a
11:30
similar podcast II vibe that
11:30
people don't feel like
11:35
everything has to be perfect.
11:35
They kind of just talk and riff
11:38
on ideas, they can run a bit
11:38
long, and you do have to be
11:42
available as it's happening. So
11:42
that is some of the downsides.
11:47  Kevin
The interactivity part is
11:47
a huge benefit that you get in
11:50
clubhouse that you're not going
11:50
to get in podcast, or as easily
11:54
and I should say yet, like we
11:54
haven't cracked that nut yet in
11:57
the podcasting world. But the
11:57
drawback, at least when you're
12:01
comparing it to podcasts, is
12:01
that I can listen when I want,
12:05
how I want where I want at the
12:05
speed that I want. Like, if
12:09
you're an avid podcast listener,
12:09
and you listen to everything,
12:11
you know, 1.5 to 1.7 X, getting
12:11
into clubhouse feels like the
12:16
slowest thing ever.
12:20  Travis
With silent skipping
12:20
turned on and voice boo.
12:22  Alban
Yeah. Do you actually
12:22
listen at 1.5 1.5 is
12:26  Kevin
the minimum I listened
12:26
that really I usually listen
12:29
like 1.75.
12:30  Travis
I'm a 1.3 smartspeed
12:30
guy,
12:32  Alban
I'm up locked in one to
12:32
one ratio, I will let overcast
12:39
do the smart speeds and take out
12:39
the you know the silences the
12:42
middle of words,
12:44  Kevin
do smart speed. 1.5
12:44
minimum usually 1.75. If it's a
12:48
regular, like if the speakers
12:48
just like a normal talking
12:52
person, then it's like 1.75. If
12:52
they're fast talkers, they get
12:55
1.5. How do you like what you're
12:55
looking at me like I'm crazy
13:00
person. You can totally do it.
13:00
You just have it's training.
13:03
It's just like speed reading.
13:03
It's like learning how to read
13:05
fast, you can learn to listen
13:05
fast. And you'll get more
13:08
content. I
13:09  Alban
agree with you on the
13:09
it's like speed reading. But the
13:12
research shows that speed
13:12
readers don't retain the
13:16
information. Well,
13:17  Kevin
let me say it this way,
13:17
speed reading might be a bad
13:19
example. It's not really speed
13:19
reading. It's like Look, when
13:22
you know, the more that you
13:22
read, the faster you read. And
13:26
it's not literally speed
13:26
reading. It's just you can read
13:30
faster than people who don't
13:30
read as much. And I think the
13:32
same thing is true for podcast
13:32
content. Well, I always get in
13:35
my car. And I'm like, how far do
13:35
I have to drive? I gotta drive
13:39
10 minutes. So I can I can
13:39
listen to a 20 minute 30 minute
13:43
podcast episode. So that I mean
13:43
that's just it's just the
13:46
constraints that I have. Like I
13:46
want to finish an episode. I
13:49
gotta listen fast. Here we go.
13:51  Travis
This is this is like the
13:51
by like the podcast listening
13:54
version of biohacking. It's like
13:54
how do I optimize my body for
13:58
peak performance podcast
13:58
listening? Remove silences voice
14:02  Alban
1.7 FM Ferriss unlike to
14:02
x.
14:05  Kevin
I don't listen Tim
14:05
Ferriss much at all. I just
14:07
cherry pick episodes. With Tim
14:07
Ferriss, who's a hard one to
14:11
listen to fast. The ATP guys are
14:11
hard to listen to fast. Any
14:15
roundtable discussions are hard
14:15
to listen to fast because people
14:18
speak at different speeds. And
14:18
so like ATP, you have three
14:22
people and they talk like, Who
14:22
is it? Sarah QC, I think is a
14:27
slow talker. And then Marco and
14:27
no, Casey list is a slow talker
14:32
and Marco and Sarah kusa both
14:32
talk fast. And so that gets
14:36
challenging because your brain
14:36
is like locked into one person
14:39
talking for two or three minutes
14:39
and then you know, a fast talker
14:41
comes in and you're like, Oh,
14:41
no, I get it. I get confused
14:45
with that one. Sometimes I got
14:45
to slow them down.
14:47  Alban
Yeah, this is kind of an
14:47
interesting thing to hear,
14:49
because I've always been of the
14:49
opinion. You know, it's better
14:54
to read half as many books but
14:54
read them more slowly and really
14:58
digest them and I probably We
14:58
think the same on pretty much
15:02
everything. Definitely podcasts.
15:02
And so I've never been a speed
15:05
listener on podcasts or
15:05
audiobooks or anything. And now
15:09
hearing both of you are cranking
15:09
it to x speed, or Travis at 1.3
15:14
plus speed boost. I don't think
15:14
I could. I mean, I think it
15:17
could do it. I just think that I
15:17
wouldn't get as much out of it.
15:20
I
15:20  Kevin
wouldn't remember it. I'm
15:20
looking through my overcast
15:22
right now. And I will tell you,
15:22
I've got the Kimbo, which is
15:25
Seth Godin, his podcast, that
15:25
one is set to 1.2. That looks
15:28
like my slowest. And I'll tell
15:28
you I know why that is. It's not
15:31
because he's a fast talker. It's
15:31
because his concepts are deep
15:34
and complicated. So as he's
15:34
saying it, I have to absorb it
15:38
and digest it and process it
15:38
along with him. And I can't do
15:41
that at 1.5. But if it's just
15:41
conversation, like people listen
15:44
to this podcast, I guess you
15:44
could probably consume this at
15:46
forex.
15:49  Alban
Yeah, that's actually
15:49
what I want. I want to know what
15:52
do people listen to this podcast
15:52
at? They're like, man, it is so
15:56
rambley. Who knows what's going
15:56
on forex is a minimum? Yeah,
16:01  Travis
I guess it depends on
16:01
how good of a job I did editing
16:03
that particular episode. I will
16:03
say this to kind of like wrap up
16:06
this conversation because
16:06
there's a couple other things we
16:08
want to talk about. It does
16:08
depend on the content. So like,
16:11
at one point, I got sucked into
16:11
the the Wolverine podcasts
16:15
stitcher premium was doing,
16:15
which is phenomenal. It's a
16:18
great audio fiction podcast. And
16:18
that was one x 100% with no
16:24
speed boost, no nothing because
16:24
it was like an audio
16:27
masterpiece. And so I wanted to
16:27
like experience it the way that
16:32
the the audio producers and put
16:32
it together. But if it's two
16:34
people talking about like
16:34
business growth ideas, then
16:38
yeah, just give me the high
16:38
level information, the three
16:41
takeaways from the one and a
16:41
half hour discussion. And I'm
16:44
good to go. So it does depend on
16:44
the content. But in general, I
16:48
definitely speed it up.
16:50  Alban
Does ever weird you out,
16:50
Kevin, if you like, have you
16:53
ever talked to somebody that you
16:53
listened to their podcast or
16:56
somehow listened to another app
16:56
that didn't speed it up? Like, I
16:59
feel like it'd be totally
16:59
weirded out if I was listening
17:01
to a 1.3. And you have this idea
17:01
of them just being a super fast,
17:06
very concise speaker. And then
17:06
in real life, they'd be like,
17:10
Well, here's what I think. Oh,
17:10
my gosh, I can't get you at 1.3
17:15
in real life.
17:16  Kevin
Yes, that has happened.
17:16
I've listened to people on
17:18
podcasts. And I've been
17:18
intimidated to go on their show.
17:22
And then when I actually landed
17:22
the interview, it was at a much
17:25
more reasonable pace. I don't
17:25
know that I ever connect the
17:27
dots. But I remember thinking
17:27
like, Oh my gosh, this person is
17:31
such a fast talker and fast
17:31
thinker. And how am I going to
17:34
hang with them? And then we
17:34
actually did it and it was
17:36
totally comfortable and fun. So
17:36
I'm probably it's nothing to do
17:38
with it.
17:38  Alban
Have you ever listened to
17:38
this podcast on 4x?
17:42  Kevin
I listened to me. No, I
17:42
don't think forex is an option
17:44
for my app.
17:45  Travis
But that would be
17:45
craziness. That I'm not it would
17:49
just be boo boo boo. That'd be
17:49
it. That'd be no. no discernible
17:53
words. It'd be like listening to
17:53
Alvin and the Chipmunks that
17:56
sort of be like, you guys are
17:56
the Chipmunks. Or you get to be
17:59
Alvin.
17:59  Alban
I get why Alvin for sure.
18:01  Travis
That's true. And to be
18:01
fair, whenever we run
18:04
transcripts through otter most
18:04
of the time it transcribes Your
18:07
name is Alvin. Not Alvin.
18:10  Alban
I mean pretty much all
18:10
restaurants. That's it. They
18:12
give me to all my to go orders.
18:12
I picked up food last night, the
18:16
guy was like Alvin, you know it.
18:16
Yeah. But he saw the hesitation.
18:20
He's like, Oh, that's not you
18:20
know it. It's probably me. And
18:23
he's like, Oh, yeah, try and
18:23
steal someone's name is Alvin.
18:26
I'm sure that you didn't get
18:26
like if they spelled it wrong.
18:29
That's not. It's probably still
18:29
me. Anyway. So got my Kravis
18:37  Travis
Alvin, last year end of
18:37
2020, you're able to land
18:40
interview with Josh Kaplan,
18:40
which I thought went really well
18:43
tell us a little bit about what
18:43
you talked about with Josh. And
18:46
then we'll roll the actual
18:46
interview. So people listening
18:48
to this episode can really
18:48
capture all the things that you
18:50
discussed.
18:51  Alban
I think Josh, I
18:51
interacted a handful of times on
18:54
Twitter, he was the product
18:54
manager of audio for morning
18:58
brew. And for anybody who
18:58
doesn't know morning brew is
19:00
like one of his super large
19:00
email newsletter comes out every
19:04
morning. And just kind of gives
19:04
you the high points of the news
19:08
in a way that's trying to make
19:08
you smarter and five minutes a
19:11
day. And they've got a really
19:11
good way of writing. I don't
19:16
like the way their emails are
19:16
written. It's very engaging and
19:20
concise. And you do feel kind of
19:20
empowered, like, Oh, I
19:24
understand a little bit more
19:24
about what's going on in the
19:26
story. But anyway, they started
19:26
podcasting. And that was what
19:31
Josh was running. They were
19:31
doing a pot he was producing a
19:33
podcast called business casual,
19:33
and it grew really fast. I saw
19:38
write an article about it. And
19:38
so I just reached out was like,
19:41
Hey, we're, you know, he just
19:41
did this interview with Jordan
19:44
Harbinger where I asked him
19:44
about his podcast, and people
19:47
seem to like it. Would you be
19:47
interested in doing one as well?
19:50
So we recorded it since then, he
19:50
has left morning brew. Then we
19:55
will find out where he is headed
19:55
next. Later,
19:58  Travis
well, he launched it. He
19:58
launched His own products on
20:01  Alban
Twitter he did. We
20:01
actually shared it in our
20:03
newsletter, I think it's called
20:03
like podcasting OS, which is
20:06
just a way. It's just like
20:06
everything he learned about
20:08
podcasting while launching the
20:08
podcast at morning brew. all
20:13
that to say, it was a pretty
20:13
interesting interview about how
20:16
like a pretty large company
20:16
views podcasting, the
20:20
differences between email and
20:20
podcasting, their growth
20:24
strategies, different things
20:24
they tested. And I just kind of
20:28
like these conversations,
20:28
because they feel kind of like
20:32
podcasting masterclasses or
20:32
something for people that are,
20:36
you know, a step above us as far
20:36
as their experience with running
20:40
these really large shows that
20:40
have mass appeal. And being able
20:44
to just kind of pick their brain
20:44
and how they experimented and
20:47
how they built the podcast is
20:47
really useful. And one of the
20:51
things that I love the most is,
20:51
it's so valuable for me to hear
20:57
people who are at like another
20:57
level, you know, the most
21:01
podcasters, expressing when they
21:01
don't understand something
21:04
completely. It's very helpful to
21:04
hear somebody like Jordan
21:08
Harbinger say, I'm not exactly
21:08
sure what I'm doing with this,
21:10
but I'm trying it. And it's very
21:10
easy to see large shows and go,
21:15
Oh, 100%. they've figured this
21:15
out, they've done all this
21:18
testing, they know for sure. And
21:18
they're killing it. And
21:21
sometimes it's really useful to
21:21
hear them say, Oh, I have the
21:25
same doubts you do. I'm just
21:25
going through the
21:27
experimentation in kind of a
21:27
systematic way. And here's what
21:30
I've learned. It's so nice to
21:30
hear that and it's very
21:33
affirming. If you like these
21:33
conversations, I'd love to get
21:36
some feedback on them. And which
21:36
podcasters would you want me to
21:42
interview and kind of pick their
21:42
brain about how they think about
21:45
podcasting? You know, I probably
21:45
can't get Sarah Canuck or Joe
21:50
Rogan on the line, but maybe the
21:50
next tier down. But you know,
21:54
just be interesting to see,
21:54
like, who would you want to
21:56
learn from? So yeah, you know,
21:56
reach out to support if you have
22:00
any ideas or to me on Twitter.
22:02  Travis
And with that, let's
22:02
roll into Alvin's interview with
22:05
Josh Kaplan.
22:12  Alban
Everybody today, on the
22:12
podcast, I have Josh Kaplan.
22:15
Josh is the product manager of
22:15
audio, morning brew. And he's
22:19
the producer of their show
22:19
business casual, it's been just
22:22
over a year since morning brew,
22:22
launched their first podcast
22:25
business casual. And since then
22:25
they've done over 100 episodes,
22:30
with people like Eric Schmidt,
22:30
Mark Cuban Andrew Yang, if you
22:34
scroll through the list, you'll
22:34
recognize a ton of those names.
22:38
And so I invited Josh onto the
22:38
podcast just to pick his brain
22:42
and learn what they've learned
22:42
over the last year, I want to
22:45
hear about how they sell ads,
22:45
how they've grown the podcast,
22:48
and, you know, just pick his
22:48
brain about how to run a
22:51
successful podcast, especially
22:51
when you're doing so much other
22:55
content. So Josh, thank you so
22:55
much for joining me. Happy to be
22:58
here.
22:59  Josh
Thanks for having me.
23:00  Alban
And for people who don't
23:00
know, could you just describe a
23:02
bit of what morning brew does
23:02
and how you launched?
23:05  Josh
Yeah, we'd love to morning
23:05
brew is a business media company
23:08
for the next generation of
23:08
professionals. We started about
23:13
five or so years ago, as a
23:13
company with one daily email
23:17
newsletter that caught you up on
23:17
yesterday's business news, Alex
23:21
and Austin, who founded the
23:21
company, were looking at the
23:23
wall street journal in the New
23:23
York Times. And actually I was
23:26
there at the University of
23:26
Michigan with them as well, when
23:28
they were looking at this. And
23:28
we were all preparing for
23:30
finance, interviews, consulting
23:30
interviews, and you get into an
23:33
interview and they say, How do
23:33
you stay up to date with the
23:35
world and we would all lie and
23:35
say that we read the New York
23:37
Times cover to cover the Wall
23:37
Street Journal cover together,
23:39
Bloomberg. And so instead, Alex
23:39
started writing this PDF and
23:43
turned into a newsletter. That
23:43
was one narrative, open the
23:47
email, get to the bottom of the
23:47
email, then you're good to go,
23:49
no click out, it's no ask for
23:49
additional time, written in the
23:52
way that your friend would
23:52
explain to the business news.
23:55
And that really took off that
23:55
really found the audience that
23:58
found the intention, it was
23:58
valuable. And we've focused on
24:02
that exclusively for a very long
24:02
time and silvius until we
24:06
started to expand our coverage
24:06
area, and the number of mediums
24:09
that we were existing, and
24:09
because we wanted to become a
24:12
media company of the future. And
24:12
so when we got into a couple
24:16
newsletters in and we said,
24:16
well, how are we going to go
24:18
from text based journalism into
24:18
other formats? So Kinzie, who's
24:23
the host of business capital and
24:23
I, we came together and we said,
24:25
How do we go to the next level,
24:25
and we looked at podcasts, and
24:28
people are really excited about
24:28
it. We loved it. People had been
24:31
asking for podcasts. And we
24:31
said, Alright, let's do
24:34
something that doesn't copy,
24:34
keeping you up to date in the
24:37
business world. Let's go a level
24:37
deeper in the headline level. So
24:40
we started to look at the medium
24:40
as a way to tell stories that
24:42
weren't optimal for text. And
24:42
then we just continued on, we
24:45
knew that this was going to be
24:45
the entry point for the company
24:48
into audio and video and we were
24:48
going to keep learning and
24:51
testing new things on different
24:51
platforms. And it's been an
24:53
incredible year since then, that
24:53
we can actually look back and
24:55
say, Wow, we've learned a lot.
24:55
We tried a lot and now each
24:59
additional product There we go
24:59
and release, we can start at a
25:01
much higher place. So it's been
25:01
a really fun time getting that
25:04
far. We love business casual.
25:04
And there's so much more in
25:08
sort. But I love talking about
25:08
anything when it comes to
25:10
growth, revenue, the content
25:10
itself. And yeah, let's see
25:14
where this thing goes.
25:15  Alban
Awesome. I love that you
25:15
stepped up from having this
25:19
incredible newsletter, which a
25:19
lot of people I know at our
25:22
company actually read every day
25:22
read it, cover to cover, and it
25:25
says read the whole thing. I
25:25
read marketing Bru, just to keep
25:29
up on today what's happening in
25:29
the marketing world. And I love
25:33
the moved from newsletters to
25:33
podcasts. Because there is a
25:37
natural, they have some
25:37
similarities, which I think are
25:41
really important. Especially
25:41
with like a shifting media
25:44
landscape. There was a time when
25:44
everybody thought BuzzFeed was
25:50
the media company of the future,
25:50
because they knew how to use
25:54
Facebook to grow. And you can
25:54
now see some just, I mean, kind
25:59
of embarrassing stats for
25:59
BuzzFeed when they can share a
26:03
post sometimes with millions and
26:03
millions of followers on
26:06
Facebook. And it only gets a
26:06
couple 100 interactions. Because
26:11
that audience is controlled by
26:11
Facebook. Still Facebook doesn't
26:15
think it's a good post, they're
26:15
not going to share it with
26:18
everybody. The difference with
26:18
email newsletters, and
26:22
podcasting is there is no
26:22
intermediary, you are going to
26:26
put something out into the
26:26
world, people download it right
26:29
to their podcast apps, or they
26:29
read it right inside their
26:32
email. So is that an intentional
26:32
decision that you made when
26:36
deciding to get into podcasting?
26:38  Josh
Yes, it was intentional,
26:38
you made all the right points
26:41
about why it's such a great
26:41
medium and why it's similar to
26:43
email newsletters, we liked
26:43
being able to go direct to the
26:47
listener or the reader, which is
26:47
what we get. We like having the
26:50
subscription button. as a as a
26:50
company, we really like fitting
26:54
into habits, knowing our
26:54
audience. So it's not a quantity
26:57
play. It's not how can we go
26:57
viral tomorrow, it's how can
27:02
more people find our content, be
27:02
entertained, and learn from it,
27:06
and then incorporate it in their
27:06
morning routine, or in their
27:09
running routine with the podcast
27:09
or the commuting routine with
27:11
the podcast. But we don't want
27:11
to become this endless scroll
27:14
company where we're just
27:14
creating so much content that
27:18
you don't know what to do with
27:18
and we want to be part of it.
27:20
You want to bring people along
27:20
for the adventure. And that's
27:23
why we also do a lot of this
27:23
stuff in public where we tell
27:25
people, what do you want, here's
27:25
what we think we explain the
27:29
whole process of it. So there's
27:29
a lot about the media company
27:33
that we've created, that we can
27:33
look back on and say whether it
27:36
was intentional or not, we
27:36
learned a lot from our
27:38
predecessors, we looked at the
27:38
bus feeds, you see the vices of
27:40
the world, we love axios. We
27:40
love this game, we've learned so
27:44
much from these other big
27:44
players that have shown us what
27:47
to do most of the time, and
27:47
sometimes what not to do. But as
27:50
far as emails and newsletters
27:50
go, we've always been really
27:52
excited about both of those. And
27:52
that's why we've been starting
27:55
with those two, first and
27:55
foremost,
27:57  Alban
the way we decide to do
27:57
all of our podcast content,
28:00
whether it be guides, podcast
28:00
episodes or videos on our
28:03
YouTube channel, we pretty
28:03
consistently are just asking
28:06
people what they need help
28:06
learning. And the two areas that
28:11
keep coming up are how do I grow
28:11
a podcast? And how do I monetize
28:16
a podcast once I've actually
28:16
grown up some of a listener
28:20
base. And I know morning brew
28:20
has done a really good job
28:25
growing the podcast business
28:25
casual. And so I just like to
28:27
hear after a year, how far have
28:27
you been able to grow the
28:31
podcast?
28:33  Josh
Oh, you're getting right
28:33
to it, you know all the dirty
28:36
data and everything that's so
28:36
sacred about it. I wish I had
28:40
more data, right, that's a whole
28:40
nother conversation about how
28:42
hard it is to tell how
28:42
performance is going in
28:45
podcasting and how even a year
28:45
of me paying attention. It still
28:49
baffles me most of the time. But
28:49
what we do know is that every
28:53
week we get around 150,000
28:53
listeners on the entire
28:56
catalogue of the show. And
28:56
another interesting thing to
28:59
talk about is the back catalogue
28:59
and how that's becoming more
29:01
relevant and more important to
29:01
the overall health of the show.
29:04
But we released two episodes,
29:04
one on Tuesday, one on Thursday.
29:08
And each of those by the end of
29:08
the seven day trail, it gets to
29:11
about 25,000. So we're getting
29:11
numbers. And some weeks are
29:16
better than others. It's it's
29:16
not linear, where it might be in
29:19
other mediums. Sometimes you are
29:19
better timed with the guests and
29:24
the theme and what's going on in
29:24
the world. And sometimes you're
29:26
not but because of the library,
29:26
it goes like that. And so on a
29:30
weekly basis 150 K and then
29:30
we've actually just crossed 6
29:33
million total over the lifetime
29:33
of the show. So that's been a
29:37
fun nother million to tally on
29:37
and get to talk about. That's
29:43
those are the those are the high
29:43
level metrics. There's a lot of
29:45
other numbers that I like to
29:45
think about and understand
29:47
whether they're valuable or not.
29:47
But I think that answers the
29:50
main question about how big
29:50
we've grown from day one. And
29:53
I'll answer your next question
29:53
before you ask it. The number
29:55
one growth lever is having a
29:55
newsletter with 1,000,002
29:57
million plus as easy as that As
29:57
hacking the world, and if you've
30:01
got one of those, you should
30:01
start a podcast.
30:04  Alban
So you've heard if you
30:04
want to grow your podcast, just
30:06
go ahead and grow an email
30:06
newsletter to 2 million
30:09
subscribers. And then you're
30:09
golden. We often tell people how
30:12
difficult it is to get a podcast
30:12
to go viral for a lot of
30:17
reasons. And I do like that
30:17
you're using the email
30:19
newsletter kind of saying like,
30:19
it's very difficult to build a
30:22
podcast on its own. And if you
30:22
do have other ways to reach
30:28
people, or ways to people are
30:28
already paying attention to you
30:30
that those should be the primary
30:30
way that you grow your podcast.
30:35
Do you have any, any learnings,
30:35
anything that you've kind of
30:37
discovered along the way of how
30:37
to take a as somebody who's
30:42
reading the podcast and get them
30:42
over? Excuse me, reading your
30:45
newsletter and get them over to
30:45
the podcast?
30:47  Josh
Yes, and I'll preface it
30:47
with another learning is that
30:51
the email newsletter has been
30:51
phenomenal for launching the
30:54
newsletter and sorry, I just
30:54
made the same mistake, launching
30:58
the podcast and gaining brand
30:58
awareness that business casual
31:02
exists, what it is who Kinsey is
31:02
that it's attached to morning
31:05
brew, but it actually doesn't
31:05
convert direct downloads that
31:09
well, because when you open an
31:09
email on the phone in the
31:13
morning, you don't all of a
31:13
sudden have 30 unstructured
31:16
minutes to just listen to the
31:16
interview. That's not how people
31:20
operate. So what we found is
31:20
that we started to advertise
31:23
through the newsletter as time
31:23
has gone on, about the awareness
31:27
of it. Who's coming on this
31:27
week? What are the topics? What
31:29
are the testimonials, and that
31:29
started to pay off better? But
31:34
as far as growth right, getting
31:34
back to growing the podcast
31:37
beyond it outside newsletters,
31:37
can I tap into that? Because I
31:40
have a lot to say that? Yeah,
31:40
absolutely. So there's no silver
31:45
bullet right? When it comes to
31:45
growing these things. It is
31:48
going to it depends on the
31:48
format of your show. But for an
31:51
interview based show, where
31:51
we're keeping up with what's
31:54
relevant in the business world.
31:54
There's a lot of different
31:57
aspects of growth. The one that
31:57
I'll cross off the list is the
32:01
podcast apps. I don't think
32:01
there's a lot of discoverability
32:04
happening on Apple and on
32:04
Spotify right now, we have about
32:07
80% of our listenership on Apple
32:07
about 10% on Spotify 10% goes to
32:12
the rest of the handful of apps.
32:12
And I think there's some really
32:15
exciting stuff happening on the
32:15
technology front. But really, I
32:18
don't think many people are
32:18
discovering the show via the
32:22
apps. At a large scale. I think
32:22
that most of the discoverability
32:26
is happening on social is
32:26
happening through other
32:29
marketing collaborations that
32:29
allows people to drive back to
32:33
our show and then say, Oh,
32:33
right, that does sound like a
32:35
compelling episode to listen to,
32:35
I am going to carve out time for
32:38
my x activity tomorrow, or when
32:38
I'm working the day after. So a
32:44
lot of the marketing a lot of a
32:44
lot. A lot of the growth that
32:46
we've been trying to encourage
32:46
is building on different
32:49
platforms, using the YouTube
32:49
search algorithm, working with
32:53
guests to share throughout their
32:53
companies and throughout their
32:56
followings on social breaking it
32:56
up into little video clips for
33:00
Twitter and Instagram and
33:00
building up their Kinzie going
33:03
on other shows has been
33:03
phenomenal. Kinsey having now I
33:07
think close to 18,000. Twitter
33:07
followers, as we record, this is
33:11
an incredible asset because
33:11
people like following people as
33:14
the intimate medium, it all
33:14
makes sense that people want to
33:17
know the person who's coming up
33:17
with this thing. So we all of a
33:20
sudden have to make this
33:20
relatively complex. But then
33:23
then we can simplify the whole
33:23
thing. But on a week to week
33:26
basis, we're constantly tapping
33:26
on all those different things,
33:29
trying to distribute and show
33:29
why the show is great. And it's
33:33
not just saying go listen to the
33:33
full episode, go subscribe. It's
33:36
achieving the brand mission of
33:36
business casual across all these
33:39
other places. So then when we
33:39
get a new episode, we have a
33:42
much bigger Launchpad to tell
33:42
people about. So that's been
33:45
what has actually been fueling
33:45
more of our growth. And it's not
33:48
like there's hey, here's the one
33:48
thing you got to do all this
33:51
stuff, I think. And so we've
33:51
been hard at work. And I think
33:54
that's what's allowed us to grow
33:54
over the past year to where we
33:56
are today.
33:57  Alban
Okay, so I, I have
33:57
probably about 50 follow up
34:00
questions to this. But let me
34:00
jump into one that kind of
34:04
shocked me. You said that you
34:04
didn't think that the
34:08
discoverability on the apps was
34:08
super important. Which
34:12
definitely surprised me because
34:12
I know you are business casual
34:15
was a Apple new and noteworthy
34:15
show for quite a while. And at
34:21
least looking across all of all
34:21
the podcasts on Buzzsprout. It
34:25
sounds like you are very, very
34:25
Apple heavy. I think our numbers
34:29
say 47% of all listeners happen
34:29
on Apple podcasts. If you're
34:35
saying it's closer to 80.
34:36  Josh
Do you think that chances
34:36
are your numbers? I don't know
34:40
what's going on? I don't know
34:40
why ours are so different. I
34:42
wish I knew
34:43  Alban
could Apple promoted you
34:43
for a new and noteworthy and got
34:47
you a nice Apple bump in the
34:47
beginning.
34:49  Josh
I think that certainly
34:49
held on by the way. And for me
34:53
that's that was now this time
34:53
last year that we were new and
34:56
noteworthy. We launched in
34:56
September, we got new and
34:59
noteworthy We did see a really
34:59
dramatic bump. But I think, I
35:03
don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But
35:03
I would be surprised if that's
35:06
really been such a big indicator
35:06
of why even today, the
35:11
distribution is like that. I
35:11
think it might have to do a
35:14
little bit more with our
35:14
audience if I had to guess, and
35:18
just who they are and how it's
35:18
been. But I don't know, I wish I
35:22
knew. But new note, new and
35:22
noteworthy is an incredible
35:27
growth letter. The thing is, you
35:27
can only do it once. And so
35:30
after that, you got to say,
35:30
well, thank you for that. But
35:32
what's next? And for me, it's
35:32
always been focused on what can
35:35
we build as sustainable
35:35
operations that allow us to
35:38
constantly grow rather than
35:38
hoping that we'll get an apple
35:42
or Spotify promotion in some
35:42
shape or form? Right. And
35:46
they're great to work with, I
35:46
actually love the people on both
35:48
of those teams. But it's a very
35:48
crowded competition to try and
35:51
get those promotions. And maybe
35:51
you get one once every now and
35:54
then. And sometimes you get
35:54
lucky or it makes sense. But I
35:57
think as far as really building
35:57
a sustainable strategy, you got
36:01
to go back to what can you be
36:01
repeatable? What can be
36:03
repeatable? And what can you get
36:03
compound interest out of by
36:05
building up those other
36:05
platforms?
36:07  Alban
Yeah, I, I love that.
36:07
You're saying what kind of
36:10
strategies can you use to get
36:10
that compound interest so that
36:14
things are growing faster and
36:14
faster over time? But because I
36:17
know that everyone watching this
36:17
video, listen to this podcast is
36:20
going to ask, how did you get
36:20
into Apple new noteworthy? Hi,
36:24  Josh
again, the secret is we
36:24
are growing this podcast off of
36:29
a very large brands of morning
36:29
brew, and being able to say,
36:33
Hey, we're gonna put apple at
36:33
the top of the newsletter that
36:37
goes out to however many we had,
36:37
at the time, caught their eye,
36:41
everything I think is a trade
36:41
that nothing's for free, I think
36:45
you always got to say what's in
36:45
it for them. And to say, morning
36:48
brew is launching a new podcast,
36:48
go listen on Apple, it says, oh,
36:52
wow, we're gonna send a good
36:52
amount of audience their way
36:54
maybe. And then I think that
36:54
catches their attention. And we
36:57
use that for guests, we use that
36:57
for a lot of things, because a
36:59
lot of it is leveraging the
36:59
assets we have as a company. And
37:03
being a part of this morning
37:03
brew ecosystem is really, really
37:07
good for business casual. So I
37:07
think that is why I'm sorry that
37:12
anybody listening or watching to
37:12
this that might not be able to
37:16
repeat the same steps. But but
37:16
the whole Apple team is very
37:20
receptive. And I think if you
37:20
say, this is how I'm promoting
37:22
Apple, and this is why I'm
37:22
bringing good content to your
37:27
platform, they will hear you and
37:27
they will work with you as best
37:30
as they can. I won't speak for
37:30
them, but I think they will.
37:34
Yeah, absolutely. I
37:35  Alban
mean, you do want, if
37:35
you're hoping for somebody to
37:38
promote your show, you
37:38
definitely want to show them a
37:40
little bit of what's in it for
37:40
them, that you see them as, you
37:43
know, important player in the
37:43
field. Maybe if you are a
37:47
podcast, that's Apple centric,
37:47
maybe you're looking at using
37:50
the new Apple podcasts embed
37:50
player on your website, which is
37:54
actually sending all your
37:54
traffic to them. And that also
37:58
is just going to increase the
37:58
number of downloads that Apple
38:01
seeing so that it will get
38:01
surfaced a little bit more
38:03
likely they'll see, hey,
38:03
subscriber numbers are really
38:06
shooting up for this podcast,
38:06
maybe we should take a look. One
38:10
of the strategies I saw you
38:10
actually wrote a really great
38:14
blog post on medium when you hit
38:14
your first million downloads. So
38:17
this was January of this year.
38:17
One of the things you talked
38:23
about was creating the right
38:23
calls to action in your content.
38:28
And I think this is specifically
38:28
in your newsletter. Can you talk
38:32
to us a little bit about your
38:32
calls to action for people to
38:36
listen to the podcasts you use
38:36
the phrase? things need to be
38:40
short, negative, and elusive.
38:40
What do you mean by that? And
38:44
give us a little bit of idea of
38:44
what how you think about this
38:47  Josh
short 90 of an elusive
38:47
actually is something is for the
38:50
newsletter opens, which is
38:50
something that if you're doing
38:53
email marketing, for your show,
38:53
or for whatever you're doing, we
38:55
have found and we've a be tested
38:55
and the editorial team and the
38:58
growth team that has been
38:58
focused on the newsletter has
39:01
absolutely perfected this and
39:01
Maureen Brousseau, Jenny Neal,
39:05
they have really broken this
39:05
down to a science where if
39:07
you're short, negative, and
39:07
elusive in the subject line of
39:09
an email, you're going to get
39:09
opened. But what I think we've
39:14
learned from the podcast side of
39:14
things is that that's not
39:17
exactly true. And it's something
39:17
we've learned more recently, we
39:19
used to be cute in the title,
39:19
and try and be elusive and try
39:23
and bring people in when they
39:23
see the title of the podcast.
39:26
And they say, oh, that might be
39:26
interesting. But then we start
39:29
to switch off and on as far as
39:29
house how specific Can you be
39:33
what what is the future of the
39:33
cannabis industry. And when
39:36
we're more obvious business
39:36
casual succeeds, that might not
39:40
be true for every podcast that
39:40
might not be true for every
39:44
audience in particular, but for
39:44
the business casual business
39:47
listener, we have found that
39:47
they want to know what they're
39:50
getting themselves into. And I
39:50
think once you get into the
39:52
audio, then you have to
39:52
storytelling away, that is still
39:56
elusive. That keeps people going
39:56
that people want to stay For the
40:00
entire length of the episode,
40:00
and that's, I think, where you
40:03
can get a little bit more acute
40:03
and a little bit more creative.
40:06
But I think in the show notes,
40:06
and in the episode title, the
40:08
shorter, the more obvious, the
40:08
more information you convey, the
40:11
better off,
40:12  Alban
you'll end up being.
40:12
Interesting. So that aligns
40:16
pretty much with what Apple also
40:16
recommends, we actually just got
40:19
an email. Pretty recently, when
40:19
they're talking about, they just
40:23
released the home pod Mini. And
40:23
they said, you know, it's gonna
40:26
be a lot more likely for people
40:26
to listen to podcasts on these
40:31
devices. And the way one of the
40:31
things they recommend is have
40:34
short, concise titles that
40:34
really let people know what the
40:38
podcast is about. And it sounds
40:38
like that's aligning with what
40:41
you've learned.
40:43  Josh
I think so. Yeah, it's
40:43
already hard to make these
40:47
decisions for such a significant
40:47
amount of time. And if we're
40:51
asking for 35 minutes out of
40:51
someone's day, that's a lot.
40:54
It's a big commitment. So it's
40:54
not as easy as Oh, maybe I'll
40:57
see what's behind this email.
40:57
It's, do I want to buckle up for
41:00
this. And I think that means you
41:00
have to show a bit more. So I
41:03
agree with Apple, we've seen
41:03
what we've tried to test testing
41:06
isn't as easy on the podcast
41:06
front. So it's not as scientific
41:10
as the subject line testing us
41:10
on email. But I would totally
41:13
agree with what you're saying.
41:14  Alban
One of the things that
41:14
you're really good at morning
41:17
brew is repurposing content. I
41:17
feel like everything that you
41:21
share in the newsletter also is
41:21
on social media for the podcast,
41:25
you have really great
41:25
transcripts on the website. And
41:29
you do a really good job of
41:29
getting all that content out on
41:32
what other whatever channel
41:32
people are on. And I guess I
41:37
just want to ask like, how do
41:37
you repurpose content in a way
41:41
that just doesn't make you go
41:41
insane?
41:45  Josh
When you say go insane,
41:45
you're saying from the
41:47
operations of it are from the
41:47
audience making them insane?
41:50  Alban
No, I'm definitely asking
41:50
from the content creators side.
41:53
So for everybody's putting out a
41:53
podcast, and feels this need to
41:58
repurpose across a bunch of
41:58
channels, is there a way to
42:01
systematize that so that they
42:01
don't feel overwhelmed,
42:05  Josh
that they have to promote
42:05
and all these different areas?
42:08
What I believe in podcasting is
42:08
just for long form content is
42:12
that you get your whole full
42:12
length episode. And there's a
42:15
story that comes before the
42:15
episode, why did you choose to
42:18
do it? There's a story that
42:18
comes after the episode. What do
42:21
people think? What did you learn
42:21
after putting it out what kind
42:24
of responses but as far as the
42:24
full episodes go, that's your
42:27
anchor asset. That's your full
42:27
length thing. And then what you
42:30
have to figure out to do, how to
42:30
do is how to atomize it and how
42:33
to take little pieces of it,
42:33
whether it's quote cards, video
42:36
clips, trivia questions, who
42:36
knows, you got to find out what
42:40
works for your show and what
42:40
works for your audience. But you
42:43
got to get as much value out of
42:43
the episode as possible. And
42:47
then you got to redistribute it
42:47
so that other people can enjoy
42:51
and say, Oh, that's a good
42:51
point. That's an interesting
42:54
thesis from that guest. That's
42:54
an interesting to sit statistic,
42:57
I think I'll give this whole
42:57
show a shot, or the other way
43:01
around, where it says, I
43:01
listened to the episode. And now
43:03
I have something to share. Most
43:03
people don't actually share the
43:07
full episode. Because even when
43:07
you send it to a friend, it's a
43:10
hard expectation, hey, humor me
43:10
and give me 45 minutes of your
43:13
time. But if you can say, Hey,
43:13
I'm already on my Instagram app,
43:16
I'm already on Twitter. Let me
43:16
just flip this thing over to my
43:19
friend, then you make it much
43:19
easier to let people show that
43:22
they're a fan of the show. So
43:22
that's more conceptual. But as
43:26
far as the operations go, you
43:26
have your anchor assets, which
43:29
is something that like Kinsey as
43:29
the idea generator in Maryland,
43:32
as the idea generator really
43:32
focused on making the best
43:35
possible full length episode.
43:35
And then what we've done as a
43:39
team, and we'll divvy up the
43:39
responsibilities, I do the
43:41
transcripts. Somebody else does
43:41
this, somebody else does that
43:43
some are freelancers. And we
43:43
say, Hey, can you help us break
43:48
this up into clips? Yeah, I
43:48
mean, from there, you just do
43:51
it. It's not easy. It takes
43:51
time. There's no secret sauce to
43:54
coming up with the right
43:54
captions to finding the right
43:56
clips to do that. I don't know
43:56
the secret to that maybe someone
43:59
has a better way. Some people
43:59
have tried to automate it. I've
44:02
seen these software's that pick
44:02
out based on the word analysis,
44:06
what might be the most
44:06
provocative part of the podcast?
44:09
I don't think we're ready to
44:09
outsource that technology. Maybe
44:14
one day, I would love to get
44:14
that off of my hands. But we
44:17
know best we were there for the
44:17
interview. We were we've seen
44:21
the whole editing process, we
44:21
know what is the most compelling
44:24
snippet, the shorter the better.
44:24
By the way, we found that if you
44:27
try and cut a minute and a half
44:27
for Twitter, that's not good.
44:30
You need like 20 seconds. If
44:30
you're on YouTube, you can then
44:33
allow yourself to go more like
44:33
four to six minutes. But it's
44:36
been a whole education on these
44:36
platforms and why I think I'm
44:39
still podcasting. All of a
44:39
sudden, I have to give myself
44:42
this whole operational and
44:42
strategic education as to what's
44:45
going to work best outside of
44:45
the actual podcasting apps. And
44:48
I think that's a really
44:48
necessary component to growing
44:51
these shows. We cannot just live
44:51
and die by the RSS feed.
44:53  Alban
I think that's
44:53
incredible. And I know that on
44:57
our side, we see a lot of this
44:57
repurposing as a way To get in
45:01
front of new listeners, because
45:01
all the other platforms, all the
45:05
platforms, social media
45:05
platforms, in particular, are
45:09
built to get distribution. And
45:09
but it's mostly like one time,
45:14
you might get lucky something
45:14
goes viral. And you're kind of
45:17
just buying a bunch of lottery
45:17
tickets every time you share
45:20
something on, you know, one of
45:20
these sites, and you're hoping
45:23
this gets a ton of traction, and
45:23
then a bunch of people go, Wow,
45:27
that's actually a really
45:27
interesting point from Ray Dalio
45:30
and I now want to listen to this
45:30
whole interview. Oh, this
45:34
podcast actually is a great
45:34
interview. I'm going to go
45:37
listen to it right away.
45:38  Josh
Yeah, that's, that's the
45:38
name of the game right now.
45:41  Alban
Now, one other things
45:41
you've written about is you
45:44
wrote this great blog post on
45:44
podcast transcriptions. And one
45:48
of the things you wrote I've got
45:48
here is, the real value of
45:51
transcript is for hearing
45:51
impaired users and non English
45:55
first, but it also helps with
45:55
SEO. We really believe in
46:00
transcripts quite a bit at
46:00
Buzzsprout. So I'd like to hear
46:03
how do you think about the value
46:03
of transcripts? And what process
46:07
Do you go through to create
46:07
those transcripts?
46:10  Josh
Totally. I don't know
46:10
which one's more important. It's
46:13
hard to say, really, I want to
46:13
be inclusive, we should be
46:15
thinking excelled accessibility.
46:15
First, I think that's really
46:18
important for all media. So I
46:18
want to say that's just like,
46:21
that shouldn't even be a
46:21
question everybody should be
46:23
enjoying what we put out,
46:23
regardless of wherever you are,
46:27
however you are. So I think,
46:27
whatever, just do it, I found
46:32
somebody on Upwork. Again, this
46:32
is something that people are
46:34
trying to automate with
46:34
software. And I think that day
46:38
will come because that's the
46:38
future. But right now, if we use
46:42
the computer on transcripts,
46:42
there's always some sort of
46:45
mistake, and it doesn't flow
46:45
well as written copy. Because
46:49
there's all these filler words,
46:49
there's all these little things.
46:52
If somebody knows a better
46:52
software that they really think
46:54
works, let me know, I would love
46:54
to try it. But we found somebody
46:57
on Upwork, her name is Dana,
46:57
she's up in Queens, when COVID
47:01
receives, we're gonna all go get
47:01
drinks or something like that.
47:04
But she is just always on the
47:04
ready to transcribe your
47:07
episodes, and she likes the
47:07
content. She gets paid, it's
47:11
great. And so then I take that
47:11
transcript, I put it on the
47:14
website. And so then I can just
47:14
tell that my SEO score by having
47:20
all these big names, all these
47:20
big business, e buzzwords are
47:22
starting to collect a lot of
47:22
weight over time, because the
47:25
audio we know is searchable.
47:25
Now, I've seen a bunch of
47:27
articles about how Google will
47:27
index based on podcasting. But I
47:30
think that, given how easy it is
47:30
to add this to your operations,
47:37
I think it's something that's
47:37
really good from the very first
47:40
point I made, but also to the
47:40
SEO play. I'm not an SEO wizard,
47:44
but I can just tell from my
47:44
Google Analytics, where the
47:47
traffic is coming from, and just
47:47
as the months go by, and my
47:50
search volume that brings people
47:50
into the website continues to go
47:53
up.
47:54  Alban
I love you talking about
47:54
making sure it's accessibility
47:56
first, because that really
47:56
should be table stakes. Like we
47:58
should just assume that we are
47:58
making this content for
48:03
everybody. And, you know,
48:03
there's there's accessibility
48:08
for people who are hearing
48:08
impaired and are just hard of
48:11
hearing. But there's also like,
48:11
let's just get it out there so
48:14
people can share it. And then
48:14
people can go and read it.
48:17
Sometimes people can't listen to
48:17
something, but they could read,
48:21
and they would enjoy just to
48:21
read the podcast right then. And
48:24
it's like we already talked
48:24
about if someone's not a native
48:27
speaker of English, translating,
48:27
that is so much easier when
48:32
there's a well written
48:32
transcript, which well written
48:36
sometimes does not mean
48:36
verbatim. It can actually mean
48:40
editing out segments, probably
48:40
some of the segments that I
48:43
might have just put into this
48:43
answer. Okay, so one last
48:49
promotion strategy I've seen you
48:49
use is a you have a group called
48:54
the podcast promo exchange,
48:54
where if you have excess
48:58
inventory for your ads, you'll
48:58
do a promotion for another
49:02
podcast in exchange for that
49:02
podcast doing a promotion for
49:06
you. So can you tell us a little
49:06
bit about what's happening
49:09
there? Yes, and
49:11  Josh
I've got bad news for you.
49:11
It doesn't work. I've debunked
49:15
myself. So this group is
49:15
fantastic. And there's a slack
49:19
group, you know, a bunch of
49:19
people from legitimate companies
49:22
are in there. Everyone's being
49:22
super helpful to each other and
49:25
welcoming and solve each other's
49:25
problems and connects to all
49:28
sorts of resources, which is
49:28
just really cool for me to be a
49:31
part of them pretty early in my
49:31
career. So to get to be exposed
49:34
to professionals that easily is
49:34
something special and
49:37
unexpected. And for a while, we
49:37
would say hey, if you have
49:41
excess inventory, if you have a
49:41
certain ad space that's
49:44
dedicated to swapping, let me
49:44
know and we'll swap shows
49:49
because what we saw in the
49:49
newsletter world is that cross
49:53
promoting with other newsletters
49:53
was fantastic. If you like email
49:56
newsletters, you're more
49:56
susceptible and more likely to
49:58
like more email newsletter. We
49:58
thought that would drag over the
50:02
audio. And that if you're
50:02
listening to a podcast, you
50:04
would give another podcast a
50:04
shot. There's a couple problems
50:09
with that is that you by
50:09
creating your own ad unit, and
50:14
you don't really know how
50:14
someone's going to deliver your
50:16
show. And so sometimes we would
50:16
do a cross promotion. And they'd
50:19
say, Oh, I heard you on x show
50:19
no way. I can't believe they did
50:23
that for you. I'm like, that
50:23
wasn't great. That was
50:25
marketing. But what we learned
50:25
was that someone hits someone
50:30
Miss, and it was really hard to
50:30
attribute. There are a couple
50:33
tools. And I'm sure I actually
50:33
think you probably can speak to
50:35
this better about the
50:35
attribution side of audio to
50:38
audio. But we were trying that
50:38
and nothing was showing a
50:41
dramatic uptick. So for the six
50:41
months of the year, we did a
50:44
couple million of cross promos.
50:44
And then for the third quarter,
50:48
we backed off, and I haven't
50:48
really seen any sort of dramatic
50:51
shift. And so I again, it's one
50:51
of these data problems that I
50:56
wish I could say, I know
50:56
everything I know that they 100%
51:00
work, which ones do which ones
51:00
do. But I think that the reality
51:03
is that if you don't hear and if
51:03
you don't see anything, it's not
51:06
there. And I've seen and I've
51:06
heard much better signals from
51:09
other marketing, things that
51:09
we've tried to do, like the ones
51:12
that I was speaking to earlier.
51:12
So I've actually backed off of
51:15
the cross promotions, I think
51:15
that the better way is to do a
51:18
real integration, and to have
51:18
the host of another show on your
51:22
show. And then to have our hosts
51:22
have Kinzie go on to another
51:25
show where they can really do it
51:25
justice. And it's a real thought
51:28
through partnership that you
51:28
then put over social, you then
51:31
put over your email you put over
51:31
your podcast, and you really say
51:35
I believe in this integration, I
51:35
think my audience would like
51:38
you, I think your audience would
51:38
like me, we were shelling out a
51:41
lot of cross promos to shows
51:41
that if you asked me today, did
51:44
you think that I was like, I
51:44
don't really think they would
51:46
like it. And so I think it was a
51:46
lot of learning. It was a good
51:51
to make those connections as
51:51
well. We made some friends
51:53
through the process. But it's
51:53
not a strategy that I personally
51:57
am continuing to pursue.
51:59  Alban
Okay, interesting. I've
51:59
so the one of the other videos
52:03
we recently just did was with
52:03
Jordan Harbinger. And for his
52:06
podcast, he said this was the
52:06
main way he was growing. He
52:11
grown the Jordan Harbinger show
52:11
so it'd be interesting to kind
52:16
of compare and contrast. You
52:16
know how he's doing the cross
52:20
promo, and then how you'd done
52:20
it, maybe see if he kind of, you
52:24
know, pull out what the
52:24
differences might have been
52:27
there. I totally feel your pain,
52:27
though, on the being able to
52:33
attribute things, we've been
52:33
completely spoiled by the
52:38
attribution that we can do for
52:38
Facebook ads for Google. There's
52:45
all this ad tech and there a lot
52:45
of it is incredibly creepy, in
52:49
how good it is attracting. And I
52:49
think as marketers, we maybe
52:54
have gotten a little too
52:54
addicted to it. Because as soon
52:57
as you get into a world of
52:57
podcasting where we don't have
53:00
at all, which I think is
53:00
actually times a very good
53:04
thing. It is hard to figure out
53:04
like are it did this purchase of
53:09
a bunch of ads actually lead to
53:09
something for me. It can be
53:13
difficult to tell. So I know you
53:13
have spoken, you know the team
53:18
at Chartwell, and there's a
53:18
really great guys. And I think
53:22
that's probably the best
53:22
software. Is there other
53:24
software that you've used for
53:24
attribution and tracking?
53:28  Josh
Yeah, we use pawn sites as
53:28
well and chargeable moreso on
53:31
the marketing side of things,
53:31
pod sites more on the
53:34
advertising side of things. I
53:34
don't know if that's just by
53:36
happenstance, or if they're
53:36
building their products to
53:39
better target on one side or the
53:39
other. But yeah, the the guys
53:43
are chargeable and pod sites and
53:43
the whole team guys and girls
53:46
over there, everything. They're
53:46
they're doing the podcast Lord's
53:49
work over there. I think it's a
53:49
whole, we could do a whole
53:52
nother episode about whether we
53:52
want the data or not. I think
53:56
somebody got mad at me on
53:56
Twitter, because they were like,
53:59
this whole thing with RSS is
53:59
going down the dark side. I'm
54:03
like, have you heard of Google
54:03
and Facebook? Like, we're
54:06
nowhere close? They're like, you
54:06
still should be diligent. I'm
54:08
like, Yeah, I agreed. But like,
54:08
we got to do business, like we
54:11
got to figure out how to be
54:11
efficient. So I think that what
54:14
we're all doing is like
54:14
complaining, and they're
54:16
actually building a product that
54:16
will solve it. And someone has
54:19
to have vision and says, Okay,
54:19
how are we actually going to
54:22
build some sort of ecosystem
54:22
that respects the user, but also
54:25
tells you when what when your
54:25
work is actually productive?
54:28
Because like the reality in
54:28
which I'm just going to respect
54:30
everyone's privacy, and then,
54:30
you know, never make any real
54:34
attribution or understand what's
54:34
productive and what's not like,
54:37
maybe I think I'm ethical enough
54:37
to slow myself down, but
54:41
somebody else is not going to
54:41
slow themselves down, and
54:43
they're going to take laps
54:43
around me. So I don't know. It's
54:47
something that I think is very
54:47
interesting at large about which
54:49
tools we use. And I think
54:49
somebody has to come in and say,
54:53
This is what the ecosystem
54:53
should look like, where it's
54:56
open, distributed, fair, good
54:56
for everybody. Which is really
55:00
hard. But I think that we're
55:00
still looking for more
55:03
leadership and less complaining,
55:03
when we come down to the
55:05
attribution conversation,
55:07  Alban
there's a solid chance
55:07
that the person complaining had
55:10
a at Buzzsprout email address
55:10
because we've definitely been on
55:13
the we've definitely been on
55:13
the, you know, watch out for a
55:19
lot of the mistakes of the
55:19
internet have been connected to
55:24
some of these creepy ad tech.
55:24
And so I really like what
55:28
Charles was doing. They seem
55:28
like they're trying to do
55:30
everything in the right way. And
55:30
hopefully, we'll continue to
55:34
find a way to let people measure
55:34
the success of their campaigns
55:38
without actually invading
55:38
people's privacy.
55:42  Josh
I've got one more point on
55:42
the ethical ethics of it, is
55:46
that we all think we want all
55:46
this fancy data. But I think
55:50
what we've what I've found out,
55:50
and I love talking to these
55:54
listeners and saw my friends
55:54
now, and some were already my
55:56
friends, but I, me and my team,
55:56
we make these calls, we email
56:00
and we we ask How'd you find out
56:00
about the show? What do you
56:03
like? What do you not like?
56:03
After 20 calls every three
56:06
months, you start to hear the
56:06
same thing. So while we want
56:10
this data, everything, if you
56:10
just dedicate some time to
56:15
getting to know your audience,
56:15
you're going to hear trends.
56:18
Yeah. If you go towards 100,
56:18
true fans, and you listen to the
56:21
audience, and you say, Oh,
56:21
that's how you discovered us.
56:24
Oh, that's what really pissed
56:24
you off, then you can optimize
56:27
the product very authentically
56:27
and very real. Because if you
56:31
ask good questions, how are you
56:31
doing? What did you think? That
56:35
basic stuff, there's no rocket
56:35
science here. But I found that
56:37
you start to hear the same thing
56:37
over and over again. And then
56:40
that leads to a signal and then
56:40
I can optimize from there. So
56:42
some of our best pivots, instead
56:42
of optimizing a little thing
56:46
here and there and trying to
56:46
tweak something digitally. We've
56:49
made massive enhancements to the
56:49
show, because we just gotten on
56:52
the phone and said, What do you
56:52
think? So I don't know, I think
56:55
that there's a lot of other ways
56:55
to go about the end goal of data
57:01
that can be solved with many
57:01
different ways of just there's a
57:06
lot of better ways that are not
57:06
nearly as intrusive, and get you
57:11
to potentially better and bigger
57:11
discoveries.
57:13  Alban
Yeah, I love that. I
57:13
think it's very easy to look at
57:18
numbers as the source of truth,
57:18
and then often miss the stories
57:22
and the people behind those
57:22
numbers. People will tell you
57:26
with a lot more nuance, you look
57:26
at just Google Analytics, you
57:30
can see which site somebody came
57:30
from. But they may tell you, Oh,
57:33
I'd actually been thinking about
57:33
you for months, I'd heard you on
57:36
this podcast, and I watched four
57:36
YouTube videos. Then I saw a
57:39
retargeting ad. And then I
57:39
finally was on this website, and
57:42
I clicked the link, you're gonna
57:42
get a lot more data, and a
57:45
little bit more understanding of
57:45
somebody's purchasing decision,
57:49
if you talk to them versus just
57:49
seeing the one data point of
57:53
them coming to make the
57:53
purchase. So I know we've used
57:57
over an hour of your time, do
57:57
you have time for some rapid
58:00
fire questions? Before we go?
58:02  Josh
Surely, let's do it.
58:03  Alban
All right. So what advice
58:03
would you give to new podcasters
58:07
just starting out,
58:08  Josh
get to know your audience
58:08
and give them value whether it's
58:11
entertainment, education, both
58:11
give them something, solve a
58:15
pain point, and then keep on
58:15
going. And then just obsess over
58:18
your audience and worry about
58:18
everything else. Second, they
58:21
will help you grow they will
58:21
help you monetize, know the
58:24
audience, make them the happiest
58:24
people they've ever been.
58:27  Alban
Is it too late to start a
58:27
podcast? Hell, no.
58:31  Josh
That's it. That's the
58:31
answer. It's not too late. Make
58:34
content everyone should be
58:34
expressing themselves. tell your
58:36
story to tell whatever story you
58:36
think you need, it goes out, but
58:39
also put it in other places
58:39
don't live and die by the RSS
58:42
feed. YouTube is your friend.
58:42
Audio grams are okay, if you can
58:46
get video if you can get
58:46
animation somehow find a
58:49
freelancer online, get creative,
58:49
iterate on top of it, make your
58:53
content, put it in both places,
58:53
see what goes well. And then
58:57
keep going. You might start with
58:57
a podcast and then end up with a
58:59
video you might start with a
58:59
video and end up with a podcast.
59:01
As long as you're expressing and
59:01
storytelling and using
59:04
Buzzsprout then you're good to
59:04
go.
59:07  Alban
Should businesses be
59:07
creating their own podcasts?
59:11  Josh
Yes. I again, it's people
59:11
should be expressing themselves
59:15
but businesses should be owning
59:15
their own media properties. I
59:18
think I'm saying this as a media
59:18
company that wants your
59:20
advertising dollars. Own your
59:20
own media channels. They this
59:24
this is the future this is the
59:24
future of real estate it's
59:26
better than having a quarter
59:26
property in New York City. It's
59:29
all about having your own
59:29
audience and distribution and
59:33
catalog of content so you can
59:33
distribute without constantly
59:36
paying somebody else to do it
59:36
for you. So I think the sooner
59:40
these companies and most
59:40
companies b2b b2c, bring in
59:44
media as a cornerstone the same
59:44
way you have marketing the same
59:47
way you have revenue and this
59:47
and product and engineering. I
59:50
think everyone for internal
59:50
communications for thought
59:53
leadership and and being a
59:53
champion of your employees for
59:56
customer acquisition for
59:56
customer retention. Own your
59:59
media. Everyone should be making
59:59
content. This is the future.
1:00:04
That's my biggest thesis right
1:00:04
now that I'm super excited
1:00:07
about, but 100% start a podcast.
1:00:09  Alban
Well, thank you so much.
1:00:09
We really appreciate you coming
1:00:12
on to the podcast slash YouTube
1:00:12
video thing that we're doing.
1:00:17
And just sharing all these
1:00:17
insights you've learned, because
1:00:20
there's not a ton of podcasts
1:00:20
that are doing as well as you
1:00:23
have been doing. If people want
1:00:23
to learn more about morning
1:00:27
brew, or the podcast business
1:00:27
casual, or just learn more from
1:00:32
you, in particular, where would
1:00:32
you direct people to go?
1:00:35  Josh
They've probably heard
1:00:35
enough of me. But if you want
1:00:37
more of my random thoughts go, I
1:00:37
think I've been putting out more
1:00:40
of my stuff through Twitter, I
1:00:40
should write another medium blog
1:00:43
posts of some sort. But follow
1:00:43
me on Twitter. I'm Jay Kaplan
1:00:46
one, check out business casual
1:00:46
and podcasting follow Kinsey
1:00:50
grant at Kinsey grant on Twitter
1:00:50
as well. The show itself
1:00:53
explores a different relevant
1:00:53
business trend each week. And I
1:00:57
think that we're doing an
1:00:57
awesome job bringing on really
1:00:59
smart people to answer our
1:00:59
questions to explore that part
1:01:02
of the business world. So give
1:01:02
that a shot. Give me a follow,
1:01:05
reach out, say hi. And yeah,
1:01:05
thank you so much for having me
1:01:09
on. This is really fun. It's
1:01:09
nice to step out from behind the
1:01:13
scenes and to be the one on it.
1:01:13
It's super weird, but I
1:01:16
appreciate it. And thank you so
1:01:16
much.
1:01:18  Alban
Well, thanks again.
1:01:18
Hopefully, in the future, maybe
1:01:20
hit another 10 million
1:01:20
downloads. We'd get you back on
1:01:23
to share even more things that
1:01:23
you've learned. Sounds great.
1:01:27
We'll see you there.