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Proven Growth Tactics with Jordan Harbinger [transcript]


In this bonus episode, Jordan Harbinger shares his top tips for interviewing guests, growing your podcast, and turning your show into a meaningful side hustle.

Links:

  • Watch the conversation on our YouTube channel
  • Listen to "The Jordan Harbinger Show"
  • Jordan's mini-course on how to be a great interviewer

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2020-12-25  56m
 
 
00:00  Travis
So we hope you're having
00:00
a great time with your family
00:02
celebrating the holidays
00:02
together, and looking forward to
00:05
the end of this year and the
00:05
beginning of the next year. And
00:08
we wanted to drop this special
00:08
bonus episode into the Buzzcast
00:11
podcast feed. So you could hear
00:11
this really phenomenal interview
00:15
that Alvin did recently with
00:15
Jordan Harbinger. If you don't
00:18
know Jordan, Harbinger is one of
00:18
the top podcasters in the world.
00:23
And Alvin got to sit down and
00:23
pick his brain for close to an
00:25
hour about podcast growth
00:25
tactics, how to monetize and
00:30
really how to be a phenomenal
00:30
interviewer. We also posted a
00:33
video version of this interview
00:33
on our YouTube channel. And so
00:37
if you want to see Alvin and
00:37
Jordan interact, and you want to
00:40
check out the other videos that
00:40
we have there as well, then you
00:42
can click the link in the show
00:42
notes to watch the video version
00:45
of this conversation. We hope
00:45
you enjoy this bonus episode of
00:48
Buzzcast. Enjoy the holidays and
00:48
we see you next Friday for the
00:51
first episode in 2021. All
00:51
right, I'm
01:01  Alban
here with Jordan
01:01
Harbinger Jordan, you are the
01:03
host of the Jordan Harbinger
01:03
show. Your podcast was best of
01:07
2018 by Apple. And you've
01:07
quickly grown to over 6 million
01:12
downloads per month while
01:12
interviewing people like Coby
01:14
Bryan. Malcolm Gladwell, Chelsea
01:14
Handler Neil deGrasse Tyson, you
01:20
are at least like sometimes I go
01:20
to podcasts. Maybe you're like
01:23
podcast royalty, you are the
01:23
podcaster Oh, geez.
01:27  Jordan
Yeah, it's kind of
01:27
funny. I mean, there was no such
01:30
thing as the podcasting
01:30
industry. When I started really,
01:32
you know, there was like a
01:32
couple of small, small, small,
01:36
basically hobby businesses that
01:36
later evolved into hosting
01:40
companies. But there were no
01:40
networks to be had. There was
01:43
nothing like that there wasn't
01:43
even YouTube. So nobody was
01:45
thinking about repurposing
01:45
content where for what Twitter,
01:49
I mean, there was nothing that
01:49
was going to happen. And for a
01:52
lot of people who were
01:52
podcasting, called the internet,
01:55
radio, and other people who were
01:55
podcasting. Were just like, this
01:59
is where I upload my talks from
01:59
my journalism course, or
02:05
whatever, right? Or buy it
02:05
course. So there wasn't the
02:09
concept that you would have a
02:09
show like a radio show that was
02:12
designed to be downloaded later,
02:12
and never live stream that was
02:15
kind of brand new back then.
02:17  Alban
Yeah, you actually
02:17
started podcasting in 2005. So
02:21
depending on when you started in
02:21
the year, that might mean that
02:24
you actually were podcasting
02:24
before iTunes even had podcasts?
02:28
Right.
02:29  Unknown
I think when we started
02:29
it was it did have podcasts as
02:33
far as I know. But it was all a
02:33
text navigating It was a text
02:38
directory, you couldn't just
02:38
like type in something into the
02:40
search bar, at least I don't
02:40
think so. And you you if you did
02:43
hit you to match, like an exact
02:43
title. And then all there was no
02:47
cover art or anything like that,
02:47
like album art that you would
02:50
you wouldn't see that for
02:50
podcasts. So it would be like
02:52
you click on podcasts, and it
02:52
would open up this little sheet.
02:55
That'd be like arts,
02:55
entertainment, news, whatever.
02:57
And then you'd click on that,
02:57
and then it would sort of like,
03:00
go into the next thing, it was
03:00
really just a text based, it was
03:03
just a summary where you kind of
03:03
run through a tree, that was the
03:06
word I was looking for, as a
03:06
tree. And you'd have to dig
03:09
seven categories deep in the
03:09
tree. And then I don't even know
03:13
if there were rankings or
03:13
anything like that. Back then
03:15
there was just a list of
03:15
available shows. And there were
03:18
like five in the category that I
03:18
was in five.
03:21  Alban
That's incredible. And
03:21
you've actually got some super
03:24
interesting stories of when you
03:24
launched, you were like you
03:28
weren't on a hosting platform,
03:28
because there was pretty much
03:30
nobody around you were doing
03:30
this all yourself on like FTP
03:33
server.
03:34  Unknown
Yeah, we had a shared
03:34
GoDaddy server that was like a
03:37
virtual server, which is
03:37
probably, you know, like a 486,
03:40
or something like that. Or quad
03:40
core or whatever it was back
03:45
then. And I remember, like, the
03:45
downloads were slow, because the
03:48
internet was slow. And most
03:48
people still had dial up anyway.
03:51
And, you know, we, we just put
03:51
our files up there on what was
03:54
essentially a web server that we
03:54
didn't have CDN hosting
03:58
platforms or anything like that,
03:58
we would just put it up on the
04:01
same server where we'd be
04:01
running. I guess it was
04:03
WordPress, even back then. Or
04:03
whatever the cat wasn't
04:08
WordPress, whatever it was back
04:08
then. And then you just link the
04:11
mp3 and the mp3 files would be
04:11
in the same directory as like
04:13
all the images for your website.
04:16  Alban
That's easy.
04:17  Unknown
Yeah, it was wild. And
04:17
people would be like, Hey, this
04:19
is going really slow for me
04:19
like, Oh, I'm kind of out of
04:21
bandwidth. It's the end of the
04:21
month, try trend three days.
04:25  Alban
Oh, my gosh, that's
04:25
awesome. I definitely remember
04:28
there's old days of downloading
04:28
podcasts, and you're putting
04:30
them onto your iPod. And then
04:30
you go out and you listen to him
04:33
for a while. And it was
04:33
definitely just a different
04:37
world. Because if people listen
04:37
to podcasts, which almost nobody
04:40
did, it was like the same three
04:40
podcasts that you are listening
04:43
to at the same time.
04:45  Unknown
Yeah, pretty much.
04:45
Yeah, there were so many people
04:48
that told us well, first of all,
04:48
nobody knew what podcasts were
04:51
and then it was like, people
04:51
listen to something with tech.
04:55
And then they'd have like one or
04:55
two other shows. And there were
04:58
a lot of like, gimmicky video
04:58
podcasts back now to with people
05:03
making drinks or like ask a
05:03
ninja where there's like you're
05:06
some guy in a ninja suit, just
05:06
filming himself in his garage or
05:10
whatever. And he would give
05:10
ninja answers to whatever
05:13
question. And it was just
05:13
bizarre because like, that was
05:16
huge, right? And I remember
05:16
hearing that that guy had gotten
05:19
like, 1000s of downloads, and I
05:19
was like mind blowing, oh my
05:22
gosh, that's amazing. But like,
05:22
I don't think anybody sponsored
05:26
it or anything, it just kind of
05:26
slowly died, you know?
05:28  Alban
Yeah, I've totally forgot
05:28
the days of where it was, like
05:31
cool to talk about ninjas, and
05:31
pirates and the early 2000s. So
05:37
you've seen podcasting grow from
05:37
when you started, like, 1000
05:40
podcasts to now we're at like
05:40
1.5 million. And I know a lot of
05:46
our audience are new podcasters
05:46
or people who are just about to
05:50
launch a podcast? Is there still
05:50
space for these people?
05:54  Unknown
Yeah, I think that
05:54
there is because look,
05:56
everything starts off hyper
05:56
niche. The Jordan Harbinger show
05:59
is not very niche anymore. One
05:59
week, I have like a mafia
06:02
enforcer. And the next week,
06:02
I've got some retired general
06:06
who's talking about cyber
06:06
security and cyber warfare. And
06:09
then the week after that, I've
06:09
got somebody talking about
06:11
election interference. And then
06:11
the week after that, I've got a
06:14
celebrity honor of some kind. So
06:14
it's very much a variety show. I
06:17
don't necessarily recommend
06:17
people do that. That's too
06:19
general. That's a personality
06:19
driven show which you you get
06:23
you kind of build the ability to
06:23
do that over time. Right. So
06:27
like, that's the same reason I
06:27
named it the Jordan Harbinger
06:30
show people go, Oh, you should
06:30
have named it something
06:31
descriptive. People are actually
06:31
doing enough searching for
06:34
Jordan Harbinger in iTunes, or
06:34
in podcast directories that it
06:38
makes sense. But if you're just
06:38
starting out, you shouldn't have
06:41
the john doe show because no
06:41
one's really searching for that
06:44
you should have the indoor
06:44
interior decorator show or
06:49
whatever it is that it's about,
06:49
because and that's what you
06:51
should generally stick to doing.
06:51
So yeah, there's a million and a
06:54
half podcasts. But there's
06:54
probably only a handful about
06:58
pickling vegetables, or
06:58
beekeeping or what actly. And
07:02
you can compete in those niches.
07:04  Alban
So how would you tell
07:04
people to pick a topic because
07:08
you started out in a nice way
07:08
you were kind of doing just like
07:12
relationship advice. And you
07:12
were kind of talking about
07:14
psychology and talking to people
07:14
and networking. And then you
07:18
rebranded from the old show to
07:18
the Jordan Harbinger show. How
07:22
did you decide to make that
07:22
move? And like, how can people
07:25
kind of follow that when they
07:25
are trying to pick their own
07:27
topic?
07:28  Unknown
Yeah, picking a topic
07:28
was tough. Early on, I was
07:31
actually teaching a course about
07:31
networking. And I kept having
07:34
new people show up. And I was
07:34
like, Alright, I need a way to
07:37
get them the old lectures,
07:37
basically. But I'm not in a
07:40
classroom with these can be
07:40
filmed. I don't have any
07:43
resources for that. Why don't I
07:43
record them, so I was recording
07:46
them. But there was no way to
07:46
distribute them. So there was
07:49
nothing really for me to do. So
07:49
I burn them to CD, I was giving
07:52
away the CDs asking for the CDs
07:52
back. People weren't giving me
07:54
the dang CDs back. So then I was
07:54
like, fine, they're five bucks,
07:57
and you get your money back if
07:57
you bring it back. And then
07:59
people were like, great, I need
07:59
seven, then what do you need
08:02
seven, four, I want to give them
08:02
to my brother, my roommate did.
08:04
So then I was like, Okay, I'm
08:04
onto something here. So I raised
08:07
the price to 20 bucks, people
08:07
kept buying him and I thought,
08:09
I'm not going to get rich, 20
08:09
bucks at a time. What I need to
08:12
actually do is give this stuff
08:12
away for free, and then charge
08:15
for more advanced coaching and
08:15
things like that. So I I started
08:19
uploading the files to create
08:19
what became the podcast. And
08:23
that was the beginning. And then
08:23
that was like the very, very
08:27
start of what became a lead
08:27
generator for my business. And
08:31
then I became essentially a
08:31
coach for dating and
08:34
relationships and networking and
08:34
things like that. And then as
08:37
the show evolved, and I got sick
08:37
of that stuff, because I was
08:40
engaged or whatever, or dating
08:40
somebody for years on end, or
08:44
just sick of it. Because you
08:44
know, you grow out of that
08:47
stuff. When you're in your mid
08:47
to late 30s or early 30s.
08:50
Whatever it was, I just started
08:50
getting other opportunities
08:53
where people would go, you know,
08:53
it'd be cool. My friend does
08:55
this really cool thing. You
08:55
should try to test a new episode
08:59
like that. And I remember
08:59
interviewing this guy that I
09:01
knew, who was a drug dealer,
09:01
former drug smoker, not
09:05
smuggler, but he grew marijuana,
09:05
and then he got caught with like
09:08
a huge amount of marijuana. And
09:08
then he told the story. And
09:12
people were like Mind blown,
09:12
they'd never heard anything like
09:15
that, because you didn't put
09:15
stuff like that on TV was too
09:18
racy, certainly wasn't on the
09:18
radio, there was kind of no
09:21
place for people to tell those
09:21
kinds of stories. So I was
09:24
having them on my podcast. And
09:24
then I quickly found when I
09:27
asked people what they loved
09:27
about the show, they like I like
09:29
episode this this this and oh my
09:29
god, that woman, a guy who grew
09:32
marijuana and then barely got
09:32
away with that was so
09:34
interesting. So then every month
09:34
or so, I would have one of these
09:38
sort of offbeat shows, and with
09:38
a gang member or something like
09:42
this, and people were like,
09:42
these are so cool. And then I
09:45
sort of lost interest in all the
09:45
dating and relationship stuff.
09:48
And I just became more
09:48
interested in talking about what
09:50
whatever it was that I wanted to
09:50
discuss with the guests that I
09:53
wanted to have in the audience
09:53
started to grow. And I started
09:57
to get a nice diverse group of
09:57
people and I could Kind of last
10:01
10 or 15% of people to because
10:01
they were like, Oh, this used to
10:03
be about dating. And now it's
10:03
like kind of a potpourri. And
10:06
I'm not really into that. But I
10:06
noticed that far more people
10:09
were like, Hey, this is really
10:09
interesting now that you have
10:12
just more going on, because
10:12
sometimes I don't want to hear
10:15
about dating, relationships,
10:15
networking, I'm just kind of in
10:18
for whatever you want to do. You
10:18
no surprise me, Jordan. And then
10:21
it was like, Okay, now I've
10:21
earned the right I've got enough
10:24
interview skill after at that
10:24
point, you know, a few years in,
10:28
where I can make a lot of
10:28
interesting, I can find
10:31
interesting people using the
10:31
networking skills that I'm
10:33
teaching, like, I still teach
10:33
them the Jordan Harbinger show.
10:35
So finding people, and then
10:35
getting them to open up and tell
10:38
their story, that alone was a
10:38
skill. So I was like, this is a
10:41
perfect medium for this. And now
10:41
we find that to be true with
10:44
podcasts in general, right?
10:44
People love telling stories and
10:46
getting stories out there. Back
10:46
then there just kind of wasn't a
10:49
place where you could hear a
10:49
drug dealer, candidly tell his
10:52
story. Because you'd, you might
10:52
get something on TV, and then
10:56
they black out their face. But
10:56
with podcasting, I'm like, I'm
10:59
just recording your voice. And
10:59
they're like, Well, in that
11:01
case, let me tell you about
11:01
being a cartel Hitman, you're
11:03
never gonna find me. I'm not
11:03
even telling you my real name.
11:06
So I get stories like that. And
11:06
people would just share them.
11:09
And I realized my audience was
11:09
going way up. And then when I
11:12
would hit those same new people
11:12
with dating and relationships,
11:15
advice, they were like, Whoa,
11:15
that's really interesting. How
11:17
do I buy your products and
11:17
services. So that became a
11:21
really good lead gen source. And
11:21
I did that for years and made a
11:24
lot of money doing it. But then
11:24
I kind of realized, I'm not just
11:27
doing this for lead gen. lead
11:27
gen is like the least favorite
11:30
part sales, marketing these
11:30
courses, doing all these
11:33
workshops. That's actually the
11:33
part that I like the least. I
11:36
really like doing the lead gen.
11:36
And then my partners and I
11:38
slowly grew apart, up and until
11:38
I was like, Hey, I really just
11:41
want to leave. And then we had a
11:41
split. And I started the Jordan
11:46
Harbinger show, basically from
11:46
scratch, but not really because
11:50
I had my network my skills, my
11:50
guest roster, you know, things
11:53
like that. So now I I'm
11:53
unchained, I'm unplugged, no
11:57
strings attached.
11:59  Alban
I love where you're
11:59
talking about. It was always to
12:02
serve a purpose that you got
12:02
into podcasting, you were trying
12:06
to figure out a way to get a
12:06
message out to the world that
12:08
people are obviously already
12:08
interested in, they wanted to
12:11
buy the CDC went, Okay, it's
12:11
easier to get this up on a
12:14
website, maybe it's kind of like
12:14
it was what became podcasting.
12:19
And then you're like, Oh, I'm
12:19
just testing out new guests. And
12:22
then eventually that turns into
12:22
the Jordan Harbinger show. I
12:27
think one of the red flags we
12:27
see a lot, and I want to hear if
12:30
this is what you think is a red
12:30
flag is people go, I'm gonna do
12:33
a show like Joe Rogan, or Tim
12:33
Ferriss, or Jordan Harbinger.
12:37
And I interview the world's most
12:37
interesting people. I mean, what
12:41
Who are the people who shouldn't
12:41
be starting a podcast? Maybe
12:43
that's what I should ask.
12:44  Unknown
Yeah, that's really not
12:44
a great idea. Because that's
12:47
kind of like saying, I just want
12:47
to hear my own voice or use this
12:50
as a conduit to talk to
12:50
interesting people. That is
12:54
fair, in a way, but it's not a
12:54
good way to set yourself apart,
12:58
it's not a good way to build
12:58
value for your audience. You
13:00
know, when I first started, if I
13:00
wanted to use my podcast for
13:03
networking purposes, which I did
13:03
all the time, great, but most
13:06
people didn't know what podcasts
13:06
were, they'd never gotten
13:09
invited onto a podcast before.
13:09
It was a good audience for them
13:13
to talk to. Now you got people
13:13
with 19 downloads an episode and
13:17
you know, bless them, you got to
13:17
start somewhere. But they're
13:19
going and trying to pitch
13:19
celebrities and authors. And
13:23
they're like, I have 4000
13:23
downloads, you know, or 30,000
13:27
downloads, and they don't tell
13:27
you, it's 30,000 downloads over
13:30
three years, right? They tell
13:30
you, so there's all this sort of
13:33
misleading data, and they're not
13:33
thinking my listeners are gonna
13:36
love this, they're thinking, I'm
13:36
going to get a killer selfie for
13:39
the gram. Yep. When I meet up
13:39
with some sort of, you know,
13:43
Dwayne, Wade, or whatever. And
13:43
that wastes a lot of people's
13:46
time, and sours them on this.
13:46
And it also doesn't really do
13:50
anything for you, because people
13:50
think I'm doing great networking
13:52
with my podcast. But if people
13:52
don't have a good experience
13:55
with you, or have a mediocre
13:55
experience, or you commoditize
13:57
yourself by asking all the same
13:57
questions they've heard
13:59
everywhere else, that person
13:59
doesn't remember you, they don't
14:02
have a great experience. So if
14:02
you don't have a good show idea,
14:05
and your show ideas, just this
14:05
vague, I'm going to talk to
14:08
interesting people, because it's
14:08
fun for me, go ahead and do it.
14:11
But don't trick yourself. Don't
14:11
delude yourself into thinking,
14:16
I'm going to monetize this and
14:16
then I'm going to be able to
14:18
quit my job. You may do that,
14:18
but it will take you seven or
14:24
eight years, at least. The first
14:24
seven years that I did the
14:29
podcast, I don't think we had
14:29
any ads. Really, in fact, I
14:33
think the first eight years and
14:33
some of that was a function of
14:35
there just not being any money
14:35
in podcast ads, period. Now,
14:39
though, you still need something
14:39
like 5000 to 10,000 downloads an
14:43
episode before even the even
14:43
those like automated platforms
14:47
will really put an ad on your
14:47
show because it's just too much
14:50
work for them to monitor any
14:50
other way. And bear in mind, you
14:53
know, this is no secret to your
14:53
audience, probably. But you're
14:56
getting 25 bucks CPM. And that's
14:56
great. That's gross. So that's
15:00
like what you share with the
15:00
person who sold the ad, right.
15:03
So if you're getting 25 bucks,
15:03
let's call it, you're probably
15:05
getting 15. So you're getting 15
15:05
bucks, you need 10,000 listeners
15:09
to get 150 bucks for that ad,
15:09
you're not quitting. First of
15:13
all, 10,000 is a lot more people
15:13
than it sounds like it's not
15:15
like getting 10,000 Instagram
15:15
followers, this is that that
15:18
could take you years, most
15:18
people never even come close to
15:21
that. The top 1% have 30,000
15:21
listener downloads per episode I
15:25
think is the top 1%. And so
15:25
let's say you have 30,000 here
15:29
in the top 1%. Now you're
15:29
getting 450 bucks and add, if
15:32
you're releasing a weekly show,
15:32
you're not even probably paying
15:36
your mortgage depends on where
15:36
you live, you're probably paying
15:39
your mortgage, that's great, but
15:39
you're in the top 1% imagine
15:42
being in the top 1% of
15:42
basketball players, you're
15:44
making millions of dollars in
15:44
the NBA, you're in the top 1% of
15:47
attorneys, you're making a huge
15:47
amount of money as a partner in
15:50
a major firm, you know, so you
15:50
have to be in the top 1% of
15:53
podcasting to like breakeven,
15:56  Alban
break over your hosting
15:56
gas,
15:58  Unknown
cover the hosting fees
15:58
to in forget about having a co
16:01
host, you know and forget about
16:01
like going out to eat more than
16:04
once in a blue moon like this is
16:04
not a way to make a living very
16:08
much in the beginning. And I
16:08
don't get I don't want to
16:10
discourage people. I just want
16:10
people to be realistic. Because
16:13
I think a lot of people look at
16:13
Joe Rogan and go oh my god $100
16:15
million Spotify deal. How hard
16:15
can it be? He just smokes pot
16:19
and talks to people I can do
16:19
that. I smoke. That's not quite.
16:24
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's
16:24
not quite what's going on there.
16:26
You know?
16:27  Alban
Alright, so I love You're
16:27
already starting to kind of hint
16:30
towards this. Growing a podcast
16:30
to the level that you're at, is
16:35
remarkable. Most people are not
16:35
even within two standard
16:40
deviations of this. I mean, you
16:40
are with this tip. And you're 6
16:44
million downloads a month. What
16:44
should people be thinking about?
16:48
I mean, I'd love to hear like,
16:48
what are your growth strategies?
16:50
What have you done to grow the
16:50
Jordan Harbinger show.
16:54  Unknown
So I've done everything
16:54
that you can possibly imagine I
16:57
tried social ads, they don't
16:57
convert very well, you end up
16:59
paying a lot for like a click
16:59
that maybe the person
17:03
subscribes. Or maybe they don't
17:03
even download anything, they
17:05
just go, oh, that tried to open.
17:05
I don't know, this podcasting
17:08
app on my phone. Close, right.
17:08
That's not what you want. I've
17:13
tried going on a bunch of other
17:13
shows, that works, you know,
17:16
going on as many shows as
17:16
possible. But it's also not
17:19
scalable, right. Like, if I'm
17:19
going on a show, let's say I get
17:22
100 new listeners, every time I
17:22
go on a show that has over
17:26
10,000 new listeners, I've got
17:26
to go on a show that's in the
17:30
top, let's say 5% of podcasts.
17:30
In terms of size, I've got to do
17:36
that how often to get 100 new
17:36
listeners, I'd have to do that
17:39
like twice a day, to get
17:39
reasonable growth of my show
17:43
that's really, really, really,
17:43
really tough. It's not possible
17:47
period, it's just not you. And
17:47
also you run out of shows that
17:50
are willing to interview people
17:50
after a couple of weeks at that
17:54
rate, because you know, the
17:54
logistics of hiring. So the
17:56
thing I've really settled on
17:56
right now, and this is not for
17:59
necessarily like beginners. The
17:59
thing I've settled on right now
18:03
is advertising on other
18:03
podcasts. That's what I've been
18:06
doing. I actually I wouldn't say
18:06
I started an agency, but I have
18:10
a couple of big clients that are
18:10
interested in growing their
18:13
show. But you do need a budget
18:13
of like $10,000 a month to
18:17
really move the needle in a way
18:17
that makes sense to have
18:19
somebody like me help you. But I
18:19
use products like chargeable to
18:22
track attribution, I buy and I
18:22
negotiate bulk rates on networks
18:27
for my clients. Because if
18:27
everybody spends big, then you
18:31
can get the cpms down really
18:31
low. That's how agencies work.
18:34
So I've started doing that. And
18:34
at large scale, I realized, oh
18:38
my gosh, if you get the CPM down
18:38
low enough, you can get 300 400
18:42
new listeners per day. And if
18:42
you get enough impressions
18:46
going, then you start to see a
18:46
real snowball effect. And nobody
18:51
else is really doing this right.
18:51
Like that's some of the ways
18:53
that I do that is quote unquote,
18:53
trade secret. But it's not
18:55
rocket science, I'll tell you,
18:55
it's been very tough to get it
18:59
going. The tools are really
18:59
rudimentary. Even things like
19:02
that I'm using to to buy or
19:02
track the ads are not
19:05
necessarily finished products
19:05
yet. But that's the stuff that
19:09
really works. And again, not for
19:09
beginners. But for companies and
19:12
individuals who happen to just
19:12
want to grow their show. Like if
19:16
you're, if you own a solar
19:16
company, and you do lead gen
19:20
with your podcast, and you can
19:20
afford to make it a loss leader
19:24
than growing with ads don't the
19:24
whole like repurpose content and
19:28
post it on LinkedIn. That it's a
19:28
really small game. It sort of
19:32
works but it kind of doesn't you
19:32
know, you pay 1500 bucks a month
19:35
to get everything repurposed to
19:35
Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram,
19:38
tik tok, you get a couple 100
19:38
listeners for it, just by ads,
19:42
you're gonna get twice as much
19:42
ROI it's all trackable, and you
19:45
don't have to have six interns
19:45
in Malaysia posting things and
19:50
making noise on social media.
19:50
Right. So it's, it's a messy
19:55
situation right now for that
19:55
landscape.
19:58  Alban
I so I actually went and
19:58
I went was doing much of
20:00
research across social media,
20:00
you are not doing a ton you're
20:04
most active on Instagram. But
20:04
since like last few months, you
20:08
haven't been posting almost at
20:08
all. Is that intentional that
20:11
you're just like, this social
20:11
stuff doesn't get a good ROI in
20:15
my life for for my podcast or
20:15
any of my stuff. So you just
20:18
taking a step back?
20:19  Unknown
Yeah, I find social
20:19
media to largely be a waste of
20:22
time. I like social media for
20:22
the one way communication, I
20:28
guess it's two way communication
20:28
that I get with show fans. But
20:31
I'm not trying to be an
20:31
influencer, because I know a lot
20:34
of broke ass influencers, you
20:34
know, and I know a lot of them
20:38
that are making good money. But
20:38
every day, every moment of their
20:41
life is trying to figure out how
20:41
to monetize them going to the
20:43
freaking dentist, you know, and
20:43
it's a game that you lose as you
20:47
get older, or you can't scale or
20:47
the algorithm Gods go, they look
20:51
left instead of right. And now
20:51
suddenly, you're de prioritized.
20:54
Or you're demonetised, because
20:54
you said one thing that a bunch
20:58
of people didn't like about
20:58
something, and it doesn't have
21:01
to be anything serious. or
21:01
Google just says, you know, we
21:04
don't really like people that do
21:04
selfie videos too much. Let's
21:07
try people who are driving this
21:07
week. And then suddenly, you're
21:11
like, why is my youtube channel
21:11
basically dead? I don't get it.
21:14
So with podcasting, since it's
21:14
an open ecosystem, and there is
21:16
no algorithm, yes, there's
21:16
nothing that goes viral. But
21:20
there's also no, there's no
21:20
like, hey, the wind changed. And
21:23
now your entire business is
21:23
completely broken, useless. And
21:26
there's nothing you can do about
21:26
it, which is what I see with
21:29
people on YouTube, or tik tok.
21:29
The algorithm changes or their
21:33
audience just migrates to the
21:33
next, like, funny guy who jumps
21:37
on tables full of food as a
21:37
hilarious prank. And now you're
21:40
just a nobody again, and
21:40
nobody's sponsoring your stuff.
21:43
And look, if social media ads
21:43
were really that valuable, the
21:48
cpms wouldn't be like three or
21:48
four bucks, right? podcast. cpms
21:52
are like 30 bucks. I'm getting
21:52
$30 2530 bucks CPM, you know,
21:57
then you get to give a cut to
21:57
the salespeople. Like I
21:59
mentioned before, if you got
21:59
Google ads running and stuff
22:02
like that you're getting You're
22:02
lucky if you get three or four
22:05
bucks, you need to have a
22:05
YouTube channel, or sorry, not
22:09
even a channel because
22:09
subscribers don't matter. Right
22:11
with with YouTube, right? with
22:11
YouTube, you have to have
22:13
millions of people watch every
22:13
single one of your videos to get
22:18
even remotely within the realm
22:18
of the amount of profit that a
22:22
decent sized podcast makes with
22:22
like three people working on it.
22:26  Alban
Yeah, I like to, I really
22:26
push this point all the time,
22:30
because we do YouTube, we do
22:30
podcasts, we do blog, we do a
22:33
course everything on the same
22:33
stuff. But I go to podcast
22:37
movement. And the only people
22:37
who come up and say, I'm so
22:40
excited to meet you. You taught
22:40
me how to podcast. They all
22:44
listen to our podcast episodes.
22:44
Almost none of the people who've
22:48
ever watched our YouTube videos,
22:48
come up and talk to me even
22:50
though those have 10 times the
22:50
place that the podcast has the
22:54
level of engagement there is a
22:54
total nother level. I mean, it
22:58
is something totally different
22:58
when someone listens to you for
23:01
1020 episodes, that versus they
23:01
were drunk on a Saturday and so
23:06
they just decided to scroll
23:06
through YouTube for an hour.
23:10
Exactly like like Tick Tock and
23:10
these I know these people go
23:13
dude, you got to get on Tick
23:13
tock, you
23:14  Unknown
got to get on Tick
23:14
tock, I have 300,000 plays on my
23:17
last few videos, and I go great.
23:17
How do you reach those people?
23:20
Oh, I just make another video.
23:20
And they'll make a course or
23:23
something. And they'll put it
23:23
out in the video. And they're
23:25
like, Dude, it's just like, no
23:25
one cares. And of course, they
23:27
don't care. They're they're on
23:27
the toilet scrolling. They're
23:30
not fans of yours. They're
23:30
literally the algorithm put your
23:33
crap in front of them because
23:33
you said something funny in a
23:35
video once or because like you
23:35
had your cute puppy in the
23:39
video. No one cares about you on
23:39
here. But then you go to the
23:44
podcast and you put up your
23:44
first 10 episodes. And you find
23:47
people that have listened to you
23:47
for 10 hours. And they feel like
23:50
they've known you for that long
23:50
and they've got this parasocial
23:53
relationship with you. That's
23:53
sort of like a one way
23:56
friendship and they're really
23:56
excited to meet you to be to do
24:00
that on YouTube. Not only do you
24:00
have millions of people
24:02
literally competing with you for
24:02
that, but you've also got a much
24:06
shorter attention span you've
24:06
got a younger and less
24:08
sophisticated audience with
24:08
social media and YouTube and for
24:11
a show like the Jordan Harbinger
24:11
show that Yeah, broke broker
24:15
audience for show like the
24:15
Jordan Harbinger show I've got
24:18
educated affluent professionals,
24:18
you know, talk about global
24:20
affairs, world events. I've got
24:20
great stories on there. I've got
24:22
neuro scientists and
24:22
psychologists, those are usually
24:26
like educated, affluent
24:26
professionals, generally, you
24:29
know, not everyone but
24:29
generally, and those that's a
24:32
much more desirable audience,
24:32
then casting is widen it as
24:36
possible. Also, there's
24:36
something called that I've
24:38
called the Jerry Springer
24:38
effect, where, when you're on
24:42
YouTube, and you're really sub,
24:42
you're sort of subject to the
24:45
algorithm and not YouTube but
24:45
social media in general. I
24:47
always use YouTube as the
24:47
example social media in general.
24:51
You have the the Jerry Springer
24:51
effect, which is back in the
24:54
90s. I don't expect you to
24:54
remember this. Jerry Springer
24:56
was actually like a really
24:56
serious talk show host. He was
24:58
really, really smart. He is
24:58
like, well spoken, he still is
25:02
well spoken when he wants to be.
25:02
And he had intelligent
25:05
discussions on a show. And his
25:05
daytime talk competitor was this
25:09
guy, Geraldo Rivera, who's just
25:09
a Yahoo, who is on fox news all
25:13
the time making up, you know,
25:13
baloney, generally all the time.
25:17
And he's just kind of like a
25:17
professional wrestler of
25:19
journalism. He's not like a good
25:19
journalist, in my opinion. And
25:24
so what Geraldo did was, he had
25:24
white supremacists on and Black
25:27
Panthers at the same time, and
25:27
he got hit in the face with a
25:30
chair, and his ratings went
25:30
through the roof. And it was
25:34
totally unplanned, supposedly.
25:34
And then everyone watched
25:37
Geraldo Rivera, and then he was
25:37
like, Oh, I'm only going to have
25:40
a circus on my show, because
25:40
that's how you get ratings. And
25:43
then Jenny Jones and Jerry
25:43
Springer and Ricki Lake, they
25:46
went from like serious like,
25:46
Good talk shows to crap guess I
25:52
got to act like an idiot and
25:52
have dumb people on here who
25:55
throw chairs and like, say
25:55
you're not the father, or you
25:58
are the father and do paternity
25:58
test live. Maury Povich, like,
26:02
all those people used to be
26:02
serious. That's because they
26:04
have to follow the algorithm,
26:04
which were the Nielsen ratings
26:07
on TV. So they all ruined their
26:07
brand. And now I think like
26:10
Jerry Springer was like, I'm
26:10
gonna run for governor and
26:12
everyone's like, bro, sit down.
26:12
No way. Sit down. Yeah, sit down
26:16
there, buddy. Not gonna happen.
26:16
So that's a huge problem for
26:21
your brand. And unless you are
26:21
willing to do the professional
26:25
wrestler thing and be be subject
26:25
to the Jerry Springer effect,
26:29
then you should not be trying to
26:29
compete on a lot of these social
26:32
media platforms. That's why you
26:32
see people who have really good
26:36
start off really good on social
26:36
media. Suddenly, you're like,
26:39
why are you just filming Funny,
26:39
funny and air quotes things now?
26:44
or Why are you trying to do
26:44
shows, used to do shows with
26:46
scientists and great thinkers.
26:46
And now it's like, out of work
26:50
actor that's still good looking
26:50
next week on whatever talk show
26:54
that I have on YouTube, or like
26:54
next week, another influencer,
26:58
who has a lot of followers who
26:58
they will send to my channel,
27:01
cool. No one cares. Like people
27:01
care for a second. But you have
27:05
to constantly be adding fuel and
27:05
throwing gasoline on that fire.
27:08
Otherwise, you crash. Or as a
27:08
podcast, you can say, this is
27:12
what I talked about. It's smart
27:12
stuff, share it with people who
27:14
like smart stuff. If you don't
27:14
like smart stuff, you're going
27:17
to be bored leave. And over time
27:17
you build very slowly, a really
27:21
good audience. And then when
27:21
you're like, hey, if you want me
27:24
to keep doing this, you got to
27:24
buy a freakin mattress, or I'm
27:26
gonna go broke, people are like,
27:26
give me a mattress. Right? So
27:30
they want that stuff because
27:30
they want to support you. But if
27:32
I see an ad on YouTube, I'm
27:32
usually like a. And it's not
27:36
that they don't work. It's just
27:36
that you need a hell of a lot
27:39
more volume. And look
27:42  Alban
all the way. Volume is to
27:42
be crazy. It is to be crazy, to
27:46
put up the next politics thing
27:46
or go and be as edgy as
27:51
possible. And I mean, you hit on
27:51
this earlier, if there is an
27:55
algorithm between you and your
27:55
audience, that is not your
27:59
audience. That is YouTube's
27:59
audience that is Twitter's
28:01
audience, that's Facebook's
28:01
audience that's snapchats
28:04
audience or that, actually the
28:04
Chinese government's audience,
28:07
but all of those are not yours,
28:07
the minute that it's not good
28:11
for them to have you be the
28:11
person in front of this
28:14
audience, they will just switch
28:14
it and they will de monetize you
28:17
or they will move on. And it
28:17
doesn't mean you did something
28:19
terrible. It could just be your
28:19
interests are no longer aligned.
28:24
And I think that's like one of
28:24
the incredible things you're
28:26
kind of talking about for
28:26
podcasting.
28:29  Unknown
Yeah, that's a really
28:29
good point that if there's an
28:31
algorithm between you and your
28:31
audience, it's not your
28:33
audience. And people go, Oh, no,
28:33
well, they can subscribe to my
28:35
YouTube channel. Man. I know a
28:35
lot of people that have 4
28:38
million YouTube subscribers, and
28:38
they get like 6500 views per
28:42
video, because now they're just
28:42
filming themselves breakdancing
28:45
or something because they're
28:45
just out of ideas. Or they get
28:48
6500 views per video because
28:48
their audience subscribed once
28:52
when they had a go, let's go
28:52
back to Dwight. They had Dwayne
28:56
Wade on once, three years ago,
28:56
they got a bunch of subscribers,
28:59
then people went, yeah, I don't
28:59
care about this guy's content at
29:01
all. You don't really have that
29:01
with podcasting, because nothing
29:05
goes viral in the first place.
29:05
People have to share via word of
29:08
mouth or via social media and
29:08
they go Look, listen to the
29:11
Jordan Harbinger show really
29:11
good stuff. Here's a really good
29:13
guest start with that. And then
29:13
people go, Oh, that's cool. And
29:16
then it comes in their feed
29:16
later, oh, this person looks
29:18
cool. This person looks cool.
29:18
with YouTube. It just doesn't
29:21
really work like that. Right? It
29:21
doesn't really work like that.
29:24
People subscribe to 500
29:24
different channels, they go to
29:28
their homepage and they pick the
29:28
thing on the top row. And that's
29:31
it. That's they just eat their
29:31
cereal. And then they close it
29:34
and go on with their day, if not
29:34
a whole lot following.
29:37  Alban
Yeah, much more opting in
29:37
for podcasting to I'm going,
29:41
Hey, I'm going to go for a run.
29:41
I mean, I did this today. I'm
29:44
going to go for a run. So I'm
29:44
going to listen to the Jordan
29:45
Harbinger show and I download a
29:45
specific episode. I'm excited
29:48
about it and I go for the run. I
29:48
listen to the whole thing,
29:51
versus the alternative which is
29:51
like I'm just sitting around and
29:55
I have nothing to do I guess
29:55
whatever YouTube sticks in front
29:58
of my face is what I will get
29:58
into
30:00  Unknown
Mm hmm. Exactly,
30:00
exactly. And it's the same thing
30:04
with tik tok is the same thing
30:04
with Instagram. That's why I
30:06
don't really mess with it. Like,
30:06
I don't read my Twitter feed. I
30:09
read my DMS. I don't look at my
30:09
Instagram feed. I read my DMS, I
30:15
don't look at my LinkedIn feed.
30:15
I read my DMS, there are places
30:18
where fans can reach me. And
30:18
people go, Oh, you're missing
30:21
out and I go, look, man, show me
30:21
the top of your funnel. Okay,
30:24
you have 10 million followers on
30:24
all these platforms. Great. Why
30:27
is your show smaller than mine?
30:27
Oh, because they don't want to
30:30
go and listen to your podcast.
30:30
Why? Because they don't really
30:34
care enough to consume it.
30:34
Right? They don't. You have like
30:37
a very shallow audience, that
30:37
what these people won't go and
30:41
buy your book when you release
30:41
it. They're not going to buy
30:43
your course in high numbers
30:43
Anyway, when you release it
30:45
because they're casual
30:45
followers.
30:48  Alban
Mm hmm. Yeah, there's
30:48
that great. Kevin Kelly, Article
30:52
1000, true fans, right? All
30:52
about all you need online is
30:56
truly 1000 people who truly care
30:56
about you. And just take those
31:00
people and if you can monetize
31:00
them well, and they actually
31:02
care a lot. You actually have a
31:02
career. And it's just a totally
31:07
different world. When you go
31:07
Hey, let's go on social media.
31:09
I'll get millions on monetize
31:09
people to the tune of point oh,
31:13
one cent? And then maybe I'll
31:13
have a career. And it really the
31:16
math doesn't work out as well.
31:19  Unknown
No, it doesn't. And
31:19
additionally, event look at look
31:22
at how many times social media
31:22
platforms have changed. Since
31:25
podcasting started which podcast
31:25
builds brick by brick, year by
31:28
year. Okay, Instagram took over
31:28
from what I don't even know
31:33
Facebook, which took over from
31:33
Friendster, which took over from
31:38
I was on my MySpace or MySpace,
31:38
not not Friendster. Friendster
31:41
came before MySpace, right? So
31:41
people migrate. And then those
31:44
things die. And now you've got
31:44
all these other now you've got
31:48
Tick Tock. And so they're trying
31:48
to compete with them. But like
31:51
these things sort of come and go
31:51
podcasting doesn't do that. And
31:54
people might be going, Oh, it's
31:54
only a matter of time. No, not
31:57
really. It's an open ecosystem.
31:57
It's not an app. So people can't
32:01
some rich billionaire can't make
32:01
one decision that screws the
32:04
whole thing up or change the UI
32:04
for everyone. And people go and
32:07
really like this. And like,
32:07
remember, when everyone's like,
32:10
you better be on Snapchat, there
32:10
were Snapchat influencers,
32:13
literally, no one talks about it
32:13
anymore. If it even exists,
32:18
still, no one talks about it. So
32:18
if you spent three years
32:21
building your snapchat
32:21
following, you're totally
32:24
screwed right now. If you'd
32:24
spent that time building your
32:26
podcast, and that's why only
32:26
focus on the podcast. I just
32:30
focus on there. Yes, if I hired
32:30
20 people, I could hit every
32:33
channel. Cool, then my run rates
32:33
to $200,000 a month because I've
32:37
got to buy ads and have managers
32:37
on each channel. Cool to then do
32:41
what monetize it 1% of the
32:41
amount that podcasting can be
32:45
monetized no focus on
32:45
podcasting. When you're digging
32:48
for gold in the mountainside,
32:48
and you find a bunch of like,
32:53
other rocks, you don't go Hey,
32:53
dude, I found a whole lot of
32:55
quartz down here. We should grab
32:55
it. No, you just get the freakin
32:58
gold and the other stuff. You
32:58
throw it down the side of the
33:01
mountain. Right? Like you don't
33:01
grab that other stuff. So I'm
33:05
only going for the gold.
33:05
podcasting is where the money
33:07
is. I'm not trying to get more
33:07
tik tok followers. It's a vanity
33:10
metric. And I don't care.
33:12  Alban
One of the other things
33:12
that you have done, and I wonder
33:14
if this is like an intentional
33:14
growth strategy, or if you even
33:18
think this works. A lot of times
33:18
people say the way to grow is by
33:22
getting big guests on your
33:22
podcast. And so they kind of
33:25
just shoot their shot and they
33:25
send out emails because they
33:28
know that like Seth Godin reads
33:28
all his email, so they're like
33:30
send it like spam everybody.
33:30
Have you seen like you've landed
33:35
guests like Kobe Bryant? Malcolm
33:35
Gladwell, Chelsea Handler near
33:38
the grass. Tyson, you just had
33:38
general HR McMaster on the show.
33:43
All of them like do you? Do you
33:43
see them bringing in a new
33:45
audience? And then if they do to
33:45
the audience day?
33:50  Unknown
No, they don't bring in
33:50
a new audience and with certain
33:52
types of people, they might
33:52
bring in somebody else. But no,
33:56
they generally don't stay like
33:56
when I had Kobe Bryant on I got
33:58
a whole spike. But it's only
33:58
like a 10 or 15% spike. But a
34:02
lot of those people that's the
34:02
only thing they ever listened to
34:05
and they did it because they
34:05
love Kobe and somebody's like
34:07
Dude, really good Kobe interview
34:07
on the Jordan Harbinger show you
34:09
got to check it out. Right? Or
34:09
it comes up in some search for
34:12
something else because they're
34:12
like, Oh my God, this guy
34:14
interviewed Kobe. I was just
34:14
doing a report on him or
34:16
whatever, that audience, very
34:16
few stick around. So whenever I
34:20
see people go like, oh, stand on
34:20
the shoulders of giants. Bring
34:23
in all these great people and
34:23
then people will see you and
34:25
then you'll have credibility,
34:25
and then they'll stick with your
34:28
show. It's just not really
34:28
realistic. You can do that on
34:32
other forms of social media.
34:32
Like if you're a YouTuber, and
34:34
you do a collab, you show up in
34:34
search results and things like
34:38
that. And you've got all these
34:38
other people that like they
34:40
promote you. Kobe Bryant's not
34:40
going to share your crap general
34:45
McMaster is not going to share
34:45
your crap. Howie Mendell is not
34:47
going to share your crap. It's
34:47
not it's pointless. Plus, you
34:51
can so tell when podcasters are
34:51
doing something where they're
34:54
like, okay, just got to kind of
34:54
like crap out this interview
34:58
with I don't even know if
34:58
Chelsea Handler, right, because
35:03
then I'll get all these
35:03
followers. They're not
35:05
interested, they don't know much
35:05
about her, they just googled
35:08
some stuff they're mailing it
35:08
in, you have to go with what
35:11
you're interested in and what
35:11
your audience is interested in.
35:13
The idea that you're going to
35:13
have all these high end people
35:15
on and they're gonna grow your
35:15
show is delusional. It really
35:18
is. The only time that would
35:18
work is if you are exceptionally
35:21
well connected, like Dax Shepard
35:21
is a good talk show host, he
35:25
runs a good show, but also all
35:25
his friends on his show are like
35:28
these a list. Amazing folks. So
35:28
he's got millions of people or
35:32
whatever it is listening to his
35:32
podcast. But that's because he
35:35
can call Elon degenerates. He
35:35
can call Michelle Obama, he can
35:39
call all these super famous
35:39
people to be on his show. Okay,
35:42
fine. They're probably getting a
35:42
bunch of search traffic, they're
35:46
probably maybe even sharing it.
35:46
That's great. I'm sure he's
35:48
building his audience that way.
35:48
That's not going to happen for
35:51
you Don't count on that. You're
35:51
not even going to have you could
35:54
interview a dentist in your
35:54
area. And they'd be like, I
35:56
guess I'll tweet it. But it's
35:56
annoying, right? Yeah, it's not
35:59
really going to grow your show.
35:59
And even when it does, the vast
36:02
majority of those people who
36:02
listen for one particular guest,
36:05
they don't care about you,
36:05
they're going to bounce.
36:06  Alban
So I feel like I know the
36:06
answer. But for you going ahead
36:10
and putting together like a
36:10
headliner, or a wave or a
36:13
Buzzsprout visual soundbite
36:13
that's not even worth that you
36:16
wouldn't put that together and
36:16
send it to them, you just say
36:19
they're probably not going to
36:19
share it and just move on.
36:22  Unknown
I if I posted on like
36:22
LinkedIn, which is the only
36:24
platform that we've just started
36:24
testing recently, just posting
36:28
stuff on there, because it does
36:28
get decent engagement, because
36:30
people are willing to sit down
36:30
and listen to something because
36:32
it's LinkedIn, it's more
36:32
professional than just Doom
36:35
scrolling. That's doing okay.
36:35
But I tagged them in that, and
36:41
then people will comment, or
36:41
they'll try and reshare it on
36:43
LinkedIn or something like that.
36:43
But at the end of the day, even
36:47
if something gets an amazing
36:47
amount of play, like I posted a
36:51
clip from my Coby interview, and
36:51
it got like 130,000 plays, very
36:56
few of them went, Oh, my gosh, I
36:56
have to open up my podcast app,
37:00
and subscribe to this. They
37:00
listened to that clip, or they
37:04
may be listened to that whole
37:04
episode, very few of them went
37:08
and subscribed to the actual
37:08
show. On the other hand, when I
37:11
go on another podcast, people go
37:11
and find the show, they download
37:14
five episodes that they're into,
37:14
and then they listen, and they
37:17
go, Oh, god, I'm so glad I found
37:17
this. This is really great.
37:19
You've got to find people who
37:19
are already in the habit of
37:21
listening to podcasts, there are
37:21
millions of people listening to
37:24
podcasts, why am I gonna go out
37:24
and try and educate these
37:27
randos? on the internet? Who
37:27
don't already have the habit?
37:31
Why am I trying to educate the
37:31
market, it's completely
37:33
pointless. So
37:34  Alban
you're gonna let
37:34
everybody else get their friends
37:37
say, hey, the purple app, you've
37:37
not been paying attention to it.
37:39
That's actually podcasts, you
37:39
can download these shows. Once
37:42
that happens, then you're happy
37:42
to go, Hey, I'll pay you for a
37:46
little time on the show. And now
37:46
you might come over and you're
37:49
now subscribed to to shows.
37:51  Unknown
Exactly, that's why
37:51
that's why I'm appearing on
37:54
other shows. And people go, will
37:54
you be on my YouTube channel or
37:57
whatever? And it's like, I don't
37:57
really need to do that for the
37:59
business. Right? Because if a
37:59
bunch of people go and subscribe
38:03
to the Jordan Harbinger YouTube,
38:03
I'll save you the Google, it's
38:05
pretty small, because people go,
38:05
why doesn't this have more
38:08
views? And I go, because I don't
38:08
care. Yeah, you know, like, I
38:11
want you to find the content.
38:11
I'm glad that people are
38:13
watching. But at the end of the
38:13
day, for me to produce video is
38:16
10 times harder and more costly
38:16
than producing audio, first of
38:19
all. Second of all, if you put
38:19
one ad in a YouTube video,
38:23
people are like, I so annoying.
38:23
This ad is a bunch of a holes,
38:29
you put four ads and an hour
38:29
long podcast, and people are
38:31
like, great, whatever. This is
38:31
the this is the price I pay for
38:34
great content. You know, it's a
38:34
completely different mindset
38:37
when it comes to the content.
38:37
And you look at watch time
38:40
versus listen time, like you
38:40
see, listen times, like 86% of
38:43
your podcasts are finished
38:43
completely by something like 86%
38:47
of people listen to the whole
38:47
podcast, you look at YouTube. I
38:50
mean, good watch time is like
38:50
two and a half minutes or
38:53
something like that, I think.
38:53
And I remember seeing my stats
38:57
from my channel manager. He
38:57
goes, you're listening time or
39:00
your watch time is 18 minutes.
39:00
And I was like, Oh, that's
39:02
awful. My videos are like 40
39:02
minutes long. And he goes, are
39:05
you kidding? That's like, nine
39:05
times the average watch time of
39:10
a YouTube video. And I went Oh,
39:10
so this is good. And he's like,
39:13
yeah, it's really good. It means
39:13
a lot of people are watching the
39:16
whole thing. Some people only
39:16
watch a few seconds and skip and
39:19
I go well, that's normal. Right?
39:19
But most YouTube YouTubers, like
39:23
even friends of mine that make
39:23
their whole living on YouTube.
39:25
They see my watch time and
39:25
they're like, holy crap, how is
39:28
that even possible? Their
39:28
average watch time, which is
39:31
really good is like two minutes
39:31
and 50 seconds.
39:34  Alban
Yeah, I think that's such
39:34
a good metric. Because like
39:37
we're we really need to be
39:37
optimizing for attention and
39:40
engagement. And I mean, true
39:40
engagement. like somebody's
39:43
actually paying attention to
39:43
you. They would actually
39:45
remember listening to your show,
39:45
versus on a lot of channels and
39:50
people are probably watching
39:50
this on YouTube right now. So
39:52
you're kind of looking at us the
39:52
last scan, but that like on
39:56
YouTube early. It is you get on
39:56
you bounce. There's 12 things in
40:00
the sidebar always asking for
40:00
your attention. And it's very
40:03
hard to keep someone for a long
40:03
time. If I can't, can I shift
40:07
gears for a second and just kind
40:07
of pick your brain about
40:10
interview skills? You've done
40:10
something like 1000 interviews
40:15
between your old show and the
40:15
Jordan Harbinger show, and
40:19
you've done a ton of incredible
40:19
interviews. I mean, first off,
40:23
who is the your most favorite
40:23
interview? Who are you most like
40:26
nervous to interview?
40:28  Unknown
It's always really
40:28
tough. I mean, I'm, I've never
40:30
really nervous like beforehand.
40:30
I shouldn't say never. Rarely am
40:35
I nervous about the person. I'm
40:35
always nervous about the tech.
40:38
Right? It's always like, Oh, is
40:38
this gonna crash? Is this gonna
40:40
be unstable? Did they remember
40:40
to bring their microphone? Why
40:42
aren't their headphones working?
40:42
That's the stuff that makes me
40:45
nervous. But you know, if I got
40:45
Malcolm Gladwell on there, I'm
40:48
not nervous during really, I
40:48
mean, I'm ready. So it's hard to
40:53
say. I've had Mark Cuban Kevin
40:53
systrom, founder of Instagram,
40:57
Coby Ray Dalio. I just
40:57
interviewed Stephen Schwarzman,
41:00
from Blackstone, I've got a lot
41:00
of really amazing folks coming
41:03
up. I've had a lot of really
41:03
amazing folks in the past. I
41:05
think one of the things that
41:05
that maybe makes me okay at
41:08
interviews is that I don't
41:08
really get nervous because I
41:11
don't care about celebrities at
41:11
all. They're interesting people,
41:15
but I'm not under the delusion
41:15
that I'm going to be homeboys
41:18
with Dwayne Wade, or Dennis
41:18
Rodman after the show. So if I
41:23
say and do all the right things,
41:23
he's going to be like, bro, we
41:25
need to hang out more. That's
41:25
not really in my list of things
41:29
that I care about. I want my
41:29
audience to have a good
41:31
listening experience. So that's
41:31
why I'm never really that
41:35
worried about the guest liking
41:35
me at the end. It's just like
41:38
journalism, they're not going to
41:38
call me and invite me to a
41:40
party. It does happen. But it's
41:40
pretty rare. So I don't focus.
41:44
They're optimized for that. And
41:44
I think influencers who try to
41:47
do podcasts, they optimized for
41:47
that, because they want those
41:50
validation. Once we part ways in
41:50
the podcast, yeah, I want to be
41:54
able to call you next year when
41:54
your new book comes out. But
41:56
that's pretty much it.
41:58  Alban
Right now. That's
41:58  Unknown
pretty much the only
41:58
thing. So it's better to
42:02
optimize for the listening
42:02
experience of your listener than
42:06
to optimize for whether or not
42:06
the guest really enjoys being
42:09
with you in that particular
42:09
moment. Yeah, you want them to
42:11
be comfortable. You want them to
42:11
think you're professional. But
42:13
beyond that, that's it. You just
42:13
want them to go away, gone. That
42:16
was pretty good. You don't want
42:16
them to you're not trying to
42:19
impress them. You're trying to
42:19
get them to like you. You know,
42:22
you're there every week. your
42:22
listeners are there every week.
42:25
This guest is there once who's
42:25
more important, right?
42:28  Alban
Yeah, I think Kara
42:28
Swisher puts a really well, she
42:30
says, You should be mean to your
42:30
guests a little bit. She's like,
42:33
ask them the toughest questions.
42:33
And you know what, they're
42:36
probably gonna if they want to
42:36
sell their next book, they'll
42:39
probably come back and talk to
42:39
me because I'm Kara Swisher. And
42:42
she's always optimizing for her
42:42
own shows, which I think is
42:45
really good. One of the reason
42:45
things I heard you talk about on
42:48
another podcast was not feeling
42:48
nervous because of the prep you
42:53
do for all of your interviews.
42:53
So can you kind of dive into
42:56
what it looks like for you to
42:56
prep for an interview?
43:00  Unknown
Yeah, so I will, of
43:00
course, read the Wikipedia, I
43:04
read the entire book that the
43:04
person has read that alone, put
43:07
that already puts you in the
43:07
95th 96 whatever percentile of
43:11
all journalists or interviewers,
43:11
nobody reads the book, even even
43:15
the journalists, you think sound
43:15
awesome. They're reading a
43:18
synopsis of the book, they're
43:18
reading highlights that they got
43:21
sent by a publicist, rarely do
43:21
they actually read the book. If
43:24
you read the book, and you study
43:24
up on the person, you are
43:27
already going to jump nine out
43:27
of 10 interviewers,
43:30
additionally, you know, I look
43:30
at the Wikipedia page. I look at
43:34
their Amazon reviews, the
43:34
negative ones, especially, I
43:38
look at controversy that they've
43:38
had in their life, you know,
43:41
news results, especially old
43:41
news results, not just the
43:44
latest craze, whatever. That's
43:44
the kind of thing that really
43:48
gets down to brass tacks, if you
43:48
can find their friends. That's
43:51
really great. You know, I did a
43:51
whole course on this actually.
43:54
It's relatively affordable. It's
43:54
on. It's on Himalaya, I can bump
43:59
it up unless you don't want me
43:59
to. It's a if you go to Jordan
44:02
Harbinger slash Jordan Harbinger
44:02
comm slash how to interview
44:06
it'll forward you to whatever
44:06
page it's on, because it's got
44:08
one of those complicated URLs.
44:08
But it's really affordable. And
44:11
it goes through all my prep
44:11
process, how to do it, how to
44:13
conduct the interview, I did a
44:13
bunch of stuff on there several
44:15
hours on this, but I look up as
44:15
many info sources as I can I
44:20
spend 10 to 20 hours prepping
44:20
for each guest. That's what
44:24
keeps me up there. It's not
44:24
like, Oh, this guy's so
44:26
talented, I would say very
44:26
little of what I'm doing his
44:29
talent. Most of what I'm doing
44:29
is out working everyone else
44:32
because everyone else is
44:32
thinking they're so talented, or
44:35
they're going I don't have time
44:35
to read the whole book. I'm
44:37
gonna read one of the chapters
44:37
or two of the chapters, the
44:39
intro and the clothes, and I'll
44:39
be able to fake it. Well, maybe
44:43
you can fake it for some of your
44:43
audience but you definitely
44:45
aren't going to be as well
44:45
prepared as me and it's really
44:47
going to show it won't show if
44:47
they don't listen to an
44:49
interview that I do with the
44:49
same person. But it will show
44:53
you will show your as if you do
44:53
listen to an interview with that
44:56
I do with somebody and then an
44:56
interview that somebody else
44:58
does with that person. You will
44:58
be Be able to tell. And I'm not
45:02
saying that that's better or
45:02
worse, you got your own
45:04
audience, maybe you're funnier
45:04
than me whatever it is. But I'm
45:07
not naturally funny. I'm not
45:07
naturally talented. All I can do
45:11
is at work, everyone. But
45:11
honestly, what is the audience
45:13
want, maybe they want to laugh,
45:13
maybe they want to chuckle, but
45:16
they kind of want to get out of
45:16
reading the whole book, or they
45:18
want to get such a good taste of
45:18
the book, that they want to know
45:21
that it's definitely worth their
45:21
time to go and buy it and then
45:25
read it and spend 10 hours
45:25
reading it themselves. So if
45:28
they listen to me for an hour,
45:28
they know I've read it. And if
45:31
that content is interesting,
45:31
there's more to be had in the
45:34
book. And if it's like, that was
45:34
okay, then you've had your fill.
45:38
But we can always sort of tell
45:38
when somebody is faking their
45:40
way through it. If you don't
45:40
really know what it looks like
45:43
when somebody fakes their way
45:43
through an interview, watch a
45:46
journalist on TV who has like 10
45:46
minutes, interview somebody,
45:50
they have no clue what they're
45:50
talking about. They're super
45:52
general questions. Why now could
45:52
tell him to write your book? Why
45:56
is this book? Why was this the
45:56
book you needed to write? That's
45:59
what they asked, because they
45:59
can ask that of anybody who's
46:01
ever written any book ever. And
46:01
then the person tells two
46:04
stories that they tell on every
46:04
show. And those are the sound
46:07
bites. If you want to get a real
46:07
interview with somebody, you
46:09
have to go beyond the sound
46:09
bites.
46:11  Alban
I love when I hear you
46:11
talk about that. To me, that's
46:15
Depo prep, you're a still an
46:15
attorney, and you're preparing
46:20
for it sounds like you prepare
46:20
for a deposition, you've got one
46:22
chance to get the record
46:22
straight with somebody. And he
46:25
goes 20 hours in learning
46:25
everything. So that I mean, this
46:29
is this thing we always say when
46:29
you're doing cross examination
46:32
on trial, you say don't ask a
46:32
question you don't know the
46:35
answer to exactly does that feel
46:35
like how you're conducting
46:38
interviews?
46:39  Unknown
Definitely. Yeah. I
46:39
rarely ask a question where I
46:42
don't know what they're gonna
46:42
say. And sometimes, you know,
46:46
look, I haven't heard them tell
46:46
the whole story or other times,
46:49
they'll give me a different
46:49
answer. And there are some times
46:53
even in the interview I did
46:53
today with Stephen Schwarzman,
46:55
from Blackstone. I'll ask him
46:55
something and he'll go, Oh,
46:59
well, I don't know anything
46:59
about that. And I'll go Okay.
47:01
Here's a little aside. On page
47:01
something, something in your
47:03
book, you talked about this, and
47:03
this, and he goes, Oh, yeah.
47:05
Okay. Now I know what you mean.
47:05
Yes. Okay. And then I go and
47:08
keep going, you know, in my
47:08
editor will snippet, because I
47:11
had to remind him about
47:11
something that happened in his
47:12
own life. Now, that doesn't mean
47:12
he forgot, it just means that I
47:16
didn't cue him up well enough
47:16
for whatever it was. But
47:19
sometimes I'll there are times
47:19
where I'll ask somebody
47:22
something. And they'll say, oh,
47:22
man, I wrote that book, like two
47:25
years ago. Um, remind me again,
47:25
what that is. And I'll go,
47:28
that's the time you went to the
47:28
bus depot, and you met the guy
47:31
who dressed in the clown suit,
47:31
and then they'll go Right,
47:33
right. And then so we'll have to
47:33
pick it up from there, you have
47:36
to know their content better
47:36
than they do. It doesn't mean
47:39
you have to have a PhD in
47:39
molecular cellular biology like
47:42
they do, it just means you
47:42
should be damn sure that you
47:45
know what's going to come out of
47:45
their mouth. If the stakes
47:47
aren't as high. If they say
47:47
something totally different. And
47:49
it's good, keep it in the show.
47:49
But I know what the audience is
47:53
gonna want. So I'm going to go
47:53
and fish that out, I'm going to
47:56
go and get that out. Again, if
47:56
I'm mining for gold, I'm not
47:59
just digging in the side of a
47:59
mountain going, gee, I hope I
48:01
find something in here. I know
48:01
that there's stuff in there. I'm
48:04
trying to find it. I'm looking
48:04
for a very specific thing that
48:07
is going to make this interview
48:07
worth my audience's time to
48:10
listen to in the first place.
48:10
I'm not just fishing around
48:12
hoping that something happens.
48:12
We know what those podcasts are
48:15
like. They're three hours long.
48:15
There's 18 minutes of content
48:20
interspersed with a bunch of
48:20
tangents and nonchalant banter.
48:23
That is not really a good use of
48:23
your time. Even when
48:27
professional comedians do it in
48:27
the banter is funny. It's like,
48:30
how much of this do I need? You
48:30
know?
48:33  Alban
Yeah, that that's when
48:33
that becomes filler content that
48:36
you're putting on in the
48:36
background while you're doing
48:38
your main, your manual labor job
48:38
and you want something to listen
48:41
to, very accurately content
48:41
you're seeking out, you're
48:44
actually kind of happy. It's
48:44
three hours long, because you're
48:46
like, I'm gonna be here for
48:46
eight. So I might as well listen
48:49
couple episodes of this super
48:49
long podcast. Exactly.
48:53  Unknown
Yeah. And like that has
48:53
its place. But if you think
48:56
you're just going to go ahead
48:56
and do that, great. Now you're
48:59
competing against people. Now
48:59
you're competing against Joe
49:01
Rogan. Okay? When you can do a
49:01
better job than him then you can
49:04
do a three hour long show about
49:04
nothing. You but until then
49:07
you're going to play second
49:07
fiddle. And you're, you're
49:10
always going to you're a
49:10
commodity. How many? How many
49:13
ways are there to fill three
49:13
hours of your day? infinite? How
49:17
many ways are there to learn
49:17
from ti or Mark Cuban or Malcolm
49:22
Gladwell or Ray Dalio in a very
49:22
concentrated format? That's QA,
49:26
not many men, not many. And of
49:26
those, mine will be the best
49:31
prepared and executed.
49:33  Alban
I love it. If you were to
49:33
give anyone like, maybe a final
49:38
interview tip. I mean, you asked
49:38
me these questions. I know you
49:42
don't really care if the guest
49:42
is going to be a little bit
49:45
annoyed. So you asked Dennis
49:45
Rodman like, what's up with all
49:48
the crazy man and actually got
49:48
like a good response out of it?
49:53
Yeah. How do you how do you prep
49:53
those questions? Like Do you
49:55
ever feel nervous that you're
49:55
gonna like annoy a guest enough
49:58
that it's over?
50:00  Unknown
Not really because
50:00
again, I don't care if they like
50:02
me. And also it looks so bad
50:02
when somebody walks out of an
50:05
interview. Also, I do plan those
50:05
questions in so right, yes,
50:10
maybe the first thing I thought
50:10
of when I was going to
50:11
interview, Dennis Rodman was
50:11
what's up with all the crazy
50:14
man. But I probably didn't start
50:14
there. And if it was, even if
50:17
that question was early on in
50:17
the interview, I probably like
50:21
went downstairs had lunch with
50:21
the guy first chatted about
50:24
nothing, chopped it up with his
50:24
team a little bit, got an
50:27
introduction in the first place
50:27
through a buddy, and then sat
50:31
him down, had a diet coke and
50:31
then said, Alright, let's roll
50:35
and then went. Okay, so the
50:35
question that's on everybody's
50:37
mind, what's up with all the
50:37
crazy man and he probably just
50:40
start I don't remember it, but
50:40
he probably just started
50:41
laughing or something like that.
50:41
Exactly. That's because I didn't
50:44
he didn't step off the elevator,
50:44
sit down and go, Okay, are we
50:46
doing this? And then I go, Why
50:46
are you such a weirdo? Right?
50:48
That's not a good way I built
50:48
rapport with him. First. There's
50:51
other things where I'll ask a
50:51
guest. And it might be the first
50:55
question I thought of, but I put
50:55
it towards the end of the show,
50:57
because I go, I need him to sort
50:57
of like trust me, before asking
51:01
him this, or I'm going to get a
51:01
garbage blow off answer, or
51:04
they're just going to go, Oh, is
51:04
it gonna be one of those? You
51:06
don't want that. So it's, it's
51:06
it's all in how you structure
51:08
the interview. But you develop
51:08
rapport with the guests, they
51:11
trust you to do the right thing,
51:11
again, being trusted and liked
51:14
not the same thing. Being
51:14
trusted to do your job, well be
51:17
professional, represent them?
51:17
Well, that's one thing that is
51:22
completely independent of
51:22
whether or not they like you,
51:24
and you shouldn't care if they
51:24
like you, you should care if
51:27
they trust you.
51:28  Alban
Man, I think that's a
51:28
really good example, though from
51:32
your Dennis Rodman interview,
51:32
you started out by asking him,
51:36
Hey, you're a unique person, I
51:36
see a lot of people are trying
51:39
to be more true to themselves.
51:39
You were doing this in the 90s,
51:42
though, and it was not as
51:42
common. And you brought it out
51:45
as a very like you are true to
51:45
yourself. That's a positive. got
51:49
that going? And then ask the
51:49
question everyone wants to ask
51:52
in the way everyone wants to ask
51:52
it. And so with that context, he
51:56
knew you weren't just hating on
51:56
him. You were saying you're
51:59
actually interesting.
52:00  Unknown
Exactly. Yeah. Like you
52:00
have to, there are ways to
52:02
massage questions that are more
52:02
awkward into something that is
52:06
more palatable. You have to be
52:06
careful. Like, you don't want to
52:10
turn it up too much. I heard an
52:10
interview with Matthew
52:13
McConaughey. And this woman was
52:13
like, You're so beautiful. Oh,
52:15
my God. And I just thought
52:15
you're, I turned it off. Because
52:18
I go, you have no idea what
52:18
you're doing. You've alienated
52:21
him. He already feels weird.
52:21
You're making it weird. You're
52:24
just kissing his ass. There's
52:24
never going to be any content in
52:26
here. You're not going to
52:26
challenge him on anything. All
52:28
you know is that he's hot. And
52:28
you can't control yourself. I'm
52:31
out. Click Delete.
52:34  Alban
Oh, man, well, I want to
52:34
be respectful of your time,
52:36
because I know we only had you
52:36
for an hour. Can I ask one final
52:38
question? Um, if somebody was a
52:38
new podcaster, what is the one
52:44
piece of advice you want to give
52:44
them? If they're starting a
52:46
podcast today, they're not
52:46
already famous, they're not
52:49
gonna have access to big guests.
52:49
They don't have a big budget.
52:53
What would you tell them about
52:53
starting a podcast,
52:56  Unknown
just work on your
52:56
skills for the first few years.
52:58
Don't try and look at it as a
52:58
business. Don't try and worry
53:01
about monetizing it. That all
53:01
comes years later, you need a
53:04
huge audience to be able to do
53:04
that treat this as a hobby, the
53:07
best way to ruin a hobby is to
53:07
try and monetize it and turn it
53:10
into a job or a career or a side
53:10
hustle. Just do this, if you
53:14
enjoy doing it, and work on your
53:14
skills for the sake of getting
53:17
better at your craft, then you
53:17
will find yourself in a position
53:21
to monetize it. Everybody who
53:21
tries to monetize early ends up
53:25
figuring out trying to figure
53:25
out hacks, and they end up
53:29
monetizing too early, ruining
53:29
the product, getting sick of not
53:32
making any progress and not
53:32
making any money and they quit.
53:35
A lot of people won't listen to
53:35
this advice, that's fine. Those
53:38
are the people that are going to
53:38
quit. But the people who are
53:40
really going to stick with this,
53:40
that you start off just doing it
53:43
because you like it. And then
53:43
one day somebody says, Hey, you
53:45
know, you could probably get an
53:45
advertiser, and it would pay for
53:47
your hosting bill. And maybe the
53:47
drinks you have every week on
53:50
your show. And you go, Oh,
53:50
that's cool. And then your show
53:53
grows and grows and grows. And
53:53
then you go, Hey, you know,
53:55
like, this kind of pays for my
53:55
vacation money now. And then you
54:00
go, you know, maybe I'll do this
54:00
other and then it grows slowly.
54:04
People who try and do it, turn
54:04
it into a business right away.
54:06
It's pretty much universally a
54:06
disaster.
54:09  Alban
One of the stats I pulled
54:09
for earlier in this interview
54:13
was only 23% of all podcasts
54:13
that are out there, there's 1.5
54:17
million, but only 23% have 10
54:17
episodes, and have released
54:22
something in the last three
54:22
months. So, you know, we think
54:27
of this massive world of
54:27
podcasting was actually a ton
54:29
smaller when you get people who
54:29
are willing to stick with this
54:32
for two and a half months and
54:32
just consistently put out
54:35
episodes. If you do that you're
54:35
in the top quarter of people.
54:39
And if you do that for a few
54:39
years, a lot of great things can
54:41
come your way.
54:43  Unknown
Yeah, think about how
54:43
low that bar is just not
54:46
quitting, you know, 90 days, or
54:46
whatever it is right? When
54:50
you're releasing one a week.
54:50
Just don't quit within the first
54:53
three months of doing something.
54:53
If you tell somebody that's
54:55
advice for any other thing,
54:55
they're like, I want my money
54:58
back How do I get better at
54:58
soccer just don't quit within
55:02
the first three months. Okay,
55:02
dude, I'm out. Give me my money.
55:05
Jordan,
55:05  Alban
thank you so much. I
55:05
really appreciate you being on
55:08
the show. I'm excited to share
55:08
all of these growth tips and all
55:12
of your thoughts on podcasting
55:12
with our audience. Hopefully
55:16
we'll maybe get to catch up with
55:16
you again sometime when this
55:20
COVID thing is over and we're
55:20
back in person.
55:22  Jordan
Looking forward to it.
55:22
Thanks for the opportunity.