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episode 37: The Future of Podcasting with Adam Curry [transcript]


In this episode, Adam Curry joins the crew to talk about the origins of podcasting, what's going on with The Podcast Index, and what the future of podcasting looks like for independent creators.

Listen to Adam on the No Agenda podcast.

Subscribe to the Buzzsprout YouTube channel to watch gear reviews, software tutorials, and podcast strategy videos.

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Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2020-10-23  1h0m
 
 
00:00  Adam
It was 2005 2006 when I
00:00
got a call from Eddie Q, who was
00:06
pretty big man on campus there
00:06
now. Yeah. And he said that you
00:10
want to meet with Steve Jobs
00:10
like, Huh. So I went he was at
00:15
d3, the d3 conference. I went
00:15
had an hour just him and me. It
00:19
was really incredible. He was
00:19
very personable, of course, he
00:21
wanted something from me. He
00:21
wanted me to to bless podcasting
00:25
in iTunes, which he asked me I
00:25
said, Yeah, absolutely. In fact,
00:28
I'll give you the directory that
00:28
we have to get it started. And
00:31
that day, he announced
00:31
podcasting and iTunes.
00:38  Kevin
Welcome back to Buzzcast.
00:38
I'm Kevin today. I've got Tom
00:41
with me. Travis is helping us on
00:41
the producer. And and we've got
00:44
a very special guest today. It
00:44
is Adam curry, the pod father of
00:47
podcasting. Thank you so much
00:47
for joining us, Adam.
00:50  Adam
It's a great pleasure. And
00:50
I was actually very excited. I
00:54
had not seen the podcast you
00:54
guys do? I did see it. Where
00:59
does it show up? It showed up
00:59
somewhere like, okay, they got
01:02
they do a podcast for the
01:02
customers. That's kind of cool.
01:04
So I did see it, but I hadn't I
01:04
hadn't actually checked into it
01:07
yet.
01:07  Kevin
Yeah, we use it for a lot
01:07
of example stuff. So you'll see
01:11
as we're adopting new tags and
01:11
stuff and working with the
01:13
podcast index, kind of the first
01:13
feed that we always hit stuff on
01:16
is this one. Which, you know,
01:16
for better or worse, sometimes
01:20
we mess up our stuff. But
01:22  Adam
I know the ceiling Believe
01:22
me, I know the ceiling. I've met
01:26
plenty of feed. Yeah.
01:28  Kevin
So a lot of people who
01:28
listen to our show, and a lot of
01:31
people who are Buzzsprout
01:31
customers love podcasting, but
01:34
they're relatively new to it. So
01:34
they don't necessarily know the
01:37
whole 25 is it been 25 years or
01:37
20 years history? I don't even
01:41
know what 13 years 15 year
01:41
history of podcasting. And so
01:48
I'm sure you've told the story a
01:48
million times. But would you
01:51
mind telling it again, maybe the
01:51
the high level overview version
01:56
of the history of podcasting,
01:56
how did you get started, how did
01:58
this whole space come to into
01:58
existence?
02:01  Adam
Okay, I was living in
02:01
Amsterdam, I grew up in
02:05
Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and
02:05
then moved to a move back to the
02:09
States, I'm American, moved back
02:09
to the States, and eventually
02:12
wound up doing MTV etc. And then
02:12
I started, one of the first
02:17
internet advertising companies
02:17
called thinking was on ramp. And
02:21
then we took it public, and it
02:21
was thinking new ideas. And
02:24
after a couple year run on that,
02:24
it was time for me to leave, I
02:28
was just sitting around in suits
02:28
all day. And that was fun to
02:31
take a company public, that was
02:31
really a lot of fun. But I was
02:34
kind of like, Okay, I got to
02:34
find something else to do. And
02:38
so, my daughter been born in New
02:38
Jersey, and my wife was my wife
02:41
at the time was from the
02:41
Netherlands. So we decided to
02:45
move back and see what was going
02:45
on. And in the Netherlands, you
02:48
know, they are one of the first
02:48
countries to really have cable
02:52
to every single household for
02:52
cable television. So they were a
02:55
testbed for a lot of media
02:55
experiments. And because they
02:58
had this infrastructure, they
02:58
got cable modems very early on.
03:01
So in 99, everyone kind of had a
03:01
cable modem. And this was a
03:06
revolution because we had always
03:06
on internet, not that it was
03:10
fast. No, no, but you didn't
03:10
have to dial up. So no more. For
03:14
anyone who remembers that. You'd
03:14
have to dial up it was always on
03:17
but it was slow. And there was
03:17
really no the computers were
03:20
kind of ready for a multimedia
03:20
type experience. But the
03:23
bandwidth wasn't there. So we
03:23
had real audio and real video
03:27
and you know, nothing was really
03:27
great. And certainly if you hit
03:29
an mp3 or a quick time, then you
03:29
know, you do click on it, you
03:33
wait 10 minutes, and then you
03:33
you know, make a cup of coffee,
03:37
come back. Okay, it's done play
03:37
it. So I thought why not have
03:41
some kind of system and this
03:41
isn't 2001 it has some kind of
03:45
system that knows what I'm
03:45
looking for when it sees
03:48
something new then downloads it
03:48
but doesn't tell me until it's
03:52
there. So then you just kind of
03:52
removing that, that wait time
03:55
you just shifting it away to
03:55
some other space that you know
03:58
what I don't know, I can't hurt
03:58
me, I guess. And I had this idea
04:01
was walking around with a call
04:01
the last yard I wrote a piece on
04:05
a blog post on it. And at the
04:05
time, Dave Weiner was really
04:10
building out RSS. He had Radio
04:10
userland, which is a kind of a
04:14
cool app that worked as a server
04:14
on your on your lap on your
04:17
local computer. See the
04:17
interface was done completely
04:20
through a web browser, just
04:20
talking to the local server. And
04:25
it was a blogging tool. And one
04:25
of the first I think are the
04:28
earliest blogging tools. And it
04:28
also had an RSS aggregator in
04:31
it. And Funny enough, it was
04:31
called radio user land, which is
04:35
like okay, so I had my I've been
04:35
a radio guy all my life. So I
04:38
kind of had that radio idea. And
04:38
I thought, you know, wouldn't it
04:42
be cool if just like with what
04:42
RSS does where it kept, you
04:45
know, captures kind of the
04:45
stories you go back and read
04:47
them later. If we could put an
04:47
attachment, a file attachment
04:51
that would download and then it
04:51
will be ready for playing. And I
04:54
and I actually went to New York
04:54
and met with Dave and he I think
04:58
he had the first meeting. He was
04:58
like a VGA guy or whatever. But
05:04
I was pretty persistent, came
05:04
back the next day and showed him
05:06
in his software, my idea. And he
05:06
ultimately said, Okay, I'll
05:12
implement this. But under one
05:12
condition, you never ever use my
05:16
software again, because that was
05:16
horrible what you showed me So
05:19
okay, that's fine. That's good.
05:19
And the, the enclosure element
05:24
of RSS was born. And this kind
05:24
of meandered along, we were
05:28
using it between each other
05:28
sending 100 megabyte file, which
05:31
at the time was crazy big. And
05:31
then you know, the next morning,
05:35
I'd wake up because I was still
05:35
you know, to timezone. And oh,
05:38
there's a can play and I played
05:38
the video and it was okay, but
05:41
it didn't really catch any
05:41
traction for
05:44
it. It solved a problem that
05:44
wasn't quite there yet. But I
05:47
didn't know was there until I
05:47
saw my first iPod. And that's
05:50
when I went off radio. Because
05:50
the first iPod was that white
05:54
thing with the dial. It looks so
05:54
much like the Sony transistor
05:58
radio my grandmother gave me
05:58
when I was a kid, which I
06:01
listened to the basketball games
06:01
under my pillow. When I was six
06:04
or seven years old. Yeah, just
06:04
it was it right. Now, it's not a
06:08
jukebox, that's a radio receiver
06:08
and I then I put the two pieces
06:11
together. I said, Well, why
06:11
don't we find an mp3 file that's
06:18
attached to an RSS feed, and
06:18
then take that out, download it,
06:22
and actually built this an apple
06:22
script, which is take someone
06:25
who's really a developer and
06:25
take Apple script, you got like,
06:29
you know, you got like a mess on
06:29
your hands. But I was able to
06:31
make it work. And so it would
06:31
look for one fee, look for a new
06:35
enclosure, download it to the to
06:35
iTunes at the time, because you
06:40
still had to sync your your
06:40
iPod, it would trigger the sync
06:43
and then you pick it up and
06:43
you'd be right there, I would
06:45
say a playlist was created. That
06:45
was the name of the show. And
06:49
then the episode. And podcasting
06:49
was born. And I immediately
06:53
started doing a show called The
06:53
Daily source code, because I
06:56
knew that we needed radios, we
06:56
needed radios on the other side,
07:01
which really, today is become
07:01
the podcast app that you use to
07:06
listen to shows, very analogous
07:06
to what we're doing now. I would
07:09
talk about the developers who
07:09
are working on these pod
07:12
catchers, as we call them. And
07:12
we learned a lot of things. And
07:15
it's just crazy stuff. You know,
07:15
when you have a very minimal
07:19
modem connection, and you
07:19
subscribe to feed and starts to
07:21
download 50 episodes of
07:21
something, this is not a good.
07:25
So these are all things that we
07:25
learned in the very early days.
07:27
And it kind of kind of grew. And
07:27
then there was, yeah, it was
07:30
just like a wave of of stuff
07:30
start to happen, I think was the
07:34
BBC came to interview me. And
07:34
then it was off to the races and
07:38
everyone was calling. I was
07:38
like, Oh, what is going on here?
07:40
And it was 2006 I think
07:40
2005 2006 when I got a call from
07:49
Steve Jobs, and he said, Well,
07:49
actually was Eddie Q. Who was
07:52
pretty big man on campus there
07:52
now. Yeah. And he said that you
07:56
want to meet with Steve Jobs
07:56
like, Huh. So I went he was at
08:04
d3, the d3 conference. I went
08:04
had an hour just him and me. It
08:07
was really incredible. He was
08:07
very personable, of course, he
08:10
wanted something from me, he
08:10
wanted me to to bless podcasting
08:13
in iTunes, which he asked me I
08:13
said, Yeah, absolutely. In fact,
08:16
I'll give you the directory that
08:16
we have to get it started. And
08:20
that day he announced podcasting
08:20
in in iTunes is pretty funny
08:25
video, because, you know, he
08:25
plays a stick piece of my show
08:27
where I'm ragging on my Mac. And
08:27
so he knew exactly what he was
08:30
doing. Total show guy.
08:32  Tom
So you had a directory of
08:32
podcasts before apple?
08:36  Adam
Yeah, it was called iPod
08:36
or.org for a whole bunch of
08:39
reasons. And it was really a it
08:39
was kind of a fun way of doing
08:43
it. It was a distributed
08:43
directory based on opml. So you
08:46
know how you can have feeds in
08:46
an opml file. So we use the
08:50
include tag, so I had like the
08:50
top level, and did it by
08:53
geography. And you clicked on
08:53
Europe, and then it would open
08:56
up and there would be, you know,
08:56
the Netherlands, Belgium,
08:59
Germany, and we had different
08:59
people in each country
09:01
maintaining what podcast they
09:01
were finding what was out there.
09:04
So overnight, I could have my,
09:04
my software, walk this tree and
09:09
say, oh, pop, here's new stuff
09:09
that we found from somewhere all
09:12
over the world. Granted, when
09:12
Apple launched, the directory
09:17
was disappointing because it
09:17
highlighted NPR, PBS net and I
09:22
will say, Tony Khan, W GBH in
09:22
Boston. I mean, he was early
09:27
early on, he was a big believer,
09:27
he dragged NPR into podcasting
09:32
by the scruff of their neck. And
09:32
it was good programming of
09:35
course, but it wasn't quite the,
09:35
the free feel and people
09:39
experimenting that we've seen in
09:39
these podcasts that you know, we
09:43
didn't have any of this
09:43
equipment. We didn't have cool
09:45
things to connect to each other.
09:45
We We barely had Skype, I think
09:50
just yet it was just about has
09:50
Skype, maybe not even
09:54  Tom
Was there any resistance
09:54
from the old media, like radio
09:58
or anybody else did they did
09:58
they? see this as a as a threat?
10:01
Or did they just see it as a
10:01
side project is something
10:04
totally irrelevant to what they
10:04
were doing,
10:06  Adam
you know, very similar to
10:06
when I was at MTV in the 80s.
10:11
And very early 90s, I'd
10:11
registered mtv.com because I
10:16
noticed before the web This was
10:16
I had a gopher server. I mean, I
10:20
was running a gopher server and
10:20
I had adam@mtv.com email
10:23
address. And I was using on the
10:23
air and I went to the to the
10:27
legal department, and I said,
10:27
the van Topher, who now I think,
10:30
is the CEO of the network. And I
10:30
said, Hey, man, I got this
10:35
mtv.com it's just me, I'm just
10:35
using it for me. Is that okay?
10:38
And his answer was, it's fine.
10:38
We've got the AOL keyword, we're
10:43
not.
10:46  Tom
That's very bad. AOL,
10:46
keyword.
10:48  Adam
Yeah. So that was kind of
10:48
the vibe from the radio, guys,
10:51
you know, but also, this was
10:51
around the time blogging was
10:54
starting. So people were, you
10:54
know, Pooh poohing blogging. On
10:57
the one hand, it was great. On
10:57
the other hand, who, why do we
11:00
have to know what you have to
11:00
say about yourself? I mean, of
11:02
course, now, Twitter is Twitter.
11:02
Yeah, is exactly what that has
11:05
become. And so yeah, I started a
11:05
company and started a podcast
11:10
network, which I found is not a
11:10
good idea. You can't really
11:13
monetize the network as a whole
11:13
bunch of reasons for that. But
11:17
what is interesting as a side
11:17
note, because podcasting has
11:21
been around for a long time, but
11:21
it really the resurgence came
11:24
with cereal. And that was, you
11:24
know, came at a great time in
11:28
entertainment history, because
11:28
people had really gotten into
11:32
binge watching, thanks to
11:32
Netflix, etc. And so here was
11:36
something that was episodic. You
11:36
wanted to know what the next
11:39
episode was, but you couldn't
11:39
have it. And that was freaking
11:43
people out, wait a whole week.
11:43
Now, you could come in later and
11:46
catch up, and you can catch up
11:46
to where you know where it was,
11:48
which was also new. But this
11:48
episodic idea that really caught
11:52
storm, but we were doing, we
11:52
were doing all kinds of great
11:56
things with podcasting. intil.
11:56
And I had the pod show in San
12:02
Francisco, we had a competitor
12:02
coming up. And and we had heard
12:06
about this competitor, and they
12:06
had a whole flash interface. And
12:09
it was called Oto. And we were
12:09
just waiting for this thing to
12:12
launch and they never launched
12:12
like, it never happened. It was
12:15
really strange. But they they
12:15
launched something else. It was
12:19
a weird kind of service. And the
12:19
one thing we always struggled
12:22
with, certainly in the beginning
12:22
was explaining, subscribing to a
12:26
podcast that immediately made
12:26
people think it's costing me
12:29
money. It's like a magazine
12:29
subscription. And they had
12:32
something they called follow,
12:32
which I thought was a genius
12:35
idea. You have to know that odio
12:35
had pivoted and became Twitter.
12:40
So they took basically the
12:40
underpinnings of podcasting with
12:44
you know, RSS, and change this
12:44
subscribe to follow. And it just
12:50
took off and it went crazy. And
12:50
then you know, Facebook was
12:52
coming on the scene, then
12:52
YouTube came on the scene. So
12:56
you know, podcasting was a very,
12:56
very slow grower. throughout
13:01
those years when everything was
13:01
basically Oh, my God, look at
13:04
Twitter, look at the Twitter
13:04
fail. Well, was bigger news
13:07
than, than anything in
13:07
podcasting, it was just, you
13:10
know, it was it was a thing. So
13:10
it took quite a backseat for a
13:13
number of years.
13:17  Tom
I think the iPhone had to
13:17
play a big part in it too, when
13:19
the iPhone came out having the
13:19
podcast app, and just people
13:23
having access to that kind of
13:23
bandwidth on their phone to
13:26
listen, so you didn't have to,
13:26
you know, download it on your
13:29
computer and listen on a
13:29
computer, but you're listening
13:31
right there on your phone like
13:31
that. That made a big difference
13:34
in podcasting.
13:35  Adam
Right. And so this is
13:35
where I made a mistake, or where
13:39
I didn't realize my mistake, but
13:39
once you have, because I know we
13:44
didn't have the smartphone, we
13:44
were thinking mp3 players,
13:47
iPods, you know, and that was
13:47
kind of your your radio. But
13:50
with the iPhone, it switched.
13:50
Now the app became the radio.
13:55
And I'd never have I never had
13:55
to worry about radios throughout
13:59
my entire career. I needed a
13:59
transmitter I needed a
14:01
microphone, and I could do my
14:01
thing. radios have always been
14:06
there. You know, you can get
14:06
radios free in the mail. You
14:09
know, weather radio wind it up.
14:09
It's the radios are everywhere.
14:13
And they have no inherent value.
14:13
And no one's really put any, any
14:17
development into radios. You
14:17
know, it's like yeah, we went
14:20
from am to FM. We have digital
14:20
we have, you know, some like in
14:24
in Europe, mainly RDS. So you
14:24
can get some information flowing
14:28
through to your to your
14:28
receiver, no real innovation.
14:31
And when it comes to podcasting,
14:31
it truly is just the app. And
14:38
the app developers, of which
14:38
though many have come and gone
14:42
and some are doing strong and
14:42
most are struggling, have never
14:46
been part of any value flow.
14:46
It's just there's no money
14:49
running from an advertiser or
14:49
listener, anybody through an app
14:53
developer. So the radios are
14:53
drying up and what happens is
14:58
you get some couple of big And
14:58
they say, boom, we're Spotify.
15:03
Here's our radio, and Apple,
15:03
although they have been
15:06
fantastic stewards of podcasting
15:06
and have been very fair and
15:10
allowing complete access to
15:10
their will not complete but
15:14
enough access to their database,
15:14
they became the de facto
15:18
standard on the way in which we
15:18
don't know anything about, we
15:21
don't know how many things get
15:21
rejected. And once it's there,
15:26
love it or hate it. Alex Jones
15:26
has a right to say what he wants
15:28
to say. And if that and I
15:28
understand that might be a
15:31
problem for for Apple and their
15:31
customer base. That's okay. But
15:36
that's when I said, Okay, I'm
15:36
gonna take it back. Now, I want
15:40
to take the directory back, and
15:40
we're gonna put it in an
15:42
independent place. So I really
15:42
had two missions, one is
15:46
realizing that you just can't
15:46
have an entity that has any
15:52
other business line than being
15:52
the index, you can't have any
15:56
other business it has to be
15:56
that's its job. It can't be
15:59
stewarded or shepherded by
15:59
anybody who has anything else.
16:02
Certainly not when it comes to
16:02
advertising, because I'll make
16:05
my speech short. advertising is
16:05
censorship. That's just how it's
16:08
how it works. I've been in
16:08
commercial radio and television
16:11
for a long time. There's stuff
16:11
you can and can't say, when
16:15
there's advertising at play.
16:15
That's just the bottom line. So,
16:20
in order to preserve podcasting,
16:20
as a platform for free speech,
16:24
we needed an independent index.
16:24
And, wow, when it comes to the
16:29
actual act of free speech, it
16:29
doesn't get any better than
16:33
podcasting. That's what we do is
16:33
the true nature of free speech
16:38
distributed globally, that has
16:38
to be protected. And having done
16:42
my own show for coming up on our
16:42
13th anniversary with no agenda,
16:47
we have developed the value for
16:47
value model, which proves that
16:52
if you ask people to support
16:52
something they will, if you make
16:57
it frictionless enough, or if
16:57
you give them a reason to it's
17:00
more reason than anything,
17:00
people will support it. So I had
17:03
no doubt that we could start
17:03
podcasts index.org. With support
17:08
from the community. Thank you
17:08
very much to very generous
17:12
support we've seen from from
17:12
Buzzsprout. And I think that
17:16
we're kind of succeeding in that
17:16
mission. While there's been this
17:20
just as a sidetrack to this
17:20
because of the structure of
17:24
Apple, mainly. There's never
17:24
been a capability for
17:28
innovation. Everybody has ideas,
17:28
everybody knows what they want.
17:32
A lot of them agree. Some things
17:32
overlap. Some things I don't
17:36
think is anything where people
17:36
actually hate an idea so much,
17:39
they wouldn't want to see that
17:39
as an expansion of podcasting.
17:42
But everyone's kind of waiting
17:42
around for the big dog Apple to
17:45
say, Okay, we'll join in, we'll
17:45
do it. And then as we
17:48
progressed, Google came along.
17:48
And then Spotify. And I Heart
17:53
Radio bought bought Stitcher, I
17:53
think or or Gosh, maybe it's
17:57
Sirius XM. And they're all
17:57
building these little silos. So
18:02
where's my core problem is, I
18:02
need to incentivize guys who
18:06
know how to make radios into
18:06
making the next generation of
18:10
radio, what is the next podcast
18:10
experience from a listener or
18:15
viewer standpoint? Can I back
18:15
you up real quick? Yeah.
18:18  Kevin
You mentioned just
18:18
briefly, the the idea that Apple
18:21
who have been great stewards to
18:21
the podcast community, they have
18:26
provided access, and as you
18:26
said, not total access, but
18:29
enough access to their
18:29
directory. Now, you're starting
18:33
the podcast index, can you go
18:33
into a little bit more of the
18:36
why that's important. I feel
18:36
like that is it's critical for
18:41
all of us as podcasters and
18:41
podcast fans to understand the
18:46
amount of power that Apple had
18:46
in being the default directory
18:51
for almost every third party
18:51
podcasting app,
18:54  Adam
right? Sure. As it turns
18:54
out, making a podcast app is
18:58
hard work. It's not just a nice
18:58
little, you know, player thingy
19:03
and a list thing and a click
19:03
here thing and subscribe, and
19:07
Ooh, it's all great. And then I
19:07
can focus on features like 1.1
19:11
to speed 1.5 speed, fast
19:11
forward, you know, all these
19:15
different things, you actually
19:15
have to do a lot of work in the
19:19
background, even if you're
19:19
working off of Apple's system,
19:23
there's still a lot of work to
19:23
get it the way you want to build
19:26
your app, your your radio
19:26
receiver. And so most of the
19:31
smaller podcast apps, we're all
19:31
tying into Apple's database
19:35
because you it really takes a
19:35
lot of horsepower and hands on
19:39
management to keep a million and
19:39
a half podcast feeds sorted, you
19:44
know, updated, and just you
19:44
know, that it's, it's much
19:47
bigger than it seemed it's not
19:47
unmanageable. It's not Google
19:50
level stuff, but it is it's
19:50
quite a bit for an independent
19:53
developer who has to have, you
19:53
know, many machines running
19:56
databases, etc. So with that in
19:56
place, Went Apple removed a
20:01
podcast that went like dominoes
20:01
all the way down the line. It's
20:05
like, Oh, no, you can't get that
20:05
podcast on any of these apps, or
20:08
most of them, right. And that's
20:08
the problem that it's it's like,
20:13
you have a transmitter but
20:13
someone's deflecting the beam,
20:16
you know, and that is the reason
20:16
why podcasting has not been
20:21
super successful with
20:21
advertising the way YouTube has,
20:24
is because it's distributed
20:24
because it doesn't belong to one
20:27
single company. And, and it's,
20:27
in my mind, when that when my
20:34
friend Joe Rogan went to
20:34
Spotify. That's a part of the
20:37
story. Because I know that
20:37
that's going to, you know,
20:41
Spotify is paying for him to
20:41
take his audience over to
20:44
Spotify. And hopefully, what
20:44
they hope is that they will then
20:49
change their podcast listening
20:49
behavior to using Spotify,
20:53
because they believe that almost
20:53
everything is on Spotify, and
20:56
quite a lot is not everything,
20:56
but quite a lot. That leaves a
21:00
vacuum, a super vacuum for
21:00
people who have who make podcast
21:05
apps. Because now one of the
21:05
reasons that eight or 10 million
21:09
people had to use their app to
21:09
listen to the Joe Rogan podcast
21:12
just went away to the
21:12
competition, one step over on
21:16
your screen, and that Spotify,
21:16
that's that sucks. So I need to
21:20
first of all ensure that the
21:20
next five Joe Rogan's who are
21:24
outside of the Spotify place,
21:24
and they're already born, Joe
21:28
said himself, they're here
21:28
today, they have the same reach
21:32
that they can have the same
21:32
great reach amongst audiences.
21:36
And also independent apps, just
21:36
podcast apps that people love
21:40
their podcast apps, they get
21:40
very wedded to them. And that we
21:44
don't want to end up in a
21:44
scenario where if you want to
21:47
listen to the shows, you like to
21:47
listen to that it's like the
21:51
television experience, which I
21:51
think is already an outdated
21:55
model. And that's why I go to
21:55
Netflix for this, I had Hulu for
21:59
this, I got to Amazon for this,
21:59
I got Disney plus for that I got
22:03
Oh Disney for that I got Apple
22:03
plus for this. And then at the
22:06
end of the day, you wake up you
22:06
go, I got $250 worth of
22:09
subscriptions to watch, you
22:09
know, eight shows, this is this
22:13
is too much. So and and that's
22:13
the second part that I'm working
22:18
on is retooling podcasting as a
22:18
platform of value. So that we
22:22
can operate in a, I think a
22:22
postmodern structure where
22:27
everybody can make money,
22:27
including, and maybe most
22:30
importantly, the people who
22:30
bring it to you, namely the app
22:34
developer. So I was adamant that
22:34
whatever we come up with, that
22:38
has to be a part of part of the
22:38
value flow.
22:44  Tom
Let me ask a question.
22:44
Because when the deal went down
22:46
with Joe Rogan, it's something
22:46
we talked about on Buzzcast was
22:48
just how Hey, podcasters, we
22:48
need to pay attention to what's
22:52
happening in the industry. And
22:52
we took our podcasts off of
22:58
Spotify, because we were
22:58
concerned about what we saw
23:01
going on in the industry. But
23:01
the feedback that we got was
23:03
overwhelming from from
23:03
independent podcasters. They
23:06
didn't understand what the big
23:06
deal was. They said, hey, look,
23:09
this, this is great for
23:09
everybody. If Joe Rogan's
23:12
getting this massive payout to
23:12
go to Spotify. Why is that a bad
23:15
thing for podcasters? Or for
23:15
podcasting? And so can you maybe
23:20
back up in kind of frame that
23:20
from to answer that question of
23:25
why is that? Why is that a bad
23:25
thing? Because if I'm on
23:28
Spotify, that's more people that
23:28
are listening to my podcast,
23:30
why? Why would I be concerned
23:30
with that?
23:34  Adam
Without fail, even what
23:34
you send up to Apple to get
23:37
included there. But certainly,
23:37
with Google, Amazon and Spotify,
23:44
you sign a contract. And the
23:44
Spotify contract is fantastic.
23:48
It says by clicking here, you
23:48
agree to give to us now having a
23:53
full license, paid in full, you
23:53
get nothing but so that's it
23:58
paid in full zero dollars. And
23:58
we can do anything we want. And
24:03
we can cut it up edit it, we can
24:03
make new shows out of it. If we
24:07
want to we can do whatever we
24:07
want. And no, no, that's just a
24:10
hard No. And people don't read.
24:10
So like, Oh, clickety Click
24:15
good. It's all good. I'm in and
24:15
you know, they give some leeway.
24:18
Or if you already have a host, a
24:18
host read. That's okay. Well,
24:22
we'll see how long that lasts.
24:22
But ultimately, they're now
24:25
doing pre rolls to pre rolls and
24:25
mid rolls. So you get
24:28
advertising in front of your
24:28
show. Not all of them, but some
24:31
will have them in the middle of
24:31
the show. And I don't know, it
24:35
depends for everybody. I
24:35
personally, I like ownership of
24:39
what I do and what I do with my
24:39
partners. You know, I mean, I'd
24:42
never put it up on Spotify To
24:42
start with, you know, those like
24:45
some eat, you know, they spam
24:45
every podcast or Hey, put your
24:49
stuff in a, you know, on the
24:49
Spotify. So I go take a look. So
24:53
it's already there, but it's not
24:53
in my account. So I said How is
24:55
this possible? And then they
24:55
sent me to some website that
24:59
said For a content, legal
24:59
copyright claim, well, I'll do
25:03
no such thing. See you, I'm not
25:03
gonna get into a legal argument
25:07
with you, I'm not gonna go
25:07
through this form and sign
25:10
anything. And two days later,
25:10
they took it off. And I think
25:13
that's because they're rolling
25:13
out the ads. And they know that
25:16
if they had that there without
25:16
my signature, that they were in
25:18
violation. So they purge that,
25:18
and I was quite happy. So I
25:21
didn't have to go through any,
25:21
any process. I also am not so
25:27
sure that Spotify as a podcast
25:27
platform is going to be that
25:31
successful. The reason I think
25:31
that is the people who have been
25:37
enjoying podcasts, probably a
25:37
different from the people who
25:41
use Spotify, when I'm in the
25:41
car, or when I'm roving around
25:45
or doing the dishes, whatever
25:45
my, my secondary thing is that
25:49
I'm doing while I'm enjoying
25:49
something on my ears. It's
25:54
podcast, it's not music, I and
25:54
so I'm just not really a music
25:57
guy. If I want some Spotify for
25:57
dinner, or in the evening, or
26:02
you know, and then I'll put it
26:02
on, but I'm more of a podcast
26:05
person, I believe people,
26:05
there's two different kinds of
26:07
people. And the people who were
26:07
listening to podcasts elsewhere
26:10
may stick with that experience,
26:10
because it is an experience. If
26:13
you using overcast it's very
26:13
different from Spotify. In many
26:17
ways. Spotify may catch up, I
26:17
don't know. But I also know some
26:21
of the numbers. The Michelle
26:21
Obama podcast, which was
26:24
purchased, you know, in the Joe
26:24
Rogan like deal I don't think
26:27
for the same amount of money but
26:27
for a lot. And they launched
26:31
with two sponsors with actually
26:31
was Procter and Gamble. So
26:34
they've tied and Donnie at dawn,
26:34
tide and Dawn, and I had heard
26:40
that there was very low
26:40
listenership. And I heard it
26:43
about three days before Spotify
26:43
announced, Wow, this is so
26:48
great. We're gonna put it on all
26:48
platforms. a cry for help
26:53
saying, Oh, crap, we can't
26:53
deliver the audience. We sold
26:57
this to the sponsors for so they
26:57
have a problem delivering the
27:01
audience. They may have the
27:01
audience, you can get it you can
27:04
by Joe Rogan's audience will
27:04
they stick around and listen to
27:06
other podcasts on that platform?
27:06
I think this left to prove
27:09
themselves. So I'm not so sure.
27:09
But to answer your question, the
27:12
long roundabout way, I have been
27:12
independent, I have not had to
27:17
adhere to anyone except my
27:17
partner, john C. Dvorak, or no
27:20
agenda, all my others face,
27:20
whatever I want to do. No one
27:24
can can take me off, no one can
27:24
remove my feed. It's just as far
27:28
as I'm concerned. Spotify radio,
27:28
said it's you know, and they
27:34
want to charge me you know, or
27:34
not basically charge me by
27:37
saying we own this. We can do
27:37
whatever we want until you don't
27:40
like it anymore. What was okay,
27:40
I don't like it. No.
27:43  Tom
Now, you did say that
27:43
you're not a music guy. And I
27:47
just want to back up to the MTV
27:47
days. Did that ruin it for you?
27:52
Kevin and I, Kevin and I were
27:52
talking about before before we
27:55
got together, like I remember.
27:55
Headbangers ball. Like, I
28:00
remember setting up the VCR to
28:00
record at my friend's house
28:03
because I didn't even have MTV.
28:03
And I'd have to go get the
28:05
recording, to go watch it. And
28:05
Kevin goes, you just wonder
28:08
like, I wonder if he even like
28:08
the music that he was listening
28:11
to? Or if he just had to like
28:11
that was just the job. They gave
28:14
him?
28:14  Adam
A good question. So first
28:14
of all, I lived inside the hits,
28:18
you know, the 80s and 90s hits
28:18
for a long time, and I
28:22
definitely got burned out on it.
28:22
Yeah, and, and because of the
28:25
radio stuff. I know every single
28:25
song I know the intro. I know
28:29
when the vocal start. I can't
28:29
sing any of the lyrics because
28:32
I'm always queuing up another
28:32
record. So I know how it ends.
28:36
Not yours ball was I really
28:36
liked it for a number of
28:39
reasons. One, it was something
28:39
that I looked the part so you
28:42
know, I just had to throw on a
28:42
leather jacket. But what I found
28:45
out really quick is this is top
28:45
and most metal and certainly
28:51
stuff we played is top notch
28:51
musicianship I mean really,
28:55
really good. Like classically
28:55
trained good. And and that I
29:00
always got off on that. And I
29:00
love that and whenever we had
29:03
guys coming by, of course, you'd
29:03
have the beat cage no one is
29:06
zonked out or crazy or whatever,
29:06
that's part of the World
29:10
Wrestling idea of metal and
29:10
Headbangers ball, but most of
29:14
these guys and gals were real.
29:14
And I always enjoyed that. And
29:18
when I when they understood that
29:18
I understood the music and, and
29:21
the composition. And I do know a
29:21
lot about that. We found each
29:26
other immediately and I had no
29:26
problem listening to metal, or
29:30
most of this. In fact, what I
29:30
hated about Headbangers ball is
29:33
that because of MTV being afraid
29:33
of alienating people, every
29:37
third video was Bon Jovi. You
29:37
know. It's like, Okay, so that
29:46
was kind of lame, you know, you
29:46
can't be you know, having
29:49
Metallica and then Bon Jovi
29:49
after that. It makes sense. But,
29:54
you know, for the, whatever
29:54
their reasons were, that's
29:57
that's how they did that. So and
29:57
I actually I took around about
30:01
way after, when I got more into
30:01
one of the internet after I left
30:05
MTV, I started listening to a
30:05
lot classical kind of detox just
30:10
from everything. And I moved to,
30:10
I moved to Texas, I really got,
30:16
you know, I really got into
30:16
country, modern country. And by
30:19
the way, it's a lot of the guys
30:19
from the hair bands in the 80s,
30:22
who are playing that drums and
30:22
bass and guitar for some of the,
30:25
you know, for some of the big
30:25
country guys, so I love
30:28
listening to to talk, whatever
30:28
it is I can, I can probably
30:31
listen for a while.
30:32  Kevin
So I think we had a good
30:32
conversation about the idea of
30:36
open versus platform, right. And
30:36
the the downsides to the
30:41
platform is control, you got to
30:41
play by their rules, they could
30:44
pull the plug on you at any
30:44
second, you're building whatever
30:47
you're building in somebody
30:47
else's, you know, playground,
30:49
right, right. But there's also
30:49
benefits to platforms. And some
30:56
of those benefits are like, the
30:56
ability for a platform to
31:01
improve the listener experience.
31:01
Like if they control everything
31:04
kind of soup to nuts, right?
31:04
Like, that's an easy task for
31:07
them, or discoverability. So
31:07
you're already listening to
31:10
this, hey, and we know all this
31:10
stuff about you, because you
31:13
signed up and gave us your
31:13
credit card and told us where
31:15
you live and told us how old you
31:15
are. So you're probably gonna
31:17
like this too. Like, they can
31:17
help recommend things and
31:20
building those algorithms,
31:20
building those listener
31:22
experiences. That's if we want
31:22
open if we don't want people to
31:27
go to platforms, that's what we
31:27
have to compete with. Right?
31:30
Like, that's why YouTube is
31:30
winning the video space, right?
31:33
Because they've created a great
31:33
environment to be able to
31:36
discover and find and enjoy
31:36
video content. So how do we do
31:40
that in the podcasting space,
31:40
and, you know, kind of leading
31:43
into this discussion that I want
31:43
to have about these these new
31:46
namespace tags that we're
31:46
developing? Because I think
31:49
that's what we're trying to bite
31:49
off is how do we improve the
31:52
listening experience? How do we
31:52
bring some of these technologies
31:56
that traditionally have only
31:56
been developed in platforms, but
31:59
we can do them in the open space
31:59
if we all work together?
32:02  Adam
Okay, so here's my
32:02
experience over the past 15,
32:06
almost 20 years, is that
32:06
podcasting is typically long
32:11
form it you know, rarely Is it a
32:11
five minute 10 minute podcast,
32:15
of course, they exist. Lots of
32:15
people enjoy them, half hour
32:18
shows, but I think they're in
32:18
general a little bit more long
32:21
form than your typical YouTube
32:21
video. And so I don't think a
32:27
recommendation engine I see, you
32:27
know, Apple is working on it.
32:31
And Spotify is working on it.
32:31
Yeah. Okay, you know, but you
32:34
it's not It's same thing to
32:34
sample a podcast, versus a
32:40
YouTube video. And YouTube is
32:40
pretty well defined what that
32:44
format is, in general, just for
32:44
the Quick Hits, and you know,
32:48
and yes, when you're in a
32:48
YouTube hole, and you're looking
32:52
at cat videos, you want more cat
32:52
videos, that you know, a podcast
32:56
is, it's just a whole different
32:56
animal. And I find the
32:59
recommendations. And we've never
32:59
advertised, never, never done
33:03
any of that is mouth to mouth.
33:03
Well, we really turned it around
33:07
from the get go. We said you,
33:07
our audience, you're not
33:09
listening to your producers, so
33:09
you better start producing. That
33:11
means you to send this money and
33:11
you need to send this
33:13
information and we need to be
33:13
able to rely on you. And if you
33:16
have expertise, so we've made it
33:16
unlike radio where the only feet
33:21
Well, I come from radio when you
33:21
get mail. I mean, I had an MTV,
33:24
even I had mailbags mail bags
33:24
full in my dressing room. Now,
33:29
that was the feedback loop. And
33:29
then, you know, on radio, we had
33:32
the telephone, but it was kind
33:32
of like, hey, you're calling
33:34
100? What's your name? shanique.
33:34
What's unique? Are you calling
33:36
from Brooklyn, but you're
33:36
calling 100? You know, that's
33:40
kind of the that's kind of it.
33:40
And maybe you troll the phone
33:42
lines during a song and talk to
33:42
some listeners. There's really
33:45
no, there's not really No, no
33:45
feedback engine. And now I think
33:50
for YouTube, you see, you know,
33:50
comments is, is a big place for
33:54
that immediate feedback, by the
33:54
way of which the people who make
33:57
those videos Oh, nothing. That's
33:57
all Google alphabet, YouTube,
34:01
they own that all. I mean, how
34:01
many times you like oh, this
34:04
would be a cool video and it's
34:04
gone taken down remove by user
34:08
doesn't exist violated Terms of
34:08
Service, the experience is
34:11
getting worse. And that nothing
34:11
really little to do with
34:15
political bias. It's not brand
34:15
friendly. advertising is
34:18
censorship. So with with
34:18
podcasts, it's really the tribe
34:23
that you build, and the tribe
34:23
around you. And it doesn't, what
34:27
I've learned is it doesn't
34:27
matter how small or how big that
34:29
tribe is, if you could
34:29
communicate with him and you
34:32
give them enough ways to talk to
34:32
you sure, email short. You can
34:35
have forums, comments, whatever,
34:35
we have a chat, which we call
34:40
the troll room, but we have many
34:40
ways for people to feedback we
34:43
and we also gave away all our
34:43
data, everything we have, we
34:47
have for search engines. We
34:47
have, you know, just
34:50
unbelievable amounts of
34:50
promotional sites that do
34:52
something specific for the show
34:52
about the show, all put together
34:56
by our producers, our audience
34:56
and it is is a totally different
35:01
beast. I don't think it can be
35:01
recreated in any manner like
35:05
that in any other medium is very
35:05
specific to podcasting. And that
35:09
format of programming that it's
35:09
to me it's I think we'll see
35:14
better things coming from the
35:14
podcast apps to help. An a
35:19
podcast app also has an
35:19
audience. They you know, they
35:23
have an identity. It's not
35:23
shining right now. But why
35:28
wouldn't a podcast app be able
35:28
to do deals with a podcaster and
35:34
promote their podcast? Yeah,
35:34
this is free market. None of
35:39
that is enabled. And now comes
35:39
in the namespace and the
35:44
expansion that we're putting in
35:44
place, we're podcasting. And
35:47
what we when Dave and I start,
35:47
Dave Jones, and I started on
35:50
this journey. We said, let's
35:50
just see what everybody wants.
35:55
And let's not have a big meeting
35:55
about it, we'll put into the
35:58
document, which, as you know,
35:58
all of a sudden, smart people
36:02
show up and know how to write
36:02
the document and put it in the
36:05
right format. And everyone's
36:05
collaborative. And, and it turns
36:08
out, there's really no issue.
36:08
The only thing is Apple's not in
36:12
the conversation, or Spotify is
36:12
not in the conversation. Well,
36:14
they clearly don't care about
36:14
us. So why don't we make our own
36:19
space the way we want it to be
36:19
and what I've seen from captions
36:23
to transcripts to ratings to, I
36:23
mean, goes the list goes on and
36:27
on. All these things are great,
36:27
and everyone has one or two
36:31
specific ideas they want to
36:31
implement. Well, let's put it
36:34
all in. And if you have
36:34
something working, you're
36:37
definitely in, it's good to go.
36:37
Because this is going to create
36:41
a Spotify as a podcast
36:41
experience is boring. It's
36:46
boring. It's the same crap we've
36:46
seen for 1015. New what's an
36:51
inbox? You know, now I got a pod
36:51
friender, where you can swipe
36:55
left and swipe right. This is
36:55
it. That's a that's a funny app.
37:00
Like, um, you know, it's like
37:00
just, I'm looking at I'm
37:03
scanning podcast the way I
37:03
would, why not anymore. But the
37:06
way I might have back in the day
37:06
on Tinder, you know, there's
37:09
cast coverage, which is a whole
37:09
different discovery mechanism by
37:14
itself. But I've seen guys who
37:14
are working on chats that will
37:18
incorporate the podcast, I mean,
37:18
this Finally, we have been able
37:22
to open it up and it feels to me
37:22
I just see this, this flood this
37:26
rush of, of a decade of pent up
37:26
creativity and ideas and
37:33
frustration.
37:35
is just like spewing out
37:35
everywhere. We've been doing
37:37
this for a month. Look at what's
37:37
happened. I mean, we've got a
37:41
lot of you guys, we got a
37:41
blueberry from the hosting side.
37:45
Was it? fireside FM
37:47  Kevin
fireside? Yeah. And the
37:47
captivate guys came in there to
37:52  Adam
modify can say they show a
37:52
lot of seeds. But Where's it
37:55
coming from? It's coming from
37:55
guys like you. And that's where
37:59
the innovation is going to come
37:59
from. And we have a front row?
38:03  Tom
Well, I can tell you we've
38:03
been we've been excited when we
38:05
found out about podcast index,
38:05
like you said it was a there was
38:10
a lot of pent up ideas, we had
38:10
tons of ideas, things that we
38:13
would want to be able to bring
38:13
to the podcaster listener
38:17
experience like what Kevin was
38:17
talking about. And we don't we
38:22
as as a host can't do it, we
38:22
have to do it in partnership
38:25
with other hosts, and with with
38:25
players with the people that are
38:29
actually going to be playing the
38:29
podcast. And so what you've done
38:32
for us, and the reason that we
38:32
are big supporters, big
38:36
supporters in our time, our
38:36
treasure exactly like what
38:39
you've talked about, the reason
38:39
that we are we we had that
38:41
mentality is because we see the
38:41
opportunity there to rapidly
38:45
innovate faster than any one
38:45
company can do by doing it
38:50
together. And so I'm really
38:50
thankful to you for putting a
38:54
group together and excited, you
38:54
know, to be able to play a part.
38:58  Adam
Well, thank you. The thing
38:58
is, is that I, first of all, I'm
39:03
correcting a mistake. I had no
39:03
idea. I didn't understand the
39:07
mistake I made, but I think I
39:07
went through it. It's like I
39:09
never thought about the radio
39:09
side of it. Also never really
39:12
thought about the actual
39:12
transmitter tower side. That
39:15
will be an example of you guys.
39:15
You know, depending on what
39:19
metaphor you look at, or what
39:19
model because it can vary and
39:22
can interchange. And I think
39:22
that a lot of people have tried
39:26
very hard to get these things
39:26
done. And to be blunt about it.
39:31
All we really saw were groups
39:31
and boards and governors and all
39:37
kinds of official titles and
39:37
fundraising and and I like and
39:42
Dave Jones, who I've been
39:42
working with for 10 years on
39:45
we've been we've created so many
39:45
cool things that that no more
39:48
than eight people use. And we've
39:48
only met once in our life, but
39:52
we've had this great
39:52
relationship and it usually goes
39:55
like this. Hey Dave. Dave got a
39:55
great idea like okay, what are
39:58
we doing? And then you know, and
39:58
then we In two days, like, Okay,
40:01
I got to work and what is it and
40:01
they're like, Oh, this is cool.
40:03
And then I wind up using it for
40:03
myself who use it for self and
40:06
it goes nowhere. But when I saw
40:06
Joe leaving to go into, you
40:11
know, to go into Spotify, and I
40:11
saw what was potentially
40:15
happening with Apple as the
40:15
mothership, I said, Dave, we
40:19
have 10 years of aggregation
40:19
experience, we know how all of
40:23
this stuff works. We know how
40:23
gnarly it can be. Let's just
40:27
let's just put this together.
40:27
And then let's just wait for
40:30
people to show up. And whatever
40:30
they want, will do. And the only
40:35
reason I think that we are
40:35
getting away with it is because
40:40
of who I am. Not I don't have
40:40
any skill really, you know, it's
40:44
like Dave Jones is really doing
40:44
everything he can. And he's
40:48
educating me as much as I
40:48
educate him probably a little
40:51
more, for some reasons, like
40:51
there's not going to be on the
40:53
pod father, so great. So no one
40:53
really saw me in public. So
40:57
let's just run, run, run, run
40:57
run before they catch up, you
41:00
know. And I think it's the
41:00
Spirit. And that's what I see
41:03
with Todd and blueberry. That's
41:03
what I see with you guys. That's
41:06
what I see with Martin from
41:06
Denmark, who showed up and
41:10
listen, because of course, we do
41:10
podcasts in 2.0 podcast about
41:14
what we're doing the same thing
41:14
we did 15 years ago. And he's
41:17
listening. I'm like, yeah, we
41:17
should have a web app,
41:20
progressive web app, well, boom,
41:20
there it is. become this hive
41:24
mind of, and we have people who
41:24
are experts in database, which
41:28
Dave is fantastic, but we didn't
41:28
know everything. This stuff's
41:31
religion. So people really
41:31
collaborating. And I've seen it
41:36
happen so many times with open
41:36
source software development is
41:39
really beautiful. And people
41:39
coalesce and it's, it's just as
41:44
much science as it is art. You
41:44
can get to code in so many ways.
41:48
And I'm not a coder, but I can
41:48
see it and I understand it. And
41:51
I and I actually do see beauty
41:51
in it. But this, there never was
41:55
a political agenda because
41:55
podcasts index is there for one
42:00
reason only. It is to preserve
42:00
podcasting as a platform for
42:06
free speech, I hope to bring
42:06
personal stuff into that and
42:13
offer many more things of value.
42:13
That would be valuable for
42:17
everybody. And you will see if
42:17
it works, it's it doesn't really
42:20
matter. Because ultimately,
42:20
podcasts index or just has to
42:24
run by itself. I find it
42:24
refreshing and very exciting.
42:27
I'm 56. And not a lot of people
42:27
get a chance to do something
42:32
again, in the mid 50s. So I'm
42:32
super excited about.
42:39  Kevin
And I can't I can't
42:39
believe it's only been a month.
42:40
I mean, we have three tags that
42:40
are like namespace tags that are
42:44
completely accepted, formalized
42:44
and have support for at least
42:48
one or more apps in the space.
42:48
So we have transcript tag, which
42:50
is supported by Buzzsprout,
42:50
podcast addict pad for pod
42:53
friend in pod news, the lock
42:53
tag, which helps prevent piracy,
42:58
podcast piracy, and we really
42:58
need anchor to jump on board
43:00
with this one. But so far, it's
43:00
been Buzzsprout pod news podcast
43:03
index, and I thought I saw
43:03
somebody else today. Didn't
43:06
fireside say they were gonna do
43:06
it. fireside is coming out too.
43:10
And then we have funding.
43:12  Adam
Well, what I like about
43:12
it, because obviously the honor
43:14
system and this is not like,
43:14
it's like some Gestapo comes
43:17
down from the digital heavens in
43:17
a rescue if you import a feed
43:22
that has a block to tag enabled
43:22
in it. But it does allow us to,
43:26
you know, someone whose feed has
43:26
been imported into an anchor to
43:31
say, Excuse me, I see this over
43:31
here, this blocked I mean, we're
43:34
basically we're giving them an
43:34
out. Yeah, right. to anchor the
43:39
thing. marginally deserved,
43:41  Tom
I feel like we solve their
43:41
problem,
43:43  Adam
we solve their problem
43:43
will support this, you know, so
43:46
anyone who comes along, you
43:46
know, all you have to do is just
43:49
reject it. It's easy, and it'll
43:49
save them so much aggravation,
43:53
human extra human resources. So
43:53
they'll do it, I'm sure they'll
43:56
come around. Otherwise, you
43:56
know, if someone is importing
43:59
your feed, you say, look, here
43:59
it is. It's got the lock tag, I
44:02
see you don't support it. But
44:02
clearly, that's telling you
44:05
something, and it's a starting
44:05
point, instead of just Hey, hey,
44:09
I think that's mine. And let me
44:09
prove it to you.
44:12  Tom
Let me ask you this,
44:12
because I know I don't know if
44:14
we're gonna have enough time to
44:14
get into monetization too much.
44:18
But I wonder you know, you've
44:18
you've been around the internet
44:21
for a long time, right? You
44:21
remember when internet met free,
44:26
anything on the internet was
44:26
free. If a book is on the
44:28
internet, it must be free. It's
44:28
totally legal for me to go
44:30
download and do whatever music
44:30
if it's on the internet must be
44:32
free. I can just download it.
44:32
It's for me, right? If it's if
44:34
it's on the internet, it's free.
44:34
And that mentality continues
44:39
today. of everything being free,
44:39
whether it's Oh, yeah, Facebook
44:43
doesn't cost me anything. When
44:43
now we're starting to learn that
44:46
it does cost us something. And I
44:46
feel like this kind of relates
44:50
to your value for value. It's
44:50
recognizing if something has
44:54
value, you're paying for it one
44:54
way or the other. Right? Like
44:58
there is a cost associate With
44:58
that, and I wonder if that if
45:02
the mentality of internet equals
45:02
free, if that is going to make
45:06
if that's one of the challenges
45:06
that we face as podcasters,
45:10
creating content, that it's
45:10
valuable. It costs money to
45:15
produce, it costs money to host
45:15
and to deliver one of the
45:19
obstacles to monetizing, or to
45:19
being able to afford to do that
45:23
is this mentality of well, it's
45:23
on the internet, it must be
45:27
free, it's on Spotify can
45:27
download, it must be free, you
45:30
know, I can just download it
45:30
with a podcast app. So it must
45:32
not really cost anybody
45:32
anything. How do you respond to
45:36
that? Like, how do you how do
45:36
you get people to understand,
45:39
you know, this value for value
45:39
approach that I know that you've
45:43
had on the no agenda podcast,
45:43
and you've talked about in
45:46
podcasting 2.0.
45:48  Adam
I'll start with that.
45:48
First, the value for value
45:50
concept started about 11 or 12
45:50
years ago, almost probably close
45:55
to the 13. When Jhansi, Dvorak
45:55
and I were doing the show, we
45:58
were doing it on a regular
45:58
basis. And it was taking up real
46:01
time. And we said, Hey, this
46:01
takes real time. We love doing
46:06
it, we see this people out there
46:06
love it, you got to send us
46:08
something, but instead of
46:08
saying, saying $5, or, you know,
46:12
making up some arbitrary amount,
46:12
who said, whatever it's worth to
46:16
you. So I would literally say
46:16
just listen to us for an hour,
46:20
what is an hour of your time
46:20
worth? What was it that getting
46:23
anything out, if you didn't get
46:23
anything out of it, please don't
46:25
send anything. And there's no
46:25
penalty, you can listen to it
46:29
whenever you want. If you're
46:29
listening, then you clearly find
46:32
some value, and it was $1 send
46:32
that. So what we found very
46:36
quickly is people are happy to
46:36
send $5. So I'm actually will
46:40
send you 50. And there's always
46:40
a couple who will send you 500.
46:44
That's a mind boggling
46:44
experience. And then you learn
46:47
very quickly that if you remind
46:47
people that this is an
46:50
outstanding product, if you do
46:50
have to make good product, a lot
46:54
of people will never make money
46:54
because it's just not good
46:56
enough. But I believe that even
46:56
if 10 people love your podcast,
47:01
they will be they will sustain
47:01
you. You just have to say I need
47:05
an X amount to get by, and this
47:05
is what I need. And if you don't
47:09
do it, then I have to go find
47:09
something else to do. It's not
47:12
begging it's value for value.
47:12
It's It's interesting, I think
47:16
the most important thing I hear
47:16
for me to hear is someone who I
47:20
respect as an interviewer, a
47:20
host a personality, whatever it
47:24
is, to all of a sudden break
47:24
away and do some bullcrap spin
47:28
about some product, you know,
47:28
they don't give a crap about
47:30
superbeets Fine, whatever. You
47:30
know, that, to me is insulting.
47:34
That's really insulting. I'm not
47:34
against advertising. But I did
47:37
find that the nature of
47:37
podcasting is incompatible with
47:42
advertising. And I don't mean
47:42
Tommy, john, I don't mean
47:45
Squarespace, I'm talking about
47:45
brand advertising, Procter and
47:48
Gamble, a BMW General Motors,
47:48
pharmaceutical a guy but that's
47:54
where your money is. Otherwise,
47:54
you're just stirring around a
47:56
little pieces of food, if we're
47:56
serious about it. We're brand
48:00
unsafe by nature. And there's no
48:00
way for anybody to go through
48:04
every single podcast to make
48:04
sure that nothing offensive was
48:08
said, and you know, where we're
48:08
at it's advertising is now being
48:11
used as a weapon. And that's the
48:11
canceled cultures. It's because
48:15
someone doesn't like you would
48:15
go after your advertisers.
48:17
That's it, not because of what
48:17
you say necessarily. It's just a
48:21
wedge, it's a tool. That's why
48:21
advertising is censorship. It
48:24
took me eight years and $65
48:24
million to learn that it didn't
48:28
work in podcasting, you can't
48:28
scale it, it's not interesting.
48:32
And and what you wind up doing
48:32
is classroom, a whole bunch of
48:35
ads over mediocre content, I
48:35
want no part of that. Understand
48:39
that people need to be paid. You
48:39
really have to think in a in a
48:43
postmodern way. So value for
48:43
value is not restricting your
48:48
access, not gatekeeping what you
48:48
can listen what I'm doing, but
48:53
reminding you that what I'm
48:53
doing is valuable and making the
48:55
friction for you to get
48:55
something to me as easy as
48:59
possible. Now, let me talk about
48:59
the landscape because I've
49:02
thought about this, and I'm not
49:02
ready to talk about everything.
49:05
But there's definitely a
49:05
strategy in mind. So about 3% of
49:10
the no agenda audience supports
49:10
it financially 50 to 60% and
49:16
support it with time and talent.
49:16
So you know, there's a large
49:21
part of people who just we don't
49:21
know what they're doing, they're
49:23
not doing anything. They're not
49:23
contributing, they're just
49:25
hanging out fine. So the time
49:25
and talent of sort of the three
49:30
value for value, time, talent
49:30
and treasure, time and talent
49:33
that's making the show and where
49:33
appropriate. People get credited
49:37
as a producer. Most of them want
49:37
to be kept anonymous, but people
49:41
get a huge kick out of hearing
49:41
their information being used and
49:44
that's how it should be. They
49:44
are putting the show to get I
49:47
mean, we're so great. What cause
49:47
x VJs so good. Oh man, I'm just
49:52
jacking away. I can take the
49:52
hits can put it together. I can
49:55
make it flow. And I've learned a
49:55
lot along the way. But it's
49:58
really the producers who do
49:58
that. Now the treasure part is
50:02
people who turns out numerology
50:02
they want to send a message to
50:07
so they'll send a number 333 $69
50:07
and 69 cents me, I want to get
50:12
laid 41 you know, the 42, the
50:12
most important number in the
50:16
universe on pi days $3 and 14
50:16
cents $31 and 41 cents $314. And
50:24
we of course, you can find
50:24
exactly what money is coming in,
50:27
we give you the amounts, we tell
50:27
you who sent it. And people have
50:30
a message and they have
50:30
something to say, I love you. I
50:34
love my husband, happy birthday,
50:34
or wow man that really affected
50:39
me or I had my kids listen to
50:39
this, or I actually know what's
50:42
going on with this. So it's a
50:42
it's another feedback loop. And
50:46
it's copyable. It's not that
50:46
hard to do. So we know that
50:52
people are willing to do it. And
50:52
that's about 3%. I think 1% is
50:55
doable for anybody 1% of your
50:55
audience should be able you
50:59
should be able to have them
50:59
support you financially. If we
51:03
look at the IAB numbers, the
51:03
Interactive Advertising Bureau,
51:06
which who knows, but let's just
51:06
say there's 100 million people
51:10
in the United States who listen
51:10
to podcasts, on average, a
51:14
listened to one hour a day,
51:14
seven days a week. So value an
51:20
hour at $1. So we have 100
51:20
million people 1% of that is a
51:25
million times your dollar an
51:25
hour is a million dollars a day
51:31
of people willing to give their
51:31
money to podcasts they listen
51:35
to. I think that's an
51:35
interesting market to start
51:39
with. Because once you got them
51:39
that, you know, you can just
51:43
$1 $1 per hour. That's a lot of
51:43
money. And I think we can I
51:49
think we know how to go after
51:49
it. And it's going to make it
51:52
frictionless. It will ultimately
51:52
start with a better proposition
51:58
than what we are offering today.
51:58
Spotify thinks that music is a
52:03
better music. And podcasting is
52:03
a better proposition. I believe
52:07
we can make podcasting, more
52:07
exciting, better, much more
52:10
interactive. Some of the stuff
52:10
I'm seeing talked about, about
52:14
sending, having chapter markers
52:14
being sent back into the
52:18
database for distribution, that
52:18
now you're getting something
52:21
interesting that people are also
52:21
able to contribute in some way
52:25
to, to the program, even though
52:25
it's not directly in the
52:29
program, they're doing
52:29
something, they're adding
52:31
something they're adding value.
52:31
So my dream is you press a
52:36
button, and you've got mp3 bits
52:36
coming one way, and there's some
52:40
money stream going back the
52:40
other way. And it's not one to
52:43
one, there's a couple other
52:43
people in that loop. And I think
52:47
we're going to be able to see
52:47
that in the next well, we got to
52:49
close out this first namespace
52:49
is going to freeze that down and
52:53
you know, get as many people on
52:53
board as possible. And I mean
52:57
that the uptake has been really
52:57
fantastic. And it's like, it's
53:01
like things fall in our lap. All
53:01
of a sudden, Spotify kicks off
53:05
for so called q anon podcast.
53:05
Well, I've listened to the X 22
53:10
podcasts and oh my gosh, it's so
53:10
offensive, please, why wouldn't
53:14
someone put together a
53:14
conspiracy theorist podcast app?
53:19
that just does that? Why not?
53:19
Why not? Have the god casters do
53:24
their own beautiful app just for
53:24
each individual religion? I
53:27
don't know it. It doesn't all
53:27
have to be a big library of you
53:31
can share, you can search but
53:31
you know, there's reasons why. I
53:36
think app developers who are
53:36
creating experiences can promote
53:40
a certain something that they
53:40
are also promotional people,
53:45
they need to promote their
53:45
wares. But I don't want them
53:47
doing it for a stupid banner ad.
53:47
I want to be in the mix. So I'm
53:52
gonna have to back the ATM up to
53:52
this puppy and show everybody
53:55
and then maybe we'll maybe
53:55
something will come out of it.
53:57
You know? You something fun will
53:57
happen. Not thank you enough.
54:02
Because when when Dave told me
54:02
that, you know you guys were
54:05
what you guys were doing, first
54:05
of all, how it makes so much
54:07
sense. You really jumped in and
54:07
it's really been incredible kind
54:11
and the blog post that that
54:11
really helps. And it's going to
54:15
get us somewhere it's really
54:15
going to get us somewhere. Yeah,
54:18  Tom
that's our hope. That's how
54:20  Adam
it is Travis ever say
54:20
anything. You just make him sit
54:22
there.
54:22  Kevin
Oh, he can talk to
54:22
Travis. And Mike's on right,
54:24
buddy?
54:25  Travis
Oh, I love to talk. So
54:29  Adam
I'm just looking at Travis
54:29
the whole time like anything.
54:33  Travis
So so here's something
54:33
that I think will be really
54:36
helpful for the average
54:36
podcaster that's listening.
54:40
That's trying to figure out
54:40
their place in this
54:42
conversation. So a lot of the
54:42
conversation gets elevated to
54:45
the Joe Rogan's of the world and
54:45
the NPR of the world and it's
54:47
like 1%
54:49  Tom
of the 1%
54:51  Travis
it becomes like an
54:51
untouchable conversation. Right.
54:54
And so I think that the thing
54:54
that I would love to hear from
54:57
you is the developer thing. And
54:57
I know this is an overused word,
55:03
but developing the intimacy
55:03
between hosts and listeners, and
55:06
the downstream effects of
55:06
investing in better listening
55:10
experiences, both from a index
55:10
side from a host side from an
55:14
app developer side to make
55:14
podcasting, even more special
55:18
than it already is, to then
55:18
really help you know, drive that
55:22
narrative of podcasting is not
55:22
about getting the hundred
55:26
thousand subscriber play button
55:26
from YouTube. But it's about
55:29
connecting really strongly with
55:29
a handful of people that really
55:32
love what you do. So I just love
55:32
to hear kind of your vision for
55:36
how you're hoping podcasts index
55:36
and podcasting. 2.0 is able to
55:40
bring that to life in the
55:40
future.
55:42  Adam
Well, you know that
55:42
Travis, you can't just like you
55:46
can't make a great code writer
55:46
developer, they are. Not every
55:53
person who's doing a podcast,
55:53
you know, is going to be great.
55:57
In fact, a lot probably will be
55:57
pretty mediocre as as you'd
56:02
expect. Personally, I think the
56:02
the the jewel for podcasting is
56:08
in, understand, and that's the
56:08
pot, it's not really a
56:11
technology issue. It's just your
56:11
honor. Do you listen to your
56:15
audience? And what's your
56:15
takeaway, and you know, I give
56:21
everybody everyone gets some
56:21
form of answer on the email, you
56:24
may be macro it by me to do
56:24
thanks, but I meant it, and I
56:28
sent it. But in general, I
56:28
really think the audience needs
56:34
to be a part of the production,
56:34
that's not appropriate for a lot
56:38
of shows that people like cereal
56:38
as an example. And but I think I
56:44
personally find it a little bit
56:44
boring, I want to hear the
56:46
audience is a part of it. And I
56:46
want people to think they're a
56:49
part of it. Even if they're not
56:49
participating, or that there's
56:52
that possibility to be a part of
56:52
it through one of many, many
56:55
ways. That's, that's really a
56:55
talent. And it has nothing to do
57:00
with the technology is, how do
57:00
you use this medium, we always
57:04
use the new medium with the
57:04
programming from the previous
57:07
one. So you know, it's taken a
57:07
little while, but I think I've
57:13
seen it all along is there's a
57:13
different way to communicate
57:16
with the audience and get them
57:16
involved. And they'll support it
57:22
because it's about them. Now, in
57:22
this case, I have a pretty broad
57:25
topic, but I could do it for any
57:25
I could do it for helicopters
57:28
and stuff. As long as I know
57:28
what I'm talking about, I could
57:32
do about any topic, and it would
57:32
just depend on what my goals
57:35
are. But I think again, take
57:35
that 1%. So if you have no if
57:40
you got 1000 people that are
57:40
listening, and you can get him,
57:45
Well, can you get 10 of them to
57:45
listen to participate with
57:49
finances, and 40% giving you
57:49
other things? I think I think
57:55
that's the magic right there.
57:55
It's like this, you're doing a
58:00
podcast for your customers. I
58:00
mean, let me Why am I even
58:04
telling you this, you figured it
58:04
out already. I mean, you are
58:06
doing exactly what I'm talking
58:06
about. This this is this is for
58:10
your, for your for your your
58:10
community, your tribe, whether
58:14
it's 10 people or 10,000,
58:16  Kevin
thank you so much for for
58:16
coming on and talking to our
58:18
audience. And I hope that this
58:18
helps our customers and our fans
58:23
understand what we're doing and
58:23
why we've invested so much time,
58:26
effort and energy into
58:26
supporting the podcast index and
58:29
working on this namespace and
58:29
rolling out features that might
58:32
not have necessarily been at the
58:32
top of your list. But you know,
58:34
we see that they're important.
58:34
And they're important, not just
58:37
for Buzzsprout, and for the
58:37
Buzzsprout customers, but for
58:40
the community at large and
58:40
protecting the space that we all
58:42
care and love. And so that's
58:42
what we're doing. That's what
58:46
we're excited about. Adam, we
58:46
thank you so much for kicking it
58:49
off and for being the pod
58:49
father, and for your time today.
58:53  Adam
Thank you and again, thank
58:53
you so much for what would you
58:56
guys have been doing
58:56
individually and as a team and
58:59
pay attention everybody because
58:59
this doesn't happen all that
59:02
often where you get a whole
59:02
bunch of people who just have
59:05
some loose common goals working
59:05
together and and sprouts and
59:10
trees coming out of it. And
59:10
anyone who's listening or
59:14
watching can be an active part
59:14
of that. So we look forward to
59:18
seeing as many people come play
59:18
as we can get and thank you