Podland News

The last word in podcasting news... every Thursday in Podland, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from Sam Talks Technology in the UK, join forces to review and analyse some of the weeks top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout and Riverside FM.

https://www.podland.news

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episode 15: To subscribe or not to subscribe that is the question. Interviews with Sean Glynn from Novel, Rob Loewenthal from Whooshkaa, Jess Kupferman from She Podcasts and Agnes Kozera from Podcorn [transcript]


Apologies some of the sound recordings on Sam's interviews were not clear due to a broken mic. 

Join James Cridland and Sam Sethi on this week's show

INTERVIEWS:

  • Sean Glynn - Novel
  • Rob Loewenthal  - Whooshkaa
  • Jess Kupferman  - She Podcasts
  • Agnes Kozera - Podcorn

 --- 

NEWS:

  • Entercom has acquired Podcorn, valuing the company at $22.5m. Entercom, a US radio broadcaster, owns Cadence13 and Pineapple Street Studios. Podcorn gives advertisers access to podcasters. In 2016 Google purchased the founders’ previous company, FameBit, for $36m.

  • Playing with the beta, it appears the new Apple Podcasts app will not automatically download new episodes when you follow a new show: bringing it into line with Spotify and Google Podcasts.

  • The clubhouse has added an option for higher quality audio, and recurring “clubs”. (Just update the app). Clubhouse has rewritten its terms of service to now allow recording with “the express consent of all the speakers involved”. It previously required written consent. (h/t Daniel J Lewis)

  • Twitter says it will let people record Twitter Spaces in future. And scheduled Spaces are coming.

  • Spotify has announced a new focus on women creators. Called EQUAL, it includes a set of new playlists and content, and also establishes an EQUAL Board, offering a grant to fifteen organisations across the world to work on making the audio industry more equitable for women creators.

  • ART19's “Director of Data”, Chad Hollowed, says that we’re now seeing 72,000 new podcast episodes per day (that’s five new podcasts every six seconds).

Previous Episodes: https://www.podland.news


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 2021-03-11  1h20m
 
 
00:01  James
Welcome to Podland
00:01
Podland is sponsored by
00:03
Buzzsprout the easiest way
00:03
to host, promote and track
00:07
your Podcast therapist.
00:08
sprout.com.
00:09
It's Thursday, March
00:09
the 11th, 2021.
00:12
I'm James Cridland the editor
00:12
of pod news here in Australia.
00:15  Sam
And I'm Sam Sethi editor
00:15
of Sam Talks Technology here
00:19
in the UK that joining us
00:19
this week is a Sean Glenn from
00:23
Novell, Rob Lowenthal from
00:26
And just cook Flynn
00:26
from she Podcast
00:29  Agnes
and I'm Agnes, cause
00:29
they were from thought corn and
00:31
later I'll be talking about why
00:31
the future of Podcast history.
00:36  James
She will too.
00:37
Podland is a weekly podcast
00:37
where Sam and I delve deeper
00:40
into the week's podcasting news,
00:40
which I cover daily@podnews.net.
00:45  Sam
Get involved with this
00:45
Podcast centers, a voice
00:47
message, two questions at a
00:47
Podland don't news, or you
00:50
can tweet us at Podland news.
00:53
Now this week's story,
00:53
it starts off with a bit
00:56
of Hamlet to subscribe
00:56
or not to subscribe her.
01:00
That is the question, James
01:00
or what was the answer?
01:03  James
the answer is no,
01:03
you follow Apple podcasts.
01:07
Is no longer to use the word
01:07
subscribe in a few weeks,
01:12
which is very interesting.
01:14
I noticed this when I was
01:14
fiddling around on the
01:18
beater version of Apple
01:18
podcasts I gathered that it
01:22
was covered on a couple of
01:22
podcasting shows before I
01:25
noticed it, but it didn't
01:25
make it into any of the news.
01:29
And yeah, what they're
01:29
doing is they're getting
01:31
rid of the word subscribe.
01:33
And instead we're
01:33
using the word follow.
01:36
So you will follow Podland
01:36
in your podcast app.
01:39
You won't subscribe to it.
01:42
And there's relatively good
01:42
reasons why I think Tom Webster
01:45
from Edison research said a
01:45
couple of years ago that the
01:48
word subscribe is a word that
01:48
frankly doesn't work very well.
01:51
47% of people who
01:51
don't listen to it.
01:54
Podcast think that you have to
01:54
pay to subscribe to a podcast.
01:59
And I think he's got a point,
01:59
you subscribed don't you to
02:01
Netflix, you subscribe to your
02:01
internet service provider,
02:04
you subscribed to a magazine.
02:06
So I think, there's
02:06
a good point there.
02:08
He described this as
02:08
a stone in the shoe of
02:11
podcasting's growth run.
02:13
she's very poetic.
02:15  Sam
Honestly, he did say stop
02:15
using the word, subscribing
02:18
your call to action.
02:18
So if you're using dynamic
02:18
content insertion, that's
02:21
going to be super simple to do.
02:22
Then you just change
02:22
that last part.
02:24
Of course, that will be
02:24
easy for those who aren't.
02:27
That's
02:28  James
going to be difficult.
02:29
Yes, indeed.
02:30
And I think, when you look at.
02:31
Are the Podcast apps will
02:31
Spotify has been using
02:35
follow for a long time.
02:37
Orderable uses follow
02:37
Stitcher uses follow
02:40
Amazon music uses follow.
02:42
So once you put all of those
02:42
together, along with Apple
02:45
as well, then basically
02:45
the majority of all of
02:48
your podcasts downloads are
02:48
going to be from an app.
02:51
That uses the word follow.
02:53
There are a few which use
02:53
subscribe the notable ones
02:56
in there, Google podcasts and
02:56
overcast who are relatively big.
03:01
It'll be interesting to see
03:01
whether overcast copy Apple.
03:05
I'm sure they will.
03:06
You know, Marco loves
03:06
anything that Apple does.
03:08
So I'm sure that he will do
03:08
that and Google podcasts.
03:11
to be fair, I think that it's
03:11
a good question for Google
03:15
because they've got YouTube.
03:17
And YouTube, you subscribe
03:17
to your favorite YouTube
03:20
creators, and that doesn't
03:20
cost you any money.
03:22
But then on the other side,
03:22
maybe they will want to
03:25
align with the rest of the
03:25
industry because we'll all be
03:27
talking about following your
03:27
Podcast in our Podcast apps.
03:31
So maybe Google might
03:31
change, but I think it's
03:33
probably a good thing.
03:35  Sam
Todd Cochran doesn't agree.
03:36
He says not once in 16
03:36
years, as the listener
03:38
asked if subscribing
03:38
to the show cost money.
03:41
So he's an
03:43  James
outlier.
03:43
Yes.
03:44
He says lunacy.
03:45
And I have to say, I'm
03:45
not sure that Todd has
03:48
been listening enough.
03:50
certainly way back in 2005,
03:50
when I was doing podcasts at
03:54
Virgin radio, we were saying
03:54
that you don't have to pay.
03:57
And lots of people were
03:57
asking, how much is it
04:00
the whole question about.
04:01
Are podcasts free or not,
04:01
has always been an issue.
04:04
So it's nice to actually
04:04
see, to be honest, Apple
04:08
following Spotify in this
04:08
particular case, why not?
04:10
let's use the same word across
04:10
all of the podcasting landscape.
04:14
And I think that's, it's
04:14
probably a good thing that
04:16  Sam
Matt deacon and I
04:16
are on the same page here.
04:18
I have to tell you, James.
04:20
Because Matt suggested
04:20
subscribed to follow
04:22
might be ahead of a paid
04:22
subscription option.
04:24
And that's what I was thinking.
04:25
We've talked about it for
04:25
a couple of weeks now that
04:28
when is Apple going to turn
04:28
on subscriptions, we know
04:31
that they are going to do it.
04:32
eventually payments,
04:32
subscriptions.
04:35
This, I think must
04:35
be making the way.
04:38
I think it's just
04:38
paving the way for it.
04:39
So move the word, subscribe
04:39
out the way, stick the
04:42
word following, and then
04:42
we'll bring in the word
04:44
subscribe to mean payments
04:44
and what it's supposed to be.
04:47
So what's the timeline.
04:48
And what do you think?
04:50  James
Yeah.
04:50
so the timeline for this change
04:50
to be made in Apple podcasts
04:53
is whenever iOS 14.5 comes out,
04:53
which is typically during March.
04:58
That's what most
04:58
people are thinking.
05:00
It might be early April.
05:01
It depends.
05:02
Depends.
05:03
Whether are or not.
05:03
There are a lot of bugs in
05:03
14.5, but the current standards
05:08
that's probably when we'll see
05:08
it now, Apple has said nothing
05:11
about paid subscriptions.
05:14
Quite a few people are
05:14
pretty adamant that this
05:16
has nothing to do with it.
05:17
But at least, as Matt says,
05:17
it does free up that call
05:21
to action in the future to
05:21
be used for paid services.
05:25
Yeah.
05:25
I can certainly see that
05:25
happening and we know
05:27
full well that Spotify
05:27
is going to do this.
05:29
Anyway.
05:29
Now
05:29  Sam
that brings on
05:29
a second question.
05:31
Automatic downloads.
05:33
Are they going to stop
05:33
automatic downloads, Apple?
05:36
How are they going
05:36
to keep them going?
05:38  James
Yeah.
05:38
So on Wednesday I played a
05:38
lot with the beater which
05:42
I have, and I saw a number
05:42
of chats from other people
05:46
saying this as well, that
05:46
it didn't automatically
05:49
download new episodes.
05:51
So you follow a new show.
05:52
It then gave you a download
05:52
button that you could then
05:56
click on to download shows.
05:58
So it wasn't doing
05:58
that automatically.
06:01
So I reported that on Wednesday
06:01
and actually quite a lot of
06:03
people said, brilliant, good.
06:05
Finally we're actually seeing
06:05
an intent based Podcast stat.
06:10
we will know how many listeners
06:10
that we have because there
06:13
won't be automatic downloads.
06:15
There'll be.
06:16
Just streaming on demand
06:16
or progressive download on
06:19
demand and everything else.
06:20
So publish that yesterday.
06:22
Anyway, I had an email
06:22
from someone overnight.
06:25
Can't tell you who, but
06:25
anyway it turns out that's it.
06:28
Yes.
06:29
it was somebody that may
06:29
or may not know a thing or
06:31
two about this, and they
06:31
said, this is not true.
06:35
And actually there's a known
06:35
bug in the current beater.
06:38
It's already been fixed
06:38
around auto downloads, which
06:41
has turned auto downloads.
06:43
Off, but there is no change
06:43
in automatic download
06:46
behavior planned in iOS 14.5.
06:49
And I thought, really
06:49
I'll go and check that.
06:52
So I went to check today, I
06:52
reset my iPod touch, which is
06:56
my only small Apple device.
06:59
I went to reset that
06:59
I'm running an anonymous
07:02
install of iOS 14.5.
07:04
So it's got none of my
07:04
personal information in there.
07:07
And automatic
07:07
downloads are enabled.
07:09
By default both in the
07:09
settings app and in the
07:13
Podcast app itself per Podcast.
07:16
So yes, there is absolutely
07:16
no change in terms of
07:18
automatic downloads.
07:20
I thought it was interesting
07:20
though, seeing that the worst,
07:23
some quite positive murmurings
07:23
about that actually happening,
07:27
but that's not going to happen.
07:29  Sam
Now last week we reported
07:29
on pod news that I heart
07:32
media had announced a new
07:32
partnership with novel here
07:36
in the UK, a podcast producer.
07:39
And I caught up with Sean
07:39
Glynn, the CEO and founder of
07:43
Novell to talk about what the
07:43
deal means and what Novell's
07:46
plans are for the future.
07:47
Hello.
07:48
I'm joined today by Sean Glenn.
07:50
Who's the CEO of novel.
07:52
Who recently did the deal
07:52
with iHeart media, Shauna.
07:56  Sean
Hi Sam.
07:57
Thanks for having me
07:58  Sam
pleasure.
07:58
So for those who don't
07:58
know who or what is novel?
08:01  Sean
So a novel is a production
08:01
company based in London.
08:04
We're about four years old now.
08:05
should I tell you to backstory.
08:07
Please.
08:07
no worries.
08:08
so you almost about,
08:08
four years old.
08:10
I started the company at that
08:10
time, I was making documentaries
08:14
for BBC radio four and I went
08:14
to the guys there and said, I
08:18
want to form my own company.
08:20
And there were some other
08:20
like-minded people who I
08:22
thought might be able to help.
08:24
So we formed the company.
08:25
and when I won the biggest
08:25
supplies to radio four, which
08:27
is great and around that
08:27
same time to audible and
08:29
Spotify, we're moving into
08:29
the UK in quite a big way.
08:32
And so we started making a
08:32
series for those guys, and that
08:35
will be in a factual space,
08:35
investigations, comedies,
08:37
dramas, all sorts, really.
08:40
and that was all riding
08:40
around very nicely.
08:42
And we decided we wanted to
08:42
put some stuff out into the
08:45
normal Podcast space for
08:45
everyone to be able to enjoy.
08:48
So we teamed up with Bellingcat
08:48
and we've done a couple of
08:50
seasons of that won lots of
08:50
awards and great listenership
08:53
And we also seen the
08:53
premier league to launch a
08:55
weekly show with those guys
08:55
which is also doing great.
08:58
And that brings us to around
08:58
20, the end of 20, 19, 2020
09:03
where we hired some more people,
09:03
started taking development
09:05
of ideas even more seriously
09:05
than we were beforehand and
09:09
started talking to iHeart about
09:09
a number of different shows.
09:12
and we ended up just
09:12
sending them over.
09:13
We are working on cause we just
09:13
want to show them everything.
09:15
They were a great sort of.
09:17
Group to go back and
09:17
forth with ideas on.
09:19
And they brought forward this
09:19
idea of a slate deal for three
09:22
years to do 11 big series with
09:22
them which is super exciting.
09:26
And it enables us to go onto
09:26
the next step as a company to
09:29
hire some more people and to
09:29
grow novel and make it what we
09:33
hope to be the most exciting
09:33
audio company in the UK.
09:36  Sam
So let's take
09:36
a few steps back.
09:38
So what shows were you
09:38
producing for the BBC?
09:41
Some names possibly.
09:43  Sean
Sure.
09:43
Yes.
09:43
mainly one-offs and series
09:43
for BBC all the way back then.
09:48
we did a narrative
09:48
history of diplomacy.
09:51
we did a number of different
09:51
archive, our programs, a number
09:54
of different investigations
09:54
and lots of, point of view,
09:57
radio for programs, where we
09:57
worked with the journalists.
09:59
We really liked to take apart a
09:59
belief of theirs and challenge
10:03
it and support it and so that's
10:03
what we were doing for the
10:06
BBC all the way back then.
10:07
And
10:08  Sam
Amazon with audible.
10:10
And what was some of the
10:11  Sean
shows there maybe?
10:12
Sure.
10:12
So hijacked histories
10:12
is a great one.
10:14
We did for audible.
10:16
that's where the historian
10:16
Dominic Sandbrook that's
10:18
a real favorite of ours.
10:19
We'll probably be doing some
10:19
more of that for Spotify.
10:22
we have done a really
10:22
strange, but probably my
10:26
favorite show we've ever done.
10:28
for those guys called few
10:28
tile attempts at surviving
10:30
tomorrow should vary.
10:32
Depressing title, but that's
10:32
where the with a comedian
10:35
and artists called Kim noble.
10:37
and that's also
10:37
produced by Ben brick.
10:39
Who did the, have you
10:39
heard George is Podcast,
10:42
which is excellent.
10:43
Ben bricks is complete
10:43
one-off and that's a sort
10:45
of very strange combination
10:45
of comedy, factual arts
10:49
drama, all rolled into one
10:49
which was a real experiment
10:53
that turned out great.
10:54
It got such fantastic reviews.
10:55
So very happy about that.
10:57
And I've been
10:57  Sam
brick scraped.
10:58
Cause I interviewed George
10:58
for one of the festivals.
11:01
I did it back in March
11:01
last year, so great
11:04
Podcast and great producer.
11:06
So well done.
11:07  Sean
So he's also done
11:07
all the sound design and
11:09
editing and bits of other
11:09
stuff for a, our new show
11:12
for BBC radio four calls
11:12
sideways with Matthew SIADH.
11:15
So we're doing season one
11:15
is rolling out in a moment
11:17
and then we're doing season
11:17
two and season three later
11:19
on this calendar year.
11:20
he's doing great work there too.
11:22
And with
11:23  Sam
iHeart media, are
11:23
these going to be new shows?
11:25
And is it something that you
11:25
producing completely refresh?
11:28
So what might that be
11:28
for example, or is there
11:31
nothing that you can talk
11:32  Sean
about yet?
11:33
No, I can talk about a couple.
11:34
so it will be 11
11:34
standalone series of
11:38
around 12 episodes or so.
11:40
less sort of format work, more
11:40
single story arc narrative
11:44
shows the likes of which we've
11:44
done before with Bellingcat.
11:48
we're actually working with
11:48
Bellingcat on one of the iHeart
11:49
shows, which will be Podcast
11:49
hosted by Robert Evans who does
11:52
the behind the basters podcast,
11:52
but is also by Bellingcat
11:56
and it's on the the attack of
11:56
the Capitol in from January.
12:00
looking at what led up to
12:00
that working with Bellingcat
12:02
to analyze lots of the stuff
12:02
that was recorded that day.
12:05
And it's a great story.
12:07
some really brilliant
12:07
people working on it.
12:09
so that's pretty exciting.
12:10
And then we're also working
12:10
on something called deliver
12:13
us from arrival which is
12:13
about the Mormon mafia.
12:17
an incredible sort of
12:17
backstory to that which is
12:20
this guy called overkill.
12:21
we've had lots of children
12:21
being a moment and created
12:25
this crime family in America.
12:27
And the remnants of that are
12:27
now based in Mexico and a
12:30
revolt with people, smuggling
12:30
drugs, muddling, and there's
12:33
just, hundreds of these people
12:33
were descended from him.
12:36
It's a, it's an
12:36
incredible sort of.
12:38
crime story going back
12:38
many decades about Mormons.
12:41  Sam
You've been there, the
12:41
nice ones now given your
12:45
history and your knowledge
12:45
what have you observed that's
12:49
changed over the time from when
12:49
you first started producing
12:52
shows for the BBC today?
12:54
is it the same or is there a
12:54
shift in the way that you do it?
12:58  Sean
I suppose the principles
12:58
are the same, which is that.
13:01
I think what's allowed us to
13:01
get ahead quite quickly is a
13:03
very strong focus, not only on
13:03
the production and delivery of
13:06
programs, but really keeping
13:06
an eye on consistently and
13:09
constantly developing new
13:09
ideas for narrative shows.
13:13
So we've always got an equal
13:13
number of staff developing shows
13:16
we'll be do producing them.
13:17
And that will
13:17
continue to do that.
13:19
And all the way back then
13:19
the difference was that.
13:22
if radio four turned down
13:22
an idea that was it, you
13:26
didn't really have many
13:26
other places to take it.
13:27
There were a small number
13:27
of other places, but not a
13:30
serious competitor to them.
13:32
Whereas today we love radio
13:32
four and continue to make
13:35
lots of stuff for them.
13:35
But there's audible, iHeart,
13:35
Spotify, BBC sounds global,
13:40
all sorts of partners
13:40
now to take ideas to.
13:42
and they all want different
13:42
things, radio for one stuff
13:45
that go on a linear schedule,
13:45
the Podcast guys want
13:47
something completely different.
13:48
it's just an exciting place
13:48
to be where you can develop
13:51
ideas and talk to a number
13:51
of different partners about.
13:54  Sam
How big a team do
13:54
you put onto Podcast
13:58
that you producing there?
14:00
is it like a film hundreds or is
14:00
it tens or is it once you know,
14:03
where's the numbers in there?
14:05
The team size?
14:06  Sean
Sure.
14:06
So on staff, we have 15
14:06
people and there's no set
14:10
sort of amount of people
14:10
to work on a project.
14:13
for something like we're making
14:13
a big series called kill less
14:15
of BMC sounds at the moment that
14:15
includes free members of staff
14:19
from novel and then an outside
14:19
producer based in New York.
14:23
and then it presents us.
14:24
So I guess that would be five.
14:26
And then when we get closer
14:26
to actually Doing some story
14:30
editing and some sound design
14:30
the team might increase
14:33
to about seven or eight.
14:35
so that's how it goes there
14:35
and that'll be similar sized
14:37
for the iHeart projects.
14:39
And then other partners of ours
14:39
tend to bring quite a lot of
14:41
people on from their own side.
14:42
So you might have story editors,
14:42
exec producers brought in by
14:46
the people you're working with.
14:47
So it all depends
14:47
on on the partner.
14:49  Sam
And two questions.
14:51
what's the average time
14:51
for a Podcast from idea to
14:57
inception, to, hit and what's
14:57
the cost roughly budget wise,
15:02
for these types of shows
15:02
that you're putting together.
15:06  Sean
Sure.
15:06
So I wish I could give a
15:06
better answer to that, but
15:10
the, on the time thing, I'll
15:10
give you a couple of examples.
15:13
So there's something we've been
15:13
working on for over a year for
15:16
BBC sounds that still probably
15:16
won't come out until the
15:19
fourth quarter of this calendar
15:19
year or perhaps even next.
15:22
And that will be 12 episodes.
15:23
Probably about two years worth
15:23
of work for 12 half hours.
15:27
that's quite an in-depth
15:27
one, but that's us doing
15:29
all the original reporting
15:29
and there's just a ton of
15:31
stuff to get through there.
15:33
whereas something like the
15:33
first season of Bellingcat
15:36
that's quite different,
15:36
they banning cut themselves,
15:38
had done all of the work
15:38
or the, all the reporting.
15:41
And then, we approached
15:41
them and said, you do
15:43
all this fantastic work.
15:44
Let us turn that into a
15:44
Podcast, which took about
15:47
four months for six episodes.
15:49
so those are the ranges there.
15:51
money is a difficult thing.
15:52
I'd rather not talk about
15:52
some of the different budgets
15:54
from the different partners.
15:56
we don't tend to, I don't want
15:57
it
15:57  Sam
to be so specific,
15:57
is a, Podcast like the
16:01
nature's at a million pounds.
16:02
There's a hundred thousand
16:02
pounds or is it for
16:04
peanut mountain spa?
16:05
roughly if somebody's
16:05
producing something.
16:08
Where do you think
16:08
the industry is now?
16:10
I think people are interested
16:10
as listeners on how big
16:14
is the budget roughly?
16:17
Or, towards creating a hip
16:17
Podcast just as I don't
16:20
want it on each show or
16:21  Sean
anything like that.
16:22
sure.
16:23
I'd say something like, the
16:23
BBC published their numbers
16:26
you're looking at around
16:26
eight to 10,000 pounds
16:29
for half an hour of of.
16:30
What BBC radio for content
16:30
and, those sort of budgets
16:34
spread out per episode, and
16:34
a podcast would provide you
16:36
with something pretty good.
16:38
needless to say, of course,
16:38
that when you're working with
16:40
American partners, it can be
16:40
quite a lot more than that.
16:43
but something within that
16:43
ballpark should be able to,
16:46
get a really good presenter on
16:46
board, a really strong producer.
16:50
and then you've got the
16:50
team already built in a
16:52
staff to support those guys.
16:55  Sam
How would you
16:55
market the shares?
16:57
is it not down to you
16:57
or is it down to you?
16:59
Because there's 2
16:59
million podcasts.
17:01
The noise level in podcasting
17:01
is so big and there are multiple
17:05
other production companies out
17:05
there in the world producing
17:07
great content as well.
17:09
And these were, the nominations
17:09
were announced yesterday.
17:13
and so how do you get your
17:13
podcasts above the noise level?
17:18  Sean
great question.
17:19
oftentimes up to this point,
17:19
we have relied on our partners.
17:22
we aren't at the moment,
17:22
at least launching Podcast
17:25
as novel originals, they're
17:25
coming out of Spotify, BBC
17:29
audible projects, and they
17:29
have great teams there to
17:32
support those and cross promote
17:32
them on their other podcasts
17:35
and radio shows on occasion.
17:38
we've decided something, we feel
17:38
incredibly, we feel passionate
17:41
about all our projects, but
17:41
every now and then there's
17:42
something that comes along.
17:43
that we really love.
17:45
So on the project with Spotify,
17:45
we worked for a PR company
17:47
there just to double down
17:47
on our efforts to get it in
17:51
front of all the bright people
17:51
and that the great, that was
17:53
really worth it because if
17:53
you've got something to stands
17:55
out in the market, getting in
17:55
front of the right reviewers
17:58
and the right people who
17:58
cover it on newsletters like
18:00
yours, that's super important.
18:03
Or ones we have done with
18:03
partners, such as Bellingcat,
18:06
we've done a similar thing
18:06
there where we've gone to PR
18:08
companies where we know people,
18:08
when they really understand
18:11
audio, that's really crucial
18:11
that they can't be generalists.
18:14
We tend to find people who
18:14
understand who are the players
18:18
in the marketplace, we gotta
18:18
get in front of those people
18:20
and we've gone to them and
18:20
that's worked out great
18:23
too, there's some really.
18:25
Informed people at magazines
18:25
and newspapers and newsletters
18:29
who really understand the form.
18:30
and it's just about getting
18:30
it in front of them.
18:31
Ready?
18:32  Sam
Now there's been a
18:32
massive acquisition of by the
18:35
big three, let's call them
18:35
Amazon Spotify and Apple.
18:40
Do you see that?
18:41
That continues?
18:42
And we know there'll be one
18:42
of those because one dream go,
18:44
you've seen other companies
18:44
going, where do you see novel,
18:47
I guess is the question?
18:50  Sean
Sure.
18:51
we have some big plans here too.
18:53
To, to continue to grow
18:53
the way that we have.
18:56
We've tripled our head
18:56
count in the last.
18:59
Year or so next year it
18:59
looks really exciting
19:01
with the iHeart deal.
19:03
And, we just want to continue
19:03
to expand and take our ideas to
19:08
partners that we currently have
19:08
potentially other partners in,
19:12
in, in TV and film and books,
19:12
a number of our series have
19:15
been optioned and picked up
19:15
by people in those industries.
19:18
And that's a really
19:18
exciting move for us.
19:20
we definitely be very
19:20
interested in working with.
19:22
directors and producers in the
19:22
visual worlds, because at the
19:25
end of the day, I think what we.
19:27
We'd like to produce ideas.
19:30
Firstly, that's what
19:30
it's really about.
19:31
It's about finding great
19:31
access, brilliant stories
19:33
haven't been told and excellent
19:33
individuals who can tell them.
19:36
And once you've got those
19:36
things, you can do what
19:38
you want with the content.
19:40
audio is perfect for us because
19:40
we've got great experience
19:42
in it and compared to film
19:42
and other things like that,
19:46
it's a relatively cheap entry
19:46
point money-wise to turn.
19:49
Something you put down on
19:49
the page into something
19:51
people want to listen to,
19:51
but in future, who knows.
19:54
And if we're able to take that
19:54
track record of developing
19:57
things that people really
19:57
want to listen to, it could
20:00
go into those those places,
20:00
film, TV, and books too.
20:03
that would be a really
20:03
exciting place to go to.
20:06  Sam
My final question, Sean,
20:06
can you give everyone a an
20:09
episode or podcast that you
20:09
listened to or may recommend
20:13
isn't one of yours, something
20:13
that you think is a good
20:16
example as well, but isn't
20:17  Sean
yours.
20:18
Absolutely.
20:19
so we have a listening
20:19
club, but novel.
20:21
So every fortnight we
20:21
set something for people
20:24
to go out and listen to.
20:26
and then we get together on a
20:26
Friday afternoon and listen and
20:29
critique it and, think what we
20:29
can learn from it and what, how
20:33
they've done things really well.
20:34
And what we did last time
20:34
we did listening club
20:37
last week was flood lines.
20:39
a really great podcast from the
20:39
Atlantic magazine in the U S
20:42
all about hurricane Katrina and
20:42
the sort of impact that had.
20:46
And looking at it in a
20:46
number of different ways.
20:48
I just wasn't.
20:49
I just didn't know.
20:50
It was just really
20:50
great storytelling.
20:52
I think the casting in
20:52
it was just super herb.
20:55
They chose their characters
20:55
really carefully.
20:57
They didn't overcrowd it and had
20:57
a great presenter, really good
21:01
writing, and it all just came
21:01
together really beautifully.
21:04
I'd highly recommend that
21:06  Sam
brilliant
21:06
Glenn CEO of Nobel.
21:09
Congratulations on your
21:09
deal with iHeartMedia.
21:11  James
Sean Glenn from Novell.
21:13
And I apologize for
21:13
calling him novel.
21:16
when I did the pod news
21:16
podcast a little bit earlier
21:19
on in the week clubhouse Sam.
21:23  Sam
Look, it's getting better.
21:24
they've announced a few new
21:24
features clubhouses as an
21:27
option for higher quality audio.
21:29
I'm not really sure why that's
21:29
necessary, but they go, but
21:33
they've included something.
21:34
James called recurring clubs.
21:36
What's recurring
21:37  James
clubs.
21:38
Yeah.
21:38
So recurring clubs.
21:39
If you want to do a rum every
21:39
Monday at seven o'clock,
21:44
you can just set that
21:44
automatically so that it will
21:46
automatically do all of that.
21:47
for you and the higher quality
21:47
audio is there for music,
21:49
apparently because they want
21:49
people to be able to play music
21:53
and sing songs on there as well.
21:55
Sounds like a copyright
21:55
infringement nightmare,
21:57
but still there we go.
21:58
Yes,
21:59  Sam
there we go.
22:00
They've got enough problems.
22:01
but clubhouse has rewritten
22:01
its terms of service now
22:04
to allow recording with
22:04
the express consent of all
22:07
speakers involved It previously
22:07
required written consent as
22:11
you do that with everybody.
22:12
Anyway, hat tip to Daniel J.
22:14
Lewis.
22:14
For that, I remember being
22:14
on a town hall with the
22:18
founders of clubhouse and being
22:18
told that no, it's against
22:23
everything that they wanted,
22:23
but a bit like hashtags people
22:27
started to put the red dot
22:27
all over clubhouse to say,
22:30
yeah, we are recording this.
22:32
And it's pretty simple
22:32
to record anyway.
22:34
So I don't know why.
22:36
They just don't embrace it.
22:37
Maybe it's just a time
22:37
thing as a feature that
22:39
they don't want to put
22:40  James
in yet.
22:40
it's interesting that you say
22:40
that because the other side
22:42
of the fence, Twitter has said
22:42
that it will let people record
22:46
Twitter spaces in future.
22:48
So they are very open.
22:50
For Twitter spaces to be
22:50
used as a recording tool.
22:53
They're also looking
22:53
at scheduled spaces.
22:56
So you can currently
22:56
schedule a rubbing clubhouse.
22:59
They're producing
22:59
scheduled spaces in
23:01
Twitter spaces as well.
23:04
And the good news is so far
23:04
as I'm concerned is that
23:06
Twitter spaces will be rolled
23:06
out to everyone next month
23:10
on both iOS and on Android.
23:14
The the forgotten
23:14
79% of the world.
23:18
So that's pretty good.
23:19
I enjoyed my Twitter
23:19
spaces last week.
23:22
it was a nice relaxed sort
23:22
of chat and it's interesting.
23:25
it's a very different
23:25
experience to clubhouse.
23:27
Clubhouse is very LinkedIn.
23:29
if you gave the worst people
23:29
from LinkedIn a microphone.
23:33
and that's what clubhouse is.
23:35
Whereas Twitter spaces seem
23:35
to be much more friendly
23:37
and much more relaxed,
23:37
but it may just have been
23:39
the group that I was in
23:41  Sam
is your perception though,
23:41
of what this means for Podcast.
23:45
that's really, where we should
23:45
be focusing our attention.
23:49
If you can, as we've
23:49
been talking about for
23:52
months now, record.
23:54
Clubhouse or Twitter should
23:54
Podcast has moved to recording
23:58  James
there.
23:59
I think it depends on what
23:59
type of show you're doing.
24:02
It may be a very useful tool
24:02
if you want to do a sort of
24:04
a, phone-in show or a talk
24:04
back show that I'm sure that
24:07
would be a useful thing I've
24:07
said in blog posts in the past
24:10
that it lacks a lot of the
24:10
production tools to do a proper.
24:15
Nice sort of equivalent of a
24:15
phone-in show or a talk back
24:18
show on the radio, but it may
24:18
well be useful for some people.
24:22
it's worthwhile keeping
24:22
an eye on, I think, and
24:24
certainly being able to record
24:24
automatically and natively in
24:28
the app will make it quite an
24:28
interesting tool in the future.
24:32
I wonder if you'll get RSS
24:32
feeds out of it as well.
24:35  Sam
Yeah, it'd be interesting.
24:36
the verge also keeping that
24:36
third arm of this audio, social
24:41
networking platform story, the
24:41
verge takes a look at fireside
24:46
Mark Cuban's fireside, which
24:46
he hasn't renamed with some
24:49
screenshots, but nothing more.
24:51
Did you have any thoughts on
24:53  James
fireside, Jamie?
24:54
Yeah.
24:55
they've got screenshots
24:55
of far side.
24:57
Still not launched.
24:58
It's going to have
24:58
to be really good.
25:00
Given that clubhouse has
25:00
attracted an awful lot of
25:04
people who are interested
25:04
in this sort of thing.
25:06
And Twitter spaces is
25:06
launching imminently and
25:10
is available to many of us.
25:11
Anyway.
25:12
Good luck.
25:13
Fireside Mark.
25:14
Cuban's Farside knocked down.
25:15
Benjamin's Farside yep.
25:16
But I'm not entirely convinced
25:16
that's going to be a big
25:19
thing, unless there's some
25:19
secret sauce in there.
25:22
And I don't know what the
25:22
secret sauce is likely to be.
25:25
It may be payment.
25:26
In which case you can see a
25:26
certain set of people using
25:30
it for that sort of thing.
25:31
I can see
25:31  Sam
payment coming too.
25:32
Twitter pretty quickly.
25:33
And so clubhouse, I can't see
25:33
that being significantly a USP.
25:38
I think it's a case of a rich
25:38
billionaire with time and
25:42
looking at an opportunity,
25:42
but I think Mark Cuban
25:45
probably a year too late with
25:45
what he's planning anyway.
25:48
Time will tell.
25:49
Yeah, quite
25:49  James
possibly.
25:51  Sam
Okay.
25:51
Now one of the other stories
25:51
that you've covered this week,
25:54
important news was Intercom
25:54
has acquired Podcast volume,
25:58
the company at 22.5 million
25:58
and to comms a U S a radio
26:02
broadcast that owns cadence 13
26:02
and pineapple street studios
26:07
Podcast gives advertisers
26:07
access to podcasters.
26:10
And in 2016, Google purchase,
26:10
the founder's previous company,
26:14
FameBit for 36 million James.
26:17
Unpack that story
26:17
for me, please.
26:19  James
I can do one better
26:19
because instead of me
26:21
explaining what pod corn
26:21
is all about and whether or
26:24
not it's a good fit we might
26:24
as well ask the co-founder.
26:26
She's called Agnes Qadira.
26:28
And I spoke to her earlier today
26:28
and I asked her what problem
26:31
pod corn was set up to solve.
26:34  Agnes
Pod corn is a
26:34
marketplace that makes it
26:37
easy for podcasters to find
26:37
sponsorship opportunities and
26:41
makes it easy for brands to
26:41
find relevant podcasts, to
26:45
collaborate with directly.
26:46
We created pod corn because
26:46
unfortunately through
26:50
traditional advertising,
26:50
majority of podcasters.
26:53
That are up and coming and long
26:53
and mid tail have not been able
26:57
to monetize because it's so
26:57
heavily based on impressions.
27:00
So we wanted to provide an
27:00
opportunity where podcasters
27:04
can pitch themselves on other
27:04
factors that make their podcasts
27:07
amazing, such as their expertise
27:07
on a specific topic or the
27:11
creative idea that they have
27:11
for the integration or how much
27:14
airtime they're giving a brand.
27:15
And also brands of all budgets
27:15
and sizes can have access to.
27:20
An incredible independent
27:20
creator ecosystem.
27:23
So that's it in a nutshell.
27:25  James
Yeah.
27:25
And it's very much around
27:25
influences and around
27:28
connecting advertisers
27:28
with those influences.
27:31
Absolutely.
27:32  Agnes
we really see podcasters
27:32
as next generation celebrities.
27:36
With incredible influence
27:36
and that's exactly it.
27:39
It's tapping into those
27:39
relationships in communities
27:42
that they build with their
27:42
listeners and letting brands be
27:45
part of the conversation versus
27:45
just a radio style type of ad.
27:49
So we do everything
27:49
from a host read ads to.
27:53
Topical discussions to
27:53
interview segments, to creative
27:58
integrations, unboxings,
27:58
anything, and everything that
28:02
brands and creators want to
28:02
collaborate with that sits
28:04
directly in the episode.
28:05
So we don't do
28:05
dynamic insertions.
28:08
Everything
28:08  James
is new, Which is a
28:08
big difference between you
28:11
and maybe some of the more.
28:13
Traditional Podcast
28:13
advertising companies.
28:15  Agnes
Exactly.
28:16
that is our huge differentiator.
28:18
And that's why we
28:18
created Podcast.
28:20
And again is because so
28:20
many creators don't monetize
28:23
through the traditional.
28:25
Opportunities that exist
28:25
and, or dental monetize
28:28
enough because they can price
28:28
themselves on these other
28:30
factors that make them amazing.
28:32
And also brands don't get
28:32
to discover these creators
28:35
and they have incredible
28:35
conversions through native.
28:37
there's so many studies already
28:37
through Nielsen and others
28:41
that show that host read ads,
28:41
outperform traditional ads by
28:46
50% increase in purchase intent.
28:48
So that is incredible.
28:50
And that's even a more for
28:50
things like interviews and yeah.
28:53
More engaging discussions
28:53
and then podcasting is so
28:56
perfect for native because
28:56
you have so much real
28:58
estate within the content
28:58
to do something authentic.
29:01
with video, you have 10 minutes
29:01
on average to do something
29:04
great with podcasting, it's
29:04
15 seconds and hear the
29:07
medium it's such incredible
29:07
conversational storytelling and
29:10
brands and creators can be more
29:10
journalistic and more authentic
29:14
and in their collaborations.
29:16
Now,
29:16  James
when you look at
29:16
companies like Spotify or
29:19
reportedly Apple, they're
29:19
talking about paid subscriptions
29:24
and they're obviously
29:24
companies like supporting
29:26
cast or member folder to doing
29:26
paid subscriptions as well.
29:30
Is that part of the future,
29:30
your company seems to thrive
29:33
on free rather than paid
29:35  Agnes
for.
29:35
Yeah.
29:36
I, because of the inherent
29:36
association of creator made
29:40
content as free content, I
29:40
would argue that it's going to
29:44
be very difficult for a wall
29:44
garden approach to be successful
29:47
with listeners, especially.
29:49
When it comes to personality
29:49
driven content, I think
29:52
podcasting is really meant to
29:52
be a democratized platform.
29:55
That's free for listeners, for
29:55
podcasters for advertisers.
29:59
the tools for creating podcasts
29:59
have already been democratized.
30:02
Anybody can create
30:02
now an incredible high
30:06
quality production.
30:07
Style Podcast tools are
30:07
being, for distribution
30:10
have been democratized
30:10
same with like monetization
30:13
is being democratized.
30:14
and there's so much choice when
30:14
it comes to content so much free
30:18
choice that I can't imagine,
30:18
like, why would you pay.
30:22
A subscription just because
30:22
you want to binge on one show
30:25
or one creator when there's
30:25
so much more amazing content.
30:28
and, I think the problem with
30:28
wall gardening also is that it
30:30
really devalues the very thing
30:30
that drives the ecosystem, which
30:34
is the independent creators,
30:34
because it says that, this
30:37
is premium and this is not.
30:38
And you need an agent and
30:38
you need to be behind a
30:40
paywall and in order to be
30:40
successful and you need X
30:44
amount of listeners, but.
30:45
As we've seen with pod
30:45
corn and even my previous
30:48
company, FameBit size, doesn't
30:48
equate to results for brands
30:52
size, doesn't equate to
30:52
having meaningful content.
30:55
and it also, hinders
30:55
discoverability for podcasters
30:58
because when companies put
30:58
money behind content that is
31:01
paid and the they're promoting
31:01
that, it makes it harder
31:04
for everybody to discover
31:04
the other amazing creators.
31:07
I don't see it so much
31:07
as winning with free
31:10  James
content.
31:11
Yeah.
31:11
And so if I'm an advertiser,
31:11
isn't there a scale issue.
31:15
If I want to get, 100, 200
31:15
different Podcast is talking
31:19
about my specific product.
31:21  Agnes
So absolutely not.
31:22
So with popcorn, we actually
31:22
streamlined the entire
31:25
process from finding creators.
31:28
Contacting them
31:28
hiring them at scale.
31:30
For example, one of our clients
31:30
usually mines was able to
31:33
do exactly that they were
31:33
able to scaled their brand
31:36
awareness, to collaborate with
31:36
over a hundred podcasters who
31:40
created over 360 unique ad
31:40
formats for them, the yielded
31:45
over 12.5 million listens.
31:47
And that's exactly what we do.
31:48
We allow brands to scale native.
31:51
So previously brands would have.
31:52
To collaborate with multiple
31:52
agencies, multiple networks,
31:56
just to get access to
31:56
enough talent that they
31:59
wanted to work with.
32:00
Whereas they're able to do it
32:00
in a much more scalable way
32:03
because we really consolidate
32:03
independent creators and
32:06
network creators all under one
32:08  James
roof.
32:09
So how does it work from a
32:09
Podcast to point of view?
32:11
Do you as a Podcast to
32:11
have to share your download
32:15
information or do you, is
32:15
there a prefix on there or.
32:18
Or how does it work?
32:19
How do you know how many
32:19
downloads, for example, I have
32:23  Agnes
Podcast, there's
32:23
exactly that they connect to
32:25
our prefix, which allows us
32:25
to get all that information
32:28
from their hosting providers.
32:29
And we're also partnered
32:29
with some incredible hosting
32:32
providers, Buzzsprout RSS,
32:32
PodOmatic captivate and others
32:36
that we collaborate for exactly
32:36
that reason too, to help
32:39
their creators monetize and
32:39
make it easy, just as simple
32:43
for them as we possibly can.
32:45
No,
32:45  James
it's been a
32:45
busy week for you.
32:46
many congratulations on your
32:46
acquisition by Entercom.
32:50
What opportunities is that
32:50
going to open up for Podcast
32:54
and support casting generally.
32:56  Agnes
Thank you.
32:57
Thank you.
32:57
honestly we're so thrilled
32:57
to be joining Entercom.
33:00
They're a leader in audio.
33:01
They have incredible
33:01
relationships with advertisers,
33:05
so obviously it opens up
33:05
possibilities for driving more
33:08
liquidity into our marketplace.
33:10
They.
33:10
I have some critically
33:10
acclaimed roster of large
33:13
and influential podcasts.
33:14
And we have an incredible
33:14
market of long and Mattel
33:17
creators, also larger
33:17
creators as well, but that
33:19
compliments what they're doing.
33:21
And we just had so much
33:21
synergies with the leadership
33:25
and the team around how
33:25
we see the open Podcast
33:29
ecosystem and what we want
33:29
to accomplish in terms of.
33:33
for sizing and they share
33:33
a vision and the power
33:36
of native and creator,
33:36
inclusivity, and changing
33:40
how creators are valued and
33:40
making content more authentic.
33:44
And.
33:45
And more inspiring for
33:45
listeners branded content.
33:48
yeah we're just really excited.
33:49
And our goal with this
33:49
acquisition is to be the best
33:53
Podcast or monetization platform
33:53
and most effective influencer
33:57
marketing solution for brands.
33:58
So yeah, this is just
33:58
the beginning for us.
34:02
I think also we, given our
34:02
backgrounds and previously
34:05
we sold our company
34:05
FameBit to Google and
34:08
integrate it into YouTube.
34:09
We saw firsthand the power that.
34:13
An acquisition and the right
34:13
partnership can make it in
34:17
terms of propelling your
34:17
company forward and helping
34:19
you realize your vision and
34:19
helping us feed so many more
34:22
creators and making the company
34:22
more accessible to more brands.
34:26
So it's an exciting opportunity.
34:28  James
they are, they're
34:28
a very large broadcaster.
34:30
They own cadence 13 and
34:30
pineapple street as well.
34:33
Do you think this is a wider
34:33
move from broadcasters to
34:36
leverage more from podcasting?
34:39  Agnes
Yeah, I think I
34:39
think podcasting is the
34:41
next big creative medium.
34:42
And I think, again, for us, like
34:42
we just have so many synergies
34:47
to, to work with their profile
34:47
portfolio assets already and
34:51
be integrated so well in, in
34:51
what they're already doing.
34:55
And that's exactly it.
34:56
they really see podcasting as.
34:58
As the next big thing and
34:58
podcasters as celebrities
35:02
and influencers as we do.
35:04
So it really feels like a
35:04
match made in heaven and
35:07
we feel like we'll be able
35:07
to accomplish so much more
35:09
together collaborating.
35:11  James
Yeah.
35:11
And it's nice to also hear you
35:11
talk about open podcasts as well
35:15
as obviously the walled garden
35:15
in terms of a paid subscription,
35:19
but there are other walled
35:19
gardens appearing in terms
35:22
of exclusivity, as well.
35:24
yeah.
35:24
Where do you see exclusivity
35:24
going in terms of podcasting?
35:29
Yeah, I think there's a
35:30  Agnes
lot to be learned.
35:32
I think from even the
35:32
YouTube ecosystem, like with
35:34
multi-channel networks and
35:34
agencies and how we've seen
35:38
that play out and the fact that.
35:40
Creators benefit from
35:40
having tools to do
35:43
things independently.
35:45
again, because podcasting has
35:45
been democratized and content
35:49
creation has been democratized
35:49
so well, anybody can be
35:53
their own brand and their own
35:53
creator and creators are so
35:55
sophisticated that I think
35:55
there's a great opportunity for
35:58
them to do things on their own.
36:00
I that's what I see a lot of
36:00
problems with exclusivities.
36:03
That's why we're very
36:03
open and creators.
36:05
Couldn't think of a, has an
36:05
Airbnb for Podcast advertising.
36:08
They can come and go as they
36:08
see fit and they can work with
36:11
whoever they want on their
36:11
terms, because we really see.
36:15
Creators as brands in their own.
36:17
And they have these
36:17
communities, they have these
36:19
lists, listenership, they
36:19
know their content best.
36:22
And yeah, I think that
36:22
not working out so well
36:25
down the road as well.
36:27  James
Thank you so
36:27
much for your time.
36:28
It's been a busy week for you.
36:29
I hope you get plenty of
36:29
rest over the weekend.
36:31
Thank you.
36:32
It's been
36:32  Agnes
such a pleasure
36:33  James
to chat with you from.
36:35
Pod Korn, who I hope is having
36:35
a long, nice rest now that
36:40
she has successfully sold
36:40
that company to Entercom.
36:44
Although she did say to
36:44
me, after that recording,
36:47
she said, this is where
36:47
the hard work starts.
36:49
And I think that's
36:49
probably absolutely right.
36:51
That's the earn-out.
36:52
Yes, but really good to hear
36:52
her talking about how she
36:56
and Entercom see the future
36:56
of podcasting as being open.
36:59
and you can see that there's
36:59
some obvious synergies in what
37:02
she does with the radio folks
37:02
that are at Entercom as well.
37:07
So really good for her to give
37:07
us some time on this podcast.
37:12  Sam
Another story that you
37:12
covered in pod news was art
37:14
nineteens director of data chat.
37:15
Hollowed said, wow.
37:17
We're now seeing 72,000 new
37:17
podcast episodes per day.
37:21
That's five new podcasts,
37:21
every six seconds.
37:24
That is crazy James,
37:26  James
isn't it?
37:26
Yeah.
37:26
So it's five new podcast
37:26
episodes, every six seconds.
37:30
And that's a tremendous figure.
37:32
I think it just shows
37:32
the growth of podcasting.
37:35
The amount of.
37:36
content, which is out there.
37:38
we're recording this on
37:38
Thursday, the 11th of March
37:41
in the evening, my time in
37:41
the morning, your time, we'll
37:44
find out a little bit later
37:44
on today from Edison research,
37:47
what their numbers are in terms
37:47
of people consuming podcasts
37:52
in the U S as well, and seeing
37:52
the rise there, but there's
37:55
doubtless going to be a rise
37:55
and it's, I'm fascinated
37:58
to learn by how much yeah.
38:00
Five new podcast episodes.
38:02
Yeah.
38:02
Every six seconds
38:02
is quite a number.
38:05
I think
38:05  Sam
links to a story that you
38:05
covered about the Podcast index.
38:10
It's a proposal by Benjamin
38:10
Bellamy talking about Podcast
38:14
recommendations where podcasts
38:14
is, could recommend other
38:18
podcasts to their listeners.
38:20
I think.
38:21
The one of the biggest
38:21
problems is the volume
38:23
of Podcast coming out.
38:24
Discoverability is now the
38:24
biggest problem, within the
38:27
podcasting world, have you
38:27
had a chance to look at this
38:30  James
Podcast recommendation?
38:32
Yeah.
38:32
it's a good idea.
38:33
The idea is that you as a
38:33
Podcast, maybe what we would
38:37
use it for is you would see in
38:37
your podcast player, you would
38:41
see Podland recommends the pod
38:41
news Podcast and recommends.
38:46
Sam Talks Technology and that
38:46
would be to, relatively obvious
38:50
recommendations that this
38:50
Podcast could do that, frankly,
38:54
no algorithm would necessarily
38:54
be very good at picking up.
38:58
And that's basically
38:58
what this strategy is.
39:01
But as an idea, I think it's
39:01
a great idea to actually allow
39:04
individual podcasters, to
39:04
be able to link to different
39:07
shows that they think their
39:07
audience will really like.
39:10  Sam
Excellent.
39:11
Now, if you listen to sounds
39:11
profitables podcast with Brian,
39:15
Bellizzi, you'll hear all types
39:15
of dynamic content insertion.
39:18
It's
39:18  James
very clever.
39:19
It is very clever.
39:20
And the company Brian
39:20
Barletta is using is called
39:24
. And it's an Australian
39:24
company down from Sydney.
39:27
you talked to their CEO,
39:27
Sam he's called Rob Lowe
39:30
and Tal to learn more.
39:32  Rob
In a previous life.
39:33
I used to be the CEO of a
39:33
radio network in Australia
39:35
called Macquarie radio network.
39:37
And it was a network of Talks
39:37
stations across the country.
39:40
And when I worked
39:40
there, I realized that
39:42
podcasts were taking off.
39:43
A lot of our listeners work
39:43
with tuning in and trying
39:46
to catch up on the content
39:46
that they'd missed in the
39:49
morning or in the day.
39:50
But at the time I
39:50
remember I used to.
39:51
Got him, a digital manager and
39:51
ask him how we were performing.
39:54
And he used to answer
39:54
me in terabytes.
39:56
So last month we did a number of
39:56
terabytes and I always thought
39:59
that was an unsatisfactory
39:59
answer for a digital technology.
40:03
So when I left Macquarie radio,
40:03
I decided to build a technology
40:07
platform to help Podcast is.
40:08
simply track their analytics
40:08
and manage their content.
40:12
There were other
40:12
hosting providers in
40:13
the world at the time.
40:15
However, I just thought that
40:15
there was an opportunity
40:17
for some of the larger
40:17
enterprise Podcast, as who
40:19
needed some sophisticated
40:19
technology to manage their
40:22
content, their hosting, their
40:22
distribution, and so on.
40:24
And that's how we got started.
40:26  Sam
And when you got going,
40:26
what were some of the plans?
40:29
Because I've noticed
40:29
you've got things like
40:31
private Podcast, you've
40:31
got enterprise podcasting.
40:35
So where's your main focus?
40:36
Is it on the business
40:36
side of the world or is it
40:38
with consumer podcasting?
40:40  Rob
we've certainly evolved
40:40
over the five years since
40:42
we launched the product, we
40:42
initially started out providing
40:46
Podcast is with a free platform,
40:46
a free hosting platform.
40:49
And we were commercializing
40:49
based on advertising insertion.
40:52
But over time, we've
40:52
migrated more towards a
40:54
system that it's a license
40:54
fee base for Podcast is.
40:57
And we're also focusing now
40:57
heavily on larger enterprises,
41:01
including companies.
41:02
So we've developed a lot
41:02
of ad technology over the
41:04
years, and that was aimed at.
41:06
Certain broadcasters who were
41:06
using our technology we've used
41:10
other technologies before, but
41:10
we always thought that they had
41:13
built a product that was built
41:13
for a streaming environment,
41:16
streaming radio sort of
41:16
insertion or ad replacement
41:20
model, not necessarily
41:20
for the Podcast world.
41:23
So yeah.
41:23
We've built out a lot of ad
41:23
technology tools and they're
41:26
available on all of our plans.
41:27
We talk about dynamic
41:27
insertion these days.
41:30
Like it's something new, but
41:30
of course it's been around for
41:31
years and we've made those tools
41:31
available for podcasts for at
41:35
least a couple of years now.
41:37
But we've over time now.
41:39
We've seen more opportunities
41:39
arise in the business.
41:42
Podcast so since Corona
41:42
last year, a lot of
41:47
companies now have.
41:49
A need to communicate with
41:49
employees over the years, we've
41:52
talked to them about, Hey,
41:52
why don't you do a podcast?
41:54
And often their responses.
41:55
We don't want to share
41:55
our secret recipe
41:57
with the competition.
41:59
And now that we've enabled
41:59
private podcasting, it means
42:01
that they can communicate via
42:01
audio with their employees
42:05
in a medium that as we all
42:05
know, it's very engaging,
42:08
but it's also private now.
42:10
So it means that it's a
42:10
bit more difficult for the
42:12
competitors to tune into
42:12
what you're saying, but of
42:14
course, Private Podcast can
42:14
be consumed on Apple podcasts
42:18
and podcasts just like that.
42:20
So there's less friction in
42:20
the process for a listener to
42:24
actually consume that audio.
42:27
And if they're an employee, they
42:27
might listen to your podcast
42:31
or Joe Rogan or whoever it is.
42:32
And now the company's
42:32
podcasts is sitting alongside
42:34
their favorite content.
42:36
And we're saying that a lot of
42:36
companies are saying our staff
42:39
are suffering from zoom fatigue.
42:40
So our answer to that or our
42:40
solution is tell them to get up,
42:44
walk away from the desk, give
42:44
them a Podcast and encourage
42:47
them to go for a walk and listen
42:47
to your CEO's update on message.
42:50
So that's been a big
42:50
focus of ours over time.
42:53
We've just had two fundamental
42:53
things that we've been trying
42:57
to provide, and that is
42:57
we want to help Podcast to
43:00
save time and make money.
43:02
So all of our tools have
43:02
those two things in mind.
43:07
Great
43:07  Sam
for Podcast is
43:07
thank you very much.
43:09
Now you talked about dynamic
43:09
content, insertion, or
43:12
dynamic ad insertion, the
43:12
industry users, the two
43:15
terms interchangeably.
43:17
Can you explain how your
43:17
platform uses those two?
43:19
What tools you have available?
43:22  Rob
Oh yes, certainly.
43:23
So a Podcast on any one of our
43:23
plans will upload their audio
43:27
file into whisker, just as you
43:27
do with your host, they insert
43:31
cue points into that audio file.
43:33
To identify the placement of
43:33
the ads, where they want an
43:37
ad to play in that file to
43:37
cue points can be pre-rolls
43:41
mid-rolls post rails.
43:42
You can have a large number
43:42
of those key points in each
43:45
episode, and you can identify
43:45
where and how you want.
43:49
And add the advertisement to
43:49
play or a piece of content.
43:52
A Brian's a really
43:52
interesting use case
43:54
because he's pushing the
43:54
boundaries of the Technology.
43:56
Every time he
43:56
publishes an episode,
43:58  Sam
this is Brian Barletta
43:58
from sounds profitable.
44:01
A friend of Podland, someone
44:01
who's taking what you've
44:03
developed and pushing it,
44:03
I think to his extreme.
44:06
It's absolutely.
44:07  Rob
If you think about the
44:07
number of possible combinations
44:10
of episodes that he can
44:10
generate, if you're living
44:12
in Armenia, you're probably
44:12
going to get a different
44:13
episode than if you live
44:13
in New York and London and
44:16
Sydney, but, and that requires
44:16
a lot of work on his part.
44:19
But what he's trying to do
44:19
is use the technology and
44:22
identify how it can be used
44:22
much more broadly than has.
44:26
Been done in the past.
44:28
And so we've got a whole bunch
44:28
of features that were really
44:30
built for enterprise, but
44:30
they're available on all of
44:33
our plans and he's taking those
44:33
tools and saying, Hey guys, Make
44:37
the most of your back catalog
44:37
make the most of give every
44:41
listener a unique experience.
44:43
But we always say that the most
44:43
important thing in podcasting
44:46
is to make great content.
44:48
That's 95% of the hard work is
44:48
being a brilliant Podcast, but
44:52
you've got this other 5% of an
44:52
opportunity to optimize your
44:56
content so that it's at least
44:56
personalized for your audience.
44:59
And Brian's doing that with
44:59
the ad technology with digital
45:02
ad insertion or digital
45:02
content, insertion, whatever
45:04
you'd like to call it.
45:06  Sam
I was listened to
45:06
his last episode and it
45:08
was great at the end.
45:09
It said if you're based
45:09
in the UK and it didn't
45:12
sound like it was someone
45:12
throwing it in at the last
45:15
minute, it sounded smooth.
45:17
But I know that if you'd been
45:17
in another country that would
45:19
have said another location.
45:21
So he's done a great
45:21
job and he's inserting
45:24
various bits of content.
45:26
I'm a big admirer of Brian
45:26
and what he's done with
45:28
it and the platforms.
45:29
What are your plans going
45:29
forward with what's next?
45:33  Rob
So one of the things
45:33
we always talk about
45:34
is helping Podcast save
45:34
time and save money.
45:37
So make money can be
45:37
saved money as well.
45:38
And I still feel like
45:38
the process of recording
45:41
and publishing a Podcast
45:41
requires you to be paying
45:44
a subscription to too many
45:44
different pieces of software.
45:48
You've probably got an
45:48
audio gram subscription.
45:50
You've got a squad
45:50
car subscription.
45:51
You've got your hosting payment.
45:53
You've got all those
45:53
different things.
45:54
We've built a lot of those tools
45:54
and features into our platform.
45:57
So you can publish
45:57
a video highlight.
45:59
You can generate
45:59
one from Worcester.
46:00
You've got a transcript.
46:01
You've got, we have
46:01
text-to-speech if that's
46:03
something that you want to use.
46:04
So we've got all of these tools.
46:06
So the next one that we
46:06
will vote a cloud recording
46:09
and editing tool as well.
46:10
But the next one we
46:10
launched will be a
46:13
multi-person audio recorder.
46:15
So you can record
46:15
an interview with.
46:17
A number of different
46:17
participants and have it
46:20
safe straight into your cloud
46:20
library inside of whisker,
46:22
that'll say it in five, second
46:22
chunks so that it's constantly
46:26
updated into your folder.
46:28
And then you can mix it down
46:28
inside of Oscar and add some
46:31
fighting's some music and
46:31
fade out and crop audio and
46:36
add multiple tracks and do
46:36
what it is that you need to
46:38
do to make it sound great.
46:39
So that's probably coming in
46:39
about three weeks and that's
46:41
got our attention at the
46:41
moment, but once again, it's
46:44
just about helping Podcast is.
46:45
Login is one piece of software.
46:48
Get the job done and move on.
46:50
And
46:50  Sam
the final thing, Rob,
46:50
what is it that keeps you
46:52
awake at night with wash gum?
46:54  Rob
the challenge being
46:54
your own boss and running
46:56
your own business.
46:57
My challenge is deep down.
46:59
I've got to, I don't have anyone
46:59
screaming at me making me wake
47:02
up the next day and go to work.
47:04
So my challenge is making
47:04
sure I stay motivated and do
47:07
the hard work and do the work
47:07
that's sitting on my desk.
47:10
Occasionally I started dreaming
47:10
and I've off with the fairies
47:13
thinking about some new feature
47:13
that we should be building.
47:15
And my developers come back
47:15
to me and tell me I'm crazy.
47:18
So I've just got to stay what my
47:18
biggest challenge and the thing
47:20
that keeps me up awake at night
47:20
is maintaining focus and just
47:24
executing the work every day.
47:28  James
He's a nice man.
47:28
Isn't he?
47:29
Sam yeah.
47:30  Sam
I could go for
47:30
a drink with him.
47:32  James
He'd be a lot
47:32
of thought, I think.
47:33
Yeah.
47:34
Yes.
47:34
I last saw him in Kuala
47:34
Lumpur in Malaysia,
47:37
rather than in Sydney.
47:39
I've been to Sydney less than
47:39
I have Malaysia in the last 12
47:43
months, which is a bit strange,
47:43
but still, but there we are.
47:46
I'm talking about Australia.
47:47
A Podcast Australia have
47:47
released a sounds smart report.
47:51
There's a very weird photograph.
47:54
From that presentation,
47:54
which was done to a bunch
47:57
of advertising agencies.
47:58
And it's lots of people in a
47:58
room sitting next to each other.
48:01
Sam can you think of
48:01
such thing anyway?
48:05
You talk,
48:06  Sam
what world is this that
48:07  James
you talk off?
48:08
Exactly.
48:09
but they released a bunch
48:09
of data claiming 37% of
48:13
Australians have listened
48:13
to podcasts in the past.
48:16
Three months, I would have
48:16
liked to see the one month
48:19
figure, but the past three
48:19
months is still I suppose.
48:21
Okay.
48:22
37% of Australians,
48:22
which is pretty good.
48:26
And that's your
48:27  Sam
summit, just imagine what
48:27
you'll be doing in your winter.
48:29
You'll all be listened to more
48:30  James
podcasts.
48:31
yeah.
48:31
for whatever we get in
48:31
terms of winter, it's
48:34
just slightly less hot.
48:36
That's basically how it works.
48:38
Are you an Australian yet?
48:40
I am not an Australian yet.
48:42
So what happens is you have
48:42
to pass a test, which I did.
48:44
It got a hundred percent.
48:45
Thank you very much.
48:46
Thank you for asking.
48:47
And then you hear nothing
48:47
for about five or six months.
48:51
And then eventually the local
48:51
council for some reason,
48:54
get in touch and the local
48:54
council says, good news.
48:58
You've got a citizenship
48:58
ceremony that you have to
49:01
attend and they've managed to
49:01
choose the one day in the year.
49:05
Yeah.
49:05
I can't make it, which is
49:05
the data I'm getting married.
49:09
So therefore that it's
49:09
not going to happen.
49:10
I did say to my wife to be,
49:10
I did say it'll be all right.
49:15
I just pop off for an hour and
49:15
do you can get a very good face.
49:19
yes, even as you can hear, even
49:19
the dogs, I'm happy about it.
49:22
yes, but still there we go.
49:24
So not yes in Australia,
49:24
but thank you for asking now
49:27  Sam
it was international
49:27
women's day on Monday, and
49:29
lots of things were going on.
49:30
New shows, newer dos
49:30
from Spotify, Amazon,
49:33
and other people.
49:34
What did Spotify announce James?
49:36  James
Oh, Spotify announced
49:36
a loads of things, which
49:38
is the Spotify way.
49:39
Isn't it?
49:40
And they announced a new
49:40
focus on women creators it's
49:42
called equal, which includes
49:42
a set of new playlist content.
49:46
It establishes an equal
49:46
board offering a grant to 15
49:50
organizations across the world
49:50
to make the audio industry more
49:54
equitable for women creators.
49:56
lots of stuff from Spotify,
49:56
lots of stuff from Amazon.
50:00
And it's, it was a real
50:00
thing I think on Monday, but
50:04
there's a Podcast conference.
50:06
Isn't there sandwiches,
50:06
especially for women as well.
50:10  Sam
Yeah, it's cool.
50:11
She Podcast, and I
50:11
thought I'd catch up with
50:13
Jess to talk about it.
50:15
She's a lovely lady and we had
50:15
a long conversation about the.
50:19
Challenges she's gone off
50:19
putting on a real world
50:22
Podcast event this year, as
50:22
well as a hybrid event and
50:26
the uncertainty that she's
50:26
got around, whether people
50:29
will attend or not, and the
50:29
etiquette around how they should
50:33
be behaving at a real world
50:33
conference, we've seemingly
50:36
either got to create new rules
50:36
or we've forgotten how to be
50:39
in a mass crowd with people.
50:40
Anyway, let's see
50:40
what Jess had to say.
50:50
hello.
50:50
I'm joined by the wonderful
50:50
Jessica Catherine.
50:52
She is the organizer of sheet.
50:54
Podcast Jess.
50:55
Hey, how are you?
50:56
Hey.
50:57
Good.
50:57
How are you?
50:58
Very good indeed.
50:59
Now, Jess, for those who
50:59
don't know, tell us a little
51:02
bit about, she Podcast tell
51:02
us a little bit about Jess.
51:06  Jess
I'll start with she
51:06
Podcast she Podcast is an
51:09
online support group for
51:09
women and non-binary members
51:14
who want support in starting
51:14
and maintaining a Podcast.
51:18
it was originally just a
51:18
Facebook group a couple
51:21
months later, the woman who
51:21
started the group with me,
51:24
Elsie Escobar, and I started
51:24
a Podcast Elsie is the
51:28
community manager for Libsyn.
51:29
and she and I have been.
51:30
Good friends for a lot of years.
51:31
we did a podcast.
51:32
We had the free group,
51:32
it grew enormously.
51:35
when podcasting conferences
51:35
started, we started doing some
51:39
events, mini events and little
51:39
classes at the beginning and
51:42
end of some of these other
51:42
podcasting conferences and then
51:46
a few years into it, we decided
51:46
we wanted to have our own.
51:48
So we have, she Podcast live.
51:50
we did it one year,
51:50
the pandemic started.
51:53
And so we started a membership
51:53
so that we could maybe maintain
51:56
some of that VIP level of
51:56
support without being in person.
52:01
So we now have the Facebook
52:01
group, which is free
52:05
Podcast, which is free a
52:05
conference, which is going
52:08
to be handled this fall.
52:09
And then we have a membership
52:09
called the super squad, which
52:11
is a monthly membership fee.
52:13
So far, that's it so far?
52:16  Sam
Yeah.
52:16
So far you haven't got anything
52:16
else planned, obviously
52:19  Jess
network the other day,
52:19
but I'm not sure if my brain
52:22
can handle anymore, but yeah.
52:24  Sam
Okay.
52:25
Now why did you
52:25
start podcasting?
52:27
What was the, what was
52:27
your reason for it?
52:29  Jess
being in sore need
52:29
for attention, to be honest.
52:33
I.
52:35
Had a business at the
52:35
time, it was a branding
52:37
and marketing business.
52:38
And I was trying to figure out
52:38
how to become a speaker and
52:43
sort of scale that business.
52:44
Because when you're a web
52:44
designer, you have one client,
52:47
one, maybe two clients at
52:47
a time and you don't really
52:50
work with people that often
52:50
it was a little lonely.
52:52
I was actually looking to
52:52
see what shows I could be on.
52:55
And when I looked at iTunes,
52:55
I saw Derek Halpern John
52:58
Lee Dumas Lewis house.
53:00
It was like white dudes
53:00
interviewing other white dudes.
53:03
and so I got discouraged.
53:05
Like they're never going to have
53:05
me on because they keep having
53:06
each other on and that's it.
53:08
I thought about all the amazing
53:08
women entrepreneurs that I knew.
53:12
And I thought, this
53:12
could be my show.
53:14
I should be doing a show.
53:15
I'm I've always wanted to have a
53:15
tonight show of my own kind of.
53:19
So I was excited to buy this.
53:20
And then I started a show
53:20
called lady business radio,
53:23
where I interviewed all
53:23
kinds of women entrepreneurs.
53:26
I did that for about a
53:26
year before I started.
53:29
She Podcast and it
53:29
wasn't my idea to start.
53:31
She Podcast the show Elsie
53:31
asked me to do it with her.
53:34
I'm not specifically
53:34
a podcasting.
53:36
Teacher I'm much more of
53:36
like a marketing and growth
53:38
kind of teacher, but it
53:38
works out because Elsie is
53:41
into, the tech of podcasting,
53:41
the mic and the voice, and
53:46
also, community management.
53:47
So we, we balance each
53:47
other out quite well.
53:50
Cool
53:51  Sam
now, just because
53:51
I may have missed it.
53:53
How long has he been Podcast
53:55  Jess
yeah, I started that show
53:55
in 2013 and then we started,
53:59
she Podcast in 2014 and then
53:59
later that year I had a baby.
54:03
And then when I came back from
54:03
maternity, there were other
54:07
shows about women and business.
54:08
Biz chicks Podcast had popped up
54:08
and Katie biz women rock, but
54:13
there were still no other groups
54:13
for women in podcasting and LC.
54:17
And my maternity leave was
54:17
like juggling, like crazy
54:20
people were pouring into the
54:20
group and asking a billion
54:23
questions and she was like,
54:23
thank God, you're back.
54:25
so I I didn't mean to
54:25
necessarily ditch one for
54:28
the other, but I've been
54:28
working solely on shoe Podcast
54:31
for about six years now.
54:32  Sam
And what has changed in
54:32
the time from when you started
54:36
to where you are now, what
54:36
would you feel podcasting
54:38
has done in that time?
54:40  Jess
Oh, so much has
54:40
changed since then.
54:42
if we wanted to talk about
54:42
the industry specific, it
54:45
went from being media's best,
54:45
kept secret to an explosion
54:50
of how can I get my hands on
54:50
this money with all different.
54:53
Companies and things like that.
54:55
no media company had
54:55
ever thought about
54:57
podcasting until that.
55:00
Explosion.
55:00
It might've been 2016, I think
55:00
was when serial came out, maybe
55:03
it's 2015 and once serial was
55:03
done, it seemed like over the
55:08
course of that year, every
55:08
single media company started
55:12
to have its own podcast.
55:13
Every magazine had its own
55:13
podcast, every newspaper
55:16
lots of television networks
55:16
were starting to do it.
55:19
And That's a huge difference
55:19
because what I was teaching back
55:22
then is just how to get, people
55:22
how to listen to podcasts.
55:25
It's much less of a lesson.
55:26
Now lesson right now is how
55:26
can yours be found in the
55:30
sea of all the other ones?
55:32
Just like yours.
55:34
That was not even a thing.
55:36
When I started in fact for
55:36
women, especially a lot of the
55:39
women I know started the first.
55:42
Women's show for X, the first
55:42
pregnancy show the first working
55:47
moms show the first shipping.
55:48
Podcast all about the
55:48
shipping industry.