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episode 47: Dynamic Descriptions + Making an NPR Podcast in Just 3 Days [transcript]


In this episode, Alban shares his top tips for running an event on Clubhouse, we discuss the newest Buzzsprout features, dive into Apple's decision to abandon "subscribers," and Travis explains what went into creating the last episode of Buzzcast in only 3 days.

If you haven't listened to the last episode of Buzzcast, be sure to check out "The Day Podcasts Stopped."

New features from Buzzsprout

  • Daily Downloads
  • Episode Number Helper
  • Images in Chapter Markers
  • Dynamic Descriptions


Links from today's episode

  • Podnews: Apple Podcasts to stop using "subscribe"
  • Tom Webster: Subscription Confusion, Resolved
  • Eric Nuzum, "Make Noise"


Special thanks to those how helped us promote our "How to Start a Podcast in 2021" video

  • Carol Marks, "Carol Remarks"
  • Greg Collins, "Substitute Teachers Lounge"
  • Tom Raftery, "Climate 21"
  • Eric Nordhoff, "Courage Cast - Build Your Belief"
  • Dariush, "The denimheads podcast"
  • Abdulrahman, "Civil Engineering Vibes"
  • Richie Brand, "1 Star Recruits"


Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-03-12  54m
 
 
00:00  Kevin
All right, so should we
00:00
dig into some new stuff in
00:02
Buzzsprout?
00:03  Travis
Always, always you got
00:03
some goodies for us. Already.
00:07
It's good as a host to feign
00:07
ignorance even though we all
00:11
spent an hour working through
00:11
the outline together.
00:13  Alban
I can't do it.
00:14  Kevin
I didn't even ask you.
00:14
Did you know about anything new
00:17
in Buzzsprout? I said, Do you
00:17
want to talk about some of the
00:18
new stuff and Buzzsprout and
00:18
Alban tried cracking up like
00:22
this is an honor outlines not
00:22
the next thing we have to go to.
00:24  Alban
Not only is the outline,
00:24
but we talked through which of
00:27
the sub things are on the
00:27
outline to make sure we are all
00:30
on the same page, because like
00:30
you're talking about, I don't
00:33
know, what else am I gonna say?
00:33
Yeah, let's definitely talk
00:35
about it. We Yeah, we prepared
00:35
for it.
00:40  Travis
So in the episode that
00:40
we released four weeks ago, here
00:43
on Buzzcast, we told you guys
00:43
about our new video that we put
00:46
out on how to start a podcast in
00:46
2021. And we said that if you
00:51
helped us promote it by sharing
00:51
it with your audience, you would
00:53
get a shout out. And naturally,
00:53
last episode was not a normal
00:57
Buzzcast episode. So we kicked
00:57
it forward to this episode. So
01:01
we want to give a special shout
01:01
out to Carol Marques, Greg
01:03
Collins, Tom Rafferty, Eric
01:03
nordoff, Darwish, Abdul Rahman
01:09
and Richie brand for shouting
01:09
out how to start a podcast and
01:13
sharing it with your audience.
01:13
If you want to go and check out
01:16
their podcast and some love
01:16
getting some support, we'll
01:19
leave links in the description
01:19
of this episode. Alban, were you
01:24
able to get that Buzzsprout Club
01:24
formed?
01:28  Alban
Yeah, you actually knew
01:28
that the answer to this already.
01:31
But yeah, we finally got to
01:31
Buzzsprout club on clubhouse. So
01:36
we actually have done three
01:36
weeks of these, like q&a
01:38
sessions, and the primary reason
01:38
was to get a club, everything,
01:44
apparently, all the club
01:44
creation was manual. So they're
01:47
like, yeah, we're not gonna
01:47
approve you unless you've done
01:49
like three of them with the same
01:49
name. So we did three of them
01:52
with the same name, the day
01:52
where we were eligible to apply
01:58
for a club. I mean, I don't have
01:58
any reason to be mad about this.
02:01
But the day that that happened,
02:01
they allowed you to do it for
02:06
automatically. And so like, I
02:06
wrote this little update for the
02:10
whole company with like, got the
02:10
club after a lot of hard work.
02:14
And the candidate today was
02:14
like, so you know, like,
02:16
everyone could do that now. And
02:16
I'm like, Yes, but I still
02:19
wanted, like the credit for
02:19
setting all these things up and
02:23
doing them. But yeah, we have a
02:23
club, but maybe if we just
02:26
waited, we could had a club.
02:26
Anyway, it's
02:28  Kevin
just one of those things.
02:28
You know, like, if you would
02:30
have waited, it, they wouldn't
02:30
have rolled it out on that day,
02:33
you would have been waiting six
02:33
weeks, eight weeks, 10 weeks.
02:35
But since you did the work, of
02:35
course, it rolls out on that
02:39
day. Right? It's like when you
02:39
bring the umbrella it never
02:41
rains, but the day you leave it
02:41
at home, it pours.
02:45  Alban
I actually don't own an
02:45
umbrella in Florida. So that
02:48
metaphor is lost me.
02:50  Travis
I don't know why I have
02:50
a rain jacket.
02:52  Alban
Okay, here's my theory of
02:52
umbrellas. This is a definitely
02:54
a tangent. But
02:55  Kevin
do you have all these
02:55
theories on things?
02:57  Alban
This is how my brain
02:57
works. Alright, here's a theory.
03:00
I see cats, like freak out when
03:00
they're around any water. And I
03:03
remember once being like, man,
03:03
obviously doesn't hurt them. I
03:06
wonder why they're so against
03:06
it. And then like the same day,
03:09
I saw people tearing down a
03:09
parking lot to like, knock it in
03:13
the rain. And I'm like, what
03:13
this is kind of just where the
03:17
cats were not the dogs were
03:17
like, so freaked out that we got
03:21
a little bit wet. It's not a big
03:21
deal. And I was like, I should
03:24
just be a little more
03:24
comfortable, like getting rained
03:26
on it's not a big deal. Since
03:26
then have an own an umbrella.
03:31
That's your theory.
03:31  Kevin
So you just show up to
03:31
events randomly, just completely
03:34
drenched.
03:35  Alban
It's happened like two
03:35
times. And I'm not carrying this
03:40
big umbrella. And then you've
03:40
got this thing you have to be
03:42
responsible for people complain
03:42
like I lost my umbrella. It's
03:45
like, I don't care. Just don't
03:45
have an umbrella. Problem
03:48
solved.
03:48  Travis
So that's a roundabout
03:48
way of saying what what were we
03:52
talking about clubhouse.
03:53  Alban
Okay, so the whole
03:53
clubhouse thing, we started it,
03:56
we got the three we got the club
03:56
is called Buzzsprout. And you
04:01
can go and follow and become a
04:01
member of the club. And I will
04:05
probably do more events. I think
04:05
we'll do the Podcasting Q&A one.
04:09
But then maybe we can now that
04:09
we are not locked in on that
04:11
exact name anymore. Because that
04:11
was a requirement of the old
04:15
clubhouse way, we can now open
04:15
it up. So we could have like a
04:19
podcast marketing where you
04:19
invite a few people to talk
04:22
about marketing and talk to a
04:22
few people about monetization.
04:26
We could have one just like
04:26
podcasting for basic, basic
04:30
beginners. You know, truly like
04:30
what is podcasting? Why do you
04:34
know how does it work stuff?
04:35  Kevin
Yeah. And I noticed that
04:35
there, they changed their terms
04:38
of service. So now we can record
04:38
these things, right, as long as
04:42
we're clear that we're recording
04:42
and tell everyone who you invite
04:44
to speak that they're being
04:44
recorded. You can record them so
04:48
maybe as we do these events, we
04:48
might need to start recording
04:51
them and throw them out on
04:51
another podcast feed because I
04:54
mean clubhouse the big drawback
04:54
right? Besides audio quality
04:57
being kind of flaky is that if
04:57
you're not available at the time
05:00
of the event, you missed the
05:00
event. And so maybe that's
05:03
something we can start looking
05:03
into as well.
05:05  Alban
Yeah, we there's been a
05:05
lot of podcasts and blog posts
05:09
written about this, you know,
05:09
column house and podcasting, how
05:12
they work together, I still feel
05:12
like they're very different
05:15
things. And I imagine that if I
05:15
was not in the room, when
05:20
somebody most of the clubhouse
05:20
sessions I've been a part of or
05:22
happening, I wouldn't be super
05:22
interested to listen to them on
05:25
a podcast, like the level of
05:25
quality that I'm looking for out
05:28
of a podcast episode is so much
05:28
higher that I feel like if I'm
05:32
not there, in the moment, where
05:32
maybe I'm even speaking, kind of
05:36
giving feedback or raising my
05:36
hand or other people are
05:39
following up, I don't think I
05:39
would be as invested in it.
05:42  Travis
That makes sense. So
05:42
regardless, here, regardless, if
05:45
you have an iPhone, and you're
05:45
on clubhouse, which I was trying
05:48
to figure out, if I was using
05:48
that word correctly, if you're
05:51
having I made
05:51  Alban
sure that you were not by
05:51
saying
05:55  Travis
you're on clubhouse,
05:55
join the Buzzsprout Club, the
05:57
exclusive Buzzsprout club where
05:57
we only let in people that asked
06:01
to join salvin, what has been
06:01
your experience running several
06:05
clubhouse rooms running several
06:05
events? What are the pros? What
06:09
are the cons? And you know, how
06:09
do you see us using it in the
06:13
future to connect with and help
06:13
our podcasters.
06:16  Alban
So from a listener
06:16
participant perspective, like
06:20
somebody who's actually just
06:20
coming into a room,
06:24
recommendation is drop into
06:24
rooms, and find one that
06:28
actually resonates with you. If
06:28
you're there for five minutes.
06:32
And it's not really that great,
06:32
you can just leave and go join
06:34
another room until you find
06:34
something that's valuable to
06:37
you. There's so many
06:37
conversations happening in there
06:40
all the time. It's kind of like
06:40
a total FOMO machine where you
06:44
just feel like there's always
06:44
something happening. So maybe
06:48
like carve out a little bit of
06:48
time in the day where you might
06:50
go check if there's something
06:50
good or actually come in when
06:54
there's something scheduled Do
06:54
you want to hear, I really like
06:58
being in rooms where you have a
06:58
chance to speak, I've been in
07:01
some of these really large rooms
07:01
where it may be celebrities
07:06
talking. But then it's kind of
07:06
like a not as high of quality
07:12
audio podcast that you can't
07:12
fast forward. And so it's kind
07:17
of doing the same job as a
07:17
podcast, which I don't find as
07:20
valuable. So like try to I like
07:20
the smaller rooms quite a bit
07:24
more. So you can raise your hand
07:24
actually participate, ask
07:27
questions. And there's just a
07:27
lot more happening. As far as
07:31
our room in particular, I mean,
07:31
we're just we're trying to be
07:34
kind of form formal in it that
07:34
we bring people up on stage, we
07:39
go right down the order people
07:39
raise your hands, they've got a
07:43
question, they ask their
07:43
question, we answer it mostly,
07:47
there's two or three of us who
07:47
are kind of subject matter
07:50
experts answering it, we thank
07:50
them, we move on to the next
07:53
person. I think the formality is
07:53
kind of important because
07:58
nobody's you know, frustrated or
07:58
hurt when they understand the
08:01
rules. But if you don't have
08:01
rules, then it kind of just any
08:05
random person can kind of take
08:05
over the stage for a long period
08:08
of time. So you have to be kind
08:08
of on the outset, say, here's
08:11
how we're going to do the room.
08:11
Maybe it's a q&a session, or
08:14
maybe it's two people talking
08:14
the entire time, whatever it is,
08:17
I think kind of setting the room
08:17
and then resetting it every 15
08:21
minutes just to tell everybody,
08:21
here's what we're doing. Here's
08:24
how the rooms going. And if you
08:24
want to participate here are the
08:26
ways I think that's pretty
08:26
important. But like Kevin said
08:30
earlier, you can get your own
08:30
club now. So not only did I get
08:33
the club for Buzzsprout actually
08:33
signed us up for Buzzcast have
08:38
its own room, its own club. I
08:38
don't know if we'll ever use
08:42
that. But I did think if you
08:42
have a podcast out there, and
08:48
you may want to have post
08:48
episode discussions, discussions
08:53
with you, I think that you know,
08:53
it's probably a good idea. If
08:57
you have an invite to clubhouse,
08:57
go in, and just create a club
09:00
for your own podcast. And then
09:00
if people start joining it, you
09:05
could have little discussions, I
09:05
think that'd be a really cool
09:08
thing to do. And it might be a
09:08
way to monetize your podcast
09:12
once clubhouse actually launches
09:12
all these monetization features
09:16
might be a nice way to give your
09:16
listeners Hey, for $2 a session,
09:22
you can join, we chat about the
09:22
episode, I tell you a little bit
09:25
of the backstory, things that
09:25
hit the cutting room floor. And
09:29
you get a little bit more I
09:29
could totally see that being a
09:32
viable way, especially for a
09:32
larger podcast to monetize.
09:35  Travis
I mean, it could
09:35
definitely pay for our Honest
09:37
Tea addiction. For sure. All the
09:37
half and half and greens here we
09:40
can drink nothing. Those are
09:40
great insights. Alvin, thank you
09:43
for thank you for sharing those.
09:43
So if you guys are on clubhouse,
09:46
make sure you join the
09:46
Buzzsprout Club. And we'd love
09:48
to see you in our next q&a
09:48
session or our next chat that we
09:51
have over there.
09:54  Kevin
All right, so should we
09:54
dig into some new stuff in
09:58
Buzzsprout always,
09:59  Travis
always you Got some
09:59
goodies for us already? Well, I
10:04
love how you know it's good.
10:04
It's good as a host to feign
10:08
ignorance even though we all
10:08
spent an hour working through
10:11
the outline together.
10:12  Alban
I can't do it. I didn't
10:12
even ask you. Did
10:14  Kevin
you know about anything
10:14
new in Buzzsprout? I said, Do
10:16
you want to talk about some of
10:16
the new stuff and Buzzsprout and
10:19
Alban tried cracking up like
10:19
this is an honor outlines not
10:22
the next thing we have to go to.
10:23  Alban
Not only is the outline,
10:23
but we talked through which of
10:26
the sub things are on the
10:26
outline to make sure we are all
10:29
on the same page. Because like
10:29
you're talking about, I don't
10:32
know, what else am I gonna say?
10:32
Yeah, let's definitely talk
10:33
about it. We
10:34  Travis
Yeah, we were trying to
10:34
be good proxies. For our
10:37
listeners, Alban, they haven't
10:37
seen the outline. So let's,
10:40
let's drop some goodies No,
10:40
enough, enough, enough, enough.
10:43  Kevin
There's good stuff, and
10:43
we're going to talk about it.
10:45
First, let's talk about stats,
10:45
stats, stats, stats, everyone
10:49
loves stats, and now there's
10:49
something new to click on in
10:51
your stats section. So that big
10:51
graph, when you click on stats,
10:55
the big graph that shows up and
10:55
I think it defaults to the last
10:57
30 days, and you can switch
10:57
between 730 90 and all time.
11:01
Now, when you put your mouse
11:01
over that graph, move back and
11:03
forth, you can click to kind of
11:03
dig into the detail of what the
11:07
numbers are behind the little
11:07
bumps on the graph. And so we're
11:12
calling these things I don't
11:12
know, like a detailed view, like
11:14
what happened, and it will it
11:14
changes based on the level of
11:18
detail on that graph that you're
11:18
looking at. So if you're like on
11:20
seven, the seven day view, and
11:20
you click, then you're just
11:23
looking at a day. And I think
11:23
that's the same thing for the 30
11:25
day view. But as soon as you
11:25
switch to like a 90 day view,
11:28
now you're looking at weeks at a
11:28
time. So if I click into a bump
11:32
on the from the 90 day view, I
11:32
see a date range, which is
11:36
typically a week and you can see
11:36
all the downloads that happened
11:38
for that week, every episode
11:38
that was downloaded during that
11:40
week, and how many times they
11:40
were downloaded. And you get the
11:43
same thing, if you went to all
11:43
time, I think depends on how old
11:47
your podcast is, like how big
11:47
the date range will be. But it's
11:50
typically going to be around a
11:50
month at a time. So like for
11:53
Buzzcast, I'm now looking at
11:53
December 2020, I can see all the
11:57
episodes that were downloaded in
11:57
December 2020. And how many
11:59
times they were downloaded each.
11:59
So I think it's great. It's
12:02
fantastic new view of your stats
12:02
and a quick way to drill into
12:06
detail that was available before
12:06
but you had to click into a lot
12:09
of screens and probably write
12:09
numbers down. Now you can get
12:12
all that in one view just by
12:12
clicking on that chart.
12:15  Travis
Well. And I think the
12:15
big value add for, you know,
12:18
podcasters are trying to get a
12:18
sense of how their episodes are
12:21
performing in general, is you
12:21
can very easily see how well
12:25
your back catalogue is
12:25
performing. Right? Because when
12:28
you're releasing new episodes,
12:28
and you're saying, Okay, this
12:31
episode got 300 downloads the
12:31
day it came out, but that same
12:34
day, in total, I got like 450
12:34
downloads. So where did that 150
12:40
come from? What was the episode
12:40
splits? Was it one episode that
12:43
did really well was it all my
12:43
episodes got like three or four
12:46
plays. And so by digging into
12:46
this more detailed view, you can
12:49
see a better breakdown of how
12:49
your back catalogue is
12:53
performing. And be able to like
12:53
piece those things apart.
12:56  Alban
We often talk about
12:56
creating evergreen content. And
12:58
the whole reason you do that is
12:58
your kind of buying all these
13:02
lottery tickets for something
13:02
becomes very important later on.
13:06
And people get interested in an
13:06
old topic, or maybe some of
13:11
these two years old gets shared
13:11
on a forum and a lot of people
13:13
listen. Well, the old way of
13:13
deciphering what was actually
13:19
making your podcast grow. If you
13:19
saw that bump on a particular
13:23
day would have been clicking
13:23
through a bunch of different
13:26
episodes hoping to find the one
13:26
that was growing. Now you can
13:30
just literally see the chart has
13:30
gone up, you click on the chart,
13:33
and it says here are the
13:33
episodes that made up that bump.
13:37
And you can quickly decipher
13:37
which episodes are working. And
13:43
seeing it just from a marketing
13:43
perspective. Well, that's going
13:46
to be great when I do some work,
13:46
and try to share a specific
13:52
episode and I see a bump. In the
13:52
past I might have gone Oh, I
13:56
think I know where that bump
13:56
came from. But now I know for
13:59
sure I click it and I go Yep, it
13:59
is the five episodes that I went
14:03
through. And I ran this Facebook
14:03
ads for the five episodes that I
14:07
shared on a forum or in my
14:07
group, I see it got a lot more
14:11
downloads, I can continue doing
14:11
that in confidence I actually
14:15
create, we can leave this in the
14:15
show notes, did a loom video
14:19
showing the daily downloads
14:19
feature and how I would use it.
14:23
And you can see even when I'm
14:23
doing it, I'm finding like oh,
14:26
that's when I shared that in an
14:26
email. So need to make sure I
14:28
keep doing it because it did
14:28
result in an extra few 100
14:32
downloads.
14:32  Kevin
And this becomes really
14:32
important if you start using pre
14:36
roll post roll dynamic content,
14:36
because you have the ability
14:40
with that tool to add it to all
14:40
the episodes as well. So if you
14:43
added a pre roll to an episode,
14:43
and then applied it to your
14:46
entire back catalogue, you might
14:46
want to integrate it for a week.
14:48
You might want to know in that
14:48
week, how many times was that
14:51
downloaded. And so now you can
14:51
do that and you can go to like a
14:54
90 day view you can click into
14:54
the week where you applied the
14:56
dynamic content. You can see all
14:56
the episodes that were
14:58
downloaded during that Week,
14:58
knowing that they all have that
15:02
dynamic content pre roll. And so
15:02
you can get a good count for how
15:05
many people actually heard that
15:05
pre roll. So useful stuff. And
15:08
it's kind of building upon what
15:08
we're doing and dynamic content.
15:11
So hopefully I'll find that
15:11
helpful. We've had a lot of fun
15:14
building that and rolling that
15:14
out. The next thing that we
15:17
should talk about is episode
15:17
number helpers. This is what we
15:22
call the project. A lot of you
15:22
use seasons and episode numbers
15:26
in your podcasts. And one thing
15:26
that can be difficult is
15:29
remembering what are we on?
15:29
We're on like Buzzcast 47. And I
15:32
only know that because of the
15:32
top of our outline right now, if
15:35
I was going to publish this
15:35
episode on Friday, I probably
15:37
wouldn't remember that we're on
15:37
episode 47, I'd have to click
15:40
into the previous episode, look
15:40
at the episode number, then come
15:43
back to the new one, and then
15:43
type in 47. So instead of all
15:47
that back and forth, this is a
15:47
tiny little update that just
15:50
helps people out. So now, where
15:50
you put in season at episode
15:53
number, instead of the example
15:53
text underneath just saying
15:56
example 123. Now it will say
15:56
your previous episode was number
16:00
46. And so you know, the new one
16:00
is 47. So that was real little,
16:06
but hopefully very helpful for
16:06
people that do Season Episode
16:08
numbers, no more back and forth.
16:08
Buzzsprout will now tell you,
16:12
where you left off.
16:13  Alban
And I know the use case
16:13
for a lot of people was they get
16:15
to that part go, what was my
16:15
last episode number, then they
16:20
would like click save, then they
16:20
would go back check the last
16:23
episode that they would want to
16:23
come back to the episode they
16:25
just edited. They'd make that
16:25
update. And you know, you're
16:30
saving a couple steps along the
16:30
way. Now you can just look down
16:33
and go Okay, cool. 47 nice, put
16:33
it in, you get excited you're
16:37
hitting, we're about to hit 50
16:37
episodes actually hearing that
16:40
kind of gets me a little bit
16:40
excited.
16:41  Kevin
It's been a long time,
16:41
big milestone, if you're like us
16:44
the way that we think you'd
16:44
probably be like, Why haven't
16:47
you done that all along? And
16:47
there's, there's a lot of
16:49
reasons why we haven't. And we
16:49
have thought about it and tried
16:53
to come up with different ways
16:53
to do it before we finally one
16:56
of our programmers, Brian hunt
16:56
came up with this genius idea of
16:59
like, let's just make it a
16:59
suggestion. The idea of
17:01
actually, in which is really,
17:01
like all the best ideas sound
17:04
simple once they come out,
17:04
right. But all the approaches
17:07
before were like if we pre
17:07
populate it for them, and then
17:10
we get it wrong, or they're
17:10
uploading, you know, episodes in
17:13
batches and it gets out of
17:13
order, then it's just more of a
17:16
mess to unwind. And so that's
17:16
why it took us so long to kind
17:19
of figure out the right answer.
17:19
And then Brian had this
17:21
epiphany. And he was like, we
17:21
should just make it a better
17:24
example. And we're all like, Oh,
17:24
my gosh, how come? We didn't
17:27
think of that two years ago?
17:29  Alban
Well, I know the first
17:29
time we thought about it was
17:31
just take what was the last one
17:31
was and add one, right? But the
17:34
downside of that is, you know,
17:34
you're on season one, episode
17:37
eight, and you know, you're
17:37
actually gonna start season two,
17:40
but it's kind of pre populated
17:40
season one, episode nine, which
17:44
you never intended to make, but
17:44
you just click save, because
17:47
it's already filled out. You
17:47
kind of assume that it's right.
17:49
Yeah. Or like you said, your
17:49
batch uploading all of season
17:53
two. And it now every time
17:53
whichever one you happen to
17:57
click on first or uploads first
17:57
says, I'm season two, Episode
18:01
One. You're like, Oh, no, you're
18:01
not.
18:03  Kevin
Yeah, we've all
18:03
experienced that before, right?
18:05
Like software that tries to be
18:05
helpful. It's auto. It's not
18:07
helpful. It's correct. It's,
18:07
it's a little Clippy paperclip
18:11
popping up saying Do you want to
18:11
do this? No, I don't want to do
18:14
that. But anyway, we feel like
18:14
we finally cracked it. So at tip
18:17
to Brian, and hopefully that's
18:17
helpful to y'all. The next thing
18:21
I want to talk about, I'm gonna
18:21
roll through them quick, because
18:23
because we've got a bunch of new
18:23
stuff. Now you can do chapter
18:26
images. So Buzzsprout has for a
18:26
long time, we've had a chapter
18:29
marker tool. And when you upload
18:29
an episode, you can go in and
18:33
create chapters, all the
18:33
Buzzcast episodes have chapters.
18:35
So if you're listening to this
18:35
right now, hopefully your app
18:37
supports that you could scroll
18:37
down and jump to a different
18:39
section. Like if you're tired of
18:39
me talking about new features,
18:42
you could skip over this right
18:42
now. Well, now we can also put
18:44
images in there. And maybe
18:44
Travis will have time to do that
18:48
for today's episode. And then if
18:48
your app supports images, then
18:52
those images display once you
18:52
get to that point in the audio.
18:56
So if we wanted like our outline
18:56
today says number one, we're
18:59
going to start with quick
18:59
hitters. So Travis can come up
19:00
with a graphic for that. And
19:00
then the next section is
19:03
Buzzsprout new features, he
19:03
could throw different images up
19:06
for that. And I don't want to
19:06
get too far ahead. But we've got
19:09
two other sections coming later
19:09
in the podcast. And he could put
19:12
specific images for that. Now,
19:12
this is new. It's built on the
19:16
podcast namespace spec, and so
19:16
not a ton of apps support it
19:19
yet. Like here's an example,
19:19
overcast is a podcast app for
19:23
iOS that supports chapter
19:23
images. But there's two
19:26
different ways to do chapter
19:26
images. One of them involves
19:28
embedding the images within the
19:28
audio file itself, and the other
19:30
is using a different way. It's
19:30
actually called JSON to blink to
19:34
images at certain time points.
19:34
And that's the new spec. That's
19:38
the podcast namespace, podcast
19:38
namespace spec that we built off
19:42
of, for this chapter
19:42
implementation. So just because
19:46
you do this, and then you have
19:46
an app that does support chapter
19:49
images, and might not support
19:49
the spec that we built to, which
19:51
is the newer one. So hopefully
19:51
over the next you know, few
19:55
months, year, whatever all these
19:55
apps will be catching up and
19:58
you'll see more and more images
19:58
working With podcasts, but there
20:01
might be some lag time. Again,
20:01
we want to kind of be ahead of
20:04
the curve and have you guys have
20:04
the tools available to you that
20:07
are cutting edge. We don't want
20:07
to build on old text that we
20:10
built on the new tech. But just
20:10
understand that not all the apps
20:13
are caught up on that stuff yet,
20:14  Travis
it will also work if you
20:14
embed the Buzzsprout player on
20:18
your website, where if you use
20:18
the Buzzsprout website, the
20:20
podcast website you get with
20:20
your show, those chapter images
20:23
will also populate in the
20:23
embedded player as well.
20:26  Kevin
All right, and now the
20:26
last one is a big one. And I
20:29
have to put a disclaimer on this
20:29
one, because we're recording,
20:33
it's actually Tuesday, normally
20:33
record on Wednesday, and the
20:36
show drops on Friday. And this
20:36
feature isn't actually out yet,
20:40
but it is scheduled to be out we
20:40
are QA testing everything right
20:44
now. And so it's possible that
20:44
you're listening to this and you
20:47
want to go test tested, try it
20:47
out right now. And it's not
20:50
available because we found a bug
20:50
that we weren't expecting. But
20:54
we feel pretty good, good enough
20:54
that we're going to talk about
20:56
it anyway. And if we do find a
20:56
bug, it'll be early next week.
21:00
But the feature is dynamic
21:00
descriptions is what we're
21:03
calling it. So dynamic
21:03
descriptions, gives you the
21:06
ability to associate text with
21:06
your dynamic content. So when we
21:10
rolled out dynamic content,
21:10
about around a month ago, you
21:13
could upload an audio file, and
21:13
then you could put that just on
21:16
your new episodes, you could
21:16
apply it to your old episodes,
21:18
and it was pre roll and post
21:18
roll. Now what we're allowing
21:20
you to do is also associate
21:20
content with that audio file. So
21:25
for example, if you're using
21:25
your pre roll to announce an
21:29
event that you're going to be
21:29
attending, I'm going to be
21:31
podcast movement in Nashville at
21:31
the end of July. I hope to see
21:35
you all there. If you're
21:35
interested, follow the link in
21:37
my show notes, right. But you
21:37
couldn't put a link in your show
21:40
notes without editing, you know,
21:40
your 46 previous episodes to
21:44
drop that link. And even though
21:44
the audio content was there. And
21:47
so now what we've rolled out is
21:47
a new tool called dynamic
21:50
description. So every time we
21:50
upload an audio file, through
21:52
the dynamic content tool, a
21:52
button will appear that says Do
21:55
you want to add some dynamic
21:55
content, a text box will pop up,
21:58
same type of text box that you
21:58
have, when you're editing your
22:00
show notes, you can type in
22:00
whatever you want, you can add
22:02
links. If you have affiliates or
22:02
sponsorships set up, there's a
22:07
drop down where you can drop in
22:07
that content automatically, you
22:09
hit save, and that content is
22:09
now automatically added to all
22:12
of the episodes that have
22:12
dynamic content. And there's
22:15
this other great feature that
22:15
comes along with this, which is
22:20
what we're calling an episode
22:20
selector. So this is this is
22:24
really big too. And that is when
22:24
we've rolled out dynamic
22:27
content, we gave you a button to
22:27
dynamically add all that content
22:31
to all your previous episodes.
22:31
Now we have an episode selector.
22:34
So now when you hit apply to
22:34
previous episodes, you'll be
22:37
brought to a screen that shows
22:37
you all your previous episodes.
22:40
And you can check the box next
22:40
to the ones that you want to
22:43
apply to. So you don't have to
22:43
do your entire back catalogue
22:45
anymore. If you have a trailer,
22:45
if you have bonus episodes, if
22:49
for one reason or another, you
22:49
just don't want it on this one
22:51
episode, you can uncheck it and
22:51
then hit apply to the rest. Then
22:54
there's a nice little counter
22:54
that tells you how many it's
22:56
getting applied to and
22:56
everything else. But huge, huge
23:00
update to dynamic content coming
23:00
hopefully Friday, by the time
23:04
you're listening to this. But
23:04
again, worst case early next
23:07
week.
23:08  Travis
Yeah, most certainly
23:08
before the next Buzzcast
23:10
episode,
23:11  Kevin
right, which is why I
23:11
want to talk about it. I've been
23:13
really excited to talk about it.
23:14  Alban
I mean, this is a pretty
23:14
big deal. Because now not only
23:18
can you upload something and say
23:18
I'm going to be at this
23:21
conference. And I'm really
23:21
excited that and I'd love for
23:23
you to come and if you follow my
23:23
link, you get a discount. Not
23:28
only can you add that to
23:28
episodes, you can actually
23:31
select which episodes that's
23:31
added to. And so you could pick
23:35
for some reason you only wanted
23:35
to put it in 30 of your 40
23:38
episodes, you could just go
23:38
through and click those
23:40
episodes. And additionally, you
23:40
could actually type in some text
23:45
and say, here's the link for you
23:45
to follow so that you get the
23:50
discounted rate. And you do that
23:50
one time. And it actually gets
23:55
appended to your descriptions
23:55
for every episode. Because we
24:02
quickly realized, like we
24:02
thought of this feature. And yet
24:05
we started to hearing from
24:05
people that were like, Oh, it's
24:07
great. But I still have to go
24:07
and edit every one of my
24:10
descriptions to add the Lincoln
24:10
and then I have to go back in to
24:14
remove it. Now you don't have to
24:14
do that you do it one time you
24:18
add it. Once the deal is over
24:18
for that conference, you're
24:24
going to you just go and you
24:24
remove it and it removes not
24:27
only the audio portion, but it
24:27
also removes the description
24:32
portion. It works really, really
24:32
smoothly since I've used it
24:37
Kevin so you guys did a great
24:37
job building it. And I'm excited
24:41
to see everyone uses it because
24:41
it's one of those features that
24:44
once it's built, it feels easy
24:44
because you did all the work to
24:48
figure out how to make it easy.
24:48
But I think we saw a bit of the
24:52
figuring it out working through
24:52
the issues for the last few
24:55
weeks and I know you guys put a
24:55
ton of time and thought into how
24:58
to build this the right way.
25:00  Kevin
Yeah, and then part of
25:00
that process, we ended up
25:02
changing the workflow of how
25:02
dynamic content works. It's
25:06
subtle, but the UI has changed a
25:06
little bit to better communicate
25:09
how things work now. And so if
25:09
you have been using dynamic
25:13
content, previously, when this
25:13
update rolls out, you'll see
25:16
that the UI looks a little bit
25:16
different. And we hope that does
25:19
a good job of communicating the
25:19
functionality is a little bit
25:21
different. The main difference
25:21
is this. Now, you'll have the
25:24
ability to when you have, when
25:24
you hit the episode selector,
25:27
you're going to select your
25:27
20 3040 episodes that you want
25:30
this dynamic content applied to,
25:30
and then any changes that you
25:33
make to the dynamic content
25:33
settings, whether they be an
25:35
update to a description, or you
25:35
change out an audio file, or you
25:39
add a post role where you didn't
25:39
have one before, that is gonna
25:42
then immediately impact and
25:42
start updating on episodes that
25:46
you've selected. And so before
25:46
you used to make all your
25:49
changes, then you'd hit a button
25:49
that said, apply to all these
25:51
episodes. Now, it's more like
25:51
you tell us the episodes that
25:54
you want to kind of be dynamic
25:54
content eligible. And then once
25:58
we know that, as you're making
25:58
changes, those files are
26:01
starting to get updated in the
26:01
background automatically.
26:04  Travis
So you don't have to
26:04
deselect the trailer every time
26:06
you change something in your
26:06
dynamic content. Exactly,
26:09  Kevin
exactly. And it's a
26:09
workflow that makes more senses,
26:13
we're adding more functionality
26:13
into dynamic content. But it is
26:16
a bit of a change from where we
26:16
started. And so it's not good or
26:20
bad. It's just an evolution of
26:20
the process. And it's, it's more
26:24
powerful, but it's something to
26:24
be aware of, if you have been
26:26
using dynamic content, when you
26:26
see the new UI that appears on,
26:30
you know, Friday, Monday,
26:30
Tuesday, just be aware that
26:32
things are gonna start
26:32
happening, maybe a little bit
26:35
different than they did in the
26:35
past. So read everything that's
26:37
on the screen, and make sure you
26:37
understand what's happening.
26:40  Travis
Well, that's a pretty
26:40
sweet feature, Kevin. So how
26:43
much does it cost to access this
26:43
incredible new dynamic
26:47
description feature? Because I
26:47
mean, it's on, it's out. I mean,
26:51
it sounds amazing. Like, surely
26:51
surely this is an upgrade,
26:54
right? Surely,
26:56  Alban
yeah. Just two easy
26:56
payments
26:58  Kevin
of $0. Yeah, it's it,
26:58
we're continuing to build on to
27:01
dynamic content, and include it
27:01
with with all your every paid
27:05
plan that we have on Buzzsprout.
27:05
And even the free plan, I think
27:08
gets it as well. So yeah, no
27:08
additional charge for the new
27:11
features. We're just trying to
27:11
give the best tools we can to
27:13
podcasters at the best price we
27:13
can. And for this one, it's
27:17
included with your plan.
27:21  Alban
James Cridland, the
27:21
founder and made writer for pod
27:26
news, tweeted out some stuff
27:26
there you had a story to let
27:29
everyone know about that was
27:29
going to change the way we
27:31
talked about podcasting forever.
27:31
And he is right. Apple podcast
27:36
is going to stop using the
27:36
phrase subscribe, and they're
27:41
gonna start talking about
27:41
following podcasts. So instead
27:45
of clicking the button to
27:45
subscribe, you would click a
27:47
button to follow the actual way
27:47
that this will work doesn't seem
27:52
to change at all. There's a
27:52
couple of reasons why they're
27:55
doing it. But they're following
27:55
didn't change. That was not
27:59
intentional. They're gonna
27:59
follow the way Spotify, audible
28:04
Stitcher, amazon music, you
28:04
know, all of them already talked
28:08
about following podcasts. And
28:08
now Apple podcasts will do it.
28:12
And once Apple podcasts does it,
28:12
the industry is gonna flip. And
28:15
I imagine almost everybody will
28:15
start using that phrase, when
28:19
they want you to subscribe to
28:19
their podcast, they will say
28:22
follow the podcast.
28:24  Kevin
I don't know. I mean,
28:24
YouTube still uses the word
28:26
subscribe. And so I when I read
28:26
that article this morning, I
28:30
found myself asking the
28:30
question, is this really just a
28:34
nomenclature change? Or is Apple
28:34
setting themselves up? You know,
28:38
there have been rumors about
28:38
them creating exclusive content
28:41
for Apple podcasts, possibly
28:41
charging for that or making it a
28:45
part of the bundle? If that is
28:45
direction that they're going to
28:48
they want to get the terminology
28:48
straightened out. I don't know.
28:52
I don't know my thoughts on it's
28:52
just that's that's a possible
28:55
deal, too, is that they're
28:55
changing the nomenclature so
28:57
that like for indie podcasts,
28:57
you just follow them, and
29:00
they're gonna have certain
29:00
podcasts that you still might be
29:02
able to subscribe to. But when
29:02
you subscribe, you're gonna pay
29:05
a price or you have to have, you
29:05
know, some apple bundle to be
29:08
able to subscribe to certain
29:08
shows that are paying Yeah.
29:11  Alban
Tom Webster from Edison
29:11
research shared some days had
29:15
47% of people who don't
29:15
currently listen to podcasts,
29:18
think that subscribing will cost
29:18
you money. And then when you
29:23
actually you think about that,
29:23
and then you look at the apps
29:26
that already use the phrase
29:26
follow Spotify. There's
29:29
obviously a subscription for for
29:29
music, Audible, a subscription
29:35
to get audiobooks, Stitcher,
29:35
there was stitcher premium. So
29:38
you could download you could pay
29:38
Apple Music, like all of those
29:42
have some sort of actual
29:42
subscription that costs you
29:46
money functionality. And so they
29:46
all made the switch to make sure
29:50
there was no confusion that you
29:50
are going to subscribe to
29:53
Buzzcast and to be charged 199 a
29:53
month going forward. And so it
29:57
made perfect sense there and I
29:57
do like kind of having this
30:01
consistency across the board.
30:01
But yeah, Kevin, your point is
30:05
well taken because with YouTube,
30:05
they still use subscribe. But
30:10
it's that's actually a very,
30:10
very different thing from what
30:14
podcasts do. When you subscribe
30:14
to a podcast, it gets downloaded
30:18
to your phone, and you see it,
30:18
it's definitely going to be
30:22
there kind of in your face.
30:22
YouTube, this is now Travis will
30:27
give us a better number, at
30:27
least five years ago, when they
30:30
changed it from you didn't even
30:30
get a notification. If one of
30:34
the channels you subscribe to
30:34
put out new content. It's kind
30:38
of like, yeah, I'm kind of
30:38
following them in the same way
30:41
that I follow somebody on
30:41
Twitter, I know I miss a lot of
30:45
their tweets. And the same way
30:45
now with YouTube channels. Like
30:48
you subscribe, we miss a lot of
30:48
their videos. And so it always
30:53
feels like it's something else.
30:53
It's happening. It's like, you
30:59
aren't being charged. So I
30:59
understand why building like
31:01
subscribe, but it's not truly
31:01
just a follow like I think of on
31:05
other social media apps. Because
31:05
those kind of imply casual
31:10
relationship where I'm not
31:10
checking in every episode or not
31:15
even being notified. I may miss
31:15
a handful and it's no big deal.
31:18  Travis
It's you know, the thing
31:18
that happens when different
31:21
companies are like, what term
31:21
are we gonna use internally. And
31:24
if there's a happens to be a
31:24
crossover with what other people
31:26
are doing, that's fine. So I
31:26
mean, I think the interesting
31:29
thing will be the impact that it
31:29
has on growing podcasting as a
31:33
whole. Because when I think of
31:33
subscription, I think about
31:36
Netflix, right? People talk
31:36
about having a Netflix
31:38
subscription in the conversation
31:38
where they're asking for
31:40
somebody else's password so they
31:40
can go watch Queen's gambit for
31:42
free, because there's an
31:42
understanding that when you
31:44
subscribe to Netflix cost money.
31:44
And so if simply changing the
31:48
word from, you know, hey,
31:48
subscribe to my podcast, to,
31:52
hey, if you open this podcast
31:52
app and click follow, you'll get
31:56
new episodes as they come out.
31:56
If that language shift is gonna
32:00
help podcasting growth, and I
32:00
think it's good, I think it's,
32:03
it's just going to take time to
32:03
get used to it. It's just going
32:05
to take time to adjust the way
32:05
that we talk about things.
32:09
rerecord our intros, re record
32:09
our calls to action at the end,
32:13  Alban
re record your dynamic
32:13
content is what you're saying,
32:16
right?
32:17  Travis
Maybe but I mean, like,
32:17
it used to be, you know, rate
32:20
and review the podcast and
32:20
iTunes, so we can be in the Top
32:22
200 chart. And then we found out
32:22
that a that ratings and reviews
32:26
don't actually impact the top
32:26
200. And then it turned into
32:30
Apple podcasts. And so it's just
32:30
going to be something that we're
32:33
just gonna get used to. It's
32:33
like, Okay, well, now we're just
32:35
gonna say follow the podcast and
32:35
your favorite app to get new
32:37
episodes as they come out. And
32:37
I'll just be a shift. It'll just
32:40
be a change we have to make but
32:40
the underlying structure of how
32:43
podcasts works, and how you
32:43
connect with podcast to make
32:46
sure you get new episodes, that
32:46
has not fundamentally changed.
32:50
But the way that we talk about
32:50
it, certainly well,
32:52  Alban
and I think that Kevin's
32:52
point is why this is happening
32:56
now. Like there's been this
32:56
shift, where everybody else is
33:00
starting to say, follow, not
33:00
subscribe. Why is Apple doing it
33:03
now? Well, there's been
33:03
rumblings for a few months, that
33:07
there will be some sort of paid
33:07
tier podcasts inside of Apple
33:11
podcasts, it will probably be
33:11
layered on top of all the free
33:15
content that everybody's putting
33:15
out there on their own. But now,
33:19
if maybe there's a celebrity
33:19
podcast, or maybe there's some
33:21
sort of monetization options
33:21
turned on, whatever the case may
33:25
be, there may actually be a
33:25
subscribe for 199. You know,
33:31
there may be some way that the
33:31
subscribe language now is
33:35
actually used for payments.
33:35
Well, I feel like I've had a lot
33:41
to say. So maybe Can I ask some
33:41
questions?
33:44  Travis
Sure, you can ask some
33:44
questions.
33:46  Alban
The episode from two
33:46
weeks ago was very different.
33:50
Just to recap for anybody
33:50
Buzzsprout was taken down by a
33:54
DDoS attack over the weekend and
33:54
into Monday. And instead of
34:00
doing the normal Buzzcast,
34:00
Travis basically did his best
34:05
impersonation of like a serial
34:05
episode. And interviewed like
34:09
eight people, and stitched
34:09
together this story of what it
34:14
was like for us in on our side
34:14
when somebody was basically
34:21
attacking Buzzsprout and your
34:21
podcasts. So I would like if
34:26
you're down for it, to ask you
34:26
some questions on what that
34:29
process looks like for you,
34:29
Travis, what is it? How was it
34:32
going from this kind of silly
34:32
roundtable podcast we do to
34:36
doing a much more in depth
34:36
editing process?
34:40  Travis
Well, so I think one
34:40
thing that is also important to
34:43
know is that the entire episode
34:43
came together in three days,
34:47
which is not very long. So not
34:49  Alban
only was it good, but you
34:49
want a little kudos for good and
34:52
fast.
34:55  Travis
Well, so so that three
34:55
days, I probably spent it was
34:58
probably 35 hours. 35 hours
34:58
total making that episode. So I
35:03
mean, it's it's, it can be
35:03
difficult. If you like hear a
35:06
podcast in a style that you're
35:06
not used to hearing or you
35:10
haven't produced yourself to
35:10
wonder like, How much time does
35:11
it take? That's how long it took
35:11
to make that 30 minute episode.
35:15
So when you hear a show, like an
35:15
NPR produce show, or wondery,
35:18
pretty short game was pretty
35:18
show, you know, like they got 12
35:20
people in the credits. That's a
35:20
little bit overkill? Well,
35:23
that's why because it just, it
35:23
takes a lot of time to do all
35:26
these different pieces. I mean,
35:26
I think the biggest shift from
35:29
an editing perspective, was what
35:29
we did at first Tuesday morning,
35:34
when I got back from vacation,
35:34
cuz ironically, I was not
35:37
involved in the actual crisis
35:37
mode. You know, the three of us
35:40
jumped on and said, okay, we
35:40
want to talk about this on
35:43
Buzzcast. What's the story?
35:43
Like, what is the story that
35:47
we're telling? And what are the
35:47
important plot beats along that
35:50
story? And so it was a lot of me
35:50
asking questions about what were
35:54
some of the notable things that
35:54
happened? When did they happen,
35:58
who was involved, and just
35:58
getting a sense of like, the
36:01
story arc, because whenever
36:01
you're doing a story that or
36:04
doing an episode that is more
36:04
story based, you have to make
36:08
sure that it follows the rules
36:08
of storytelling of what people
36:10
are expecting.
36:11  Alban
What are the rules of
36:11
storytelling?
36:13  Travis
Well, I mean, the
36:13
biggest one is that if you ever
36:15
introduce something as an open
36:15
what they call an open story
36:18
loop, essentially teasing
36:18
something that's going to be
36:21
resolved in the future, that you
36:21
tie it off, where if you don't,
36:25
it's very intentional, because
36:25
you're doing something in the
36:27
future, like 24 of the TV series
36:27
is a classic example of, we're
36:31
just going to leave you this
36:31
huge cliffhanger at the end, so
36:33
that you absolutely Tune in next
36:33
week. We didn't want to do that.
36:36
But in classical storytelling,
36:36
if you open a story loop and
36:40
say, Hey, this is something
36:40
interesting, you commit to
36:44
resolving it within that story.
36:44
So that's where you'd walk out
36:47
of a movie theater, and you feel
36:47
really great. Like, man, that
36:49
was a really great movie, we saw
36:49
this progression, we saw this
36:52
character mature or change or
36:52
transform. And at the ends, all
36:57
the loose ends had been tied,
36:57
and they're singing Kumbaya as
37:00
they walk off into the sunset.
37:01  Alban
So you wanted to be a
37:01
little more 24. Last, the TV
37:05
show last, which was kind of
37:05
like, famous for having all
37:09
these open loops. And it was so
37:09
exciting to think that it was
37:12
all gonna get tied together in
37:12
the end, and then they were kind
37:14
of like, Oh, yeah, we have no
37:14
idea how any of this makes
37:17
sense.
37:18  Travis
Yeah, I mean, going into
37:18
it, I knew kind of the basic
37:22
plot points of like, okay,
37:22
there's a period at the
37:25
beginning, where we figure out
37:25
Buzzsprout is down. What did
37:29
that look like? At first? Once I
37:29
learned that there was actually
37:32
two separate attacks? What was
37:32
it like in the meantime? And
37:37
then what did the end resolution
37:37
look like? But then throughout
37:40
that, I was also trying to
37:40
figure out what are the pieces
37:43
of this, that needs to be
37:43
expanded that need to be
37:45
expanded upon, right? So like, I
37:45
had seen the acronym DDoS. On
37:51
the internet before, but because
37:51
I'm not a programmer, I didn't
37:53
know what it stood for, or what
37:53
it meant. And so I also knew
37:57
that there's a really good
37:57
chance that most of the people
37:58
listening to this episode don't
37:58
know what this is, what it
38:02
actually is, what a distributed
38:02
denial services. So I knew that
38:05
in the episode, there need to be
38:05
a section talking about what it
38:09
is, and then also giving some
38:09
context of how common is it? You
38:13
know, what, what can you do to
38:13
prepare for it? Why are they
38:17
common, and just really
38:17
educating the listener, so they
38:22
have a better sense of what's
38:22
going on, as they're listening
38:25
to the story. So that's why we
38:25
reached out to jack over at
38:28
darknet diaries to contribute.
38:28
And that was phenomenal. He's
38:31
able to do that in such short
38:31
notice. And so that was the
38:34
different approach. So with
38:34
Buzzcast, we have a loose
38:36
outline of the topics we want to
38:36
cover. And that's about it. But
38:40
for this, there was a lot more
38:40
planning involved to know, when
38:44
I interviewed people, what
38:44
questions to ask to make sure I
38:47
would get the audio clips I
38:47
needed to put the story
38:50
together.
38:51  Alban
Okay, so step one, you
38:51
got the overall story arc, you
38:54
identified who you need to
38:54
interview what questions you are
38:58
going to include. But the way it
38:58
goes, it's not like separate
39:03
interviews in a row. You're
39:03
interweaving a lot of
39:06
interviews, how many interviews
39:06
did you do? And then how, how
39:10
did you kind of find the pieces
39:10
that you want to take us in each
39:13
section?
39:14  Travis
So I think all together,
39:14
there were nine people on that
39:19
episode. So myself and then
39:19
eight others, which is a lot. So
39:24
I have to give a lot of credit
39:24
to Eric Newsom. Because his book
39:27
make noise. He outlines how they
39:27
do this story based podcast
39:31
editing at NPR. And luckily, I
39:31
had actually read that book over
39:37
the weekend on vacation. Yeah,
39:37
like totally legit, was not
39:42
expecting to have to use any of
39:42
it. But I was just like, Oh,
39:45
this is a good book to read.
39:45
I'll reread it. So what I did
39:47
was I knew who was involved in
39:47
which pieces of the story. And
39:52
so I had a list of four or five
39:52
questions. I was asking each
39:54
person and I would ask like,
39:54
Okay, give me step by step. What
39:59
happened? But I would also ask,
39:59
Well, how did it feel when that
40:02
was happening? Or what? What
40:02
were you thinking? What was
40:04
going on in your head? Because
40:04
that's the part that's more
40:07
interesting, right? If you just
40:07
say, this happened, and this
40:10
happened, and this happened,
40:10
that's not very compelling. But
40:12
as soon as you introduce the
40:12
human element of this is what it
40:15
was like to experience this as
40:15
it was happening, that becomes a
40:18
lot more fascinating, right?
40:18
Because even if you're
40:20
describing a step by step DDoS,
40:20
a counter attack, if you're not
40:25
a programmer, like I don't care.
40:25
But if you explain what it's
40:29
like to have this existential
40:29
dread of we're in between
40:34
attacks, and it can come back at
40:34
any moment. And we're just like
40:37
waiting and like gearing up and
40:37
getting ready and trying to be
40:39
prepared, knowing what's at
40:39
stake with our podcasters. And
40:43
just doing everything that we
40:43
can to be ready, it's like, you
40:45
can feel that even if you've
40:45
never been in that position. So
40:48
that's how I was asking those
40:48
questions. And then as far as
40:51
what pieces to put where I
40:51
printed like 60 pages of
40:56
transcripts, whoa, so I ran
40:56
every single transcript through
40:59
otter, for every single
40:59
recording, it was something like
41:01
five hours of raw interviews.
41:01
And I just read through them,
41:05
because it's a lot easier to
41:05
read transcripts than to listen
41:07
to through to the audio. So I
41:07
would read through the
41:10
transcripts for all the
41:10
interviews that I did. And I
41:13
would highlight the sections I
41:13
thought were relevant. And I had
41:17
also divided the episode into
41:17
chapters. So if you actually
41:21
look at the episode, you'll see
41:21
there's chapter markers. And so
41:23
I was also identifying which
41:23
chapter of the episode that
41:27
particular clip was relevant
41:27
for. And then I just took
41:30
scissors and literally cut out
41:30
those segments and put them in
41:33
piles. So I had all of the clips
41:33
for chapter one in a pile all
41:38
the clips for chapter two in a
41:38
pile, like laid out on a table.
41:42
And then I just started
41:42
rearranging them. And I said,
41:44
Okay, well, what if I put this
41:44
clip before this clip? Or what
41:46
if I add this person story
41:46
instead of this person's story,
41:49
and I just started rearranging
41:49
them on paper. And I would read
41:52
through the transcripts in the
41:52
order that I'd laid them out and
41:56
say, Does this make sense? Does
41:56
this flow Am I repeating
41:59
something doesn't need to be
41:59
repeated? am I adding details
42:02
that are not actually adding to
42:02
the story, but are just
42:05
distracting from the story. And
42:05
so that's how I actually
42:08
assembled the rough cut, because
42:08
then I was able to pull in the
42:12
audio recordings. And no,
42:12
because the transcripts gives
42:16
you a timestamp, if you were in
42:16
an otter, the timestamps of
42:19
where the phrases sterlin stops
42:19
that I wanted for the final
42:22
episode. And so I was able to
42:22
easily pull clips out of the
42:26
audio files, and then put them
42:26
since I was recording it and
42:30
editing it and Hindenburg and
42:30
like a right sidebar of like
42:33
these bins, these little folders
42:33
you can drop it into. And then I
42:36
was able to just pull it into
42:36
the main episode feed. So that's
42:40
how I was able to manage five
42:40
hours of interviews and Nick
42:44
come together in a coherent way.
42:45  Alban
Alright, so now you've
42:45
got you ran the transcripts,
42:48
through otter, you've printed it
42:48
all out, you've kind of cut it
42:50
up, thrown them into different
42:50
piles, so that you can organize
42:54
them. And then I assume, then
42:54
you actually go through and you
42:59
put those clips into a coherent
42:59
story, like you put it into the
43:05
audio. And that was when I know
43:05
you, that was the first time I
43:08
saw it again. So I did my
43:08
interview with you. And then the
43:11
next day and a half later,
43:11
you're like, here's the rough
43:14
cut. And it was just basically
43:14
all those pieces of paper you
43:19
threw into piles put in an order
43:19
made back into audio, and then
43:24
he passed it to us. There's
43:24
still a lot of work after even
43:28
that I know one of my flaws with
43:28
seeing any type of creative work
43:32
is appreciating how much the
43:32
actual final Polish adds to
43:38
things. And in the beginning,
43:38
you don't want to have these
43:42
very clean transitions from one
43:42
clip to the next. You're not
43:46
fading anything, you're not
43:46
editing really for content.
43:50
You're just getting it into the
43:50
order. And so you passed that
43:53
rough draft to me, I think to
43:53
Kevin, and I remember hearing
43:58
going Oh, there's a lot of
43:58
little things. Little that I
44:01
realized you basically were
44:01
getting the whole like skeleton
44:04
into place before you added the
44:04
finishing touches.
44:09  Travis
Right? Well, because you
44:09
know, when we're editing it at
44:11
multiple levels, right, so at
44:11
that point, that rough, that cut
44:16
of the episode was something
44:16
like 50 minutes, 48 or 50
44:19
minutes. And so the idea was
44:19
here are all of the possible
44:23
recorded audio pieces that will
44:23
make it into the episode. And
44:27
we're gonna cut from there. So
44:27
because this was something we
44:30
were reviewing as a team, I
44:30
wanted you guys to be able to
44:33
listen to everything we could
44:33
possibly include that would fit
44:36
the story that we were telling
44:36
to then be able to say, okay,
44:39
we're not going to put this
44:39
piece in. We're going to cut
44:42
this detail out. This is
44:42
irrelevant. This isn't something
44:45
where we want to share for
44:45
security reasons, whatever the
44:48
case was. But then also you
44:48
don't want to spend a lot of
44:51
time polishing something that
44:51
ends up getting on the cutting
44:54
room floor anyways. Right? So I
44:54
think at that point, I might
44:57
have had music the intro, but
44:57
like no other music Stick bed
45:00
involved. I hadn't done anything
45:00
to the pacing, there were still
45:03
lots of filler words, lots of
45:03
lots of audio mishaps and like,
45:07
levels all over the place. But
45:07
yeah, the idea was, here is now
45:12
we're going to start refining
45:12
and polishing to turn into what
45:16
will be the final episode?
45:17  Alban
Well, the difference for
45:17
me what between you had that
45:20
kind of outline, and or the
45:20
rough draft, and my main thing
45:25
that I gave you was, the sounds
45:25
good, levels are kind of nutty.
45:30
And your pieces felt pretty
45:30
slow. Did you end up pre
45:37
recording those because like,
45:37
the whole thing was a bit
45:40
slower. And then the Polish
45:40
version you came back with the
45:43
next day was like, night and day
45:43
different, at least to me.
45:47  Travis
So there's a couple of
45:47
different ways you can approach
45:49
it. I'll talk about how I
45:49
approached it. Because we only
45:53
had three days to do it. I
45:53
didn't script anything. So
45:56
normally, with a story based
45:56
podcast, like what we're doing,
45:58
you would actually write scripts
45:58
for the narrator. And you say,
46:02
Okay, these are the final audio
46:02
clips that are going in. So then
46:05
what is the narrator need to
46:05
say, to connect these different
46:08
clips, to make it a cohesive
46:08
story. And so instead, what I
46:12
was doing, is, I would listen to
46:12
the clip that would precede what
46:16
I was gonna say, knowing where I
46:16
was going next, and where I fit
46:20
into the story. And I would just
46:20
start recording. And I would
46:23
actually, instead of recording
46:23
entire thoughts, I record like a
46:26
couple words at a time, or a
46:26
sentence or a thoughts. And so
46:31
when I gave that to you, it was
46:31
essentially like the cobbled
46:34
together. Words I was saying,
46:34
but I had not done any editing
46:39
to the pacing of it, of removing
46:39
silences, cutting out filler
46:43
words, cleaning it up, to
46:43
artificially make it sound like
46:47
it was a script, even though
46:47
it's just freeform and there was
46:50
lots of gaps in between.
46:52  Alban
It would be interesting
46:52
to play people like what how
46:55
different that sounds. I don't
46:55
know if we have space in this
46:57
episode, we probably can't. But
46:57
you were talking something like
47:03
this. On February 18,
47:03
Buzzsprout, was attacked with a
47:11
DDoS attack. Here's what it was
47:11
like for us a Buzzsprout. And
47:15
then like, Priscilla kind of
47:15
comes in very, like her audio is
47:20
pretty loud. And then the next
47:20
is like back to you very quiet.
47:24
And then back to me moderately
47:24
loud. And like very fast talking
47:29
and then back to you slow. And
47:29
all that like there's a lot of
47:34
improvement. Man, when you start
47:34
leveling things. I think that's
47:37
probably why we're all big fans
47:37
of magic mastering or just doing
47:40
leveling on your own. Because
47:40
that stuff makes a huge
47:43
difference. Alright, last
47:43
question. Audio bets. Talk to me
47:48
a little bit about audio bats,
47:48
because you did a lot of them.
47:51
And they very much changed the
47:51
tone of the episode.
47:56  Travis
Yeah, so you can do a
47:56
lot with an audio bet. And so an
47:59
audio but if you're not familiar
47:59
with it is essentially anything.
48:01
It's not like verbal words. So
48:01
that's music, at sound effects,
48:06
those kind of things. And so the
48:06
goal of an audio bet is to set
48:10
the mood, right. So if you're
48:10
telling a story, and you're
48:13
trying to communicate a point,
48:13
or you're trying to give it a
48:15
certain feel, you want the music
48:15
you use to reflect that it's
48:18
very similar to the advice we
48:18
give for people when they're
48:20
choosing Intro music, right.
48:20
It's like well choose Intro
48:23
music that fits the vibe of your
48:23
show. If you have a homeschool
48:26
podcast, don't choose a
48:26
Metallica cover band.
48:28  Alban
It's a very rad
48:28
homeschool.
48:30  Travis
You have very, very read
48:30
homeschool. And so we knew that
48:36
because this episode was talking
48:36
about a cyber attack, that we
48:39
wanted to have that kind of like
48:39
electronic feel to it. But also,
48:45
we were framing it as like this
48:45
mystery that we were unpacking
48:49
through the episode. At the very
48:49
beginning. Buzzsprout is down
48:52
and we don't know why. And then
48:52
over the episode, you're
48:55
discovering more about what's
48:55
really going on. And so you get
48:57
to the end when it resolves. And
48:57
so we wanted it to kind of come
49:01
through as like that kind of
49:01
Mystery Show. And so the idea
49:05
was, you know, how do we mix
49:05
like a cyberpunk meets Stranger
49:09
Things vibe. And so that was the
49:09
vibe when I was going through
49:14
sound stripe, which was the
49:14
royalty free music licensing
49:17
site that we used for that
49:17
episode and is listening for
49:20
like three or four hours to all
49:20
these different music tracks.
49:24
And I would listen through them
49:24
and I would ask, okay, what is
49:26
the mood of this communicates?
49:26
What is the tone this
49:28
communicates? What is the
49:28
pacing? Where would this fit in
49:31
the episode, and I would just
49:31
take notes like okay, this track
49:34
could be good for an intro this
49:34
track could be good for like,
49:37
you know, I feel good section,
49:37
this track would be good for
49:39
like building up to something,
49:39
you know, important. And I would
49:42
just go through that and I'm
49:42
sampling all these audio tracks.
49:45
And so then I would download 15
49:45
or 20 music tracks that I knew
49:49
were possible candidates to make
49:49
it into the episode. And then I
49:51
would just try them like I would
49:51
just load them up. play the clip
49:54
with the audio underneath and
49:54
ask myself how does this feel?
49:57
Does this communicate the
49:57
emotion that I'm trying to
49:59
convey? In this particular part
49:59
of the story, or not, and just
50:04
rinse and repeat. So there were
50:04
like four or five different
50:07
intros to that episode, before
50:07
we settled on the one that had
50:11
that very like eerie, dissonant
50:11
kind of feel to it. And even
50:15
like towards the end, where you
50:15
and Priscilla, were talking
50:18
about the response from our
50:18
community of podcasters, that
50:22
music was hard to figure out
50:22
because that was more like,
50:26
inspirational. Like we wanted it
50:26
to communicate the sense of
50:29
like, we're building to this
50:29
really high points, that even
50:32
though all this crazy stuff just
50:32
happened, like our podcasters
50:35
are still with us. It's like,
50:35
how do you communicate that in
50:37
music, and not have it come
50:37
across as like super cheesy, or
50:41
make it sound like stock music.
50:41
So that was the approach to
50:44
picking the songs. But as far as
50:44
where they went, we only used
50:48
music when the story shifted.
50:48
And so it was also using it as
50:53
an audio cue to let the listener
50:53
know, something different is
50:56
about to happen. And the reason
50:56
that's helpful is because it
50:59
creates for momentum in your
50:59
episode, that it helps your
51:02
listener understand that you're
51:02
making progress in the story.
51:04
The other reason it's helpful is
51:04
because then it doesn't become
51:06
overplayed. Like you'll hear
51:06
podcasts where the entire
51:09
episode has music under it, and
51:09
it completely loses the effect.
51:13
Right, it just becomes
51:13
background noise that you filter
51:15
out. So we wanted the music to
51:15
play a character in the episode
51:19
to help shape the emotion of the
51:19
story beats. And so we were very
51:23
selective in where we used it
51:23
and how we used it, and how we
51:26
did the fades and the crossfades
51:26
and the crescendos and
51:29
decrescendos to really fit the
51:29
pacing that we were putting into
51:33
the episode. Because we were
51:33
also I was also like chopping
51:36
words, chopping spaces, making
51:36
things faster, slower,
51:40
artificially in the Edit. So
51:40
that way, the episode itself has
51:44
a momentum, regardless of the
51:44
cadence that the person was
51:47
using when I was talking to
51:47
them. Because when you interview
51:50
multiple people, they all talk
51:50
at different speeds. So how do
51:53
you make it feel like it's a
51:53
part of a cohesive episode? It's
51:55
by going word by word phrase by
51:55
phrase and making it sound like
51:59
it's being spoken at the same
51:59
speed.
52:01  Alban
Well, thanks for giving
52:01
us kind of the insight to how
52:04
that worked out. Travis, do you
52:04
think you're going to be doing
52:06
more of these episodes in the
52:06
future? Or is this like a one
52:09
off for you that now back back
52:09
to YouTube back to roundtable
52:14
episodes?
52:15  Travis
Well, I mean, it seems
52:15
like people liked it. So that
52:18
episode has only been out for a
52:18
week and a half. And it's
52:22
already like our number five
52:22
episode of all time on Buzzcast.
52:25
So it'll it'll be number one
52:25
pretty quickly. I think some of
52:28
that is because what we talked
52:28
about, but then I think also, it
52:30
was it was a format. That was a
52:30
nice surprise. So I could
52:34
totally see us doing similar
52:34
things like that in the future.
52:38
And that'd be a lot of fun. A
52:38
lot of fun to work on if we have
52:40
an opportunity to make that
52:40
happen. Well, great. Well,
52:43  Alban
thanks to everybody who
52:43
listened to the episode,
52:46
everyone who participated and
52:46
obviously to Travis for doing
52:49
all the work and editing it all
52:49
together. If you haven't
52:52
listened to it, we will leave a
52:52
link in the show notes. Until
52:55
next time, keep podcasting