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How to Get Sponsors with Agnes Kozera [transcript]


In this bonus episode, Agnes Kozera (co-founder of FameBit and Podcorn) shares her top tips for how to pitch your podcast to brands and pricing your show.

Sign up for Podcorn and start securing sponsorships for your show today.

Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-03-19  39m
 
 
00:00  Unknown
They've done the
00:00
research on the brand. They're
00:02
super passionate. It's like an
00:02
already made ad. So all the
00:05
brand has to do is like, approve
00:05
and hire and done. So I think
00:09
like, the more, you could just
00:09
be creative and passionate, the
00:12
more chances you'll have to get hired.
00:21  Alban
Hey, everybody, today,
00:21
I'm here with Agnes Kozera. She
00:24
is the co founder of Podcorn.
00:24
Podcorn is really the leading
00:29
influencer marketing platform
00:29
for podcasters. It's a great way
00:33
for podcasters to connect with
00:33
different brands who want to run
00:37
sponsorships, or just run
00:37
campaigns on their podcast. And
00:43
so we're really just excited to
00:43
have you on. And we've got a lot
00:48
of questions about sponsorships.
00:48
So thanks for being here.
00:51  Agnes
Awesome. Likewise, I'm
00:51
really excited to be here and
00:54
chat with you.
00:55  Alban
So you have a really
00:55
interesting background, you've
00:58
actually done something very
00:58
similar to popcorn, except for a
01:01
YouTube in the past. And if
01:01
anyone knows what FameBit is,
01:04
you're the co founder of
01:04
FameBit. Yeah, tell us a little
01:07
bit about your background, and
01:07
the work you did with FameBit
01:10
before starting popcorn.
01:12  Unknown
So that's exactly it
01:12
prior to popcorn, my co founder
01:16
and I had founded FameBit, which
01:16
was a marketplace connecting
01:19
YouTube stars, to brands for
01:19
endorsements. And what led me to
01:23
actually discover FameBit was
01:23
that I actually, while I was a
01:27
student, I had founded a
01:27
subscription commerce company,
01:30
this was like really early on in
01:30
the Birchbox days. And as a
01:33
starving brand with no marketing
01:33
budget, I saw an opportunity to
01:37
work with creators, and
01:37
basically built out a network by
01:42
myself, because at the time,
01:42
there was multi channel networks
01:44
and agencies, working with sort
01:44
of the biggest celebrities and
01:48
charging a lot of money to work
01:48
with creators. So I went
01:51
directly built out on that work.
01:51
And then, you know, I saw
01:55
incredible return on my little
01:55
startup, and boom, a light bulb
01:59
sort of went on that, you know,
01:59
this was a much bigger
02:03
opportunity, and that there was
02:03
so many creators that wanted to
02:06
work with brands, there are so
02:06
many brands like myself that had
02:09
no idea how to get in touch with
02:09
these creators. And before I
02:13
knew it, there was this whole
02:13
messy process that I discovered
02:15
of like, how do you find the
02:15
creators? How do you contact
02:18
them? How do you negotiate
02:18
pricing? And then how do you
02:21
manage everything and messy
02:21
spreadsheets. So at that time,
02:24
you know, youtubers were very
02:24
much becoming sort of the next
02:27
generation celebrities. And so
02:27
FameBit was born. And then we
02:32
were acquired by Google actually
02:32
in 2016. So that was an
02:36
incredible outcome. And we
02:36
learned a ton, my co founder and
02:40
I, and then we saw the emergence
02:40
of podcasting. We saw a lot of
02:45
YouTubers and other creators
02:45
moving over from other mediums
02:49
and starting podcasts and
02:49
diversifying their content. And
02:53
we saw you know, that podcasters
02:53
it's not just content, they're
02:56
actual influencers. So that's
02:56
sort of how popcorn came came to
03:01
me.
03:01  Alban
Okay, so this isn't in my
03:01
outline, but I have to ask, so
03:05
you were very early. I mean, you
03:05
were really early at spotting
03:09
how YouTube was about to emerge.
03:09
And now you've seen something in
03:14
podcasting as well. Can you talk
03:14
to us a little bit about what
03:18
what is it that gave you the
03:18
idea that YouTube was about to
03:21
blow up? And what do you see in
03:21
podcasting, now,
03:25  Unknown
this was back into the
03:25
2013 with FameBit, everybody
03:29
sort of thought of, of YouTube
03:29
as a place for cat videos. But I
03:35
was actually a consumer of
03:35
YouTube content. YouTube,
03:38
youtubers actually made me buy a
03:38
lot of things that worked. And I
03:41
was really happy. And I looked
03:41
to them for their expertise and
03:44
advice. So and they also, you
03:44
know, I saw that they moved my
03:48
product, like nothing else. So
03:48
from there, I saw their
03:51
influence, I saw the influence
03:51
that they had with their
03:53
audiences. And then with
03:53
podcasting, it was sort of very
03:58
similar, you know, we, we saw a
03:58
lot of the same problems
04:01
emerging that we saw in the
04:01
early days of video, majority of
04:04
the ecosystem of podcasters was
04:04
not monetizing, even though
04:07
they're incredibly fabulous and
04:07
have so much influence and so
04:10
much expertise on very niche
04:10
topics that convert for brands.
04:14
And so we wanted to fill that
04:14
monetization void because so
04:19
far, the opportunities for brand
04:19
collaborations with podcasters
04:22
have been very much sort of the
04:22
traditional radio ad style
04:27
mentality. And we wanted to
04:27
bring native and really show
04:31
that podcasters are celebrities
04:31
and you know, I do think we're
04:35
going to move into this sort of
04:35
other universe where you're
04:38
going to see podcasters really
04:38
treated more as celebrities,
04:42
whether it's like book deals or
04:42
shows or like these grand
04:46
collaborations with brands, I
04:46
think the space is going to
04:49
evolve very much sort of like
04:49
the way YouTube has.
04:53  Alban
Alright, so I love what
04:53
you're saying. And I feel like I
04:55
have a another dozen questions
04:55
based off of just what you're
04:59
going with there. One of the
04:59
things that has always kind of
05:02
popped up to me is we were used
05:02
to living in this world with
05:06
mass marketing, especially with
05:06
advertising, you know, we just
05:10
had the Superbowl and Superbowl
05:10
ads are the way to get in front
05:12
of millions and millions of
05:12
people. And what YouTube and the
05:16
web have allowed us to do is
05:16
actually connect one to one with
05:21
people to very small targeted
05:21
segments and deliver products
05:26
and things that they would
05:26
really be interested in. And I
05:29
love that you saw kind of that
05:29
same thing happening in YouTube,
05:33
and now happening again, in
05:33
podcasting, because what I love
05:36
about podcasting is it is so
05:36
focused, you know, the average
05:40
podcast doesn't get over 100
05:40
plays per episode. But what that
05:45
means is those 100 people are
05:45
people who are really great
05:48
fits. And so it opens up this
05:48
world to a brand connecting
05:54
exactly to their target
05:54
audience.
05:57  Agnes
Absolutely. That's
05:57
exactly it. And that's what I
05:59
discovered with FameBit. And
05:59
that's, you know, what the
06:03
thesis that proved true to be
06:03
with popcorn as well is about
06:06
this the power of the micro
06:06
influencer, you know, that you
06:10
don't have to have a million
06:10
downloads, or million
06:13
subscribers, whether it's
06:13
YouTube, you know, or
06:16
podcasting, to really convert
06:16
for brands, it's really about
06:19
the right fit for the right
06:19
brand. And I saw that as a small
06:23
brand. You know, I was working
06:23
with creators who had sometimes
06:26
you know, 1000 subscribers or
06:26
5000 subscribers, and it's about
06:30
the fact that they're loyal, it
06:30
doesn't matter. Like they're
06:34
really trusting that creator,
06:34
for whatever it is that whatever
06:37
information it is that they're
06:37
delivering, whether it's, you
06:41
know, entertainment, or
06:41
information or education. So
06:44
that's, that's really powerful.
06:44
And you nailed it, it's really
06:48
about finding the right fit the
06:48
right fit of the brand. And, and
06:52
that's where we see the magic
06:52
happen. And you know, you know,
06:55
we tell brands that bit who want
06:55
a lot of impressions, that it's
06:59
kind of like putting all your
06:59
eggs in one basket on a big
07:02
creator, it could be a hit, but
07:02
it could be a huge mess. Whereas
07:06
like, if you work with 20,
07:06
smaller creators, somebody is
07:10
going to convert, and they're
07:10
going to convert really well.
07:13
And oftentimes, it's sometimes
07:13
the smallest creator, that ends
07:17
up converting the most just
07:17
because of the fit and their
07:20
passion for the brand. I
07:20
actually think like within
07:23
podcasting, compared to YouTube,
07:23
it's an easier sell, because you
07:27
have so much more real estate to
07:27
work with, and so much more time
07:31
to give to a brand or to do
07:31
something authentic that you
07:34
don't have in a video, the
07:34
turnaround times are so much
07:38
faster. So brands don't have to
07:38
wait a long time before they get
07:41
something out. So I think from
07:41
just even those two
07:44
perspectives, it makes it a lot
07:44
easier for podcasters to to sell
07:48
even when they're small, because
07:48
they could be like, you know,
07:52
I'm giving you 10 minutes of my
07:52
airtime. And that's, that's
07:56
pretty powerful.
07:57  Alban
Whenever I've been on the
07:57
buying end of sponsorships, and
08:00
I actually, before YouTube
08:00
changed the model, I actually
08:03
used FameBit. And it worked
08:03
super well for us. So I can kind
08:07
of validate how well that
08:07
worked. When I've ever been on
08:10
the other side. I feel like a
08:10
lot of times people show you the
08:15
biggest name creators. And so I
08:15
see like, I see big soccer
08:19
players, or I see Kim Kardashian
08:19
or Justin Bieber, they're all at
08:23
the top. And what's funny is,
08:23
it's always like you see them
08:27
and you're like, oh, what could
08:27
they do for my brand? But you
08:30
could totally Miss like, it's
08:30
not about impressions, it's
08:35
impressions, but it's also how
08:35
loyal and trusting is their
08:39
audience? And then do they trust
08:39
them for things in this area? If
08:44
somebody wants fashion advice,
08:44
like maybe Justin Bieber is a
08:48
good person for them to get
08:48
fashion advice from but he's not
08:51
a person who's going to tell you
08:51
maybe the next podcast to listen
08:55
to or what camera to buy if
08:55
you're trying to do a live
08:59
stream setup. And so it's always
08:59
about kind of finding the right
09:03
fit where someone has a good
09:03
audience but the audience cares
09:06
about them and they really care
09:06
that you can deliver insight
09:10
into a particular product or
09:10
service. Yeah, that's
09:14  Unknown
that's exactly uh, you
09:14
know, and I think to that same
09:18
on that same sort of wavelength
09:18
it also goes to the same for the
09:20
brands right like not every
09:20
brand can afford to work with
09:24
the biggest stars but they have
09:24
this misconception that you
09:26
know, I need to work with a Kim
09:26
Kardashian or a Joe Rogan in
09:30
order to move my product but
09:30
that doesn't move product if
09:33
it's not the right fit for the
09:33
industry if they're not experts
09:36
or you know regarded within the
09:36
space there may or may not move
09:40
product and also the
09:40
listenership even though it's
09:44
large, they might not be
09:44
interested in that. Whereas like
09:48
if it's really targeted, like we
09:48
had one of our Brand Partners
09:52
lumen which is a startup and
09:52
they worked with micro
09:56
influencers within the health
09:56
and wellness space because Their
10:00
devices helps you hack your
10:00
metabolism. So they worked with
10:04
smaller creators who are
10:04
reorders experts, they did very
10:08
native stuff like interview
10:08
segments and product overviews
10:12
that sort of, you know, help
10:12
explain to the listeners the
10:15
value of the product to really
10:15
like be more journalistic, more
10:18
inquisitive. And, and they were
10:18
able to see a 300% return. And
10:23
that's just from micro creators.
10:23
So that that goes to show to
10:28
brands as well. And I think
10:28
it's, it's a huge education
10:30
component. And this is why I'm
10:30
so excited that we have that
10:34
opportunity to show brands the
10:34
value of that
10:37  Alban
we're not just talking
10:37
about ads, we're actually going
10:40
much more in depth. And so I
10:40
think kind of brings us back to
10:44
this question of what's the
10:44
difference between a sponsorship
10:48
and just running an
10:48
advertisement, we can talk
10:51
about, like, how those are
10:51
actually different what you
10:53
create, but also, how does that
10:53
feel different to the audience
10:58
that's consuming this content,
10:59  Unknown
night and day
10:59
absolutely a lot more engaging.
11:01
You know, there's so many
11:01
studies already, that have come
11:04
out that show that even host
11:04
read ads not even like real true
11:08
native integrations convert so
11:08
much better for brands, there's
11:11
so much less disruptive for
11:11
listeners, because they're part
11:15
of the content, they're, you
11:15
know, you're hearing your
11:17
favorite creator, talk about
11:17
something. It's not like a
11:20
commercial break. And I think
11:20
that's, that's like a really,
11:24
really huge distinction right
11:24
there.
11:26  Alban
I love that you use the
11:26
word commercial, because we
11:29
often talk about dynamic ad
11:29
insertion, which is not
11:32
something that popcorn is doing,
11:32
which is just dropping an ad
11:35
into the middle of a podcast
11:35
episode. And it's being sold
11:39
right now is this is going to be
11:39
the solution for podcast
11:42
monetization. But what it's
11:42
actually doing is saying, Hey,
11:46
why don't we just do something
11:46
that's been working in radio for
11:50
100 and over 100 years, and
11:50
bring it in to the digital age,
11:55
when it misses why we like
11:55
podcasting to begin with
11:58
podcasting is intimate, we have
11:58
these deep connections with our
12:02
audience, our audience could be
12:02
listening to us for years, 45
12:06
minutes a week. So now they've
12:06
spent more time with the host of
12:10
a podcast they may have spent
12:10
with a really good friend. And
12:15
that relationship matters. And
12:15
so if all of a sudden you say,
12:20
oh, let's just drop in a Geico
12:20
ad, well, that's not going to
12:23
convert close to as well as if
12:23
the host, even if the host reads
12:28
the same Geico ad. It's such a
12:28
different experience.
12:31  Unknown
Yeah, absolutely.
12:31
There's a huge separation
12:33
between the creator and the
12:33
brand, and there's no
12:37
connection. So the authenticity
12:37
is completely not there. You
12:42
know, when it comes to
12:42
traditional ads versus content,
12:46
that's we've done by the
12:46
Creator. And also another
12:49
difference with sponsorships and
12:49
traditional ads is that creators
12:53
with sponsorships actually get
12:53
to get the product from the
12:56
brand, they get to try it out.
12:56
They so you're not only getting
12:59
free product, but you're getting
12:59
to test it out, you're getting
13:01
to add that authenticity, to the
13:01
ad. And again, it's not the
13:06
brand's voice, it's your voice.
13:06
And, and the way like we're
13:10
structured is that we don't ever
13:10
force creators, you know, to go
13:13
through with a sponsorship, if
13:13
they decide to get the product,
13:16
and they don't like it. But
13:16
there is that ability to test
13:20
there. And to again, like be
13:20
more journalistic about what
13:23
you're promoting. And also, you
13:23
know, be the sort of tester or
13:28
for your listeners about things
13:28
in your space, whether it's
13:31
health and wellness, whether
13:31
it's beauty, whether it's
13:34
gaming, to sort of be the one to
13:34
test it out for them and be
13:39
honest brands want honesty, I
13:39
think, you know, we've come so
13:42
far with influencer marketing
13:42
from when we started, wherever,
13:45
where brands really wanted
13:45
something polished, they
13:47
understand now the value of
13:47
honesty and the value of like
13:52
being really raw. And brands are
13:52
also looking for podcasters. Now
13:56
to to really be part of the
13:56
product development process. So
14:00
like a lot of brands are working
14:00
with podcasters, even before
14:02
they launch. So that's that's
14:02
also an opportunity to help
14:07
develop the product with the
14:07
brands. And through that.
14:10
Another distinction, I think
14:10
that you don't get with
14:12
traditional ads is that you you
14:12
get to establish these brand
14:16
relationships that can lead to
14:16
that can open doors to a whole
14:21
other world, you know whether it
14:21
is sort of a long brand
14:24
ambassadorship or collaboration
14:24
on like a product line, things
14:30
like that.
14:30  Alban
So when we're talking
14:30
about authenticity in reading
14:34
these ads, some of the
14:34
podcasters that come to mind are
14:38
Bill Burr like notoriously just
14:38
rips his podcast ads apart. But
14:44
what happens is it's so funny
14:44
that you listen to it. There
14:48
used to be this trick back in TV
14:48
man, this has got to be now like
14:51
almost 20 years ago. I remember
14:51
waiting last was on TV, that
14:56
they would actually work some
14:56
ads in the middle of the
14:58
commercial break. They'll look
14:58
like they were from the TV show,
15:02
to try to get you to stop. And
15:02
just be careful that you didn't
15:05
fast forward. And he actually
15:05
paid attention. And it's almost
15:09
like podcasting is doing that
15:09
again, because when you're
15:13
listening to Bill Burr podcast,
15:13
and you kind of want him to be
15:15
funny, and then he goes into an
15:15
ad, if he were just to sing the
15:20
praises of the product, it feels
15:20
like an ad. But then if he rips
15:25
them, if they say something
15:25
Goofy, or they use kind of
15:28
marketing speak, then you're
15:28
laughing along with him. And you
15:32
almost kind of think the brain
15:32
can take their lumps, you know,
15:35
they they're not afraid of
15:35
someone saying something goofy
15:38
battle. So you actually build
15:38
brand affinity. When someone's
15:42
getting kind of dig that a
15:42
little bit.
15:44  Unknown
I think there's also
15:44
this thing that a lot of brands
15:48
have that it's either native or
15:48
either dynamic, I think there's
15:51
also a space where you can take
15:51
these awesome, like creator
15:55
made, you know, ads that are
15:55
very native, and you can
16:00
repurpose them as dynamic. So
16:00
it's now again, like the
16:04
creators voice, even if it's on
16:04
another creators podcast, it's
16:07
very native to the medium and it
16:07
doesn't feel so polished and
16:12
inauthentic. And like a radio
16:12
style commercial. So I think
16:15
there's also like evolution of
16:15
word dynamic ads can go and how
16:20
native can can help actually
16:20
brands with the authenticity and
16:25
their dynamic approach as well.
16:27  Alban
No, that's super
16:27
interesting. Yeah, I'd never
16:28
thought of it that way. You
16:28
could see a future where a
16:33
company was, you know, putting
16:33
out some copy and some ideas and
16:38
lots of podcasters were
16:38
recording that real ads, and
16:42
then adding them into their
16:42
show. But you're now saying
16:44
those could be cross promoted
16:44
into other podcasts that may be
16:50
a great fit. For the similar
16:50
audience?
16:53  Unknown
Absolutely. You know,
16:53
if you're working with 30
16:56
podcasters, the the power of
16:56
native is that you get 30
17:00
different ads, 30 different
17:00
voices, you get to test
17:03
different verticals, you get to
17:03
test different creative, and
17:07
then you can pick five of the
17:07
best ones and cut them down or,
17:11
you know, and do different fun
17:11
things with them, obviously,
17:14
with the permission of the
17:14
Creator. But I think, you know,
17:18
creators are willing to do that
17:18
because they are the creative
17:22
like a lot of times I find like,
17:22
what creators come up with and
17:25
like, this is why like, we
17:25
structure popcorn so that
17:27
creators can pitch themselves
17:27
and they can pitch creative
17:30
ideas, because their ideas are
17:30
better than some of the you
17:34
know, most expensive studios and
17:34
creative ad agencies because
17:37
they know their listenership
17:37
they have an expertise in the
17:41
topic area. So I think I think
17:41
there's an opportunity for that.
17:46
Absolutely.
17:47  Alban
If there's somebody right
17:47
now, on this podcast, who's
17:49
watching this, and they want to
17:49
know, how do I pitch a brand,
17:54
let's say they found a brand
17:54
themselves, or they logged into
17:57
pod corn, and they actually
17:57
found a company that they really
18:00
want to work with, they have
18:00
their target? What should they
18:04
do? Are there any best practices
18:04
for pitching a brand?
18:06  Unknown
Well, I think first and
18:06
foremost, you need to focus on
18:09
choosing the right brands. And
18:09
it goes back to brand fit,
18:12
ensuring that you know you're
18:12
pitching something that you
18:16
yourself genuinely feel like you
18:16
want to promote, because your
18:19
listeners are gonna see through
18:19
that, if it's, you know, just a
18:23
monetization exchange. So if
18:23
make sure that it's the right
18:27
fit for your industry for your
18:27
space, and sometimes it doesn't
18:30
have to be an exact fit. Like
18:30
you don't have to be a food
18:33
related podcast to promote
18:33
chips, you know, that you love
18:36
yourself and that you really
18:36
like. So it's, I think there's a
18:39
mix of like passion, and
18:39
actually like niche expertise,
18:44
and also like what your
18:44
listeners like. So think about
18:47
that. Sometimes I think it's,
18:47
you know, it's good for
18:50
podcasters to have these
18:50
conversations, whether it's on
18:55
other mediums or some how
18:55
engaged their listeners and what
18:58
they want to hear or what they
18:58
want advice on. Because that's
19:02
stuff you can go back to the
19:02
brand and say, you know, I'm
19:05
getting my listeners asked about
19:05
my skincare routine. So this
19:09
might actually like be really
19:09
relevant. And I think like your
19:12
product would be a good fit for
19:12
that. So just really going that
19:16
extra mile to figuring out if if
19:16
it's the right brand fit. Also,
19:21
again, like doing your homework
19:21
on the brand, and not doing
19:25
cookie cutter like pasted
19:25
proposals, and ensuring like
19:30
that you understand their value
19:30
and their brand proposition. And
19:33
sometimes even then you're in
19:33
your proposal asking the right
19:36
questions. You know, are you
19:36
looking for brand awareness? Are
19:39
you looking to drive sales or
19:39
get people to a website? Or are
19:44
you looking for followers to
19:44
your social, and I think I'm
19:47
just going the extra mile to ask
19:47
the questions puts the podcaster
19:52
in expert position. I mean
19:52
podcast advertising is fairly
19:55
new, especially like the native
19:55
components. So a lot of brands
19:58
are doing it for the first time.
19:58
So they're they're looking to
20:01
podcasters to be the experts.
20:04  Alban
One of the things that I
20:04
see every once while I'll have a
20:06
podcaster, or a YouTube channel
20:06
or some kind of influencer,
20:10
reach out to me and say, I'd
20:10
like to do a sponsorship with
20:14
Buzzsprout. One of the things
20:14
that's kind of a clear giveaway
20:18
to me that it's not a good idea
20:18
is when the main thing they're
20:23
providing is, I have 1.5 million
20:23
subs on YouTube. But they don't
20:29
talk about what the channel is
20:29
about. They don't have a
20:32
podcast. And so I know, you
20:32
probably can do a really good
20:37
job selling some stuff. But I
20:37
didn't see anything in the pitch
20:43
that told me why you reached out
20:43
to me beyond the thought that I
20:48
have. I have money. You know,
20:48
what, what things can people
20:51
tell a brand? To let the brand
20:51
know, I understand you. And I
20:55
know your product well enough
20:55
that I will be a good
20:58
spokesperson for your product?
21:00  Unknown
Yeah, that's a great
21:00
question. I think, you know, a
21:02
lot of podcasters think that,
21:02
you know, they know their
21:06
podcast really well. So they
21:06
don't really need to describe
21:09
it, they talk about them, they
21:09
make it about them. They don't
21:12
necessarily make it about their
21:12
show and their audience. And I
21:15
think that's where there's an
21:15
opportunity, because a brand's
21:18
not going to listen to every
21:18
episode you might have. But
21:20
there might be a fit, it might
21:20
not be super obvious. Like for
21:23
instance, you might be a mom who
21:23
has a parenting podcast, but you
21:27
also love fitness and healthy
21:27
eating. So there's like a whole
21:31
world of sponsorships and
21:31
health. That might make sense.
21:35
But like, if the title of your
21:35
podcast is something to do with
21:38
parenting, a brand might just
21:38
overlook it, and they might miss
21:41
it. So I think like spelling,
21:41
the connection out is super
21:45
important. For instance, like if
21:45
you have majority of a female
21:47
audience, and this is a product
21:47
that targets females, and even
21:51
if it's not related to like your
21:51
topics, not related to the
21:54
industry, talk about that,
21:54
because a lot of brands are
21:57
looking to target a specific
21:57
audience. So if you know you're
22:00
it's female, let them know if
22:00
you know it's a mix, then then
22:04
let them know that just letting
22:04
them know why you think it's a
22:08
good fit. That goes a long way.
22:08
Because you have thought about
22:11
your episodes, way more than
22:11
anyone else you might know like
22:14
your upcoming guests. Like, even
22:14
if you have a related guest
22:18
within the industry that might
22:18
be really cool and interesting
22:21
to the brand like an expert in
22:21
their field. That may be an
22:25
interesting approach as well.
22:26  Alban
I think that's very
22:26
interesting. I think that's a
22:29
really good way of approaching
22:29
it. One of the things that I
22:32
know people get hung up on is if
22:32
they don't hear something back
22:36
from the brand. So maybe they
22:36
make a proposal. And it was kind
22:41
of nerve wracking, and they'd
22:41
never heard back should they
22:45
follow up? What do you think the
22:45
right etiquette is there? Well,
22:48
I
22:48  Unknown
can speak to kind of
22:48
like the way it works at pod
22:51
corn, you know, um, yeah,
22:51
creators sometimes don't hear
22:53
back. The thing is that brands
22:53
get a ton of proposals, it takes
22:58
them time. So it's obviously
22:58
patience for them to to review
23:01
sunburns. also hire creators in
23:01
batches when they get a lot of
23:05
proposals. So just because you
23:05
don't hear back initially
23:08
doesn't mean that you will never
23:08
get hired some things you might
23:10
get hired in 30 days. So
23:10
patience is key. I think you
23:16
know, sometimes going back and
23:16
like re editing your proposal
23:19
or, and adding something new
23:19
could be helpful. But if you're
23:24
going to brands directly, yeah,
23:24
I mean, follow up. I think
23:27
persistence and passion is key.
23:27
I think, you know, if the brand
23:31
you hear back that they say no,
23:31
then that's one thing. I'd love,
23:36
obviously like for creators to
23:36
ask like, why, like, what, what
23:39
do you think like would be the
23:39
right fit? Just to know for for
23:43
other sponsors? But yeah,
23:43
persistence is is persistence
23:47
and passion. Like, I mean, even
23:47
I remember like, for my brand,
23:51
when I hired creators, a lot of
23:51
times, it was because they said
23:55
they were inspired by my
23:55
founding story, you know what I
23:58
mean? Or they related to me, in
23:58
some way, or they saw this month
24:04
box, and they were like, Wow,
24:04
those products are really cool.
24:07
I would love to run a giveaway
24:07
for my listeners. And so there
24:10
are different ways that I think
24:10
creators can approach it to. So
24:15
I think again, like thinking
24:15
about the brand's bottom line,
24:18
like at the end of the day,
24:18
brands are doing this for a
24:21
reason they want to move
24:21
product. So just show them right
24:24
off the bat that you are
24:24
thinking about that. And I think
24:27
that goes a long way and
24:27
standing out at the outset.
24:31  Alban
So when someone does say
24:31
that, you know reaches out the
24:35
first time or maybe with a
24:35
follow up in popcorn, you can
24:38
kind of specify which type of
24:38
ads you would be interested in
24:41
or what have sponsorships. You
24:41
could be talking about just
24:44
doing pre roll and post roll
24:44
ads. But you can also do like a
24:48
interview with the founder. You
24:48
could be doing a product
24:52
sponsorship where you actually
24:52
talk about the product. Can you
24:56
give us just maybe high level
24:56
what are some of those things
25:00
options, and how should you pick
25:00
which of those is right for your
25:03
podcast?
25:04  Agnes
Yeah, so obviously,
25:04
there's the host read ads,
25:07
everyone knows of the pre mid,
25:07
and post roll, I kind of think
25:10
of them more as like a shout out
25:10
to the brand, because it's like,
25:14
generally 15 to 30 seconds in
25:14
length. And you know, a lot of
25:18
brands, what's interesting is a
25:18
lot of brands come to
25:21
podcasting, wanting the middle
25:21
spot. But I think like the pre
25:25
roll will actually be like, we
25:25
found that the pre roll converts
25:29
better for brands, then the mid
25:29
roll spot, in test that we ran
25:32
with brands. So I think that's a
25:32
very interesting finding. And I
25:36
think it's also because the
25:36
preroll doesn't have to relate
25:40
so much directly to the episode,
25:40
it could be like part of your
25:43
introduction, you know, whether
25:43
you're talking about, like,
25:47
things you discovered recently,
25:47
or products you're loving, or
25:51
like things you want to talk
25:51
about, and like, just make it
25:54
really natural that you can do
25:54
in an intro. Whereas like a
25:58
mineral only works, I think, if
25:58
it's really well integrated,
26:01
otherwise, it's just like,
26:01
again, a commercial break, and
26:05
it feels disassociated. So if
26:05
you're talking about something
26:08
that relates to what you're
26:08
going to be promoting, then
26:12
absolutely a mineral spot, make
26:12
sense. But I think from those
26:15
two, I think approval goes goes
26:15
better. And it's also like a
26:19
frequency thing, if you're going
26:19
to do host read ads, you can't
26:23
just do one, you can't get a
26:23
brand, just one time shadow and
26:26
expect that like, you know, it's
26:26
gonna they're gonna hire you
26:30
again. And it's all amazing.
26:30
It's up to creators to convince
26:33
brands like, No, we need to do
26:33
this, like at least three to six
26:37
times for this to work. And
26:37
again, like that's more
26:40
monetization to the Creator. And
26:40
it's just like, take a chance
26:44
because it's all about like
26:44
repetition. And our listeners
26:47
really hearing it
26:48  Alban
the first time that was
26:48
ever kind of driven home for me
26:51
was this is it a different
26:51
company, but we are trying
26:56
mailers in the mail, we were
26:56
reaching out to prospective
26:59
companies. And we were telling
26:59
him about our product. And we
27:02
never saw any return on it. And
27:02
I think that's because we did it
27:06
one time. And then I realized,
27:06
every week or every two weeks, I
27:12
was getting a mailer from a
27:12
dentist. And then I knew I was
27:16
going to switch dentists. And
27:16
then oh, I get that mailer from
27:20
the one place all the time. And
27:20
I think it must be right around
27:23
the street. So I looked it up.
27:23
And then it clicked in my mind,
27:26
I was like, they've been sending
27:26
these every month for six months
27:31
straight. And I built, it's not
27:31
really an affinity, but it was
27:35
definitely an awareness of them.
27:35
And they seemed like good
27:39
people. And it seemed like they
27:39
had good rates. And then when I
27:41
was in the market, and I was
27:41
looking for a new dentist, then
27:45
I went, Oh, I know who to go to,
27:45
we always want this direct
27:48
action marketing where we say,
27:48
come buy this product. And then
27:53
we want to measure it right then
27:53
how many people came in bought
27:56
the product. And so we know
27:56
whether or not we're profitable.
27:58
But sometimes it does take three
27:58
610 times of interacting with
28:04
somebody before they feel
28:04
comfortable enough with your
28:07
brand. And maybe you catch them
28:07
at the right moment when they
28:11
are in the market to make a
28:11
purchase.
28:13  Unknown
Yeah, I couldn't agree
28:13
more repetition is key. And also
28:16
like you could do different ads
28:16
and test, you know different
28:20
things that you say about the
28:20
brand. And you can also engage
28:24
your listeners like it's also a
28:24
really authentic way where you
28:27
could use the first author and
28:27
add to announce that you're
28:29
trying something out, like oh,
28:29
you just got this product from
28:32
the brand, you're going to test
28:32
it out. And then you know, the
28:35
second or third one can be like
28:35
about your experience of it and
28:39
actual like feedback and
28:39
testimonials of, of how it's
28:42
working for you. So there's
28:42
there's different creative ways
28:46
of absolutely doing it. But post
28:46
read ads can be can be very
28:50
native and can be integrated
28:50
very well and and feel very
28:54
different than the scripted
28:54
stuff a lot of friends want to
28:58
do.
28:59  Alban
So someone's ready.
28:59
They've made their pitch,
29:03
they've connected with a brand
29:03
that they want to work with one
29:07
big hang up for a lot of
29:07
podcasters is they the
29:10
beginning, they just have no
29:10
idea what to charge. Should they
29:13
charge based on the number of
29:13
people listening to the podcast?
29:17
Should they try to come up with
29:17
some sort of value pricing based
29:20
on the relationship they have?
29:20
They don't know the answer to
29:24
that. And they also don't know
29:24
what are reasonable rates to
29:27
begin with. Can you give us an
29:27
idea of how to price ads and
29:31
sponsorships
29:32  Unknown
so it also like depends
29:32
on like the how native this
29:36
stuff is that you're doing when
29:36
you're doing the host read
29:38
stuff, what we tend to see
29:38
podcasters get hired for on the
29:41
platform. And again, like you
29:41
could charge whatever it is that
29:44
you want, like on popcorn, we
29:44
let creators set their own
29:46
pricing. We really wanted to
29:46
open up the marketplace because
29:50
you know to someone $100 might
29:50
be a value for that particular
29:56
sponsorship. Someone might not
29:56
want to do anything for less
29:59
than 1000 And like, obviously,
29:59
it's like very individual. But
30:02
as far as like what we see
30:02
creators get hired for, for
30:05
hosted ads, whether it's like
30:05
pre roll or mid roll, we see a
30:09
range between 15 to $30. CPM is
30:09
what they base their fee on. So
30:15
it is, in that sense sort of
30:15
based off of their, their
30:20
downloads. But when you're doing
30:20
stuff that's more native, like
30:24
an interview, or a product
30:24
overview, or having a guest,
30:29
that's really, you know, maybe
30:29
perhaps like you're not an
30:32
expert in the brands field, but
30:32
your guest is an expert, and
30:35
they're a big influencer. So
30:35
like, that puts a premium on on
30:39
your fee. So for that, when
30:39
things are more integrated, and
30:43
a little bit more longer form,
30:43
we see creators take anywhere
30:47
between 25 to $50. CPM, or, you
30:47
know, if you're smaller and
30:52
you're under 1000 downloads,
30:52
then I really recommend working
30:55
off of like a flat rate. So just
30:55
decide like maybe, you know, for
31:00
$100, you'll do the interview,
31:00
and like you charge more on the
31:04
creative and your expertise in
31:04
the field. And sort of justify
31:10
it that way. Or, or perhaps you
31:10
could charge a bigger fee and
31:13
just sort of do a package of
31:13
like, Oh, I'm going to give you
31:17
five hosts read ads one
31:17
interview, and just figure out
31:21
what what a flat rate fee might
31:21
be for that for the content.
31:25  Alban
One of the things we've
31:25
added recently to Buzzsprout is
31:27
the ability to do dynamic ads,
31:27
or dynamic content, where you
31:32
could put an ad as a pre roll or
31:32
post roll into the episode. And
31:36
it's only there until you remove
31:36
it, you can later on remove the
31:40
episode without re uploading new
31:40
episodes. Do you think that's a
31:43
better tactic than kind of
31:43
baking the ad into the episode?
31:47
Which, which way? Would you
31:47
recommend advertisers and
31:51
podcasters to go?
31:52  Unknown
Yeah, I mean, those are
31:52
two different ways of
31:54
monetizing, but I think like the
31:54
problem with the traditional
31:59
ads, and just monetizing based
31:59
on impressions is that it
32:02
benefits the top of the funnel
32:02
creators, like the biggest
32:06
creators, whereas the smaller
32:06
creators ended up making pennies
32:11
for listener hours. So I think
32:11
it benefits them more to sort of
32:16
charge a flat rate for the
32:16
content creation, I mean, at the
32:19
end of the day, like doing an
32:19
interview with a brand takes a
32:23
lot of work, they get a lot of
32:23
airtime, they get a lot of
32:28
promotion, or you know, so I
32:28
think native in that sense,
32:32
allows creators to charge a lot
32:32
more because they're charging
32:36
based on their influence and
32:36
their expertise in that topic.
32:40
And all these other factors that
32:40
don't get considered in dynamic
32:44
ads. I think like, it's great to
32:44
have both options. And if
32:48
creators can monetize both ways
32:48
with relevant ads, then that's
32:52
great. But I think native also
32:52
just for your listeners is a lot
32:57
like we said is a lot more
32:57
engaging. So it's it's just a
33:01
great way to to earn more money
33:01
and also really be an influencer
33:07
within your area.
33:08  Alban
Well, this is all
33:08
incredibly interesting. And I
33:14
feel like I've learned a lot,
33:14
there's a lot of points that
33:16
you've made, I'd never made the
33:16
connection, for instance, that
33:20
why mid roll ads may not convert
33:20
as well, because they don't feel
33:23
like they fit into the content
33:23
as well as maybe pre roll that
33:27
doesn't have to just talking
33:27
about the importance of really
33:33
finding the right connection
33:33
between the brand and the
33:36
podcast, and the audience that
33:36
they have.
33:40  Unknown
And the content really.
33:40
And I think like to your point
33:43
about like whether dynamic is
33:43
better or native, I think it
33:47
comes to the fit, right? Like if
33:47
the native ad is integrated into
33:51
the episode, and it makes sense.
33:51
And it's relates to what your
33:55
podcast is what your passion is,
33:55
and it doesn't feel fake, and it
33:59
lives forever. Like That is
33:59
amazing. It forever fits. But if
34:04
it's inauthentic and you're just
34:04
pushing something to to earn
34:08
some money, then then that is
34:08
never a good idea no matter what
34:12
it is.
34:12  Alban
Well, is there any
34:12
question that I've missed
34:14
anything that we should be
34:14
asking about podcast ads that
34:18
you would you know, or anything
34:18
that you'd like to share?
34:21  Unknown
I think just be
34:21
creative. You know, don't be
34:24
afraid to think outside of the
34:24
box, and lead with the creative
34:28
not with like your resume and
34:28
your profile. Because I think
34:32
like brands are hiring you for
34:32
content. They're hiring you
34:36
because they want to reach your
34:36
audience. So I think like
34:39
sharing as much as you can about
34:39
that sharing, whether it's
34:42
demographics or whether like
34:42
what your episodes are about or
34:46
like what episode you're
34:46
thinking you might put the
34:48
brands and just really thinking
34:48
through that. I think a lot of
34:51
creators that also get hired on
34:51
popcorn are really creative, and
34:54
they already like pre create the
34:54
app for the brand. So they do
34:57
like an audio proposal and
34:57
they'll Literally, like create
35:02
the, the integration for them.
35:02
And so you could see like, one,
35:06
they've done the research on the
35:06
brand. They're super passionate.
35:09
It's like an already made ad. So
35:09
all the brand has to do is like,
35:12
approve and hire and done. So so
35:12
I think like, the more, you
35:17
could just be creative and
35:17
passionate, the more chances
35:21
you'll have to get hired.
35:22  Alban
Awesome. Well, I really
35:22
love that point, maybe pre
35:25
created, especially if you
35:25
already know the brand. If it's
35:28
something unique you use, you've
35:28
done your research, yeah, maybe
35:31
just go ahead and record it.
35:31
Because I know on the brand
35:35
side, man is easy when somebody
35:35
shows up and says, here's what
35:39
I'm going to do. And all I am
35:39
looking for is for you to just
35:43
press buy, and then it's going
35:43
to run and you're not gonna have
35:47
to engage with me a dozen times
35:47
to get the copy right? Here it
35:52
is, it is so nice to be able
35:52
just to do that, because
35:56
everybody's busy. Everyone's got
35:56
a lot going on. And it was a
36:00
podcast, or if you can make it
36:00
easy on the brand. Well, they're
36:03
gonna make it a lot. It makes it
36:03
easy for them to say yes. And
36:07
pull the trigger and do the
36:07
sponsorship.
36:09  Unknown
Absolutely. I think
36:09
also going back to the
36:11
monetization question, if you
36:11
know, if you're smaller, and you
36:15
have a presence on other social
36:15
media platforms, whether it's
36:19
instagram or Tiktok, or, or
36:19
YouTube leverage that, you know,
36:24
like brands love the extra
36:24
social exposure, but you can
36:27
also charge for those followers.
36:27
And if you even you know, also
36:31
like looking at the demographic
36:31
of your Instagram, or like your
36:36
Facebook group or wherever else
36:36
helps give the brand a more
36:40
holistic view of your entire
36:40
profile as an influencer. And
36:44
where you are influential and
36:44
then can you know, it can let
36:47
you monetize a lot more than
36:47
than just your audio. So taking
36:52
that into consideration and
36:52
including that as well, I think
36:55
also is really great.
36:58  Alban
I just thank you so much
36:58
for being here with us and
37:00
sharing everything that you've
37:00
learned with really influencer
37:04
marketing from fat co founding
37:04
FameBit working with Google, and
37:10
now with popcorn. If people want
37:10
to learn more about you and
37:14
about popcorn, where should they
37:14
go?
37:17  Unknown
It should just go to
37:17
popcorn calm. I hope creators
37:21
honestly sign up they have
37:21
nothing to lose and just put
37:24
themselves out there you're
37:24
never too small to to start
37:28
collaborating and creating and
37:28
creating great content for
37:31
brands.