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episode 48: Big changes coming to Apple Podcasts and Spotify? [transcript]


In this episode, we discuss Apple Podcasts crossing 2 Million shows, the rumor mill on upcoming changes to both Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and dig into some listener questions

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 2021-03-26  53m
 
 
00:00  Kevin
Think about it like the
00:00
you guys have what's the Disney
00:02
TV service called Disney plus
00:02
Disney plus? You
00:05  Travis
know, we both have
00:05
children under the age of six,
00:07
right? Yeah, well,
00:08  Kevin
I, I have it as my kids
00:08
are Marvel fans, but I paid
00:12
whatever it is. I'm agitated
00:12
because just a couple weeks ago,
00:15
some movie came out on Disney
00:15
plus, that was like Disney plus
00:17
exclusive. But then I had to pay
00:17
an extra $20 to watch it.
00:23  Alban
What did you pay for it?
00:25  Kevin
I'm probably
00:28  Alban
I love it here. Like,
00:28
your point is, it was annoying,
00:32
but I did it.
00:34  Kevin
A small price to pay for
00:34
quiet kids.
00:40  Travis
So a few days ago, Apple
00:40
podcasts had a really big
00:42
milestone. They now have 2
00:42
million podcasts in their
00:47
directory, which is crazy,
00:47
because it was just last year we
00:50
were talking about how awesome
00:50
it is that they hit 1 million
00:52
podcasts.
00:53  Alban
I remember the olden days
00:53
where we hit 100,000 podcasts. I
00:58
think that was like maybe 2014.
00:58
Everyone was like, oh, man, it's
01:02
already super saturated. And now
01:02
we're at 2 million. It's
01:05
incredible.
01:06  Travis
Yes, it's accelerating
01:06
rather quickly. And so it is a
01:12
big deal. It is a big deal that
01:12
podcasting has continued to grow
01:14
at this accelerating rate. And,
01:14
yeah, it's just it's very
01:19
exciting, very exciting news.
01:19
Now, that doesn't mean that
01:23
there are 2 million podcasts
01:23
putting out an episode every
01:26
single week. That just means
01:26
there's 2 million podcasts
01:29
listed in Apple podcasts. Albin,
01:29
you want to talk about, kind of
01:34
how to parse between those two
01:34
things. I know that over at my
01:38
podcast reviews, Daniel J.
01:38
Lewis, goes a little bit deeper
01:41
into the data that Apple
01:41
provides
01:43  Alban
2 million podcasts sounds
01:43
like a lot. And we've we've
01:46
cited these numbers in the past,
01:46
when you break down the number
01:49
of people that are actually
01:49
actively publishing podcasts.
01:53
And, or they have at least 10
01:53
episodes, the numbers dropped
01:57
dramatically. Just looking at
01:57
active somebody who's released a
02:01
single episode in the last 90
02:01
days. That's only 740,000
02:07
podcasts. So we're looking at
02:07
like almost a third of podcasts
02:11
are active two thirds are
02:11
publishing actively at all. And
02:16
so it's pretty common that, you
02:16
know, a big show jumps to the
02:20
lead and kind of dominates its
02:20
niche for a little while. And
02:25
then maybe the hosts decide that
02:25
it's not what they want to be
02:28
doing long term and opens up a
02:28
new avenue for somebody else to
02:32
come in. So, you know, 2 million
02:32
sounds like a lot, but the
02:35
number of people that are
02:35
actually active is closer to
02:38
something like 740,000
02:41  Travis
Yeah, and some of that,
02:41
too, is there's a lot of free
02:44
hosted podcasts that are still
02:44
listed in Apple that, you know,
02:47
even though they're not doing it
02:47
anymore, they never get pulled,
02:50
the show never gets pulled in.
02:50
So even though it's like
02:53
completely dead, the hosts have
02:53
moved on, it's still active as a
02:55
listing in a similar way that
02:55
when you start a YouTube
02:57
channel, and you upload three
02:57
videos, and then you never do
03:00
anything again, it's still on
03:00
YouTube.
03:02  Alban
Yeah, I mean, there's a
03:02
lot of podcast hosts that will
03:04
never delete your podcast no
03:04
matter what. Or people who just
03:08
decide to keep their podcast up.
03:08
For some reason you and I
03:11
haven't released a new episode
03:11
of how to start a podcast, you
03:15
know, in quite a while, but we
03:15
still have that podcast out
03:17
there. So there's lots of
03:17
podcasts that are still valuable
03:22
information that maybe they're
03:22
just they're just not active
03:25
anymore. And it's totally okay.
03:25
And there's still a lot of space
03:30
for everybody, you know, 2
03:30
million sounds like a lot, but
03:32
it's really not all that much
03:32
when you think about it.
03:35  Travis
Yeah, especially when
03:35
you break down into like, your
03:38
particular niche of what you
03:38
want to talk about with your
03:41
podcast. Right. So even podcasts
03:41
about podcasting is a relatively
03:46
small group of podcasts within
03:46
that 2 million. And so you know,
03:50
when we're trying to create
03:50
Buzzcast episodes, and we're
03:52
trying to get the word out there
03:52
and equipped, independent
03:55
podcasters, we're not competing
03:55
with cereal, we're not competing
03:59
with the daily from the New York
03:59
Times, we're just trying to help
04:03
this particular group of people
04:03
make progress. And so we're not,
04:08
we're not actively competing,
04:08
it's all those other shows. It's
04:10
a much smaller group of shows
04:10
that we're trading audiences
04:14
with, and all serving the same
04:14
kind of person. So when it comes
04:18
to your niche, if you are trying
04:18
to grow your show, don't think
04:21
of like, comparing yourself to
04:21
like, the top 200 list, you're
04:25
just comparing yourself to other
04:25
people that are doing similar
04:27
content.
04:28  Alban
Yeah. And you don't have
04:28
to be the expert in the world to
04:32
be vetted for your information
04:32
to be valuable. You know, you
04:35
need to be the expert that some
04:35
people trust. And so that may be
04:39
the you've got the personality
04:39
they enjoy. You're just your
04:42
angle on things is a little bit
04:42
different. Or you're just
04:45
happened to be the first podcast
04:45
that they found, and they liked
04:49
and so they didn't go on to
04:49
other ones, like the fact that
04:51
there's a dozen or two dozen
04:51
podcasts about podcasting that
04:56
there's still space for more if
04:56
that if that's what you want to
04:59
start Because plenty of people,
04:59
I'm sure listen to this podcast
05:02
and go, yeah, it's not my thing.
05:02
And they find someone with a
05:05
different angle on the same
05:05
industry that they would find
05:08
much more valuable. So never
05:08
feel like somebody else having
05:13
similar podcast, even in the
05:13
same niche, you know, precludes
05:17
you from being able to launch
05:17
the podcast that you want to
05:19
make.
05:20  Travis
Yep. So big news that
05:20
Apple has crossed the 2 million
05:23
podcasts threshold. And with
05:23
that there is an updated version
05:28
of it coming out in the near
05:28
future. And Kevin, I know that
05:31
you have been working on a
05:31
project specifically to look at,
05:35
you know, making sure that we're
05:35
tagging our podcast correctly to
05:39
be used by the directories and
05:39
the different apps, so that all
05:42
the features get mapped
05:42
correctly. And we're using all
05:44
the RSS tags correctly, and all
05:44
that kind of stuff. Give us a
05:47
little update on how that
05:47
projects been going. With
05:50
regards to Apple podcasts.
05:51  Kevin
Sure. Yeah, that's
05:51
exactly right. Part of what we
05:54
do on a pretty regular basis is
05:54
try to keep up to date on what's
05:58
going on with all the latest
05:58
changes, and podcast apps. So
06:01
whether it be a third party app,
06:01
like pocket casts or overcast,
06:05
or a more mainstream app, like
06:05
Apple podcasts, Google podcasts
06:09
or Spotify, they get updated on
06:09
a pretty regular basis. And we
06:13
have to keep up to date to make
06:13
sure that their changes that
06:17
we're accounting for their
06:17
changes correctly in everyone's
06:19
RSS feed. And so I'm working on
06:19
a project, this work cycle
06:24
that's doing exactly that. I'm
06:24
loading up all the way to
06:27
software and multiple different
06:27
devices. And I'm looking at how
06:29
they're interpreting each tag
06:29
and how they're displaying
06:31
everything. And part of that, we
06:31
know that there's a new version
06:36
of Apple podcasts coming out, we
06:36
talked about the change the
06:41
nomenclature change from
06:41
subscribe to follow in our last
06:43
episode. Other people have been
06:43
reporting on this stuff, James
06:47
Kirtland posted about this last
06:47
week and a half or so ago,
06:52
talking about some of these
06:52
changes. Not only are they
06:54
experimenting with how the app
06:54
looks, and maybe some of the
06:57
tags that they're reading or not
06:57
reading any longer, but there
07:00
seems to be a link to your
07:00
iCloud information now inside
07:06
Apple podcasts, which is was
07:06
totally strange. Why in the
07:11
world would they be dropping a
07:11
link to my iCloud information
07:14
inside of a podcast app. Now the
07:14
only other apps that I'm aware
07:17
of that do this are apps that
07:17
allow you to purchase things
07:20
like the old iTunes app, the
07:20
movie app, the TV app, the
07:23
fitness app, those have links to
07:23
your iCloud because you can make
07:26
purchases App Store, App Store,
07:26
right. And it seems to be the
07:30
same dialog box that you get in
07:30
those other apps. And so it
07:33
appears at least, you know,
07:33
possibly, when none of this is
07:38
for sure yet, it's definitely in
07:38
the rumor mill. But it appears
07:41
as though Apple podcast is
07:41
gearing up or preparing the app
07:43
to be able to accept payments.
07:45  Alban
I mean, we talked about
07:45
this two weeks ago, because this
07:49
rumor has been out there for a
07:49
while podcast plus Apple might
07:53
launch something and maybe their
07:53
next subscription service.
07:56
They've launched some companion
07:56
apps for for all mankind. I
07:59
don't know if you guys have
07:59
watched that show. But they did
08:02
make a companion podcast for it.
08:02
And I think since January,
08:07
there's been rumors that they
08:07
want to work with a bunch of
08:11
podcast production companies to
08:11
actually get some podcasts on
08:15
some sort of exclusive Apple
08:15
plan. I mean, I don't know about
08:20
you guys, but I'm personally a
08:20
huge fan, it may actually not be
08:23
the best thing for Buzzsprout to
08:23
have, you know, Apple deciding
08:26
that they want to do all these
08:26
cool payment processor things.
08:30
But it would be really good for
08:30
the podcasting community to have
08:33
more and more ways for people to
08:33
monetize their podcasts. Maybe
08:39
they would just be exclusive to
08:39
Apple in the beginning. But my
08:42
hope would be that they'd open
08:42
the avenues for people to have
08:46
private podcasts in Apple, where
08:46
you could actually accept
08:50
payment there. That'd be pretty
08:50
awesome.
08:53  Kevin
Yeah. Have you guys ever
08:53
used the apple news app?
08:55  Alban
No.
08:56  Kevin
In the apple news app for
08:56
a while there's been an audio
09:00
briefing. And every once in a
09:00
while, they'll bring in like an
09:03
exclusive like, it looks like
09:03
it's all Apple produced content.
09:06
They'll bring an Audio Stories.
09:06
So you'll just be scrolling the
09:09
news app. And then there'll be a
09:09
section for audio briefing or,
09:12
you know, listen to this story.
09:12
And looks like they've been
09:15
experimenting with doing Audio
09:15
Stories within news. And I'm
09:19
wondering if this could be a
09:19
possible extension of that or
09:21
part of the apple news plus
09:21
subscription. Maybe they're
09:25
going to bring it into a podcast
09:25
form. or there might be some
09:29
sort of podcast extension on to
09:29
one of their existing
09:31
subscription plans that they
09:31
already have.
09:33  Travis
I think all of those are
09:33
certainly legitimate ways that
09:36
Apple could go, I could
09:36
certainly see a case being made
09:39
for paywalled content similar to
09:39
what luminary attempted to pull
09:43
off when they launched. That was
09:43
like, what, two years ago, you
09:48
know, to to, certainly some
09:48
strong opinions within the
09:51
industry. I bet that I could
09:51
also see a version of it where,
09:55
like what you would do with
09:55
Patreon if you have a private
09:58
RSS feed set up through there.
09:58
With behind the scenes content
10:02
or bonus episodes, that instead
10:02
of having to do the workaround
10:05
of, okay, manually copy this RSS
10:05
feed into your podcast app, and
10:09
then it should pop up correctly,
10:09
and you could subscribe and
10:11
you'll get the updates as they
10:11
come out. And there's a lot of
10:14
gymnastics that goes on behind
10:14
the scenes to try and get that
10:17
to work natively within some of
10:17
these podcasts listening apps.
10:21
And so if Apple can somehow
10:21
streamline that, to make it
10:24
easier for listeners to support
10:24
creators financially, I think
10:29
that would be phenomenal. My
10:29
guess is that they're just gonna
10:32
go with the exclusive content
10:32
route they're gonna go with,
10:35
there's free Apple podcast
10:35
content. And then if you want
10:38
some of this really awesome
10:38
stuff that we're producing, you
10:41
can also pay for it or you can
10:41
bundle it together with was it
10:43
Apple one, or whatever they're
10:43
all encompassing. subscription
10:47
plan is, maybe they just throw
10:47
it in on top of that to try and
10:50
make that a bigger draw to sell
10:50
more iPhones.
10:55  Alban
Yeah, what if we draw an
10:55
analogy to the way that Apple
10:57
does games on the iPhone, that
10:57
if you are a developer, you can
11:02
work with Apple and have your
11:02
your game be part of their
11:06
arcade, Apple arcade. And so I
11:06
you get some sort of
11:11
compensation for I don't know
11:11
exactly how that works. But
11:14
everybody who has Apple arcade
11:14
gets access. And that's kind of
11:17
the exclusive route. So you
11:17
could see Apple producing a
11:21
bunch of podcasts with some
11:21
really big production companies,
11:24
making them exclusive to the
11:24
Apple Plus, it would be similar
11:29
to what we have had with
11:29
luminary. But there also could
11:34
be the way that Apple does the
11:34
App Store, which is just they
11:39
let any developer who wants put
11:39
their app there, they do, you
11:43
know, the human review, like
11:43
they already are doing for
11:46
podcast now. And then you can
11:46
sell your app through the app
11:51
store, then Apple takes 30% cut
11:51
of that. So you could have a,
11:56
you know, a way that you put
11:56
your show out there and said,
12:00
hey, it's $5 a month to get
12:00
access to my podcast, and Apple
12:03
goes, No problem, we'll put it
12:03
in front of everybody. And if
12:07
somebody subscribes, you know,
12:07
out of that $5 a month, you get
12:11
350. And we get 150, you could
12:11
see something like that, I would
12:15
be really excited about
12:15
something like that. Because it
12:18
would allow for podcasters to
12:18
experiment with, with all these
12:23
different ways of making money,
12:23
it's a little bit more difficult
12:27
if you're on a Patreon, or a
12:27
super cast, or all these other
12:30
things that are enabling people
12:30
that private podcasts. But it's
12:34
still a little bit more
12:34
difficult to get discovered
12:37
somewhere like Apple podcasts
12:37
because you can't be in those
12:40
directories anymore.
12:41  Kevin
I think in order for that
12:41
to work, I would hope that Apple
12:45
would go the same direction that
12:45
they did with like Apple Music.
12:49
I mean, you have the, you know,
12:49
the platform exclusivity
12:52
problem. So right now, Apple
12:52
podcasts only exists on iOS
12:56
devices. And so there's a huge
12:56
chunk of the world, how many is
13:00
it 70 80% of the world that runs
13:00
Android devices,
13:03  Alban
including Kevin now
13:03
actually, Kevin's got a backup.
13:06
He's got his Android testing
13:06
device.
13:09  Kevin
Yes, I've got lots of
13:09
devices, though. I've got like
13:11
three iOS devices, one Android
13:11
device now. And it's a great
13:15
device. And but that's the thing
13:15
is is like what they did with
13:18
Apple Music and Apple TV, when
13:18
they wanted to grow beyond their
13:22
own walled garden, they started
13:22
releasing those apps in Android
13:26
devices and allowing Apple TV to
13:26
run on LG TVs and Samsung TVs.
13:31
That would be a really great
13:31
move, because one of the
13:34
problems and I think we're gonna
13:34
talk about this a little bit
13:36
later, is like market share,
13:36
what devices are people using to
13:39
listen to podcasts, Apple's had
13:39
the lead for quite some time,
13:42
but Spotify has been catching up
13:42
rapidly. And part of the
13:45
struggle that Apple will not be
13:45
able to overcome until they move
13:47
to other devices is the fact
13:47
that Spotify is available
13:50
everywhere, on everything. I
13:50
just, you know, it's available
13:53
on my TV. It's available on my
13:53
Alexa, it's available on my home
13:57
pod. It's on my iOS device, and
13:57
my Android device. Apple podcast
14:00
is only available on Apple
14:00
stuff, iOS devices, and Apple
14:04
homepods. And so if they go the
14:04
same direction that they did
14:07
with Apple TV and Apple Music,
14:07
then I could see them rolling
14:12
out a payment solution for
14:12
creators. That would make sense.
14:15
Unless they make that jump
14:15
though, I don't see why people
14:18
would want to create content,
14:18
like premium content. And then
14:21
the only audience that would be
14:21
available to purchase it would
14:23
have to be using an iOS device.
14:23
That'd be pretty eliminating
14:26  Travis
an iOS device with Apple
14:26
podcasts that couldn't be using
14:29
a third party app, which is what
14:29
we all use, correct. None of us
14:32
necessarily listen on Apple
14:32
podcasts correct.
14:34  Alban
Now that this is all
14:34
totally speculative, because
14:38
Apple actually is for years not
14:38
shown a ton of interest in
14:41
trying to own the podcasting
14:41
space. They've kind of been this
14:45
like benevolent. You know,
14:45
they've taken care of the
14:49
podcasting space and helped it
14:49
quite a bit, especially by Apple
14:53
podcast, the API so that anybody
14:53
can get those 2 million podcasts
14:57
and add them to their own app.
14:57
They've done that forever. Even
14:59
if you were On Android, so, but
14:59
they've never used that in, turn
15:04
it into something to say, Hey,
15:04
now you have to use Apple
15:07
podcasts when they could have
15:07
done that for a long time. So
15:11
it's all totally speculative.
15:11
But if you release to the app
15:15
store, you know, you put an out
15:15
app out, you don't get access to
15:18
anybody on Android, you only get
15:18
access to the very small amount
15:22
of people who actually do use
15:22
iPhones. But a lot of developers
15:26
will release on Apple first, and
15:26
maybe then go to Android later,
15:30  Kevin
Apple can get away with
15:30
it away with the idea of
15:33
launching apps and creating apps
15:33
exclusively for their devices,
15:37
because they're their devices,
15:37
and they are apple. But at this
15:40
point, any third party developer
15:40
who releases on iOS first like
15:44
clubhouse, for example, they
15:44
take a lot of grief for that.
15:47
Like there's an expectation now
15:47
in the world that if you release
15:51
software, it should be
15:51
compatible with iOS and Android,
15:54
the two dominant mobile
15:54
platforms. And if not, then
15:57
that's I mean, there's nothing
15:57
necessarily wrong with it. It's
16:00
just not real nice. It's not
16:00
cool. Not only are you limiting
16:04
your market share, but you're
16:04
just legitimately excluding some
16:07
people, especially because Apple
16:07
has positioned themselves at the
16:10
top of the market. And so what
16:10
you're saying you're not
16:12
affluent enough to be able to
16:12
use my software, which is, it's
16:16
just a bad book.
16:17  Alban
From the apple
16:17
perspective, them actually
16:19
having this ability where you
16:19
can only listen to certain
16:23
podcasts in Apple podcasts,
16:23
helps them combat what Spotify
16:28
is doing. Right now. It's this,
16:28
you know, this war that they're,
16:33
they're getting their head to
16:33
head with Spotify, where
16:35
Spotify, it's like, Hey, we're
16:35
everywhere. And we get all the
16:39
podcasts on the open web. And
16:39
Apple podcast has for a long
16:42
time facilitated that helping
16:42
everyone get access to all
16:46
podcasts. And when luminary
16:46
started doing exclusive stuff,
16:51
like the whole, the whole
16:51
industry kind of was like, we
16:54
don't like that. But then when
16:54
Spotify started landing a lot of
16:59
big podcasts and pulling them
16:59
into the platform and saying
17:01
it's only available on Spotify,
17:01
everyone was kind of okay with
17:05
it way more than we were with
17:05
luminary for some reason. And so
17:09
now Apple's seeing their market
17:09
share diminish over time, mainly
17:14
because they have never said,
17:14
Hey, we're closing off the API,
17:19
we're actually gonna have our
17:19
own exclusives. And now there's
17:22
a lot of reasons for you to stay
17:22
with us. And so whilst if
17:26
Spotify is going to be doing the
17:26
exclusive game, it gets, I
17:29
imagine pretty hard for Apple to
17:29
not be tempted to do that. And
17:33
to say, Fine, we're we're going
17:33
to get some Joe Rogan level
17:36
people over here exclusive, so
17:36
that it minimum, everybody is
17:41
kind of carrying around two apps
17:41
for podcasts, rather than
17:45
allowing Spotify to come in, you
17:45
know, 10 years after Apple did
17:49
all this work, and kind of scoop
17:49
up the whole industry.
17:53  Travis
They sent me an email.
17:53
Tell us Alban, are you signing
17:56
an exclusive with Apple
17:56
podcasts, and all this stuff?
17:59  Alban
I, it just seems to be
17:59
like, I don't know if they'll
18:02
ever do it. Because they've had
18:02
opportunities to do this stuff
18:04
for a long time. They haven't.
18:04
But it just makes too much sense
18:09
to me that they could throw a
18:09
couple of these things out
18:12
there. Not put a ton of effort
18:12
behind it. And it could really
18:16
slow Spotify eyes, kind of
18:16
solidifying their position as
18:20
the number one app because this
18:20
is a good segue maybe to our
18:23
next section. Spotify looks like
18:23
it's going to be the number one
18:27
app at least across all the
18:27
Buzzsprout platform relatively
18:32
soon. Is that a good segue for
18:32
that exact point, Travis?
18:39  Travis
Alvin, you read the
18:39
outline so wonderfully? That is
18:42
exactly what the next thing
18:42
we're gonna talk about. Yeah. So
18:44
we've noticed this gap closing
18:44
for quite a while, especially
18:47
since November, where we made a
18:47
distinction and how we counted
18:54
Apple podcast plays, we were
18:54
getting a lot of play data, like
18:58
legitimate downloads from
18:58
podcast apps and players that
19:01
was like 95%, the same as what
19:01
we get from Apple podcasts. And
19:06
so for the longest time, we had
19:06
said, well, that's probably
19:08
Apple podcasts. But then we
19:08
said, You know what, Apple
19:11
podcast always looks exactly
19:11
like this. So we really need to
19:15
identify this is a separate
19:15
group of apps that are almost
19:19
Apple podcasts. And since then,
19:19
the gap has really shrunk. And
19:23
then over the last five months
19:23
or so, Spotify is really close
19:26
the gap growing at a rate of
19:26
more than three times what Apple
19:30
is at least on a percentage
19:30
basis.
19:32  Alban
And I think that's been
19:32
the entire reason why they've
19:35
done these exclusive deals. If
19:35
you really like Joe, Joe Biden,
19:41
if you really like Joe Biden,
19:41
hosted on
19:43  Travis
Buzzsprout hosted,
19:45  Alban
if you really like Joe
19:45
Rogan, you need to be on
19:47
Spotify. And so if you're on
19:47
Apple podcasts, and you're like,
19:51
well, I love the UI, I've always
19:51
used the spell, just switch over
19:53
to Spotify, and I'll re
19:53
subscribe to my shows there.
19:56
There's no negative. There's no
19:56
loss for me except now I can
20:00
Access to the new Joe Rogan
20:00
episodes. And that's the whole
20:03
reason why they've signed
20:03
exclusive like that, to get
20:06
people to move over. And those
20:06
aren't just, hey, we gained a
20:10
little bit of market share, but
20:10
you actually took it from your
20:12
biggest competitor. And I think
20:12
over time, we're seeing more and
20:16
more people moving to Spotify.
20:16
Spotify is pushing really,
20:20
really hard. In a lot of Central
20:20
and South America. A lot of
20:26
Spanish speaking country,
20:26
Spotify is dominant. And so I
20:31
think that, you know, I don't
20:31
know, it just seems so it seems
20:35
like so obvious to me, the Apple
20:35
will try to slow this progress.
20:39
Whether or not it's even big
20:39
enough to be interesting to
20:42
them. It remains to be seen.
20:45  Kevin
So Travis made, he did
20:45
some math and made a prediction.
20:48
When do you think Spotify is
20:48
going to overtake Apple podcasts
20:52
as the number one listening app
20:52
across the Buzzsprout? platform?
20:55  Travis
April. So within the
20:55
next month,
20:59  Kevin
so you think at the end
20:59
of April, once we publish our
21:01
April numbers, Spotify will
21:01
overtake apple?
21:03  Travis
Yeah, if the trends
21:03
continue the way they have the
21:06
last five months, then I mean,
21:06
it's been pretty consistent.
21:10
month over month,
21:12  Alban
it's gonna be close. I
21:12
think when we publish the march
21:14
numbers in a week, you know,
21:14
we've seen, at least across all
21:19
Buzzsprout, Spotify gains a
21:19
couple percent on average. And,
21:26
you know, we're, it's gonna be
21:26
close. I think you're right. I
21:28
think that when we publish April
21:28
numbers, like very beginning of
21:33
May, it'll probably be number
21:33
one.
21:35  Travis
Now, one thing that
21:35
would be interesting to see, and
21:38
this isn't data we have
21:38
available right now for the
21:40
episode. But it would be
21:40
interesting to see is the
21:42
correlation between the growth
21:42
of Spotify plays on Buzzsprout
21:46
hosted podcasts, with the growth
21:46
of Spotify as a whole with their
21:52
user numbers, to see how much of
21:52
that acceleration is from people
21:56
shifting from other apps to
21:56
listen to exclusive content,
21:58
versus people simply signing up
21:58
for Spotify, and podcast being
22:02
more prevalent presence on their
22:02
homepage, I think I read
22:05
somewhere that they're going to
22:05
redo their homepage soon on
22:08
their app to feature podcast
22:08
more prominently. And so I
22:11
wonder how much of it too, is
22:11
simply them introducing podcast
22:14
to a whole new group of people.
22:14
And unless you know that Apple
22:17
podcasts exist, you're not
22:17
seeking it out to go and listen
22:20
to a podcast.
22:21  Kevin
Now one of the things
22:21
they just Spotify just did an
22:23
event. And one of the things
22:23
they talked about in their event
22:25
is that they do want to provide
22:25
a way for people to support
22:30
their podcasters through the
22:30
Spotify app. They didn't give
22:33
any details about how they plan
22:33
to do that. But one of the
22:36
questions I had about that was
22:36
like how willing do we think the
22:39
general public is going to be to
22:39
do that, if I'm listening in an
22:42
app, like overcast or pocket
22:42
casts an app that I get for
22:45
free, and I see an opportunity
22:45
to donate to support a
22:49
podcaster, I might be inclined
22:49
to give them $1 or two, or you
22:53
know, like the the podcast
22:53
namespace in the podcast index
22:56
is pushing this this value model
22:56
where you can your using
23:00
cryptocurrency, to be able to
23:00
hook up one of your wallets and
23:04
be able to stream money to your
23:04
podcasters. That's still a
23:07
little ways off in terms of
23:07
something like that becoming
23:09
mainstream. But my point is, is
23:09
that if I'm using a free app,
23:12
I'm already not not paying for
23:12
it, I have an opportunity to
23:14
support a creator, I might be
23:14
inclined to do that. I'm
23:17
curious, though, what happens
23:17
like psychologically in the mind
23:19
of somebody who says, I'm
23:19
already paying $15 a month you
23:23
Spotify? Now you want me to
23:23
donate to the creator? Like, why
23:26
wouldn't you just take some of
23:26
the $15 I'm giving to you and
23:29
give it to the creator? Like
23:29
that's what you do with music
23:31
artists? Why wouldn't that apply
23:31
to podcasters as well. But it
23:35
sounds like that's not what
23:35
they're doing. It sounds like
23:36
they want to give the ability
23:36
for you to donate above and
23:38
beyond. And I'm just I'm curious
23:38
to see, how does that play out?
23:44  Alban
I mean, at two different
23:44
points there. I mean, one, if
23:46
they make it so that it's more
23:46
like a Patreon thing, where you
23:49
support a creator. And so you
23:49
get access to bonus content,
23:53
that kind of does all of a
23:53
Spotify wants to happen,
23:56
creators are compensated for
23:56
their podcast content, Spotify
24:01
doesn't have to actually give
24:01
them any of the money, Spotify
24:04
might even be able to keep a
24:04
little bit of that cut. And it
24:09
only is available inside of
24:09
Spotify app. So you actually
24:12
have to move over if you want to
24:12
get the bonus content. So
24:16
there's like four ways there
24:16
that it helps Spotify if they
24:19
say it's for bonus above and
24:19
beyond. But then look at what
24:24
Twitter is about to launch with
24:24
super followers. Look at what's
24:28
happening on Twitch, where you
24:28
can subscribe to channels, so
24:32
you could watch anyway, but you
24:32
get like more access to the
24:35
streamer.
24:37  Kevin
Right? But these are the
24:37
platforms that you're comparing
24:39
here are not pay platforms. I
24:39
can get on Twitch for free.
24:43
already. I can get on Twitter
24:43
for free already. And then
24:46
there's ways for me to buy
24:46
premium content that the
24:49
majority of the money that I pay
24:49
goes directly to the Creator who
24:52
I'm interested in supporting.
24:52
Couldn't
24:53  Alban
that cut both ways
24:53
though? Like, yes, I'm not
24:55
paying for Twitch and now it
24:55
doesn't feel weird that I'm
24:58
paying a couple dollars. to
24:58
support my Creator, because I,
25:03
you know, if I like some
25:03
streamer, I want to give them a
25:05
few dollars. But Spotify already
25:05
has my credit card for my music
25:10
subscription. And so it's just
25:10
like, hey, do you want to click
25:14
this button and add $3 a month
25:14
so that you can get access to
25:17
the exclusive episodes of this
25:17
podcast you like, you know,
25:21
that's pretty compelling that
25:21
you could just click a button,
25:24
and all of a sudden, you know,
25:24
it's just added on to my normal
25:27
monthly Spotify bill.
25:28  Kevin
I think about it like the
25:28
you guys have, what's the Disney
25:31
TV service called
25:32  Travis
Disney plus,
25:33  Kevin
Disney plus? You
25:34  Travis
know, we both have
25:34
children under the age of six,
25:36
right? Yeah, well,
25:37  Kevin
I have. I have, as my
25:37
kids are Marvel fans, but I paid
25:41
whatever it is, I'm agitated,
25:41
because just a couple weeks ago,
25:44
some movie came out on Disney
25:44
plus, that was like Disney plus
25:46
exclusive. But then I had to pay
25:46
an extra $20 to watch it.
25:52  Alban
What did you pay for it?
25:54  Kevin
I'm probably
25:57  Alban
I love here, like,
25:59
your point is, it was annoying,
25:59
but I did it.
26:03  Kevin
A small price to pay for
26:03
quiet kids?
26:06  Alban
Is it more likely you
26:06
would pay for it through Disney
26:08
plus, or that you'd be like, Oh,
26:08
I hertz Twitch, which I don't
26:13
use, I could go over to twitch
26:13
and I could sign up and pay
26:17
money to do this whole process
26:17
to get that movie, I think that
26:20
it's just being there you can
26:20
go. It's annoying, but click
26:23  Kevin
that it's it I don't
26:23
know, it just feels weird that
26:26
not only have you know the
26:26
powers that be, they've
26:29
convinced us all to subscribe to
26:29
monthly services now. But now
26:33
it's also starting to become the
26:33
norm to pay additional fees on
26:35
top of your monthly
26:35
subscription. And if that's
26:38
what's gonna happen in
26:38
podcasting, like on the Spotify
26:41
side, I just feel like, golly,
26:41
you know, we just want to be
26:45
able to get a few dollars to
26:45
creators to support them in what
26:48
they're doing. And I don't like
26:48
all these middlemen, who just
26:51
seem to be taking more and more
26:51
of the cut, I want to be able to
26:53
get money directly from my
26:53
pocket to the pocket of the
26:55
Creator, without having a
26:55
middleman in the middle, taking
26:59
not only maybe a monthly
26:59
recurring subscription fee, but
27:01
then asking me to give on top of
27:01
that, and then they're probably
27:03
gonna take a cut of that
27:04  Alban
all that to say,
27:04
something might be coming. It's
27:08
kind of ranting about how much
27:08
we dislike the possible ways
27:11
that it could work.
27:15  Travis
So we got some cool
27:15
questions from the Buzzsprout
27:17
podcast community on Facebook,
27:17
that people asked if we would
27:21
talk about them here on the
27:21
show. And so we will do that.
27:24
And if we get to your question,
27:24
then we'll definitely get you a
27:25
shout out as well. So the first
27:25
question comes from Crystal,
27:30
which is essentially how do you
27:30
keep from pod fading? How do you
27:33
how do you stay motivated, stay
27:33
engaged, you know, keep that
27:37
that zeal and that vigor and
27:37
that passion that you start with
27:40
and sustain it? Through that
27:40
level of you know, getting past
27:44
the honeymoon period. Now you're
27:44
in the grind. How do you how do
27:47
you stay motivated? How do you
27:47
keep podcasting?
27:49  Alban
I mean, Travis, you and
27:49
I, we just did a interview with
27:53
Kate Casey, who does reality
27:53
life with Kate Casey. She's done
27:56
like 700 interviews, over almost
27:56
350 podcast episodes. And she
28:03
does that podcast, she has big
28:03
family. She has like so many.
28:08
She wrote a book, she's doing a
28:08
TV show. And I was like, how do
28:11
you do all this stuff? And her
28:11
answer was, if you really love
28:15
it, and it actually is what
28:15
gives you life and what you
28:18
enjoy, it's easy to keep doing
28:18
it. And if it gets to be a
28:22
grind, it's probably because
28:22
it's not actually the thing that
28:25
you love doing. And I think a
28:25
lot of times when podcasts pod
28:30
fade, it may be because you want
28:30
maybe some of the results of
28:36
this podcast, but you probably
28:36
weren't super into making the
28:39
podcast along the way. And I
28:39
think that's okay, if you know,
28:44
so maybe I'm saying some
28:44
podcasts, it's okay to pod fate.
28:48
Some you need to look at it and
28:48
go, Okay, I like this part of
28:51
it. I don't like that part.
28:51
Maybe I outsource part of it. Or
28:55
maybe I transitioned the podcast
28:55
from it used to be about dogs.
29:01
And maybe it's more just about
29:01
hobbies or something I don't
29:04
know, like you kind of change
29:04
what it's about shift it so that
29:07
you're talking more about what
29:07
you're into, and not what you
29:10
feel like you should be
29:10
podcasting about. I mean, those
29:13
are kind of some of my thoughts.
29:13
If you're worried that you're
29:16
about to fade, it's probably
29:16
something about you, you're
29:20
telling yourself, I'm not super
29:20
into this, how do I pivot it
29:25
into something that I'm actually
29:25
really excited about?
29:27  Travis
Yeah, I mean, that's one
29:27
of the the silver linings of
29:30
when you first launch a podcast
29:30
is that you don't have a massive
29:33
audience yet, right? And so you
29:33
can make like a super hard
29:35
pivot. And say before, I'm
29:35
talking about dogs, now I'm
29:38
talking about drones. And you
29:38
know, it's like accidental tech
29:42
podcast, right? They started out
29:42
as what like a car, like an
29:44
antique car podcast. And then
29:44
they're like, well, we just
29:48
start talking about text. And
29:48
now we're an apple review
29:50
podcast. Is that true?
29:52  Kevin
Yeah, that's why they
29:52
call it accidental tech podcast.
29:55
They were talking about cars for
29:55
30 minutes, and then they would
29:57
always since they're all tech
29:57
guys, they always spiral into
29:59
technical And the early feedback
29:59
they got from their listeners
30:03
was like, the technology stuff
30:03
is actually a lot more
30:05
interesting because we know you
30:05
love cars, but you don't know
30:07
enough about them to really be
30:07
doing the show. And they're
30:10
like, yeah, we should probably
30:10
do a tech podcast and talk about
30:13
cars at the end. Because we know
30:13
a lot less about that.
30:15  Alban
Wow, that's so
30:15
interesting. I mean, okay, that
30:18
totally validates what we're
30:18
saying. Yeah.
30:21  Travis
So you can make a hard
30:21
pivot. And still, you know,
30:24
years down the road have like a
30:24
top rated podcast in your your
30:27
new niche. Like, that's totally
30:27
possible. I think I think
30:30
another reason that people pod
30:30
fade is they, you know, without
30:34
knowing it, bite off more than
30:34
they could chew at the
30:36
beginning, whether it's
30:36
publishing more frequently than
30:39
they really have the bandwidth
30:39
to do, or the level of
30:42
production quality they're
30:42
trying to achieve, especially
30:44
early on, as they're just
30:44
learning how to edit podcast for
30:47
the first time is pretty
30:47
ambitious. And so you, you put
30:51
together a couple episodes, and
30:51
you think, Wow, is this what
30:53
it's gonna be like every single
30:53
week to keep this up, and you
30:59
have full permission if you need
30:59
it. This this episode I'm giving
31:03
to you right now you have full
31:03
permission to scale back the
31:06
ambition for your podcast, if
31:06
it's requiring too much of you,
31:10
if you're not able to stay
31:10
consistent with the schedule you
31:13
committed to, it is totally
31:13
fine. You can drop back to
31:16
releasing episodes every other
31:16
week, and, you know, be slouches
31:18
like us. Like you don't have to
31:18
publish a new episode. Every
31:22
week.
31:22  Alban
There's two reasons I
31:22
guess why you pod fate. One is
31:24
that you're not really loving it
31:24
anymore. And in that way pivot
31:27
and see how if something else
31:27
works, but what Travis is saying
31:30
is like, if you're just running
31:30
into a wall, because it's a lot
31:34
of work, relieve the pressure on
31:34
yourself a little bit, say, I'm
31:37
going to go to every two weeks.
31:37
One thing I would really push
31:41
for though, is try to hit like
31:41
20 episode mark, because one
31:47
thing that can happen early on
31:47
is your you have to figure out
31:52
all the tech, you're trying to
31:52
figure out editing, you're
31:54
trying to figure out all this
31:54
stuff, and that is so draining.
31:57
And that can be really hard.
31:57
Once you hit 20 episodes, that's
32:01
all gotten so much easier. And
32:01
you found your rhythm. And
32:05
you've actually built up at
32:05
least a small core audience of
32:08
fans. You know, it could be 20
32:08
good episodes before you really
32:13
start getting people actually
32:13
responding and leaving your
32:17
reviews and stuff. So I really
32:17
encourage people like try to
32:21
just hit that 20 episode mark,
32:21
and things will have changed so
32:25
much by then,
32:26  Kevin
yeah, I would say this,
32:26
as well find ways to connect
32:29
with your audience, whether you
32:29
only are getting you know, 10 or
32:32
15 downloads per episode, or
32:32
your you know, your little bit
32:36
higher, you're up at the 50 to
32:36
100. If you make a compelling
32:41
statement somewhere in your
32:41
podcast somewhere in your show
32:43
notes, if you give people away
32:43
to sign up for an email
32:46
newsletter, some ways for them
32:46
to reach out to you to connect
32:49
with you to follow you on social
32:49
media sites, let them know the
32:51
social media sites that you're
32:51
on, try to find out the social
32:54
media sites they're on try to
32:54
make connections with the people
32:56
who are listening to your
32:56
content that can go a long way
32:59
of making you feel like the
32:59
message that you're putting out
33:02
to the world is reaching someone
33:02
somewhere and and hopefully
33:06
having the impact that you hope
33:06
it does. So sometimes it feels
33:09
as you're you're podcasting for
33:09
a little while it feels like
33:12
you're just sending these
33:12
messages out into the universe,
33:14
but they're not landing
33:14
anywhere. They're not making an
33:16
impact or not helping anybody.
33:16
And the reality is, is that you
33:20
can only have 10 listeners of
33:20
your show. And you could be
33:21
making an impact in those 10
33:21
people. But you don't know that
33:24
like because you don't have a
33:24
feedback loop. So try to figure
33:27
out a way that you can get in
33:27
contact with some of the people
33:29
who are listening to your show.
33:29
Reviews is one way social media
33:33
is another way email newsletters
33:33
another way. Just telling them,
33:36
hey, here's my email address for
33:36
the show. In my podcast, if
33:39
you're listening, if you'd liked
33:39
anything, if you have any
33:40
questions, I would love it if
33:40
you drop me an email, and be
33:42
honest with him, say London and
33:42
here's the thing. I've done 10
33:44
episodes, I'm feeling a little
33:44
discouraged. Like if this is
33:47
helping anybody if no one's
33:47
hearing it, like I would love to
33:49
get some feedback. That's
33:49
totally fine. Your audience
33:51
would love that. And I would
33:51
encourage you to do it. There
33:54
was this old episode, I never
33:54
watched Big Bang Theory very
33:57
often. But there was somehow
33:57
somebody shared it with me.
34:00
There's an episode where Sheldon
34:00
had a podcast, it was called
34:03
like fun with flags or something
34:03
like that. And he was in this
34:06
exact stage, he was feeling very
34:06
discouraged that no one was
34:08
listening to fun with flags, fun
34:08
with flags, whatever the name of
34:11
the show was. And he was going
34:11
to cancel it. So he put out an
34:14
episode saying this is the last
34:14
episode. And this will be the
34:16
end of the podcast. And then he
34:16
got one email back. And then he
34:20
like he was so moved by that one
34:20
email, he had to keep doing one
34:23
with flags. And so even if
34:23
there's one person like that can
34:26
be the difference between you
34:26
knowing like what you're doing
34:29
is making an impact on somebody
34:29
who can keep you going. So I saw
34:32
a question on the Facebook group
34:32
as well. And I have no idea how
34:35
to answer this. I'm hoping you
34:35
guys do so Adrian asked, How do
34:38
you market a non interview
34:38
fiction podcast? either one of
34:42
you guys know how to do that?
34:43  Travis
When I think about
34:43
answering this question. It
34:46
really comes down to the
34:46
fundamentals of marketing, any
34:50
kind of creative work, right?
34:50
You're trying to put what you do
34:54
in front of the right people
34:54
online and give them a
34:58
compelling reason to to take
34:58
some sort of action. Alright,
35:01
that's that's just how marketing
35:01
works. And so, so you just got
35:04
to think, okay, who are the
35:04
people that really love this
35:08
show who really love my podcast,
35:08
and maybe you do what Kevin was
35:12
just talking about, you have
35:12
them reach out to you via email,
35:14
you connect with them, you start
35:14
your own Facebook group or
35:17
membership platform, so you can
35:17
interact with your listeners,
35:21
and get a sense of the type of
35:21
person that's really interested
35:24
in what you discuss. And then
35:24
what you do is you think, Okay,
35:28
well, where else? Does this type
35:28
of person hang out on the
35:33
internet? Like, what are their
35:33
other interests? What are
35:35
overlapping interests. And so
35:35
you're not necessarily looking
35:39
for people that listen to other
35:39
podcasts just like yours. But
35:43
you're looking for other hubs
35:43
online, where your ideal
35:47
listener is kind of already
35:47
congregating. And then make
35:50
yourself known there. Now, as
35:50
far as you know, kind of
35:55
modifying some of the best
35:55
practices for marketing yourself
35:58
on as a podcaster. Certainly, if
35:58
you have an interview show, one
36:02
great way is you can bring on
36:02
guests to your podcast and
36:05
leverage their audience to grow
36:05
yours. But for a non interview
36:08
podcast, you can still go on
36:08
other shows, you can still go on
36:12
other podcasts that have related
36:12
topics, where maybe you're not
36:15
sharing the story from your
36:15
podcast episode. But maybe
36:18
you're sharing your technique,
36:18
maybe you're sharing your
36:20
experience, maybe you're sharing
36:20
something else from your life,
36:23
and then pitching your podcast
36:23
as a part of being a contributor
36:27
on somebody else's show. So
36:27
you're just trying to think
36:29
about how to modify the
36:29
strategies that are currently
36:32
working for interview based
36:32
podcasts to find the target
36:36
audience of people, you know,
36:36
like your show, and then making
36:39
yourself known there and giving
36:39
them a compelling reason to come
36:41
and check your show out as well.
36:43  Alban
Alright, so there's a
36:43
question in the group from I
36:46
think this is a page or a
36:46
podcast, the books in the lie?
36:50
How do you grow and establish
36:50
podcast compared to a new
36:53
podcast? And so we just talked a
36:53
little bit about, you know,
36:58
fiction podcast, but when you
36:58
hit this intermediate level,
37:03
let's call it somewhere between
37:03
like 101,000 listeners, what are
37:08
the best techniques to grow your
37:08
podcast? So I've got a lot of
37:11
answers for this, but I'll open
37:11
it up to both of you first, what
37:16
do you think how should they
37:16
grow their podcast? Alright, so
37:22
with no answers, I
37:24  Kevin
was the one where I said,
37:24
I don't really know but I think
37:28
you're pointing them to your
37:28
Jordan Harbinger interview would
37:30
be a great place to start.
37:31  Alban
Excellent idea, Kevin. I
37:31
love that. Alright, so there's a
37:35
great interview. What was the
37:35
name of the interview that you
37:38
thought was awesome, Kevin, that
37:38
would give them some ideas.
37:41  Kevin
The Jordan Harbinger
37:41
interview Buzzsprout
37:43
conversationally interviewed
37:44  Alban
him. Alban,
37:47  Kevin
head of marketing for
37:47
Buzzsprout. And one of my
37:50
favorite interviewers,
37:51  Travis
and hands down.
37:53  Alban
Not one of his favorite
37:53
co hosts right now. Yeah, I
37:58
would point people to that
37:58
interviewed Jordan has done a
38:01
really incredible job growing
38:01
the Jordan Harbinger show. And
38:06
so he said, like 8 million
38:06
downloads a month right now. And
38:10
he just talks a lot about the
38:10
actual tactics that he used to
38:14
grow show to the ones that he's
38:14
using our he's interviewed, he's
38:19
going on other podcasts and
38:19
buying ads for his show. So you
38:25
could definitely see that being
38:25
a growth channel for any
38:27
podcaster. It's just, it's, it's
38:27
expensive. And time, it costs a
38:31
lot of time for you to go reach
38:31
out, find a podcast that's
38:36
interested, and then getting
38:36
them to run ads for your
38:39
podcast, that does take quite a
38:39
while. But remember, if it was
38:44
easy to do that everyone would
38:44
be doing it and the cost in
38:48
money would be much more
38:48
expensive. So while we would
38:53
kind of wish there was just a
38:53
Google ads, turn it on and get a
38:57
bunch of new listeners, if it
38:57
was that easy, everyone would be
39:00
doing it and it'd be really
39:00
expensive. So that's why it's
39:03
undervalued right now. Other
39:03
things to do is like Travis
39:08
said, anywhere you can plug into
39:08
a community that's interested in
39:11
the same thing. So that could be
39:11
creating your own community. For
39:16
a long time. we debated this
39:16
internally, Kevin and I were
39:19
Kevin was like, we need to start
39:19
our own Facebook group. And I
39:22
was like, oh, there's a bunch of
39:22
other good ones. Why don't we
39:24
just like contribute to other
39:24
ones more. And by starting our
39:28
own group, we now have a space
39:28
where these questions come from,
39:33
and where people give us
39:33
feedback on Buzzsprout. And we
39:35
have a lot of people who
39:35
understand the app and give us
39:39
good feedback in everything
39:39
we're doing with Buzzsprout. So
39:43
by creating our community, some
39:43
people join the community well
39:47
before they ever listened to
39:47
this podcast, or they sign up
39:50
for Buzzsprout now, and we never
39:50
really at least I did not expect
39:54
that to be a growth channel for
39:54
us. And now it has become one
39:58
and so I think If your podcast
39:58
is a intermediate podcast, find
40:03
a way to build a community for
40:03
your show, I think one really
40:07
fun thing to do would be to get
40:07
on clubhouse. And to do rooms
40:12
after an episode comes out with
40:12
your audience. You could do that
40:16
in Twitter spaces or Instagram
40:16
Live or something wherever is
40:21
best for your audience, maybe
40:21
start a Facebook group, maybe
40:25
start a group in something like
40:25
circle, anywhere that you can
40:29
build more of a community feels
40:29
better, because you want people
40:32
to feel like they're part of the
40:32
podcast, and then they have an
40:35
incentive to tell other people
40:35
about it. Hey, I'm part of this
40:38
amazing group, for this awesome
40:38
show. I love you should check it
40:42
out, we have the best
40:42
conversations, it's so much fun.
40:46
And I really connect with the
40:46
hosts, make people part of the
40:50
process, and then they will tell
40:50
more people about it. And if
40:54
there are established
40:54
communities already out there
40:56
dropping in saying, you know,
40:56
answering people's questions
41:00
with really good answers, and
41:00
then say I, I actually talked
41:04
about this quite a bit more in
41:04
this podcast episode and
41:06
dropping a link. You know,
41:06
people really appreciate it when
41:09
you help them. And you show that
41:09
the podcast is probably
41:13
something that they would really
41:13
enjoy.
41:15  Travis
Yeah, I think those are
41:15
all really great tips. Alvin, I
41:17
mean, the only thing that I
41:17
would add, to kind of give some
41:21
more food for thought is just to
41:21
remember that, you know, for all
41:24
the strategies and tactics and
41:24
tips and hacks for how to grow
41:28
your podcast, it's still a word
41:28
of mouth
41:31
platform,
41:32
podcasting is still driven by
41:32
peer to peer recommendations. I
41:36
mean, I don't know about you
41:36
guys. But I would say 95% of the
41:39
podcasts that are in my library,
41:39
and overcast, are there because
41:43
somebody told me I would like
41:43
it. Not because I was just
41:47
browsing through a list, or, you
41:47
know, randomly pop it around and
41:51
listen to 15 minute interviews
41:51
with people I didn't know. It
41:54
started with someone saying,
41:54
Hey, you know, like, remember
41:57
when we all hopped on the rabbit
41:57
hole? Because I think was it you
41:59
Albin or Tom that like jumped on
41:59
that podcast. And then quickly,
42:03
everyone on the team, listen to
42:03
it. Like, that's how podcasts
42:07
grow. It's empowering your
42:07
listeners to share your podcast
42:11
with people that they know would
42:11
be interested in it. And so if
42:13
you can give your listeners
42:13
clear call to actions and
42:17
encouragement to do that. And,
42:17
you know, reinforce that by
42:21
giving them shout outs, or
42:21
however you do that, any way
42:23
that you can make it easier for
42:23
your listeners to share your
42:27
podcast with their friends that
42:27
will help you grow, whether
42:29
that's having a clean domain,
42:29
that redirects to a podcast
42:34
website that you can listen to
42:34
no matter what kind of app
42:36
you're on. If it's making
42:36
yourself available on social
42:38
media, whatever that is reduce
42:38
the friction of being able to
42:42
share your podcasts with other
42:42
people. And that will ultimately
42:45
help with
42:45  Kevin
any strategy that you
42:45
use. And you know, you could use
42:48
that dynamic content post roll
42:48
feature is a non intrusive way
42:52
to put a message out to your
42:52
loyal listeners and just say
42:56
something like, Hey, I hope you
42:56
enjoyed today's episode, I hope
42:58
you enjoyed all the episodes
42:58
that I put out. And if you have
43:01
one thing that would be a huge
43:01
help to me, would be just to
43:04
take five seconds right now and
43:04
just think of somebody in your
43:06
life that might enjoy what you
43:06
just heard. And if even when you
43:09
think of that person, if you
43:09
could just share, you know,
43:12
shoot him a text with Lincoln's
43:12
podcast, it'd be a massive help
43:14
trying to grow my audience. And
43:14
the more people that listen
43:17
allows me to keep doing what I
43:17
love even more, and take the
43:20
message further. So thanks so
43:20
much. Thanks for listening. And
43:22
you're out, you can drop that on
43:22
the back of all of your episodes
43:25
overnight, run it for 30 days,
43:25
see if it has any impact. Man, I
43:28  Alban
love that one, Kevin,
43:28
because the ask for Apple
43:32
podcast reviews, and all these
43:32
other calls to action. While
43:36
they're all good, they aren't
43:36
going to really lead to you
43:39
getting a lot of new listeners.
43:39
But saying, hey, the only way
43:43
podcasts really grow is through
43:43
word of mouth. And so what I
43:47
would truly appreciate is if
43:47
you'd send it to one friend,
43:50
everyone's going to kind of be
43:50
like, man, I love this podcast.
43:52
I've actually been listening to
43:52
it for years, maybe I should
43:55
just recommend it to one or two
43:55
people. And yeah, I think that's
44:00
a great way to grow.
44:02  Kevin
Alright, last one, and
44:02
then we got to go. I know we're
44:04
coming up on an hour here. But
44:04
we've said this before. And
44:06
we'll just keep saying it
44:06
because it works really well.
44:09
And that is you need to get on
44:09
other podcasts as much as
44:12
possible. All the top podcasters
44:12
are on other shows all the time.
44:16
Like one of the most recent
44:16
podcasts that I've just
44:18
subscribed to is called that
44:18
will never work. It's with Mark
44:21
Randolph. He's the co founder of
44:21
Netflix. And I heard about him
44:24
by listening to him on Tim
44:24
Ferriss. He was a guest on the
44:26
Tim Ferriss show told the great
44:26
story about how they ran the
44:29
Netflix startup. And it was
44:29
fascinating. And now he's doing
44:32
his own podcast. And so of
44:32
course, I went over there and
44:34
subscribe to that and I'm
44:34
enjoying that show as well. So
44:37
that is another great way to
44:37
grow your podcast is get as many
44:41
opportunities as come your way
44:41
or you can go out and seek them
44:44
out, jump on other podcasts as
44:44
much as possible.
44:46  Alban
Alright, so the final
44:46
question, this one stuck out to
44:48
me. What's your favorite part of
44:48
working at Buzzsprout from when
44:52
Charles and I think that this is
44:52
a good question for us now
44:57
because we have a job. job offer
44:57
a job posting out there for
45:03
somebody to join the support
45:03
team. And there might be another
45:06
job posting coming in a couple
45:06
of weeks. But what do you guys
45:10
think I've got some answers on
45:10
this. But what are your favorite
45:12
parts of working at Buzzsprout?
45:14  Travis
I mean, obviously
45:14
working for Kevin, that's that's
45:17
the that's the correct answer,
45:17
right?
45:18  Kevin
Yeah. Yep. I think that's
45:18
pretty much there your favorite?
45:23
Like, what's the number one
45:23
answer, then? Yeah, you should
45:26
probably go with that one. All
45:26
right, cool. So
45:27  Travis
now that my job security
45:27
is intact, I would say that my
45:31
favorite part of working at
45:31
Buzzsprout is is simply, it's
45:34
refreshing to work at a company
45:34
that really does care about
45:39
their customers that really does
45:39
care about the people that use
45:42
their platform. Because I've
45:42
certainly worked at companies in
45:45
the past, where that was not the
45:45
case. And there's like this
45:48
sharp disconnect between what
45:48
you do and who benefits from it.
45:52
And it's just refreshing to know
45:52
that every single time we roll
45:55
out a new feature, every time we
45:55
make a video release a podcast
45:59
episode like this, it's all
45:59
coming from that singular focus
46:02
of how do we empower and equip
46:02
our podcasters to be successful.
46:06
And so it's just really
46:06
refreshing that like, the whole
46:08
team is unified around that,
46:08
that charge that mission. And,
46:14
and I think it's, it's evident
46:14
in all the things that we do,
46:17
whether it's how we roll out new
46:17
features, or the free content
46:21
that we create, simply because
46:21
we want you guys to be
46:24
successful. It just makes me
46:24
excited, when I wake up knowing
46:28
that I get to make resources,
46:28
they're going to be helpful for
46:30
people that really align with
46:30
our mission. So that's, that's
46:32
probably my favorite part.
46:34  Alban
I feel like I've gotten
46:34
to shape a lot of my job. When I
46:36
started at Buzzsprout, six and a
46:36
half years ago, I was doing
46:41
support, some marketing and some
46:41
legal work all combined into one
46:45
job role. And new, the marketing
46:45
was my favorite part of all of
46:50
it. And so as we grew, got to
46:50
move more into the marketing
46:54
side, and then build out a
46:54
marketing team, and have gotten
46:58
to decide, you know, kind of
46:58
like decide. They may not
47:02
decide, but like shaped my role
47:02
in what I do day to day. And
47:06
then a lot of like ability to
47:06
shape what each individual day
47:11
looks like. So today, I, you
47:11
know, went and worked at a
47:14
coffee shop in the morning, and
47:14
then rode my skateboard over and
47:18
ate lunch somewhere and
47:18
skateboard at home and did this
47:20
interview. And, like, I never
47:20
got to do that, obviously, when
47:24
I was practicing law or any
47:24
other job that I did before
47:27
this. And it's fun to be able to
47:27
have a job where you can work
47:31
remotely part of the time, maybe
47:31
when COVID is kind of toned
47:37
down, we may be able to go back
47:37
into the office when we want to.
47:40
But it's just great to have the
47:40
flexibility to do different
47:44
things so that you can get your
47:44
best work done, wherever that
47:48
would be. So maybe at a coffee
47:48
shop for you. But often for me,
47:52
it's working late at night,
47:52
totally alone. And then I
47:56
personally really like we
47:56
haven't had at least on
47:59
Buzzsprout. Since I started six
47:59
and a half years ago, nobody has
48:05
left the team. So we haven't had
48:05
a single person quit. And we
48:10
haven't fired anybody. One
48:10
person was full time and then
48:14
went part time. But like
48:14
nobody's leaving the team. And
48:19
so that is been really nice.
48:19
Because you get to know people
48:24
and you get to kind of be build
48:24
these friendships. And it's
48:28
really a lot easier when Travis
48:28
and I and Kevin and I we all
48:33
know each other's like quirks
48:33
and like, how to work well with
48:38
each other. traveled. We're
48:38
working together for like three
48:40
years, it's so much easier when
48:40
you've worked for someone for
48:43
three years that you can say,
48:43
Hey, man, I don't really think
48:46
this was your best work. And it
48:46
doesn't come off as like an
48:49
insult. Because you have we have
48:49
three years of telling each
48:53
other that was your that was
48:53
great work. And so you can be
48:57
much more honest. So I just
48:57
appreciate, you know, getting to
49:02
know everybody. And you don't
49:02
feel like I'm only here for a
49:06
year so that I can get land
49:06
something else and jump ship as
49:10
soon as possible.
49:11  Kevin
Yeah, that's all I enjoy
49:11
hearing that stuff. That's it's
49:14
a great question. And thanks for
49:14
giving us the time to talk about
49:17
it a little bit and reflect on
49:17
it. You know, for me, I think
49:21
that my favorite thing
49:21
absolutely is the team that we
49:23
have working together on the
49:23
product. Since those who are
49:28
listening obviously don't know
49:28
the team as well as we do. I'm
49:30
going to give you my other one
49:30
which is just right behind the
49:33
team, which I love working with
49:33
every day. And that's that we
49:36
get to work in a space where we
49:36
get to give people provide
49:39
access to publishing tools for
49:39
people to put whatever they want
49:42
out into the world. That's it's
49:42
a really fulfilling opportunity.
49:47
And I feel really blessed and I
49:47
try not to take it for granted.
49:50
That we we get to build software
49:50
that let people put messages out
49:54
to the world like whether they
49:54
they're teaching or they're
49:57
inspiring or they're just
49:57
sharing their life story. Some
50:01
of it is entertainment and
50:01
comedy or just, you know,
50:04
building expertise and sharing
50:04
that in different ways. It's,
50:07
it's
50:08
very, very fulfilling. And I'm
50:08
very grateful that we have an
50:11
opportunity to be able to do
50:11
that for people, you know, and
50:15
it's a business. So we charge
50:15
for it, and we try to charge a
50:17
reasonable fee and, and not
50:17
charge any more than we have to.
50:20
And when we get that right, then
50:20
we get to make a good living.
50:23
And people who want to utilize
50:23
our platform feel like it's a
50:25
fair value to put out the
50:25
content that they want to put
50:28
out. And we're serving an
50:28
audience that loves doing this,
50:32
like most people who are
50:32
podcasting are doing it because
50:34
they love it. It's like a
50:34
passion project, you know, and
50:37
there's a small percentage of
50:37
people who there is a business
50:40
interest behind it, or they hope
50:40
for it to be able to be to
50:44
provide some income for them. If
50:44
not today, at some point, that's
50:47
great, too. But the vast
50:47
majority are just doing it
50:49
because they love it. And so
50:49
those are the customers who we
50:51
get to interact with. So I would
50:51
say number one, the people who I
50:54
interact with on a daily basis,
50:54
the team, that's my number one,
50:57
but right behind it, is just
50:57
working in this industry. And
51:00
Buzzsprout has the absolute best
51:00
customers in the world. Like we
51:03
just went through this, and we
51:03
got to see it and experience it
51:06
firsthand when we went through a
51:06
DDoS attack. I cannot believe
51:10
how supportive and encouraging
51:10
our customers our I don't know,
51:15
I don't wanna get too emotional
51:15
about it, because I can't get
51:17
emotional about it. Because
51:17
it's, it's amazing. It's like,
51:19
we're not just, we're not just
51:19
building software and putting it
51:22
out to the world, we have a
51:22
connection with the people who
51:24
are using it. And we're hearing
51:24
the stories on the backside of
51:28
that, like how the podcasting
51:28
has changed your life, how their
51:30
podcasts are impacting people.
51:30
And then when we have a hiccup
51:34
on our side, and you know, our
51:34
technology is failing, how they
51:37
want to support us because our
51:37
software supported them. So it's
51:40
a really great fun place to
51:40
work. I love our career, and I
51:43
totally feel blessed to be able
51:43
to participate in it.
51:45  Travis
So if you're interested
51:45
in joining the Buzzsprout team,
51:48
I will leave a link in the show
51:48
notes where you can go and check
51:50
out the job opening that we have
51:50
right now. And if you feel like
51:53
it's a good fit, and you can
51:53
certainly apply for it, we'd
51:55
love to see that application.
51:55
And thank you guys so much just
51:57
for being an incredibly
51:57
generous, encouraging audience.
52:01
We love recording these every
52:01
other week. And we love hearing
52:05
from you guys. And so anytime
52:05
you want to give us a shout out,
52:09
hit us up in the Facebook group.
52:09
We'd love to hear from you. But
52:12
that's it for today's episode.
52:12
We'll catch you in the next one.