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How to Succeed in Podcasting with Pat Flynn [transcript]


In this bonus episode, Pat Flynn shares his top tips for creating a successful podcast, building a tribe of Superfans, and how to monetize with a small audience.

More resources from Pat:

  • "Power Up Podcasting" Course
  • "Superfans" Book
  • Smart Passive Income Podcast
  • Pat Flynn's YouTube Channel


Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-04-02  1h3m
 
 
00:00  Pat
you have to remember that
00:00
every number of download every
00:03
number of play that is a actual
00:03
human being on the other end
00:07
that is actually listening to
00:07
your show imagine if you had
00:09
those 250 people or even 100
00:09
people in a room with you at a
00:13
conference and you are on stage
00:13
and you get to present them now
00:17
it feels a little bit different
00:24  Alban
everybody my guest today
00:24
is pat flynn pat is a father
00:28
he's a businessman he's a
00:28
husband he's a best selling
00:31
author he's a youtuber
00:31
entrepreneur but the thing you
00:34
probably know him the best for
00:34
is podcasting specifically his
00:38
podcast smart passive income
00:38
which has over 450 episodes he's
00:43
been doing it for over 11 years
00:43
and it has over 60 million
00:48
downloads and i'm so excited to
00:48
bring him on to the show just to
00:53
share his wisdom and what he's
00:53
learned over 11 years of
00:55
podcasting he's also a
00:55
podcasting educator and it's
00:59
probably not an exaggeration to
00:59
say he may have taught more
01:04
podcasters how to podcast than
01:04
anybody else in the world as
01:09
because he has the most popular
01:09
youtube videos and podcasts he
01:12
has one of the most popular
01:12
blogs on podcasting and he has
01:16
the most popular course on
01:16
podcasting so through all of
01:20
those different avenues he
01:20
probably has taught more people
01:23
how to podcast than anybody else
01:23
and so i'm so excited to share
01:27
pat's insights with you today
01:27
pat thank you so much for being
01:31
on the show
01:32  Pat
thank you for having me i
01:32
didn't even think about the fact
01:34
that i may be the person who has
01:34
helped more people start
01:37
podcasts than anybody else it's
01:37
kind of scary actually we are
01:39
really cool same time
01:41  Alban
we often ask people when
01:41
they sign up for Buzzsprout how
01:43
they learned about us and how
01:43
they learned about podcasting
01:47
and i'm shocked how often you
01:47
are the answer to both of those
01:52
a lot of people do they get on
01:52
smart passive income they start
01:56
listening to it and i think
01:56
that's kind of the you know the
02:00
entry point for them to realize
02:00
how exciting the world of
02:03
podcasting can be
02:05  Pat
yeah i mean that's how i
02:05
got into podcasting it was a
02:08
show that i listened to that
02:08
inspired me to want to start my
02:10
show and i think my audience is
02:10
doing a lot better job than i
02:14
was because when i first wanted
02:14
to start a podcast this was
02:18
december of 2008 i bought all
02:18
the equipment and my first
02:22
episode didn't come out until
02:22
july 2010 because i was too
02:25
afraid i was too worried i was
02:25
too scared if only i'd started
02:28
sooner i'd be that much further
02:28
ahead but anyway it's not it's
02:32
never too late that's for sure
02:32
and there's so many great shows
02:35
coming out now it's it's so
02:35
exciting well you do not have an
02:37
experience that is that far
02:37
different from a lot of
02:40
podcasters i know every year
02:40
that i go to conferences it
02:44
breaks my heart that i see
02:44
people that i knew from previous
02:48
years and i asked them how the
02:48
show's going and they're kind of
02:52
still stuck on some of the same
02:52
points and i got a lot of these
02:56
stumbling blocks lined up in
02:56
this interview that i want you
02:59
to just kind of knock down but
02:59
first you've got a growing
03:04
youtube channel a awesome blog
03:04
and the podcast what is special
03:08
about the podcasts it's the
03:08
intimacy with with the person
03:11
who's listening on the other end
03:11
it's the intimacy with the
03:15
person who's a guest on the
03:15
other end if i'm if i'm doing an
03:17
interview and it's long form
03:17
content that people can listen
03:20
to anywhere in the car on a walk
03:20
on the go they can even download
03:25
episodes obviously ahead of time
03:25
on their device from wherever
03:28
they're subscribed and listen
03:28
while on a plane it's just
03:31
content that you can't really
03:31
consume anywhere else and it's
03:34
passive listening that becomes
03:34
active action in a way i hope
03:39
nobody's watching videos while
03:39
driving i hope nobody is you
03:42
know reading a blog post while
03:42
trying to also you know do a
03:46
bench press or something like
03:46
that but you can listen anytime
03:50
anywhere and that's the coolest
03:50
part about it it's it's that
03:52
access to people in those places
03:52
but ask access to people in
03:57
those places for way longer than
03:57
anywhere else and through that
04:03
you can't help but build a
04:03
relationship with your listeners
04:05
it's just such an amazing
04:05
magical thing
04:09  Alban
yeah there's something
04:09
incredible when you look at the
04:12
attention span that people have
04:12
for podcasts versus other forms
04:16
of media tick tock it's seven
04:16
seconds on youtube we're lucky
04:21
to get three minutes at least on
04:21
our channel we're lucky to get
04:24
three minutes i looked at some
04:24
of our blogs and the average
04:27
time is about four minutes from
04:27
i mean what do you think it is
04:30
for podcasting for us it's
04:30
something like 3040 minutes our
04:34
average listen times for our
04:34
podcasts
04:36  Pat
yeah that's ridiculous
04:36
right that's that's so crazy
04:39
that to me just makes complete
04:39
sense why everybody should have
04:42
a podcast anybody who actually
04:42
cares about their brand anybody
04:45
who wants to spread and share
04:45
their message there's obviously
04:49
things that are missing
04:49
currently in the podcasting
04:51
space that we would love to have
04:51
that we do have access to on
04:54
youtube certain kinds of
04:54
analytics certain kinds of reach
04:58
algorithms that are in play but
04:58
i foresee a future where within
05:02
podcasting that all exists and
05:02
it's those who get in earlier
05:05
who are going to win you wrote
05:07  Alban
a book called superfans
05:07
the easy way to stand out grow
05:12
your tribe and build a
05:12
successful business and there it
05:16
is right there
05:18  Pat
i was giving this away
05:18
earlier and i had one right in
05:19
front me i don't just like hold
05:19
my book with me it's funny
05:22  Alban
mine is at the office and
05:22
i was so bummed that i didn't
05:24
have it here to flip up so that
05:24
was perfect timing this idea of
05:28
superpowers i don't know i from
05:28
my perspective reading it i
05:32
don't know if you could have
05:32
written earlier we've been
05:34
written the same way if you
05:34
weren't a podcaster can you talk
05:37
about how podcasting influenced
05:37
that book and how we should find
05:43
our super fans when creating a
05:43
podcast
05:45  Pat
yeah podcasting is
05:45
absolutely i mean podcasting
05:48
makes its way into the book
05:48
several times because those are
05:50
the people who have shown up and
05:50
people who have supported the
05:54
brand over the years and when
05:54
you look back into my history i
05:57
actually started out as a
05:57
blogger i started blogging in
05:59
2008 about my layoff and then
05:59
transitioning into
06:03
entrepreneurship and a very
06:03
successful business i created
06:06
the architecture field and just
06:06
i was very transparent with that
06:08
blogging three times a week and
06:08
of course like i said i wanted
06:12
to start a podcast but i was too
06:12
afraid but finally mustered up
06:14
the courage to publish my first
06:14
episode in july of 2010 later
06:19
that year 2010 i went to a
06:19
conference blog world expo in
06:23
las vegas that conference no
06:23
longer exists but i went there
06:27
and nobody talked about the blog
06:27
everybody talked about the
06:32
podcast it was podcast his
06:32
podcast that well that story you
06:35
told about this or that one time
06:35
you mentioned this and i was
06:37
like okay cool but that's i'm
06:37
only podcasting every other week
06:41
that's all i could fit in at the
06:41
time but i'm blogging three
06:44
times a week what about that
06:44
blog post i wrote what about
06:46
this and they're like oh yeah
06:46
facebook tips okay cool whatever
06:48
but yeah but that story you told
06:48
on the show was epic and i was
06:51
like wow i think i need to flip
06:51
the script a little bit i think
06:55
i need to do less blogging and
06:55
more podcasting because it seems
06:57
to be the thing that everybody's
06:57
talking about and remembering
06:59
and the lessons are being
06:59
learned with context and story
07:02
behind it and honestly it was
07:02
just so much fun and much easier
07:06
to create too and i've learned
07:06
over time firsthand with
07:10
conversations with people that
07:10
it's the podcast that helps them
07:13
be become a fan i have a i'm
07:13
going to turn the camera around
07:17
i hope it doesn't break but if i
07:17
turn the camera around you'll
07:19
see a board there in the back
07:19
with all these thank you notes
07:23
on it and that's just a fraction
07:23
of the ones that i've collected
07:29
over time 99% of the mentioned
07:29
the podcast there's just
07:34
something about hearing a
07:34
person's voice on the go in your
07:36
daily life that you can't help
07:36
build a connection and then want
07:39
to support that person back
07:39
whether that support comes in
07:41
the form of purchasing books and
07:41
and products but some of the
07:45
best support i've gotten has
07:45
been in the form of sharing and
07:48
referrals connections to people
07:48
who i need help from and some of
07:52
the best kind of feedback and
07:52
super fan like things that i've
07:55
had the experience with my
07:55
audience with it comes in the
07:58
form of feedback people wouldn't
07:58
give you feedback if they didn't
08:00
actually care about the thing
08:00
that you're building so to me
08:05
it's it's all about the
08:05
connection and that's what i'm
08:08
trying to provide for my
08:08
audience with regards to
08:11
entrepreneurship and the
08:11
struggles of entrepreneurship
08:13
and whatnot and the cool thing
08:13
is the podcast medium is a
08:17
beautiful place to tell those
08:17
stories that allow people to
08:19
connect and that's the first
08:19
step is that is that connection
08:22  Alban
one thing i've heard you
08:22
say in multiple interviews that
08:26
i love is podcasting is the best
08:26
way to scale intimacy because
08:31
there's something so special
08:31
about going for a jog and
08:35
listening to someone tell
08:35
stories because we are so story
08:39
driven as people and just hear
08:39
story after story about what
08:43
kind of struggles people are
08:43
working through in their lives
08:46
and the connection you build is
08:46
so different than you would
08:50
build from just watching youtube
08:50
videos which i love youtube and
08:53
i love creating for youtube but
08:53
there's a different level of
08:56
intimacy that we create with
08:56
podcasts
08:59  Pat
that is to me business
08:59
insurance for life that's future
09:03
proofing your business because
09:03
this book as you'll as you'll
09:07
find if you read it it's nothing
09:07
new really it's not
09:11
revolutionary it's just here's
09:11
what we should be focusing on if
09:15
we really care about the future
09:15
of our business because
09:18
technology changes these walled
09:18
gardens are getting pulled up
09:21
put up algorithms are changing
09:21
all the time but the thing is if
09:25
you have people who care about
09:25
you doesn't matter what's
09:28
happening in tech they're going
09:28
to follow you and find you and
09:31
support you and so that's why i
09:31
think superfans are really
09:33
important not because you can
09:33
make more money or whatever but
09:35
this is how you stay alive truly
09:38  Alban
yeah if youtube decides
09:38
to change the algorithm if
09:42
twitter wants to try to get more
09:42
ads so they don't give you as
09:47
much of a reach if any of these
09:47
algorithms change the superfans
09:51
are the ones who crawl over
09:51
those algorithms to find you and
09:55
they don't get an episode they
09:55
call in they're frustrated or
09:58
they're emailing in because
09:58
they're saying hey i actually
10:01
listen to spi every tuesday when
10:01
i'm driving to work and i missed
10:06
it today and i'm wondering where
10:06
it is you know is everything
10:10
okay those are the people that
10:10
we want to connect with that's
10:13
the level of intimacy we have to
10:13
shoot for or else all we're
10:16
really getting our likes from
10:16
somebody who doesn't really
10:20
remember their your name and you
10:20
don't matter a whole lot to them
10:25
in the long run
10:26  Pat
yeah i mean that's why it's
10:26
important to be yourself and to
10:28
be comfortable with who you are
10:28
and as we often hear it's like
10:32
your vibe is gonna attract your
10:32
tribe the people who will want
10:35
to connect with yourself and
10:35
other people like you too and i
10:38
think that's really important it
10:38
can be very nerve wracking at
10:41
times because it's very scary to
10:41
put yourself out there when you
10:43
put yourself out there
10:43
especially online you invite
10:46
perhaps the other side to come
10:46
in and comment on it or you know
10:50
the trolls and people who are
10:50
disrespectful but the truth is
10:52
if you build superfans and you
10:52
have a reason why people should
10:55
stand together with you you
10:55
might not even know those trolls
10:58
exists because your superfans
10:58
are already batten them away for
11:02
you
11:02  Alban
and that can say things
11:02
that you could never say
11:05
yourself
11:07  Pat
yeah or if you say them
11:07
it's like of course you're gonna
11:10
you know somebody who is not you
11:10
their words gonna mean much much
11:14
more for sure
11:15  Alban
i like you saying putting
11:15
yourself out there because that
11:17
raises one of these first
11:17
stumbling blocks i know everyone
11:20
hits and that's perfectionism we
11:20
listened to spi we listen to guy
11:25
roz we listen to cereal and
11:25
they're so well produced and put
11:29
together that when we record
11:29
ourselves we sound goofy and we
11:34
are confident we don't know what
11:34
we're doing um can you talk to
11:37
me a little bit about maybe a
11:37
time that perfectionism got in
11:40
the way for you and how you
11:40
overcame it
11:43  Pat
yeah so we're talking
11:43
literally 2008 to 2010 that
11:47
whole two year period was me
11:47
thinking that i had to be
11:50
perfect and any sort of thing
11:50
that showed me that wasn't
11:54
perfect was an excuse for me to
11:54
go okay i'm not ready yet right
11:59
and i'll put this off till later
11:59
till i am perfect or till i can
12:02
get ready and for me
12:02
particularly was hard because i
12:04
grew up in a household where i
12:04
was supposed to be perfect in
12:08
school like i would come home
12:08
with a 97% of my tests and i'd
12:11
work for the next three four
12:11
hours at home with my parents to
12:14
make sure i understood to never
12:14
do that make those mistakes
12:17
again so i was conditioned to
12:17
believe it has to be perfect
12:20
before i put it out there show
12:20
anybody and as a result of that
12:23
it was never going to come out
12:23
the podcast was never going to
12:26
come out until i started to talk
12:26
to a number of people in the
12:28
space who were very supportive
12:28
and said no you just need like
12:32
you will never be perfect number
12:32
one that's that's the first
12:35
thing to know is like there's no
12:35
such thing that is a myth
12:38
because you can always improve
12:38
you can always do better but the
12:42
truth is that there were people
12:42
who probably needed the
12:45
information that i was going to
12:45
be sharing on my show but i was
12:48
i was letting my own feared
12:48
perfectionist ways get in the
12:51
way of that and that felt then
12:51
when i switch that story to that
12:55
it felt very selfish like it's
12:55
very selfish of me to think that
12:58
okay i have to make it perfect
12:58
it has to be perfect to my
13:02
standards in order to help
13:02
people that's not true right
13:05
imagine somebody is like
13:05
literally drowning outside of a
13:07
boat that you're standing on and
13:07
they're like please help me
13:10
right that's some of our
13:10
listeners are actually asking
13:13
for our help and drowning in
13:13
whatever problem or circumstance
13:15
they might be in imagine you
13:15
saying i'd love to help you but
13:20
my life vest isn't buckled all
13:20
the way yet or you know the
13:25
waves are a little bit too big i
13:25
want to wait to the waves are a
13:28
little bit smaller so i have a
13:28
little bit more stability before
13:31
i reach out and help you that's
13:31
such a selfish almost a jerk way
13:36
to think about it but that's
13:36
actually what we're doing in
13:39
this world that we just don't
13:39
see that because we're not
13:42
interacting with that person but
13:42
those people exist they need you
13:44
they're waiting for you and
13:44
they're drowning in something
13:47
and you can save them right now
13:47
and the truth is and i've heard
13:50
this from john lee dumas another
13:50
proficient podcaster who once
13:53
said you have to be a disaster
13:53
before you become the master
13:55  Alban
hmm i love it i
13:56  Pat
just have to i love it too
13:56
because i listened my first few
14:00
episodes they were absolute
14:00
disasters but you get better
14:02
each time if you consciously
14:02
just go okay well that happened
14:06
what can i improve on in a micro
14:06
way the next time you don't have
14:09
to go like huge improvement next
14:09
time but a little bit of
14:13
improvement here and there 1%
14:13
better every time atomic habits
14:16
like you're gonna see massive
14:16
returns over time if you stay
14:20
consistent and you keep going
14:20
sure i heard you talking with
14:22
you the three or four years ago
14:22
at traffic and conversion in san
14:26
diego and you did something kind
14:26
of blew my mind and i believe
14:30
it's the podcast you played your
14:30
very first episode from the
14:34
stage it was that it was
14:34
actually not my first episode it
14:36
was before my first episode it
14:36
was actually a recording that i
14:39
recorded in december of 2008
14:39
after i bought it bought all my
14:42
equipment i had a small
14:42
following on my blog and i
14:45
proclaimed to my small little
14:45
world that i was going to come
14:48
out with a podcast again
14:48
december of 2008 and you know
14:51
the story july 2010 when is when
14:51
it finally came out but i played
14:54
that audio file that announced
14:54
to the world and it was like
14:58
it's like one of the most
14:58
embarrassing things that i could
14:59
share But I share it because we
14:59
all got to start at the
15:02
beginning.
15:03  Alban
I mean that listening to
15:03
that was game changing for me to
15:06
hear, then, and I still think of
15:06
it now, because it's so easy to
15:12
think you probably were born to
15:12
be a podcaster. And you were
15:17
immediately good at it. And the
15:17
only experience I ever had of
15:22
your podcast was going to be
15:22
these well, polished episodes.
15:24
And then hearing it, I heard my
15:24
own voice, and I heard my own
15:28
insecurities. And it's very
15:28
powerful to see that in someone
15:32
who, you know, I know the future
15:32
11 years after that was
15:35
recorded, you are going to be a
15:35
massively successful podcaster.
15:39
And then it's nice to be able to
15:39
see that because I can look at
15:42
myself and go, Oh, wait in 11
15:42
years of work on this, I could
15:47
be at that level, if Pat didn't
15:47
have, there wasn't something
15:51
special when it started.
15:54  Pat
Yeah, I always get that
15:54
kind of feedback when I play
15:57
that, which is why I'm not
15:57
afraid to share it. But it does
16:00
make me cringe like crazy every
16:00
single time, I just hear how
16:04
little confidence I had. And it
16:04
stopped me right for a year and
16:08
a half, I was so scared. But
16:08
when I started to get the notes,
16:12
and the thank you emails and the
16:12
responses from people who are
16:17
listening to even my earlier
16:17
episodes that weren't well
16:19
polished, where I had no idea
16:19
what I was doing, I was like,
16:22
wow, you can still make a
16:22
difference. And you don't have
16:24
to be perfect, let's keep going.
16:24
But let's try to make it better.
16:27
And then now, you know, 1112
16:27
years later, it's like a well
16:31
oiled machine. And I feel like
16:31
I'm in a groove. I'm always
16:34
looking to improve still, but I
16:34
feel very comfortable. It
16:38
literally took years before that
16:38
though. Like it wasn't like, oh,
16:40
two episodes, and I'm good. Now.
16:40
Now it was years of discomfort,
16:44  Alban
you have to be the
16:44
disaster before you can ever
16:47
become the master. If there's
16:47
somebody who's listening, and I
16:50
hope we're kind of making the
16:50
case for podcasting, it's got
16:53
this level of intimacy that is
16:53
really unmatched anywhere else,
16:57
people will become your super
16:57
fans. And the best way to
16:59
connect with them is to kind of
16:59
be in their ear for week after
17:03
week, for 45 minutes a week, or
17:03
however long the podcast is, you
17:07
can get a greater level of
17:07
intimacy, build those super
17:09
fans. And the fact that you
17:09
feel, you know, the person who
17:14
Steve started, could feel
17:14
insecure right now could feel a
17:17
little bit of imposter syndrome.
17:17
That's totally normal. Now that
17:21
we've got all that out of the
17:21
way, if somebody goes, Okay, I'm
17:24
ready to do it, I want to start
17:24
a podcast, where should they
17:26
start?
17:27  Pat
I think it's really
17:27
important to understand, and try
17:29
to figure out what your show is
17:29
going to be about to be able to
17:31
potentially even position it
17:31
before we start hitting record
17:34
and start talking to people or
17:34
even even before we start
17:36
reaching out to people to
17:36
potentially Come on our show, I
17:39
think it's really important to
17:39
have an understanding of well,
17:42
what is this going to be about?
17:42
How might we describe this to
17:45
others? How might we figure out
17:45
what the title is, like getting
17:48
those little details are going
17:48
to be really key. And I love
17:51
that part because it's you know,
17:51
I teach podcasting in a number
17:53
of ways. I have a one of the top
17:53
if not the top YouTube video on
17:57
how to start a podcast 1.5 or
17:57
something million views, which
18:01
is just insane. And I have a
18:01
course with a number of
18:04
students, 1000s of students have
18:04
taken it. Sometimes, the coolest
18:10
thing that can happen is the
18:10
name, and just choosing the name
18:13
and it becomes real at that
18:13
moment. It's like, wow, here's
18:15
the show. Let's let's, let's
18:15
start talking about it with
18:18
other people. Let's start
18:18
seeding it, let's start
18:20
imagining it. Let's start
18:20
designing the logo and all this
18:22
other stuff, like getting the
18:22
title nailed down is really,
18:26
really exciting. Because it
18:26
starts to make it real. I think
18:30
Seth Godin said, you know, when
18:30
you put a name to something, it
18:32
becomes a real so put a name to
18:32
it. And it doesn't have to be
18:35
the name and just a name, at
18:35
least for now, just so you can
18:37
move forward. And the name can
18:37
always change, of course, and it
18:40
does feel very permanent. Yes, I
18:40
do hear a lot of people who use
18:43
not knowing the name as an
18:43
excuse. And I remember talking
18:46
to somebody. And I was like you
18:46
said you wanted to start a
18:48
podcast long time ago, what
18:48
happened? There's like, yeah, I
18:50
never found a good name for it.
18:50
I'm like you let that stop you.
18:53
Like, really? I think there's
18:53
something deeper going on here.
18:56
But I think that number one,
18:56
understand what your show is
18:59
about. And then number two, I
18:59
always recommend for people to
19:01
kind of consider, okay, try to
19:01
come up with 25 episodes, like
19:05
just you know, that you don't
19:05
have to nail the title or
19:07
anything, just what might you
19:07
talk about when you start
19:09
hitting record. And if you can
19:09
get 25 then Okay, you're pretty
19:13
good. Because you might have
19:13
like a half year's worth, if
19:15
you're doing weekly worth of
19:15
content that you could kind of
19:18
keep going with versus what I
19:18
know a lot of people do is they
19:21
just jump into it. And they're
19:21
two episodes in and they're
19:24
like, I don't even know what I'm
19:24
talking about next week. I don't
19:27
ever want to be there. Again. I
19:27
was there for years, where every
19:31
time I hit publish, it was like
19:31
not only that I have a huge
19:34
weight lifted off my shoulder,
19:34
but I had like next week's
19:36
episode Wait, come back on me
19:36
like immediately. And then I
19:40
have to scramble to figure out
19:40
what I wanted to talk about
19:42
again. So planning ahead,
19:42
getting used to kind of having a
19:44
little bit of an editorial
19:44
calendar, but at least just
19:46
writing down 25 ideas for shows
19:46
or guests that you might be able
19:50
to have on the show, and where
19:50
do those come from? They should
19:53
just come from either your
19:53
expertise and knowledge about
19:56
the topic and things that you
19:56
feel like would be useful to
19:58
share but even more importantly,
19:58
they can be answers to people's
20:01
questions or topics that are hot
20:01
within the space that you're in
20:03
right now, you shouldn't have,
20:03
if it's a prop, if it's a
20:06
podcast that you can stick with,
20:06
you shouldn't have any problem
20:09
thinking about that. And if you
20:09
do have a problem coming up with
20:12
that many ideas, well, then we
20:12
need to rethink the show,
20:14
because you're eventually going
20:14
to get to the point where you're
20:16
gonna need to kind of come up
20:16
with new stuff. And that's
20:19
really important. So that that's
20:19
kind of where I would start kind
20:21
of getting into the weeds a
20:21
little bit about, okay, well,
20:23
what is this actually going to
20:23
look like? And it's really neat,
20:25
because once you start to
20:25
consider what those shows are
20:27
going to be about, you can start
20:27
imagining, can I, you know, have
20:30
a conversation about that, how
20:30
might I be able to speak about
20:34
that topic, and you know, you
20:34
can start to dig a little bit
20:37
deeper in there. But at the same
20:37
time, you might actually have a
20:40
new idea for what the show might
20:40
become, right? Once you start
20:43
putting things into place, your
20:43
initial ideas start to change
20:46
and morph. And it's better to do
20:46
that. Now, before we do all this
20:48
stuff. And then finally, what I
20:48
would do is talk to people about
20:51
the potential of you creating
20:51
the show, you have an idea for
20:54
the name, you have an idea of
20:54
what the show's gonna be about,
20:56
and maybe some of the episodes
20:56
to talk about it with people, if
20:59
you have fans already. Let them
20:59
let them in on the process. It's
21:02
a fun thing for them to be a
21:02
part of talk about it with some
21:04
of your friends and colleagues
21:04
just to kind of get a gut
21:06
reaction to see if they can poke
21:06
any holes in it or have them
21:09
start to challenge you on it so
21:09
that you can answer those
21:11
questions that likely your
21:11
future listeners are going to
21:14
already be asking themselves
21:14
before they click play. So I
21:18
think that that's where we
21:18
start.
21:20  Alban
You got you to a YouTube
21:20
channel with tons of great
21:22
videos on podcasting. You do a
21:22
webinar called podcasting the
21:26
smart way, I think you have one
21:26
coming up. In a few months, you
21:30
have one of those webinars
21:30
coming up. You have a blog that
21:32
ranks right near the top for all
21:32
the how to start a podcast
21:36
keywords that I printed it out.
21:36
It's like 20 pages, and it's
21:39
just full of the tips that
21:39
you're really going to want to
21:43
know before you start the
21:43
podcasting process. And then the
21:47
one that a lot of Buzzsprout
21:47
customers have done his power up
21:50
podcasting, which is the course
21:50
he put together that really is a
21:53
tizzy. Everything you need to
21:53
know about podcasting, you can
21:57
take it at your own pace or with
21:57
somebody else. But I know we
22:00
have lots of people on
22:00
Buzzsprout, who've taken those
22:02
courses, webinars, everything.
22:02
And I've learned a ton from you
22:06
because of it.
22:07  Pat
Yeah, thank you so much. I
22:07
mean, the course was built from
22:11
a need in my audience that I
22:11
didn't even know was there until
22:14
people started asking me nonstop
22:14
for it. I actually was
22:16
recommending somebody else's
22:16
course for a while because I was
22:18
just like, I have a YouTube
22:18
video. It's that's kind of do
22:21
the job. But no, here we take
22:21
you step by step videos on like
22:25
this plugs into this, like down
22:25
to the one of our favorite
22:28
students is Dr. v. She's over 60
22:28
years old with deathly afraid of
22:30
technology. But she really had a
22:30
voice and she wanted to share
22:33
some information with people who
22:33
are living with ADHD, which is
22:36
her specialty. So the course she
22:36
took it on her own, over 60
22:39
years old was able to get
22:39
through it. Now she has a
22:42
podcast. And she's in probably
22:42
by now, nearly over 100
22:47
countries helping people around
22:47
the world with ADHD and is
22:50
becoming sort of a thought
22:50
leader in that space, which is
22:52
really cool. I interviewed her
22:52
soon after she started her show.
22:56
And she said that she she has a
22:56
map behind her computer where
22:59
every time she sees she has new
22:59
listener, she puts a pin up on
23:02
that map. And at that moment,
23:02
she only had 33 I say only but
23:06
that's a lot. And she her
23:06
message is being spread. And if
23:10
she can do it, anybody can do
23:10
it. So yeah, power of podcasting
23:14
would love to have you as a
23:14
student. And if not, no worries,
23:17  Alban
what tips would you give
23:17
to a beginner podcaster? We've
23:20
kind of talked about the you
23:20
just need to start publishing.
23:23
Don't hold yourself back, don't
23:23
be the person to lifeboat say my
23:27
hair doesn't look perfect for
23:27
this life, jumping off the boat
23:30
to save you moment. What tips
23:30
would you give that beginner
23:33
podcaster if you can maybe give
23:33
them two or three,
23:36  Pat
get used to recording
23:36
behind the microphone. It's
23:38
super awkward. It's It's so
23:38
weird to like, talk to yourself
23:41
on a microphone. And what can
23:41
help is imagining your ideal
23:45
listener, the person that you're
23:45
speaking to, or even a person
23:47
that you have once spoken to who
23:47
an episode might be for if you
23:50
consider that it's a little bit
23:50
easier when you start to notice
23:53
that there's other people on the
23:53
other end. If you want to do an
23:56
interview show, start with
23:56
people who you already know. So
23:58
it's not weird and awkward for
23:58
you at the start. There's likely
24:02
people in your network or
24:02
colleagues or even at least a
24:04
friend of a friend who might be
24:04
able and willing to come on the
24:06
show to share some information.
24:06
When with regards to interviews,
24:12
I know it can be very scary. On
24:12
one hand, yeah, it's kind of
24:15
easy, because you just have to
24:15
ask questions. But on the other
24:17
hand, you're driving the show,
24:17
it's really up to you. And my
24:20
favorite piece of advice was
24:20
just be genuinely curious. If
24:23
you're doing an interview, just
24:23
be genuinely curious. It's going
24:25
to guide your questions, it's
24:25
going to guide the follow up
24:28
questions, it's going to guide
24:28
you in terms of, you know, as
24:31
long as you know the purpose of
24:31
that episode and what you want a
24:34
listener to end up at after then
24:34
sort of all signs point to that.
24:38
So that could be really key and
24:38
really helpful. I think
24:41
marketing is a very, very
24:41
important component of
24:44
podcasting that's often
24:44
overlooked. Most people focus on
24:47
Okay, let's just get the show
24:47
out. And then we find our
24:49
listeners, right. But I like to
24:49
take the approach of Okay,
24:52
imagine you have listeners,
24:52
let's build a show for them.
24:54
Right. I think it was a Seth
24:54
Godin quote that was like,
24:57
that's very similar to that. He
24:57
said, you know, don't Find
25:00
customers for your products,
25:00
find products for your
25:03
customers. And the same thing
25:03
goes with your listeners, like
25:06
don't build a podcast and then
25:06
try to find listeners build a
25:11
podcast for your listeners. And
25:11
that can be really key. And I
25:15
think seeding the idea that
25:15
you're going to come out with a
25:17
podcast can be great because it
25:17
number one lets people know
25:20
about it ahead of time. So
25:20
they're not like, surprised or
25:23
blind by cited by it later. It
25:23
also holds you accountable.
25:26
Because one of the best things
25:26
that we teach in our courses
25:28
like pick a date, pick a launch
25:28
date, a month or two, at least
25:32
ahead of time, so that you have
25:32
some time to build hype and
25:34
build the business and build the
25:34
podcast, get all the systems in
25:38
place, use Buzzsprout, and all
25:38
that good stuff. And then you'll
25:43
have enough time to build
25:43
perhaps a launch marketing team,
25:48
like a team of listeners who
25:48
maybe get early access to the
25:50
show ahead of time, so you can
25:50
launch it. And you'll already
25:52
have reviews on day one from
25:52
those people who are probably
25:55
going to be super fanatical
25:55
about the fact that they get
25:57
early access to this, get your
25:57
friends and family on board, let
26:00
them know about it and ask them
26:00
if they know anybody who might
26:02
be interested in these topics to
26:02
let them know about it to other
26:05
tips. I'm just brain dumping
26:05
right now. That's, that's,
26:08  Alban
I love
26:08  Pat
it. Because every one of
26:08
these tips are there's like a
26:11
handful of people that it's like
26:11
the tip that they need to hear.
26:15
And we cut a couple of the
26:15
mouth. That is perfectly okay,
26:19
because these are all great is a
26:19
great. So make sure that when
26:21
you launch you launch with, I
26:21
recommend launching with three
26:24
episodes like on day one, when
26:24
you launch because that way, a
26:28
person who listens now has more
26:28
to listen to that increases your
26:31
download numbers and increases
26:31
the likelihood that they're
26:33
going to be subscriber increases
26:33
the likelihood that they might
26:36
leave a review because they've
26:36
had more episodes, maybe a
26:39
person is more interested in
26:39
Episode Three first, that's the
26:42
one that's bringing them in
26:42
because of a good title. And
26:44
then they go 312 or 321 or 213,
26:44
whatever. There's just more
26:48
opportunity there. And number
26:48
two, I wouldn't worry. So this
26:52
is the biggest tip. Yes, the
26:52
numbers are important. Having
26:56
downloads that, you know, you're
26:56
going to look at your download
27:00
numbers, it's I'm not gonna say
27:00
don't look at your stats, or
27:02
it's not about the stats. Of
27:02
course, stats are important. But
27:07
you have to remember that every
27:07
number of download every number
27:10
of play, that is a actual human
27:10
being on the other end, that is
27:15
actually listening to your show.
27:15
So I know a lot of podcasters
27:18
who are like, yeah, I only get
27:18
like 250 downloads per episode.
27:21
It's really hard. I'm not
27:21
encouraged. Because my friend
27:24
who also started a podcast has
27:24
100,000 downloads per month. And
27:27
I'm just not feeling it. Like I
27:27
don't think my podcast is
27:30
successful. Well imagine if you
27:30
had those 250 people or even 100
27:34
people in a room with you at a
27:34
conference and you are on stage
27:37
and you get to present to them.
27:37
Now it feels a little bit
27:40
different. What's the
27:40
difference, there is no
27:41
difference, it's just it's
27:41
actually you're actually in a
27:43
more intimate setting than if
27:43
you were on stage because you're
27:46
actually in their ear. So when
27:46
you imagine that you can
27:49
actually start to relate to and
27:49
start to speak to those people
27:52
who are in that audience in that
27:52
way. And not focus so much on
27:55
the fact that you don't have
27:55
giant numbers, but the fact that
27:57
you have human beings who are
27:57
listening on the other end, and
28:00
that's who you're doing this for
28:00
and when you provide value, when
28:02
you show up and serve first,
28:02
you're going to be rewarded for
28:04
that. And if you're trying to
28:04
build a business out of this,
28:06
your earnings are a byproduct of
28:06
how well you serve your
28:08
audience. So so that's the
28:08
biggest tip because it's going
28:11
to be for many people very
28:11
discouraging, when in fact, this
28:15
is actually a super great start.
28:15
And you can't compare yourself
28:19
to another podcaster. Because
28:19
you both have different stories,
28:21
you have different
28:21
circumstances, you have
28:23
different audiences, different
28:23
mechanisms to find people, you
28:26
got to compare yourself to
28:26
yourself in your last episode to
28:29
yourself last month to yourself
28:29
last year, if you start playing
28:33
that comparison game, like it's
28:33
important to know that yes, you
28:36
can look at other people and get
28:36
inspired and motivated. But if
28:39
you start to change that story
28:39
from I'm not good enough, or why
28:42
isn't mine, like there's, that's
28:42
a very dangerous game to play.
28:45
And, you know, I know, so many
28:45
people quit because of that. And
28:50
that's not cool.
28:50  Alban
It is super interesting.
28:50
When you think about podcast
28:54
downloads, and you go, the
28:54
average podcast is only getting
28:57
something about 37 plays per
28:57
episode. And a lot of podcasters
29:02
are discouraged by that number.
29:02
But had they been invited to go
29:06
give a talk at the local Rotary
29:06
Club, or to some group that was
29:11
interested in their topic, they
29:11
would show up every week, I
29:14
would show up every week, if 37
29:14
people were going to be there
29:17
for me to talk to I would do it.
29:17
And the fact that I can do it
29:20
actually in the comfort of my
29:20
own home, wearing sweat pants
29:24
and being had a microphone, that
29:24
should be a plus not a negative.
29:28
And so it's so good to switch
29:28
our mindset and go, these aren't
29:32
just numbers that are
29:32
incrementing. There are actual
29:35
real people who are listening
29:35
and engaging with the message
29:40
that we have for the world.
29:41  Pat
And again, in every episode
29:41
trying to improve trying to test
29:45
the boundaries a little bit
29:45
trying to maybe get a little bit
29:47
uncomfortable. I think if you
29:47
were to stay in your comfort
29:49
zone with relation to
29:49
podcasting, it's probably
29:50
meaning you're not going to push
29:50
yourself hard enough in which
29:52
case you're probably just
29:52
creating average or imitation
29:55
type episodes. Push yourself
29:55
Stanford's something, get that
29:58
message out there and get people
29:58
to follow you. and stand up with
30:01
you for something. I think
30:01
that's another important thing
30:03
just with relation to business
30:03
and content creation. In
30:05
general, a lot of times we try
30:05
to play it safe because we're
30:08
worried about upsetting people.
30:08
But if you don't stand up for
30:12
something, then what do you
30:12
stand for? To quote Hamilton, in
30:15
fact, and then how will people
30:15
stand with you? Right? So that's
30:19
pretty key as well. Other
30:19
things, collaborating with other
30:22
podcasters, one of the best
30:22
things you can do, getting on
30:25
another person show and having
30:25
not just the ability to get in
30:29
front of an audience who likely
30:29
doesn't know you yet, mostly,
30:31
but also get an endorsement from
30:31
people who have already earned
30:34
that trust with that audience is
30:34
absolutely huge. So more
30:37
collaborations within the world
30:37
of podcasting, I think is
30:40
absolutely important. And then
30:40
when it comes to things like
30:43
monetization and whatnot, like,
30:43
I know that a lot of us are
30:46
starting podcast, because we
30:46
wanted to do some things for our
30:48
business. And we want to make
30:48
money through ads and things
30:52
like that, like the ad game is
30:52
gonna take a while, you need a
30:54
significant number of people
30:54
listening to your show every
30:58
time to have a really good
30:58
conversation with advertisers.
31:02
Now, that's not to say you can't
31:02
have advertisers with a small
31:04
group. I know some people who do
31:04
have advertisers for people who
31:08
just have 100 or 200 episode,
31:08
downloads per episode. But it's
31:12
because that product is so well
31:12
positioned for those people,
31:14
they've earned that trust. It's
31:14
a quality listener. And I think
31:17
a lot of advertisers are getting
31:17
privy to the fact that, you
31:20
know, podcast listeners are some
31:20
of the most quality types of
31:23
people of audiences that exist
31:23
out there, because of the
31:25
connection that they have with
31:25
the host. And that endorsement
31:27
means so much. But there's other
31:27
things like affiliate marketing,
31:30
where you can recommend a
31:30
product even in Episode One, so
31:32
long as it again serves that
31:32
audience, you can potentially
31:35
bring people from a podcast to
31:35
an email list to survey them and
31:37
ask more questions. So you can
31:37
determine what might be a
31:40
product or a service that you
31:40
might be able to create on top
31:42
of that to help them and
31:42
starting out small with just
31:46
helping one person is where I
31:46
would start versus Okay, let's
31:48
try to have a million dollar
31:48
launch. Thanks for the podcast.
31:51
So all that to say it is a long
31:51
term game, podcasting is
31:54
something that you're not going
31:54
to create a podcast and tomorrow
31:56
you're going to see millions of
31:56
dollars in sales, or huge land
32:00
rush of people, it can happen it
32:00
has happened before. But in
32:03
general, you should take the
32:03
approach of this is now a new
32:06
extension of my brand. And a way
32:06
for me to share my voice and
32:10
connect with others. And when
32:10
you do that, you get people to
32:13
start to know like and trust you
32:13
and perhaps even find you first
32:16
too as a result of the show. And
32:16
you can you can just again, make
32:20
magic with that and help people
32:20
in so many different ways that
32:23
you couldn't even imagine.
32:25  Alban
One of the examples I
32:25
love from somebody on Buzzsprout
32:28
is he was only getting maybe 150
32:28
plays per episode. But his
32:34
podcast was about setting up
32:34
call centers for businesses. And
32:38
that was what he did for his
32:38
business, he would help you go
32:40
in and help people set up a call
32:40
center. While that is a very,
32:44
very, very focused business. And
32:44
there's probably not a whole lot
32:49
of people that are interested in
32:49
that at all. It's super focused.
32:53
And because his sales cycle is
32:53
mostly super long, it made sense
32:57
for him to do this for a long
32:57
time before he ever got any
33:00
clients. And then when we
33:00
interviewed him, he said, it's
33:03
actually the best marketing I've
33:03
ever done. He was getting known
33:07
as the voice in his industry is
33:07
becoming the industry expert.
33:11
He's getting paid speaking gigs.
33:11
And he said, people that I'm
33:14
chasing, I've chased for years,
33:14
started listening to my show.
33:19
And when they got tired of
33:19
trying to set up the call center
33:21
themselves, they reached out to
33:21
me go, you're even listening to
33:25
you for a few months, and you
33:25
obviously understand your stuff,
33:28
would you just set ours up?
33:28
Because they built that trust
33:31
forever. And he's going Wait,
33:31
there are only 150 people, but
33:35
if they're the right 150 people,
33:35
then that is plenty. That's all
33:40
that you need to make. You know,
33:40
make the magic happen. Those are
33:45
your super fans, the people you
33:45
need to connect with, it can
33:48
really work even if those
33:48
numbers
33:50  Pat
and if you're trying to get
33:50
four super fans, it's gonna be
33:52
so much easier if you niche down
33:52
if you stay focused like that.
33:55
And as I often say, the riches
33:55
are in the niches. And I know
33:58
it's pronounced niches but it
33:58
doesn't rhyme as well. So when
34:01
you niche down Yes, you are
34:01
taking away the potential reach
34:06
of your podcast. But what
34:06
happens is you also create a
34:09
tighter circle for people to
34:09
come within. And if you were to
34:12
consider like the story of like
34:12
if you go to the mall, right? I
34:16
haven't been to a mall in like
34:16
over a year, which is super
34:18
weird. But you know, there's all
34:18
these different shoe stores.
34:21
There's a walking shoe store,
34:21
there's an athlete's foot,
34:23
there's a shoe store for people
34:23
who run there's a shoe store for
34:26
people who there's like The
34:26
Walking shoe company literally
34:28
that's their niche. And if you
34:28
are a marathon runner, for
34:32
example, are you going to go to
34:32
the place where all the shoes
34:36
exists like a Walmart or a shoe
34:36
pavilion or something? Or are
34:40
you going to go to the place
34:40
where you know you can get that
34:42
expert expert advice for
34:42
somebody who is going to give
34:45
you the best shoe and the
34:45
product and also other things
34:48
that you might need that you
34:48
might not even know you're
34:51
probably going to go to the
34:51
specialty and a lot of
34:53
podcasters I know are afraid of
34:53
niching down because they're
34:56
afraid of losing out on
34:56
potential listeners. They're
34:59
afraid of I'm pigeonholing
34:59
themselves into that one thing,
35:02
and I get that that makes sense.
35:02
But the truth is, it's going to
35:06
be so much easier to establish
35:06
your brand, it's going to be so
35:09
much less competition that you
35:09
have to worry about. And you can
35:12
become the go to person in that
35:12
micro world much, much faster.
35:16
And then you have options. When
35:16
you when you become known for
35:19
something, you have options. And
35:19
if you wanted to branch out, you
35:22
could I know some people who
35:22
started a podcast about
35:24
something super micro and then
35:24
they they start branching out,
35:27
right, it's one inch wide, one
35:27
mile deep. And now it's two
35:30
inches wide, one mile deep,
35:30
three inches wide, one mile
35:32
deep. But here's the funny
35:32
thing. Most of my podcasting
35:35
students who go niche first, to
35:35
become the go to person to
35:39
become that expert to become
35:39
well known in that space, they
35:43
end up liking it so much that
35:43
they just stay there and now
35:45
they're one inch wide, two mile
35:45
deep, one inch wide three mile
35:49
deep now in on top of a podcast,
35:49
and of course, they now have
35:54
events, they now have
35:54
masterminds, they now have a
35:57
paid membership community all
35:57
serving the same little space.
36:01
And of course, people who are
36:01
that niched and that connected
36:04
often find each other. And so
36:04
now what's going to happen is
36:07
your marketing is also going to
36:07
take care of itself, because
36:09
people who are within that small
36:09
little space typically find and
36:12
hang out with each other, and
36:12
they start talking, and then
36:16
they'll talk about you. Nobody
36:16
ever goes like oh, yeah, you're
36:22
running too cool. You should go
36:22
to Walmart to get your running
36:24
shoes. I go, No, there's a store
36:24
on convoy Street in San Diego
36:30
called Roadrunner. If you need
36:30
to run your marathon. That's
36:33
where you're going. Look out for
36:33
Brian, because he's the one who
36:35
helped me. Right. It's like,
36:35
that's how specific it can be.
36:39  Alban
We know that this works
36:39
in the product space. I mean, I
36:43
just had showed the switch pod.
36:43
But I think like three m, if I
36:48
asked someone, what does three n
36:48
make, most people are actually
36:51
going to stumble. Because they
36:51
make everything they go I don't
36:55
know what they're known for.
36:55
It's like, they make all the
36:57
sticky adhesive materials that
36:57
are pull things together. And
37:00
they make paints and solvents
37:00
and all sorts of stuff. But if I
37:05
say hey, what does squad cast
37:05
do? Anybody is in podcasting
37:09
knows, they help you record
37:09
audio and video long distance.
37:13
We're using it right now.
37:13
Because they do one thing and
37:17
they do it really well. And when
37:17
you occupy a single thing in
37:21
someone's mind, then they will
37:21
know what you do. And they have
37:25
the ability to easily explain
37:25
you to their friends and
37:28
everyone in their life. But if
37:28
you try to be everything,
37:31
because you think, Oh, now I
37:31
have more opportunities for
37:35
people to learn about me. You
37:35
just fade into the background
37:38
noise of life and they go, Oh,
37:38
yeah, I know the name Procter
37:42
and Gamble. I'm not really sure
37:42
what they do. Well, they do
37:44
everything in every store. But
37:44
you don't really know that brand
37:48
super well. Because when you do
37:48
everything you kind of do
37:51
nothing. That's so that's so
37:51
true.
37:53  Pat
That is absolutely key. So
37:53
start small start niche. This
37:58
speaks to an article that
37:58
actually inspired superfans that
38:01
I read back in the day called
38:01
1000 true fans by Kevin Kelly.
38:05
And he basically says, You don't
38:05
need a blockbuster hit to do
38:09
very, very well for yourself. If
38:09
you're a musician, an artist, an
38:11
entrepreneur, what have you, you
38:11
just need 1000 true fans. And
38:14
that's what I'd recommend for
38:14
podcasters, can you get just
38:17
your 1000 true fans, I mean,
38:17
start with 100 and then go up to
38:20
1000. That's really all you
38:20
need. Because if you imagine a
38:23
true fan, and this is what Kevin
38:23
Kelley says, if we do some math
38:25
here, a true fan being you know,
38:25
that person who's going to
38:28
literally listen to every
38:28
episode of yours, the moment it
38:30
comes out, or if you come out
38:30
with a product, they're buying
38:32
it before they even read the
38:32
sales page, or if they're, you
38:35
are going to be speaking at an
38:35
event somewhere, they're going
38:37
to drive eight hours because
38:37
it's just you know, they have to
38:41
that that's a super, that's a
38:41
true fan. That's a super fan. If
38:44
you imagine a super fan, paying
38:44
you for your art, your craft
38:48
your service, whatever it is
38:48
$100 a year, that's less than
38:50
$10 a month. That's all that's
38:50
all like low end. I know a lot
38:54
of people and myself included
38:54
who are fans of things who spend
38:57
way more money than that $100 a
38:57
year times 1000 true fans, you
39:01
have a six figure business,
39:01
that's your that's your $100,000
39:04
you know, taxes and all that
39:04
stuff aside, that's like really
39:07
impressive to understand that
39:07
you just need 1000 people. So
39:11
breaking this down even further.
39:11
That's a fan day for less than
39:15
three years.
39:17  Alban
That's crazy. That is
39:17
just those numbers. To think
39:20
that in three years, you could
39:20
be at $100,000 being making that
39:24
in your business. And all you
39:24
have to do is add one person who
39:27
really cares enough to pay $100
39:27
a year. Those numbers are
39:33
remarkable.
39:34  Pat
I mean, remember?
39:37  Alban
Yeah, then that's on the
39:37
low end. If we can shift gears
39:40
for a second. You have done some
39:40
awesome podcast interviews.
39:46
you've interviewed people. I
39:46
mean, just to quote a few Tim
39:48
Ferriss, Amy Porterfield, Gary
39:48
Vander Chuck, you've done tons
39:53
of these very cool interviews.
39:53
And I'd like to just pick your
39:58
brain about podcasting.
39:58
interviews first, how do you
40:01
identify who you want to
40:01
interview? And then how do you
40:05
go about pitching them and
40:05
bringing them onto the show?
40:07  Pat
Yeah, I mean, I think for
40:07
anybody out there, you want to
40:09
first think about the audience
40:09
and what's most valuable to
40:11
them. And that's often what I
40:11
think about. And now I'm at a
40:15
state where, you know, a lot of
40:15
people are coming to me. And
40:18
that's great. I say no more than
40:18
they say, Yes, for sure. But I
40:21
always consider, okay, well, how
40:21
does this benefit my audience?
40:24
How does this bring something
40:24
new, etc. Now, if you're just
40:27
starting out, what I'd recommend
40:27
is you come up with the themes
40:29
or the ideas that you feel would
40:29
be most helpful for your
40:31
audience. And then you try to
40:31
find people to support that
40:34
idea, to bring them in to be the
40:34
expert to talk about that thing,
40:39
because you might not be the
40:39
expert on that subject. Or maybe
40:41
you can have a conversation
40:41
about it. And you can both have
40:43
different perspectives or what
40:43
have you. So that's where I
40:46
would start with with
40:46
essentially the transformation
40:48
of the audience member in mind
40:48
first and then backing into
40:51
Okay, well, who might be able to
40:51
support that? Because honestly,
40:55
you know, yes, you mentioned Tim
40:55
Ferriss, Gary Vaynerchuk. A lot
40:58
of these big names, but my
40:58
highest downloaded podcast
41:02
episodes are episodes where
41:02
people don't even know who those
41:05
people are until they start
41:05
listening. Really example. Yeah,
41:09
Episode 122, with Jason, with
41:09
Shane and Jocelyn Sams, two
41:13
teachers from Kentucky, super
41:13
humble, super, you know, they
41:16
have the Kentucky accent. And
41:16
Shane told the story of when he
41:21
first heard of Smart Passive
41:21
income. He was on a lawn mower
41:24
and stopped mid mo to talk to
41:24
Jocelyn about what they're going
41:27
to do in their business to start
41:27
something. They ended up
41:29
quitting their jobs as teachers
41:29
to help teachers, and they now
41:34
have a multimillion dollar
41:34
business. And people got so
41:37
inspired by that, because those
41:37
two people Shane and Jocelyn
41:40
Sams were listeners just like
41:40
everybody else. And they just
41:43
took action versus when Tim
41:43
comes on. He's talking about all
41:46
his like biohacking and
41:46
whatever. And that's great. But
41:50
he's in, he's in a different
41:50
tier than everybody else
41:52
listening, right? It's
41:52
inspirational. It's exciting.
41:54
And it's, it's crazy. And it's
41:54
cool, because he's the author of
41:56
the four hour workweek. But at
41:56
the same time, it's like, oh,
41:59
well, that's Tim, of course, he
41:59
could do that. I don't know, I
42:02
could do that. So that episode
42:02
with Shane and Jocelyn Sams has
42:06
actually more downloads than
42:06
both Gary Vaynerchuk. And Tim
42:09
Ferriss episodes combined, like
42:09
that just tells you about it's
42:13
not about necessarily who you
42:13
have on the show. And yes, when
42:16
you have a celebrity on the
42:16
show, that does bring a little
42:17
clout, right, it helps you
42:17
increase your authority through
42:21
just Association, it does a
42:21
little bit, help your download
42:25
numbers. In most cases, however,
42:25
having the celebrities on the
42:27
show, they're not going to share
42:27
it, they've already been on
42:30
every other show. And if they
42:30
were to share everything, it
42:32
would just be too much noise for
42:32
their people. So I wouldn't even
42:34
expect that. But people who are
42:34
listening, who resonate with the
42:39
podcast, who love it, and who
42:39
want to share it, because it's
42:41
so helpful and so meaningful,
42:41
and so onpoint, that will give
42:46
you more downloads, in fact,
42:46
over time, so oftentimes, again,
42:51
I look for the story, not the
42:51
person.
42:54  Alban
So start with the
42:54
transformation that's going to
42:56
happen for your audience, think
42:56
about who can support that
43:00
transformation. And then you
43:00
reach out to them. Rather than
43:04
thinking, well, the most popular
43:04
person that I can imagine is
43:09
some political figure or
43:09
celebrity and trying to land
43:12
them and then hope that there's
43:12
a story there.
43:15  Pat
I mean, we're not Joe
43:15
Rogan, right. I mean, that's
43:18
that's Joe Rogan's position, and
43:18
he brings these celebrities on
43:21
and that in and of itself will
43:21
bring views before the regular
43:25
podcast or like us. It's about
43:25
the lessons and the
43:29
transformation. And the person
43:29
who can help best support that,
43:33
whether it's a solo show, and
43:33
it's you and your experiences,
43:35
or the stories you pull out from
43:35
somebody else and their
43:37
experiences. And I think that's
43:37
cool, because it makes
43:41
interviewing more accessible. It
43:41
makes interviewing more doable.
43:45
And oftentimes, we sometimes
43:45
stumble, or we might feel a
43:50
little bit a little bit of
43:50
anxiety, talking to somebody
43:53
who's, quote unquote, so high
43:53
profile versus talking to one of
43:56
your own students. In fact, if
43:56
one of if, like, let's say you
43:59
have a course for like LTE,
43:59
like, in my own example, Episode
44:03
275 of the Smart Passive Income
44:03
podcast, I interviewed three of
44:06
my students from power of
44:06
podcasting. And this was before
44:11
it launched publicly, I just
44:11
invited a couple beta students
44:13
on and I interviewed with Dr. B
44:13
was one of them Dr. Shannon
44:17
Ervin and then Robin Carrie from
44:17
Disney travel secrets podcast.
44:21
And I'll tell you, that was the
44:21
most profitable podcast episode
44:25
I'd ever published. Because not
44:25
only did I introduce people to
44:29
the course through that, but my
44:29
own students who took it, who
44:32
shared what life was like
44:32
before, which was exactly what
44:35
everybody else listening was
44:35
feeling. And now what life is
44:38
like after and how great it is,
44:38
and how many more people they
44:40
have in their audiences and how
44:40
their business has grown. 342%
44:44
that's what Rob said, as a
44:44
result of starting his podcast,
44:48
and the connector being me.
44:48
Well, now everybody wants to go
44:51
to where they went. And that was
44:51
through me. Now don't invite
44:54
your students or clients on to
44:54
an ask them questions like Hey,
44:57
tell me why my business was
44:57
awesome. Have that just now.
45:00
Come out from the juxtaposition
45:00
of what was life like before,
45:03
and how, how much of a struggle
45:03
it was, or what what the
45:05
challenges were. And then now,
45:05
what life is like what the
45:08
results of them like, you're
45:08
naturally going to come anyway.
45:11
And it becomes the most
45:11
beautiful testimonial. And you
45:14
already have access to these
45:14
people. And if you've already
45:16
helped these people, your
45:16
students, clients, customers,
45:19
etc, they're going to likely be
45:19
very, very, very, to say yes to
45:24
coming on the show, but also
45:24
making you look really, really
45:26
good. And I remember when we
45:26
sold a course, power podcasting,
45:30
the same week, that episode came
45:30
out, that's why we timed it that
45:33
way. That course did a quarter
45:33
million dollars in sales. Over
45:39
150k was, was connected back to
45:39
the podcast. Wow. We even had,
45:46
like, that's insane, right?
45:46
Like, that's insane. And we had
45:50
so many people email us and say,
45:50
Hey, I'm in your course. Now.
45:55
You can think Dr. B. She's the
45:55
one who convinced me. And I was
45:58
like, Oh, yes, this is this is
45:58
cool.
46:01  Alban
That's me that's so
46:01
affirming to hear that. Just
46:06
that that the power of people
46:06
hearing those stories, because
46:10
the stories that resonate with
46:10
us the most are the stories we
46:13
can see ourselves in. And I like
46:13
you're saying we I can't see
46:17
myself in Tim Ferriss shoes. You
46:17
know, I hear about all this
46:21
stuff. And it sounds like he's
46:21
so far away from the life that I
46:25
live. It's just, it's enjoyable,
46:25
but it's more fantasy than
46:28
reality. And if we hear somebody
46:28
like Dr. B, who says, I actually
46:33
don't really like tech, but I
46:33
got this mic, and I figured out
46:36
how to plug it together. And I
46:36
go Wait, I don't really like
46:39
tech, I don't understand how to
46:39
plug things together. Wait, this
46:42
is one of transformation that I
46:42
could go through. It's, there's
46:46
just so much power in that. Can
46:46
I ask how you prepare for these
46:50
interviews? You know that you're
46:50
going to interview? Maybe this
46:53
the celebrity? Maybe it is
46:53
somebody in your personal life
46:56
or a customer? How do you
46:56
prepare for those interviews?
47:01  Pat
I actually don't do a ton
47:01
of preparation, it's more of a
47:03
mental preparation in terms of
47:03
Okay, how am I going to be as
47:07
energetic as possible during the
47:07
interview as attentive as
47:10
possible? That's what I'm
47:10
preparing. I want to be
47:12
attentive so that I can be as
47:12
curious as possible. If I'm
47:16
tired, I'm not going to have as
47:16
great of an episode. So my
47:18
preparation is, how much energy
47:18
do I have? And I have I like
47:22
literally like, did I eat
47:22
healthy beforehand? Did I get a
47:26
lot of water beforehand, so I
47:26
can just be at the top of my
47:28
game, right? It's just this is a
47:28
sport to me and I got to
47:30
perform. But it's not
47:30
necessarily Okay, if I'm having
47:34
an author on I'm not going to
47:34
read their 10 books, and then be
47:38
able to have this like
47:38
intelligent conversation because
47:41
personally, I'm not a fan of
47:41
when I listen to a podcast
47:45
episode. And it sounds like
47:45
these two people are talking to
47:48
each other. And they're speaking
47:48
this language that I don't even
47:51
know yet. From an audience's
47:51
perspective, I would much rather
47:54
represent my audience. And if
47:54
I'm to represent my audience,
47:57
I'm not going to have read this
47:57
book yet. That's not to say, I
48:01
don't invite people on whose
48:01
book I've already read. But I
48:04
don't I don't do that kind of
48:04
preparation, that that that it's
48:07
not, I don't want to say over
48:07
the top. Again, this is just my
48:09
style. Other people have their
48:09
style. But number one, it saves
48:12
me a lot of time. And number
48:12
two, if I can just channel my
48:14
audience and I can ask questions
48:14
that they have. And my favorite
48:17
comment is when I get people to
48:17
go, Pat, you just seem to ask
48:21
the same questions that I'm
48:21
thinking and that's how I know
48:23
I'm doing it right. Because I'm
48:23
doing this again, on behalf of
48:25
inform my audience. Now, there
48:25
was a interview I did not too
48:30
long ago, here on squad cast
48:30
with Chris Voss, the author of
48:35
never split the difference. 23
48:35
year plus or something FBI,
48:40
hostage negotiator. Super, super
48:40
intense. And I was definitely
48:48
getting in my own head about
48:48
okay. This might be like, like,
48:52
this is an FBI negotiator. I'm
48:52
asking questions to you. I'm, in
48:56
fact, sort of like, you know,
48:56
negotiating with him to answer
48:59
these questions like this. I
48:59
just got in my own head about
49:01
it. And it started off a little
49:01
like, because I would ask
49:04
questions, and he would just
49:04
have like, you know, a sentence
49:06
to answer and then it would
49:06
pause. And I'd be like, Okay,
49:09
anyway, like, and I kept trying
49:09
to go a little bit deeper and
49:12
deeper. And all of a sudden,
49:12
like, 10 minutes in, we were
49:14
flowing, we were good. And
49:14
sometimes it just takes like
49:17
just getting started and
49:17
realizing that you just have to
49:19
have a conversation. And again,
49:19
me being very genuinely curious.
49:23
I think he appreciated some of
49:23
the questions I had and continue
49:26
to go deeper with. But it's
49:26
mostly an energy prep versus a
49:31
knowledge prep, to be honest,
49:31
like I again, I do know where I
49:34
want my audience to end up. And
49:34
that's important, because that
49:36
guides the questions that guides
49:36
most of the conversation,
49:40  Alban
you know, this
49:40
transformation that you're
49:42
hoping the audience goes
49:42
through, and then most of the
49:45
rest of the prep is making sure
49:45
you're in a healthy place so
49:49
that you can be totally focused.
49:49
And if the conversation goes one
49:54
way, and it's interesting that
49:54
you can keep going down that
49:56
road.
49:57  Pat
Yeah, I let it go down that
49:57
road every once in a while and
49:59
again, it's my job. As the host
49:59
to steer the boat, if you will.
50:03
And sometimes we go off course.
50:03
And, you know, I have to judge
50:06
and understand, okay, how might
50:06
the audience feel about this?
50:09
And do I think they want to keep
50:09
going? Or do I think we want to
50:12
get back on, obviously, I don't
50:12
want to leave anything hanging,
50:15
I don't want to promise
50:15
something and then not deliver
50:17
on that. That's not cool. So I
50:17
often have a notepad near me in
50:21
case a person who I'm speaking
50:21
to, has a lot of great things to
50:25
say. But then they kind of move
50:25
on. But I still want to close
50:27
the loop somewhere. I take
50:27
notes, just scribbles as I'm as
50:31
I'm going, but I never have
50:31
questions ahead of time. And
50:34
even if a person asks me to
50:34
prepare questions ahead of time,
50:37
I say No, really. And if they
50:37
insist, then I say, Fine. Here
50:41
are some questions I may ask,
50:41
but I promise you, I'm not going
50:45
to stick to these questions.
50:45
Because I don't want to have
50:48
that, then anybody can host the
50:48
show. It's not my show anymore.
50:52
It's anybody who reads these
50:52
questions that's hosting the
50:55
show. So that that's kind of how
50:55
I approach it. One of the
50:58
questions I literally wrote
51:00  Alban
out now I know I have to
51:00
read it, because the way you
51:02
said it, you do a great job of
51:02
teasing out interesting stories
51:05
and facts that may not come out
51:05
and and or other interviews, how
51:07
do you prepare for these? And so
51:07
I love to know that the way
51:10
you're preparing is you're not
51:10
preparing those questions in
51:13
advance. And it's rather driven
51:13
by genuine curiosity, that it's
51:18
actually hearing something
51:18
going, Oh, wait, that's probably
51:21
something that my listeners
51:21
heard. And they will want to
51:25
actually learn more about
51:27  Pat
Yeah, I mean, honestly,
51:27
there was an interview I did
51:29
with somebody, it may have been
51:29
Jordan Harbinger, who I know has
51:32
been on here before, where I
51:32
thought it was gonna be about
51:35
one thing. And then he ends up
51:35
talking about this thing called
51:39
the layoff Lifeline as a result
51:39
of what he was talking about,
51:43
and I just was like, lay off
51:43
lifeline. What is that? And we
51:45
started talking about it. And we
51:45
spent the next 45 minutes
51:47
talking about that it was it's
51:47
probably one of the most useful
51:49
things I've ever learned from
51:49
him. He and I are good friends
51:52
with both advisors just wide
51:52
cast, in fact, and I used that
51:56
in presentations. Now I've
51:56
mentioned it and have credited
51:59
him with that. But if I just
51:59
stuck to the script, that would
52:03
have never happened.
52:04  Alban
Can you tell me quickly
52:04
what is the layoff Lifeline?
52:07
Because if I don't ask that now
52:07
that everybody watching this,
52:10
like lose it,
52:11  Pat
you're doing exactly the
52:11
way I like, this is perfect. So
52:16
the reason this is important is
52:16
because when I brought Jordan on
52:18
the show, he had just gotten
52:18
basically kicked out of his own
52:21
podcast and business. He had a
52:21
show called The Art of Charm,
52:24
his partner's essentially kicked
52:24
him to the curb. And he was kind
52:28
of left on the streets, which
52:28
was not cool at all. I won't go
52:32
into the story more than that.
52:32
But what happened was, Jordan
52:36
was left needing some help. And
52:36
he called on his friends to
52:38
help. He texted me and texted
52:38
several other people. And every
52:42
single person he texted, help
52:42
them out. In his time of need,
52:47
he got laid off, and he had some
52:47
lifelines. And it was because
52:50
for years, for example, with
52:50
Jordan Nye, we connected at an
52:53
event once he followed up, and
52:53
literally like, every two
52:57
months, every three months, he
52:57
sent me an email, he sent me a
52:59
text message just checking in
52:59
and it's not like, hey, Pat, I
53:02
have this podcast episode that
53:02
just came out of left free to
53:04
share it for me. It's like, Hey,
53:04
I saw on your Instagram that you
53:07
went to Disneyland. Like how was
53:07
that? And it's just like, Oh, it
53:11
was cool. Like, how are you? How
53:11
are you doing and we've just
53:13
stayed in connection. what he
53:13
was doing was he was building as
53:17
well before he was thirsty,
53:17
building these relationships, to
53:21
the point where when he really
53:21
needed some water, we were all
53:24
there to support them. And
53:24
that's building your layoff
53:28
Lifeline such that if you were
53:28
to get laid off, you have people
53:32
who you could reach out to and
53:32
and and who could advocate for
53:36
you and who can help you in your
53:36
time of need. It's not and he
53:40
This is the story. He told him
53:40
in the podcast episode I did
53:43
that I remember because it made
53:43
me chuckle but he was like,
53:46
yeah, it's that's the difference
53:46
between that and like somebody
53:48
who you haven't heard of for
53:48
five years reaching out to you
53:50
and being like, Hey, I know we
53:50
haven't chatted for a while but
53:53
I have this ebook about dog
53:53
training. I think the public
53:56
Like Share it with your
53:56
audience. For me.
53:58  Alban
It's an E book or it's
53:58
Herbalife or something is a
54:01
multi level marketing.
54:03  Pat
I don't know. But anyway,
54:03
that's, that's the lay of
54:06
lifeline. And so one thing that
54:06
I love to do now, and I've done
54:08
this live on stage before, at
54:08
Flynn con in San Diego, I did
54:12
this live as a demo. And it was
54:12
so cool. I told everybody to
54:15
turn their phone on, like off of
54:15
silent like let's let's turn on
54:19
our phones. And everybody turned
54:19
on their phones are like what's
54:22
going on? And I said go to your
54:22
text message, app, and scroll
54:27
all the way to the bottom. And
54:27
for the bottom 10 people, the
54:30
people that you haven't reached
54:30
out to for who knows how long
54:34
send a message to say, hey, just
54:34
checking in seeing how you're
54:36
doing what's going on. And all
54:36
of a sudden, within like a
54:40
minute, bing, bing, bing, bing,
54:40
bing, bing, like all throughout
54:43
the conference. And it was so
54:43
cool, because like when I told
54:46
everybody to put the phones off
54:46
again, like not everybody did it
54:50
and every every, like 30 minutes
54:50
one would go off and I'd be
54:52
like, there's a connection that
54:52
was just made. And it's like so
54:55
cool, because I heard stories
54:55
from people who were like, yeah,
54:57
I didn't even know my friend is
54:57
in San Diego right now. And
55:00
we're going out to get dinner
55:00
tomorrow, like, those
55:03
connections can happen all the
55:03
time, we just forget about them.
55:07
And we've just kind of, we kind
55:07
of stay in this cycle of like,
55:10
only focused on the thing that's
55:10
right in front of you, when many
55:13
times we got to like, dig your
55:13
well before we're thirsty. And
55:15
that's one way to do it.
55:17  Alban
Yeah, I love those
55:17
stories. I feel like it's so
55:21
much fun to reconnect with
55:21
people, and kind of learn more
55:25
about how what's happening in
55:25
their lives. And we do all know
55:29
there, you have people in your
55:29
life who you know, when they're
55:32
reaching out that it means they
55:32
need something, they want
55:35
something, and a naturally get
55:35
this kind of defensive posture.
55:39
But if you are one of the people
55:39
who's reaching out and just
55:42
reconnecting because you
55:42
genuinely like people, and you
55:45
want to be friends, then if you
55:45
ever need that moment where you
55:50
need something, or you maybe
55:50
just need a helping hand,
55:53
they're going to be there
55:53
because they know you're not in
55:55
it just for a favor, you're in
55:55
the relationship because you
55:59
actually care about them
55:59
genuinely,
56:01  Pat
exactly. So go do that
56:01
exercise, everybody.
56:05  Alban
I love that I would love
56:05
if you are watching this on
56:07
YouTube. do that now and then
56:07
leave us a comment about what
56:11
happens when you reconnect to
56:11
the person at the very bottom of
56:14
all of your text messages. So
56:14
can I ask you Is there ever been
56:18
a time an interview has just
56:18
gone off the rails, you're
56:21
halfway through the interview,
56:21
and you realize it's not going
56:25
in a direction that you like,
56:25
and you're not sure you're going
56:27
to be able to salvage it?
56:29  Pat
Gotcha. Because there's
56:29
been times when I'm
56:31
interviewing, and then all of a
56:31
sudden, I lose internet power
56:33
goes down. And that's off the
56:33
rails as well. But but more of,
56:37
and there's been times when I
56:37
forgot to hit record. And then I
56:39
realized this after having
56:39
scheduled and done the
56:42
conversation, that's not cool
56:42
either. So that that's not cool.
56:45
But there's been a couple times
56:45
where I will do an interview,
56:47
and it's just like, this is dry.
56:47
This person's not all here
56:51
today. And I just know that my
56:51
artist isn't going to like
56:56
really be engaged with this. So
56:56
you have some decisions to make
57:01
when you record an episode like
57:01
that. Do you publish it anyway?
57:04
Because you feel bad that you've
57:04
scheduled this thing? And it
57:08
would be weird if you didn't.
57:08
But you also have an obligation
57:11
to your audience to publish
57:11
content that you know is helpful
57:13
and is to your level of
57:13
standard. So what do you do? So
57:17
one time, thankfully, this was a
57:17
friend, I reached out to him and
57:20
I said, yo, and I this is what I
57:20
always do. I'm like, you know, I
57:23
think it was me. Maybe it was
57:23
you? I don't know. But I just
57:26
didn't feel a good conversation
57:26
when we had our podcasts
57:29
recorded yesterday. And I really
57:29
listened to it. It just feels
57:32
like our energy wasn't there.
57:32
Like maybe I just didn't ask the
57:35
best questions. But if you if
57:35
you don't mind, I'd love to try
57:37
one more time. And I promise I'm
57:37
going to make it more exciting.
57:40
And if there's anything I can do
57:40
to help you like, let me know.
57:43
And that was with Clay Collins,
57:43
one of the founders of lead
57:45
pages. And I think it was
57:45
Episode 285 No, I don't know I I
57:52
know a lot of the episodes, but
57:52
not all of them. I've been
57:55  Alban
pretty impressed. You've
57:55
quoted three different episode
57:58
numbers. And I was like, how is
57:58
he pulling these out? Remember
58:02
200 episodes ago, getting good
58:02
numbers.
58:06  Pat
But we re recorded it. And
58:06
it ended up becoming the most
58:10
fastest downloaded podcast we
58:10
ever had. It ended up getting
58:14
300,000 downloads in about two
58:14
weeks, which is insane. And
58:19
again, it made me very grateful
58:19
that we both kind of went back
58:22
at it and tried to do it better.
58:22
We ended up repositioning it and
58:26
making it more exciting for both
58:26
of us really is is really what
58:28
we did. Another time this
58:28
happened with a person who
58:31
wasn't necessarily a friend who
58:31
I was afraid to just reach out
58:34
to and go, yeah, that wasn't
58:34
good. I'm not going to publish
58:36
this. So here's what I did. I
58:36
got a little creative. There was
58:40
a moment in the middle that was
58:40
decent. Like he said something
58:44
based on an answer that was
58:44
actually quite useful. It was
58:46
like the one time and I reached
58:46
out to this guy and I said, Hey,
58:52
there was a part in the middle
58:52
that got me really excited. So
58:56
excited, in fact, that I ended
58:56
up changing the entire episode,
58:59
like I'm gonna play your clip,
58:59
to your answer to my question in
59:03
the beginning. And I made the
59:03
whole episode about that. Thank
59:05
you so much for inspiring this
59:05
because this is gonna be even
59:07