Buzzcast

Buzzcast is a roundtable discussion about podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout. We'll cover current events and news, podcast strategy, tools we are using, and dip into the Customer Support mailbag to test our podcasting knowledge. If you want to stay up-to-date on what's working in podcasting, Buzzcast is the show for you.

https://buzzcast.buzzsprout.com/

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episode 49: Spotify just passed Apple Podcasts (and why it matters) [transcript]


In this episode we break down the Buzzsprout global stats from March (hint: Spotify is the new #1 app), discuss Podcorn's recent acquisition, and have some fun with a 3D podcast audience graph.

Check out Buzzsprout's Global Stats for March 2021 and see what else Buzzcast listeners are subscribed to.

Other links from today's episode

  • Alban's interview with Agnes Kozera [Video]
  • Podcorn Review and Walkthrough [Blog]
  • Rephonic's Podcast Audience Graph
  • Subscribe to the Buzzsprout YouTube channel


Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-04-09  38m
 
 
00:00  Travis
You're not yet
00:00
subscribed to our YouTube
00:01
channel, make sure you do that
00:01
help us hit 60,000 subscribers
00:04
as quickly as possible, throw a
00:04
party or a pizza, we'll throw a
00:07
pizza party in your honor. When
00:07
you when you help us get there.
00:10
I'm just gonna,
00:11  Alban
you're gonna cut the
00:11
pizza party.
00:17
So Kevin, our global stats
00:17
finally paid off,
00:20  Kevin
they paid off. I didn't
00:20
know this was a money Money
00:22
Making venture.
00:23  Alban
But it's not paid off in
00:23
cash. It's still net negative.
00:27
But at least they've gotten some
00:27
they've got some traction. We
00:32
hit two milestones when we
00:32
updated our latest global stats
00:36
page. And our grand scheme is
00:36
like finally come together.
00:42  Kevin
Okay. Tell me that remind
00:42
me of the grand scheme again.
00:45  Alban
Okay. The grand scheme
00:45
was. I mean, I think one of the
00:49
things that was always
00:49
interesting to us was there's
00:52
always this podcast data that
00:52
was like floating around in the
00:54
world, and often didn't jive
00:54
with the numbers that we had at
00:59
Buzzsprout. And so he said,
00:59
well, let's just publish our own
01:03
data. And, you know, see what,
01:03
you know, see what people think
01:08
on it. We'll show what we see on
01:08
Buzzsprout. And it will help
01:11
journalists, they'll help the
01:11
industry, it will help our own
01:14
podcasters kind of get some
01:14
info. And we kind of hit some
01:18
milestones. And I feel like now
01:18
people are talking about it and
01:21
noticing it. And it's kind of
01:21
gotten some interesting
01:23
conversation started.
01:25  Kevin
Yeah, I think you're
01:25
you're talking specifically
01:27
about Spotify jumping Apple,
01:27
right?
01:30  Alban
Yeah. So we hit two big
01:30
milestones, Spotify crossed
01:33
Apple, but then we also hit
01:33
100,000 active podcasts on
01:38
Buzzsprout. Which, if you told
01:38
us five years ago that would
01:41
ever happen. We would have
01:41
laughed. I don't think we ever
01:43
thought that was even a
01:43
possibility. Yeah. But yeah, I
01:46
mean, the big one is, yeah,
01:46
Spotify past Apple,
01:50  Kevin
right? which is
01:50
surprising. It's concerning,
01:55
right? Because we're on a show
01:55
right now, that doesn't push to
01:57
Spotify. So like, how big of an
01:57
audience are we missing out on?
02:01  Alban
Apparently? Is our apple
02:01
podcasts or something like it?
02:05  Kevin
Yeah. close to half, our
02:05
downloads are probably half what
02:09
they could be if we were
02:09
publishing to Spotify. Now. I
02:11
mean, I don't know how true that
02:11
is. I think it depends a lot on
02:14
the type of show that you do. So
02:14
we know that Spotify is
02:18
demographics, overall sort of
02:18
trend a little bit younger. I we
02:22
have no idea what the
02:22
demographics for this show are.
02:25
But I imagine that there's
02:25
probably not a ton of 18 to 24
02:29
year olds that are listening to
02:29
a bunch of old guys talking
02:35
about podcasting. Hope we pass
02:35
them good old, Travis's, the
02:39
young, young, one of the group,
02:39
Speak for yourself.
02:43  Alban
We were you were two
02:43
years younger when you started
02:46
this podcast.
02:47  Travis
That is true. That's
02:47
true. Well,
02:50  Kevin
I think I think we
02:50
publish these numbers. So we
02:53
don't we don't hide anything. We
02:53
try to be as transparent as
02:55
possible. And there's been some
02:55
people who were in the
03:00
podcasting industry, other
03:00
podcasts host journalists, who
03:03
were saying like, this is
03:03
different than what other hosts
03:07
are reporting what we're seeing
03:07
in our numbers. And there's a
03:09
couple different explanations,
03:09
right? One Buzzsprout, we've got
03:14
our numbers totally wrong.
03:14
Right. Like our mistake,
03:17  Alban
well cut that don't put
03:17
that in there.
03:19  Kevin
I mean, it's possibility.
03:19
I don't think that's true. But
03:21
yeah, it's definitely a
03:21
possibility. Another possibility
03:26
is that the the shows that
03:26
happened to be using Buzzsprout
03:30
as their podcasting platform are
03:30
skewing more towards whatever
03:35
type of people use Spotify. So
03:35
again, I'm not. I don't know
03:40
exactly what that demo looks
03:40
like, except that I think it
03:42
skews a little bit younger. And
03:42
so our shows just could be more
03:45
attractive to people on those on
03:45
those platforms. It's possible
03:49
that people on our platform, are
03:49
more interested in Spotify, and
03:54
like promoting that as the place
03:54
to listen to their podcast. So
03:58
whatever marketing efforts that
03:58
they're they're doing, they're
04:00
pushing more people towards
04:00
Spotify than other third party
04:03
apps or Apple podcasts. And then
04:03
the last one, which is I think,
04:08
it could be a combination of a
04:08
couple of these, like, our
04:11
audience, our type of shows. And
04:11
I think it's very possible that
04:14
the way that other podcast hosts
04:14
have been tracking numbers for a
04:17
long time, or attributing a lot
04:17
more plays to Apple podcasts,
04:21
then, we believe is the most
04:21
accurate way to attribute plays
04:24
towards Apple podcasts. So, as
04:24
we've talked about on the show,
04:28
many times in the past, we
04:28
changed that number back in what
04:31
was October, November, we
04:31
stopped counting apps that you
04:35
were using an apple API called
04:35
apple core media. They were
04:39
using that but they weren't
04:39
specifically they weren't
04:41
crystal clear that they were
04:41
Apple podcasts. Those used to be
04:44
counted as Apple podcast plays,
04:44
they are no longer counted as
04:46
Apple podcast plays. And I
04:46
believe other hosts in the space
04:49
are still attributing those
04:49
types of plays to Apple
04:52
podcasts, which would
04:52
significantly skew your numbers.
04:55
It was it's somewhere between 15
04:55
and 20%. So if our numbers were
04:58
15 to 20% higher on the apple
04:58
side than Spotify would still
05:02
have a long way to go before
05:02
they caught up. But we made that
05:06
change because we feel like it's
05:06
more accurate. I don't think
05:08
others in the space have made
05:08
that change. Yeah.
05:11  Alban
Can we go through each of
05:11
your possibilities? Because
05:14
maybe this is a big deal. If
05:14
Spotify actually passes Apple we
05:17
need we should talk about those
05:17
implications. But yeah, can you
05:20
just go through those four
05:20
reasons why it may have
05:22
happened? One by one? Sure.
05:22
Alright, so number one, why do
05:26
we think that the Buzzsprout
05:26
numbers are not wrong? Why I
05:29
mean, that's the easiest
05:29
explanation.
05:32  Kevin
Better. What is that? Why
05:32
do we think that they're right?
05:34
There I be certified. So yeah,
05:34
we did go through iba
05:36
certification. This is the way
05:36
that we run our company is that
05:40
our we have, there's three
05:40
founders. But you know, myself,
05:46
but I run more like front end
05:46
stuff. Tom, who's been on the
05:49
show many times. He's our
05:49
technical co founder. So he runs
05:52
all the technical stuff. He's
05:52
the one that actually did the IB
05:54
certification process, he leads
05:54
all the technical development on
05:57
our stats and everything that
05:57
makes Buzzsprout run. And he's
06:00
also very much involved in the
06:00
podcasting space in general. So
06:04
he goes on podcast, let knows
06:04
everything about it. And I think
06:07
it's a little bit different than
06:07
what we see in some other
06:09
companies. I'm not speaking for
06:09
all companies, but some other
06:12
companies in the hosting space,
06:12
they have technical teams, and
06:15
they kind of run the background,
06:15
but they're like, the
06:17
programmers are not necessarily
06:17
podcasters. And they have more
06:19
forward facing like public
06:19
facing figures who are more into
06:22
podcasting and understand
06:22
podcasting, but they're
06:24
different people. One of the
06:24
things that's unique about
06:26
Buzzsprout is that we have Tom
06:26
in this role, who does both like
06:30
he understands the front end, he
06:30
understands the back end, he
06:32
understands the code, he
06:32
understands IV certification, he
06:34
understands, he speaks with, you
06:34
know, journalists all the time.
06:38
Like he's, he's in the whole
06:38
thing. And he's actually a
06:41
really good coder at the same
06:41
time. So I think that puts us in
06:44
a pretty unique position to be
06:44
able to provide a high level of
06:47
assurance when we say there's
06:47
somebody who's really in this,
06:50
who really understands it, who
06:50
lives it on all sides, is in
06:54
charge of our stats package, I
06:54
feel very confident in in that
06:59
we're in a good position.
06:59
They're not saying that there's
07:01
not other companies that have
07:01
something very similar. I do
07:04
know of a couple. And then I
07:04
know of a couple that are under
07:07
very different and a couple of
07:07
the bigger ones are very
07:09
different that they have, you
07:09
know, more public facing people.
07:12
And then they have either
07:12
contractors or technical teams
07:14
that are more separate.
07:15  Alban
So one, we feel good,
07:15
because Tom's The one who has
07:19
been working on I mean, we have
07:19
the same person who's been
07:22
working on this for 12 years,
07:22
and is the person who built all
07:26
these reports, and is helping
07:26
make these determinations,
07:30
obviously, with his whole team
07:30
and understands the podcasting
07:34
space. So it's not just like,
07:34
oh, he's coming in, he's trying
07:37
to interpret data that set up
07:37
yours, you know, by somebody
07:39
else. Tom worked with Spotify,
07:39
in figuring out how to do pass
07:45
through. And so when he did
07:45
that, he understood that spec so
07:48
he knows how to track those
07:48
plays correctly. He worked with
07:51
the IEP team to get Buzzsprout
07:51
certified that and when we did
07:55
that he had done all the work.
07:55
They wanted years prior to
08:01
comply with their standard.
08:01
Well, before we ever saw
08:04
certification that we didn't
08:04
change anything. Right. And it
08:07
was just a rubber stamp.
08:09  Kevin
That's right. There's
08:09
very little hearsay that happens
08:11
on the Buzzsprout side. So it's
08:11
not like it's the three of us
08:14
talking about what we're seeing
08:14
in our stats. And then a
08:17
question comes up, and we've got
08:17
to go talk to a programmer, then
08:19
come back and say, well, the
08:19
programmers are telling us this,
08:21
like we are, the way that we run
08:21
our company is that the people
08:25
who you see in here and write
08:25
blog posts and seeing videos,
08:29
those are the people doing the
08:29
work, the people who show up at
08:32
the conferences, are the people
08:32
doing the work, there's no,
08:34
there's not a lot of tech team
08:34
behind stuff like when Alvin's
08:36
favorite things to do at
08:36
conferences, when somebody comes
08:38
up and says, Hey, I love this
08:38
feature, and you sell time,
08:40
he'll say, Oh, well, here's
08:40
Dave. He's the guy who designed
08:42
it. Here's john. He's the guy
08:42
who programmed it. And here's
08:44
Tom, he's, you know, set up all
08:44
the servers to make that happen.
08:47
And so it's not there's no
08:47
passing the buck around. The
08:50
people who are talking about the
08:50
work and are bringing the news
08:53
forward and sharing it with the
08:53
world are the people who are
08:55
also writing the code and
08:55
creating the interfaces and
08:59
everything else.
09:00  Alban
Yeah, so we feel good
09:00
that we are accurately reporting
09:03
what place we are getting. Now,
09:03
this one feels very obvious to
09:09
me that this is at least
09:09
somewhat The case is that
09:12
different hosts have different
09:12
distributions. You know, we all
09:15
cater to slightly different
09:15
audiences. I would imagine that
09:19
anchor, for example, especially
09:19
because of their relationship
09:22
with Spotify would be heavily
09:22
favoring Spotify place. They
09:28
also have a lot of newer
09:28
podcasts and podcasts may not be
09:32
as well established, so much
09:32
more likely that they would be
09:36
heavy Spotify. Any host like
09:36
maybe spreaker, who is actually
09:42
has their app translated to
09:42
Spanish probably has a lot more
09:46
Spanish speaking podcasts. And
09:46
all the data that we've seen
09:50
over time is that Spotify has
09:50
done a really good job of
09:53
getting into Latin America in
09:53
particular, for a lot of Spanish
09:57
speaking countries and helping
09:57
people Get into podcasting. So I
10:02
could see spreaker being Spotify
10:02
heavy band, maybe a host like
10:07
Lipson that has been around
10:07
since 2004, might be much more
10:12
weighted towards older podcasts
10:12
and podcasts that grew up when
10:16
iTunes was really the only
10:16
directory. So I could see how we
10:21
all are skewed differently. And
10:21
I would totally expect it. So
10:25
I'm sure that's a piece. What
10:25
kind of blows my mind is when I
10:30
had a little Facebook exchange
10:30
with Todd Cochran from
10:32
blueberry. And he was seeming to
10:32
say, he's never seen Spotify,
10:36
even eight or 9%. So hopefully,
10:36
he will share some of their
10:40
numbers at some point, so we can
10:40
kind of compare them but, you
10:45
know, hearing that I'm like,
10:45
Wow, those are, that's really
10:48
different. I mean, Spotify
10:48
passed that in like a year or
10:52
two of having being out in the
10:52
out in the wild. They passed
10:57
that very quickly for
10:57
Buzzsprout. And it's kind of
10:59
surprising for me to hear a host
10:59
like blueberry, it, they're
11:02
still only eight or 9%.
11:04  Kevin
Right? Now you have to
11:04
remember when you go to do
11:08
directory submission through
11:08
Buzzsprout. And probably most
11:11
other hosts as well, it's pretty
11:11
similar is that to submit your
11:14
podcast to Spotify is one click
11:14
and probably about five minutes.
11:17
Like as soon as you have all the
11:17
required information, your your
11:20
show title, your description,
11:20
your artwork, at least one
11:23
episode. Once you have all that
11:23
basic stuff set, you click one
11:26
button, and then within five
11:26
minutes, you're in Spotify,
11:28
there's no big approval process,
11:28
there's no need to validate your
11:31
feed, like that all happens on
11:31
the back end, they've got a more
11:35
modern system of submitting, and
11:35
there's no human curation,
11:38
right? Yeah, Apple is very
11:38
different. Apple, you have to
11:42
have what is an apple id, you
11:42
have to be able to login, you
11:45
have to pass the validation
11:45
system, which is intermittent at
11:50
best of how well it's working on
11:50
any given day. And then once you
11:54
get through that, then it goes
11:54
into an approval process, they
11:56
have some sort of human or
11:56
funeral approval process on
11:59
their end, it can take anywhere
11:59
from two or three days, up to a
12:03
couple of weeks. And so you
12:03
wonder how many people who are
12:07
getting started on Buzzsprout.
12:07
And we've grown a lot in the
12:10
last year. So there's a lot of
12:10
people but how many people have
12:12
gotten too stuck somewhere in
12:12
that process. And I've never
12:14
finished it or gotten the
12:14
approval or whatever. And so it
12:19
could be significant. And that's
12:19
the number that we could pull to
12:22
because when we when somebody
12:22
does complete napal submission,
12:25
and they're in that directory
12:25
than we do get a notification on
12:27
the back end. So we know that
12:27
they're listed there, we could
12:30
compare like how many shows we
12:30
have total versus how many are
12:32
listed in Apple podcasts versus
12:32
how many are listed in Spotify.
12:35
I don't have any of those
12:35
numbers available today. But
12:37
it'd be interesting to look at.
12:37
But I do think that could play
12:39
into some of what we're seeing
12:39
as well is that we probably have
12:42
a lot more podcasts that are
12:42
just available on Spotify,
12:44
especially newer podcasts that
12:44
have launched in the last year.
12:47  Alban
Okay, I this is this just
12:47
occurred to me for the first
12:50
time. So this is on the fly. One
12:50
other thing was when Spotify
12:55
first opened up and said, if
12:55
anybody wants to get their
12:58
podcast into Spotify, submit it
12:58
in this manual process had to be
13:04
given to them in like a CSV
13:04
sheet. So we had to collect
13:08
podcast info and give it to them
13:08
when they wanted to do that.
13:12
That day, I wrote a blog post
13:12
about submitting a podcast to
13:16
Spotify. And we had a good three
13:16
month period where we outranked
13:20
Spotify pages on how to get into
13:20
Spotify. So the top two results
13:25
were Buzzsprout. I'm kind of
13:25
looking back at this data. And I
13:28
remember that was a big growth
13:28
bump for Buzzsprout was people
13:32
trying to get into Spotify, and
13:32
they knew we had a way to do it.
13:35
I wonder if maybe that we had
13:35
that period, and this is now
13:40
three or four years ago, I
13:40
wonder if maybe that we got a
13:43
large number of people who are
13:43
very early to getting into
13:47
Spotify. And maybe that skews
13:47
our numbers a bit as well, that
13:50
we kind of rode that wave to
13:50
getting a lot of podcasts that
13:54
ended up succeeding in pot and
13:54
Spotify because they were very
13:57
early. Yeah. So that so all that
13:57
to say, there's a good reason to
14:01
thank the we all would not be
14:01
the same. If you one of your
14:05
favorite podcasts is This
14:05
American Life, like it is for
14:08
me, it's pretty common for you
14:08
know, that show grew up when
14:13
iTunes was the primary
14:13
directory. And so probably a lot
14:17
of people were listening on
14:17
iTunes, which became Apple
14:20
podcast. So it's totally
14:20
reasonable that podcast hosts
14:24
that have shows like that would
14:24
be more skewed towards apple. I
14:29
just think the difference we're
14:29
seeing between, you know, where
14:33
we see them, right neck and neck
14:33
almost at 30%. And every but
14:36
some people see them as like
14:36
Apple 50 and Spotify eight, that
14:41
those numbers still feel like
14:41
there's more to be figured out.
14:46
So the third thing you said,
14:46
Kevin is all the hosts can be
14:50
different. But maybe the other
14:50
hosts are computing the stats
14:54
differently and you kind of got
14:54
into that a little bit right? Is
14:57
there any more you want to say
14:57
Besides, they may AB checking
15:01
these apple core media plays and
15:01
putting them in differently.
15:05  Kevin
Well, I mean, nobody
15:05
talks about it. So how do we
15:07
know? Like we talked about it,
15:07
because we just want to be
15:12
accurate, you know, and we also
15:12
don't have a lot of ego in the
15:15
game. We're not going out there.
15:15
And like, if we're getting
15:18
something wrong, we want to
15:18
know, so that we can make it
15:20
better. Everyone doesn't kind of
15:20
follow that same mentality, and
15:25
they kind of keep their numbers,
15:25
you know, more closed. I don't,
15:28
I don't know what the heck the
15:28
deal is. But if somebody is
15:31
gonna come out and Facebook and
15:31
post in a group and say, you
15:34
know, that's strange, or that
15:34
doesn't like, well explain it,
15:37
like, Do you have something to
15:37
say or don't you?
15:39  Alban
Have you guys ever heard
15:39
of Cunningham's law?
15:41  Kevin
No, it's Cunningham's
15:41
law.
15:42  Alban
Cunningham's law is the
15:42
best way to get the right answer
15:46
on the internet is to not to ask
15:46
a question. It's to post the
15:50
wrong answer. So you post,
15:50
Spotify passes Apple, and like,
15:56
if you'd ever said, Hey, is
15:56
Spotify ahead? No, but ever
15:58
listened to you? People just
15:58
ignore you. But do you say
16:01
Spotify just past apple? And
16:01
then all of a sudden, everyone
16:04
comes out? They're like, No,
16:04
you're wrong here. And we're
16:07
like, Okay, cool. So we can
16:07
finally have a discussion about
16:11
where it is. So maybe this is a
16:11
little bit of Cunningham's law
16:15
coming into effect?
16:16  Kevin
Yeah. Well, I don't think
16:16
we are wrong. Like when it comes
16:19
down to the numbers that we're
16:19
reporting, we're reporting that
16:21
Apple has just been surpassed by
16:21
Spotify on the Buzzsprout.
16:25
platform. That's not wrong. What
16:25
could be wrong is that's that
16:29
that's indicative of podcast
16:29
overall, across all hosts. But
16:33
we never made that claim. But
16:33
people want to say, Well, if it
16:36
happened on Buzzsprout, it's
16:36
probably happening everywhere.
16:38
And that might not be true. But
16:38
I think it'd be an interesting
16:41
conversation to have, I think
16:41
that other podcast hosts should
16:44
look into their numbers should
16:44
book and how they're calculating
16:47
Apple podcast plays in what
16:47
they're attributing is an apple
16:50
podcast play versus what they
16:50
aren't. What they're seeing is
16:53
Spotify. And we should have this
16:53
conversation. Like, it's not a
16:55
competitive thing. It's not
16:55
like, you know, no one's going
16:59
to switch hosts, because you're
16:59
getting more plays on Spotify.
17:02
Like, isn't about that. It's
17:02
about like, trying to figure out
17:06
what's going on in the industry.
17:06
I mean, personally, I don't
17:08
think Spotify is a great player.
17:08
But if they're doing a really
17:12
good job of introducing a whole
17:12
new
17:15  Alban
generation of podcasters,
17:16  Kevin
yeah, they're introducing
17:16
all these new people to
17:19
podcasts. That's great,
17:19
regardless of whether what I
17:21
think the app is good or bad, or
17:21
indifferent, doesn't matter. So
17:26
yeah, I think we should all keep
17:26
talking about it. I know James
17:29
Kirtland dropped Tom, a really
17:29
good email with a bunch of
17:32
questions about how we're
17:32
calculating stats. And so I
17:34
think he's trying to put
17:34
something together. But I think
17:36
the conversation needs to
17:36
continue. And I would hope that
17:39
other podcast hosts in the space
17:39
instead of just like, looking
17:42
for an opportunity to take a jab
17:42
at somebody would just actually
17:45
contribute to a meaningful
17:45
conversation that we can all
17:48
benefit from.
17:49  Alban
I think one final
17:49
takeaway that I would have for
17:50
this is, if you're confused by
17:50
the differences, one thing you
17:55
can still use this data to tell
17:55
you is, how does my podcast on
18:01
Buzzsprout compare to other
18:01
podcasts on Buzzsprout. And you
18:05
can look, and if there's any
18:05
massive differences, like, it
18:10
looks like point 4% of plays are
18:10
on amazon music, but I've
18:13
actually never had a single
18:13
play, there might be a good
18:17
chance to go look and make sure
18:17
you're submitted, you know, and
18:20
check your directories page. So
18:20
you can kind of look through
18:23
there. And the whole goal of
18:23
that page is that we're not just
18:28
throwing guessing guesses in the
18:28
dark that we think is my podcast
18:32
doing well, well, you can go
18:32
look and see the average podcast
18:36
on Buzzsprout at least gets, you
18:36
know, 37 plays per episode, or
18:41
whatever the exact number is,
18:41
you can see it. And then you can
18:45
say, Oh, I'm doing a little bit
18:45
above that, that's awesome, I
18:47
can be proud of my work. Or you
18:47
can get an idea of Oh, I'm in
18:50
the top 25%. You know, we want
18:50
to be able to give you all that
18:54
information, so that you can get
18:54
a feel for how you're doing and
18:59
maybe spot some places to
18:59
improve. And, you know, it's all
19:05
it's also we can enjoy it and
19:05
learn more about our shows. And,
19:09
you know, continuing the
19:09
conversation, hearing how other
19:11
people's data is different.
19:11
We'll always be interesting to
19:14
hear. So I'm excited to see what
19:14
James writes it'll be nice to
19:17
see what other people think.
19:22  Travis
So in recent news, pod
19:22
corn, our good friends at pod
19:25
corn who are known for
19:25
connecting independent
19:27
podcasters with brands and
19:27
sponsors that want to sponsor
19:29
podcasts recently announced that
19:29
they have been acquired So
19:35
congrats to them. They are now
19:35
part of the Odyssey formerly
19:38
known as intercom team. Is that
19:38
correct? Yes, intercom team. So
19:43
they're joining other groups
19:43
like cadence 13 and pineapple
19:45
street studios. And audacity is
19:45
kind of creating this little
19:49
podcast tech slash creation
19:49
network ecosystem.
19:53  Kevin
Did you say audacity? I
19:53
think it's Odyssey. Right.
19:56  Travis
Odyssey Did I say
19:56
Audacity. It's all that PTSD
19:59
from an album. We got to a chair
19:59
for the how to start a podcast
20:02
video.
20:03  Alban
Yeah, for anybody, I
20:03
didn't see that we are promoting
20:06
audacity and Travis was the like
20:06
Hindenburg fanboy, who we had to
20:12
convince to talk about Audacity.
20:12
You could see this coming
20:17
because the co founders, Agnes
20:17
and Dave, yep. They were also
20:23
the co founders of a different
20:23
company that Google bought and
20:26
became FameBit. And so, you
20:26
know, it wasn't too surprising
20:30
to me to hear that they had been
20:30
acquired. It sounds like the
20:34
group there that they were
20:34
acquired by one of the things
20:37
that are doing is they're gonna
20:37
get a lot more brands into the
20:40
marketplace, which will be
20:40
really good. The more brands the
20:44
more podcasters out there, the
20:44
better chance you have of
20:48
landing a sponsorship deal. You
20:48
know, and it doesn't sound like
20:51
anything's gonna change from our
20:51
side, especially for our
20:53
podcasters The timing is
20:53
interesting for us. I mean, we
20:57
just did that interview with
20:57
Agnes casera, the co founder of
21:02
pod corn about how she
21:02
recommends pitching. And then I
21:06
just did an interview with
21:06
Courtney Fretwell. Who's a
21:11
Buzzsprout podcaster, who
21:11
actually is been sounds like
21:14
pretty successful pitching and
21:14
getting a lot of deals done on
21:18
popcorn. Travis, have you? Have
21:18
you had a chance to listen to
21:21
that while you're editing it? Or
21:21
when do you think the episode
21:25
will drop? So
21:26  Travis
that episode is gonna
21:26
drop a week from when this
21:29
episode drops. So that'll be
21:29
Friday, April 16, you'll be able
21:34
to watch that on our YouTube
21:34
channel or listen to it here in
21:36
Buzzcast. I have not yet had an
21:36
opportunity to, to jump into
21:40
that edit, but I'm sure it's
21:40
full, scintillating details and
21:45
wonderful hacks and tips and
21:45
tricks.
21:47  Alban
I don't know about
21:47
scintillating. But, I mean, it's
21:50
an interesting story, because I
21:50
mean, I'll give you the quick
21:54
synopsis. I'll give you the
21:54
trailer for this episode.
21:57
Courtney started a podcast
21:57
called forensic tales. She has a
21:59
degree in forensic science, and
21:59
was working for no local court
22:04
and she was in the court system.
22:04
And she keeps talking about
22:07
like, I love all these podcasts,
22:07
I should start one. And then her
22:11
fiance bought $1,000 podcasting
22:11
course for her and was like,
22:15
Alright, you keep saying do it.
22:15
And so she's like, Alright, I'll
22:18
do it. And she starts January of
22:18
2020. And by July goes, this is
22:25
awesome. I love it. You know,
22:25
I'm doing this podcast about
22:28
forensic science. And it's a
22:28
different crime every week. And
22:31
she went full time with her
22:31
podcast. So pretty bold move, I
22:36
think. And now it's almost been
22:36
doing it for a year. It is a
22:39
huge fan. But I got to talk to
22:39
her a lot about monetization,
22:43
because she seems to be using
22:43
pod corn really well. She's also
22:48
doing stuff with mirch. And was
22:48
doing stuff with Patreon. So
22:52
it's kind of built up three
22:52
different income streams from
22:54
her podcast. And it's just been
22:54
growing the show. And so we
22:59
talked a lot about, you know,
22:59
being an independent creator
23:02
deciding when to go full time,
23:02
how to monetize and make a
23:05
living, and just an interesting
23:05
conversation to have, because
23:09
we've had these conversations
23:09
with maybe some of the bigger
23:12
podcasts, which sometimes
23:12
they've got good information,
23:16
but it's not totally applicable.
23:16
If you're at a little bit, you
23:20
know, you're just starting out.
23:20
It's hard to hear from somebody
23:24
who started 10 years ago, but
23:24
Courtney now has only been
23:27
podcasting for what is it 17
23:27
months. And so it's nice to hear
23:33
from her. Here's the journey
23:33
I've gone on, and a lot has
23:36
changed in 17 months. And so a
23:36
lot of it will be very
23:40
applicable to anybody who's
23:40
listening to this podcast and
23:43
would get it their feed next
23:43
week.
23:45  Kevin
Yeah, so it's exciting.
23:45
And again, I will say I just
23:47
want to say congratulations to
23:47
pod corn, we've known them for
23:50
for quite a while. And I've
23:50
gotten to know David pretty
23:53
well. And we've got a great
23:53
partnership with them. We'd love
23:56
what they're doing. I was able
23:56
to hop on the phone with David
23:59
last week and just congratulate
23:59
him personally and talk about is
24:03
there anything we didn't know in
24:03
terms of changes in the
24:05
relationship between Buzzsprout
24:05
or how our Buzzsprout podcasters
24:09
would interact with popcorn,
24:09
none of that is changing. That's
24:11
not at all what this deal was
24:11
about, is really just about
24:16
expanding popcorns opportunity
24:16
to bring more brand advertising
24:21
into podcasting. And Odyssey has
24:21
the ability like the right
24:26
partner for them to be able to
24:26
do that. And so it's super
24:28
exciting. The opportunities that
24:28
you have, if you're already
24:30
using pod corn and you'd love
24:30
it. Great. You're hopefully
24:33
you're gonna see more. And if
24:33
you've checked out pod corn in
24:35
the past, and you haven't found
24:35
a brand in there that you feel
24:38
like would resonate well with
24:38
your audience. Well keep
24:40
checking, because now Odyssey is
24:40
going to be doing their part of
24:44
the partnership introducing more
24:44
and more brands to podcast
24:47
advertising. So we should see
24:47
that marketplace to grow. And so
24:50
I think it's super exciting. Our
24:50
partnership is super strong. And
24:54
we just we like how they
24:54
approach the idea of podcast
24:57
monetization, which is it's not
24:57
about tracking It's not about
25:00
programmatic ads just being
25:00
dropped in randomly. It's host
25:03
read, you have control, you have
25:03
a relationship with the brand,
25:06
you can set deals on your terms.
25:06
You know, it might not be right
25:10
for everybody, but we think it's
25:10
right for a lot of people. And
25:12
so and again, so Alvin had a
25:12
conversation. And so you'll hear
25:16
more about that next week after
25:16
this episode. But exciting stuff
25:20
for popcorn. Again,
25:20
congratulations to them from the
25:22
Buzzsprout team, and we hope
25:22
that they're serving you well,
25:24  Alban
yeah, we can drop a
25:24
handful of links into the show
25:27
notes on if you want to actually
25:27
get into popcorn. And you
25:31
haven't done it before. We've
25:31
got now quite a bit of
25:35
resources. So you could go in
25:35
there and watch my interview
25:39
with Agnes, you could watch this
25:39
interview with Courtney next
25:42
week. And we have a blog post on
25:42
how to set everything up in
25:46
popcorn, so that you could get
25:46
you know, land a deal. There are
25:50
lots of best practices on how to
25:50
make it successful, so that you
25:54
can actually strike some
25:54
relationships with these
25:56
businesses, especially before
25:56
the marketplace maybe gets a
25:59
little crowded. It would be nice
25:59
to start building up a bit of a
26:02
reputation there before you know
26:02
a bunch of new brands start
26:05
showing up.
26:05  Travis
And we actually have a
26:05
really cool Podcasting Q&A
26:07
episode dropping on Monday,
26:07
talking about how to price your
26:10
sponsorships.
26:11  Alban
Alright, we we've
26:11
officially become like a popcorn
26:14
promotions to have that as well.
26:18  Travis
Oh, yes, we got
26:18
Podcasting Q&A coming out on
26:20
Monday, talking about how to
26:20
price your sponsorships. And
26:24
there's actually a clip in there
26:24
from Agnes from your Agnes
26:26
interview, where she basically
26:26
gives like three different
26:29
levels of pricing. And like how
26:29
to pick the one that's right for
26:32
you and giving you ballpark
26:32
numbers for what to pitch?
26:35  Kevin
Does any of that stuff
26:35
talk about like? How many? How
26:37
many downloads? Should you be
26:37
getting roughly per episode
26:40
before you even start? It's not
26:40
a huge hassle to submit
26:42
proposals. But at the same time,
26:42
if you're not doing a certain
26:46
number of downloads, is it even
26:46
worth the time to submit
26:48
proposals? Does anybody talk
26:48
about that
26:51  Alban
the number I keep hearing
26:51
from different people is 500,
26:54
that a lot of the brands are
26:54
reluctant to actually start
26:57
engaging unless you're getting
26:57
about 500 plays per episode. But
27:02
I think Courtney's experience
27:02
with forensic tales was actually
27:07
that she was able to get people
27:07
at a lower number. Now, Travis
27:13
will have to correct that when
27:13
you have to overdose. She
27:17
doesn't say that. And I miss
27:17
remembering, you know, you have
27:20
to overdose?
27:21  Travis
Well, one thing that she
27:21
did say was if you have a
27:23
smaller podcast, you can pitch
27:23
bundles. So instead of doing
27:27
like a per episode deal, you
27:27
say, you know, for this flat
27:31
rate, I'll give you a like, do a
27:31
full interview with you. We'll
27:34
do like an integrated brand
27:34
creative on an episode. And
27:38
you'll get five host read ads
27:38
for this price. And so you can
27:41
kind of like increase the value
27:41
of what you're offering by doing
27:45
more for the brand, versus just
27:45
relying strictly on your CPM
27:50
numbers.
27:50  Kevin
So you can always add
27:50
like, I'll do social stuff. I'll
27:55
do stuff like outside of your
27:55
podcast, right? Yep. All right.
27:58
Good stuff. Looking forward to
27:58
hearing that episode.
28:02  Travis
just poking around the
28:02
internet earlier today. And I
28:06
stumbled onto this really
28:06
interesting 3d graph generator
28:11
that shows all the podcasts that
28:11
are connected the subscribers to
28:16
yours. Have you guys ever heard
28:16
of this before? We started
28:19
talking about it before the show
28:19
re phonic?
28:20  Kevin
No, yeah, you're talking
28:20
about refinancing? Yeah,
28:22
totally.
28:23  Travis
Yeah, knew all about
28:23
this.
28:24  Alban
Kevin. I had no idea what
28:24
this was until about 30 seconds
28:27
before we hit record. So Travis,
28:27
why don't you tell us and tell
28:31
our listeners what this does.
28:33  Travis
Okay, so re phonic. They
28:33
are a service, primarily
28:37
targeted at brands and companies
28:37
that want to find and in their
28:40
words qualify relevant podcast
28:40
for sponsorships. And like,
28:45
basically say, Well, here's the
28:45
email that's in the RSS feed if
28:48
you want to get in touch with a
28:48
host or all that kind of stuff.
28:50
So they have like a whole
28:50
business model. But they have
28:53
this free tool that we created,
28:53
which is essentially like a
28:56
graph. It's a free graph
28:56
generator that shows you what
28:59
else your listeners are
28:59
subscribed to. And so the link
29:03
in the show notes shows you the
29:03
graph for Buzzcast. So you can
29:07
see all the shows that are
29:07
connected to Buzzcast. So you
29:12
can see that like how to start a
29:12
podcast and Podcasting Q&A are
29:15
in there. But then you'll also
29:15
see like these branches, and
29:19
what these represent are
29:19
overlapping listeners. So it
29:22
makes sense that people that
29:22
listen to Buzzcast also listen
29:25
to how to start a podcast. You
29:25
can see that you know, another
29:29
one of the podcasts where we
29:29
have a significant overlap is
29:32
crystals podcast, the prophet
29:32
podcast. And then beyond that,
29:37
you can even see the shows that
29:37
are connected to crystals
29:40
podcasts that are also connected
29:40
to Buzzsprout, but not as
29:44
strongly. And so it's just I
29:44
mean, it's just fun to kind of
29:47
like poke around and see what
29:47
your listeners are also
29:51
listening to as far as other
29:51
podcasts. But it could also be
29:55
really helpful if you're trying
29:55
to find opportunities to
29:58
collaborate with other shows.
29:58
You want to know that like,
30:01
there's a really good chance
30:01
that the listeners will come and
30:03
check out your show as well. If
30:03
you can see that there's a
30:06
strong crossover between your
30:06
audiences, you'll know that's a
30:08
good fit. But then also, if
30:08
you're looking to get ideas for
30:13
different episodes do in the
30:13
future, you can see what other
30:16
shows your listeners are
30:16
listening to. And that could
30:19
give you some ideas about
30:19
content you can create in the
30:21
future to serve them better. So
30:21
not sure if it's like, oh my
30:25
gosh, Earth changing, best thing
30:25
ever kind of tool. But it's
30:28
certainly fun to play around in
30:28
3d space. And, and see, you
30:33
know, what else your listeners
30:33
are listening to?
30:35  Alban
Maybe the cross promo
30:35
piece is interesting. But, you
30:38
know, I typed in Buzzcast first,
30:38
but then I'm typing into my
30:41
favorite shows to be like, hey,
30:41
if I like this stuff, what else
30:45
would I like? And now I'm
30:45
starting to pull up podcast that
30:49
might be interesting. So maybe,
30:49
do you remember there used to be
30:53
a tool for this with music, I
30:53
think it might have been called
30:57
genius. It's not the music
30:57
related app called genius. Now
31:00
that does lyrics. But this, it
31:00
was some maybe it's something
31:04
totally different. But whatever
31:04
it was, it was like this, it was
31:06
like a 3d map of connections
31:06
between different bands. And I
31:11
remember going and playing
31:11
around and that for quite a
31:13
while finding new bands to
31:13
listen to, you know, this is
31:16
when you're like 1718. And
31:16
you're really into like finding
31:19
new bands to impress people
31:20  Travis
back when you went to
31:20
MySpace to like, find, find
31:22
them.
31:22  Alban
You know, I was listening
31:22
to people's MySpace songs,
31:25
trying to find new cool things
31:25
to listen to. But it reminds me
31:29
that and I think this is
31:29
probably a great way to find new
31:33
podcasts, especially for podcast
31:33
listeners who are like I have a
31:36
couple shows I really enjoy. Yet
31:36
I'm struggling to find a third
31:40
or fourth show and would
31:40
probably like it, well, this
31:43
might be a great way, you know,
31:43
to just find new shows for
31:46
yourself. And like you're right,
31:46
collaborate with the podcast,
31:49
who you're connected with,
31:49
because maybe 20% of your
31:53
audience listens to the shows.
31:53
But that probably means that the
31:56
rest of your audience would be
31:56
really interested. I'm looking
32:01
through here and yet a lot of
32:01
the podcasts for at least
32:03
Buzzcast people are listening to
32:03
this show, or listening to a lot
32:07
of other podcasts that you know,
32:07
kind of fit the same
32:10
demographic. So maybe we do some
32:10
cross promos with like pod news,
32:15
or some of our other Buzzsprout
32:15
podcasts.
32:17  Kevin
Travis I see that you can
32:17
like claim your podcast on re
32:20
phonic. And then you get access
32:20
to chart rankings ratings, make
32:25
sure that all your data is has
32:25
the correct metrics and keep
32:28
everything up to date. You can
32:28
see your ratings and reviews
32:31
social metrics, have you done
32:31
any of this? Have you ever
32:33
claimed a show there?
32:34  Travis
I have never claimed to
32:34
show here. Yeah, I've never
32:37
claimed to show there.
32:39  Kevin
Yeah, it looks pretty
32:39
interesting. It looks a little
32:41
bit similar to like what you get
32:41
with chargeable or what was the
32:43
other one like pod kite or
32:43
something like that. Yeah. But a
32:47
little different, like kind of
32:47
maybe more towards they're
32:50
trying to put data together to
32:50
attract advertisers for you,
32:53
then chargeable, which seems
32:53
like they're kind of giving you
32:55
tools to do attribution, and,
32:55
like lure you in with like an
32:59
all in one place to be able to
32:59
kind of see where you're doing
33:01
ranking wise. Anyway, something
33:01
that might be interesting for
33:05
podcasts check out I'm sure one
33:05
of us will check it out before
33:08
the next episode and can report
33:08
back,
33:09  Alban
we should leave a link in
33:09
the show notes. I'd love to hear
33:11
if other people when you look at
33:11
your own podcast, are there
33:15
other shows that you're
33:15
connected to the wouldn't have
33:17
expected, there's some that
33:17
we're connected to that are
33:20
similar, but I didn't know
33:20
there'll be a huge overlap,
33:23
which was interesting. And maybe
33:23
you'll find some podcasts that
33:26
might be good for cross
33:26
promotion. And we're just
33:30
getting to know other podcasters
33:30
doing something interesting.
33:33
podcasting can feel a little bit
33:33
lonely. Sometimes we're just
33:37
talking to a mic and hoping that
33:37
people are listening. You know,
33:40
it's kind of nice that to be
33:40
able to talk to another
33:42
podcaster and say, Hey, this is
33:42
a, you know, here's what I'm
33:45
working on. I see we have a lot
33:45
of the same audience. We're
33:47
working on similar shows, it'd
33:47
be great to hang out on zoom for
33:50
30 minutes and just talk through
33:50
what it's like doing what we're
33:54
doing. Yes, I mean, I'm on a
33:54
show with two other people and
33:59
they don't even respond to me on
33:59
here. So who knows, maybe you'll
34:03
get the silent treatment that I
34:03
get.
34:07  Travis
On that note on such a
34:07
lovely high high note,
34:10
definitely make sure to check
34:10
out that interview that Alban
34:12
did with Agnes, which was here
34:12
in Buzzcast. We put it in the
34:16
feed in Buzzcast. And you can
34:16
watch on our YouTube channel. If
34:19
you're not yet subscribed to our
34:19
YouTube channel, make sure you
34:21
do that help us hit 60,000
34:21
subscribers as quickly as
34:25
possible, so that way we can
34:25
blaze past that and get that
34:28
silver play button. throw a
34:28
party or pizza we'll throw a
34:31
pizza party in your honor when
34:31
you when you help us get there.
34:34
I'm just gonna
34:35  Alban
you're gonna cut the
34:35
pizza party.
34:39  Kevin
We need 100,000 now I
34:39
gotta leave it in 1000 we get
34:41
silver
34:41  Travis
Yeah, 100,000 you get
34:41
silver
34:43  Alban
now even bigger than
34:43
hitting these numbers in
34:46
YouTube. Buzzsprout has some big
34:46
milestones, or Buzzcast has some
34:50
pretty big milestones. Coming up
34:50
in two weeks we'll be our 50th
34:54
Buzzcast episode. Yes, it'll
34:54
almost be two full years of
34:59
doing bas Cast every other week.
34:59
I don't know we ever missed a
35:02
week,
35:02  Travis
we missed a week when
35:02
there was like a hurricane that
35:05
came through. But then, instead
35:05
of publishing every two weeks,
35:08
we just published that third
35:08
week. Yeah. And I was the only
35:11
time
35:12  Kevin
I think I think I might
35:12
have missed one or two, or we've
35:15
had some guest host fill in for
35:15
me. And surprisingly enough,
35:18
those episodes got more
35:18
downloads than others.
35:23  Alban
It is true. Every time
35:23
that somebody else has been one
35:26
of us has stepped out. Somebody
35:26
else has been on the podcast,
35:28
the numbers skyrocket. So right,
35:28
maybe we need to swap us out.
35:33
We're actually been dragging the
35:33
show down for the last two
35:36
years.
35:37  Kevin
I will say before we wrap
35:37
this up. We've been recording
35:39
today in Riverside that FM and
35:39
it's been a nice experience. We
35:43
go back and forth between Skype
35:43
squad cast, and I've got no
35:45
complaints about squad cast
35:45
either. But for whatever reason,
35:48
Travis has obtained Riverside,
35:48
and they've got a whole new UI.
35:51
It looks beautiful. And it's
35:51
worked seamlessly. So thank you
35:54
to Riverside.
35:55  Alban
Yeah. And new iPhone app
35:55
came out today. So you know, be
36:00
interesting to try to record
36:00
some of these interviews, record
36:03
the video and actually put them
36:03
up on YouTube. If Travis you
36:06
know his game for editing video
36:06
content on this as well. And
36:11
seeing how those iPhone setups
36:11
work. I think that's a tough
36:16
thing to figure out. And it's
36:16
exciting to hear that they think
36:20
they've got it. And if reverse I
36:20
can make a really good audio
36:25
recorder, or a phone recorder,
36:25
we can get video and audio. man
36:29
that's going to be really,
36:29
really nice for podcasters who
36:32
are setting up interviews,
36:34  Travis
for sure. And to
36:34
officially close out the longest
36:37
close we've ever done on
36:37
Buzzcast. Thanks for listening,
36:40
and we'll catch you in the next
36:40
one. Keep podcasting