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Lessons From 17 Years of Podcasting with Evo Terra [transcript]


Evo Terra discusses the changes he's seen in the podcasting industry over the last 17 years, advice for independent podcasters, whether or not your mic makes a difference, and why you should totally go to a podcast conference.

Listen to Evo's show, "Podcast Pontifications"

Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-07-09  1h8m
 
 
00:00  Evo
You you have the ability to
00:00
be interesting for four and a
00:02
half hours. No, I don't know
00:02
that you do. I mean, most people
00:05
don't, right? Like I'm a hockey
00:05
fan. And I love nothing more
00:09
than to sit in a stadium and
00:09
watch an NHL game. For the three
00:12
hours it takes from Puck drop
00:12
until the final whistle blows. I
00:15
don't want to watch a three hour
00:15
Little League game or a mites
00:18
game or anything else, right?
00:18
Because they're, it's not
00:21
entertaining. So yes, by all
00:21
means, dig deep into a topic,
00:25
but make sure that you can be
00:25
interesting for the entire
00:28
length of that topic. Hey,
00:28
everybody, I
00:36  Alban
recently had the
00:36
opportunity to sit down with Evo
00:38
Terra Evo, if you haven't heard
00:38
of them before, is one of the
00:42
first I believe 50 podcasters.
00:42
In the world. He's been
00:45
podcasting since 2004. And it
00:45
was it was really interesting
00:50
conversation, we were able to
00:50
talk about how podcasting has
00:52
changed. In the last 17 years,
00:52
what has changed what stayed the
00:57
same? It gave me a ton of
00:57
actionable advice for
01:00
independent creators, and what
01:00
should we should be doing when
01:04
we're creating our shows? We
01:04
talked about the importance of
01:07
things like transcripts and
01:07
accessibility in podcasting. We
01:12
talked about things like why
01:12
your mic doesn't matter, and why
01:15
you shouldn't be podcasting if
01:15
your whole goal is to get rich
01:18
and famous, super interesting
01:18
interview. I hope you enjoy it.
01:22
So here we go. Here's my
01:22
interview with Evo Tara.
01:26
Alright, well, Eva, thank you so
01:26
much for coming on the podcast.
01:30
What was it like to interview
01:30
Arthur C. Clarke and Ray
01:33
Bradbury, oh,
01:35  Evo
I a dream come true. A
01:35
dream that I didn't know that I
01:38
had. At the same time. You know,
01:38
I'm typically not intimidated by
01:45
very many people. And that's
01:45
probably just more egotistic
01:48
than anything else, really. But
01:48
when you truly are having
01:53
conversations with people who
01:53
are legends in the field and
01:57
true masters, it's just it's
01:57
just mind blowing. Now, also,
02:02
let's not forget that both of
02:02
these men when I interviewed
02:04
them, were very, very old. And
02:04
very, very, on a different plane
02:10
than the rest of us. Just some,
02:10
yeah, just just really, really,
02:16
you know, again, old men crazy
02:16
ideas who have kind of got a
02:20
little bit more crazy in their
02:20
old age. So it's fun. You want
02:23
to let the conversation run and
02:23
just kind of see where it goes.
02:27
Because you realize that you're
02:27
not in control. These conference
02:32
you will the things you thought
02:32
you're going to ask these two
02:35
legends of science fiction. No,
02:35
they want to take the
02:38
conversation in a different way.
02:38
And that's what you do. Just go
02:42
along with them. But it was it
02:42
was really really fantastic.
02:47  Alban
rendezvous with Rama was
02:47
one of the books I grew up with
02:50
and sci fi that really loved.
02:50
Obviously, most people have read
02:54
Fahrenheit 451 the marsh air
02:54
articles or 2001. So definitely
02:59
powerhouses of sci fi. How did
02:59
you get connected to Arthur C.
03:03
Clarke? Can you tell us that
03:03
story?
03:04  Evo
So the very first podcast I
03:04
ever did was a science fiction
03:07
podcast. My partner and I were
03:07
interviewing science fiction
03:10
authors, pre podcasting. We were
03:10
doing this for an internet radio
03:13
show. And that's how we got into
03:13
podcasting. When podcasting came
03:17
along. We already had like 80
03:17
episodes in the can. So we kind
03:20
of cheated. And we're one of the
03:20
first podcasts that has a giant
03:24
back catalogue, which was, which
03:24
was lovely. The way we got
03:27
connected with these is I have
03:27
to Oh, all that to my partner
03:31
who have the skills he had one
03:31
of them was tenacity. And the
03:36
other one was not realizing and
03:36
not having a good understanding
03:40
of what he really set in the
03:40
universe. So we kind of felt
03:43
kind of felt pretty good about
03:43
the show and really had no
03:45
qualms picking up the phone.
03:45
And, you know, calling Arthur C
03:49
Clarke's publicist and saying,
03:49
Can I have his phone number in
03:53
Sri Lanka, which is where he was
03:53
living at the time and and the
03:56
same for Ray Bradbury, just
03:56
dogged determination. And I'm
04:00
fortunate, I didn't have to do
04:00
that, because I hate cold
04:02
calling for any reason
04:02
whatsoever. But Mike didn't care
04:06
and would happily just chase
04:06
down leads, and continue to dog
04:10
people until they till they
04:10
said, Yes. Now also, granted,
04:13
we've been doing it for several
04:13
years. And this is back in the
04:16
day when we were getting, I
04:16
don't know, a dozen books in the
04:19
mail every week from publishing
04:19
houses all over. I mean, our
04:23
catalog or our library was huge
04:23
of all these books. So they
04:26
really wanted us to interview
04:26
people. And the reality was both
04:30
Well, I think Arthur C. Clarke
04:30
had a new series coming out he
04:33
was writing in conjunction with
04:33
someone else. And for Bradbury,
04:37
it was just simply Alright, he's
04:37
he's still talking about his own
04:40
stuff. So
04:41  Alban
let's get him on as well.
04:41
That's incredible. You've been
04:44
podcasting since October
04:44
14 2004. Which is weird to me,
04:50
because that's a few years
04:50
before Apple invented
04:52
podcasting. How did that happen?
04:54  Evo
Yeah, you're exactly right.
04:54
It's a little before the summer
04:57
of 2005 when they dropped it
04:57
into a iTunes and yeah, you
05:01
know, as I mentioned, we had
05:01
been doing the show and we
05:05
already had an RSS feed because
05:05
we were blogging. We had an
05:08
article written for every one of
05:08
our episodes. And we were even
05:11
embedding a real audio player in
05:11
the, in the code. Yeah, cuz we
05:16
were really, really fancy in
05:16
2002. And so when, when my
05:20
partner said, a couple of days
05:20
before that, hey, there's this
05:23
thing called podcasting, I took
05:23
a look at it and said, I think
05:26
the only thing I have to do is
05:26
figure out what this enclosure
05:30
tag means. And while I'm not a
05:30
developer, I'm a pretty decent
05:33
hack at a lot of things. So I
05:33
hacked apart the, the blogging
05:38
platform we were using, which
05:38
was pre WordPress, it was called
05:40
movable type was the name of
05:40
movable type. Yeah, the CMS we
05:45
were using, but it seemed pretty
05:45
simple. Well, if I just drop,
05:47
you know, dollar sign, and then
05:47
enclosure equals, and I just, I
05:52
figured out how to get the URL
05:52
of the of the mp3 file that we
05:55
had stored up on Bluehost, or
05:55
somewhere, before there were
05:59
podcast hosting companies that
05:59
we knew about. And there's a
06:02
link in there, there's, I'm
06:02
guessing this number of bytes
06:05
that it is. So I haven't copied
06:05
and pasted that in there. And so
06:08
I had to hand coded every single
06:08
time I had to go in and edit,
06:11
edit the raw RSS feed each time
06:11
we publish, but boom, we had a
06:16
we had a podcast.
06:18  Alban
So how has it changed? I
06:18
mean, you've now been podcasting
06:21
for 17 years. What have you seen
06:21
change in the industry and
06:25
what's changed for you?
06:27  Evo
I think almost everything
06:27
has changed from pretty much
06:31
from a technical perspective,
06:31
you know, but at the same time,
06:33
so much of it has remained the
06:33
same. You know, it's still
06:37
largely made up of people who
06:37
have something to say, and have
06:41
a platform they can say it on.
06:41
We people are under the
06:46
impression that podcasting
06:46
wasn't very diverse as far as
06:49
the types of content you could
06:49
listen to back then. But that's
06:51
not true. We had radio shows who
06:51
were just repurposing their
06:54
content. In fact, that's what we
06:54
were doing. Originally. Plus
06:58
there were NPR types of already
06:58
podcasting as well. But a huge
07:01
swath of people whose only
07:01
distribution point was this, and
07:04
they weren't just doing
07:04
interviews, there were really
07:07
cool variety shows, there were
07:07
audio dramas back in 2004. There
07:11
was everything you can think of
07:11
that was up that is podcasting.
07:14
Today, we were doing it way back
07:14
then someone was doing it way
07:17
back then there just wasn't 4
07:17
million of us doing it way back
07:21
then there were like four of us
07:21
doing it way back then. So all
07:24
the things that have changed, as
07:24
you know, technology has gotten
07:26
easier. The the barrier to entry
07:26
from a technology stage, whether
07:31
you're buying equipment, or
07:31
whether using software has come
07:34
down significantly. People are
07:34
spoiled for choice when it comes
07:38
to where to host podcast
07:38
episodes. There's a lot less
07:41
guesswork in that. And from the
07:41
listener perspective, that's
07:45
really where most of the big
07:45
changes have happened because it
07:48
as much as we complain about the
07:48
hurdle of getting people to
07:52
listen to a podcast in 2021. I
07:52
implore you to just think what
07:57
it was like when there were no
07:57
pod catchers on mobile phones.
08:01
When podcasting started, it all
08:01
happened on a computer. And then
08:05
someone had to transfer their
08:05
files from their computer to a
08:08
mobile device to listen and it
08:08
still attracted listeners.
08:12  Alban
Weird. There is an old
08:12
interview that you have where
08:15
you were talking about, like
08:15
moving audio files to it wasn't
08:19
Zune, it was what I was like a
08:19
Rio or
08:22  Evo
Sai river with I river was
08:22
probably what I talked about
08:25
using Yeah, Mm hmm.
08:26  Alban
And I remember those
08:26
days, like downloading episodes
08:30
into iTunes, trying to hook up
08:30
to an iPod. It's not working,
08:34
right? Oh, I forgot to do it
08:34
before my, you know, my long car
08:37
ride. And there was no way to
08:37
get another podcast episode
08:42
unless you'd pre loaded
08:42
everything. well in advance.
08:45  Evo
Yeah. And pre loaded means
08:45
you can probably fit around
08:48
three hours worth of content,
08:48
because they never was on these
08:51
things were really, really
08:51
small. So yeah, all sorts of
08:53
barriers that don't want to
08:53
exist today, which is wild.
08:57  Alban
What one of the barriers
08:57
that is still there is on the
09:01
creator side. We all would like
09:01
to be the big podcaster we still
09:06
have to do the work. Yeah. What
09:06
advice would you give to new
09:10
podcasters? people thinking
09:10
about starting a podcast and
09:13
just trying to find their
09:13
journey?
09:15  Evo
Well, I think it depends on
09:15
what path you're on. If you so
09:19
there really isn't the only
09:19
thing stopping people from
09:22
podcasting today. And I
09:22
recognize that I'm, I'm saying
09:24
this from a position of
09:24
privilege. So I want to make
09:25
sure that I check myself, but
09:25
most people who have the means
09:29
can start a podcast, you know,
09:29
it is relatively inexpensive.
09:32
You can do it for almost free as
09:32
far as a cost per perspective
09:36
goes, if that's what you want.
09:36
So the reality is that anybody
09:40
who wants to pursue their
09:40
passion and podcasting, probably
09:42
can, those costs continue to
09:42
approach free more and more all
09:45
the time, but the one thing
09:45
that's not free is your time.
09:49
And so people have to decide
09:49
whether they're trading time or
09:51
money to do things. Now, I
09:51
really encourage individuals who
09:56
just want to try and play with
09:56
the podcasting space to see what
09:59
they You can make out of it. To
09:59
do that the same way that we did
10:03
back in the day you have to
10:03
define, you know what this looks
10:06
like for you. So go and explore
10:06
and do them. But for businesses
10:11
or people who are professional
10:11
who have a goal, at the end, who
10:14
I really want to do something,
10:14
rather than just see where this
10:16
takes me, there's something I
10:16
want to do recognize that your
10:21
path is different, because the
10:21
paths have been well blazed, if
10:26
you will, over the last 17
10:26
years. And while there is always
10:29
room for new paths, because this
10:29
is digital, we can have an
10:32
unlimited number of shows or an
10:32
unlimited number of ways to do
10:34
things, there have been a lot of
10:34
lessons learned along the way.
10:38
And people listeners have come
10:38
to expect certain levels of
10:42
quality, from the certain types
10:42
of shows they listen to, they're
10:45
willing to forgive a lot for
10:45
someone who's exploring and
10:48
having fun as a hobby. But for
10:48
businesses who are really trying
10:52
to do something with their show
10:52
and have a business outcome, you
10:55
need to really up your game. So
10:55
you might need to elicit the
10:59
services of someone who's a pro
10:59
at this. And it's not a pitch
11:03
for working with me. But working
11:03
with anybody out there,
11:06  Alban
I'd say there's a, if
11:06
you're looking for a pro to help
11:09
you look right behind Evo over
11:09
his left shoulder, simpler
11:13
media, that's true, we certainly
11:13
can do that. But it really
11:15
doesn't matter to me what you
11:15
do, but there's just so much
11:17
that you don't have to struggle
11:17
and learn on your own. Because
11:21
it's been it's been done. And I
11:21
would say everything's been
11:24
done, everything can take a new
11:24
twist on it. But you may need to
11:28
bring someone on who knows
11:28
exactly what they're doing and
11:31
help you execute against your
11:31
goals. There's definitely, you
11:34
know, a sense that if you are a
11:34
brand or your business and you
11:37
are starting a podcast, the
11:37
quality of that show is going to
11:41
reflect on the brand that you
11:41
are representing. And so while
11:45
it may be a totally new
11:45
initiative for you, but if it's
11:48
a big brand, you want to make
11:48
sure that it comes out looking
11:52
professional sounding great.
11:52
That things that podcast
11:56
listeners have grown accustomed
11:56
to, that we know, oh, this is
12:00
decent quality. There's actually
12:00
links in the show notes, they
12:03
have good cover art, and those
12:03
things actually being taken care
12:07
of help reflect positively on
12:07
the brand.
12:09  Evo
Yeah, yeah, they do. And
12:09
also, I think we're getting a
12:12
lot less forgiving from an
12:12
accessibility point of view. You
12:15
know, there, there are a great
12:15
level, there's expectations that
12:18
have been set, and we need to
12:18
meet because now we can meet
12:21
them. And so I think you're not
12:21
just dumping audio out there,
12:25
whether you're a hobbyist or
12:25
whether you're a business doing
12:27
it, it's not just audio, it's
12:27
it's the episode details that
12:30
you mentioned, it's it's having
12:30
a transcript and a corrected
12:33
transcript on the site, all of
12:33
the things that are very
12:36
important so that everybody can
12:36
enjoy your content. Yes, I get I
12:39
enjoy it. I understand it's a
12:39
hobby, but you there is a
12:42
certain level of things you need
12:42
to do. And hats off to the
12:45
hosting companies like I don't
12:45
know, Buzzsprout that help you,
12:48
you know, make sure that you're
12:48
doing things in the right way. I
12:51
mean, honestly, I wish that
12:51
podcast hosting companies, all
12:54
of them, by the way, would push
12:54
more for some of those standards
12:58
I get there's a there's a
12:58
relationship, they have to worry
13:00
about what the customers, but I
13:00
would like to see people like
13:02
make much less mistakes, or at
13:02
least when they are making
13:06
mistakes, by missing thing,
13:06
understand and be told what
13:09
you're doing is not at the level
13:09
of acceptability. Okay, you can
13:13
hit, you can hit go if you want
13:13
to. But really, you should
13:15
consider doing these things
13:15
better. And that's just going to
13:18
happen more and more as we
13:18
continue as the podcast base
13:21
gets more evolved and more
13:21
streamlined, you know, it'll be
13:25
less chance of people making
13:25
mistakes, because I don't know
13:28
that things have to be done.
13:30  Alban
I remember probably the
13:30
first time I met you in person.
13:34
We had a long conversation about
13:34
podcast accessibility
13:37
specifically transcripts. For
13:37
anybody that is hard of hearing
13:41
or deaf. Yeah, there is a large,
13:41
much larger segment of the world
13:46
that is actually hard of hearing
13:46
than we really appreciate. And
13:51
it's a lot of people that
13:51
podcasts can become totally
13:54
inaccessible. If the audio
13:54
quality isn't near perfect, and
13:59
there's not a transcript, if you
13:59
have great transcripts, it
14:03
really forgives even a lot of
14:03
that audio quality issues as
14:07
well because people can read
14:07
along with it. And it gets a lot
14:11
easier to find stuff later on.
14:14  Evo
Yeah, you're exactly right.
14:14
transcripts serve a lot of
14:16
purposes. I think a lot of
14:16
podcasters have the mistaken
14:20
assumption that transcripts are
14:20
only for people who are
14:24
completely deaf. And that's not
14:24
true. They're just like most
14:27
things, deafness is on a
14:27
spectrum. You know, hearing loss
14:29
when I have mild hearing loss.
14:29
Mine is luckily correctable, so
14:34
I don't it doesn't cause me too
14:34
much of an issue. But that's
14:37
what not only transcripts are
14:37
for but of all the other things
14:40
that you do to your audio to
14:40
make sure it's accessible. Like
14:43
ensuring that it's the voices
14:43
are Audible, which is weird. I
14:48
have to say this but I say it
14:48
all the time, like make sure
14:50
that the dialogue is able to be
14:50
heard. You know, I know that you
14:55
spent a lot of time on those
14:55
background effects in that car
14:58
crash down but if someone's
14:58
speaking during it I probably
15:00
need to know what they say. And
15:00
if it's if it's missed, you know
15:05
that it's missed. And that's a
15:05
problem. That transcript can
15:07
help with that, obviously, but
15:07
also, so again, normalizing your
15:10
tracks. So again, understanding
15:10
that not everyone listens to
15:13
your really well crafted sound
15:13
designed audio drama, in a quiet
15:18
room with headphones, many
15:18
people listen in their car with
15:20
road noise, or they listen on a
15:20
commute, when we can commute
15:23
once again. So just making sure
15:23
that the content that you put
15:27
out there, everyone can enjoy, I
15:27
think is so important.
15:30  Alban
There's also just a great
15:30
ability for people to go back
15:34
and find old content, it's so
15:34
much easier when there are
15:37
transcripts. So I in preparation
15:37
for this interview, I read a
15:42
handful of your interviews from
15:42
I mean, some is early, I think
15:46
like 2006, they're all still
15:46
saved online, only his
15:49
transcripts, I found a few
15:49
episodes of podcast
15:52
pontifications, one of which I
15:52
was on and was able to review
15:56
our transcript, it would have
15:56
been much more difficult to one
16:00
some of those episodes, I could
16:00
not find audio files. And so one
16:05
they would have been totally
16:05
lost. But then to you know, it's
16:09
there's a very different
16:09
experience for me listening to
16:12
podcast at 3x. So that I can get
16:12
a lot quickly versus reading,
16:17
which is probably faster than 3x
16:17
speed anyway, I retain so much
16:22
more in the when reading.
16:24  Evo
Well, we can't scan audio
16:24
content yet, you know, our
16:28
brains aren't designed to do
16:28
that it has to be consumed in a
16:31
linear fashion. I mean, as great
16:31
as podcasting is, it's not like
16:34
watching a video where that's
16:34
literally the only thing you can
16:37
do, at least with listening to a
16:37
podcast, you can walk around the
16:39
house, you know, clean the
16:39
kitchen, though, those various
16:42
things, unlike video. But still,
16:42
when you really are searching
16:45
for information and you want to
16:45
dive deep into it, having a
16:48
transcript, or in some cases,
16:48
having a rewritten article, as
16:52
someone's taking their raw
16:52
audio, the words they put out
16:55
and then reformat them, having
16:55
the ability to go back through
16:58
that is super important for a
16:58
lot of reasons. You know, some
17:02
people don't have the time to
17:02
listen to your show. So that
17:05
transcript or article that you
17:05
can create will help that person
17:09
stay connected to you. They
17:09
don't feel like Oh man, I missed
17:13
what they talked about
17:13
yesterday, I can just go back to
17:15
yesterday's episode and do a
17:15
quick scan and get what I need
17:20
or make the decision to to
17:20
listen and get all of that that
17:23
I needed. But you know, it's
17:23
it's a matter of choice. And
17:26
that's an important thing. And
17:26
today.
17:28  Alban
So part of why I mean,
17:28
why I know you and why you have
17:33
so much to say about the podcast
17:33
industry is because you have
17:35
been here since the very
17:35
beginning. And part of that was
17:40
that you were invited to write
17:40
multiple books on podcasting.
17:43
Could you talk to us about some
17:43
of the books that you've written
17:46
that experience? And maybe what
17:46
you wrote in those books?
17:50  Evo
Yeah, sure. Well, I'll do
17:50
what I can because it's been a
17:53
while. But early on in the
17:53
process back in 2005, I got a
17:57
phone call from a guest who had
17:57
been on that science fiction
18:00
radio show I mentioned
18:00
previously, it's no longer
18:03
available, by the way called the
18:03
dragon page. It's been dead for
18:05
a number of years. But one of
18:05
the authors I had become friends
18:09
with called me up. I've been he
18:09
says in his voice. I have been
18:13
asked to write a book about
18:13
podcasting. And my reply to him
18:17
is why did they ask you to write
18:17
a book about podcasting? You? I
18:21
mean, he was podcasting at the
18:21
time, but I was doing all the
18:23
work. And so we said, well,
18:23
that's why I'm calling you I
18:26
need to co author. I said, Okay,
18:26
how long is the book supposed to
18:30
be? Now all this happened when
18:30
I'm driving 90 minute commute
18:33
home at the time. So I'm
18:33
probably have to do that
18:35
commute. So I asked him the
18:35
question, how long is the book
18:39
because I'm thinking pamphlets,
18:39
maybe a blog post about how to
18:43
podcast gigs. Remember, this is
18:43
2005 there wasn't, you know,
18:46
FTP, a file up somewhere, make
18:46
an RSS feed, and boom, it's
18:48
done. solely solely interested
18:48
in the project. So I said, I
18:52
find out how long this book
18:52
needs to be. And he writes, he
18:56
calls back five minutes later he
18:56
says 266 pages. Which two things
19:02
that's long and also oddly
19:02
specific. I mean, not a rough
19:07
number. That's what I said. So I
19:07
don't know about this tea. Can
19:10
you call me who who are writing
19:10
this book for is all find out?
19:13
Like these are questions you
19:13
should have done. So hang up,
19:17
calls back a minute later, and
19:17
he says, It's Wiley's. It's a
19:20
for dummies book and my
19:20
responses tell him we'll do it.
19:23
I mean, we even discuss price.
19:23
We hadn't discussed anything,
19:26
just like okay done, because I
19:26
knew that the for dummies titles
19:31
will attract people. There are
19:31
people who read for dummies
19:34
books. There are people who say
19:34
I'm not a dummy. I don't want
19:36
this kind of stuff. But there
19:36
are way more people who say as a
19:39
matter of fact, I am a dummy.
19:39
And I will take that $20 book
19:42
off the shelf, they sell
19:42
themselves zerona I worked in
19:45
marketing at the time, so knew I
19:45
didn't have to do any marketing
19:48
of that title. But I also had no
19:48
idea what I was doing. I'd never
19:53
written a book before. I've done
19:53
a lot of writing before, but
19:55
never in a in a book form. So I
19:55
was a total newbie to this, but
19:59
the Fortunately, I had my co
19:59
author who done a lot of this
20:03
stuff in the past. So I
20:03
basically let him deal with all
20:05
of the hassles of getting it
20:05
done. So it finally came time to
20:10
write the book and Wiley has an
20:10
extremely specific way you are
20:15
supposed to write, like you are
20:15
trained to write a for dummies
20:19
book. It's not just you know,
20:19
Evo, Tara writes a book and they
20:22
put us they slapped it for
20:22
dummies, I don't know, I had to
20:24
write it in that particular
20:24
style. So one of the things you
20:26
have to do is write a sample
20:26
chapter, not a sample chapter,
20:29
you write the first you write a
20:29
chapter from the book, and it
20:31
can't be the first chapter. It's
20:31
got to be somewhere inside. So I
20:35
decide I'm gonna write a book
20:35
on, I think FTP, and I forget
20:38
what he was writing his chapter
20:38
on, but all I know is one of the
20:40
things I'm really good at is
20:40
procrastinating. And so I
20:42
waited, and I waited, and I
20:42
waited. And finally, he got his
20:46
done about two weeks before that
20:46
were due, which is odd for him
20:49
because he procrastinates more
20:49
than me, he writes his chapter,
20:52
sends it in and I'm copied on
20:52
the email. A day later, they
20:55
returned to email and said, We
20:55
have some edits, I open up the
20:58
Word document, and it's a sea of
20:58
red. It has just more
21:03
corrections and Crosstown and
21:03
rewrite request mean, this is
21:06
this is an chapter book and like
21:06
every page, there's most of the
21:10
things are wrong. Something Oh
21:10
my God, this guy knows how to
21:14
write a book. I know what's
21:14
gonna happen to me. So I went to
21:17
the bookstore, and I bought, I
21:17
think, XML for dummies, the
21:21
closest thing I could find at
21:21
the time to podcasting for
21:24
dummies, and I read that book,
21:24
from cover to cover twice. No
21:28
one ever reads a dummies book
21:28
from cover to cover. But I did I
21:30
read that thing from cover to
21:30
cover. Now I opened up the giant
21:33
Bible of how to write a book
21:33
that they did. And read those
21:35
things went Oh, here, this makes
21:35
sense. Okay, yep, that on a
21:38
Sunday night, hammer out my
21:38
chapter, just hammer out outline
21:41
is already done. Just hammer the
21:41
chapter, send it in Monday
21:45
night, they returned it, the
21:45
reach changes.
21:47  Alban
Whoa.
21:49  Evo
Now, that's not because I'm
21:49
so much smarter than ti i didn't
21:52
have to unlearn any bad habits.
21:52
I just had to learn all of these
21:55
habits. So it basically taught
21:55
me how to write the way for
21:58
dummies, books are written. And
21:58
that's how I do everything from
22:02
now on super short sentences,
22:02
super short paragraphs, all of
22:05
these things done together. So
22:05
that's kind of the How to story
22:09
as far as what went in it. You
22:09
know, again, we wrote this book
22:12
in 2005, we knew podcasting was
22:12
going to change drastically. So
22:15
how do we make it not out of
22:15
date as soon as it's in print?
22:19
So we really kept it to much
22:19
more high level concepts. So
22:23
yeah, we talked about audacity,
22:23
but audacity is still around
22:27
Luckily, and we didn't do a push
22:27
this button and do this. But we
22:30
tried to resist that as much as
22:30
we as we possibly could, you
22:33
know, instead, we talked about,
22:33
you know, the value of writing,
22:36
you know, episode details and
22:36
how it was back then it was how
22:39
to do an FTP, no one FTP user
22:39
episodes any longer to various
22:42
services, a lot of things that
22:42
don't matter today. But the
22:45
other good thing about the for
22:45
dummies titles is they refresh
22:48
them all the time. So we got a
22:48
chance to write the second
22:51
edition a couple of years later,
22:51
and I have since stepped back
22:55
from writing the books to still
22:55
writing them. Another friend of
22:58
mine, Chuck Tomasi, who has also
22:58
been writing for Podcasting Q&A
23:01
long time. They just came out
23:01
with the fourth edition I think
23:04
in November of last year was was
23:04
the new version, or whatever the
23:08
middle of that there's also
23:08
expert podcasting practices for
23:11
dummies, which they asked us to
23:11
write which I said, That's the
23:14
dumbest book name ever. So I'll
23:14
write it but at double the road
23:17
the payment to which they save
23:17
Yes, which was good news, and
23:22
I'm glad they gave me double
23:22
their money because that book
23:24
came nowhere near earning out
23:24
it's advanced, because that's a
23:27
dumb title, expert for dummies,
23:27
whether it be fine. But anyhow,
23:31
those are the books that I've
23:31
written in the podcasting space.
23:34  Alban
Yeah, I have to ask you
23:34
this. Because you have written
23:38
some other books have is it
23:38
healthy to eat only sausage and
23:43
beer for an entire month?
23:45  Evo
Very healthy. I am living
23:45
proof of how healthy that can be
23:49
as you're speaking of the the
23:49
beer diet, a brew story, which I
23:54
wrote what a decade ago, because
23:54
I had this crazy idea of what
23:58
would happen if the only food I
23:58
put in my mouth, the only
24:03
calories that I put in my mouth
24:03
for an entire month would be
24:07
beer and sausage, what would
24:07
happen. And I did all this
24:10
because a very good friend of
24:10
mines a he's a surgeon and we
24:14
were lamenting one day about
24:14
diets and how there's just not a
24:17
lot of good data. There's a lot
24:17
of survey data where they send
24:21
researchers and they ask people
24:21
what they eat, you know, but but
24:24
there's not a lot of real
24:24
activity let's let's track the
24:28
real food that goes inside of
24:28
someone's mouth. So I decided to
24:31
do that for a month. It was the
24:31
beer and sausage to see what
24:35
would happen. And spoiler alert,
24:35
it was actually very good for
24:40
me. I mean, I lost I think 15
24:40
pounds that first year. I went I
24:44
went to see that same doctor
24:44
every single week with blood
24:46
work and full evaluation you
24:46
know before and after. And
24:49
during my liver enzymes never
24:49
rose above baseline so I wasn't
24:54
getting that drunk. And my my
24:54
triglycerides, the bad
24:59
cholesterol cut in Half on my
24:59
overall cholesterol down by a
25:01
third, I lost 15 pounds. So,
25:01
yeah, do it. Now I don't know
25:06
how sustainable it is long term
25:06
to eat nothing but sausage and
25:10
drink beer, probably not very
25:10
sustainable. But it proved the
25:13
point that diets are pretty much
25:13
garbage. If you control your
25:17
caloric intake, you'll probably
25:17
lose weight.
25:19  Alban
Yeah, if you eat less,
25:19
you might lose some weight.
25:22
That's a good advice. Like
25:24  Evo
I tell people, I lost
25:24
weight on that diet because of
25:26
math, you know, I burn around
25:26
2200 calories just sitting here
25:30
all day long. But if I only put
25:30
in 1500 calories, that's a net
25:35
deficit of 700 calories. And it
25:35
has to come from somewhere. And
25:40
it comes from the extra mass
25:40
that my body had been caring
25:43
for. And
25:44  Alban
one thing that you're
25:44
pretty passionate about between
25:48
your history, podcasting, and
25:48
also your history, writing
25:51
books, is independent creators.
25:51
And you have a lot of thoughts
25:57
about how people who are
25:57
creating content can and should
26:02
remain independent. Can you tell
26:02
us a little bit about that?
26:04  Evo
Well, listen, you know,
26:04
independence, is what most
26:08
people have as their only
26:08
option. You know, there are a
26:12
lot of people out there and
26:12
offering exclusive deals I
26:14
remember back when, when Amazon
26:14
really launched the Kindle. And
26:19
then very quickly, they started
26:19
in this Amazon exclusive where
26:21
authors could publish just with
26:21
Amazon and get a much higher
26:26
royalty rate. But that means you
26:26
couldn't publish to Barnes and
26:29
Noble and all the other places
26:29
like that. And that was great.
26:32
But you know, not a lot of that
26:32
wasn't offered to everyone. And
26:35
we're seeing something similar
26:35
now in podcasting today, where
26:38
some companies, okay, one
26:38
company, Spotify is throwing
26:42
piles of cash at people to make
26:42
them exclusive. And, you know,
26:45
exclusive means only on Spotify
26:45
for listening that deal. And I
26:50
and I totally understand why
26:50
they do this. But I mentioned
26:53
giant piles of cash, right, when
26:53
you, you can get a lot more
26:57
money doing it that way. But
26:57
that path isn't open to most
27:01
people. In fact, it's not even
27:01
open to exist a small percentage
27:04
who get that deal. So there's
27:04
always a strong independent
27:08
movement in in everything, it's
27:08
some things you it's easy to be
27:12
independent in like podcasting,
27:12
like writing those two things,
27:16
specifically, some things, it's
27:16
a lot harder to be an
27:18
independent, and like, if you're
27:18
an independent musician, you
27:21
know, I was an independent
27:21
musician back at the turn of the
27:23
century. And that's a hard gig
27:23
unless a label picks you up,
27:26
you're not gonna be played on
27:26
the radio, or picked up in
27:28
bookstores. But that's changed.
27:28
You know, even in the radio
27:31
world now, or the music world.
27:31
Now that's changed. Any artists
27:34
can have their own stuff on
27:34
Spotify, for example, and other
27:37
platforms that let that listen
27:37
to. So I think the world's
27:40
becoming a bit more
27:40
accommodating towards
27:42
independent people, independent
27:42
creators, which is good news,
27:46
because again, the bulk of
27:46
creation of almost everything is
27:50
independent creators, with
27:50
exclusively exclusivity only
27:54
offered to the elite class. And
27:54
there's always going to be a
27:57
clash with that. But, but I
27:57
think that's okay. And I, I
28:00
mean, I don't think we're ever
28:00
going to see a world where
28:02
exclusive exclusivity goes away,
28:02
and everything's on a nice level
28:06
playing field. I don't live in
28:06
that fantasy world. But you
28:08
know, there's a lot more people
28:08
who are independent, and I think
28:11
there always will be. And so
28:11
let's just find ways to be
28:14
independent and successful,
28:14
because that's doable.
28:16  Alban
What should somebody be
28:16
doing? If they know that the
28:19
path for them is independence?
28:19
Maybe that's actually what's
28:22
attractive about creating
28:22
content, whether it be written
28:25
or podcasting, they want to be
28:25
their own boss run their own
28:29
media empire? What, however big
28:29
or small that may end up being?
28:33
How should they think about what
28:33
should I do to remain
28:36
independent, and also, at least
28:36
hopefully be successful along
28:39
the way?
28:40  Evo
Yeah, I think everyone's
28:40
going to well, not everyone, but
28:42
some people are going to face a
28:42
choice in that path. Because we
28:45
may start out thinking, I want
28:45
to be independent, and I want to
28:48
be in control of my future. And
28:48
these are all very, very good
28:50
things. And I'm not even worried
28:50
about exclusivity. I'm not even
28:53
looking for exclusivity. But at
28:53
some point, I might happen. You
28:57
might get that offer, someone
28:57
will maybe maybe send you an
29:01
email and says, Hey, we like
29:01
your stuff. Can we talk about
29:04
our relationship? And maybe
29:04
that's that deal of exclusivity
29:08
is float out there to you. So
29:08
you're gonna have to make a
29:10
decision? What do you want to
29:10
do? Is it really important for
29:14
you to stay truly independent?
29:14
Or do you think for whatever
29:19
reason, this opportunity is
29:19
better for you to create the
29:23
content that you make? There's
29:23
that old adage about, you know,
29:26
people who, you know, they sell
29:26
out the record label and record
29:30
label come along. And now I'm a
29:30
sellout because I took all the
29:32
money to this stuff. And my
29:32
argument to that has always been
29:35
this, I don't believe there's a
29:35
chance of selling out. I believe
29:38
there's only a chance of selling
29:38
out too cheaply. If you do, you
29:43
know, if you get the right kind
29:43
of money. What can you do with
29:46
that money if Spotify offered
29:46
you $60 million for your
29:51
independent podcast? Sure, you
29:51
could put the $60 million in
29:54
your pocket, or can you use that
29:54
$60 million to launch something
29:58
even bigger than you had? pretty
29:58
quickly, can you can you empower
30:01
other people who have similar
30:01
voices to yours, whoever you
30:04
have underserved voices than
30:04
yours? Can you have them do
30:07
different things? So I
30:07
understand that if independence
30:10
is the most important thing,
30:10
then just stay independent,
30:12
right? Do the things that you
30:12
want to do. But I would counsel
30:15
anyone to don't automatically
30:15
say I'll never is a very long
30:20
time, right. So the right
30:20
opportunity comes around, I
30:22
think that should all be
30:22
evaluated. And you know, make
30:24
sure that what you're going to
30:24
do, it makes it good for you,
30:28
but also that spread the wealth
30:28
around the rest of the world,
30:30
too.
30:31  Alban
I've heard you described.
30:31
I'm not sure if you were the
30:33
person who originated this, but
30:33
as podcasts philosopher, the
30:37
person who's trying to make
30:37
podcasting better. You had a
30:41
little hinted at right there.
30:41
What should we be doing to make
30:44
podcasting better?
30:45  Evo
Wow, there's so many things
30:45
we can do. can make podcasting
30:48
better? I think I'll answer that
30:48
question by dealing into why I
30:52
chose that particular path of
30:52
making podcasting better.
30:56
Through the 17 years that I
30:56
mentioned previously, it's
30:59
gotten a lot easier to podcast,
30:59
it's gotten a lot easier to
31:02
listen to podcasts, it's even
31:02
gotten easier to make money from
31:05
podcasting. And there are all
31:05
sorts of tools out there that
31:07
are based on ease, ease, ease,
31:07
and all the tutorials you're
31:11
here to, here's 10 easy ways to
31:11
start this, whatever. And I felt
31:15
that there wasn't enough
31:15
emphasis on making things
31:18
actually better. Because just
31:18
because something's easy,
31:22
doesn't mean it's better. I was
31:22
involved in a project for
31:24
several years that help
31:24
independent authors put their
31:28
audio books that they would self
31:28
record out into the world. And I
31:31
got to tell you, most of them
31:31
are garbage. So sturgeons law
31:35
95% of anything is crap. And
31:35
they were, I didn't feel like I
31:38
was really helping make things
31:38
better. Through that service. I
31:42
mean, it did it. It was
31:42
important. People had their own
31:44
passion and skill and what out
31:44
there so so that's fine. I
31:46
didn't feel bad about it. I was
31:46
I was definitely cutting people
31:49
off at the knees. I wanted to
31:49
put really terrible things out
31:52
there like offensive things. No,
31:52
no, thank you. We don't need
31:54
that out there. But I really
31:54
wanted to focus more about what
31:57
things what things are better.
31:57
And I also wanted to take a look
32:01
at some of the more important
32:01
questions or importance around
32:05
when I say that deeper questions
32:05
like, why would a lot of how
32:10
stuff out there but not a lot of
32:10
conversation around why we do
32:14
things and how the changing
32:14
world whether that's technology
32:18
or geopolitical landscaping has
32:18
changed? How will that impact
32:22
podcasting? Where are those
32:22
who's thinking about that, and
32:24
there, while there are people
32:24
who think about them, and a lot
32:26
of my friends, think about that,
32:26
that have been for the longest
32:28
time, no one really had a show
32:28
about thinking about those sort
32:32
of deep thoughts in the
32:32
podcasting space. And so that's
32:35
why I launched podcast
32:35
pontifications, just to do that,
32:38
to add to have a platform to
32:38
where I could come up with these
32:41
ideas and thoughts that are
32:41
around ways to not only make
32:44
podcasting better, and what the
32:44
future of podcasting is going to
32:47
look like, but also have to
32:47
tackle some of those more
32:50
complicated questions. And, you
32:50
know, see what other forces
32:54
macro and micro might impact the
32:54
podcasting world because that's
32:58
happening. You know, every day I
32:58
pandemic had a huge impact in
33:02
podcasting. It wasn't the impact
33:02
any of us thought it was going
33:05
to be, I don't think, but it
33:05
certainly had an indelible
33:07
impact on what podcasting is
33:07
today. And it's not like that
33:11
change is ever going to go away.
33:11
So that's important for me
33:14
personally, to think about ways
33:14
to make things better to talk
33:17
about the future. And think
33:17
about those deep thoughts around
33:20
podcasting.
33:21  Alban
One of the things I
33:21
talked about a lot, what I truly
33:24
love about podcasting is there's
33:24
it's a, it's a different medium
33:28
than YouTube, it's a different
33:28
medium than blogs, or Twitter or
33:33
anywhere else. Because it's
33:33
prioritizing this really long
33:36
form content, we're often
33:36
checking into I mean, there's
33:40
podcasts that go three, four
33:40
hours, many podcasts are 45
33:45
minutes long, and we can get
33:45
into a little bit more depth, a
33:48
little bit more nuance and
33:48
understand people's opinions a
33:52
little bit better. And there's a
33:52
lot more rain people together
33:57
over a podcast and sharing ideas
33:57
than maybe we get over on
34:03
Twitter sometimes where it's
34:03
more mostly us all just taking
34:06
hot takes and other people's hot
34:06
takes. And yeah, it's what why I
34:12
recommend podcasts not just as a
34:12
listener, but also as a creator,
34:16
and also to brands because
34:16
you're engaging, we have to
34:20
engage with the medium that we
34:20
want to improve in the medium we
34:24
think has the best chance of
34:24
improving people's lives. And I
34:27
think that podcasting by virtue
34:27
of being in your ears, and your
34:33
attentions, often, you know,
34:33
you're doing the dishes, you're
34:37
mowing the lawn or you're
34:37
driving or something else.
34:39
You're willing to stick with a
34:39
little bit longer. You're not
34:43
just there on a Saturday hung
34:43
over thinking I guess I'll watch
34:46
a few dozen YouTube videos.
34:46
Right.
34:49  Evo
Right. Right, right. Yeah,
34:49
I think you're right in all of
34:52
that. You know, it certainly
34:52
does allow for I think, I don't
34:56
know that a board longer but I'm
34:56
a little deeper, deeper
34:58
conversation. We now are I know
34:58
that and you know this and
35:02
anybody listening to podcasts
35:02
knows that there is a deeper
35:05
connection made. When you hear
35:05
someone say something, then when
35:11
you read someone who's written
35:11
things, because we have to put
35:14
our own inflection in text, and
35:14
I can only do so much with
35:17
italics and bold, right? I mean,
35:17
it only conveys so much. But I
35:22
can convey a lot more as I'm
35:22
speaking, anybody can convey a
35:25
lot more as you're speaking. So
35:25
just the the audio medium itself
35:29
enables a much deeper
35:29
connection, if you will, when it
35:34
comes to you know, how much the
35:34
length issue, you know, how long
35:38
do you take things? Absolutely,
35:38
there are some of the most
35:40
popular podcasts in the world go
35:40
for four and a half hours. What
35:43
I like to recommend to people
35:43
when they're thinking about that
35:45
is you have the ability to be
35:45
interesting for four and a half
35:49
hours. No, I don't know that you
35:49
do. I mean, most people don't,
35:52
right? Like I'm a hockey fan.
35:52
And I'm loving right now when
35:55
we're recording this it's
35:55
semifinals for hockey, go Habs
36:00
find that if we're losing on
36:00
Thursday night. But I've also
36:04
used to coach youth hockey
36:04
because my kid played hockey all
36:07
growing up. And I love nothing
36:07
more than to sit in a stadium
36:10
and watch an NHL game. For the
36:10
three hours it takes from Puck
36:14
drop until the final whistle
36:14
blows. I don't want to watch a
36:17
three hour Little League game,
36:17
or a mites game or anything
36:21
else, right? Because there, it's
36:21
not entertaining. I'm good for
36:23
watching kids play for about 30
36:23
minutes. And that's it. That's
36:27
not interesting, right? After
36:27
seven point times, like, oh,
36:29
you're not gonna see the skill
36:29
on whatever. So yes, by all
36:32
means, dig deep into a topic.
36:32
But make sure that you can be
36:36
interesting for the entire
36:36
length of that topic. One of the
36:39
smartest things to do is if you
36:39
can't, you'd be interesting for
36:42
four hours, maybe you can be
36:42
interested in 30 minutes a time
36:45
for eight episodes, that'll give
36:45
me the same number, you'll still
36:49
get the four hours out of the
36:49
day. But that's how long it
36:51
takes to cover something. But
36:51
you've also got to think about
36:53
where your audience is in their
36:53
headspace and what they're doing
36:55
and do they have another they
36:55
have four hours extra in their
36:58
week to fit another podcast. Now
36:58
all those questions are out
37:01
there. Because we can make them
37:01
as long as we want. We can also
37:05
make them as short as we want,
37:05
we get our own rules with us.
37:09
And we're not beholden to
37:09
anybody else's schedule, or a
37:12
clock or something else, it's up
37:12
to us and our audience what we
37:15
want. So find a way to be
37:15
interesting for the right amount
37:18
of time, is my suggestion.
37:20  Alban
Some advice I've seen you
37:20
run across a few times that you
37:23
give in is for people to kind of
37:23
do their research. And I always
37:27
take this back to if you want to
37:27
be the expert, if you want to be
37:31
the person who has the dungeons
37:31
and dragons podcast, then you've
37:34
got to know about Dungeons and
37:34
Dragons. And you need to be
37:38
playing it and you need to be I
37:38
don't know anything. So I'm now
37:41
pulling this out, we've got to
37:41
have been a dungeon master and
37:44
you need to read the books. And
37:44
it's pretty apparent when people
37:46
are doing a podcast and they are
37:46
more excited about being the
37:51
personality on the podcast
37:51
versus being the actual person
37:57
who's putting the work into
37:57
creating the show.
37:59  Evo
Well, that's the thing,
37:59
right? I mean, to do a podcast
38:02
you can most podcasts are a mix
38:02
of entertaining and
38:06
informational, right. And if
38:06
you're just there to be
38:08
entertaining, you're just there
38:08
to tell jokes, fine, then tell
38:11
jokes really well or tell
38:11
stories really well if that's
38:13
what your skill set is. But if
38:13
you're trying to impart
38:15
knowledge, even if it's
38:15
something as mundane as a d&d,
38:18
podcast or any other role
38:18
playing game podcast, in order
38:21
for you to convey information,
38:21
you have to be at least as
38:24
informed as the people who are
38:24
listening to your show. And
38:27
probably even more so of doing
38:27
that. So I have a lot of
38:30
interests that I will never
38:30
podcast about. I'm an avid disc
38:34
golf player. I love disc golf.
38:34
But I'm not gonna make a podcast
38:38
about disc golf, because I don't
38:38
play it that often. And I'm
38:40
certainly not any good. And so
38:40
what am I going to do say? Well,
38:43
I went out and threw some
38:43
plastic in the woods today. The
38:47
End, alright, that'd be the full
38:47
show. Right? It wouldn't be all
38:49
that interesting. I've lived
38:49
through this when I was
38:51
interviewing science fiction
38:51
authors back in the day, I got
38:54
to the point where I didn't want
38:54
to do it anymore. At least not
38:57
until I'd read the book. And it
38:57
takes me you know, a couple of
39:00
weeks to read through a science
39:00
fiction novel, and we're putting
39:03
on a show every single week. So
39:03
that's tough, you know? And if I
39:06
didn't read the book, then I'm
39:06
asking Dumb Questions like where
39:09
do you get your ideas? And
39:09
what's the book about? You know,
39:13
these are just dumb questions
39:13
that you don't get a good
39:15
interviewers either read the
39:15
book, or here's the trick. They
39:18
have their staff read the book.
39:18
And then they give them
39:21
questions to ask so that they
39:21
can have a longer conversations
39:23
to to have the illusion, if you
39:23
will, of knowledge about that,
39:28
but somebody else on the team
39:28
actually did. So yeah, you got
39:31
to do your research. You got to
39:31
know what you're talking about.
39:34
And that's Don't Don't forget
39:34
that it's Yes, I get it. It's
39:38
fun to have a podcast. It's a
39:38
blast. And there's a charge you
39:41
get by talking to the
39:41
microphone, but you don't want
39:43
to come off sounding like a
39:43
moron if you can avoid it, and
39:45
you can just do your research.
39:47  Alban
And it's gonna be hard to
39:47
keep up with podcasting because,
39:51
you know, and I know and lots of
39:51
our viewers and listeners know
39:55
it's really hard to grow a show
39:55
and if you aren't enjoying the
39:59
show Front End work, the
39:59
research the putting the show
40:03
together the recording, it's
40:03
gonna be tough to stick with it
40:07
on the timescale that you will
40:07
need to, if you want your show
40:10
to be successful
40:11  Evo
really is Yeah, you're
40:11
exactly right. You know, I help
40:14
a variety of clients, some of
40:14
which I helped do the research
40:18
on but most I doubt, but I'm
40:18
fortunate enough to be plugged
40:20
in to the conversations they're
40:20
having with their their usually
40:24
it's a team of people that are
40:24
actually doing the research. And
40:27
it's just amazing how much
40:27
effort really goes into a show
40:31
it is readily to my clients just
40:31
sit down and talk with a guest.
40:35
You know, they are have done
40:35
research, they've got good
40:37
questions, they've taken the
40:37
time to listen to what that
40:40
person has said on other shows,
40:40
and try and not ask them the
40:43
same questions over and over
40:43
again. They figured out what
40:47
their own unique angle is, which
40:47
I talked about quite a lot. You
40:49
got to have an angle A topic is
40:49
not enough. So what why is this
40:52
person going to be on the show?
40:52
What is your show about? And
40:54
what do you want to bring out
40:54
from them? All that is so
40:58
important, and it can take it
40:58
will it will take hours if
41:02
you're lucky, single digit
41:02
hours, but it's not uncommon to
41:04
be double digit hours to really,
41:04
really do your homework. So
41:08
yeah, that's a it's a lot of
41:08
work to make a show worthy of
41:12
growth.
41:13  Alban
What do you tell your
41:13
clients? And if they say, all
41:15
right, I need to have a unique
41:15
angle that makes sense. What's
41:18
my unique watching this? What's
41:18
their unique angle? How do
41:22
people figure it out?
41:23  Evo
Oh, my gosh, it is it is so
41:23
hard to do. But unfortunately,
41:25
it's not something that someone
41:25
else can give you. And that's
41:28
that's the problem, it really
41:28
becomes a true process, you
41:30
know, of what it is you want to
41:30
what you want to get to. And
41:35
everybody's got a different
41:35
process about it. What I like to
41:37
do the way the way I figure it
41:37
out, and why I counsel my
41:40
clients to do that is figure out
41:40
what your topic you're going to
41:43
talk about. Let's let's do we'll
41:43
go stick with d&d podcast for
41:46
just a moment, right, you're
41:46
gonna you're going to talk about
41:48
d&d, maybe you're not a d&d
41:48
podcast, you're going to bring
41:50
on a guest, and you're gonna
41:50
bring on Gary Gygax, who I think
41:53
might be dead. You started d&d
41:53
back in the day? Not that I
41:56
know, I know. And you want to
41:56
talk about something, right? So
42:01
you got to think about your
42:01
angle is going to be so I start
42:03
writing out questions, right?
42:03
And then figuring out where the
42:06
theme is, is there a commonality
42:06
is the thread to this? And then
42:10
once I've got a few questions
42:10
down, second thing to think
42:12
about is, what is what
42:12
perspective works for your show.
42:17
So if you're doing your
42:17
interview, one of the creators
42:20
of d&d for your your show, and
42:20
it's about, oh, let's just say
42:26
that it's basically it's a music
42:26
podcast, but whatever, it's got
42:29
its roots in pop culture, and
42:29
you got music and you want to
42:31
talk about that. Great, then you
42:31
might want to lead the
42:34
conversation into something
42:34
around the themes of music, you
42:37
know, fav fan creative music, or
42:37
you know, Ren faire music, or
42:42
weird violins and stuff. And you
42:42
can ask, you know, questions
42:44
that are about that. But you've
42:44
just got to figure out, and I
42:47
know, I'm kind of given a non
42:47
answer here. But what is your
42:50
show secret sauce? What is your
42:50
secret sauce? And what's the
42:53
guest bring in somewhere?
42:53
There's a Venn diagram, where
42:56
those overlap. And that's where
42:56
you want to be, you know, kind
42:58
of in the middle of that, where
42:58
it actually all makes sense to
43:02
take the conversation and then
43:02
ask questions. That way. As long
43:05
as you're not interviewing
43:05
Arthur C. Clarke and Ray
43:07
Bradbury, then your your angle
43:07
means nothing. Just gonna talk
43:10
with these guys and see where
43:11  Unknown
you're along for the
43:11
ride. Yeah, exactly.
43:13
Right.
43:14  Alban
What are the big red
43:14
flags I see is when people say,
43:17
Oh, I want to start a podcast.
43:17
I've got all the gear, I'm ready
43:21
to go. What are the most popular
43:21
category? Yeah. Because it what
43:27
is what does that tell you? And
43:27
so what is that? Man,
43:29  Evo
it tells me that shows not
43:29
going to live for very long.
43:33
Because, you know, you and I
43:33
both know that it's the rare
43:37
show that comes out of the gate
43:37
that gets, you know, 100
43:40
listeners, let alone 10s of
43:40
1000s to make it some sort of a
43:43
going concern, right? So you got
43:43
to be in this thing for the long
43:46
haul. So if your decision of
43:46
what to podcast about was
43:49
predicated on what the most
43:49
popular things are, and it's not
43:52
something you're particularly
43:52
interested in, are going to burn
43:55
out real quickly on that you
43:55
might not even make it to seven
43:58
episodes, let alone two or three
43:58
episodes. Yeah, it has to be
44:02
something where you really want
44:02
to do this, or you've got piles
44:08
and piles of cash behind you to
44:08
pay someone to do it. And also
44:10
to pay someone to market it to
44:10
get it out there. You know, one
44:12
of those two things has to
44:12
happen. But yeah, I see it all
44:15
the time. You know, hey, I've
44:15
got all this equipment, you
44:17
know, what should I What should
44:17
I podcast about? And it's like,
44:20
I just bought this typewriter.
44:20
What kind of books should I
44:22
write? You know, said no author
44:22
ever, right? You know, no one
44:25
thinks about that this way. So
44:25
yeah, I get that you want to
44:28
chase a trend, but you might
44:28
want to just learn the craft.
44:31
First, you know, podcast,
44:31
whatever is interesting to you.
44:34
And if it takes you a month or a
44:34
year or 10 years to figure it
44:38
out, great. Do that and then you
44:38
can start going Okay, now let's
44:41
be more opportunistic. And let's
44:41
look at where the opportunities
44:43
really live.
44:45  Alban
I've never minded this, I
44:45
think is advice from Stephen
44:48
King and he said, whenever he
44:48
has a writing workshop, the
44:51
first question in q&a is to use
44:51
a typewriter Do you use a word
44:56
processor is everything done by
44:56
pen and He goes, this has
45:02
nothing to do with the writing
45:02
process, it doesn't matter, it
45:05
doesn't matter if you are
45:05
recording on a Nv seven and SM
45:10
seven B, or, or just directly
45:10
into your phone. Yeah, they're
45:16
they're slightly different.
45:16
They're different tools. And
45:19
some are getting a little bit
45:19
better sound quality. But the
45:22
thing that you've got to learn
45:22
on your own really is going to
45:25
be the craft of actually
45:25
thinking through a story kind of
45:29
putting together an outline,
45:29
actually recording it if you if
45:33
it's getting guests on the right
45:33
way to craft a pitch, or getting
45:38
a good chemistry with your co
45:38
host or whoever you're
45:41
podcasting with. or, in the case
45:41
of audio dramas actually going
45:45
through the real hard work of
45:45
writing out a story. That's the
45:49
craft, the craft is not being
45:49
like Oh, the Okay, so this cable
45:54
plugs in here that plugs into
45:54
the computer and now are set.
45:58
Exactly right.
45:59  Evo
And one of the shows that I
45:59
love listening to and I'll give
46:01
an unsolicited plug for a
46:01
podcast called how sound and how
46:05
sound is amazing, because it is
46:05
all about the craft of audio
46:10
storytelling. And you heard a
46:10
little bit of talk about gear in
46:15
there, but it's more of a wow,
46:15
this was recorded on a you know,
46:19
eight bit recorder, you know,
46:19
because that's what someone had
46:22
at the time. And this one is
46:22
done on an iPhone, because
46:26
that's what they had at the time
46:26
when the Congress when the
46:29
inspiration struck when the
46:29
opportunity was there. It's now
46:32
what do you do with the sound?
46:32
Right? It's it's all about how
46:34
do you craft that sound? And but
46:34
yeah, oftentimes in the
46:38
podcasting world, it's all about
46:38
what microphone do you use? What
46:42
dog do you use? What podcast
46:42
hosting company do you use? What
46:45
social media sites should you
46:45
use? And none of it's important?
46:49
It's all important, but none of
46:49
it's important, right? Not at
46:51
this level. Not at this level.
46:51
When you get further up, then
46:53
you know, you can start having
46:53
you know, companies like oh, MB
46:56
seven or some seven B, I wonder
46:56
which one I should? Okay, that's
46:58
a valid conversation of
46:58
eventually. But right now, just
47:02
learn how to do the thing. And
47:02
you can wind up changing your
47:05
tool sets out later on, but you
47:05
got to have the craft first,
47:09
right, you know, you know, by
47:09
your very first hammer and say,
47:11
should I build a house? Or
47:11
should I build a boat? What do
47:15
think I'm going to do? No, we're
47:15
not a word with wood. Step one.
47:19  Alban
I have recently started
47:19
playing golf, and I hit some
47:23
ball into the woods and someone
47:23
goes, Oh, let me look at your
47:25
driver. Why don't you try this
47:25
driver? And I went, well, I know
47:30
that the problem is not the
47:30
driver. And they're like, Oh,
47:32
what is it and I was like, the
47:32
problem is that I'm not good at
47:34
golf. Like I know, this is the
47:34
limiting factor. And at least at
47:39
the beginning, the It's why we
47:39
always recommend the Samson cue
47:44
to use the mic, because it's a
47:44
great mic, it's not going to
47:48
hold you back. It's 60 bucks,
47:48
you get it. And then we get you
47:51
as quickly as we can to the real
47:51
process, which is okay, we put
47:55
the golf club in your hands,
47:55
right now, you've got to start
47:58
taking swings at it, and it's
47:58
gonna be frustrating. And it's
48:02
often you know, it's the
48:02
limiting factor in golf is me
48:06
the limiting factor in almost
48:06
everything is me. In podcasting,
48:09
the beginning, it's getting
48:09
comfortable with the sound of
48:11
your voice, figuring out how to
48:11
craft an episode and how to pull
48:15
that together in the editing
48:15
process to make it something
48:18
people want to listen to. Yeah,
48:19  Evo
yeah, it's rare that a
48:19
podcast that is floundering is
48:24
made better because of a bad
48:24
microphone. That certainly
48:26
happens. There are certainly
48:26
podcasts out there who got to
48:28
figured out how to upgrade their
48:28
equipment and things sound
48:30
better, but it's kind of not
48:30
gonna matter. For the longest
48:33
time, as you said, it's, it's
48:33
not the driver. It's the person
48:36
driving the driver. That is
48:36
really the challenge here.
48:39  Alban
We've kind of touched on
48:39
this a few different times with
48:44
the opportunities that have come
48:44
kind of towards you through
48:47
podcasting. Can you kind of just
48:47
talk a bit about what is the
48:50
value of podcasting, if we take
48:50
off the table for a second,
48:55
you're not going to get famous?
48:55
You're not going to make a lot
48:58
of money. You're creating a show
48:58
that you love, and maybe there
49:01
aren't a ton of people
49:01
listening. Give us the pitch for
49:05
that person to keep podcasting.
49:05
Well their pitch.
49:09  Evo
I think there is I think
49:09
there is and I'm gonna take it
49:13
back to a friend of mine who's
49:13
another long time. podcasters
49:17
name is Dave Slusher. Dave has
49:17
been doing the evil genius
49:20
Chronicles since the beginning
49:20
of time, he's actually doing
49:22
this longer than I have. And the
49:22
same show, by the way. So I
49:26
remember years ago, Dave was
49:26
having a conversation on his
49:31
show. Because a lot of us had
49:31
said, you know, it's something
49:34
pretty magical, even if you have
49:34
a small number. And the story I
49:36
always give to people is now
49:36
let's just imagine that every
49:40
day, excuse me, every week, you
49:40
went to your local library, and
49:44
you had a regular time, you're
49:44
gonna get 10 o'clock every
49:47
Sunday, you're showing up with
49:47
this library. And every time you
49:50
did that you walked in the room
49:50
and there were 30 people in that
49:53
room, eager to listen to the
49:53
things you had to say. You will
49:58
probably Keep going to that 10
49:58
o'clock appointment on Sunday,
50:03
forever. Because what a charge
50:03
is that to fill a room 30 people
50:08
listen to what you have to say.
50:08
Pretty awesome. Listen, I've
50:11
been on big keynote stages when
50:11
they have not been 30 people in
50:13
the room. So that's, it's pretty
50:13
powerful when you can fill
50:16
something up like them. It's
50:16
what I feel good about that yet.
50:19
When we listen to our we look at
50:19
our podcasts, that's we go, Oh,
50:22
I'm only getting you know, a
50:22
couple dozen downloads, you
50:25
know, I'm less than 100. You
50:25
know, it's, it's nowhere near
50:27
the average of 120 or whatever
50:27
else I'm not. And again, I just
50:31
remember, these people are
50:31
showing up all the time to do
50:33
that. So that's the story. I've
50:33
been pitching what I heard Dave
50:36
say one time, as he said, You
50:36
need to figure out what the
50:38
minimum viable number is for
50:38
you. The minimum size of the
50:43
audience that makes sense for
50:43
you as a podcaster. Is it 1000?
50:46
Okay, is it 100? Okay, Dave said
50:46
his number is one. And he is
50:53
that one. So as long as he likes
50:53
making the podcast, as long as
50:59
as a creative outlet for him,
50:59
that's good enough, it doesn't
51:03
matter what the numbers dropped
51:03
down to he won't abandon that.
51:06
So I'm not suggesting that your
51:06
number needs to be one. Although
51:09
I would say the minute you're no
51:09
longer interested in your
51:12
podcasts, you're probably not
51:12
you should probably recognize
51:15
that as a warning sign, it's
51:15
probably not going to be good
51:17
for the for a real length of
51:17
time. So I think the advice is,
51:22
you're probably statistically
51:22
speaking, you're not going to
51:24
get rich, you're not going to
51:24
get famous, you're going to make
51:27
a dime. In fact, you're going to
51:27
spend money to podcast, like
51:31
most of us do, it's going to
51:31
cost you money to podcast, but
51:33
so does everything else that you
51:33
do that you enjoy. You just
51:36
bought $1,000 carbon fiber
51:36
bicycle. Tell me when you win
51:41
the Tour de France, it's never
51:41
gonna happen, right? I mean,
51:44
statistically speaking, that's
51:44
not going to happen. Nor are you
51:46
going to enter in a contest or
51:46
various things. We, we spend
51:49
money on things that make us
51:49
feel good all the time. And I
51:52
don't know about you, but I
51:52
think I know about you,
51:55
podcasting makes you feel good,
51:55
it makes me feel good. So it's
51:58
worth it to me.
51:59  Alban
Pat Flynn talks a lot
51:59
about the value of
52:02
entrepreneurship, even if you
52:02
never make a ton of money off of
52:06
it, even if you're actually an
52:06
employee for your entire career.
52:09
Yeah, that kind of building some
52:09
of these skills, and working
52:13
this entrepreneurial muscle is
52:13
actually healthy for you. And
52:17
kind of what I hear you saying
52:17
is sometimes the art creation,
52:21
and the exploration and just
52:21
enjoying the hobby are valuable,
52:26
even if the likely thing that
52:26
happens is that your podcast
52:32
ends up in the, you know, low
52:32
100 downloads eventually. And if
52:37
you could reframe that, from a
52:37
number on a dashboard, as well,
52:43
these are the people who are
52:43
consistently on Wednesday
52:47
mornings, when they drive to
52:47
work. They pull up my show,
52:51
three times a week, they listen
52:51
to me pontificate about
52:55
podcasting, you know, that
52:55
people can actually if you know
52:58
that there's real people behind
52:58
those numbers who are actually
53:01
interested in the content. It
53:01
really changes. At least your
53:07
the way your relationship with
53:07
your podcast and your craft.
53:10  Evo
Yeah, Yeah, it does. And it
53:10
doesn't have to be
53:11
entrepreneurial in nature, for a
53:11
lot of people that have no
53:15
interest in trying to ever earn
53:15
money with this, it's not
53:20
something they would consider
53:20
because it's more just a
53:22
creative expression. And then
53:22
there a lot of people who were
53:24
in the middle, can I make some
53:24
money and and ply my craft at
53:29
the same time and get better at
53:29
things possibly, or there's
53:31
other than the other. And so
53:31
it's it's a wide spectrum, once
53:33
again, of what people want to
53:33
get out of a show. But you're
53:36
right, we you need to go beyond
53:36
if you fancy yourself checking
53:40
your downloads every other day,
53:40
I would counsel you to stop
53:42
doing that. You know, and maybe
53:42
think about more things like how
53:46
do I get my audience to actually
53:46
just send me an email to say
53:48
thank you. Can I get my audience
53:48
to tell somebody else about my
53:52
show? Maybe I'll get another
53:52
listener that will email me
53:54
Well, what else can I do? How
53:54
can I foster some sense of
53:56
community? So I can get
53:56
something back from the
53:59
audience. If I want something
53:59
back from the audit, you know,
54:01
not everybody does. But gassing
54:01
is very much a one way medium we
54:05
have here to turn to talk about
54:05
as some way you haven't
54:07
accomplished people, but we're
54:07
not. You know, I'm talking to a
54:09
microphone. If I'm talking to
54:09
you, you and I are having a
54:12
conversation here Alban. But the
54:12
rest of the people, they're just
54:14
listening to us. And you know,
54:14
it's it's effort, people can
54:17
shout back at their phones, I
54:17
guess if they wanted to say if
54:20
they want to comment, but that's
54:20
harder to get to. So recognize
54:24
that not everybody is going to
54:24
get right back at you. And this
54:27
isn't Twitter. This isn't a
54:27
thing where you put something
54:29
out there and expect a whole
54:29
bunch of hearts, right? I mean,
54:31
the reality is, you're not going
54:31
to get a lot of feedback because
54:33
it's hard to push that feedback
54:33
out there. But it's nice to know
54:37
people are listening. So just
54:37
you know, occasionally ask
54:39
people send me a note, say
54:39
something to me, that I don't
54:43
mind people asking for that on
54:43
occasion for some sort of
54:45
feedback and because sometimes
54:45
just a simple email is enough to
54:48
keep someone going.
54:50  Alban
I actually got somebody
54:50
DM me on Twitter, who I did not
54:54
know listen to one of our shows
54:54
and it was more poking fun at
55:00
Dustin anything say, hey, you
55:00
keep talking about how word of
55:02
mouth is so important for
55:02
growing a podcast, you had a
55:06
podcaster on your show. And you
55:06
went 15 minutes without
55:09
mentioning the name of it. But
55:09
the thing that I actually walked
55:15
away with it was, wow, I really
55:15
got to up my game if this person
55:21
is listening, because I was so
55:21
excited to hear that. So what I
55:25
had a lot of respect for was
55:25
listening to our show. That's
55:28
fantastic. And it really is
55:28
important to get that feedback.
55:33
Do you have any ways for people
55:33
to do that to foster a community
55:36
around their podcast? Especially
55:36
if it's a smaller one? Oh, man,
55:39
it
55:40  Evo
is so hard. I mean, it is
55:40
insanely difficult to do. I
55:44
think the best thing to do is
55:44
try not to bifurcate your
55:49
audience don't don't break it up
55:49
for no apparent reason. There's
55:52
a natural inclination to when
55:52
you start podcasting, like Well,
55:55
I guess I need to get a Twitter
55:55
account because Twitter is big
55:57
in podcasting. And true. Twitter
55:57
is really big in podcasting many
56:01
podcasters many, because other
56:01
than Twitter accounts, I did an
56:04
Instagram page. Sure, yeah, do
56:04
that. And I bet we're gonna
56:06
Facebook and tic tocs big and
56:06
then I can't forget LinkedIn and
56:09
all these things well, and maybe
56:09
you should do all of those
56:13
things. I'm not suggesting that
56:13
you shouldn't do any of those
56:15
things. But that's a lot. You
56:15
know, and you give people too
56:19
many choices to communicate with
56:19
you, and they don't know which
56:22
one you prefer to do. So I like
56:22
to just keep things simple. You
56:25
know, I rarely mentioned my
56:25
Twitter account on my show,
56:29
which is about the only social
56:29
media network I pay any
56:32
attention to at all. But I'm
56:32
rarely considered one. I'm
56:36
usually pretty consistent about
56:36
telling people just to email me
56:39
Evo at simpler dot media,
56:39
because everybody, everybody has
56:45
email, even the kids who say
56:45
they don't email, let me know
56:47
when they're teenagers, maybe
56:47
they don't quite as much. But
56:49
that's going to happen,
56:49
eventually, you're gonna switch
56:51
over and send someone an email
56:51
at some point in time. But just
56:54
make it simple and repeat it.
56:54
You know, one time is not
56:58
enough. Oh, I mentioned this in
56:58
my show last week, and no one
57:01
responded, Well, look, people
57:01
need to hear things several
57:04
times. It's the Oh, what? Okay,
57:04
that mentality, I think I hear
57:07
like three different times
57:07
before they're going to make
57:08
Take, take a move at that. I got
57:08
some really good advice from
57:13
from drew from the from sleep
57:13
with me podcast, right. And he
57:17
said, don't, if you ask your
57:17
people to do one thing, and one
57:23
thing only for a year, you'll be
57:23
amazed what the results are. But
57:27
you got to do it for a year,
57:27
right? Whether that's tell a
57:30
friend about your show, or send
57:30
an email to or whatever else, do
57:33
that same thing for a year. And
57:33
you'll be amazed what the
57:37
results would be. So that's it.
57:37
If you want, that's what you
57:40
really want out of it is
57:40
communication and feedback from
57:42
your listeners. Great. Pick
57:42
something and repeat it again
57:47
and again. And again. And again.
57:47
And again. And after a year.
57:51
You'll be amazed at the results.
57:52  Alban
I definitely see this. I
57:52
know we both I mean, you have a
57:55
marketing background, I have
57:55
this my day to day job all the
57:59
time. If you ask people to do
57:59
five things, or four things, or
58:02
three or two, they do zero.
58:02
Yeah, yes, we will do one thing,
58:06
they might do one. And I see a
58:06
lot of people will sign off a
58:11
show or they will at the end of
58:11
it. Say tell a friend leave me a
58:15
review. Do this, send me an
58:15
email and subscribe on Patreon.
58:19
And I'm like, well, no one's
58:19
doing any of that. Right? Yeah,
58:22  Evo
yeah. You were good for a
58:22
while and then suddenly Oh, and
58:25
and because everybody what
58:25
people here in their head is an
58:28
odd or they hear and it's just
58:28
like, Well, I'm not doing any of
58:31
those things. That seems like a
58:31
silly thing to do. Yeah, keep it
58:34
really simple. And repetition is
58:34
so terribly important.
58:38  Alban
One last question,
58:38
because I want to be conscious
58:41
of your time and thank you for
58:41
being with us for so long. Sure.
58:44
You were, I think the headliner
58:44
of 2014. The first podcast
58:50
movement, yeah. Which probably
58:50
was the first podcast conference
58:54
ever. And we met at a I think
58:54
might have been at pod fest.
58:59
podcast conferences. I know mean
58:59
a lot to you. I mean, a lot to
59:03
me once this COVID thing we
59:03
start wrapping it up. Yeah.
59:06
What's the pitch for podcast
59:06
conferences?
59:08  Evo
Oh, man, I love in person
59:08
meetings with other podcasters.
59:13
It's It is such a such a great
59:13
thing. And I it's difficult to
59:18
communicate the real value that
59:18
you get from from a solid
59:21
podcast conference. You
59:21
mentioned podcast movement in
59:24
2014. Well, actually, the very
59:24
first podcast conferences were
59:27
in Ontario, California back in
59:27
2005. called the portable and
59:31
New Media Expo. And then they
59:31
change the name like for every
59:33
year for the next three years,
59:33
the dumbest thing ever. That's
59:36
where I met. That's where I met
59:36
Gary Leland, who was one of the
59:40
original guys who started
59:40
podcast move and Gary and I've
59:42
been friends since that time.
59:42
And the great thing about these
59:46
conferences is there are really
59:46
multiple ways you can connect.
59:51
There's the obvious way which
59:51
means you can go to the
59:54
sessions. You can listen to the
59:54
keynotes, and you can go to the
59:58
breakouts and you can get A lot
59:58
of information just in just soak
1:00:01
it all in. And just you're like
1:00:01
a podcast listener, that you're
1:00:04
a podcast conference attendee,
1:00:04
and you're just soaking in the
1:00:07
information. And there are
1:00:07
people who get a lot of value
1:00:10
out of that. And I love being on
1:00:10
stages and providing that value
1:00:13
out to people, and I get a
1:00:13
chance to go to those. But then
1:00:15
there's the other value, where I
1:00:15
get most of my value. And that's
1:00:19
just the conversations that
1:00:19
happen. It's being surrounded by
1:00:24
other people who we all have at
1:00:24
least one thing in common, at
1:00:28
least one thing in common is
1:00:28
podcasting. And you never know
1:00:31
where the conversations are
1:00:31
going to go. So I find myself
1:00:34
having Hallway Conversations,
1:00:34
lots of conversations in the
1:00:38
expo hall where the vendors are
1:00:38
meeting up with speakers.
1:00:42
Afterwards, seeing someone asked
1:00:42
a really great question in a
1:00:45
session, I'll seek that person
1:00:45
out afterwards, and talk to
1:00:48
them. I do that so much, I often
1:00:48
forget to go to the session I
1:00:52
had booked and occasionally
1:00:52
forget to go to the session I
1:00:56
supposed to be speaking at. I
1:00:56
try not to do that I get on my
1:01:00
mind. Now I have an alarm set on
1:01:00
my calendar. So I did that once.
1:01:02
And I won't I won't make that
1:01:02
mistake again. But that's the
1:01:05
value of these podcasts
1:01:05
conferences, as you're finally
1:01:07
meeting your tribe. They're
1:01:07
there in abundance, and they
1:01:11
have some of them have the same
1:01:11
opinions do some have very
1:01:13
different opinions than you, I
1:01:13
get different ways of doing
1:01:16
things. So it is the best
1:01:16
possible way to get an immediate
1:01:21
This is for me, but also this
1:01:21
isn't for me. You know, I know
1:01:25
some people who've gone to a
1:01:25
podcast happens and went, Oh,
1:01:27
yeah, that's too much. I don't
1:01:27
really want I thought I thought
1:01:30
I was doing this and that was
1:01:30
it. But now I recognize there's
1:01:31
all this too, I don't want to do
1:01:31
this anymore. And that's fine,
1:01:33
too. I mean, I'd rather you know
1:01:33
that ahead of time than not, but
1:01:37
just going and being an
1:01:37
experience online that I mean,
1:01:40
it's expensive, I get it, it
1:01:40
makes it very, it's out of the
1:01:43
price range for a lot of people
1:01:43
because everything's gotten more
1:01:46
expensive. And hotel rooms are