How can we get the most out of prefix analytics? And how can everyone use them to their best? Bryan and Karo talk about Prefix-analytics for the everyman.Key Links:
- Karo Chakhlasyan of Chartable
- Article: https://soundsprofitable.com/update/prefix-analytics
-----Are you using prefix analytics?___Credits:
- Hosted by Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable - firstname.lastname@example.org
- Audio engineering by Ian Powell
- Executive produced by Evo Terra of Simpler Media
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EP 24Bryan: Prefixes data and you that's what we're talking about this week on Sounds Profitable with me, Bryan Barletta.This episode of Sounds Profitable is brought to you by pod sites, podcast, attribution, go to pod sites.com for more information.I know that you're listening to Sounds Profitable because podcast ad tech is important to you, but it's important to me that you are kept up to date on the latest news from the entire podcast industry to help with that. Here's what happened last week. No matter when you're listening from James Cridland at Podnews.An article all about podcast, prefix analytics and their value. It's in the description for you to check out. But I never really got into who it was for and how useful this data can be for Johnny podcaster. So I spoke to Karo Chakhlasyan of charitable to get into the nitty-gritty of how these analytics are, not just for the big podcasters, but for anyone with a desire to learn and take them.Karo: Thank you so much for the opportunity to, um, chat with you about this. Thank you so much for the invite. Congratulations on all your success. It's amazing to see what you've done in such a little time. And I can't wait to see, uh, what happens, uh, in the coming months with you. Oh, that means a lot. I know the context of this is kind of like an extension of that article you wrote about analytic prefix.The article does a really good job of explaining what it is. Right. And, you know, I think I've explained it more to then, uh, almost, uh, the entire city of Pasadena has fingers and toes. Right. So I think if you don't mind just kind of reiterating that might kind of get a good picture. So right. The analytic prefix, the way I always explain it's a piece of code goes on the RSS.Reason why that's important. RSS feed is distributed essentially everywhere, right? I mean, more or less is prefixed as acting as a redirect. So what's happening is regardless. Device or a player when a user clicks play or download, right. It's pinging that RSS. However, with that analytic prefix, it pings that prefix, that piece of code and redirects download information somewhere and my case chartable right, but still passes through the request to the end user receives the MP3 file.Right. The key things to note, what is a download at the end of the day? Right. So IP address, user agent, user agent means, you know, iOS 14, apple podcasts, iPhone, I don't know, 12. The main reason why I wanted to kind of hit on that definition is because, you know, we're touching on the key thing. Uh, yeah.Which is it's, uh, a, it's allowing us to see what's going on with regards to the download. And then B of course, what, what makes up the download, the IP address, which is so important. And so companies like, uh, well, chartable right. What we've been doing is we've just been asking our social, what do we do with that?You know, it's been really quirky seeing media slowly. Kind of focusing on the IP address more and more and more, uh, right. And so, uh, essentially what we've done is, so you know what chartable is, right? It's an analytics and attribution platform. The reason why the prefix is so important to us is, well, uh, it redirects the download information to Chartwell, which allows us to will a display the downloads and be, do some cool stuff with it.Of course, the attribution piece, the thing I'm most excited about that I've been super, super bullish about internally. Is our partnership with a company called . So, Brian, I don't know if you want to kind of jump in and talk about live ramp and in your previous experience, orBryan: yeah, I want to peel things back for one second.We've actually, it's very cool. We actually had someone from live ramp on a previous statement and I love this stuff. I love the internet connected thing. Charitable and prefix partners have, have so much opportunity to be so many different things, but at its most basic, we need to think of it like Google analytics, right?Like just because I host on Squarespace or Wix or whatever, and they offer their own analytics and they all adhere to a specific guideline. Doesn't mean there's not value in having a third party. That third party is valuable because some people want to look at it at a different way or. It's also not always that easy for me to give you access to the thing that I own, my Squarespace, my Wix, or my podcast hosting platform for you to log in and check it out.Even if it was attractive, there are dozens upon dozens of podcast hosting platforms. So if I am a buyer, if I am someone looking to get data, if I represent a network, the idea of me having to log into 12 different platforms that if I can. To pull reporting, or if I had them all send me their reporting individually, none of them are going to align nobody's ever agreed on the format, the columns, any of that.So the value here, the value using a third-party for analytics like Google analytics, like chartable in this situation for a podcast. Is that it, it aggregates it at one place. It makes it easier to control. And it's close enough. The big thing I want to emphasize is IP address user agent, and the episode is not an exact science.We've agreed that this is what we got. We built a lot of business around it. The IAB has built a certification and a very healthy business.Karo: Yeah. Right.Bryan: The big thing to keep in mind is that. While it's not perfect. We're all agreeing on a central thing. And while we're agreeing on that central thing, we're close enough in single digit percentage that there is immense value in focusing on that.And so with a tool like chartable that you can put on as, you know, Joe podcasts or all the way up to Joe Rogan, you can check this stuff out. You can monitor this information the same way throughout your entire career, right. And you have ownership of it and you can share it very easily. And that's very attractive.The things that I like about charitable and these other companies in this space is that they don't just stop there now. Really cool here. And I want to give you guys a lot of credit. Privacy is a massive thing in the space right now, and charitable as well as megaphone and as well as a handful of others have gotten their teeth kicked in about privacy and ended up on block lists.And because we advocate so heavily that podcast listeners are some of the highest users of ad blockers and they're sophisticated. That gets attention. Chartable split their domains between Keira analytics and pure attribution. So that's very, very cool. So that the publishers that just want analytics like Google analytics, which doesn't necessarily connect into the rest of the platforms can separate that out from the ad buying and attribution side of it that has benefited.That's a really cool and powerful thing to say. And the fact that you guys responded so quickly and made that change, shows that you understand all the types of audience that you're working with. And I truly love that because podcasting is about giving the advertisers and the people fueling this space, what they want, but not.Threatening the audience. We as an industry, give more to the listeners than any other industry. Even when we have advocates out there claiming that things. Aren't great. They're not great, but they're way worse. Everywhere else. I don't know. This may not be the best way to put it, but like ad tech is getting better.We are ahead of the curve. Some of it is because we've chosen to like you guys splitting it out. And other parts of it are because we didn't have a choice. We don't get that.Karo: Yeah. And thank you so much for all of the nice things you set up in that. Absolutely. I mean, you know, the concept of privacy and security is pretty much number one for us.I don't know if you saw, we got the SOC two certification, which youBryan: explained SOC two a little bit, because I don't. Unless you are the person responsible for being part of that audit? You could care less.Karo: Well, I'll try to explain it as much as I can to the audience in mind. So, right. Like charitable is a software company, right.And at times, uh, we have to place a pixel or a piece of code on an advertiser's website or just. Taking a step back. We just have to interact with another business entity that also works on the internet. Right. And so first and foremost, they are extremely concerned about security, right? So more or less, every single time we engage with a new, um, client, right.They ask us to fill out these security forms and the security forms ask pretty basic questions. You know, where do you store the data? Right? Is it in the us? Is it external? Who could have access to it. Do you have a internal protocols on who could touch the data? Right. What happens if there's a data leak?Has there ever been a data leak? Right. So it's pretty tedious. Right. And quite frankly, when kind of going through the business development process. Oh boy. The, the, I call it legal purgatory, walking around wherever and yeah. So what SOC two certification is, is essentially we went to this auditing company, right.Uh, went through this grueling process of them, essentially taking a look back into how we manage data, right? Like what are the protocols that we use a chartable and are they aligned to a standard? Right. And that's the key thing here. Right? So the SOC two certification just essentially, no. Charitable or other companies, um, essentially they are following a very strict security protocol that we could all understand is kind of like the standard here.Right. And if anything, negative were to happen, we know exactly what they're going to do. So it's essentially just a handshake, right. An agreement that, uh, if something bad were to happen or, you know, how we think about the data. Or just security in general. Uh, there's just a basic understanding across the board of how now we're going to react to it.Right? What do we do? What are our protocols? So we received that certification essentially during that purgatory status and the biz dev process. Um, hopefully the certification just makes everything easy, right? It's, it's a, it's a huge sign of trust and it was quite painful receiving it. Right. Cause you got to document.My goodness. So you got, and it's the review and review and, you know, um, we're very fortunate that the co-founders Dave and Hareesh, I mean, they are security whizzes, right? Like they've since day one, that's been of a very high standard, even privacy. Right. And sometimes to our detriment right. Where we don't receive a contract because, you know, we dragged her feet or we weren't willing to, you know, take on certain liabilities.Cause it just, it just wouldn't make sense. So. Yeah. You know, taking it one step further and getting that certification, I think was a really important item for us. And one step further to, to what you're previously noting. Like it's not just for the client, but it very much like that's the audience, right?Like whoever we do business with, but the everyday user that interacts with charitable, right? Like they have to understand that. You're safe. You're secure. Anything you do with us is up to like a very high industry standard, right? So to your point, even, you know, uh, Joe and the garage down the street to us, it's extremely important for Joe down the street to understand that their data and how they're interacting with our website.It doesn't place them in a vulnerable position at all, ever as much as that's valid to, you know, Joe Rogan and Spotify. Right? So, um, for us, it was, it was huge to ensure that everyone across the board who interacts with us. You have so many different parties interacting with, with our site, uh, understand that privacy is a huge thing, right.And security as well. So we we've really, um, made that kind of like the key point for Chartwell.Bryan: Yeah. I like it at the simplest. Like you're saying it's, instead of filling out that form, you can just say we're SOC two compliant and that helps a lot. Everybody, you know, I've been an ad tech 12, 13 years at this point.And it's what I like about podcasting is that because it doesn't conform to the simple ways of like, Double-click campaign manager tag from Google and you know how that works and you don't have to vest into it because someone certified it at your company a billion years ago. And that's how it is.Things can be a little bit more loose. You know, I think that there are some companies that play a little loose with it. I think they regret it down the line when they have to maintain that, or they can't do it anymore because they're required or things change. And that's really tough. So like good on you guys for sitting in your ground there.I think lost business. You know, it it's tough and it can affect a lot, but it can always, it can always help down the line, especially when people struggle. But I think the big thing here is that just like certifying with the IEP, which you guys are, and just like with this SOC too, like this doesn't mean that you guys agree that this is the best way.Right. You might do things that are even more strict. You might do things that are even more innovative on top of that. But what you've said is there is a, uh, a large enough body of people in advertising and data and security that have agreed that these protocols are now a bare minimum that make it that much easier to transact.We are starting to see these companies, even in podcasting have security leads, right? And these are the things, especially with publicly traded companies. Absolutely required. Megaphone have weakened SOC two compliant when they were working with Spotify before the acquisition. And I think ESPN required that at Spotify require that that's very important stuff.So in a world where I am out here, screaming, don't give anybody your data, unless you signed paperwork. What SOC two says is here's the bare minimum you can expect from them. So that you're going to have to know from partner to partner, to partner, and here's a bar to hold them to. And I really liked that.I even from an individual. To a massive corporation. When somebody sends you something about a password breach right now, right? No, there's no, nobody has to conform to how that's handled. Everybody can handle it differently. And it sucks. SOC two basically says like here's all of the protocols for every single thing that could happen and how we would handle it.And I like it, but yeah. Thank you. I derail that's to get back to the beginning of, we were talking a little bit about library, put, described librarian, state of augment, and I think what's really. And, and something I want to highlight for people is that there's a difference between the data source and the pipes.Yep. Nielsen is, is both right Nielsen as a data source, they have their own data and their pipes, how they connect their own data to a platform. They also aggregate other people's data in there. Adobe is just a data source for most advertising partners. They do have some pipes, but very limited. And you get it.Some other ways. Library amp is purely pipe. Hm. And what's really cool about that is they have an infrastructure built on matching data between consenting partners. Now we understand that the industry is rife with bad actors. Every industry is so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on here other than the fact that live ramp vets, their partners on all sides to make sure that they have the consent required to do what they need to do.So that means that by working with live ramp or charitable and librarian working together, just like everybody else, there is a clear line. Between do you have the right to augment that or not? And then the data coming in that you augment it with that data is only in that database. If those terms are met at the end of the day, lawyers can figure out what is, and isn't right.We're not here to talk about that. We're here to say that businesses that are publicly, actively out there doing this stuff have agreed on bare minimum terms and provide some really cool features. And that librarian relationship has allowed you guys to start with what's the data partner that you're starting with.Karo: So for demographic data Epsilon. Uh, so yeah, so Epsilon is a demographic data provider. The way I think about it is, um, you know, we always get asked the question like Nielsen and Epsilon are Experian, right? So. You know, this isn't survey based demographic information. What Epsilon does is from credit checks to a reward card points, right.They're mapping all this data to essentially household IP address. So there's really no survey involved. Right. It's all based off the household IPS. So our relationship is well, uh, they are a certified librarian partner as well. Right. And exactly what you said as are we. And so what we're able to do, which is super neat, right?Is we're able to map the IP address, right. To a live ramp identity. Right. And then Epsilon is able to map a, their household IP to a live ramp identifier. Right. Essentially, we're just visualizing the combination of both our databases. Right. So it's been awesome, especially for me who was. You know, doing marketing for a publisher where I have to send out the quarterly survey.Right. Make sure the shows are doing a call to action. Right. You know, in my head, this is no longer the case and exactly what you're noting Wilbur earlier. The beautiful thing is it's like, you know, it's a hundred dollars a month, you know, for like to get a bare minimum. So it's like, if you are curious, right.Certainly, uh, I mean, I, I suppose in this case, I'm on record, but you could say sign up for a month and then cancel if you want. Right. Just to kind of just. Who exactly is listening demographic wise. Right. And I think that's so incredibly powerful that, you know, anyone could kind of pick that up. Right. And it's the same information that, you know, an iHeart or a Wondery et cetera, access to.Yeah. Right.Bryan: Two things there. So charitable has a demographic feature, which is an add on, because if you have the prefixed pickup, Yep. Right. And you're tracking that then they can layer additional data on here. Right? I truly believe that it is in most publishers, best interests, absolutely review the legal.And I think that if you ever have any questions about it, you're going to reach out to charter book. Caro's probably going to be the person to respond back to you on it, which is very cool. Dig through this stuff. Ask questions, make sure that if it's your goal, but get that pixel on there because everything is additive.The longer they're able to track these things and monitor things, the more you can see historical growth. One of the cool things that they've offered in is a big thing that I'm going to be talking about in the future, in the newsletter. And then going to have another episode about is I really think that we're, we're so caught up in this world of targeting an individual in real time.And what we miss is the fact that like, let's say best case scenario, 50% of all downloads downloads happen in a house. Yep. That means that a best case, 50% of the total pool can be matched. It is not a hundred percent match from household to that. So let's say that 60% can be matched there. So now we're looking at, I did Batman.Let's just call it 50 because I'm terrible. Matt, we're talking 25% of our total pool is not to serve a campaign against that IP in real time. However, If you look at the downloads consistently over a three-month period, 30, 60, 90 day period, and you can see all of the addressable households, all the demographic information on there, you can create a shell sell sheet.You can say your show indexes to this age range. You can say your show indexes to this education, to male versus female, to, um, uh, all these cool things. And what I really think that is neat is that by picking library, You've chosen to start with Epsilon. But somebody comes around and it's just like, well, Epsilon's crap.Here's how I can prove it. Our data is 10 times better. You can switch it out overnight, which I just wrote that article about like, don't build everything, right? Like you guys shoot on a device graph partner. You super could collect all this, but at the end of the day, like you have that flexibility to do that.And live ramp is motivated to add as many partners as possible to this, that map. So by being connected to these pipes, You have the ability to replace and you have the ability to add to this feature constantly. And Kara said that the, uh, the price is a hundred dollars a month. Um, testing it out for a project right now.It's really neat. I think it's really cool. And what I like about the analytics side of this. Is that it, again, it doesn't have to be for attribution. It doesn't have to be for like ad serving. It can simply be augmentation of who your audience is on an aggregate level, which allows you to print out that one sheet, make that for an email, a PowerPoint presentation and say, this is who my audience is.This is yes. We fit all of the key demographics that say the person is ideal to buy a truck, you know? And then. Is way more powerful than only targeting the download requests for the households of people who do want to buy a truck based on the data.Karo: I love how you keep touching on, uh, on, you know, the, the sales sheet, right?Providing more information to the publisher to close the deal. Right. And that was very much at the forefront when saying, you know what we could. Yes, we could easily give this suggests our enterprise tier. Right. But that's insane. Right? Like everybody, everybody has a business here in this industry. And if they'd like to explore it right, they could present a little bit more than just the 30 day count.Right. It's like, Hey, I know. This is exactly why you should buy our show. Right? We do skew towards that audience that you're looking for. Right. Or you could say we don't skew towards that audience. However, it's a good idea if he did talk to them. Right. So however you want to spend it totally up to you.Nonetheless, you have that information to like, make an argument. Right? And I, again, like my job prior to one day, I was at Oxford road where I buy. Podcasts ads for like blue apron and ZipRecruiter. And that was in 2014 and like to think, oh, hi, now I know. I know. And to think, you know, back then there was no such thing as IBV too, right.There's none of that. So to think that immediate buyer today could just go to any publisher that they find on the apple podcast charts that might or might not fit their target and literally ask them, you know, what, who is listening, right? What's the demographic profile behind your listenership? And it be valid is just mind-boggling, you know,Bryan: it's like, goodness, that research information is so valuable for ads, but for content, if I know the demographic makeup of my audience, Like I can make decisions about what content to add on there.And the biggest thing that I really want to emphasize to people is that like, absolutely there are super amazing, really good solutions out there to just give the keys, to fill ads into your platform and there'll be successful. Right? Right. It might not be the $50 CPMs that you dream of. It might not be the a hundred percent fail rate, but that's, that's what it is.The further you get away from being hands-on with it, the less you control more pieces of pie you give up. And the more it has to be homogenized. But if you have that info, if you know exactly how all of this works, right? I think you can tell a story because your podcast is a story Sounds Profitable. It might be an interview show where I talk about expanding on the article.But what I'm trying to do is tell you the listener to the story. Um, How you can be an expert in this, how that, like I'm a college dropout who bumbled his way through this. I've caused more damage than I've earned in my career financially. And you just, you learn these things and you grow. And that's the story I want to tell you, you, this is accessible to you.You can learn from this, you can grow from it at any stage in your career from CEO to entry-level and you can apply it. So if I look at that demographic, Whether it's for improving my podcast or selling ads, I'm selling, I'm pushing, I'm promoting, I'm encouraging people to interact with it and having more data to tell my story to back it up or to make me rethink my story.That's critical. And I think. It's a blended approach. The pixel based solution is not the only solution. I think surveys are really valuable too, but I'll tell you it's very easy. Like Kara said to put that pixel live in six months into the project, be like cool. A hundred bucks. Awesome. Got the sales sheet.I'll be back next quarter, you know, tons of value keeping it live, but like, even if you just try it. What does it change in how you perceive your show and how you perceive who you're talking to, how you represent your show to the people you're talkingto.Karo: I love how you keep touching on, you know, the story.And one thing we always talk about internally, super cheesy, and I think it's, it's Bob Pittman who said it, right? The, uh, the, the magic behind your numbers, right? So it's like the story behind your numbers and for such a long time, the space, all we really had were numbers and. Not great ones at that. Right now we're entering into the space where companies like us, right.We're able to provide you that much more, the retention metrics, we just like launch, right. Like you could actually see. Right. And understand who sticks around for how long, right. Over how many episodes. Right. And it's like that in itself is like, okay, cool. You know, we know this particular episode drove this many new devices or new downloads.Right. And this particular topic actually kind of had them stick around for much longer than this other topic. Yeah. And so to be able to craft that story, right. Really in our minds, right. It's going to push your content even further. Right. And even kind of from obviously the monetization point of view, right.I'm kind of telling the advertiser who exactly is listening. Surely we hope, right. We'll get you additional dollars. On the counter of that, you know, one beautiful example. I keep thinking about, um, as, as you were talking and so we work with a local public radio station, right. And they had this huge drive to create a series that touches and speaks to the Hispanic, Latino community.Right. And they really didn't know if it was working or not. Right. And then, you know, once we kind of showed them, you know, the data behind it, It matched exactly what they thought. Right? So it's like, they had a suspicion, right. As they were making the content, but they had no hard data that they're actually talking about audience and the demographic data that we're providing them, told them exactly what they thought was happening.But now they have that. Right. So now they're printing the thing out. Right. And then going to everybody and saying, see, look, this is exactly what we need. What's happening as well. They're going to the content team and saying, Hey, great job. Right. Keep doing what you're doing because clearly you're, you're hitting, you know, the audience we need you to hit.So I think again, providing that story behind the numbers right, is, is really something we always think about here at chartable and. You know, it's so quirky, this dumb little piece of code on the RSS feed, right? Like who'd a thunk it. Right. But we're really trying to see where we go. And I think partnerships like live ramp and Epsilon, and the fact that exactly what you said, we could switch in a moment's notice or add more to it.Right. And that's exactly where we're at. So we're very much in the state of collection phase with like all our publisher partners of like, what exactly do you want to say? Right. Cause we have the ability to just like plug it in. Right, right. It's one thing to visualize it. That's going to be like, oh my goodness, that's a headache in itself.But just getting that initial data right. And kind of like exporting it and presenting it to our partners to see what makes sense has been, has been really cool to see the annoying thing there. I must admit is everybody wants everything and no one could tell you the exact specific thing that they want.So it's been interesting trying to like find through lines in the stories that people are trying to tell us. Yeah.Bryan: That's the hard part. I think data. Can tell any story you want. Sure. I've watched smart people use data to talk to yourself about it like that and success to the next one. And I don't think that's a bad thing because I think that if you're just like, Hey, here's what we learned and here's why we need to do it again.Right. Here's that content fell flat, but here's what we can gleam from where we should improve on it and not throw it away. Right? Yep. There's so many different ways to spin it. And this is, this is kind of where I want to leave things off for everybody here. Your hosting provider gets all the same. And I think that there are so many solutions out there that do so many different things, but to me, a prefixed partner or someone that's receiving your data through like a data dump, like what Triton does prefix partners in these data partners, focusing on the download data specifically are people that you want to spend time with and learn from.There are people that you want to consume their content from. And there are people that you want to sign up for their free product, knowing that you can always upgrade to them because. No hosting provider can dedicate the same amount of time to dig through IP address user agent and episode in the combination in way that previous partners like charitable can.And the reason for that is because they have so many other things on their plate, and it's hard to divide attention even when you're a massive company. So if you want to learn more about analytics, work with an analytics company, do not try and get everything from one source, acknowledge that there are differences between.Try and just spend time digging into it and pick which one speaks to you, whether it's through the customer service, which kero is honestly industry known for, for their amazing marketing write-up materials, which I think that. You know, you have to read what these people point out and present their story from the data that they're getting from.All of you guys is important. Do you want to be associated with them? And then you have to figure out if you can actually tell the story with it. And sometimes the answer is you can't right now, but keep collecting. Keep getting it, keep looking at it and keep improving. Because to me, that's the biggest thing, because you might be starting a new podcast today.You might be NPR doing it for forever. There's always more you can learn. And there's always more you can think about and the people that are going to help you get there are the ones laser focused on doing more with less, which is prefixed. Nailed it, it was so great Ave on here. I'm really excited, truly bummed that I'm not going to be at podcast movement with you.The fun of perfectly lining up having kid to, uh, right before it and kids.Karo: Congratulations.I'mBryan: very excited, uh, to interact with you more on this stuff and you and chartable please keep putting out such a meat. Content and being open to talk to people of allKaro: levels. Of course. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Thank you to everyone who's, uh, dealing with my monotone voice or has dealt with it for the last 30 something minutes.So, you know, appreciate your platform and can forward to, uh, Hopefully getting on this platform a little bit more. So I thank you so much for all the support and thank you everyone out there for listening. ThanksBryan: and stick around for some special bonus content. At the end of the episode, I've teamed up with Evo Terra to give you a minute long strategic thought that is guaranteed to shift your perspective on the present and future of podcast. As we all work to make podcasting better. Thanks to Karo for coming on, to discuss my article podcast, prefix analytics.Explain if you liked what you heard and want to connect, you can find me Brian Barletta on LinkedIn, way less formally on Twitter as high five RPG. And of course you can email email@example.com spelled. The most important part about Sounds Profitable is providing you with more resources and making sure that I can answer your questions.So check out the link to YAPA in the episode description and leave me a message. And with your permission, I'll answer it live on the, the Sounds Profitable podcasts and all the cool ad tech, bells and whistles you've experienced, where thanks to our hosts and sponsor wish got everything you need. Since the conversation ended was uniquely created to target you using their dynamic ad insertion features.If any of the call-outs were wrong, let us know this sounds proper podcast would not be possible without the help and support of Evo, Tara, James Cridland, and Ian Powell. Thank you all for your help and support. .