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Buzzcast is a roundtable discussion about podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout. We'll cover current events and news, podcast strategy, tools we are using, and dip into the Customer Support mailbag to test our podcasting knowledge. If you want to stay up-to-date on what's working in podcasting, Buzzcast is the show for you.

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Branded Podcasts and Getting Featured in Apple with Fatima Zaidi [transcript]


Fatima Zaidi, founder of Quill Podcasting, shares why brands are creating podcasts to connect with customers, the power of building a personal brand as a podcast, and a little known strategy for getting your podcast listed in Apple's New & Noteworthy section.

Fill out the Apple Podcasts Promotion Request form for a chance to be featured in New & Noteworthy.

Check out Quill Podcasting and follow Fatima on Twitter.

If you are part of a company looking to create a branded podcast, check out the Listen In Conference coming in 2022.

Review Buzzcast in Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think of the show.

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-08-20  1h2m
 
 
00:00  Fatima
contests are a really
00:00
great way of spiking Apple
00:02
podcast reviews. And then if
00:02
you're doing a contest
00:05
simultaneously to that you
00:05
should be filling out Apple's
00:07
placement form, so that they can
00:07
catch whiff of the fact that
00:10
your contest is really spiking
00:10
your reviews and your downloads,
00:14
which means if they pick you up
00:14
for their new and noteworthy
00:16
section, that's a whole other,
00:16
you know, ballgame of visibility
00:20
that you haven't even initially
00:20
considered.
00:29  Alban
Hey, everybody, I
00:29
recently had the opportunity to
00:31
sit down with Fatimah zedi.
00:31
Fatimah is the co founder and
00:35
CEO of quill, quill is a
00:35
marketplace for podcasters. And
00:39
anybody just freelancing in the
00:39
podcasting industry in case you
00:42
need someone to help improve
00:42
your show. They also do branded
00:47
podcast, their full service
00:47
production company to help
00:51
brands create really great
00:51
podcasts, to showcase their
00:55
stories and connect with their
00:55
potential and current customers.
01:00
So it's a really interesting
01:00
conversation about brands, and
01:04
why you should be starting a
01:04
podcast why brain should be
01:07
looking at podcasts. At the end,
01:07
we started talking about a lot
01:10
of podcasts growth tips, quill
01:10
has a really good method for
01:14
growing podcasts and how to
01:14
consistently get listed in Apple
01:19
podcasts new and noteworthy. And
01:19
then we wrap up at the end with
01:23
a talk about personal brands, if
01:23
you are an indie podcaster. How
01:27
do you know whether or not you
01:27
should be building a personal
01:30
brand? What things should you be
01:30
doing? And what are the values
01:33
there? So it was a really
01:33
interesting conversation. I
01:36
learned a lot, and I hope you do
01:36
too. Let's get to it. Fatimah,
01:40
thank you so much for being
01:40
here.
01:41  Fatima
Thank you for having me.
01:41
It's pleasure. As always.
01:45  Alban
It's my pleasure. Let me
01:45
start off by asking you, how did
01:48
you get into podcasting? What
01:48
brought you to our little corner
01:51
of the internet?
01:52  Fatima
Well, I think it's the
01:52
corner that everyone was
01:54
noticing. But you know, back in
01:54
2014, when Sarah caning launched
01:58
cereal, I think it I remember my
01:58
best friend from Oman, calling
02:02
me up and saying, you know, fat,
02:02
there's this new murder mystery,
02:07
and it's about this Pakistani
02:07
guy. And of course, I've
02:09
Pakistani roots. And she's like
02:09
this, this, this teenage boy has
02:13
been convicted of murdering his
02:13
his girlfriend. And I think this
02:17
is right up your alley. But it's
02:17
in a weird format. It's
02:20
something called a podcast,
02:20
which is like somewhat of an
02:23
audio book. And and I had no
02:23
idea what she was talking about.
02:27
But being the murder mystery
02:27
connoisseur that I am I, you
02:31
know, took a look. And the rest
02:31
is history. I mean, cereal after
02:34
that became a household name. It
02:34
made podcasting, a household
02:38
name. And at the time, I was
02:38
running a marketing agency for a
02:42
fortune 500 companies, we did
02:42
marketing and PR and I was
02:45
looking at new ways to create
02:45
content to reach new audiences.
02:49
And that was back before
02:49
podcasting was, you know,
02:53
mainstream. So that's when I
02:53
became a consumer and started
02:56
exploring it as an opportunity
02:56
for some of our clients.
03:00  Alban
That's awesome. I
03:00
remember when really, it was
03:03
that cereal moment that's
03:03
actually very close to when I
03:06
left law to join the world of
03:06
podcasting, podcasting jumped
03:11
from something under 100,000
03:11
podcasts, like 60,000 in the
03:15
world to now close to 2 million,
03:15
and the landscape has changed
03:20
completely. With all that
03:20
change. What prompted you to
03:26
think that this is like
03:26
something that's going to
03:28
continue to go that you wanted
03:28
to invest in even more,
03:31  Fatima
you know, it's so
03:31
interesting, because when I was
03:32
launching quill, so I decided to
03:32
sell the last agency and
03:36
productize Our services are
03:36
really specialize in podcasting.
03:40
And everybody told me that I was
03:40
absolutely nuts, because, you
03:43
know, it was a very niche
03:43
industry. I went from my market
03:47
size being every company who
03:47
needed marketing to specifically
03:51
companies who were exploring
03:51
podcasting, which was a very new
03:53
medium. But the way that I
03:53
looked at it was there, the
03:58
industry for agencies is very
03:58
saturated. But there's not a lot
04:01
of podcasting agencies that
04:01
actually know what they're
04:04
doing. Folks who not only can
04:04
create really good content, but
04:07
also understand audience growth,
04:07
understand analytics, understand
04:12
the ins and outs of reaching the
04:12
right audiences. And so, from
04:16
from filling a market gap, that
04:16
was kind of a no brainer for me,
04:20
but I would say that the thing
04:20
that I, you know, really got to
04:23
me was the exponential growth
04:23
within the industry. Actually, I
04:26
think we're almost at 4 million
04:26
podcasts. I was recently reading
04:30
on the pod news newsletter and
04:30
they said something in there
04:33
about we're almost at 4 million.
04:33
And I don't know if I'm like
04:37
quoting that inaccurately or
04:37
not, but I think we're almost
04:40
there or getting there. And I
04:40
think it's more so just the
04:43
growth like 4000 new shows
04:43
popping up every week. And last
04:47
year, this time we were at
04:47
900,000 active podcasts. So it's
04:52
especially further compounded in
04:52
the pandemic where it's
04:55
definitely not a fad and here to
04:55
stay.
04:58  Alban
Yeah, I know on the
04:58
Buzzsprout side We're about
05:01
tripled during the pandemic, as
05:01
far as our company size. And
05:05
there's just it was pretty much
05:05
spurred by people who are really
05:09
interested in starting new
05:09
podcasts, they were all of a
05:14
sudden had a lot of time at home
05:14
and figured out, hey, I've been
05:17
saying I want to start a podcast
05:17
for a long time. Or maybe
05:20
they're just feeling a little
05:20
bit disconnected from a lot of
05:24
their people they used to spend
05:24
time with and they went, hey,
05:26
let's start a podcast and
05:26
started leaning into this new
05:29
medium. Totally. So the way you
05:29
got into podcasting is you saw
05:34
this opportunity, and you
05:34
founded quill, what is quill?
05:37  Fatima
Yeah, so quill is a full
05:37
service podcast production and
05:40
marketing agency, which means
05:40
that we work with fortune 500
05:44
brands to create content, but
05:44
also market the shows, I would
05:47
say creating a good show is half
05:47
of the work. And the other half
05:50
of the battle is really reaching
05:50
the right audiences and making
05:55
sure that all of this great
05:55
content is being promoted. I
05:58
will say though, that we are
05:58
very tech enabled agencies. So
06:01
we have the marketplace, which
06:01
is for anyone who can't afford
06:04
agency pricing, you can go on
06:04
and hire podcasting experts. So
06:08
think of it as the Upwork or
06:08
Fiverr, of the podcasting world.
06:13
And then we actually just
06:13
launched a beta version of a new
06:17
audience growth tool that we're
06:17
also going to be using for
06:21
enterprise clients, and
06:21
essentially the product we
06:23
created for our agency clients,
06:23
but will soon be opening it up
06:27
to the mass market as well. So
06:29  Alban
and so you have both
06:29
sides, you have kind of that
06:32
full service. And you have also
06:32
the marketplace. That who is
06:36
that marketplace really geared
06:36
towards
06:38  Fatima
Yeah, so full service
06:38
agency is more towards brands
06:41
who want a team of folks around
06:41
them. And then the marketplace
06:44
is more for indie podcasters and
06:44
content creators who may have
06:47
limited budgets, but still want
06:47
to put out a really great show.
06:51
And essentially, what we've been
06:51
doing over the last couple of
06:53
years is we love being in the
06:53
service space and creating
06:57
shows, because that's where you
06:57
really learn the pain points of
07:00
the industry and what the
07:00
challenges are. And then based
07:02
on those challenges, we create
07:02
products to solve those pain
07:06
points.
07:06  Alban
So you really specialize
07:06
in this brands aspect. And I
07:10
know I've heard you speak, I've
07:10
listened a lot of podcasts with
07:13
you really like kind of
07:13
pinpointing the value
07:18
proposition for a brand to start
07:18
a podcast and really selling
07:22
that idea what why should a
07:22
brand actually start a podcast?
07:26  Fatima
Oh, my goodness, I could
07:26
go on and on about this. There's
07:29
so much content to share here.
07:29
But I would say the biggest
07:32
reason is that it is typically a
07:32
medium that is not available to
07:36
other advertisers. I can be
07:36
driving to work and listening to
07:41
a podcast, but I cannot be
07:41
watching a Netflix show. I can
07:44
be washing the dishes and
07:44
listening to a podcast but not,
07:49
you know, reading an article.
07:49
And I think that it's important
07:52
to understand that 94% of folks
07:52
who start a podcast end up
07:57
listening to the entire show,
07:57
whereas a 30 minute video only
08:01
has about a 12% completion rate.
08:01
And that disparity in numbers is
08:05
that typically, when you're
08:05
trying to reach educated,
08:08
millennial professionals, they
08:08
want to be productive, whatever
08:12
they're doing, they want to be
08:12
actively engaged in another
08:15
activity. And this is one of the
08:15
only mediums or being engaged in
08:18
another activity increases
08:18
engagement rather than heart
08:21
set. And so, you know, it's the
08:21
only advertising medium that is
08:25
available to folks that isn't
08:25
available to any other form of
08:28
marketing, whether that be
08:28
content written. And everyone
08:32
consumes content in a different
08:32
way. Some people prefer visual,
08:35
some people prefer audio. And so
08:35
you know, you really want to
08:38
make sure that you're reaching
08:38
all types of audiences. If it's
08:41
YouTube, it's Gen Z, if it's
08:41
podcasts, it's older
08:43
millennials, if it's, you know,
08:43
LinkedIn or Facebook, you're
08:47
typically looking at an older
08:47
generation, tick tock, you're
08:50
looking at Gen Z. So if you're,
08:50
you know, eliminating podcasting
08:54
from your marketing strategy,
08:54
it's a whole slew of people that
08:56
you're not thinking about people
08:56
like myself, who exclusively
09:00
consume content in the form of
09:00
audio,
09:02  Alban
we have definitely seen
09:02
that on the Buzzsprout side, the
09:04
same piece of content that we
09:04
may release as a blog post, a
09:07
podcast, and a YouTube video.
09:07
And I've shared these numbers
09:12
publicly, but I think it's
09:12
something like three and a half
09:15
minutes is our average blog read
09:15
time, four and a half, maybe is
09:18
our average view time on the
09:18
YouTube video, which is really
09:22
highly produced. And then if
09:22
someone starts the podcast,
09:26
we're on average, expecting them
09:26
to listen at 90 something
09:29
percent of that podcast, it's
09:29
like 40 minutes. And the amount
09:34
of effort that goes into each of
09:34
those mediums is entirely
09:38
different. And I think you
09:38
pinpointed it when you said it's
09:42
because podcasting is take
09:42
podcasting takes them to
09:46
account, you're doing something
09:46
else. podcast, he's not trying
09:49
to dominate your time, so
09:49
everyone should be if they're
09:53
not, you should think about it.
09:53
Go out and work out every day.
09:57
And when you're working out, pop
09:57
in a podcast listen Music like,
10:01
those are good times to do
10:01
something else. And I think
10:05
that's why we get so much better
10:05
engagement because we're doing
10:08
something else. And we're not
10:08
maybe is there a prototype
10:12
switch kind of like haphazardly
10:12
between content?
10:15  Fatima
Yeah, definitely. I
10:15
mean, it, we know, it's one of
10:18
the best ways to reach a global
10:18
audience, create an intimate
10:21
connection with your customers,
10:21
with your audience, your
10:24
listeners, and provide valuable
10:24
on demand content. And so we
10:28
always encourage anyone who's
10:28
creating a podcast, whether
10:31
you're a brand or an indie,
10:31
content creator, that there's a
10:34
lot of work that goes into
10:34
creating a good show. So you
10:37
should repurpose that content
10:37
into other formats. podcasting
10:40
is great for those who prefer
10:40
audio, and for those who like to
10:43
be actively engaged in another
10:43
activity, but you should still
10:47
be putting it out in the form of
10:47
a blog and YouTube and social
10:51
media clips, which is exactly
10:51
what you just said. And
10:54
repurposing that content means
10:54
that you can continue to reach
10:57
new audiences and new places.
10:57
And you know, you're really not
11:01
doubling up the work you're
11:01
doing is it's just a smarter
11:04
content strategy.
11:05  Alban
On other podcasts I've
11:05
heard you say, in the future
11:09
brands are either going to have
11:09
their own podcast, or they will
11:12
be advertising on somebody
11:12
else's. Why First off, like, why
11:17
do you think that that's the
11:17
future? What do you see that
11:19
leads us to that future?
11:21  Fatima
Yeah, so I think the
11:21
quote that you're referring to,
11:23
and I have been, you know,
11:23
infamously using this quite
11:26
often is that in the 1980s, we
11:26
had a phone number for our
11:30
business, in the 1990s. It was a
11:30
website in the 2000s. It was
11:33
social and and i think in the
11:33
next five to 10 years it's going
11:36
to be podcasting is going to be
11:36
our medium and refer a variety
11:41
of reasons. I think from an
11:41
engagement level, we're finding
11:44
that it's just a very intimate
11:44
sort of platform or medium where
11:49
the host becomes an influencer.
11:49
And you start to trust their
11:52
product recommendations and
11:52
their advice and their opinions.
11:55
I think that it's a very easy.
11:55
It's not an easy production
12:00
process. But it's a very easy
12:00
consumption process, like you
12:03
know, the way that you can get
12:03
access to a podcast. That way
12:06
you can distribute the way you
12:06
can listen to it, it's just at
12:09
the tip of your fingertips. And
12:09
more importantly, I think that
12:14
it's become a very accessible
12:14
medium these days, anyone with,
12:17
you know, you don't even need a
12:17
microphone or headset, you
12:19
essentially need your phone to
12:19
record content, not that I
12:22
recommend recording on a phone.
12:22
I'm all about the high high
12:26
quality production. But you
12:26
know, even if you wanted to
12:29
create, you know, content for
12:29
your friends and family, you
12:32
know, it's just so easy to put
12:32
together a podcast. It's readily
12:36
available to anyone who has an
12:36
internet connection that I think
12:40
that in 2007. If you were the
12:40
first person on Twitter,
12:43
tweeting like Kim Kardashian, by
12:43
default, you're an influencer
12:46
today. And I think the people
12:46
who are podcasting today in the
12:50
next five to 10 years are going
12:50
to be the influencers.
12:52  Alban
There was definitely a
12:52
moment where actually said first
12:55
conference I ever went to for
12:55
podcasting was in December 2014.
13:00
And I remember someone they're
13:00
telling me, well, I don't even
13:03
know if it makes sense, because
13:03
I already missed the boat. You
13:07
know, the whole wave of
13:07
podcasting is kind of crashed.
13:09
If I'd started two years ago,
13:09
I'd have a great show. But now
13:12
it's too late. And I think back
13:12
on that all the time, seven
13:16
years ago, and had you just
13:16
stuck with it, it doesn't matter
13:21
how bad that show had been in
13:21
the beginning. It's seven years
13:25
of work on it. He'd be, you
13:25
know, millions of downloads per
13:28
episode doing incredibly well
13:28
with his podcast, think
13:31  Fatima
of the SEO he would have
13:31
built over the last seven years
13:34
and the backlinks, he would have
13:34
gotten just to rank on Google
13:37
when people were searching for
13:37
similar content to his. Also, I
13:41
think that that's just such a
13:41
ridiculous statement, because
13:44
we're okay, we're between two to
13:44
4 million podcasts. I'm going to
13:47
after this podcast interview,
13:47
I'm going to double check to see
13:50
what that stat is. But let's say
13:50
we're at two to 4 million
13:53
podcasts. There's 60 plus
13:53
million YouTube channels,
13:57
there's 1.5 billion websites,
13:57
there's 500 hours of content
14:01
being uploaded every minute and
14:01
30 plus million 600 plus million
14:06
blogs and 30 plus million
14:06
YouTube channels. So podcasting
14:09
is very much at the beginning of
14:09
the hype cycle. And only 18% of
14:14
those podcasts are active. So
14:14
we're like not even we haven't
14:18
even scratched the surface of
14:18
content yet. So that person you
14:21
spoke to very misinformed.
14:24  Alban
Well, he was speaking at
14:24
a time before we had 100,000
14:27
shows. And so definitely, you
14:27
know, missed the opportunity.
14:32
And I hope that he maybe is
14:32
listening now and maybe he
14:36
actually has a podcast again.
14:36
It'd be fun to go back and find
14:40
that individual. So we're
14:40
thinking about brand starting a
14:43
podcast you kind of tell me a
14:43
bit about how podcasts are
14:46
getting continued to grow. What
14:46
is the specific reason though?
14:52
Why a brand should have their
14:52
own podcast I'm thinking of like
14:55
a Salesforce. Why does
14:55
Salesforce need a podcast? Why
14:59
for them Would it not make more
14:59
sense to say, hey, I've got my,
15:03
one of my marketing directors go
15:03
ahead and buy $4 million of
15:08
podcast ads across all the
15:08
shows. We don't have time to
15:12
create an their own internal
15:12
podcast where, what what am I
15:16
missing?
15:16  Fatima
Yeah. So it's really
15:16
interesting because I think day
15:19
to day we all walk around and
15:19
there's so many, you know,
15:22
behemoth brands that we know of
15:22
Amazon, Google, Facebook,
15:27
McDonald's, Slack, Salesforce,
15:27
but we don't know their brand
15:31
story. We have zero emotional
15:31
connections to them. And, and
15:34
this is a story that I share
15:34
with everybody. I our household,
15:38
our entire household are huge,
15:38
icecream consumers. And when we
15:42
used to go to the grocery store,
15:42
we were never exclusively loyal
15:45
to any particular brand. Until
15:45
we heard Jerry, Jerry and Tom, I
15:50
think it's Jerry Greenfield and
15:50
Tom from Ben and Jerry's on how
15:53
I built this how I built this
15:53
episode with guy Roz. And after
15:58
that episode, I felt such a
15:58
profound connection to their
16:01
brand, their brand story, their
16:01
mission, vision and values that
16:04
we exclusively now buy Ben and
16:04
Jerry's. I don't think it's the
16:08
best ice cream product on the
16:08
market. I think that Hagen does.
16:12
And there's so many other other
16:12
flavors and brands that are
16:16
probably more superior than Ben
16:16
and Jerry's, but I just love
16:20
their companies so much. And
16:20
since then, I've been following
16:24
them through so many podcast
16:24
episodes, and you know, their
16:28
Black Lives Matter movement
16:28
statement that they put out. And
16:30
since then I just have developed
16:30
an attachment to their brand in
16:34
a way that goes so beyond
16:34
product consumption. And that's
16:37
what I find podcasting can do
16:37
for your brand, especially if
16:40
you're a b2c. So a b2c company
16:40
can come on, and tell their
16:44
brand stories talk about, you
16:44
know, what they're doing behind
16:47
the scenes, and you're no longer
16:47
just a company, you know, it's
16:50
very much humanizing, what
16:50
you're doing behind the scenes
16:53
that your customers don't get to
16:53
see. But if you're a b2b
16:56
company, there has been studies
16:56
shown and actually quill
16:59
internally has been tracking
16:59
this with our b2b podcasting
17:02
clients that show anyone who is
17:02
doing a podcast who makes a list
17:07
of prospective clients that they
17:07
want to close contracts with, or
17:10
vendors or partnerships with
17:10
about 60 to 70% of those folks
17:15
that they have come on their
17:15
show will end up at some point
17:18
within the next six months
17:18
closing into a larger contract.
17:21
So it's not just a marketing
17:21
strategy. It's a really powerful
17:25
sales tool, one hour in front of
17:25
somebody, what better way to
17:28
build a relationship with
17:28
someone than having them on your
17:31
show. So b2b, I would say great
17:31
sales strategy, b2c great brand
17:35
awareness tool.
17:37  Alban
I actually recently ran
17:37
across a story that I think it
17:40
was during the civil rights era
17:40
that there were the CEO of Coca
17:45
Cola said that he wanted to have
17:45
like, an interracial dinner, and
17:51
was getting a lot of pushback
17:51
from like civic leaders in
17:53
Atlanta. And he said, that's
17:53
fine. I'm going to move the
17:56
entire company out of Atlanta
17:56
unless we sell out and it's sold
17:59
out within like, two hours or
17:59
something. And I was like, it's
18:03
just like this little anecdote
18:03
that I heard, it probably was
18:06
very well known 50 years ago,
18:06
but I'd never heard it. And I
18:11
already had high brand affinity
18:11
for Coke, but I heard it and I
18:13
was like, Man, that's a really
18:13
cool story. I like feel, uh, you
18:19
know, I've never even thought
18:19
about who's the CEO of Coca Cola
18:22
until that moment. And I think
18:22
we consistently it's why people
18:29
are in love with Tesla, that
18:29
they have some they've actually
18:33
built a connection in some way
18:33
to Ilan Musk, or maybe for a lot
18:38
of people a Steve Jobs and Apple
18:38
computers, like learning the
18:41
stories of the individuals. And
18:41
just the brand story is really
18:46
powerful for totally consumers
18:46
to build a certain a totally
18:50
different level of connection.
18:52  Fatima
Absolutely. I mean,
18:52
Sephora, their podcast lips
18:55
stories, where they profile
18:55
female pioneers, and each
18:58
lipstick brand is named after a
18:58
different powerhouse. I mean,
19:02
like, what a great way to bring
19:02
different diverse perspectives
19:04
to the table. And I'm sure that
19:04
their podcast, I mean, they
19:08
haven't released sales stats,
19:08
but I'm sure that they've had
19:11
really high conversion rates
19:11
from a product perspective. And
19:13
then, you know, there's brands
19:13
that I have never given second
19:16
thought to General Electric
19:16
being the perfect one, when they
19:19
release the message, the podcast
19:19
I, and I thought it was an
19:23
interesting concept, you know,
19:23
solving Extra Terrestrial
19:26
messages using General Electric
19:26
products. It's so you know,
19:30
kooky and quirky, I was like,
19:30
that's so interesting. And it
19:33
really put their brand on the
19:33
map. And that's not to say
19:36
nobody knows what General
19:36
Electric is, of course, we all
19:38
know it's a household name. But
19:38
do we really know what they do?
19:42
Do we really care? Now we care
19:42
because we've listened to their
19:45
podcast, and now that
19:45
relationship is so much more
19:48
intimate. So, I mean, you know,
19:48
there's tons of studies I
19:52
recently wrote an article,
19:52
quoting some BBC stats that
19:56
actually show you specifically
19:56
the impact that it has on your
19:59
life. Brown unfavorability
19:59
purchasing intent brand
20:02
awareness up like, you know,
20:02
uplift and purchasing intent and
20:06
really like specific metrics on
20:06
on brands, bottom lines, but I
20:11
would say you know, all of that
20:11
is secondary, like, of course,
20:13
sales is always a priority. But
20:13
first and foremost, what you're
20:16
trying to do is stay top of mind
20:16
with with people who are seeking
20:20
out your content.
20:21  Alban
That's really
20:21
interesting. I didn't prep this
20:24
question. So feel free to dodge
20:24
it if you'd like. That's, so
20:30
that's a for a podcast, I'd
20:30
never heard of it. I think
20:33
that's a really interesting way
20:33
for them to highlight their
20:36
product, and to also connect to
20:36
their audience in a meaningful
20:40
way. Are there other brands that
20:40
you see doing interesting
20:44
podcasts? And could you kind of
20:44
tell the stories behind them?
20:47  Fatima
Yeah, absolutely. So I
20:47
am, I listened to 10 podcasts a
20:51
week. And I would say five of
20:51
them are usually branded
20:53
podcasts. So I tried to
20:53
diversify content, from you
20:57
know, the The New York Times
20:57
that gimlets the wonders of the
20:59
world with like smaller indie
20:59
shows, and then also branded
21:03
shows, there's a bunch of
21:03
podcasts that I highly recommend
21:07
if for those tuning in are
21:07
looking for recommendations.
21:10
slack has two podcasts. One is
21:10
called slack variety pack, it's
21:15
an older one. And then the new
21:15
one is work in progress. And I
21:18
love both of those shows,
21:18
because it aligns so well with
21:21
their brand messaging and
21:21
positioning their entire product
21:25
and their entire business
21:25
mission is to help teams work
21:28
better together. That's why
21:28
slack was produced. And their
21:31
entire podcast is about
21:31
profiling business stories where
21:34
teams have worked together to
21:34
solve problems. So I love that
21:38
one.
21:38  Alban
One thing I've noticed is
21:38
so I've seen brands do this. On
21:42
Buzzsprout. We had a customer
21:42
who I forget how he initially
21:47
connected but he was doing a
21:47
podcast about setting up call
21:52
centers. And his actual job was
21:52
setting up call centers. He
21:57
would people would outsource it
21:57
to him, he set up their call
21:59
center, once they hit a certain
21:59
level, they needed to have a
22:02
large call center, he would set
22:02
it up. And he started just
22:05
talking about the process.
22:05
Here's the KPIs you should be
22:08
using. Here's how you hire here
22:08
are the red flags you have with
22:11
managers. Here's the equipment,
22:11
just everything in a podcast.
22:16
And what he realized was, even
22:16
though he was only getting I
22:19
think around 150 downloads per
22:19
episode, the people he was
22:23
constantly in communication with
22:23
obviously one way were the
22:29
decision makers in his industry,
22:29
because they were actively
22:32
looking to find, Alright, we're
22:32
doing this call center thing.
22:36
What's the best equipment? Oh,
22:36
here's a podcast. And here's one
22:40
talking about it. And they
22:40
started listening. He said,
22:43
eventually, they would start
22:43
reaching out being like, Hey,
22:46
this is so much harder than we
22:46
thought. would you would you
22:50
want to come on and help us?
22:50
Yes, this is my whole business.
22:54  Fatima
That's amazing. I mean,
22:54
I'm telling you, it's like the
22:56
best sales tool ever. And
22:56
actually, the more niche your
22:58
podcast, the more engaged your
22:58
audience. I mean, we add so
23:02
funny, we have a client who has
23:02
an open banking podcast, and who
23:08
knew that there was literally a
23:08
cult like following for open
23:11
banking content around what is
23:11
open banking. So this this
23:15
client of mine, so the podcast
23:15
is called Mr. Open banking, and
23:18
it's under our client axway. In
23:18
the US, they're based out of
23:21
Phoenix. They have two podcasts
23:21
have one which is business
23:24
stories. It's called transform
23:24
it forward. And then al Sivan,
23:28
who is the host of Mr. Open
23:28
banking, he is an open banking
23:31
expert, which is cross border
23:31
banking. Which Yeah, no two
23:35
people like you. And I would be
23:35
like, okay, I don't know if I
23:38
would tune into an open banking
23:38
podcast in my spare time. But
23:41
no, there is a huge audience for
23:41
open banking content. And it's
23:46
one of the most popular shows in
23:46
our roster. And it actually
23:49
makes sense, because it's such a
23:49
niche topic. And there's
23:52
probably not a lot of content on
23:52
open banking. So he, like your
23:56
friend is reaching a lot of
23:56
those, you know, executives,
24:00
decision makers, open banking,
24:00
and he's constantly getting
24:03
poached, because he is creating
24:03
content that is just a very
24:07
specific topic that not a lot of
24:07
people are. And I would like to
24:10
tell our clients, you need to
24:10
fall under one of the three
24:12
categories when creating shows
24:12
the best, the first, the best or
24:17
different. If you're one of
24:17
those three categories, you're
24:19
gonna have a really good show.
24:21  Alban
Yeah, I always talk to
24:21
people about, you really want to
24:24
be the best in your niche. And
24:24
you can define that as narrowly
24:28
as you want. And if you want to
24:28
be the best interview show,
24:32
well, now you're going up
24:32
against Terry Gross, and Ira
24:37
Glass and Joe Rogan and like all
24:37
these big names, well, you're
24:42
gonna it's gonna be hard and
24:42
then if you start narrowing it,
24:45
you can get down to this very,
24:45
very small niche. And that can
24:50
feel limiting as a content
24:50
creator cuz you're like, oh, are
24:54
there really people who want to
24:54
listen to my open banking
24:56
podcast or a podcast about
24:56
setting up call centers? Or
25:01
whatever you do the podcast or
25:01
Dungeons and Dragons, whatever
25:05
your podcast may be about. But
25:05
the thing that you gain when you
25:10
niche down is, you make it easy
25:10
for your listeners to find you
25:15
and know within a minute, this
25:15
is who I want to listen to. So
25:19
yeah, I'll give an example. One
25:19
of my college roommates was
25:23
really into weather, and he
25:23
would chase tornadoes and loved
25:27
hurricanes. And, you know, he
25:27
was the only one that I ever
25:32
knew who is like that. And that
25:32
was like, I was like, okay,
25:36
that's when they kind of you are
25:36
into, while there's a whole
25:38
group of people. And eventually,
25:38
he met two other people who are
25:43
really into it. Now his job is
25:43
he films all these weather
25:47
events and sells the footage
25:47
like Netflix and new stations.
25:51
But he started a podcast called
25:51
tornado trackers. And it does
25:55
exceptionally well, because he's
25:55
not unique. He was unique in the
26:01
small college environment that
26:01
we were in. But he's not unique
26:04
when you reach a worldwide
26:04
audience of people who are like,
26:07
Oh, I'm really into weather. And
26:07
then when he put that podcast,
26:11
I'm kind of flew this flag. And
26:11
all of a sudden, people were
26:14
like, Well, yeah, that's what
26:14
I've been looking for my whole
26:17
life. And if there's anyone who
26:17
knew, like, my cousin's really
26:22
into weather, and they heard
26:22
about his podcast, they go and
26:25
they run to the cousin, they go,
26:25
Hey, you gotta listen, this
26:27
podcast, it's actually for you.
26:27
Were these really big shows. I
26:32
rarely listened to though I love
26:32
it This American Life and think,
26:36
Oh, my gosh, this is for my Dad,
26:36
I've got to go tell my dad, this
26:38
is the episode for you, or my
26:38
cousin. But if there was, you
26:42
know, when people have a
26:42
specific interest, it's very
26:45
easy to connect them to a
26:45
specific show.
26:48  Fatima
Oh, totally. And it's an
26:48
it's interesting, because when
26:53
clients come to us, and they
26:53
say, we want to do an interview,
26:56
or like an interview style
26:56
Podcast, where we're
26:58
interviewing, you know, business
26:58
leaders, and I'm like, Okay,
27:01
great. So you want to compete
27:01
with the guy arises of the
27:03
world, like, there's already a
27:03
how I built this. This is what I
27:07
love about eBay's podcast, the
27:07
message, they actually they
27:11
wanted to do the same thing.
27:11
They wanted to interview
27:13
business leaders, but they
27:13
actually decided to profile the
27:16
business failures. And actually,
27:16
the only podcast out there that
27:20
I think actually does that, like
27:20
all of these shows out there
27:23
that will interview success
27:23
stories, but no one actually
27:26
focuses on like, the ones that
27:26
don't make it, and why they
27:29
don't make it and like, you
27:29
know, I was really blown away
27:33
when I listen to their podcast,
27:33
I think they may need some help
27:36
in the production department.
27:36
But as like a concept, it was
27:39
like, Wow, you've really nailed
27:39
figuring out a niche that nobody
27:42
else has sort of monopolized yet
27:42
as a brand to which is
27:45
impressive.
27:46  Alban
eBay, if you're
27:46
listening, check out quill, they
27:50
could definitely help you at
27:50
that production side. Alright,
27:53
so here's something that I
27:53
thought about, as I've
27:57
experienced more branded shows,
27:57
and like you said, people
28:03
started getting their phone
28:03
number, then their website, then
28:05
their social media. Well, phone
28:05
numbers are basically fungible,
28:10
everybody gets a phone number,
28:10
they're all just as good as any
28:13
other phone numbers. But then
28:13
when it gets to a website, and
28:16
social, a, just getting a
28:16
website up, I don't see almost
28:21
any value in that unless you're
28:21
actually putting some effort
28:24
into it, you're really engaging
28:24
your audience. And then in
28:26
social, it even gets, the stakes
28:26
are even higher, where if you
28:31
have like a dead social account,
28:31
okay. But if you actually
28:35
actively, uh, you're not
28:35
engaging your audience, or maybe
28:38
you're even offending your
28:38
audience, you really need to be
28:43
brand appropriate. And sometimes
28:43
just kind of just doing it
28:48
because you have to do it
28:48
doesn't really get you anything.
28:51
So my question is, how does a
28:51
brand approach a podcast in a
28:56
way to say, we want to be brand
28:56
safe, we want to be on point, we
29:01
want the production to match the
29:01
brand that we're building. We
29:05
may be incredible, and shoes,
29:05
but we're not incredible in
29:07
audio? How do they do all that?
29:10  Fatima
That's a really good
29:10
question. It's, it's
29:12
interesting, because it's really
29:12
finding that balance between
29:15
understanding that, you know,
29:15
people connect with you, based
29:18
on your personal stories, not
29:18
carefully crafted tweets or
29:22
scripts. And so you really want
29:22
to make sure that there's an
29:26
authenticity component to the
29:26
content that you're putting out.
29:29
And, you know, it's always
29:29
really difficult to sort of find
29:32
that bridge when it is a brand
29:32
because there's so much at
29:35
least, you know, red tape on
29:35
what you can and can't say. I
29:39
was reminded of like, when you
29:39
brought that question up, it
29:42
reminded me of the Justine Sacco
29:42
story. Do you remember that
29:44
whole scandal with I don't think
29:44
so. Justine Sacco was a PR
29:48
executive who worked at IAB
29:48
which is the holding company
29:51
that they owned match and Tinder
29:51
I think they still do and she
29:57
was getting on a flight to South
29:57
Africa. she tweeted, going to
30:01
South Africa hope I don't get
30:01
AIDS. Just kidding. I'm white.
30:05
And she thought she was being
30:05
funny. And by the time she
30:07
landed in Cape Town, a reporter
30:07
had found this tweet, it had
30:12
been retweeted 1000s and 1000s
30:12
of time, there's paparazzi
30:15
waiting for at Cape Town
30:15
airport, the hashtag has just
30:18
been landed yet was trending.
30:18
And of course, she'd made
30:21
international headlines and been
30:21
fired. So think about the
30:24
publicity that Tinder and match
30:24
and these holding companies got
30:28
from it. And it's a perfect
30:28
example of, you can say one
30:32
stupid thing on air and digital
30:32
lives forever, that can
30:35
absolutely ruin this brand that
30:35
you've spent. So long building.
30:38
So don't be adjusting Sacco. The
30:38
rule of thumb is, don't say
30:42
anything that you wouldn't want
30:42
plastered on a billboard with
30:45
your company logo next to it and
30:45
don't say anything that you
30:48
wouldn't want your mom reading.
30:48
Those are sort of my two
30:51
benchmarks for what you
30:51
shouldn't shouldn't say. And in
30:53
terms of, you know, making sure
30:53
that your online and offline
30:58
brand matches whether you're a
30:58
content creator or a company, I
31:01
think it's really about telling
31:01
a business story in a way that
31:05
actually resonates with the
31:05
audience. So not carefully
31:07
crafted tweets, but bringing in
31:07
a personal element to it. So the
31:12
the personal anecdotes story
31:12
that you recently just shared,
31:15
actually, in the earlier part of
31:15
our interview was like the
31:17
perfect example. I would say the
31:17
Ben and Jerry's example that I
31:21
shared really where they talk
31:21
about their personal stories
31:24
and, and why they decided to act
31:24
no advocate for the Black Lives
31:28
Matter movement and why they
31:28
decided to put people before
31:32
profits like explaining all of
31:32
that in a way that really
31:34
humanizes you, rather than being
31:34
promotional and salesy. That is
31:39
always the goal when it comes to
31:39
creating good content.
31:41  Alban
That's a good
31:41
distinction. A lot of brands I
31:45
see once they get a platform,
31:45
they think the goal of this
31:48
platform is to get more sales.
31:48
And you're basically building a
31:53
podcast, so you don't have to
31:53
buy the ads on the same podcast.
31:57
But it's kind of a different
31:57
message. You're the you know, if
32:01
you're just being salesy, and
32:01
you're just buying
32:04
advertisements, then you
32:04
probably are just trying to say
32:06
something along the lines of,
32:06
hey, Coca Cola, it's delicious,
32:10
like you love it, go buy some
32:10
versus a actual branded podcast,
32:16
you're telling the story of your
32:16
brand. Here's the values we
32:19
have, here's how we're trying to
32:19
change the world. Here's what
32:22
we're doing for our employees,
32:22
our customers, etc. But how does
32:28
the, I guess like still like the
32:28
technical work of recording a
32:33
podcast, of branding it of
32:33
getting it to sound as polished
32:39
as you know, maybe you are in
32:39
your shoes, or in your lipsticks
32:45
or whatever thing you actually
32:45
are creating, you're probably
32:48
not exceptional at creating
32:48
audio, especially stories for
32:53
audio. Are there things that you
32:53
would recommend clients,
32:57
potential clients brands,
32:57
looking at building a podcast, I
33:01  Fatima
mean, if you're a brand,
33:01
you should be working with an
33:02
agency, if you have budget, you
33:02
should be working with an
33:05
agency. And if not an agency,
33:05
there's some really great
33:07
freelancers out there that you
33:07
can also tap into. And I think
33:11
there's this misconception that
33:11
you have to spend a lot of money
33:14
to create a really good show
33:14
serial was created on a very
33:17
limited production budget. And I
33:17
think people sometimes forget
33:21
that they you don't really need
33:21
to pump, you know, hundreds of
33:24
1000s of dollars into creating a
33:24
really high quality podcast.
33:28
And, you know, there's obviously
33:28
the basics that everyone should
33:31
know, don't record on your
33:31
phone. Don't record on zoom. I
33:34
was very excited to get a
33:34
Riverside link from you because
33:38
I was like, okay, he obviously
33:38
knows what he's doing. Riverside
33:41
is my favorite platform, one of
33:41
the least glitchy sound
33:44
optimized recording software's
33:44
and it's so simple to navigate.
33:48
But hey, I'll even settle for a
33:48
Zen caster or squad cast or, you
33:52
know, one of those platforms
33:52
clean feed, don't use conference
33:56
calls, don't use anchor, don't
33:56
use anything free. If it's free,
33:59
there's usually a reason for it.
33:59
And so that would be my first
34:03
thing like don't compromise on
34:03
audio quality. The second would
34:07
be it actually isn't very
34:07
expensive to hire an editor to
34:11
clean up your audio and put some
34:11
music and even transitional
34:14
signposts and soundscapes to
34:14
really tell that story and give
34:18
listeners a break from the
34:18
conversation. You can use
34:22
generalist platforms like Fiverr
34:22
and Upwork to hire someone even
34:25
offshore for like $20 they could
34:25
do it per episode. So you're not
34:30
looking at a huge capital lift.
34:30
And then you know, there's
34:35
investing in a good microphone
34:35
and investing in good
34:37
headphones, making sure that you
34:37
are distributing your show on
34:43
all of the channels. So not just
34:43
Spotify, Apple and Google which
34:46
are the main ones but there's
34:46
castbox in overcast and and
34:50
Stitcher and I heart and a lot
34:50
of the smaller players as well
34:53
where a lot of people consume
34:53
their content, making sure that
34:57
you're you know, working on the
34:57
organic side podcast. is a
35:00
marathon it's not a sprint, you
35:00
you know, like your friend who
35:03
gave up seven years into the
35:03
game. It's like building your
35:07
personal brand. It's you're
35:07
gonna see momentum slowly over
35:11
time, and it's about continuous
35:11
growth and one day you're gonna
35:15
wake up and you're gonna have 2
35:15
million followers or 2 million
35:18
downloads like Jordan Harbinger.
35:18
But that was not an overnight
35:21
success.
35:22  Alban
Alright, so you, you
35:22
started touching on growing a
35:24
podcast, growing a podcast and
35:24
my experience has been
35:28
exceptionally difficult. Because
35:28
podcasting doesn't have an
35:32
algorithm and we are really
35:32
having to connect to our
35:36
audience, and then convince them
35:36
to listen to the show and then
35:40
retain them. It's quite a long
35:40
process to get somebody to
35:42
listen to the show. And when I
35:42
think about pitching, let's say,
35:47
I'm pitching my boss at
35:47
Salesforce saying, hey, you
35:50
should start a podcast. You
35:50
know, if two months in, we're
35:54
looking at download numbers, and
35:54
we're only seeing 1000 downloads
35:57
per episode, I think it'd be
35:57
pretty easy for them to say, can
36:00
it? We're not spending VP level
36:00
time interviewing people or
36:06
having these conversations, if
36:06
we can't reach more than 50,000
36:11
customers? One, is that the
36:11
right way to think about it? And
36:15
then to how do we grow a podcast
36:15
so that we know it's successful?
36:19  Fatima
So yes, and no, it is I
36:19
do understand the ROI
36:22
justification. And I spend like
36:22
90% of my day convincing and
36:26
talking to brands about it's
36:26
usually the CFOs and the CEOs
36:29
and explaining what the ROI of
36:29
podcasting is. And and what I
36:33
would would say is that it's not
36:33
about the mass downloads, if
36:36
you're looking for, you know,
36:36
the 50,000 people reach then you
36:41
should be doing digital
36:41
advertising. Like it's all about
36:43
the Google and the Facebook ads
36:43
and Reddit and LinkedIn ads.
36:48
podcasting is about reaching a
36:48
niche audience, and it's all
36:51
about the engagement piece. And
36:51
so this medium shouldn't be
36:54
looked at from how many
36:54
downloads do you have? It should
36:57
be looked at? Yes, downloads
36:57
matter. But how engages your
36:59
audience? Are they listening all
36:59
the way through to the end of
37:02
your content? Are they dropping
37:02
off in the first 10 minutes? Or
37:05
are they staying on until your
37:05
conclusion? What's your average
37:08
consumption rate? Those are the
37:08
metrics that I need to be
37:11
looking at not just your number
37:11
of unique listeners, I do
37:15
understand the ROI justification
37:15
especially if you're a
37:18
Salesforce, you're probably
37:18
putting a lot of capital into
37:20
your show. And that's where
37:20
having a production agency that
37:24
really specializes in audience
37:24
growth helps because those folks
37:28
can really, like quill spends
37:28
majority of their time when it
37:32
comes to marketing shows we
37:32
don't focus on the organic
37:35
tactics. We're not doing social
37:35
media for clients or writing out
37:38
blogs, clients can do that
37:38
themselves. We're doing things
37:41
like paid advertising. So
37:41
Spotify ads studio, podcast
37:45
addict, overcast ads, we're
37:45
doing the very industry specific
37:50
targeted ads that are very ROI
37:50
and data driven. So for every
37:54
dollar you're putting in, you're
37:54
seeing how many of those are
37:57
coming out how much money of
37:57
that is coming back to you and
38:00
unique listeners and downloads.
38:00
And so that's how you sort of
38:03
have to approach your podcast.
38:03
It's almost like how you
38:06
approach your business. It's
38:06
like the justification of span
38:09
really needs to come down to how
38:09
you're measuring your analytics
38:12
and your metrics. And it's a
38:12
combination of data driven
38:15
marketing with also benchmarking
38:15
and realistic expectations.
38:20  Alban
So talk to me a little
38:20
bit about some of those tactics,
38:23
you said, Spotify, ads studio,
38:23
overcast ads, podcast addict,
38:28
how did those tactics work?
38:30  Fatima
Yeah, so our I would say
38:30
the marketing tactics that we
38:33
explore are sort of broken up
38:33
into a few different categories
38:37
in terms of paid advertising.
38:37
What we do is a ton of promotion
38:41
on the listing platforms. So
38:41
unfortunately, Apple is not open
38:45
to advertising. And not yet
38:45
anyways, but all of the other
38:48
platforms are. And so things
38:48
like Spotify ads studio, you can
38:53
target people in Spotify, who
38:53
are already listening to
38:56
podcasts based on age, location,
38:56
as well as interest. So what
39:00
other similar shows are they
39:00
already listening to that are
39:03
comparable to yours. So it's a
39:03
very warm lead and pretty high
39:06
conversion rates. We actually,
39:06
were one of the first agencies
39:11
on ads studios, we've worked
39:11
very closely with the Spotify
39:14
product team to sort of evolve
39:14
with them through throughout
39:18
their ad studio journey. And
39:18
they have a $250 minimum spend.
39:22
So even if you're not a big
39:22
brand, you can advertise with
39:24
them. And Spotify actually
39:24
recently launched this year,
39:28
they launched a marketplace as
39:28
well, that's very similar to
39:31
megaphone in a cast where for a
39:31
particular ad spend, let's say
39:35
you have $1,000 to spare, you
39:35
can invest that into their
39:38
marketplace, and they take the
39:38
top 20 shows in your category,
39:42
and they advertise on those
39:42
podcasts, which is a really
39:46
great way of reaching a very
39:46
dedicated listener base that are
39:48
seeking out your content. So
39:48
listing platforms is definitely
39:52
the way to go. podcast addict is
39:52
the Android version of Apple
39:56
podcasts. And unlike Apple, they
39:56
actually allow it advertising.
40:00
And the cool thing about them is
40:00
they can give you impressions
40:04
that they can give you how many
40:04
people clicked on the ad, which
40:06
Spotify does, too. And they also
40:06
show you how many people
40:09
subscribed to your podcast. And
40:09
then under your hosting
40:13
platform, like Buzzsprout, or
40:13
simplecast, you can go to the
40:15
technology section. And you can
40:15
actually see how many of those
40:19
people converted into podcast
40:19
downloads. So you can get pretty
40:23
accurate with like, you know,
40:23
figuring out how far your
40:26
dollars construction what your
40:26
customer acquisition rate is.
40:29
And similar to these two
40:29
metrics, there's, you know,
40:32
overcast, there's, like so many
40:32
paid my megaphones marketplace
40:37
does really well. A cast
40:37
recently launched one as well.
40:42
Yeah, like la castbox is another
40:42
one, they're usually sold out of
40:46
ad slots. But if you can get
40:46
your hands on one, they're
40:48
great. I'm trying to think of
40:48
what else we do from a paid I
40:51
think that's it from the paid
40:51
side of things, we find social
40:54
ads don't work. Social ads are
40:54
really great for likes and
40:58
comments and engagement, but
40:58
don't do anything for podcast
41:01
downloads. And then there's the
41:01
industry specific tactics like
41:05
we apply for all of the awards,
41:05
we have a master sheet of all of
41:09
the podcasting awards to get on
41:09
people's radar, we write
41:12
articles for different
41:12
publications on best podcast to
41:16
tune into. So I'm one of the
41:16
writers for various publications
41:20
on that we own the coil reviews,
41:20
which is very similar to pod
41:23
chaser, where we write out
41:23
customized reviews on different
41:27
shows. So people for SEO really
41:27
helps them with their visibility
41:31
for new listeners. contests are
41:31
a really great way of spiking
41:35
Apple podcast reviews. And then
41:35
if you're doing a contest
41:38
simultaneously to that you
41:38
should be filling out Apple's
41:40
placement form, so that they can
41:40
catch whiff of the fact that
41:44
your contest is really spiking
41:44
your reviews and your downloads,
41:47
which means if they pick you up
41:47
for their new and noteworthy
41:50
section, that's a whole other
41:50
you know, ballgame of visibility
41:54
that you hadn't even initially
41:54
considered.
41:56  Alban
So for smaller podcast,
41:56
specially indie podcasts, Apple
42:01
new noteworthy is something that
42:01
they really want to get involved
42:04
in, it sounds like you actually
42:04
have a little bit of a secret on
42:07
how to get listed in Apple do
42:07
it.
42:10  Fatima
Yes, it is a little bit
42:10
of a trade hack that I'm sharing
42:13
with everyone. I quill doesn't
42:13
believe in holding anything
42:17
close to us. We love
42:17
collaborating competitors. And
42:20
all we the best way to get on
42:20
Apple's new noteworthy section
42:23
is to do a contest external or
42:23
internal facing. If you're a
42:27
company that's more than 500
42:27
people, I recommend that you do
42:30
an internal facing contest. And
42:30
if you're a smaller
42:33
organization, or even just an
42:33
indie content creator, than do
42:37
an external facing one, your
42:37
call to action should be
42:40
subscribe to my show and leave
42:40
me an apple podcast review. And
42:44
then once you see those spike in
42:44
Apple podcast reviews, your
42:48
prize can be, you know, 10 gift
42:48
cards to small businesses around
42:52
the US or North America. Please
42:52
don't do Amazon, we don't want
42:57
to make Jeff Bezos any richer
42:57
than he is. And then once you
43:01
see those spike and reviews
43:01
coming through, you should apply
43:03
on Apple's web page on their
43:03
Apple placement form. And this
43:08
form is for anyone who wants
43:08
additional visibility through
43:10
apple and they can cross
43:10
collaborate to see if the show
43:15
is worth it for them. But if
43:15
they're seeing the type of
43:17
analytics you're bringing in
43:17
through your contest, it's kind
43:20
of a no brainer for them.
43:21  Alban
That's incredible. It's a
43:21
great way to try to go round and
43:25
figure out how to get into Apple
43:25
podcasts new and noteworthy.
43:27  Fatima
Yeah, our clients at
43:27
sickkids Hospital just got
43:30
featured a few weeks ago. And we
43:30
like you know, their listeners
43:34
spikes like 30% over over the
43:34
period that Apple picked up
43:38
their show.
43:39  Alban
Wow, that's incredible.
43:39
Do you see over time that people
43:43
actually stick with the show
43:43
after that spike from Apple new
43:46
noteworthy to most people just
43:46
listen and drop off? Are they
43:50
actually sticking around?
43:51  Fatima
Yeah, so for most of our
43:51
clients, our retention is
43:54
amazing. And that's something
43:54
that we very closely monitor our
43:56
retention curve is like probably
43:56
the most important important
43:59
metric for us, making sure that
43:59
anyone we're driving to the show
44:02
is staying on for future
44:02
episodes, I would say that 100%
44:06
comes down to content retention,
44:06
if people are dropping off
44:09
within the first 10 minutes of
44:09
your show, like your content
44:12
needs work, maybe your
44:12
production quality needs work.
44:16
You know, it shows that it's not
44:16
an authentic contest, people are
44:19
coming on subscribing and then
44:19
bouncing as soon as they claim
44:22
their prize. And so it's a
44:22
really good learning opportunity
44:25
for you like what are you doing?
44:25
You know that what, what could
44:28
you be doing differently to
44:28
retain those listeners?
44:31  Alban
I like the other tactic
44:31
that you kind of alluded to is
44:34
buying ads inside of these
44:34
podcast apps. And you
44:37
differentiated that from buying
44:37
ads on social Yeah. I from you
44:43
know, talking to 1000s of
44:43
podcasters have never I've I've
44:46
talked to one person who claimed
44:46
he can do it. I've never seen
44:50
anyone show me anything except
44:50
losing a vast amount of money on
44:55
Facebook ads or social ads when
44:55
trying to grow a podcast because
44:59
of this. Is my theory at least
44:59
you are getting people taste of
45:04
a podcast, but you have no
45:04
knowledge of whether or not they
45:07
actually have a podcast
45:07
listening habit. And if they
45:10
don't have a podcast listening
45:10
habit already, it's a hard ask
45:15
to be like, hey, you like that
45:15
30 seconds to this podcast.
45:18
Alright, go ahead, download a
45:18
new app, then. Yeah, it's the
45:22
purple app that's been on your
45:22
phone forever. Okay, on, delete
45:25
that subscribe to the show. And
45:25
now start listening to me,
45:29
that's a really big lift, versus
45:29
somebody is already in there.
45:34
someone's already listening on
45:34
podcast attic, they actually
45:37
aren't using a default app. This
45:37
isn't that they download it or
45:39
they're using overcast. It's not
45:39
the default app. They are a
45:42
podcast junkie. And then they
45:42
see this ad for a show that may
45:48
be perfect for their brand.
45:48
That's a very light asked to say
45:53
click it, listen to this
45:53
episode. And if you like it,
45:56
subscribe. The the connection,
45:56
the ROI is so much better than
46:03
social ads.
46:04  Fatima
It's not possible like I
46:04
can pretty much guarantee you
46:07
like social, we've done so much
46:07
advertising on all of the social
46:10
platforms from LinkedIn, Reddit,
46:10
Twitter, Facebook, Google, it's
46:15
You're wasting your money if
46:15
your success metric is podcast
46:18
downloads, if you want likes and
46:18
comments on your social posts
46:22
and brand awareness, and by all
46:22
means, drop that money, your you
46:25
know, it's about brand awareness
46:25
and reach mass audiences. But I
46:28
can pretty much guarantee at
46:28
this point, it's not going to
46:31
equate to podcasting downloads,
46:31
it's kind of a shot at the dark,
46:34
you know, you're hoping
46:34
something sticks, whereas the
46:36
listing platforms, they're
46:36
already listening to podcasts,
46:39
which is a very small subset of
46:39
the market right now. So you
46:43
want it to be a warm lead, and
46:43
you want it to be very targeted.
46:46
And actually another tactic that
46:46
I didn't mention that I probably
46:50
should give them a shout out
46:50
because they're amazing is if
46:53
you are a new podcast, I highly
46:53
recommend advertising on
46:57
industry newsletters, I
46:57
religiously read pod news every
47:00
morning. And so any new podcasts
47:00
that are launching that are
47:03
being advertised in pod news,
47:03
I'm subscribing to them. And
47:06
then pod move is another one,
47:06
which is podcast movements.
47:09
Buzzsprout has one as well. Um,
47:09
I don't know if you do
47:12
advertising externally, but I
47:12
don't think you do. I think
47:15
you're just I read yours
47:15
religiously, Pacific content is
47:18
another one. But pod move and
47:18
podcast movement are two that I
47:22
highly recommend. All the
47:22
industry consumers are reading
47:25
that article or newsletter. And
47:25
so such a warm way of reaching
47:30
those qualified leads. But
47:30
social is a no go.
47:33  Alban
Social media has always
47:33
been has this promise out there.
47:37
And it's like, oh, if you can do
47:37
social media, then you'll do
47:39
exceptionally well. And from a
47:39
business marketing perspective,
47:44
to podcasts, marketing to a lot
47:44
of stuff and like social is a
47:48
good place to connect with your
47:48
audience, to do some social
47:52
listening to learn about your
47:52
customers. I have struggled so
47:58
hard in can Vince saying people
47:58
you meet on social to buy from
48:03
you later, or to listen to your
48:03
podcast or take actions out of
48:07
social media because the time
48:07
that you're spending on tik tok,
48:11
or on Twitter or on Instagram,
48:11
or wherever you are, it's often
48:16
these moments that are just kind
48:16
of feeling a little bit of a
48:18
void. You're like I have nothing
48:18
going on right now. And I'll
48:21
flip open my phone and check
48:21
something out. It's pretty
48:24
difficult as certain types of
48:24
brands to do organic reach, get
48:30
people to say, Hey, why don't
48:30
you take an action right now?
48:34
When all these platforms are
48:34
also very targeted on the only
48:38
people who really get access to
48:38
get people off the platform are
48:42
really the people paying the
48:42
money to do that.
48:45  Fatima
Yeah, I mean, I think
48:45
you sort of hit the nail on the
48:48
head, which is it's a really
48:48
great way for you to connect,
48:51
and understand who your
48:51
listeners are one of our clients
48:54
at the end of, or at the
48:54
beginning of their podcast, they
48:57
always say, tweet at me and let
48:57
me know where you are and what
49:01
you're doing. And so you'll have
49:01
people on their feed who are
49:03
tuning in from New Mexico,
49:03
Dubai, you know, Egypt and
49:08
they're walking their dogs or
49:08
they're driving to work and it's
49:11
such a, you know, great
49:11
engagement tool. It's such a
49:13
great way to know who your
49:13
audiences what they're doing,
49:16
and get to know them better. But
49:16
you know, beyond that, I don't
49:20
think social and podcast
49:20
downloads have much correlation.
49:23  Alban
That's a really
49:23
interesting idea to build
49:25
engagement on social for your
49:25
podcast is a great way to get
49:29
some like feedback. I'm
49:29
definitely going to use that one
49:31
and recommend that to other
49:31
podcasters. Definitely. So one
49:35
other thing that I think we've
49:35
talked a lot about brands, and
49:41
but a lot of the people who
49:41
Buzzsprout reaches and a lot of
49:43
people that will watch this
49:43
show, or listen to this podcast,
49:47
are indie podcasters. And
49:47
they're often people who are
49:51
building a personal brand. And
49:51
so I know you have a lot of
49:55
thoughts about building a
49:55
personal brand, especially when
49:58
it comes to public speaking So
49:58
can you give me the pitch for?
50:02
Why should people be talking in
50:02
public? And how, why should we
50:05
even be building a personal
50:05
brand at all?
50:07  Fatima
Yeah, I mean, look,
50:07
everybody has a personal brand.
50:10
It's what people are saying
50:10
about you when you're not in the
50:13
room. And so if you already have
50:13
a personal brand, you might as
50:16
well refine it hone in and work
50:16
on the positioning and messaging
50:20
of how you, you know, sort of
50:20
what you want to leave behind, I
50:25
would say. And I think that
50:25
there's three reasons why it's
50:29
important to have a personal
50:29
brand. The first is, we all know
50:33
when we're about to go on that
50:33
date, hire someone apply for
50:36
that job, the first thing that
50:36
people are going to do is Google
50:39
you. And if the first thing that
50:39
comes up are pictures of you
50:42
drinking tequila in high school,
50:42
then it you know, not really
50:45
going to help you stand out. The
50:45
second thing that I find really
50:48
cool is that you can choose what
50:48
you want your personal brand to
50:51
be around, mine happens to be
50:51
podcasting. But you can choose
50:56
what you want your brand to look
50:56
like. And that is a really cool
50:59
thing you can refine and control
50:59
that narrative. And I would say
51:04
the last thing is that, you
51:04
know, we all like you know,
51:08
whether it's looking for a job,
51:08
whether it's hiring or whether
51:11
it's connections are contacts,
51:11
your your personal network knows
51:15
your for your personal brand,
51:15
and the stronger your network
51:18
and your brand, the more you can
51:18
leverage and the more you can
51:20
tap into people. And so, you
51:20
know, I wouldn't necessarily say
51:24
public speaking is the way to
51:24
go. I would say, if you enjoy
51:28
public speaking and you're good
51:28
at it, then absolutely, it's a
51:31
lot of work. But it's a really
51:31
great way of connecting with
51:34
people and you know, building
51:34
your network, one handshake at a
51:37
time. But I talked to so many
51:37
people who want to build their
51:40
brand, and they want to start
51:40
speaking and the first question
51:43
I asked them is, well, do you
51:43
enjoy speaking? And they're
51:45
like, Oh, no, I hate public
51:45
speaking. I'm so scared of it,
51:49
then why would you want to spend
51:49
so many hours building your
51:52
brand around a tactic that
51:52
you're not good at and you don't
51:55
enjoy? You know, building your
51:55
personal brand is a full time
51:58
job. It's again, like
51:58
podcasting, a marathon, not a
52:01
sprint. And if you're going to
52:01
be spending so many hours,
52:04
please choose something that
52:04
you're good at that's aligned
52:06
with your skill set. And that,
52:06
you know, feels authentic to
52:10
your brand. I'm sure you love
52:10
podcasting Albin. I mean, I can
52:13
just tell from this like, hour
52:13
and a half that we've been
52:17
talking that you probably really
52:17
enjoy speaking to people, it
52:21
would be very obvious to me if
52:21
you didn't, and if you weren't
52:24
good at it.
52:24  Alban
I think I had an
52:24
interview with Kate Casey, who
52:27
does a podcast called reality
52:27
life with Kate Casey. And she
52:30
said, You really can't compete
52:30
with somebody who enjoys what
52:34
they're doing. She has five
52:34
children, she started multiple
52:38
businesses. She's running a
52:38
ultra successful podcast, she's
52:41
doing so much stuff. I was like,
52:41
when do you recharge and she's
52:44
like, this is the recharge like,
52:44
this is what I love to do. And
52:49
it's very difficult to compete
52:49
with people who are enjoying
52:52
something, if you're enjoying
52:52
it, then you're going to do
52:55
exceptionally well. And you're
52:55
going to make the time for it.
52:58
But if like, you know, it's good
52:58
to face your fears. But if
53:03
you're realizing like I had a
53:03
realization at some point that
53:07
the practice of law was not the
53:07
thing I was ever going to love,
53:11
then you kind of need to pivot
53:11
away from that so that you can
53:14
be in an area where you will
53:14
succeed just by virtue of
53:18
enjoying the thing that you're
53:18
doing. Definitely.
53:20  Fatima
I had no idea. You're a
53:20
lawyer, by the way. That's so
53:23
interesting. You've always been
53:23
Alban, the podcasting guy.
53:28  Alban
I have always been if
53:28
I've been in podcasting a lot
53:31
longer than I was ever in law, I
53:31
guess. So very short time, short
53:36
lived legal career. One thing
53:36
that I see with personal brands
53:39
a lot is imposter syndrome. We
53:39
either get people who are like,
53:45
not an expert at all. And then
53:45
they're hosting clubhouse rooms,
53:49
giving advice that is just
53:49
totally off the wall and not
53:52
accurate. And then on the other
53:52
end, we have pretty accomplished
53:57
people who still because by
53:57
virtue of them, seeing how much
54:02
they could grow personally, they
54:02
see, oh, I'm not qualified yet
54:07
to speak on this subject and
54:07
they hold themselves back. How
54:11
do you we help people,
54:11
especially people who are
54:13
already qualified to start
54:13
speaking and building a personal
54:17
brand, how do we help them get
54:17
over that hurdle?
54:20  Fatima
I think imposter
54:20
syndrome is very normal for just
54:25
everybody in the not just in the
54:25
podcasting industry. But when I
54:29
look around in my network,
54:29
especially women, I find that
54:32
they're you know, very afraid of
54:32
coming across as too promotional
54:35
or opinionated or assertive. And
54:35
they don't want to put up their
54:39
hand and take credit for their
54:39
ideas or promote themselves and,
54:43
and build their brand. And
54:43
oftentimes I was like to remind
54:46
people that you are CEOs have
54:46
your own personal brand. And if
54:50
you don't advocate for yourself,
54:50
nobody else well. That's not to
54:54
say that I don't ever feel
54:54
imposter syndrome, but I also
54:57
try to remind myself that nobody
54:57
else has More or less have a
55:00
right to be doing exactly what
55:00
I'm doing. Really the difference
55:04
is just going for it. And so on
55:04
the days where I'm not feeling
55:08
particularly confident what I do
55:08
is I over prepare. And over
55:12
preparation equates to
55:12
confidence means that you don't
55:15
you don't leave the room for
55:15
imposter syndrome.
55:18  Alban
I really liked that
55:18
answer, I can see that myself
55:22
sometimes that the moments where
55:22
I'm very anxious about doing a
55:26
interview or something, you put
55:26
in a nother hour or two of
55:30
research and you start writing
55:30
out your answers your potential
55:34
questions, it really does start
55:34
to dissolve some of that fear.
55:38  Fatima
Absolutely. 100%. I love
55:38
that. I think that this is for
55:43
everyone across the board, you
55:43
know, if you are going to be
55:47
judged on a critical lens, you
55:47
just the margin of error is very
55:50
low. And so you shouldn't give
55:50
people the opportunity or
55:55
yourself the opportunity to not
55:55
be over prepared for every
55:58
opportunity walk into
55:59  Alban
one thing I've also
55:59
noticed, sometimes it's helpful
56:03
for people with imposter
56:03
syndrome is remembering, it's
56:07
very difficult for a true
56:07
beginner to learn from an
56:11
expert. A lot of times a
56:11
beginner needs to learn from
56:14
someone who's just like beginner
56:14
plus, or maybe like an
56:18
intermediate level. And so, if
56:18
you're six months into your
56:24
podcasting, journey, sharing,
56:24
hey, here's what what it's been
56:28
like for me, here's some of the
56:28
hurdles that I've overcome.
56:30
Here's some of the stuff I've
56:30
learned. You could think well,
56:32
what about somebody who's
56:32
already been doing this for 10
56:34
years? You know, I'm not at the
56:34
same level as them Well, there's
56:38
actually people who can't really
56:38
learn from the 10 year veteran,
56:41
I think of Terry Gross is like
56:41
one of the best interviewers
56:45
especially podcast interviewers
56:45
now and the stuff that she talks
56:50
about is so far above my level
56:50
that I often think I don't even
56:55
know how applicable This is. To
56:55
me it's hard to learn but if
56:58
there was somebody who has you
56:58
know may not feel empowered yet
57:02
to teach their tactics and
57:02
things they've learned those
57:06
actually might be the things
57:06
that are just two three levels
57:08
above me that now are speaking
57:08
right to the lessons I need to
57:13
learn
57:13  Fatima
Mm Hmm It's like that
57:13
simple phrase or quote or
57:16
something or someone for
57:16
everyone I like truly believe
57:20
that when it comes to content as
57:20
well.
57:23  Alban
That's a good There's
57:23
your your content can be for
57:26
just a few people. It can be
57:26
their content soulmate. And
57:29  Fatima
yeah, exactly. Content
57:29
soulmate. I love that. And you
57:32
can't you can't be everything to
57:32
everyone. And if you're creating
57:34
your podcast, to try to reach
57:34
everyone, you're you're you're
57:38
already setting yourself up to
57:38
fail.
57:40  Alban
Alright, so lastly,
57:40
before we go, you have also
57:43
started a conference that's
57:43
really specializing and helping
57:46
brands understand branded
57:46
content and podcasting. COVID
57:51
kind of wrecked the first one,
57:51
it stopped you from having the
57:53
second year. But listening
57:53
conference is coming in 2020 to
57:58
tell us about this conference
57:58
and what you're doing.
58:00  Fatima
It's coming. I mean,
58:00
unless the Delta variant decides
58:03
to mess it up again, for us, we
58:03
are hoping to be able to pull it
58:08
off this year. So we the first
58:08
couple of years, like last year,
58:11
and this year, we're supposed to
58:11
have our conference in LA at the
58:14
Millennium Biltmore. The entire
58:14
conference is about supporting
58:18
brands who are creating branded
58:18
podcasts, and you know, helping
58:22
them take their shows to the
58:22
next level. So it's a mix of
58:25
corporations and fortune 500 100
58:25
companies who are interested in
58:28
podcasting, along with industry
58:28
professionals like yourself. Our
58:34
headliner is Sarah caning. I
58:34
know we talked about earlier in
58:37
this interview. So she it's a
58:37
full circle moment for me
58:41
because she was the reason that
58:41
I got into the industry and
58:44
started consuming shows. And so
58:44
last year, when I was thinking
58:48
about who I wanted, as our
58:48
headliner is kind of a no
58:51
brainer, I wanted to go back to
58:51
the roots. So she's coming out
58:54
to talk about just the impact
58:54
that podcasts can have on brands
58:59
as well as how to create really
58:59
good content. And I think
59:03
hopefully, by then, season four
59:03
cereal should also be launching.
59:06
So hopefully, we can also get
59:06
some intel from her on what that
59:10
might look like. But yes, I
59:10
really hope to see everyone
59:13
there. It's going to be on June
59:13
23 2022. Plenty of time for
59:18
this, you know, interesting year
59:18
to be over. I hope to see all of
59:22
you there. Whether you're a
59:22
content creator, whether you're
59:24
a brand, whether you're an
59:24
industry professional, it'll be
59:27
some really great networking and
59:27
it's la it's always a good time.
59:30  Alban
It's always a good time.
59:30
It's actually the hotel that I
59:33
think podcast movement
59:33
evolutions is mostly held in and
59:37
it's a great venue in a just a
59:37
blast to be in downtown LA. So
59:43
Fatimah before we go, tell us I
59:43
know you're pretty much active
59:47
on all social media. But if
59:47
people want to connect with
59:51
quill if they want to build a
59:51
branded Podcast, where should
59:54
they find you?
59:55  Fatima
Yeah, so I if you want
59:55
to find me, it's not hard. I'm
59:58
pretty much everywhere, all of
59:58
the channel. LinkedIn, the only
1:00:01
thing I'm not on is tech talk. I
1:00:01
just like haven't given into it
1:00:04
but LinkedIn, Facebook,
1:00:04
Instagram, Twitter zaidifatimah
1:00:09
is my handle. quill Inc is the
1:00:09
handle across all of our
1:00:12
channels. If you are listening
1:00:12
today please tweet at Alban and
1:00:16
I and let us know who you are,
1:00:16
where you are and what you're
1:00:19
doing. Alban, what handle should
1:00:19
everyone be tweeting at us?
1:00:23  Alban
Well, I'm always at Alban
1:00:23
Brooke, so you can find me
1:00:26
there.
1:00:26  Fatima
Perfect. And we'll we'll
1:00:26
definitely tweet back. And
1:00:29
that's how we start the
1:00:29
engagement.
1:00:31  Alban
Sounds great. Thank you
1:00:31
so much for being generous with
1:00:34
your time and spending the day
1:00:34
with us. Hopefully, we'll talk
1:00:37
to you soon. Thanks for having
1:00:37
me.