Podland News

The last word in podcasting news... every Thursday in Podland, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from Sam Talks Technology in the UK, join forces to review and analyse some of the weeks top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout and Riverside FM.

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episode 39: Apple: The Internet Explorer of podcast apps? Evo Terra on why podcast apps suck. How's Spotify doing and multiple new ways to discover podcasts. [transcript]


Join James Cridland and Sam Sethi

INTERVIEW: 

  • Evo Terra - Podcast Pontifications - he lists his helpful commandments here.

PODNEWS HEADLINES:

  • How’s podcasting doing for Spotify? Internal Spotify podcast consumption data has been leaked to Business Insider.

  • If Spotify Isn't getting much value from Gimlet, that feeling’s mutual

  • Matt Deegan writes more about the figures and the strategy of exclusives

  • Spotify has expanded “Music and Talk” shows to fifteen more countries

  • Spotify will let all US-based Anchor podcasters sell subscriptions 

DISCOVERY TOOLS:

  • Podchaser has refreshed their creator profiles and alerts. 

  • Entale has also added a way to follow people and be notified whenever they’re featured in new episodes.

  • You can now link to a specific timestamp in a podcast episode on Buzzsprout.

  • Podcast host Captivate now sends podcast credits automatically to Podchaser using the Podcast Taxonomy

  • Apple has also rolled out a social media link generator to help promote your podcast.

TECH: 

  • Buzzsprout RSS feeds now include the podcast:GUID

  • Podnews now has a public lightning node. You’re welcome to connect. For value4value payments, so we can see boostagram messages

Buzzsprout
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 2021-08-26  59m
 
 
00:01  James
Welcome to Podland.
00:02
The last word in
00:02
podcasting news.
00:04
Portland is sponsored
00:04
by Buzzsprout.
00:05
He is by over a hundred thousand
00:05
podcasters like us to host,
00:09
promote and track your podcast.
00:11
And by riverside.fm version
00:11
2.0 recording podcasts and
00:16
video interviews in studio
00:16
quality from anywhere.
00:18
Just got an upgrade.
00:19
We're using it now.
00:20
It's the 26th of August, 2021.
00:24
I'm James crude and the
00:24
editor of pod news.net
00:26
here in Australia.
00:27  Sam
Hello, I'm Sam Steffi.
00:28
The editor of Sam
00:30  Evo
Talks Technology
00:30
and I'm emo Tara.
00:32
And later I'll be talking about
00:32
podcast apps and why they suck
00:37  James
pod lands a weekly
00:37
podcast where Sam and
00:39
I delve deeper into
00:39
the week's podcasting
00:41  Sam
news.
00:42
So James let's get on with
00:42
the big stories of that
00:44
week here in Portland.
00:45
And they're taken
00:45
from a pod news.
00:48
How was podcasting
00:48
doing for Spotify?
00:51
James?
00:52
Let's start off with our massive
00:53  James
question like that.
00:54
Yes.
00:54
let's start off with a
00:54
massive question like that.
00:56
It turns out the business
00:56
insider got some leaked
00:58
data from September
00:58
of last year, 331.
01:03
Million hours of podcasts.
01:05
They measure podcasts by
01:05
the hour at Spotify in that
01:09
month, September 18.7% of
01:09
all podcasts time listened
01:13
to was made by Spotify.
01:16
So 18% seems to say that Spotify
01:16
is doing quite well, but Gimlet
01:21
accounted for just not 0.4%
01:21
of all podcasts listening.
01:24
I'd given it was bought
01:24
for $230 million and the.
01:28
Commentary around that from
01:28
business insider is, was Gimlet
01:32
really a very good investment.
01:34
And I kind of wonder,
01:36  Sam
it doesn't seem like
01:36
it's getting much value now.
01:39
Gimlet, we're a bit peeved
01:39
though, because they
01:41
started putting out on
01:41
Gimlet reply or a tweet.
01:44
What did they say,
01:45  James
James?
01:46
they posted this very strange
01:46
tweet, basically saying ever
01:50
since we were sold to Spotify,
01:50
we haven't had any control
01:54
over the ads and just know
01:54
that we don't endorse the ad,
01:57
which is currently running.
01:59
And then there was a pause
01:59
and then we meant the
02:01
ad for the U S Miller.
02:03
Okay.
02:04
Somebody at reply all is not
02:04
particularly happy about their
02:07
show being used to recruit
02:07
new soldiers and stuff.
02:12
as I said on the pod news
02:12
podcast, a couple of days ago,
02:15
the children are fighting again.
02:18
It really does
02:18  Sam
feel like that.
02:19
Nick Hilton, right?
02:20
Good posting medium
02:20
about the separation of
02:23
creators and advertisers.
02:24
And I feels like it's an old
02:24
argument, the magazine, and
02:27
paperworld used to have this
02:27
where advertisers want to slam
02:30
an advert right next to content.
02:31
And it seemed inappropriate.
02:34
He said, I expect a relationship
02:34
between a show and an
02:37
advertiser and podcasting that
02:37
I don't in any other medium.
02:40
So I think what
02:40
he's trying to say.
02:42
And he might be trying to back
02:42
a Gimlet, which is look, if
02:46
the show's about, I dunno,
02:46
cooking, is it appropriate
02:49
to slam an ad for the U S
02:49
military right next to it?
02:52
It doesn't seem appropriately
02:54  James
related.
02:55
yeah.
02:55
And I think also podcasting
02:55
is very much closer to
02:59
the advertisers in terms
02:59
of, for example, later
03:02
when I talked to you.
03:03
Yeah.
03:03
Evo talks about a feature that
03:03
he would really like, am I pop
03:07
in which you'll hear later and
03:07
say, and Buzzsprout offers that
03:11
and Buzzsprout is our sponsor.
03:12
And I talk about that for a bit.
03:14
That's the sort of thing that
03:14
podcast listeners expect is that
03:19
closer relationships, I think
03:19
next, absolutely right there.
03:22
You don't expect that close
03:22
relationship and India.
03:25
It's very much frowned upon.
03:26
When you look at the print
03:26
media, everybody talks
03:29
about, the relationship
03:29
between church and state
03:31
and all this kind of stuff.
03:33
But actually I think
03:33
that there is something
03:35
there around podcasting
03:35
being much more intimate.
03:39
if you're playing
03:39
the drinking game.
03:41
Yes.
03:42
Did say intimate, have
03:42
another drink about podcast
03:45
advertising and, yeah.
03:46
So I think Nick's
03:46
absolutely right there.
03:48
Now,
03:48  Sam
Matt Deegan also has
03:48
written about what's been going
03:51
on with the Spotify figures
03:51
and he said, it's interesting
03:55
to see hours consumed rather
03:55
than downloads, which is what
03:57
you just said, James, as a
03:57
streamer, it's a metric that's
04:01
pretty exclusive to Spotify.
04:03
They know what you actually
04:03
listened to rather than just
04:05
adding up downloads, which is
04:05
what I've been saying for a long
04:09
time that I think downloads.
04:11
Oh, dead.
04:12
As a metric let's as an
04:12
industry, get rid of them,
04:15
because I think it's the dirty
04:15
little secret of podcasting,
04:19
you'll say to advertisers,
04:19
yeah, we had 500 downloads or
04:23
5,000 or whatever your number
04:23
may be as an advertiser.
04:26
You don't know whether your
04:26
advert was listened to or not.
04:29
Whereas Spotify can actually
04:29
tell you how far along
04:33
the stream the podcast was
04:33
listened to and therefore,
04:37
whether your ad was, I think.
04:39
The industry ourselves
04:39
needs to move away from the
04:42
CPC model to a CPA model.
04:45  James
I think cost per
04:45
thousand versus cost per action
04:48
is a different conversation.
04:49
But I do think certainly
04:49
that, Brian Violetta in
04:53
sounds profitable, very
04:53
good website newsletter
04:55
sounds profitable.com.
04:56
he was saying that apple
04:56
actually missed a trick.
04:59
Obviously apple had a bug with
04:59
some versions of apple podcasts
05:02
recently, which essentially
05:02
meant that they weren't
05:03
automatically downloading shows.
05:06
And he was saying that
05:06
apple missed a trick because
05:08
actually it will be better
05:08
for the industry if we were
05:11
to stop automatic downloads.
05:13
Now, I think that apple don't
05:13
necessarily think that's
05:17
particularly fair because
05:17
I think that, it's just
05:19
somebody else piling onto
05:19
apple and apple have not had
05:22
a very good couple of months
05:22
and I can quite see apples.
05:26
But, I can also, I think
05:26
the point that, I took out
05:30
of Brian's piece was that
05:30
auto downloads shouldn't
05:35
be the default in any
05:35
podcast app these days.
05:39
We don't really
05:39
need it these days.
05:40
I'm not saying get
05:40
rid of downloads.
05:42
Altogether.
05:44
I'm not saying even get
05:44
rid of auto downloads.
05:46
But what I am saying is
05:46
for the vast majority
05:49
of people, we don't need
05:49
automatic downloads anymore.
05:51
It would make for much better
05:51
stats, it would make for
05:54
much better information for
05:54
advertisers and frankly much
05:57
better ad targeting as well.
05:59
If we didn't have
05:59
auto downloads.
06:01
And instead when you press
06:01
the play button, that is the
06:05
user initiated download, that
06:05
gets the podcast for you.
06:09  Sam
I think.
06:10
A bug or a feature
06:10
when it first came out.
06:12
And I still think he
06:12
should have been a
06:13
feature, apple called it a
06:15  James
bug, but it's a
06:15
difficult thing because if
06:17
you then turn around and you
06:17
say, that's 11% of podcasts,
06:20
which are auto downloaded
06:20
and never listened to.
06:23
We know that number now, which
06:23
we've never known in the past.
06:27
So that's a glimpse into that
06:27
data because of apple podcasts.
06:32
But yeah.
06:33
Which means that there are a
06:33
significantly larger amount of
06:38
podcasts, which are out there
06:38
now, which are never being
06:40
listened to, it's all priced
06:40
into the cost per thousand.
06:43
So I don't think it's a
06:43
problem for the industry, but
06:46
a wouldn't it be interesting
06:46
if there was a change in the
06:51
way that we thought about
06:51
these things and that actually
06:53
also downloads wasn't given
06:53
to people by default, by some
06:57
of these large, apps and yeah.
07:00
It's very difficult to get
07:00
Spotify to automatically
07:03
download shows.
07:04
it's very difficult to get
07:04
Google podcasts to automatically
07:07
download shows in PocketCasts,
07:07
downloading is something which
07:11
you turn on, but in overcast
07:11
and in apple podcasts, auto
07:15
downloads are on by default and
07:15
maybe that's the best thing.
07:18
Maybe we need
07:19  Sam
a new metric
07:19
cost per listen.
07:21
That would be an
07:21
interesting one.
07:22
Wouldn't it?
07:23
Now James, you've been
07:23
getting out your napkin as
07:26
well, going back to Spotify.
07:28  James
I'm not quite sure what
07:28
that's supposed to mean, but
07:31
yes, I did some math or maths
07:31
depending where you live.
07:35
please add the S I got hassled
07:35
by Harry who listens to this
07:39
podcast and Harry said, no,
07:39
say maths, but anyway, I
07:44
did a little bit of, I did a
07:44
little bit of calculations.
07:48
If you look at the leaked
07:48
Spotify, You can work out.
07:52
So we know that the
07:52
average length of a podcast
07:54
is about 37 minutes.
07:56
We know how many hours of
07:56
podcasts were played on Spotify.
07:58
So therefore we can work
07:58
out that there were 543
08:01
million podcast plays
08:01
in total on Spotify.
08:05
And Spotify is about
08:05
20% of the industry.
08:07
So you can work out there.
08:09
If you include 11% of podcasts
08:09
being auto downloaded and
08:13
never listened to, you
08:13
can probably work out that
08:15
there are at least 3 billion
08:15
podcasts downloads per month.
08:19
And actually that figure
08:19
is probably too low
08:23
because that assumes that
08:23
everybody on Spotify.
08:27
Never bails out of a show
08:27
early or fast forwards it.
08:30
So let's assume that two
08:30
thirds of shows are listened
08:33
to right to the end, which
08:33
is data that I've seen in a
08:36
number of different studies.
08:38
So maybe we have 4 billion
08:38
downloads per month in
08:42
terms of podcasting.
08:43
I notice that Libsyn is
08:43
currently quoting 7.9
08:46
billion per quarter for their
08:46
network and their network is.
08:51
not necessarily
08:51
particularly large.
08:54
So maybe again, maybe
08:54
I'm underestimating it,
08:56
4 billion downloads a
08:56
month is not bad, I think.
08:59
Yeah,
08:59  Sam
no, it's very tasty
08:59
that number now, the number I
09:03
thought that was interesting
09:03
was the 37 minutes though.
09:05
and it goes back to again,
09:05
if you've got a streaming
09:08
measurement, you could actually
09:08
then put a different price
09:11
point on ads, anything before
09:11
20 minutes, anything in the
09:16
20 minutes to 37 minutes
09:16
and then anything after
09:18  James
this one.
09:19
NPR was trying to do with rad a
09:19
couple of years ago was to have
09:22
a much more robust analytics
09:22
platform that allowed you to
09:26
know what ads were listened
09:26
to in a particular show.
09:31
And therefore to be
09:31
able to report that
09:33
back on a sample basis.
09:35
And that could be a plan
09:35
for, how you pay rod had
09:40
perceived issues with privacy.
09:42
And that was the reason why
09:42
that didn't get anything.
09:45
But, maybe there's something
09:45
interesting, particularly around
09:49
what you can do with boosts
09:49
with, cryptocurrency, because
09:53
actually a cryptocurrency
09:53
payment for this show is being
09:57
made every single minute.
09:58
So you could theoretically go
09:58
and have a look at the amount
10:02
of cryptocurrency payments
10:02
and work out some form of
10:06
audience numbers from that.
10:07
But, I think it's a little
10:07
bit too early to be talking
10:10
about that quite yet.
10:12  Sam
Some have pointed out
10:12
to us that their favorite
10:14
Spotify produce podcasts
10:14
have disappeared from
10:17
their usual podcast feeds.
10:19
Can you explain
10:19
that to me, James
10:21  James
Spotify has apparently
10:21
taken a few more shows away
10:25
from standard RSS feeds and
10:25
have made them exclusive.
10:30
I think what I have since
10:30
discovered is some of those
10:34
shows are actually they've
10:34
killed the RSS feed altogether.
10:38
So if you try searching for.
10:40
You still might find that
10:40
podcast as a ghost in one, in
10:44
some of the is, but as soon as
10:44
you try listening to a show, you
10:47
find out that you can't anymore.
10:49
Spotify have explained that
10:49
the reason why is that they
10:53
get better stats from exclusive
10:53
shows because they get the
10:56
streaming stats, not the
10:56
streaming universe comments
10:59
rather than the download stats.
11:01
And so therefore they can use
11:01
that to make better shows.
11:04
I'm not so sure.
11:06
Interesting to see them.
11:07
Adding a few more
11:07
exclusive shows.
11:09
One of those is serial
11:09
killers, which is one of my
11:12
favorite names for a podcast.
11:14
Cause it does what it says
11:14
on the tin serial killers.
11:16
I wonder what that's
11:16
a podcast about.
11:18
Oh, I know what that is.
11:18
A podcast about is
11:18
about serial killers.
11:20
Yeah.
11:21
It passes the Ron seal test it.
11:22
Doesn't it just, no one
11:22
in America will understand
11:25  Sam
that.
11:25
No.
11:25
Or anywhere around the world
11:25
actually, but there you go.
11:29
Subscription Spotfire has
11:29
now turned on subscriptions
11:33
to elect all US-based anchor
11:33
podcasts, sell subscriptions.
11:37
What are they?
11:38
Yeah.
11:39  James
So anyone with an
11:39
anchor show in the U S can
11:43
now put their podcast into,
11:43
a paid podcast, subscription
11:47
service, with Spotify.
11:50
And that's all very exciting.
11:51
They've added new price tiers.
11:52
You can now.
11:53
Ask for your listeners, email
11:53
addresses, which they can
11:57
share with you if they want to,
11:57
which is one of the criticisms,
12:00
obviously against apple.
12:02
The other criticism
12:02
against apple is keeping
12:04
30% of the revenue.
12:06
Whereas Spotify is keeping
12:06
nothing of the revenue for
12:08
the first two years and then
12:08
5% of the revenue after that.
12:13
And I think that interestingly
12:13
coincides with a piece in the
12:16
verge where a number of podcasts
12:16
companies are criticizing apple
12:19
podcasts for their subscription
12:19
products so far, Spotify is
12:22
going to let everybody else.
12:24
So even you, Mr.
12:25
Sathi sell subscriptions
12:25
on Spotify.
12:30
If you're an anchor podcaster,
12:30
probably in September, so
12:36
we'll be able to buy shows in
12:36
September as foreign types.
12:40
And it basically said, pretty
12:40
well soon after that, we'll
12:43
be able to sell them as well.
12:44
So good news for people who wish
12:44
to sell their particular show.
12:50  Sam
Now do you have to pay
12:50
the, anything to become a
12:54
creator of subscriptions like
12:56  James
you do with
12:56
apple, you don't at all,
12:58
from what I understand.
12:59
So it's just as simple as,
12:59
getting your stuff in there,
13:02
which might be interesting.
13:04
I think it'll be interesting
13:04
to see what Spotify does here.
13:07
Interesting.
13:07
Also to see what Spotify
13:07
does, if I was to.
13:12
Create an anchor podcast,
13:12
put one show in there, sell
13:16
a bunch of subscriptions and
13:16
then not do any other shows.
13:19
I'm not quite sure
13:19
what recompense
13:21
Spotify has, for that.
13:24
And I'm not quite sure what that
13:24
means for people that might get
13:27
a little bit upset about that.
13:28
I think it's going to be
13:28
really interesting to watch.
13:30
It's a very different model
13:30
than the apple model of paying,
13:35
whatever it was, 20 bucks or 30
13:35
bucks to get into this service.
13:39
And then apple actually humanly
13:39
moderates, you and checks
13:43
that you're a good person.
13:44
my suspicion is that
13:44
Spotify will work in a
13:46
slightly different way.
13:47
So it'll be
13:47
interesting to watch.
13:49
I did read somewhere today
13:49
and I'm not quite sure
13:51
where the figure came from.
13:53
That only 100 anchor shows
13:53
so far have made themselves
13:59
available for paid subscription,
13:59
because it has been available
14:03
in beta for a couple of months.
14:05
I'm not quite sure of the
14:05
veracity of that number,
14:07
but, again, I think that's
14:07
an interesting number to see.
14:10
And for the record.
14:12
Over a thousand paid for
14:12
podcasts with apple podcasts
14:15
and over a thousand podcasts
14:15
surrounding value for value
14:19
with the podcast index.
14:20
so that's where we are
14:20
and by the way, nearly 4
14:23
million podcasts out there.
14:25
So it's still a
14:25
very small thing.
14:26  Sam
Okay.
14:27
Last bit of, Spotfire news
14:27
before we move on, Spotify
14:30
has expanded its music
14:30
and talk shows to 15 more
14:33
countries, including Germany.
14:35
The Philippines and Brazil,
14:35
the service also has a new
14:39
look, which is very nice.
14:40
And there are a few examples
14:40
which mix music and talk.
14:44
You can look at, Brad Hills
14:44
take cover, and you can
14:48
look at our Tom Webster's
14:48
deep six, for example.
14:51
it's still a service though
14:51
that I find is one Dato.
14:55
It needs to move on.
14:56
If it wants to
14:56
actually do what radio.
14:59
Presenters though.
15:00
Yeah.
15:01
And allowing you to mix
15:02  James
over the music.
15:03
Yeah, I agree.
15:03
And I think that part of
15:03
that is due to the music
15:05
licenses that Spotify have.
15:07
Because if you allow somebody
15:07
to talk over the music, then
15:10
you're making a derivative
15:10
products, which, Spotify don't
15:13
necessarily have the rights
15:13
for both Brad Hills take cover,
15:16
which is a very good show.
15:18
All about cover versions
15:18
and Tom Webster's deep sex.
15:21
which is a very good show
15:21
with six songs, which are
15:24
somehow related to each other.
15:27
Both of those are pod faded.
15:29
If you like both of those Tom
15:29
and Brad have given up on.
15:32
So what does that tell you?
15:34
partially it might tell
15:34
you that they were just.
15:37
Kicking the tires and trying
15:37
it out, but also partially
15:39
that may tell you that, it
15:39
wasn't necessarily something
15:43
that they were getting any
15:43
feedback from any data from and
15:46
didn't feel it was worthwhile.
15:47
Continuing.
15:48
I can't really talk for either
15:48
Tom off or for Brad, but you
15:51
get that feeling that might
15:51
be happening, interesting
15:54
to see it being rolled out.
15:55
There's, a nice, more
15:55
swish UI, which people
15:59
might have fun with.
15:59
And, but I would agree.
16:01
Yeah.
16:01
Think it's not quite
16:01
there yet as a product
16:04  Sam
now swiftly on this
16:04
week's James and whether
16:08
you meant to or not, you've
16:08
been writing a lot and
16:11
I've called it discovery.
16:13
Now we've got seven different
16:13
forms of new discovery that
16:17
we're going to discuss now
16:17
in the next three hours.
16:20
And then next round I pull
16:20
up at coffee and settle
16:24  James
back.
16:24
What's
16:24  Sam
number one, he
16:24
says moving swiftly.
16:27
number one, just fuck that.
16:29
Feel.
16:30
Matt Deegan, a friend of the
16:30
chair again, he's been talking
16:33
about, there's too much material
16:33
around in terms of you probably
16:38
haven't got enough room to
16:38
really give Spotify promo value.
16:41
Yeah.
16:41
To your acquisitions.
16:43
Basically, he's saying that the
16:43
issue with gambler and podcasts
16:46
and ringer and all the other
16:46
shows that have been created
16:49
Spotify, isn't allowing that
16:49
discovery of those new shows.
16:53
Maybe that's the reason
16:53
why Gimlet has only got
16:56
0.4% in the Spotify stats.
17:00
So the question is, should
17:00
Spotify create a new
17:03
separate podcast client
17:03
and make discovery easily?
17:06
Maybe we've talked about
17:06
this before, briefly as well.
17:09
Haven't we, James, they
17:10  James
have made us per
17:10
radio client for their
17:12
algorithmic jukeboxes, which
17:12
they trialed in Australia.
17:15
We got something
17:15
first for a change.
17:17
so that was nice.
17:18
I think the problem with Gimlet
17:18
isn't promo, I think the problem
17:23
with Gimlet is that Gimlet staff
17:23
appeals to public radio lists.
17:27
Slightly younger public
17:27
radio listeners who
17:29
are not using Spotify.
17:31
And I think that,
17:31
that's the main issue.
17:34
It's the wrong audience
17:34
for the wrong product.
17:37
And I think either that means
17:37
that Gimlet needs to get younger
17:40
in its outlook and produce
17:40
more of the sorts of products
17:44
like, call her daddy and Joe.
17:47
Or it means that Gimlet
17:47
was just the wrong purchase
17:50
because it's just not a
17:50
well aligned audience.
17:53
I don't actually think it's
17:53
a promo issue at all here,
17:55
but I would also agree
17:55
that it is really hard.
17:59
If you've got 300 shows,
17:59
it's really hard to
18:02
promote all 300 at once.
18:04
It's like a radio station you
18:04
end up promoting the breakfast.
18:08
Because that's the thing
18:08
that you want to promote.
18:11
You've got your heroes
18:11
that you want to promote.
18:13
Nobody is promoting who
18:13
the evening show is.
18:16
He says as an evening show,
18:16
not for a year, nobody ever
18:20
promotes the evening show.
18:22
They only promote the breakfast
18:22
show because that's where you
18:25
get the best bang for your buck.
18:27
And maybe that's what Spotify
18:27
has an issue with right now.
18:30  Sam
ITunes probably went
18:30
through this when they
18:32
were trying to have music.
18:34
And then they were
18:34
trying to have films.
18:36
They were trying to have
18:36
other content and they then
18:38
tried to create one client.
18:39
Then they separated them out.
18:41
I suspect Spotify is
18:41
going through that same
18:43
tension internally.
18:45
Do they try and create
18:45
the Uber client one single
18:49
app or do they Spotify?
18:50
Break it out into
18:50
two or three apps
18:52  James
and they're chucking
18:52
audio books in as well.
18:54
Of course, they've had audio
18:54
books in Germany for a while
18:57
and they're moving that out
18:57
to other platforms as well.
18:59
How's that going to fit
18:59
into the Spotify UI?
19:02
yeah, I agree.
19:03
I think it's going to be harder
19:03
and harder for Spotify to
19:06
promote this kind of stuff.
19:07  Sam
Okay.
19:08
Now a discovery too.
19:10
And this one.
19:11
Pod chasers refresh their
19:11
creator profiles, and now
19:16
you can follow creators
19:16
across different shows.
19:19
and they've also changed
19:19
the roles to credit.
19:22
What do you think of that
19:23  James
one, James?
19:23
Yeah.
19:24
So they've stopped calling
19:24
everybody a creator and
19:27
they've started having
19:27
a list of credits, which
19:30
I think is a good idea.
19:31
So if you have look at the
19:31
listing, for example, for pod
19:34
land at the pod news websites,
19:34
then you'll find it now says
19:37
credits and not creators.
19:39
Cause I was using
19:39
their language.
19:41
It's a data that has come
19:41
from the podcast taxonomy
19:45
as well, which is helpful
19:45
because it means that we all
19:48
know now what an editor is,
19:48
what a podcast host is, what
19:52
an executive producer is
19:52
and all that kind of stuff.
19:55  Sam
Now, jumping ahead
19:55
slightly, one of the
19:58
companies captivate.
20:00
Has done something
20:00
very interesting for
20:01
discovery as well.
20:03
It now sends the podcast
20:03
credits automatically to pod
20:06  James
chaser.
20:07
Yes.
20:07
So I'm an advisor to captivate.
20:09
I need to say that upfront, if
20:09
you are doing a podcast within
20:13
captivate and you're actually.
20:16
Adding people to your
20:16
authorization list, so you
20:19
can have the host to using
20:19
captivate and the editor using
20:22
captivate and everything else.
20:24
It uses that as credits, which
20:24
it then automatically sends
20:28
off to pod chaser as well.
20:29
They're using the
20:29
podcast taxonomy too.
20:32
again, a great plan
20:32
because it allows.
20:35
Anybody who is using a podcast
20:35
host and captivate in this
20:38
particular case to get those
20:38
credits, in, as a standard
20:42
fashion, into a pod chaser to,
20:42
what captivate has also done.
20:47
And I just mentioned it
20:47
there around podcast networks
20:49
is that they've added.
20:50
Podcast networks
20:50
available to all users.
20:53
now, so if you want to run
20:53
your own podcast network and
20:56
you want full visibility of
20:56
how everybody's doing, and
21:00
you want team management and
21:00
you want a network website
21:03
and everything else, then
21:03
captivate is the place to be.
21:05
Because it's ma it's giving
21:05
that available to everybody.
21:09
if you're on the bottom tier
21:09
at captivate, I think you
21:11
can have a podcast network
21:11
of three or maybe four
21:14
shows and that goes up as
21:14
your, tier goes up as well.
21:19
I think it's a good
21:19
thing, although I would
21:20
say that would not,
21:21  Sam
I've also done one
21:21
other thing, which is they've
21:23
introduced cross-promotional
21:25  James
feed drops.
21:26
Oh yes.
21:26
Which mark is very
21:26
proud of that.
21:29
and that's very clever because
21:29
it's enabling you to, put a
21:33
drop throughout your entire
21:33
network of a new show that
21:37
perhaps you're launching
21:37
and that sort of thing.
21:39
you've probably heard
21:39
that through Wondery and
21:41
other large companies.
21:42
Now you can do that
21:42
with captivate as well.
21:45
And I know that they are working
21:45
on analytics around that too.
21:49
So you can actually see how
21:49
well that is going for you.
21:53
So there's some really
21:53
interesting stuff going on
21:56
there, and I'm a, it's a
21:56
company which I'm proud to
21:59
occasionally take part in
21:59
and advisor meetings for.
22:03
And it's, it is a very
22:03
occasionally no, but you
22:05
can really see that's a
22:05
company which understands
22:08
what podcast is want.
22:10
That
22:10  Sam
was another
22:10
form of discovery.
22:12
And I think as we'll hear
22:12
from me, Terra shortly,
22:15
one of the things is he's
22:15
looking for all the apps to
22:18
start to add more features.
22:20
One of the features I'd love is
22:20
what captivates done is for all
22:23
the other podcasts companies to
22:23
push their credits up into pod
22:28
chaser, just making it a simpler
22:28
way that we can all be, then
22:31
be discovered across multiple
22:31
other podcasts that we do.
22:34
That'd
22:35  James
be nice.
22:35
Yeah, I agree.
22:36
Yeah.
22:37
What I would like to see is
22:37
that the podcast person tag,
22:41
which is how you put credits
22:41
into the RSS feed, I would like
22:45
to see that being implemented
22:45
by these podcast hosts as well.
22:49
because I'm sure that
22:49
pod chaser a lovely.
22:51
But, one com one company,
22:51
one point of failure
22:55
is a concern to me.
22:57
So if there's a way of pulling
22:57
that credit's information
23:00
out of the RSS feed as well,
23:00
then I think that's probably
23:04
where we should be going.
23:05
And again, that's podcast
23:05
taxonomy compatible, and so
23:09
it's well worth having a look.
23:11  Sam
Okay.
23:12
Another discovery that
23:12
you wrote about or is
23:15
entail is also added away.
23:17
To follow people, as well as
23:17
films and TV shows discuss
23:20
within a podcast it's driven by
23:20
their proprietary AI technology.
23:25
So Hannah Blake
23:25
wrote about this.
23:26
She said, we've released
23:26
another feature.
23:28
That's transforming
23:28
podcast discovery.
23:31
You can follow people,
23:31
films and TVs, as I just
23:33
said, within the podcast.
23:34
And then you'll be
23:34
notified whenever they
23:37
feature in new episodes.
23:39
So again, nice.
23:40
If you can list people or that
23:40
you want to know more about
23:44
and you discover what else.
23:45  James
The difference here is
23:45
the entail is using its own
23:47
AI technology, which of course
23:47
means that you can then follow
23:53
any mention of that person
23:53
or that thing in any podcast,
23:58
which is listed in entail.
24:00
So it doesn't have to rely
24:00
on an individual human being
24:03
to put that information in.
24:05
And that's particularly useful
24:05
for, obviously films and
24:08
TV shows, but also frankly,
24:08
for brands who would really
24:12
like to know what people are
24:12
saying about them on podcast.
24:15  Sam
Now, continuing the
24:15
theme of discovery, which I
24:18
am, Buzzsprout our sponsors
24:18
and our good friends.
24:21
they have basically
24:21
taken on board.
24:25
I think we discussed
24:25
this many months ago.
24:27
Actually.
24:28
You mentioned it being able to
24:28
put a specific timestamp in a
24:31
podcast episode and share it.
24:34
That's
24:34  James
great, isn't it?
24:34
Yeah.
24:35
I think that's
24:35
really good album.
24:36
Brooke gave a demonstration
24:36
of this on the bus sprout
24:39
blog, which you should
24:39
all go and have a look at.
24:41
And he chose this very podcast,
24:41
which was quite a thing.
24:45
So thank you album.
24:46
That's very kind of you and
24:46
yes, what they've done with
24:49
it is that they've used
24:49
the standard T equals at
24:53
the end of the URL, which
24:53
YouTube uses Spotify use it.
24:56
Okay.
24:56
Casts and pod friend also uses.
24:59
And that also works on
24:59
overcast, even though overcast
25:02
has a preferred way that
25:02
they want you to do it.
25:04
Google podcasts of
25:04
course works differently.
25:07
And of course, apple podcasts.
25:08
Doesn't let you do that at all.
25:10
as is usually the way, but,
25:10
being able to share a specific
25:15
timestamp and being able to
25:15
say, go and listen to that.
25:18
From here is a
25:18
really helpful thing.
25:21
And I'm sure that will
25:21
be a useful plan for the
25:23
future to actually share
25:23
stuff on social media.
25:26
Sam, should we talk,
25:26
goods and tech?
25:28  Sam
No, I think we should talk
25:29  James
Evo.
25:30
Terra let's talk Evo Terra.
25:32
You're absolutely correct.
25:33
Evo wrote a really good
25:33
blog post the other
25:37
day and also a podcast.
25:39
He has a great podcast.
25:40
Podcast pontifications and it
25:40
was all about what he wants
25:44
to see from a podcast app.
25:47
So I caught up with Evo
25:47
and firstly, I asked him
25:50
who Evo Terra is and what
25:50
his podcast pontifications
25:54  Evo
Evo.
25:55
Terra is a guy who has been
25:55
podcasting for a very long time.
25:58
Since the beginning of
25:58
time, actually since 2004.
26:02
Since 2016, I focused
26:02
my attention on making a
26:05
podcast for others where
26:05
businesses specific,
26:07
basically my mission in life.
26:09
Now, here we are in 2021,
26:09
recording this as you know
26:12
is to make podcasting better.
26:15
And that's where the whole
26:15
impetus behind podcast.
26:17
Pontifications a daily
26:17
short form podcast
26:20
where I talk about ways.
26:21
Working podcasters can make
26:23  James
podcasting better.
26:24
That's great.
26:25
It gives you something to
26:25
think about when working on
26:27
a podcast and you spoke about
26:27
podcast apps the other day, you
26:31
reckon that there's a problem
26:31
with some of the big apps.
26:33  Evo
I reckon there's a
26:33
problem with every app.
26:35
I haven't been happy with
26:35
podcast apps for a very.
26:40
Long time.
26:41
And I think it's finally
26:41
time that we collectively
26:45
do something about it and
26:45
regime change begins with me.
26:49
So I'm on a mission to
26:49
try and find, or at least
26:52
make podcast apps better
26:54  James
as well.
26:54
I miss the simple days
26:54
of iPod personally,
26:58  Evo
I Potter X.
26:59
Yeah.
26:59
Race like Kinski and a few
27:01  James
others.
27:01
Yeah.
27:01
Yeah.
27:01
I Potter X.
27:02
I apologize.
27:03
Yes.
27:03
I forgot the expert.
27:05
You're recommending that people
27:05
go and try some new apps.
27:10
So why are you saying that?
27:12  Evo
Look, the choices
27:12
from podcast apps have been
27:14
stagnant for a long time.
27:17
And we have the big ones
27:17
that people tend to use.
27:19
Like most people like to use
27:19
for their iPhones, at least
27:22
the apple podcast app, because
27:22
there's default it's, what's on
27:25
your phone for the last three
27:25
years, Spotify has been doing
27:28
everything they can to get us to
27:28
migrate to the Spotify system.
27:32
And now we have Amazon out
27:32
there and then we have a slew
27:35
of podcast apps that have been
27:35
around since the beginning.
27:37
not necessarily the
27:37
beginning, but have become
27:38
staples podcast ads.
27:41
Overcast and a slew of others.
27:43
And they all do the basic
27:43
job of giving you access to
27:48
podcasts roughly the same.
27:51
But then they stopped
27:51
doing that and they each
27:55
have their own different
27:55
things that they do well.
27:57
And some of them do better
27:57
than others, but there are
28:00
some missing pieces I think,
28:00
in, in what these apps should
28:04
be doing for podcasters.
28:05
And it's when I found
28:05
James is really hard.
28:09
To get podcast app
28:09
developers to actually.
28:12
Use their app and get into
28:12
it and really understand
28:17
how it is that podcasters
28:17
and podcasts listeners
28:20
want to consume content.
28:22  James
That's interesting.
28:22
you say you've got a list
28:22
of must haves for podcasts,
28:25
listening apps that none of
28:25
them are doing right now.
28:28
None of them
28:29  Evo
wow.
28:30
Doing all four of them.
28:31
So I have things that I
28:31
want podcast apps to do,
28:36
and some of them do some
28:36
of them, but none of them.
28:40
All of them, shall I run through
28:40
my list of four to why not?
28:44
number one, I want to be able
28:44
to create show level cues or
28:50
lists or groupings or stations,
28:50
whatever you want to call them.
28:54
Now, the reality is a lot of
28:54
the podcast apps out there
28:58
do that, but when looking at
28:58
the new podcasts, The ones
29:03
that are being pimped out
29:03
by the podcasting 2.0 folks
29:06
that are enabling value for
29:06
value and lots of other fun
29:07
things, you'd be amazed.
29:09
How many of them don't
29:09
allow that to happen?
29:12
They'll let you queue up
29:12
individual episodes, but they
29:15
will not let you break down
29:15
the podcast you subscribed to
29:18
and group them into individual
29:18
queues so that if you're
29:21
in the mood to listen to
29:21
long form audio dramas, you
29:24
don't have to be interrupted
29:24
by somebody every day.
29:27
Putting out around three
29:27
minutes worth of really
29:29
cool podcast tech.
29:31
for example.
29:33  James
So that's number one.
29:34
Yeah.
29:35  Evo
Number two.
29:36
Let's talk about those cues.
29:37
I would like for one very
29:37
specific cue to be developed
29:41
and that very specific cue
29:41
is I'm calling most recent.
29:46
If you will.
29:47
And here's why I want that.
29:48
James, you and I
29:48
produced daily podcasts.
29:52
The number of daily podcasts
29:52
out there has skyrocketed
29:55
in the last few years.
29:57
Now, I don't know about you,
29:57
but if I go on vacation for
30:00
a few days and I don't pick
30:00
up my daily newspaper and I'm
30:03
gone for a week, I don't go
30:03
back and read the episodes.
30:07
Starting from the day I
30:07
was gone and get caught.
30:10
There's no point in doing that.
30:11
It's news it's information.
30:12
That's no longer relevant to me.
30:14
So I want to most recent, only
30:14
queue that has just that I
30:19
get to decide which podcasts
30:19
which shows go into that queue.
30:23
And then the only thing
30:23
that shows up in there is
30:25
the most recent episode of
30:25
all of those, rather than
30:29
having 16 episodes of.
30:31
For example, a daily podcast
30:31
news story queued up for
30:35
me when I get back from it.
30:37
And I
30:37  James
hear some people
30:37
do binge on pod news.
30:41
How can you possibly do that?
30:43
Then this drive,
30:43
you mad I'm with
30:44  Evo
you as well.
30:45
the nice thing is I just want
30:45
that to be a cue they're there.
30:48
All the episodes are
30:48
still available, right?
30:50
it's not like we're
30:50
removing them and we can't
30:52
access them any longer.
30:53
I just want this one simple
30:53
little cue to say here's
30:57
where you can get caught
30:57
up on the most recent.
30:59
That you specifically
30:59
added to this queue?
31:02
That will be great.
31:02  James
So that's Evo
31:02
second commandment.
31:04
What's your third.
31:05  Evo
I want podcast apps to
31:05
respect RSS feeds that are
31:09
serial IIS podcasts that
31:09
are designed to be listened
31:13
to from the beginning,
31:13
not the most recent.
31:17
you didn't read Michelle Obama's
31:17
last book from the last chapter.
31:21
You didn't start on that last
31:21
chapter and you certainly
31:24
didn't watch the 10th
31:24
episode of Ted lasso before
31:27
you watched the episodes
31:27
one through nine, right?
31:29
It makes no sense
31:29
to do it that way.
31:31
Every reasonable person
31:31
accessing a serialized
31:34
podcast wants to listen to
31:34
the first episode first.
31:38
So why not podcast apps
31:38
present that to people?
31:41
I did a little research on
31:41
this, James right now, there
31:44
are about 42 thousands.
31:46
Podcasts that are tagged as
31:46
cereal and in most podcasts
31:52
listening apps and in almost
31:52
all of the, if you will, not
31:56
the big ones and all of the new
31:56
podcast apps, none of them are
32:00
flipping the feeds and showing
32:00
it from the first one first,
32:03
weirdly enough, apple, Spotify,
32:03
and Amazon actually do this.
32:07
It's just hard to
32:07
find the settings,
32:09  James
Come on with number four,
32:10  Evo
I have beat this horse
32:10
for a long time and I'm going
32:12
to keep on beating it as well.
32:14
Thanks to the amazing work of
32:14
the people at podcast index.
32:17
We now have a transcript
32:17
tag which goes in our feeds.
32:22
Wouldn't it be great.
32:23
If that transcript, which is
32:23
SRT and timestamp to nicely put
32:28
right there on the player, on
32:28
the phone or on the web app,
32:31
the actual transcript, as the
32:31
words are being spoken, all of
32:35
the info is there timestamps,
32:35
text, everything, just display
32:40
it the same way it works on
32:40
YouTube, close captions, or even
32:44
those are no television shows.
32:47
We are ready in
32:47
our podcast apps.
32:49
So that's it just those four
32:49
things and I'll switch to your
32:52
app and I'll evangelize it to
32:53  James
the end of time.
32:54
And this is one of the things
32:54
that I keep on talking to
32:56
the folks at Google podcasts
32:56
about they already have the
32:59
technology to add, not just
32:59
take the podcast transcripts,
33:03
tag from somebody's podcast,
33:03
but also add transcripts.
33:07
Everyone's podcast, it's
33:07
built into Android phones and
33:11
I'm there going, why don't
33:11
you build this into your
33:14
app specifically so that you
33:14
can go out and say, it's the
33:18
only app with transcripts for
33:18
every single show out there.
33:22
And they they look at
33:22
me and they go, yep.
33:25
It's really
33:25  Evo
frustrating.
33:26
It's almost like you need
33:26
to say Google podcasts.
33:28
There's this other
33:28
app called YouTube.
33:30
Maybe you've heard of it.
33:32
It actually will do that.
33:34
That very same thing.
33:35
I'm talking about.
33:36
YouTube can with a click
33:36
of a button automatically
33:38
and transcripts to
33:38
every single video.
33:40
So I think that alphabet, the
33:40
parent company has a technology.
33:44
Can you share
33:45  James
that seems okay.
33:46
To me that I get frustrated at
33:46
with podcast apps is I look at
33:50
some of the individual apps.
33:52
Yeah.
33:53
There's a lot of work put into
33:53
some of the UI, but the actual
33:57
player has no work put into it.
34:00
And one of the things that
34:00
I like about PocketCasts and
34:04
frankly like about Google
34:04
podcasts is the smart speed.
34:09
So it gets rid of the
34:09
gaps and stuff like that.
34:11
It's not called Smartspeed
34:11
cause that's an overcast
34:14
registered trademark.
34:15
yup.
34:15
And what a pocket cast also
34:15
has is something that it
34:18
doesn't call voice boost.
34:20
Cause that's another
34:20
one of Marco's.
34:21
but it's something that makes
34:21
everything a little bit louder.
34:24
There are some shows out there,
34:24
not this one, I hope, but there
34:26
are some shows out there where
34:26
you're interviewing somebody
34:29
or somebody at the other end
34:29
of a phone line somewhere.
34:32
And the other person is really.
34:34
And the interviewer is
34:34
really loud and it's really
34:36
hard to listen to it.
34:38
It surprises me that things
34:38
like Smartspeed that voice
34:41
boost or whatever, the generic
34:41
terms for both of those things.
34:45
Haven't been productized
34:45
into a bunch of, Android or
34:50
iOS, player, SDKs quite yet.
34:53
I'm
34:53  Evo
with you on both
34:53
of those things, I think
34:54
some responsibility lies
34:54
on the host themselves.
34:58
Who've Evers assembling
34:58
this show produced show.
35:01
But I also think, especially
35:01
for the idea of, let's just
35:04
call it, normalizing the volume
35:04
and getting everything to
35:07
a nice 16 minus 16 lumps or
35:07
whatever standard we're using.
35:10
I like minus 16 laps.
35:12
And I think a lot of
35:12
that could be happening
35:13
on the hosting side.
35:14
Yes.
35:15
If in fact we were
35:15
uploading wave files, which.
35:18
Podcast hosting
35:18
companies aren't 19.
35:21
And come to mind.
35:22
We'll allow you to upload a
35:22
wave file and we'll whoosh.
35:25
I know for a fact automatically
35:25
normalize the tracks.
35:28
If you click a little box to
35:28
do that and get it all nice and
35:31
sunny, it'll send out MP3 files.
35:33
And then I know other
35:33
alternate enclosures as well
35:35
for much smaller things.
35:37
So a lot of that can
35:37
be happening during the
35:38
time of creation, but
35:38
I am totally with you.
35:41
I use overcast more than
35:41
anything else for that
35:44
voice boost feature, because
35:44
when I'm driving in my car,
35:48
There is road noise and
35:48
road noise, significantly
35:51
interferes with podcasters.
35:53
Who've decided to let some
35:53
dynamic range creativity
35:57
run free on their episodes.
35:59
And which basically means I
35:59
can't hear the dialogue, which
36:01
I think is important to do
36:01
so I do love that feature.
36:03
And yes.
36:05
For must haves.
36:05
I think there are some
36:05
table stakes that everyone
36:08
should do just because
36:08
it's the right thing to do.
36:11
Getting voices normalized,
36:11
allowing people to adjust
36:14
the speeds back and forth.
36:15
Yes.
36:16
All of these things are certain
36:16
necessary to do, to make a real
36:19
podcast app worthy of promoting.
36:21
In
36:21  James
20, 21, or we have a
36:21
fine sponsor of Buzzsprout,
36:24
Buzzsprout have a service called
36:24
magic mastering, which does
36:27
much the same sort of thing.
36:28
You can upload away a fight if
36:28
you like to buy a sprout and it
36:31
will remaster that and sort out
36:31
the dynamics for you and make
36:34
that into a lovely MP3 file.
36:36
If that's what you want.
36:38
What have you tried so far then?
36:40
Eva, what's the one that
36:40
you're using the most.
36:42
It sounds as if it's overcast,
36:42
but that's not got all
36:44
of the features in there.
36:45
What else have you found?
36:46
That's good.
36:47  Evo
So I've been, I spent
36:47
most of last weekend playing
36:49
around with three new.
36:51
Podcast apps from new podcast
36:51
apps.com to plug that little
36:55
free service, which details
36:55
out the new podcast apps
36:58  James
boost button.
36:59
Now yes.
36:59
Hit the boost.
37:00  Evo
Yes.
37:01
so fountain and pod verse and
37:01
pod friend are the three that
37:07
I'm playing with most right now.
37:10
And I've spoken with the
37:10
developers in all of those
37:14
and they all love what I have
37:14
to say, but they also say.
37:18
We are working either
37:18
on a shoestring budget
37:22
or we're or no, or a
37:22
virtual shoestring budget.
37:24
We are, we're totally
37:24
out of shoestrings.
37:26
or it's, we've got
37:26
a laundry list.
37:28
That's a mile long as
37:28
we're trying to get to.
37:30
So it's a nice to
37:30
have just be happy.
37:32
We're making what we're
37:32
doing right now and I get
37:35
it and I am happy with what
37:35
they're doing right now.
37:37
I just want to encourage
37:37
them to do more.
37:39  James
Yeah.
37:39
And I wonder whether
37:39
there is something there.
37:41
Maybe taking, an open source
37:41
app and getting a little bit
37:45
of resource into it to actually
37:45
make the podcast as podcast app.
37:49
Maybe that's a plan
37:49
for the future.
37:51
Although, maybe that's about it.
37:52
Who
37:52  Evo
knows what they could
37:52
do rather than trying to play
37:55
the let's do everything game.
37:56
I think another great angle
37:56
would be let's focus on
37:59
a particular underserved.
38:01
Portion of the
38:01
listening audience.
38:03
who's not getting what they
38:03
need out of the current
38:06
podcast, listening apps.
38:07
I think it's not a crazy idea
38:07
to think someone will come
38:09
along and build a podcast
38:09
listening app that doesn't
38:12
have 4 million podcasts in
38:12
it, but is only designed
38:16
to, for example, listen to.
38:19
Sports-related podcasts, but
38:19
maybe there's a special way.
38:22
Sports podcasts, listeners want
38:22
to consume their content grouped
38:26
by teams or sporting types or
38:26
various weird things like that.
38:30
W I think we're to the
38:30
size now where rather than
38:33
trying to get everyone,
38:33
everybody together, maybe
38:36
we just make hyper-focused.
38:37
These are the things
38:37
that this does, and if
38:39
you really want the best
38:39
possible experience in this.
38:42
What we've built.
38:43
We've got an app that does just
38:45  James
that podcast.
38:46
Pontifications is in all
38:46
good podcasting apps and
38:49
quite a few bad ones, too.
38:50
Evo.
38:51
Thank you so much for your time.
38:52  Evo
Thank you very much
38:52
for your time, James.
38:53
And don't forget
38:53
that, that boost
38:55  Sam
button . I have to
38:55
say those for a wishlist,
38:59
is what he's asking.
39:01
Very useful.
39:02
what, the most recent
39:02
transcripts individual cues,
39:05
I mean that, they're all
39:05
things that, that we want.
39:08
And it, what it got me thinking
39:08
about is, again, with all
39:12
the other features that we've
39:12
just discussed as well, with
39:14
captivate, pushing to pod
39:14
chaser with entail, doing
39:18
discovery is that we're in a.
39:22
I want to call it a podcast
39:22
wars because before I explain
39:26
that somebody this week,
39:26
and I know we're coming to
39:28
boost the Graham quarter, but
39:28
he, whoever you are, mark,
39:31
please reveal your surname.
39:33
Come hoping you're
39:33
not mark Cuban.
39:35
You said something
39:35
that absolutely the
39:37
penny dropped for me.
39:39
You described apple
39:39
podcasts as the new internet
39:42
Explorer of podcast players.
39:44
And it, the minute
39:44
you said that I do.
39:47
Yep.
39:48
That is exactly what they are.
39:50
I was with Netscape
39:50
during the podcast wars.
39:52
I was the European product
39:52
manager for communicator.
39:55
What we were fighting, what
39:55
were for new standards?
39:58
We were fighting for
39:58
new versions of HTML.
40:00
We were fighting to push
40:00
the browser forward and
40:04
Microsoft with IAE where
40:04
the dominant incumbent, who
40:07
just drag their knuckles
40:07
didn't do anything, came up
40:10
with predatory standards.
40:12
Do you remember active ex
40:13  James
James?
40:14
Oh yes.
40:15
Active
40:15  Sam
ex.
40:16
Yeah.
40:16
And they had so many, any
40:16
ways that they try to kill
40:20
the industry or turn it into
40:20
an internal wall garden.
40:24
Apple, I'm sorry.
40:25
You are the new
40:25
internet Explorer.
40:28
And I think.
40:30
I think that's the title
40:30
they need to take in.
40:32
I try to make friends
40:32
with apple, but they never
40:35
get to sponsor as James
40:35
is to the way he both,
40:37  James
they're never
40:37
going to sponsor anything.
40:39
that's not how it work.
40:40  Sam
Yeah, exactly.
40:41
But I think what the funniest
40:41
thing for me is somebody
40:44
who was really heavily
40:44
involved in that timeframe.
40:47
Microsoft now use chromium as
40:47
the basis for their browser.
40:53
Yeah.
40:54
Yeah.
40:54
They've gone full circle.
40:56
Yeah.
40:56
And I hope that maybe apple,
40:56
one day we'll actually start
41:00
to look at the podcast index
41:00
tutor, own namespace and
41:03
start to say, yeah, actually.
41:05
The industry's
41:05
working around that.
41:07
And maybe we need to adopt it.
41:09
I dunno where Spotify fits
41:09
in all this, by the way.
41:12
Cause I can't come up with a
41:12
good analogy to what browser
41:15
they would have been, but
41:15
they're certainly not Netscape
41:17  James
that's for certain yeah.
41:18
Cello.
41:20
Yes.
41:20
I think there you go.
41:21
that's showing my age.
41:23
Yeah, no, I agree.
41:24
I think that the podcast names.
41:28
Is something that people
41:28
should be particularly apple
41:32
and Google should be looking
41:32
into very seriously, because
41:36
I think there's a bunch of
41:36
very useful things for Apple's
41:41
current issues with not
41:41
updating shows properly and
41:44
all of that kind of stuff.
41:46
There's a bunch of useful
41:46
tools that can be built in
41:49
to help all of that work.
41:50
So I'm surprised that
41:50
they haven't been doing,
41:53
more looking into that.
41:55  Sam
Going back to evoke terror.
41:56
So what he's saying is that
41:56
lots of smaller apps are
42:00
beginning to put tools like
42:00
chapters, and as we've seen,
42:04
credits and people support.
42:06
Is there going to be one of
42:06
those that steps forward you
42:10
think, is there a potential
42:10
winner out of that's coming
42:12
out or is it too early
42:12
to see as an alternative
42:15  James
client?
42:16
Oh, I think it's very difficult
42:16
to see and I, my hope and
42:20
my hope has always been
42:20
that PocketCasts or someone
42:23
similar overcast, maybe,
42:23
although that won't happen.
42:27
Grabs the opportunities
42:27
given to them by the new
42:31
podcast, namespace with
42:31
both hands and goes away and
42:35
makes the best podcast app
42:35
that deals with all of the
42:39
new podcast namespace tags.
42:42
To me, that would be the
42:42
differentiator between pocket
42:45
casts and the incumbent.
42:47
The Google, the
42:47
Spotify and the apple.
42:50
And I think that would be
42:50
the absolute right choice
42:53
for Russell and for, Phil,
42:53
I think it is to end up
42:57
doing, obviously I'm not the
42:57
product manager and by all
43:02
accounts, it's not been a fun
43:02
18 months at the pocket costs.
43:06
folks, I'm sure that they've
43:06
got a bunch of tech debt
43:08
that they need to fix first.
43:10
but that would be my ideal.
43:12
Now, the other
43:13  Sam
thing that came
43:13
out of, listening to.
43:15
Was, he was just something
43:15
that he was saying
43:18
all the way through.
43:18
And you said something as well
43:18
about boost grams as well.
43:22
You Chub's client actually
43:22
is really where I think
43:25
a lot of podcast clients
43:25
might want to have a look
43:29
at the timestamp things now,
43:29
just beginning to come in.
43:32
So if you take bus
43:32
sprout, cause we.
43:34
We use that a lot.
43:36
So fundamentally that timestamp
43:36
thing, which has been in YouTube
43:40
forever and a day, the sharing
43:40
capability, but they've got
43:43
comments, but the one that it's
43:43
most interesting in YouTube,
43:47
if you follow any of the, I
43:47
know football ones that I do,
43:50
you've got this thing called
43:50
super follows and which I think
43:53
are really interesting and
43:53
very similar to boost to grams.
43:57
But they're done more
43:57
often with live streams
43:59
where you can actually
43:59
pay $5, $10 or whatever,
44:02
and it is cash amounts.
44:04
but then the host will see
44:04
that and it'll highlight up in
44:07
the comments very differently.
44:09
And then they can
44:09
read that comment out.
44:11
They ignore the rest of
44:11
the comments by the way.
44:13
So the stream could be flying
44:13
through and they'll only
44:16
look at the super follows.
44:18
I wonder where the, in a real
44:18
world environment where you
44:23
let's say we did this podcast
44:23
live via a client where the
44:27
Brewster grams would be that as
44:29  James
well.
44:29
Yeah.
44:29
I don't think there's anything
44:29
to stop booster grams.
44:32
the way that the whole thing
44:32
has been built, there's
44:34
nothing necessarily to stop
44:34
them from using fierce,
44:37
from using real currency.
44:39
but.
44:39
I'm also very aware that
44:39
actually the benefit of using
44:43
the cryptocurrency stuff
44:43
is that it means that it's
44:46
completely de-centralized
44:46
and no one is in charge.
44:49
And we've just seen all of
44:49
that kerfuffle with only fans
44:54
that is kerfuffle, which has
44:54
been driven by MasterCard who
44:59
have turned around and said,
44:59
we don't want people paying
45:02
for smart, with MasterCard.
45:05
Thank you very much.
45:05
Could you please stop the smart.
45:08
I think, that,
45:08
that's the concern.
45:10
I think I put quite apart from
45:10
the individual cost of, taking
45:14
a credit card payment, that's
45:14
the main concern that many
45:19
people in podcasting should
45:19
have of, just making sure
45:22
that this is a open thing,
45:22
but I do wonder sometimes.
45:26
I've started talking with a
45:26
few people about, booster grams
45:29
being internet tokens, and
45:29
you buy internet tokens and
45:34
you give them to other people.
45:35
And that's really what a sat is.
45:38
Yes.
45:38
You can turn it into cash.
45:39
Yes.
45:39
It's actually a Bitcoin.
45:40
Yes, it's cryptocurrency.
45:42
But at the end of the day,
45:42
it's an internet token.
45:44
It's the same as a
45:44
fairground token.
45:46
When you go into the, when
45:46
you go to the fair or,
45:48
any of that sort of thing.
45:50
And I think if we think about
45:50
it in that way, it becomes
45:52
far less scary and some people
45:52
may choose to cash them in.
45:56
Some people may just
45:56
choose to hold them.
45:58
And that's fine too.
45:59
Yeah.
45:59
It's a
45:59  Sam
micro payment system.
46:01
We've wanted for a
46:01
while on the internet.
46:03
In fact, yeah.
46:04
I remember listening
46:04
to Marc Andreessen.
46:06
Talk about the one thing he
46:06
wished he did creative when he
46:09
first created Netscape browser
46:09
was a micropayment system.
46:13
You said that was the one
46:13
thing they wished they'd done.
46:15
And I know Facebook tried
46:15
recently and failed abysmally
46:18
with their micropayment
46:18
systems, cause no one
46:20
trusts mark Zuckerberg.
46:22
and that's why I think
46:22
a lot of that failed.
46:24
But it's the, I think the
46:24
problem is it simple enough?
46:27
You've implemented it.
46:28
How easy is it to
46:29  James
implement hideously
46:29
complicated at the moment,
46:33
but it is much easier now
46:33
than it was three months ago.
46:37
And that's the point?
46:38
I think it's very quickly
46:38
beginning to be easier.
46:42
this isn't iPod X, as
46:42
we were talking about
46:45
with Eva, it's not.
46:47
I was, trying to tell somebody
46:47
the other day about, it
46:51
was listening from Norway
46:51
and he wants to help this
46:55
show and her downloaded
46:55
fountain and found the whole
46:58
thing really complicated.
47:00
And I said, you're
47:00
probably not young enough.
47:02
To have been playing around with
47:02
your copy of windows 3.1 and
47:07
try to configure your wind sock.
47:10
but you'll remember configuring
47:10
wind sock and everything else
47:13
so that you could actually
47:13
get onto the internet, and
47:15
all these kinds of weird
47:15
and wonderful stuff and how
47:18
complicated all of that was.
47:19
And now it's super easy and
47:19
it's built into everything.
47:22
I think that's basically
47:22
where we are at the moment.
47:25
And I think.
47:26
Anything that makes
47:26
life easier and simpler.
47:29
We'll come and we'll
47:29
come very quickly.
47:31
And certainly it's far easier.
47:33
Now then, as I say, than it
47:33
was three months or so ago
47:37
to set up value for value
47:37
and to start accepting Sam.
47:41
So
47:42  Sam
talking of,
47:42
value for value.
47:44
Have we had any
47:45  James
boosts this week?
47:46
yes, let's play.
47:48
Adam's very exciting.
47:49
Very top 40 booster
47:49
Graham corner jingle.
47:52
Now it's
47:52  Evo
time for the
47:53  James
boost
47:54  Sam
to Graham corner.
47:56  James
It's too much.
47:57
And we've got a number of
47:57
different messages here.
48:00
Mary Oscar from
48:00
fountain 769 SATs.
48:03
It says here, although that
48:03
might not be what Mary Oscar
48:05
thought he was paying, because
48:05
of the way that these things
48:08
work, I should just point out.
48:10
But anyway, Mary says, or
48:10
Oscar says another great
48:13
episode looking forward to
48:13
coming on in a few weeks time.
48:16
Oh yes.
48:16
Oscar's coming on
48:16
in a few weeks time.
48:18
Isn't it?
48:18
A fountain.
48:19
So that should be good.
48:20
He is excellent.
48:21
Dave Jackson, the
48:21
podcast has podcaster.
48:24
he, very kindly sent us a 500
48:24
SATs or so with a fountain.
48:29
He says, keep up the great work.
48:30
Thank you.
48:31
Dave.
48:31
Dave has put together a brand
48:31
new podcast called leading the
48:35
bleeding, which is essentially
48:35
Dave, trying to understand
48:38
how all of this stuff works.
48:40
And, working to enable his
48:40
podcasts as value for value.
48:45
He's going to turn that
48:45
whole experience into a
48:47
podcast, which is really good.
48:49
And, it should be well
48:49
worth having a listen to,
48:52
that is available now in
48:52
all good podcast apps.
48:54
And in Spotify,
48:55  Sam
Nick says he
48:55
loves pod land.
48:57
Thank you, Nick.
48:58
Add he sent us 990 stats.
49:00
I knew he was using fountain.
49:02
I think that may be
49:02  James
fountains.
49:03
Yeah.
49:03
Ah, maybe who
49:05  Sam
knows.
49:05
and Dave said, thanks
49:05
for the kind words SAB.
49:08
You're the host of
49:08
the football podcast.
49:10
You can't let an Australian
49:10
guy with a raspberry PI school,
49:13
your base styles, yellow card.
49:16
Thank you, Dave.
49:18
Thank you so much.
49:19
He said just 20,903 stats.
49:21
And again, using fountain.
49:22
Yeah.
49:23  James
20,000 SaaS
49:23
is a lot as well.
49:25
Dave, thank you
49:25
very much for that.
49:26
That's a very kind that's that?
49:28
That is probably.
49:29
Another beer that
49:29
I can school Mr.
49:33
Sethi on when I can finally
49:33
get over to the UK in 2025.
49:37
Assuming of course that you
49:37
actually have any pubs left or
49:39
indeed any food available in
49:39
your country, which appears to
49:42
be falling apart as we speak.
49:45
Yeah.
49:45  Sam
Anyway.
49:46
Yeah, we might end up
49:46
just having to grow what
49:48
we can find in fields.
49:50
So yes, that's it.
49:52  James
it's quite a thing.
49:53
And Adam.
49:55
I it has, I think, sent
49:55
you a message here.
49:57
4,900 sites through Curio Casta.
50:00
Thank you, Adam.
50:01
What does Adam said here?
50:02  Sam
Thank you for
50:02
considering the podcast
50:05
index with your academy fees.
50:07
Yes, I would.
50:08
I'd rather pay you Adam,
50:08
that I would pay the academy.
50:11  James
I'm sorry.
50:12
I think he's not looking for a
50:12
promise if I'd rather pay you.
50:15
I think he's looking
50:15
for some money.
50:18
Maybe we might.
50:18
Okay.
50:19
Maybe we might send them over.
50:21  Sam
So yeah, they're great.
50:22
You know what they are
50:22
great because it does
50:25
what you just said, James.
50:26
It just allows us to know that
50:26
people are listening and what
50:29
they think of what we say.
50:30  James
Indeed.
50:31
No, I think it's a
50:31
really good thing.
50:32
And I think the easier that
50:32
we can make it, the more
50:35
satisfactory it will be for
50:35
anybody that is doing a podcast.
50:39  Sam
Yeah.
50:39
And I fully agree
50:39
with your comment.
50:41
I think it will be, hidden into
50:41
apps and made very simple way.
50:45
You take fear
50:45
currency converted to.
50:47
Token SATs.
50:49
And then you can just use
50:49
them where you want your data.
50:51
It'll be a good model.
50:53
Lastly, Buzzsprout
50:53
going back to them.
50:56
boss sprout has now
50:56
included the podcast guru
50:59
ID into the RSS feeds what
50:59
a Gilead's again, just
51:02  James
remind me, ah, this
51:02
is a, it's a standard way
51:05
of an ID for your podcast.
51:07
It stays with your podcast.
51:09
Whatever you use.
51:10
So if you shift from, and
51:10
they've seen to, and then maybe
51:14
you shift to captivate and then
51:14
sprout, obviously, cause bus
51:17
parrots are brilliant and then
51:17
you're good will never change.
51:20
And that means that you can
51:20
link to your podcast in a
51:23
standard way, which means
51:23
that no one is in charge
51:26
of that ID at the moment.
51:28
We're all using apple
51:28
ID numbers and those are
51:31
not particularly helpful.
51:32
it's a great thing to see.
51:34
Buzzsprout.
51:35
Are now doing Google ads,
51:35
fully in their system.
51:38
And I look forward to
51:38
more podcasts companies
51:41
doing that too.
51:42
I wonder if apple
51:42  Sam
Explorer will
51:42
ever change now, apple
51:45  James
Explorer.
51:46
Ouch.
51:48  Sam
Oh, I sell you.
51:49
Mark has given me so much hope
51:49
with his little statement.
51:53
Aye.
51:54
Aye.
51:54
On the basis that I
51:54
deleted by apple podcast,
51:57
player, client, wow.
51:59
It's gone.
52:00
Gosh.
52:00  James
Yeah, that's a
52:00
thing I'm going to use
52:01  Sam
it until next
52:01
week when I have to.
52:03
Cause there's a feature,
52:03
I'll leave test it, but
52:05
then that'll be that now,
52:05
lastly, and it feels like
52:09
we are beating them up, but
52:09
apple podcast download bug.
52:12
it, again, it seems to
52:12
be raising its head.
52:16
Is there anything else that's
52:16
been said about, I think Triton
52:18
digital had some data about it.
52:20
Triton,
52:20  James
it's been basically
52:20
saying with all of the
52:22
podcasts rankers that they
52:22
produce, is there's been
52:25
a significant drop in the
52:25
amount of podcasts downloads
52:28
if you compare may to July.
52:31
so in the middle of June was
52:31
where, people were transitioning
52:34
over to the new apple podcasts.
52:36
And if you compare may to
52:36
July, it's down on average by,
52:40
somewhere in the region of.
52:41
A percent or so, which, backs
52:41
up the random number that
52:44
I came up with earlier on.
52:46
So yeah, you can see that's
52:46
happening, but you can also
52:49
see pod tracker releasing,
52:49
weekly figures, which I don't
52:52
typically report on because
52:52
otherwise that's the only thing
52:55
that I would be doing, but
52:55
they are showing that those
52:57
are beginning to increase it.
53:00
As the fix has, has rolled out.
53:02
good on apple for fixing
53:02
that and for rolling it out.
53:05
I'm sure, there are lots of
53:05
things that we can criticize
53:08
them for, but I think, they
53:08
did act, relatively fast once
53:11
they knew that there was a.
53:13
Okay.
53:13
A few things coming up,
53:13
which might be useful to know
53:16
about the Australian podcast
53:16
awards is back for 2021.
53:20
I'm a director of the
53:20
company this year.
53:21
It features a total
53:21
of 31 award entries.
53:25
You should take part it's
53:25
really robustly, judged.
53:29
Proud of it.
53:29
well-worth going to, take a
53:29
peek just to a Google search
53:33
for Australian podcast awards.
53:35
There's also the New
53:35
Zealand podcast awards.
53:37
If you're a Kiwi and you say
53:37
the word dairy a lot, the
53:40
deadline for nominations for
53:40
that is September the first.
53:43
So get a move on and the IAB
53:43
has announced the final agenda
53:47
for the IEB podcast upfront.
53:49
Which is happening in New York,
53:49
actually in New York, between
53:53
September the ninth and 10th.
53:55
it's something that allows
53:55
media buyers to preview new
53:57
shows, coming from podcast
53:57
publishers and new ad tech tools
54:00
to, don't see if you can go
54:00
because it's invite only, but
54:03
it's a good thing to take part
54:03
in if you have been invited.
54:07
And finally there is the
54:07
international women's
54:09
podcast awards, which
54:09
sure has been announced as
54:11
the headline partner of a
54:11
that's already been judged.
54:14
I understand the
54:14
ceremony is in line.
54:17
On September the 23rd.
54:19
Excellent.
54:20  Sam
I always thought the only
54:20
way to tell the difference
54:21
between Kiwis and Aussies was to
54:21
ask them to say fish and chips,
54:25  James
fashion shops.
54:26
yes, there is that.
54:27
Or, yes, they call a
54:27
corner, shop a dairy,
54:31
which is very strange.
54:32
And, yes, there a strange,
54:32
one of the clubhouse rooms
54:38
that I occasionally jump into
54:38
is basically run by Kiwis.
54:41
And it's great fun to jump in
54:41
there and hear all of these,
54:44
Americans, gassed at the
54:44
fact that they're talking to
54:46
somebody from New Zealand.
54:48
So it's very interesting.
54:50
It's always a good thing.
54:51  Sam
Did you say clubhouse?
54:53
Sorry, this is 19.
54:54
I did say club's sorry.
54:55
Are we back in
54:55
January 20, 21 again?
54:58  James
No, it's still
54:58
going, I believe.
55:00
so yeah.
55:00
Okay.
55:01
Yeah.
55:02  Sam
Finally then James.
55:03
So what else has happened for
55:03
you in Portland this week?
55:05  James
so I have spent much
55:05
of the week talking to lawyers
55:08
about a news story that,
55:08
we're not mentioning today.
55:11
so that's good.
55:12
It's been a bit of a fraught
55:12
week for, reasons, best knots.
55:15
gone into, Sam, what is
55:15
happening for you in Portland
55:19
over the next few weeks?
55:19  Sam
my wig sounds a
55:19
lot quieter than yours.
55:21
That's for certain, I'm
55:21
interviewing Gary Lineker the,
55:25
famous football on TV pundits.
55:27
Crisp salesman.
55:28
Yes, indeed.
55:29
So that's this week, I just
55:29
interviewed Joe Royal from,
55:32
any Everton fans out there
55:32
would know who he was.
55:35  James
Family.
55:36
Yeah.
55:37
Yeah.
55:38
very funny.
55:39
No,
55:39  Sam
yes, no.
55:41
Unless you read the football,
55:41
it's not a podcast you want to.
55:43  James
Yeah.
55:44
All the Americans listening have
55:44
no concept of what's going on
55:48  Sam
now.
55:49
I'll just say soccer and
55:50  James
there'll be fine.
55:51
And this is for your, this
55:51
is for your English premier
55:53
league soccer podcast, which
55:53