Podland News

The last word in podcasting news. Every Thursday, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from 'Podcast First' River Radio in the UK, review and analyse some of the week's top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. Sponsored by Buzzsprout and SquadCast.

https://podland.news

subscribe
share






episode 42: In our opinion, we need better listener tools - Clips, Comments and Content moderation. Oscar Merry talks about Fountain App, Alex Jacobi talks about the Open Podcast Analytics Format and will Podcasting Kill the Radio Star? [transcript]


Listen to James Cridland and Sam Sethi

GUESTS

  • Oscar Merry - talks about Fountain App (clips, boostergrams and chapters)
  • Alex Jacobi - talks about OPAF (Open Podcast Analytics Format)

 SHOW NOTES 

  • In a client note, Richard Kramer, an analyst from Arete Research has criticised Spotify.

  • Our Editor asked Spotify for all his personal data, to discover Spotify knows what kind of car he drives, and what length podcast he prefers - and why Spotify will never know as much as Apple or Google.

  • Meanwhile, 9to5Mac says Spotify falls short as a podcast app. (Hasn’t stopped it from being #1 in many markets).

  • The number of podcasts in Spanish grew 6.8 times last year, according to iVoox.
     
  • Simplecast founder and CEO Brad Smith has been promoted he’s been named Head of Podcast Products for SiriusXM.

  • "Podcasting Killed the Radio Star" - River Radio, a radio station in the UK, is working with podcast company Whooshkaa to be a “podcast-first radio station”. The station has around twenty subject-focused hour-long shows.

  • Moon lets you transfer sats into a single-use VISA card

  • JustCast now supports value4value and soundbites

EVENTS: 

  • PodFest Origins:  Nov 4-5 at the Amalie Arena in Tampa FL

  • She Podcasts LIVE 2021: Oct 14 - Scottsdale, Arizona

  • Radiodays Europe:   Oct 9-11 - Lisbon, Portugal


share








 2021-09-16  1h11m
 
 
00:01  James
Welcome to Portland.
00:02
The last word in
00:02
podcasting news.
00:04
Portland is sponsored by
00:04
riverside.fm, recording
00:07
podcasts and video interviews
00:07
in studio quality just got
00:11
an upgrade and an iOS app.
00:13
And by Buzzsprout used by
00:13
over 100,000 podcasters
00:17
like us to host, promote
00:17
and track your podcast.
00:20
It's the 16th of September,
00:20
2021 by and James.
00:23
Cridlin the editor of
00:23
pod news.net here in
00:26
Queensland in Australia.
00:27  Sam
The home of the
00:27
Olympics in 2032.
00:30
Yes.
00:31
I'm Sam Sethi, the MD
00:31
of river radio podcast.
00:34
First radio station
00:34
here in the UK.
00:36
My
00:36  Oscar
name is Austin, Mary I'm,
00:36
the CEO of fountain, and I'll be
00:39
on the show later talking about
00:39
the fountain app, creating clips
00:42
from podcasts and supporting.
00:44
On cars street that value
00:44
for value that standard.
00:47
I'm Alex
00:47  Alex
Jacoby from Germany.
00:48
I'm an audio entrepreneur
00:48
and I'm the founder of sonar
00:51
bird IO, a podcast hosting
00:51
and production as software
00:55
as a service company.
00:57
And I'll be on the show today
00:57
to talk about our idea, to
01:00
make podcasts, analytics,
01:00
data portal with the open
01:04
podcast analytics for that.
01:06  James
Gosh, he sounds excited.
01:07
Yes, they will.
01:09
Pod land is a weekly podcast
01:09
where Sam and I delve deeper
01:12
into the week's podcasting news.
01:14
So
01:14  Sam
James let's get on
01:14
with the big stories,
01:16
but we have to go back.
01:18
Last week's first.
01:19  James
Have we upset anybody?
01:21
I think we
01:21  Sam
have not the
01:21
person you should upset.
01:24
Really.
01:24
The pod father himself is really
01:24
upset with us and the pod, bro.
01:28
It'll be decided he's he's the
01:28
Pope bro, or the pod mother
01:31  James
we'll come back to
01:31
that later in booster, ground
01:33
corners, the return of booster
01:33
Graham corner this week.
01:35
But, uh, yeah.
01:36
So what, what happened
01:36
last week and why?
01:39  Sam
Yep.
01:39
So last week we had valley
01:39
virtue after from the Brookings
01:42
institution talking about
01:42
misinformation in podcasts,
01:46
Adam Curry and Dave Jones
01:46
started podcasting two dot oh,
01:50
their wonderful podcast episode
01:50
53, if you're looking for it
01:54
and they went on a 20 minute
01:54
rant about me and do James.
01:58  James
Yes.
01:58
And, and I think
01:58
about Valerie's.
02:00
Um, Sam, where did you grow up?
02:03  Sam
I grew up in the UK in a
02:03
little place called Lufburrow.
02:06
We should
02:06  James
probably stop any
02:06
conversation around governments
02:10
and censorship and everything
02:10
else by just saying that we both
02:13
have grown up in Western Europe.
02:15
And typically you trust
02:15
government in Western Europe,
02:18
they pay for our health care.
02:20
They set rules to keep us safe.
02:22
And I went and did a little
02:22
bit of research with pew
02:24
research and they say that
02:24
50% of people in the UK
02:28
are happy with government.
02:30
And that goes right down to
02:30
35% in the U S and also we have
02:35
different broadcast rules too.
02:37
And those are important as well.
02:40
So what Valerie was talking
02:40
about last time was very much
02:44
talking about misinformation
02:44
in podcasting and there
02:47
being no way to report that.
02:50
Well, here's a little
02:50
clip of Dave and Adam,
02:54
uh, talking about that.
02:55
If you have a problem
02:55
with potentially false
02:57
information on another part,
02:59  Alex
Go start a podcast, play
03:01  James
clips.
03:02
Talk about how wrong.
03:03
Give your opinion to
03:03
counter their opinion.
03:06
It's the way the
03:08  Alex
it's actually
03:08  James
the way, um, people
03:08
are used to working.
03:11
It's the way things
03:11
work in society.
03:14
It's like, I, you know,
03:14
I have an opinion.
03:16
I disagree.
03:16
If someone else couldn't say,
03:16
Hey, he said this and you know,
03:19
it's, it's called discourse.
03:20
It's called.
03:21
Intellectual intercourse.
03:22
And I think that clip highlights
03:22
what I think the confusion is
03:25
here because Dave was talking
03:25
about somebody having an opinion
03:29
and opinions are great, and
03:29
I can have a wrong opinion.
03:33
And, and you say, I'm going
03:33
to have a wrong opinion.
03:36
Occasionally I was going to say
03:36
often, so nobody is stopping
03:39
people, having opinions.
03:41
I think there's always a big
03:41
difference between something
03:44
presented as an opinion and
03:44
something presented as a fact.
03:48
And when I listened to Valerie's
03:48
interview with you last week,
03:52
Sam, she was talking about
03:52
misinformation, something
03:56
that is presented as fact
03:56
that is wrong and harmful
04:00
to others is a bad thing.
04:03
So.
04:04
I think if she was saying, as
04:04
it stands podcast hosts don't
04:09
know that they have harmful
04:09
content on their system.
04:12
And I'm talking deliberately
04:12
about harmful content, not
04:14
a wrong opinion, but harmful
04:14
content because most podcast
04:18
apps give you no way to tell
04:18
a podcast host about it.
04:23
And in fact, most podcast
04:23
apps don't even tell you
04:25
who the podcast host is.
04:27
How do you know whether
04:27
this show is being hosted
04:29
by Buzzsprout or by Libsyn
04:29
or by red circle or by
04:33
captivate or anybody else?
04:35
You know, nobody you can't
04:35
really tell from your
04:38
particular podcast app.
04:40
I think what Valerie was
04:40
talking about was better
04:42
reporting tools so that a
04:42
podcast host knows what stuff
04:45
they have on their platform.
04:46
And if they want to,
04:46
they can take action.
04:48
And if they don't want to
04:48
take action, then that's
04:51
absolutely fine as well.
04:52
Um, but I think that's
04:52
what she was talking about.
04:55
Uh, so, and what did
04:55
you take out of that?
04:58  Sam
Great.
04:58
I love this quote
04:58
opinions are like a holes.
05:01
Everyone has one.
05:03
They just think
05:03
each other's stinks.
05:05
So.
05:05
The idea is that you can
05:05
have an opinion all day long.
05:09
What we're saying, James is
05:09
when it crosses that line
05:12
into misinformation and is
05:12
stated as a fact, that's when
05:16
we think there's a problem.
05:18
And we think that people who
05:18
are listeners should be able to
05:20
use the wisdom of the crowd to
05:20
report that back to the host.
05:24
And as you said, James, it's
05:24
not up to the host, then
05:26
what they do from there.
05:27
We're not asking for censorship.
05:28
We're not asking for
05:28
deep platforming.
05:30
That is then a particular
05:30
situation that the host can
05:33
deal with more likely than
05:33
not, that we'll end up with
05:36
a, you know, somebody suing
05:36
someone, taking them to
05:39
court, and then eventually the
05:39
host having to take it down.
05:42
If it's.
05:42
At that level, but no,
05:42
Adam, Dave, we're not asking
05:46
for government control.
05:47
We're not asking for censorship
05:47
and we're not asking for
05:50
deep platforming, we're just
05:50
asking for better tools.
05:53
And I think that's a good start.
05:54  James
You go through linked to
05:54
some tweets from Nicki Minaj,
05:58
who I believe is a popular,
05:58
uh, is a popular music singer,
06:02  Sam
um, on your
06:02
playlist every day.
06:04
James, Nicki Minaj, yeah.
06:07
Is, is a famous rap singer.
06:09
She's got 157 million
06:09
followers on Instagram and 22.6
06:13
million followers on Twitter.
06:16
She put out a tweet this week.
06:17
Now that could have
06:17
been a podcast.
06:20
Th the idea or the
06:20
concepts exactly the same.
06:22
She put out a tweet saying my
06:22
cousin in Trinidad won't get
06:25
the vaccine because his friend
06:25
got it and became impotent.
06:30
His testicles became swollen.
06:32
His friend was weeks away
06:32
from getting married.
06:34
Now the girl called
06:34
off the wedding.
06:35
So just pray on it, make
06:35
sure you're comfortable
06:38
with your decision.
06:39
Now that's total misinformation
06:39
that has been debunked.
06:44
By all the medical people saying
06:44
that is not the case, that's
06:47
resulted from the vaccine.
06:49
Um, but she is such an
06:49
influencer that it's actually
06:53
resulted in the black
06:53
community men deciding not
06:57
to go and get the vaccine.
06:59
Now that's causing
06:59
a lot of problems.
07:01
People to actually put
07:01
themselves in harm's way.
07:03  James
She's delivered that
07:03
as fact, hasn't she, that,
07:06
uh, the vaccine causes you
07:06
to become impotent, which
07:08
is clearly not the case and
07:08
that there is no medical
07:11
evidence to that whatsoever.
07:14
And I think that's the thing.
07:16
It's stuff like that, which
07:16
will harm our listeners.
07:19
And, and by the way, I don't
07:19
think this has got anything
07:21
to do with advertisers.
07:22
People support things that
07:22
are good, that treat them
07:25
well and value for value.
07:27
Also fails.
07:28
If we do a rubbish show, if
07:28
we give out bad information,
07:31
we treat our audiences badly.
07:33
I don't think it's anything
07:33
to do with advertisers.
07:35
I think it's just doing the
07:35
right thing for your audience.
07:38
What I found interesting is.
07:40
Episode of podcasting 2.0 was
07:40
right at the end, either at a
07:44
more Dave, I can't remember who
07:44
said that podcast index removes
07:48
shows from their directory.
07:50
If the content on
07:50
them is illegal.
07:53
So the government sets the law.
07:55
So there's actually even
07:55
no freedom of speech,
07:57
even in the podcast index.
07:59
So we're all talking
07:59
about the same thing here.
08:01
We're doing the right
08:01
thing by our audience and
08:04
we're making sure that
08:04
misinformation stuff, which
08:06
is harmful, doesn't get there.
08:08
And I think that's all good.
08:09
I think we're all on the
08:09
same side actually here.
08:11
Yes.
08:12
Well,
08:12  Sam
we, we, we are totally.
08:14
On the same side.
08:15  James
So, so I guess one
08:15
of the ways of, you know,
08:17
just, uh, alerting a podcast
08:17
host to knowing that they
08:21
have something which is bad
08:21
on their network is perhaps
08:25
to use things like clips.
08:27
Yeah.
08:27  Sam
So what I did this week
08:27
was I caught up with Oscar,
08:31
Mary he's, the CEO and founder
08:31
of fountain, which has a
08:36
wonderful new podcasting
08:36
app, which includes clips.
08:39
Now he uses clips to
08:39
allow listeners to, uh,
08:43
take the transcription a
08:43
bit like the script and
08:46
highlight the bit that you
08:46
want to share with people.
08:49
And that's a positive for
08:49
discovery as we'll find out.
08:54
But also we were thinking
08:54
that that could be used
08:57
as a great tool in ergo.
08:59
What Valerie's asking for.
09:01
I caught up with Oscar and I
09:01
asked him more about fountain.
09:05  Oscar
Fountain is a podcast
09:05
app and it allows you to
09:10
create uncheck clips from the
09:10
favorite moments in the podcast.
09:14
You're listening to, as well
09:14
as this, you can also support
09:17
your favorite podcasts with
09:17
Bitcoin through the podcasting
09:21
2.0 value for value standard.
09:24  Sam
Why did you want to
09:24
build a fountain yourself?
09:26
Why didn't you just go
09:26
and use another app?
09:29
I think
09:29  Oscar
the core problem that
09:29
we set out to address with
09:33
fountain was around the personal
09:33
problem that I've had with
09:37
podcasting, which is often
09:37
I'll look at my podcast feed
09:42
and I'll have so many episodes
09:42
that I want to listen to, but
09:47
I just don't have the time.
09:49
I'll have a two hour episode
09:49
here, an hour and a half episode
09:52
there, and there's just no way I
09:52
can get to all of the episodes.
09:56
And I know I'm missing out
09:56
on some incredible content.
10:00
And so we thought, how can
10:00
we address that problem?
10:04
That's why we set out to
10:04
build the clipping feature,
10:08
because we believe that in
10:08
the same way, podcasters will
10:12
take what they believe to be
10:12
the best bit of that episode.
10:16
Turn it into an audiogram and
10:16
share that on social media.
10:19
We believe there's an
10:19
opportunity for listeners
10:22
to do the same thing.
10:24
So that's what we've
10:24
built into fountain.
10:26
You can create a clip from
10:26
the actual transcript,
10:29
which makes creating that.
10:31
Much easier.
10:32
And then you can share that
10:32
clip as an audiogram, both
10:36
within fountain, because we
10:36
have social features, so you
10:39
can follow people and see
10:39
what clips they're creating.
10:42
But also importantly, you
10:42
can share those clips outside
10:46
of fountain as audio grams.
10:48
So you can share them
10:48
on Twitter or Instagram
10:50
or wherever already.
10:51
You can send them in a,
10:51
in a WhatsApp message.
10:54  Sam
Which is really cool, which
10:54
is one of the features I've been
10:56
asking for ages from podcast
10:56
apps, because I have the same
11:00
requirement is I've got the
11:00
interesting part of a podcast.
11:03
I want to share that with a
11:03
friend, but I don't want to
11:06
just share as T equals 25
11:06
seconds or two minutes in.
11:10
I want it to take that little
11:10
bit of clip, give it to them and
11:14
have a link back to the podcast.
11:15
That would be the thing that
11:15
will get them to be excited
11:18
just about coming back to listen
11:18
just as much as I was about
11:22  Oscar
exactly.
11:23
And it's really interesting
11:23
in the past few months,
11:26
since we've had this feat
11:26
to live, you get a window
11:29
into your friends and family
11:29
and their podcast listening.
11:34
Wasn't really possible before.
11:35
And I found that really
11:35
interesting, just hearing
11:38
small snippets of podcasts
11:38
that I would never listen to,
11:40
but that doesn't mean I don't
11:40
get value from an eclipse or
11:44
just, it's interesting to see
11:44
what people are listening to.
11:47  Sam
Now, when I downloaded
11:47
fountain the other day,
11:49
I tried to install a
11:49
lightning wallet and handout.
11:54
Satoshi's, I'm fairly technical.
11:56
I clearly not as technical
11:56
as you or James, but I
11:59
sort of hit a brick wall.
12:00
Can you explain to me how as
12:00
an end user, I would actually
12:05
use value for value and
12:05
how I would buy something.
12:08  Oscar
So it's definitely
12:08
a challenge right now, and
12:11
it's still very early with a
12:11
value for value and lightening
12:15
payments, but to put it simply.
12:19
Right now in order to fund
12:19
your fountain lightning wallet,
12:24
you need to already have
12:24
this on the lightning network
12:27
in another app, because we
12:27
don't currently allow you to
12:31
buy Bitcoin within fountain.
12:33
So the way I top up my wallet,
12:33
and this is probably the easiest
12:38
way right now is I use a Bitcoin
12:38
lightning wallet called blue
12:42
wallet, and I will actually
12:42
buy Bitcoin within blue wallet.
12:49
You can do that just
12:49
with a debit or credit.
12:52
And then once that's confirmed,
12:52
I will send the Satoshis
12:57
from my blue wallet back into
12:57
fountain, and then I'm ready
13:00
to go supporting other podcast.
13:03
I love
13:04  Sam
now, is there a plan in
13:04
the future for you to actually
13:07
then directly by fear currency
13:07
to Satoshi through fantasy?
13:12  James
So I think
13:12  Oscar
we definitely want to
13:12
make it as easy as possible for
13:16
people to get their Bitcoin,
13:16
get their sites within fountain.
13:21
I think we'll have to see
13:21
how the space develops,
13:25
because I think we've
13:25
got an advantage here.
13:29
The adoption of Bitcoin and
13:29
lightning is not just happening
13:33
within podcasting, it's
13:33
happening across the board.
13:36
And so people are going to
13:36
become more familiar with
13:40
Bitcoin, more familiar
13:40
with lightning app wallets.
13:44
And so we've got this on our
13:44
side and whether it's by.
13:49
Offering the ability to
13:49
buy Bitcoin directly in
13:52
the app or some kind of
13:52
integration with a wallet.
13:55
Like if you look at wallets
13:55
like strike in the U S or
13:59
that there's UK equivalents
13:59
and others around the globe,
14:02
I think we definitely want to
14:02
make it easier for people to get
14:05
their first stats on content.
14:07
The exact method of how
14:07
we do that is still TBC.
14:10
How long has
14:10
fountain been going?
14:11
So we've been live on iOS
14:11
and Android for six weeks.
14:17
So we're still appreciate
14:17
all of the users that have
14:19
stuck with us in this early
14:19
time and reported bugs and
14:22
asked for feature requests.
14:24
This is something.
14:25
We love to hear.
14:26
And we're every
14:26
request that we get.
14:29
We stick on the backlog and
14:29
we're working hard to implement
14:32
all of these features.
14:33
We've actually got a
14:33
big new update coming.
14:36
I think we'll be live on
14:36
iOS and Android by the
14:39
time this goes out, which
14:39
has a bunch of bug fixes.
14:43
So if you've reported a bug
14:43
to found them, it's probably
14:45
fixed in this update.
14:46
If not, let me know.
14:48
So please keep the
14:48
bug reports coming in.
14:50
The feature requests coming.
14:51
We also have support for
14:51
chapters, which is something
14:55
that another podcasting 2.0
14:55
feature that people love that
14:58
we'll have support for that
14:58
in the next update as well.
15:01  Sam
But there are other
15:01
features that you're
15:02
updating in the next.
15:04
This
15:04  Oscar
update primarily it was
15:04
about performance and bug fixes.
15:08
And there's a huge long list
15:08
in the release notes that
15:11
you'll see around things
15:11
that people have reported.
15:13
Like we'll release
15:14  Sam
that roadmap because
15:14
I'm sure you have one, every
15:17
good developer has a roadmap.
15:19
Is there a feature that's
15:19
on your wishlist that
15:22
you want to bring in?
15:22
And I know it might not come
15:22
into the next version, but
15:24
is there something that you
15:24
go, this is the one thing I
15:26
really want to get, but you
15:26
haven't quite got there yet.
15:28  Oscar
So for me, creating
15:28
clips is a really exciting
15:33
part of fountain, more
15:33
people to create Kips.
15:36
And one barrier to that right
15:36
now is the transcription.
15:41
So just to explain how the
15:41
clipping works for people that
15:45
haven't tested out fountain.
15:48
Allow you to create a
15:48
clip from the transcript.
15:50
So rather than selecting a
15:50
start time and an end time
15:55
for the segment that you want,
15:55
we'll actually show you the
15:58
transcript and you can edit
15:58
the text and then we edit
16:01
the audio for you afterwards.
16:03
And this just makes it much
16:03
easier to hold the context of
16:07
what the clips about in your
16:07
head and think about how other
16:10
people will listen to that.
16:13
And we found that makes
16:13
it easier to create
16:16
better quality clips.
16:17
So obviously we need the
16:17
transcript of each episode.
16:20
And one of the things that
16:20
we struggled with is a lot
16:24
of podcasts have dynamic
16:24
ad insertion, which means
16:28
that the timestamp of the
16:28
transcripts that you might
16:35
get will be different to
16:35
the one I get because we'll
16:37
have different length ads at
16:37
the beginning or at the end.
16:41
So right now, when you create
16:41
a clip, we do a custom.
16:45
For you so that you have
16:45
accurate timing information.
16:49
And this means that there's
16:49
a delay in the transcript
16:53
being available about
16:53
two to three minutes.
16:55
So once you get used to found
16:55
it, it's fine because when
17:00
you hear something that you
17:00
want to create a clip of,
17:02
you just hit the transcript
17:02
button, you hit the clip
17:05
button, and it's going to be
17:05
there in two to three minutes.
17:07
But obviously, especially
17:07
for new users, checking out
17:10
bounce into the first time.
17:11
That's a bit of a barrier
17:11
because it's annoying to have to
17:14
wait for two to three minutes.
17:15
I think where we're
17:15
working on a way to have
17:18
the transcript available
17:18
instantly, which will mean you
17:21
can create clips instantly.
17:22
And that for me is a really
17:22
important update because I
17:25
think it will just increase the
17:25
amount of clips being created.
17:28
And that's it core part of
17:28
what we're trying to do at
17:30  Sam
fountain is this
17:30
your full-time job
17:33
now creating counting.
17:35  Oscar
So I'm working
17:35
on fountain full time.
17:38  Sam
Brilliant.
17:38
What else have you seen
17:38
in the podcast world?
17:41
That's exciting.
17:42
What else have you seen that
17:42
you thought this is good?
17:44
This is cool.
17:45  Oscar
So I think I have to
17:45
just give a shout-out to Adam
17:50
and day from podcasting 2.0.
17:52
Because they are just, they
17:52
created some incredible
17:58
features for podcasting.
18:00
I'm sure your listeners know.
18:02
I getting everyone
18:02
incredibly excited about
18:04
where podcasting is going.
18:06
And I think there's even
18:06
more coming down the line
18:09
from podcasting 2.0, I think
18:09
things like the ability to
18:13
have a live episode and allow
18:13
apps to detect that and show
18:17
a different UI because that
18:17
episode is actually streaming
18:20
live and things like that.
18:21
Shout out to Adam and Dave.
18:22
I think the features that
18:22
they're working on and proposal.
18:25
I'm going to be really exciting.
18:27  Sam
Really.
18:28
I'll just get reminded
18:28
alone where they can
18:30
get the phone to now.
18:30
So you
18:31  Oscar
can go to fountain.fm
18:31
and download fountain
18:35
on iOS and Android.
18:37
And if you have any feedback
18:37
or feature requests, or
18:42
you just want to talk about
18:42
podcasting or bit going,
18:45
feel free to email me.
18:47
My email is Bhaskar
18:48  James
fountain or FM Mary
18:48
from, uh, the fountain app.
18:52
It's a very good one.
18:53
If you're listening, uh,
18:53
press that boost button and
18:56
that'll be a wonderful thing.
18:57
I also know.
18:59
Talking about sharing clips
18:59
as Oscar was at the beginning
19:02
of that, that, um, our sprouts
19:02
has had visual sound bites for
19:06
the last nine months or so.
19:08
And, uh, they are very cool
19:08
part of the podcast namespace
19:12
and, uh, they work very fine.
19:14
Uh, if you'd like to learn more
19:14
about visual soundbites, you'll
19:18
find more information around
19:18
that in the Buzzsprout website,
19:23  Sam
uh, clips, the way that
19:23
Oscar described them are
19:26
a great way for discovery.
19:28
And he's creating a search
19:28
element around them as well.
19:31
So maybe somebody just
19:31
wants to take a clip from
19:33
this podcast, share it.
19:35
And then that allows the person
19:35
they've shared it with, to go,
19:38
oh, well that was a great clip.
19:39
I wonder if the rest of the
19:39
podcast worth listening to
19:42
the visual soundbites that
19:42
Buzzsprout have are a creative.
19:47
Top-down tool.
19:48
So you and I, James could
19:48
create a visual soundbite,
19:51
uh, others called them audio
19:51
grams and use that for our
19:55
social media promotion.
19:56
Great way of doing it.
19:58
What has done is created this
19:58
from the listener point of view.
20:02
And again, I think
20:02
what's possible.
20:06
And what boss sprout are
20:06
starting to do, which why I
20:08
think imitation is the sincerest
20:08
form of flattery is they couple
20:13
of weeks ago, we described them
20:13
that you can now put a link to a
20:18
certain specific time point in a
20:18
episode as a listener and share
20:23
that with your social network
20:23
or just some close friends.
20:27
If Buzzsprout extended the
20:27
visual soundbites tool they
20:30
have for creators and made
20:30
that available to listeners,
20:35
then as a listener, I could
20:35
actually create a visual
20:39
soundbite, which is exactly
20:39
what Oscar Mary's clips are.
20:42
And I could then actually
20:42
then share that as an audio
20:45
gram or a soundbite from
20:45
the listener perspective.
20:48
Again, I think what we are
20:48
advocating for is that the
20:52
last 12 months, you know, Adam
20:52
and Dave have done a great job
20:56
with the namespace of bringing
20:56
what I call top down tools.
20:59
So extending the namespace with
20:59
a location and a hosting and
21:05
other tools that, you know, make
21:05
the podcast much more richer.
21:10
But what I think we're at
21:10
the point in podcasting
21:12
now is to create bottom
21:12
up architectural tools.
21:16
So listener base tools, Oscars,
21:16
adding clips for discovery.
21:20
And I think Buzzsprout
21:20
could extend that as
21:22  James
well.
21:23
Yeah.
21:23
And I think listener based tools
21:23
as well in terms of booster
21:27
grams, obviously where we get
21:27
to hear back from our audience.
21:30
And also, and I know that, uh,
21:30
Adam and Dave and the rest of
21:35
the podcast 2.0, um, uh, set
21:35
of folks are busy working on
21:40
comments that work across every
21:40
single podcast app out there,
21:45
which is a wonderful thing.
21:46
So, uh, all of that kind
21:46
of stuff is I think really
21:49
useful, uh, for, as we move.
21:52  Sam
Okay.
21:52
And talking about moving on,
21:52
let's move on to another story.
21:55
Richard Kramer.
21:56
He's an analyst
21:56
for a, a research.
21:58
Now Richard has recently
21:58
published, uh, a article
22:02
about Spotify, criticize him
22:02
saying, taking shows exclusive,
22:06
reduces their reach and
22:06
attractiveness to advertisers.
22:10
It goes on to say, few
22:10
titles are popular enough
22:13
to bring in new subscribers,
22:13
to offset the loss of ad
22:16
revenue from greater reach.
22:18
He thinks that actually it.
22:20
The podcast publisher in
22:20
other ways as well, like
22:23
event ticket sales books.
22:25
So what he's saying, I think
22:25
James, maybe you can clarify is
22:30
that actually going exclusive
22:30
with Spotify is not a great
22:33  James
idea.
22:33
Yeah.
22:33
Yeah.
22:34
I mean, this was part of a
22:34
client, uh, note that he sent
22:39
out to array researchers,
22:39
customers, basically
22:43
looking into Spotify, a
22:43
current revenue he has as
22:48
a big section in there, all
22:48
about podcast exclusivity,
22:51
a double edged sword and
22:51
points out that actually it
22:56
doesn't necessarily help.
22:59
Uh, many creators Brenae brown.
23:01
For example, her books sales
23:01
went down after she went
23:05
behind Spotify as paywall
23:05
because her podcast was
23:09
promoting her books and all
23:09
of a sudden, uh, fewer people
23:12
can actually hear those books.
23:13
I should say.
23:14
It's not Spotify as paywall.
23:15
That's what he called it.
23:16
It's um, just being
23:16
exclusive on Spotify and
23:19
still have listened free.
23:20
That's all fine.
23:21
But, uh, yeah, so he's
23:21
basically saying that that's
23:24
not necessarily a good place.
23:27
And that really, you know,
23:27
it works for some shows, but
23:30
doesn't work for most shows
23:30
our marketing teams resent
23:34
their products, being used to
23:34
bait subscribers, um, to, uh,
23:39
you know, download the Spotify
23:39
app and so on and so forth.
23:42
So it was quite a, um, it was
23:42
quite a bullish client, uh, note
23:47
and he finishes off by saying
23:47
we think Spotify needs new
23:50
management and a new approach.
23:53
Ouch.
23:54
Um, so I think, uh, you know,
23:54
he, he was certainly quite, um,
23:58
uh, quite outspoken in terms
23:58
of where he sees Spotify going.
24:02  Sam
He does a great podcast.
24:04
The friend of the show will
24:04
page, uh, they've got a
24:07
podcast called bubble trouble
24:07
and I highly recommend
24:10
having a listen to that one.
24:12
They're both economists and
24:12
they've got a really interesting
24:14
insight into how this world is
24:14
working with, uh, podcasting
24:18
and, uh, the music India.
24:20  James
Absolutely have a listen.
24:21
Now don't have a listen in a
24:21
couple of weeks time because
24:24
I'll be a guest on for, in a
24:24
couple of weeks time and you'll
24:26
go, oh, not this guy can,
24:29  Sam
well, actually
24:29
Richard has agreed to come
24:31
onto our show as well.
24:32
So
24:33  James
quid pro quo, indeed.
24:34
Interestingly enough, I was
24:34
chatting with him because I
24:37
rang up to find out how to
24:37
pronounce a red day research
24:40
because it's not very obvious
24:40
when it's written down.
24:43
And, um, we got talking
24:43
about Spotify and advertisers
24:48
as I was talking to him.
24:49
I realized that wouldn't it
24:49
be interesting if I could
24:52
download all of my personal
24:52
data from Spotify to find
24:55
out what they know about me.
24:57
So I ended up doing that.
24:59
I learnt a little
24:59
bit of information.
25:00
I, it was interesting.
25:02
They learn, they know actually
25:02
much less about me than
25:04
I thought that they would
25:04
perhaps that's because I've,
25:07
unticked the button that
25:07
says, uh, I would like bespoke
25:11
advertising to me or perhaps
25:11
it's just because I pay for it.
25:14
So I don't hear any advertising
25:14
anyway, but I did learn
25:17
for example, that Spotify
25:17
knows that I drive a Toyota.
25:21
Because I've connected my phone
25:21
to my Toyota's Bluetooth system.
25:26
Also Spotify says that
25:26
I prefer short podcasts.
25:31
I suspect that this is because
25:31
I just listened to two pod news
25:35
on Spotify just to check that
25:35
it's there every now and again.
25:38
So Spotify is
25:38
obviously going well.
25:39
He clearly doesn't
25:39
listen very long.
25:41
And if you compare what Spotify
25:41
knows about me with what Google
25:44
podcasts knows about me, for
25:44
example, Google podcasts knows
25:48
exactly what I've searched for.
25:50
Google podcasts knows
25:50
exactly what email I get.
25:54
It can see into my Google docs.
25:56
Probably it can.
25:57
It knows what I've
25:57
got in YouTube.
26:00
What I watch there as well.
26:03
So Google podcasts has
26:03
so much more information
26:06
than I will ever do.
26:08
From Spotify.
26:10
So I thought that was a, it was
26:10
just quite interesting realizing
26:14
that Google and indeed apple
26:14
now Norfolk a lot more about me
26:18
or could know an awful lot more
26:18
about me than Spotify Everwill.
26:22
So I,
26:22  Sam
I always liked to apply.
26:23
So what tests things when, when
26:23
what I hear statements, so they
26:28
know all these things about me.
26:29
So what, what can they do,
26:31  James
James?
26:31
Well, I mean, if they know,
26:31
for example that you have
26:35
kids at home, then that's a
26:35
great place to advertise a
26:39
kids, um, you know, stuffed
26:39
toys and a kid's food and
26:44
all of that sort of thing.
26:46
So it all comes down to
26:46
the advertising, but you
26:49
know, is that a bad thing?
26:50
Well, I, you know, I would
26:50
argue probably not because
26:53
actually, if I do have kids
26:53
of four or five at home,
26:57
Spotify has realized that
26:57
Spotify is advertising
26:59
things that my kids are four
26:59
or five might find good.
27:03
Then that's probably
27:03
quite useful.
27:05
I'm kind of one of these people
27:05
who most of the time probably
27:09
wouldn't turn off personalized
27:09
advertising because I
27:13
recognize actually personalized
27:13
advertising can be quite useful.
27:16
Yeah.
27:17  Sam
I think I've always
27:17
said actually in the.
27:20
People who can't afford.
27:22
Things will not see adverts,
27:22
but they'll work out what, who
27:25
we are, how much our income is.
27:28
And they won't.
27:28
For example, give you
27:28
an Aston Martin ad.
27:30
If they don't think you can
27:30
afford an Aston Martin, I think
27:33
that old adage of, you know,
27:33
Ford, um, about how much you
27:37
spend on your advertising and
27:37
50% of it, you don't know.
27:40
Um, I think we will eventually
27:40
see targeted advertising
27:43
actually becoming useful.
27:45
How are those Viagra
27:45
ads coming along, James?
27:49  James
Now, now.
27:50
Um, I, I mean, I think, uh,
27:50
I think you're right, but
27:53
I also think of course that
27:53
if you are comparatively
27:57
rich, then you will pay to
27:57
get rid of the ants anyway.
28:00
Yeah.
28:00
And I think that's one of
28:00
the problems that Richard was
28:03
pointing out to me on the phone.
28:05
If, um, you know, Spotify
28:05
premium subscribers are
28:09
clearly richer than those
28:09
who are listening to it for
28:12
free, because they can afford
28:12
the $15 a month or whatever
28:15
it is to get rid of the ads.
28:17
Similarly, I get rid of
28:17
the ads on YouTube, um,
28:19
because I happened to use
28:19
the YouTube music service and
28:22
that's what it comes with.
28:23
So actually it's going to be
28:23
quite hard for you to market
28:26
your Alfa Romeo to, to me
28:26
or your, you know, uh, fancy
28:31
BMW car, uh, to me because,
28:31
you know, you can't actually
28:36
get those advertisers.
28:37
You can't actually get that
28:37
advertising in front of me.
28:40
Um, You know, cause I've
28:40
paid to get rid of the ads.
28:43
So I think that that
28:43
again is a problem.
28:46
And I think it's a particular
28:46
problem that compares quite
28:49
nicely to, you know, free to air
28:49
TV or to broadcast radio where
28:54
you get everybody gets the ads.
28:56
There'd
28:57  Sam
be a time James, where
28:57
dynamic content insertion
29:00
is injected into podcasts
29:00
by the likes of Google,
29:05
apple, and Spotify against
29:05
anything that we want.
29:09
And then will they say well
29:09
to remove the dynamic content
29:12
ads, you have to pay a further
29:12
subscription to be added.
29:16
Do you ever think
29:16
that will occur?
29:18
I
29:18  James
think that there
29:18
are two sides to this.
29:20
One side is, is Google working
29:20
on a Google ad sense for audio?
29:25
And the answer is yes,
29:25
they'd been doing that for
29:27
15 years and they've never
29:27
actually got anywhere.
29:29
Um, but, uh, I mean, I
29:29
remember going to an NAB Europe
29:33
conference in Rome, in Italy
29:33
probably 15 years or so ago.
29:38
And there was somebody from
29:38
Google there who was very
29:40
excited about their, their new
29:40
ad sense for audio platform,
29:44
which was just around the
29:44
corner and it never launched.
29:47
And I think that is clearly
29:47
something that Google is
29:50
interested in, uh, doing, has
29:50
always been interested in doing,
29:54
but on the other side, yeah.
29:56
I mean, will there be
29:56
more tears in Spotify?
29:59
So, you know, you can actually
29:59
get rid of all of the ads
30:02
which are being injected
30:02
into the Joe Rogan podcast
30:05
or, or something else.
30:06
Yeah, probably in time.
30:08
One would assume my thoughts
30:08
on, you know, the Google
30:11
AdSense for audio thing is
30:11
if we can opt into that.
30:15
And we can earn
30:15
money out of that.
30:16
Maybe not us, but podcast
30:16
is in general would probably
30:21
find that quite nice.
30:22
Um, but at the moment, there's
30:22
no way of necessarily doing
30:26
that, but I think anything that,
30:26
um, uh, respects the creator,
30:30
but allows, allows a creator to
30:30
opt in to that sort of thing.
30:34
I think that there's
30:34
absolutely nothing wrong with
30:36  Sam
that now.
30:37
Uh, Spotify, aren't getting
30:37
off lightly this week nine
30:41
to five max as Spotify falls
30:41
short as a podcast app.
30:46
What'd you think
30:46
about that, James?
30:48
Is it as podcast app
30:49  James
anyway?
30:50
Well, they like apple music for
30:50
them music rather than Spotify.
30:54
And so, you know, you you've got
30:54
that sort of side as well, but
30:57
I think undoubtedly, the Spotify
30:57
podcast experience is not a
31:01
great experience in comparison
31:01
to a proper podcast app.
31:06
And there are, you know,
31:06
more and more of those,
31:09
which do a much better job.
31:10
Um, you know, PocketCasts being
31:10
the obvious, beautiful example.
31:14
Could Spotify be a
31:14
better podcast app?
31:17
Yes.
31:18
But on the other hand,
31:18
it hasn't stopped them
31:20
from being number one.
31:21
You know, they are number one
31:21
in Germany with more than 50% of
31:25
the podcast audience in Germany.
31:27
And that's in spite of the
31:27
fact that their podcast app
31:30
isn't arguably as good as
31:30
some other podcast apps.
31:33
So, you know, perhaps that
31:33
that's less of a problem
31:37
than a, than it might be.
31:38  Sam
Well, let's move on.
31:40
I think we've done enough.
31:40
Spotify bashing this week.
31:42
I wanted to cover an area that
31:42
you've been writing about in pod
31:46
news, or you have three or four
31:46
stories actually, uh, looking
31:50
at how podcasts are moving much.
31:53
With international languages.
31:55
The first one you started
31:55
off with reviewing the
31:57
Spanish market, James, uh,
31:57
looking at how it's grown
32:01
6.8 times in the last year.
32:03
Yes.
32:04  James
This is
32:04
according to evokes.
32:06
I believe that they are
32:06
actually pronounced.
32:08
I've been pronouncing
32:08
them evokes for the
32:10
last year and a half.
32:10
And nobody's been polite enough
32:10
to tell me that I'm wrong.
32:13
But anyway, 55% of Spanish
32:13
podcast listeners are
32:16
listening more now than
32:16
before the pandemic.
32:20
Uh, it also says, so evokes
32:20
released a bunch of, uh,
32:25
data, which then worked
32:25
on with a chartable and
32:29
various other people as well.
32:30
And, um, you know, it's just
32:30
really interesting seeing
32:34
data from other countries and
32:34
seeing how people are consuming
32:39
podcasts, what they like, what
32:39
they don't like and seeing, you
32:43
know, all of the differences,
32:43
the big growth actually last
32:46
year was in Hindi podcasts,
32:46
which went up more than 14
32:50
times podcasts in Chinese
32:50
languages went up eight times
32:54
and Portuguese went up seven
32:54
times English only doubled.
32:58
Um, but even so, I mean,
32:58
doubled is still pretty good.
33:02
So, um, yeah, so it was
33:02
interesting seeing that
33:05
there's a bunch of, um,
33:05
data from, uh, evokes.
33:09
Spanish listeners are to get,
33:09
you know, more big shows.
33:13
It was interesting at, um,
33:13
the IB podcast up-fronts
33:17
last week, PRX was there and
33:17
Radiotopia, which is part
33:22
of PRX was talking about can
33:22
Theone Exploder and can Theone.
33:26
Exploder is the Spanish language
33:26
version of song Exploder.
33:31
It's going to be produced
33:31
by add-on day media.
33:33
Who've done a good job of these
33:33
sorts of things in the past,
33:36
and that's going to be a pretty
33:36
cool, so it's great to see more
33:39
big shows being talked about
33:39
in the Spanish language as
33:44  Sam
well.
33:45
I think also, what are the
33:45
other ones that you wrote about
33:48
was a studio of chanter, which
33:48
is run by Laurie Martinez.
33:54
Uh, and she's starting
33:54
to extend that Lori.
33:57
I know because she was at my
33:57
podcast festival back in March
34:01
in 2019, and she came across
34:01
my path through a friend of
34:04
mine, Minter dial and Laurie.
34:08
It has taken.
34:09
Existing single language
34:09
podcast and translated them
34:13
into multiple languages.
34:14
And that we thought that
34:14
was a really great thing
34:16
that she was doing.
34:17
She seems to be doing
34:17
more of that now as well.
34:20  James
Yeah, she is.
34:20
And she, you know, I mean,
34:20
a studio or Shanta is
34:24
a multi-lingual podcast
34:24
company based in Paris.
34:27
There again, I've been
34:27
calling it our Cantor, so
34:29
who knows it's pronounced.
34:33
Oh.
34:33
Um, but, um, one of the
34:33
podcasts that they make
34:37
is called , which is a
34:37
Spanish and follow G series.
34:43
It's basically fiction stories
34:43
from across Latin America and
34:46
its diasporas across the world.
34:48
And they are looking for
34:48
pitches for their next
34:52
stories related to fire,
34:52
uh, in both the literal and
34:56
figurative sense of the term.
34:58
Of course, quite a lot of
34:58
Spain is on fire at the moment.
35:00
So, um, there there's a,
35:00
there's a thing anyway.
35:03
Um, Pitch process is open
35:03
now and you'll find links to
35:08
that in the pod news website.
35:11
Again, I think looking at just
35:11
the growth in terms of, um,
35:15
additional language podcasts
35:15
here is really interesting
35:19
and certainly the amount of
35:19
additional content which is
35:22
going on here is good too.
35:23
Yeah.
35:23  Sam
As I said, I was
35:23
talking about mentor as well.
35:25
Who's a friend of the show.
35:27
He signed up with evergreen
35:27
podcasts, but one of the thing
35:30
that's interesting about Minta,
35:30
he publishes both his podcast
35:34
in English and in French.
35:37
Uh, he's fluent in
35:37
seven languages.
35:38
So it's not surprising.
35:40
Gosh.
35:40
Yeah.
35:41
What'd you think next
35:41
week we published this
35:43
one in French or Hindi?
35:44
What, what should we go for
35:45  James
James?
35:47
I think that may be a difficult
35:47
thing, although, um, I am
35:52
working on something with Brian
35:52
Barletta from sounds profitable,
35:57
uh, which, uh, is going to be
35:57
very cool where you may hear me
36:02
talking a different language.
36:03
I'm not fluent in any other
36:03
language, but you may hear
36:06
me talking in a different
36:06
language in the future.
36:08
Um, I will say no more on
36:08
that because, uh, obviously
36:11
it's Brian's story, not mine.
36:13
Um, but, uh, let's wait
36:13
and see how that bit works.
36:16  Sam
I look forward to
36:16
that cling on episode,
36:21  James
cling on, Hey,
36:21
well, there we are.
36:23
Uh, Sirius XM.
36:25
Yes, you cannot be serious.
36:27  Sam
Simple cars,
36:27
founder and CEO, Brad
36:29
Smith has been promoted.
36:30
He's been named head of
36:30
podcasts products for serious.
36:33
Now I know Brad from talking
36:33
to him on Sam Talks Technology,
36:37
and I've asked him if he'll
36:37
come on our show here.
36:40
Uh, so yes, I expect we
36:40
will have Brad on pod land
36:44
in the next few weeks.
36:46
Uh, what I couldn't understand.
36:47
And maybe, you know,
36:47
and then maybe we'll ask
36:49
Brad in a few weeks time,
36:49
or what are they doing?
36:52
I mean, I, I don't use serious.
36:54
Uh, I'm not based in the U S uh,
36:54
I have used Pandora in the past.
36:59
I don't use Stitcher, but
36:59
it's obviously very good.
37:02
And it's got ads with.
37:04
What are they trying to become?
37:06
What is this new entity
37:06
that Brad's heading up?
37:09
Well,
37:09  James
I think this is a
37:09
really interesting look at
37:13
how consolidation is going
37:13
on, uh, in the U S so you've
37:17
got some companies, for
37:17
example, iHeart who own a
37:21
bunch of podcast producers.
37:24
They also have.
37:25
Their own radio stations.
37:27
Of course they own Triton
37:27
digital, they own, uh, RCS, uh,
37:33
they own, you know, all kinds of
37:33
weird and wonderful people, but
37:37
they are all separate companies.
37:40
So they're not, you know, you
37:40
don't necessarily see Triton
37:44
working, uh, massively hard with
37:44
other bits of the iHeart radio.
37:49
Worlds.
37:50
That's not typically how these
37:50
sorts of things work, but what
37:53
Sirius XM has been doing is very
37:53
much taking the acquisitions
37:59
that they've made over the
37:59
last two or three years,
38:02
and now really pulling those
38:02
together very, very strongly.
38:05
So all of a sudden, Sirius XM
38:05
from a point of view of ad sales
38:10
has pooled all of their eyed
38:10
salespeople from Stitcher and
38:14
Midroll, and also from Pandora
38:14
who have a big local Salesforce
38:19
and for the Sirius XM satellite
38:19
radio stations as well.
38:23
All of those are now together
38:23
as one they're called S
38:27
X M media, which is very
38:27
difficult to save very fast.
38:30
And then you also have.
38:32
In terms of the content side,
38:32
you're seeing Brad Smith now
38:37
who is responsible for podcast
38:37
strategy across all of those
38:41
platforms across Sirius XM,
38:41
Pandora, Stitcher, and AdsWizz
38:46
both for strategy for creators
38:46
and also for listeners as well.
38:51
Um, so really good to end
38:51
up seeing that happening.
38:55
Sirius XM just
38:55
posted their numbers.
38:58
And I believe that they had
38:58
$8 billion worth of revenue.
39:02
It's some ridiculous
39:02
high figure.
39:05
So Sirius XM is doing
39:05
very, very well.
39:07
Although, you know, those
39:07
satellites aren't going to fly
39:09
themselves, but I think, you
39:09
know, um, uh, if you own lots
39:13
of different companies in the
39:13
same kind of area, making sure
39:17
that they all work together
39:17
makes an awful lot of sense.
39:20  Sam
I look forward to you
39:20
hearing from prod as well.
39:22
I think that M and a thing
39:22
we're going to see a lot
39:25
more of a guest in 2020.
39:27
In the UK, there must be
39:27
something in the water I've
39:31
decided because Jerry Edwards
39:31
started a podcast radio station.
39:36
It was his brain child along
39:36
with Paul Chandler, a 35 year
39:41
veteran of the radio industry.
39:42
And they've done really well.
39:43
Actually, I think you're
39:43
featured on, on there.
39:46  James
Yes.
39:47
You can listen to pod
39:47
news updates every single
39:49
day, um, on podcast radio,
39:49
which you can pick up in
39:53
most large bits of the UK.
39:55
Of course we had Jerry Edwards
39:55
on this very podcast way,
39:58
way back at the beginning.
40:00
Uh, and, uh, he seems to
40:00
be going very, very well.
40:03
My understanding is that he's
40:03
talking about international
40:06
expansion for the podcast
40:06
radio brand as well.
40:09
So that would be
40:09
interesting to see how that.
40:12
You've ended up doing
40:12
something exciting as well.
40:14
In terms of podcast, first radio
40:14
station, I saw this beautiful
40:19
press release from wash cur, uh,
40:19
talking about, uh, all of the
40:23
clever things that you're doing.
40:24
You've got 20 subject focused
40:24
hour long shows, which you
40:28
turn into podcasts and you're
40:28
doing all kinds of things
40:31
with your, your radio station.
40:33
You,
40:33  Sam
yeah.
40:34
We started to look
40:34
at what was radio.
40:37
Now.
40:37
You, you've got a great radio
40:37
newsletter and podcasts as
40:40
well, and you've got, you're
40:40
a veteran of the industry.
40:42
So, you know, I'm sure
40:42
you're going to tell me
40:45
I'm not makes me feel old.
40:48
Um, I'm sure you're going to
40:48
tell me I'm smoking crack in a
40:51
minute, but, um, Jerry, Jerry
40:51
did inspire me with what he
40:55
was doing with podcast radio.
40:56
And I sat down with my fellow
40:56
directors and said, look,
41:00
I just don't believe music
41:00
is the future of radio.
41:03
I think, uh, kids certainly that
41:03
are in my household and many
41:08
of their friends who Spotify
41:08
or Amazon or iTunes to listen
41:12
to music or YouTube, then, you
41:12
know, even more so ticked off.
41:16
And I don't think radio is the
41:16
way with music, but I do think
41:20
talk radio and that speech based
41:20
radio is the way going forward.
41:24
Now what we did was we
41:24
decided to create one
41:28
hour only long shows.
41:30
Now most radio stations
41:30
create two, three hour
41:34
long radio programs, which
41:34
aren't very podcast, double
41:38
a and a short Joe Rogan.
41:39
Of course.
41:40
So we've created 21 hour shows.
41:42
We're going to extend
41:42
that to 30, possibly more.
41:45
And what we do is we use.
41:47
To help us take our live
41:47
stream and directly out
41:50
that to apple, Spotify,
41:50
Google, and other platforms.
41:54
And it works brilliantly.
41:55
I don't have to touch it.
41:57
It's one of, you know,
41:57
listening to you last week.
41:59
How do you make save time
41:59
where you automate everything?
42:03
Well, for me, automating
42:03
creating those podcasts was
42:06
the best thing I did with
42:06
washer, because it means
42:09
that I don't have to touch
42:09
it once I've set it up, it
42:12
automatically create some
42:12
publishes out and we've got the
42:15
river radio channel on apple.
42:17
Um, and they're all.
42:19
Spotify and yeah, he's working
42:19
the next stage for us is we've
42:23
got sponsors rather than ads.
42:24
We're not going to be
42:24
doing advertising to
42:26
break up the content.
42:28
Um, and we'll see how it goes.
42:29
That's our plan anyway.
42:30
Yeah,
42:31  James
no, I think that
42:31
makes a bunch of sense.
42:33
I think all of the data that
42:33
I've seen over the last year
42:36
or so has shown that talk
42:36
radio is on the ascendant
42:40
talk radio is, is increasing
42:40
and that's, um, radio with
42:44
talk rather than the format
42:44
of talk radio and music radio
42:48
doesn't necessarily seem to be
42:48
increasing particularly much.
42:52
So, you know, and there was
42:52
a point, uh, this time last
42:56
year where I was having a
42:56
look at the radio data and,
43:00
um, you know, Brisbane,
43:00
relatively unaffected by.
43:03
Pandemic, um, you, you was,
43:03
uh, you, you know, it was
43:07
interesting looking at their
43:07
data and then looking at
43:10
Melbourne's data, which has been
43:10
in lockdown and was in lockdown,
43:14
uh, back during that particular
43:14
radio survey and what you could
43:17
see in Melbourne, particularly.
43:19
Was just a tremendous growth
43:19
in the amount of listening
43:24
to speech radio to talk
43:24
radio, whether it was the
43:27
local ABC station, whether
43:27
it was, um, uh, three a w or
43:31
whatever it might have been.
43:33
Um, but you also saw a lot of
43:33
music, radio stations going
43:36
down as people, you know,
43:36
were just tuning in for human
43:40
beings for a shared experience
43:40
in a human connection.
43:43
So, um, yeah, I think that,
43:43
that, that's absolutely
43:46
the right thing to go.
43:47
And I think, uh, you know,
43:47
more radio stations, which
43:50
aren't just a jukebox, uh,
43:50
that I can't control and
43:53
instead have human beings on.
43:55
There is always a good plan.
43:57  Sam
I'll let you know in 12
43:57
months time, if I'm still alive
43:59
and kicking now time now James
43:59
four books to Graham corner.
44:04
Now it's time for the
44:05  James
boost boost boost boost
44:08  Alex
boost to gram corner.
44:10  James
It's too much.
44:11
Yes.
44:11
We've received booster
44:11
grams this week.
44:14
So thank you for those Dave
44:14
Jones, uh, sent through 21,000
44:20
SATs on castomatic and, uh, you
44:20
remember we called him the pod
44:25
bro, uh, this time last week.
44:28
And he says, uh, he, he
44:28
sent through a mega boost
44:31
to Graham from the pod
44:31
pro, although a Kyron has
44:35
other ideas, hasn't he?
44:36
Yes, he
44:36  Sam
does.
44:36
I personally feel.
44:38
Pod Sage fits Dave better.
44:40
He's too wise and calm
44:40
to be a broke pod,
44:43  James
Sage things.
44:43
Current Dave Jones,
44:43
the pods Sage.
44:47
That sounds like a wise plan.
44:49
Dave Jackson also says
44:49
thank you for the mention.
44:51
We'd love to come on the show.
44:52
500 SATs sent through fountain.
44:55
Hooray.
44:56
Thank you very much, Dave.
44:57
We'd love to have you.
44:58
I should.
44:59
We get onto sending that email.
45:01
Dave Jones again sent another
45:01
mega booster Graham talking
45:05
about being very excited
45:05
that he was number nine
45:08
in the pod news ranker.
45:09
Uh, so that's a lovely thing.
45:11
Uh, again, using castomatic
45:11
and we had one from Dave Jones,
45:16
his, um, friend at the other
45:16
end, uh, the pod father himself.
45:20
Yes.
45:21  Sam
He says podcast into the
45:21
oh, episode 52, shout out.
45:24
Yes.
45:25
And he sent us 1089 stats.
45:27
Thanks.
45:27  James
Yes.
45:28
I wonder what 10 89 cents.
45:30
Is that, is that a
45:30
reference to radio one?
45:31
Do you think?
45:33
10 89, 10 53.
45:35
Yes.
45:36
There's some numerology
45:36
going on there.
45:38
Um, but, uh, thank you, Adam.
45:40
And thank you for using
45:40
pod friend, uh, for that.
45:43
Um, I did say that we
45:43
would say how much SATs
45:46
we've earned so far.
45:48
So I just went to have a
45:48
look and we haven't 476,000
45:53
SATs so far in case you're
45:53
wondering how much that's
45:56
worth that is worth 230.
45:59
Dollars.
46:00
So that's how much so far
46:00
we have earned from booster
46:04
grams and from, uh, the
46:04
listening to our show using,
46:09
uh, sets per minute, uh,
46:09
that is a, a nice amount.
46:13
And given that it's still
46:13
really, really early days, uh,
46:17
thought it might be useful to
46:17
know how much money, uh, that
46:21
we have learnt so far rather
46:21
how much crypto we've learnt.
46:24
So far 476,028 sets.
46:27
Of course it will be more by
46:27
the time this actually goes out.
46:31
So, um, thank you.
46:32
If you have given us some, uh,
46:32
SATs and, uh, I end up sharing
46:37
a half of those or we'll end up
46:37
sharing half of those with Mr.
46:41
Sethi, my friend
46:41
at the other end.
46:43
Uh, so that'd be a good thing.
46:44
Well, I'm going to
46:45
do
46:45  Sam
so Nathan, back to you for
46:45
the repatriate James to Britain
46:49
fund, To get you over here.
46:51  James
Well, uh, that's
46:51
all dependent on the
46:53
Australian government,
46:53
uh, but I trust them.
46:56
I'm sure that they know
46:56
what they're doing.
46:58
Um, so what do you
46:58
do with Satoshis?
47:00
Uh, once you've actually
47:00
earned them, if you have, um,
47:04
made your podcast to value
47:04
for value enabled, what can
47:06
you actually do with that?
47:08
Uh, Sam, uh,
47:10  Sam
stick them up on your wall.
47:11
Uh, Decorate them hand them
47:11
out for pizza and then find out
47:16
they're worth 500 million later.
47:18
None of that.
47:18
No.
47:19
Okay.
47:19
What'd you do Joe.
47:19
And there's a
47:20  James
really nice tool
47:20
that I discovered, um,
47:22
which is called moon.
47:24
Uh, I'll tell you
47:24
what the URL is.
47:26
Pay with moon.com.
47:28
It's a way for you
47:28
to transfer Sam.
47:32
Into a single use visa card.
47:34
So say you are on a website
47:34
and they want to charge you.
47:39
I don't know, $6 99 for some,
47:39
um, you know, cable that you
47:44
want and you, and you want
47:44
to go, oh, well actually I'd
47:47
rather pay for that $6 99
47:47
with, uh, my cryptocurrency.
47:52
So what this pay with moon.com
47:52
thing lets you do is it lets
47:56
you transfer just $6 99.
47:59
Of cryptocurrency onto something
47:59
that looks like a visa card so
48:03
that you can just pay, you know,
48:03
Amazon or Walmart or whatever
48:06
it is that you want to pay,
48:06
which is a really smart idea.
48:09
There are other
48:09
ways of doing that.
48:11
There's a website called bit
48:11
refill, which works, um, in
48:14
quite a lot of countries.
48:16
What bit refill allows you
48:16
to do is, um, is, uh, take
48:20
a Bitcoin or PSATs and
48:20
turn those into gift cards.
48:24
And those are fine.
48:25
And you can turn, you know,
48:25
something into a gift card for
48:28
$20, but you're never buying
48:28
stuff, which is exactly $20.
48:31
Are you?
48:32
Um, which is why I
48:32
thought that this.
48:34
The thing was quite a neat idea.
48:37
Um, that moon thing for
48:37
the moment is U S only.
48:41
And it does require some form
48:41
of weird Chrome extension on
48:45
your browser, but, uh, still,
48:45
uh, may be worth a look.
48:48
If you're wondering how to
48:48
spend some of those SATs that
48:52
you have pay with moon.com.
48:54
Are there any other
48:54  Sam
alternatives?
48:55
I mean, us only, is there
48:55
another way you can do it?
48:58
I
48:58  James
mean, apart from bit
48:58
refill, I mean, obviously, you
49:01
know that you, you can, uh,
49:01
transfer them into something
49:05
like, you know, Coinbase or, or
49:05
another one where you can then,
49:08
you know, just, um, transfer
49:08
it out into fit into your.
49:12
Um, currency.
49:14
Um, so you can do that
49:14
typically that doesn't
49:16
necessarily work too well.
49:17
Um, because you have
49:17
to pay quite a lot to
49:20
get your Bitcoins out.
49:21
You have to pay $20 or so
49:21
to send your Bitcoins over.
49:25
Whereas, um, what moon, the
49:25
way that moon is working
49:28
is that it is using the
49:28
roughly 3% credit card fees
49:33
that it gets to keep it, um,
49:33
fee-free for you as a user.
49:38
So you're not actually paying
49:38
anything to transfer your
49:41
SATs into, into a visa card.
49:44
It turns out that the retailer
49:44
is paying their normal
49:48
credit card charge instead,
49:48
which a moon obviously
49:51
keeps a fair amount of.
49:52
So, um, yes.
49:54
Just a little bit of
49:54
a different way of
49:56  Sam
doing it.
49:56
I suppose you could always take
49:56
them to El Salvador, James.
49:59
Now that the Bitcoins,
49:59
the official currency
50:01  James
of the country.
50:02
Yes, indeed.
50:02
Uh, maybe you could, maybe you
50:02
could take them to El Salvador.
50:06
Uh, their president, uh, naive
50:06
book Hailey says that it will
50:10
help Salvadorans save about
50:10
$400 million, which has spent
50:16
on commissions and bank charges.
50:19
Uh, so maybe, but it's
50:19
not necessarily working
50:24
as well as, uh, as it
50:24
might be, but, uh, yeah.
50:27
Interesting to see what,
50:27
uh, El Salvador are doing.
50:31
Um, wouldn't necessarily
50:31
copy them quite yet, but who
50:34  Sam
knows there are rumors,
50:34
is that a America or start
50:37
a stable coin called the.
50:39
As their currency anyway,
50:39
what's wrong with a
50:41
dollar that's for another
50:42  James
podcast.
50:43
Anyway, there are more,
50:43
there are more tools
50:46
supporting value for value.
50:47  Sam
Just cast now supports
50:47
value for value and
50:50
soundbites, which we were
50:50
talking about earlier.
50:52
So well done there.
50:54
Have you used just
50:54
cost at all, James?
50:56  James
Um, I haven't,
50:56
they're a good looking
50:59
podcast hosting solution.
51:00
The clever thing with them
51:00
is that they use things like
51:03
Dropbox to host your audio.
51:06
So you're not actually buying
51:06
audio space from, uh, just cars
51:10
directly or using something
51:10
that you already have, which
51:13
might be a free Dropbox account.
51:15
So that's quite a neat plan.
51:16
I think
51:17  Sam
now I caught up, uh,
51:17
earlier this week with
51:20
Alex Jakoby, uh, to talk
51:20
about a new data standard
51:24
he's proposing for.
51:26
Data analytics to move your
51:26
data from one host to the other.
51:30
And I started off by asking
51:30
him where he is in the world
51:33
and what's he proposed,
51:33
you'll find me in Germany.
51:36  Alex
And I'm an audio
51:36
entrepreneur from Germany.
51:38
I'm running four companies,
51:38
which are all more or less
51:41
audio centric since my whole
51:41
life in audio production.
51:44
And two things I'm very
51:44
passionate about is podcasting.
51:47
So I'm running service that
51:47
helps newspapers record that
51:52
podcast and publish that
51:52
podcast from like hosting and
51:55
then recording infrastructure.
51:56
And I'm involved in a
51:56
very interesting project
51:59
that tries to bring the
51:59
fragmented broadcast structure
52:02
and Germany together.
52:05
To find one way to measure
52:05
podcast plays in a way that
52:10
we can build a currency for
52:10
advertisers, because we see
52:13
the problem that even if you
52:13
use IED compliant reporting,
52:17
you can have results with a
52:17
lot Feis that differ by 15%.
52:22
And this is something
52:22
advertisers do not access.
52:25
And we're involved
52:25
with the gathering.
52:27
It's called the AGMA, the
52:27
Abbott's the mineshaft
52:30
mat and a loser.
52:31
So it's a gathering of
52:31
all the public broadcast
52:34
stations and all the private
52:34
broadcasters in Germany.
52:37
And they are building a standard
52:37
together to build a trusted
52:41
way of measuring a podcast.
52:43  Sam
Wow.
52:44
Okay.
52:44
So apart from just doing your
52:44
day job and doing that job,
52:48
you also involved in a new
52:48
project as well, which is
52:51
involving around a standard
52:51
that you're proposing, as you
52:55
can tell us about what that is.
52:56
Absolutely.
52:57  Alex
So what we are proposing
52:57
is an open analytics standard
53:01
for podcasts and podcasts.
53:03
So we learned from our work in
53:03
the standardization, that there
53:08
is a huge pain for podcasters
53:08
who want to move from one poster
53:13
to another host because they
53:13
usually lose their analytics.
53:17
And even before.
53:19
On the business side and owner
53:19
of a podcast hosting service.
53:23
I do think it's very important
53:23
that we do not hold hostage
53:28
of the data of our clients and
53:28
that we make podcasts analytics
53:32
data, which belongs to the
53:32
clients as portable as you
53:36
can, for example, in Germany,
53:36
port your cell phone number
53:39
from one provider to another.
53:40
So what we are proposing is that
53:40
all the hosts has come together
53:44
and build an open standard,
53:44
which is nothing technically
53:48
complicated that allows
53:48
publishers to get their data
53:54
back, to take ownership of their
53:54
data and to make it portable
53:58
from one house to another.
53:59
Because what we think is
53:59
that if publishers have the
54:03
freedom to choose a host that
54:03
really fits their needs, and
54:07
there are so many amazing
54:07
companies out there that have
54:10
a very different idea of how
54:10
podcast hosting could work.
54:14
I do think our whole.
54:16
Could really win and
54:16
really get the next boost.
54:20
We need to professionalize
54:20
what we love.
54:23  Sam
Yeah.
54:23
Data portability is part
54:23
of what Europe did with
54:26
the GDPR as a requirement.
54:30
So is it basically your premise
54:30
that people can have their
54:35
data, but they get it in so
54:35
many different ways, but it
54:38
doesn't make it transferrable.
54:41
And that means that if you
54:41
move from one host to the next,
54:44
suddenly that data, or you
54:44
own it and have it, can't be
54:47
uploaded and utilize, is that
54:50  Alex
exactly?
54:50
That's the problem.
54:51
There are two ideas.
54:53
So for the German measurement,
54:53
we really rely on Ross
54:57
server log files, which is
54:57
something that is pretty
55:00
hard to make portable because
55:00
it's a pretty complex thing.
55:03
So what we're thinking of is
55:03
there are some houses that
55:07
allow you to export your.
55:09
It via a CSV file for example.
55:12
And what we're thinking about
55:12
is that we host us just come
55:15
together and find an agreement
55:15
about how we structure these X.
55:21
And probably if we enable our
55:21
clients to import that back.
55:25
And if we put this on an
55:25
open source basis, it could
55:29
be something where the whole
55:29
community probably brings
55:32
podcast analytics to new level,
55:32
because we're stuck at lock
55:36
file analysis, which is not
55:36
very sufficient for advertisers.
55:40
The data we have is not the data
55:40
we would love to have and having
55:45
all the power and all the holes.
55:47
Doesn't all the people
55:47
working decentral together.
55:51
On an source project seems
55:51
like a huge chance for
55:54
the whole industry to me.
55:56  Sam
So where have you got to
55:56
so far, then this, is there an
56:00
actual proposal on the table?
56:02
Is there a document
56:02
that people can read?
56:04
Is there a website people
56:04
can go to, where are we
56:07
so far with this then?
56:09
We're
56:09  Alex
actually very
56:09
early in the process.
56:12
We're in the process that.
56:14
The proposed our idea for the
56:14
first time in public, I used
56:18
a blog I'm writing for where
56:18
we're at the column and we
56:21
are very early in the process.
56:23
So there is no finished paper,
56:23
but I do think this has to
56:27
be a collaborative process.
56:29
I would be more than happy
56:29
to connect with likewise
56:33
technology providers, podcast,
56:33
lovers around the world.
56:37
And I do think this has to
56:37
be built collaboratively.
56:40
I don't think building an
56:40
open source project starts
56:42
very good with me building
56:42
a 10 page white paper.
56:45
It should be a collaborative
56:45
process where everyone's on the
56:49
table can have their impact.
56:51
So it's very early
56:51
in the process.
56:54
And I do think we definitely
56:54
need whether it be a LinkedIn
56:58
group or whatever, but I
56:58
don't care about the way how
57:02
we collaborate as long as we
57:03  Sam
do collaborate.
57:04
Okay.
57:05
So let's assume that people
57:05
want to get involved.
57:09
I'm sure there'll
57:09
be lots of people.
57:11
What's the first step.
57:12
Can they go to a website and
57:12
register their interest or
57:16
look at some of the proposals?
57:18
Is there a forum where people
57:18
can get involved or do they
57:21
just contact you directly?
57:23
And is that the starting point?
57:25
So what we're going to do is
57:27  Alex
we're going to
57:27
open up a LinkedIn and I
57:30
will probably provide you
57:30
the link later on there.
57:33
And I do think this is a very
57:33
good idea to start and to start
57:37
discussing our ideas later on,
57:37
we must have a website for sure.
57:42
And I do think we definitely
57:42
have to go start in working
57:46
collaborative, beat on GitHub
57:46
or a, my robot or whatever.
57:50
So what I'm going to provide a
57:50
system is the LinkedIn group.
57:53
And I'm super happy for everyone
57:53
joining there and bringing
57:57
their ideas into the discussion.
57:58
Probably you could include
57:58
them in your show notes
58:00
and yeah, we could all come
58:00
together around the world.
58:04  Sam
Yeah, we certainly will
58:04
include them in the show notes.
58:07
What are the type of data
58:07
points that we want to tell?
58:10
Out of data from one host
58:10
to the other, are there some
58:16
standards that are across the
58:16
board given obviously declines
58:20
that are coming countries that
58:20
are being accessed at lists?
58:24
We even started creating
58:24
the list of the data points
58:27
that we want to capture.
58:29  Alex
It's a super
58:29
interesting question.
58:32
And the deeper you dig into
58:32
it, the more complex it gets.
58:36
So it starts with
58:36
very simple for sure.
58:37
I want to have my place.
58:39
The, the interesting thing is
58:39
that we have to bridge a lot
58:42
of different interests there.
58:44
So for example, in Europe,
58:44
with GDPR, you usually have
58:49
to anonymize IP addresses.
58:51
So probably geo data is
58:51
not as accurate as you
58:54
have it in the states or
58:54
in other jurisdictions.
58:57
For example, getting that done.
59:00
We'll be one of the major
59:00
things we have to do in
59:05
this open source group.
59:06
We probably can all agree
59:06
that having that standard that
59:10
shows me it's that podcast.
59:13
It has this many, probably
59:13
IB compliant place on that
59:17
day will be the most basic
59:17
thing we can talk about.
59:21
It's probably also 80% of the
59:21
answers people haven't podcasts.
59:26
If we dig deeper and say,
59:26
let's say device data,
59:31
like what's an iPhone.
59:32
W was it on the website is
59:32
something where a lot of
59:36
podcasts hosts have a very
59:36
similar idea of reporting it.
59:40
And I could think of a
59:40
pretty simple way to find
59:45
an agreement, how to do it.
59:46
It gets complicated.
59:48
If there are several hosts
59:48
who have a reason to handle
59:51
it differently and probably
59:51
have a very good reason
59:54
from their point of view
59:54
to handle it differently.
59:56
And you have to
59:56
find an agreement.
59:58
I do think.
59:59
It's something we really
59:59
have to get done together.
1:00:03
So the place about the
1:00:03
episode, about the time, I
1:00:08
don't think that's negotiated
1:00:08
everything else has to be
1:00:11
thought of how can we do it?
1:00:13
How will we handle the non-acute
1:00:13
Regio data in Europe versus the
1:00:18
more accurate geo data in the
1:00:18
states, will we handle devices?
1:00:22
And will it be just like
1:00:22
an open file of a billion
1:00:28
devices on the planet?
1:00:29
Or are we starting to aggregate?
1:00:31
But this is when stuff
1:00:31
really gets complex.
1:00:33
And I do think the whole
1:00:33
collective has to solve it
1:00:37
and not one person like me
1:00:37
come up here in a podcast and
1:00:41
tell the world how to do it.
1:00:42
So I'm more about to learn
1:00:42
how we can find a common
1:00:46
ground then to tell the
1:00:46
world what I think should be
1:00:49  Sam
done.
1:00:49
I think that I've seen
1:00:49
done that obviously is Adam
1:00:54
Curry and Dave Jones with.
1:00:56
Podcasts namespace to Datto,
1:00:56
but I love how they broke
1:01:01
down the problem into four
1:01:01
or five chunkable steps.
1:01:06
So he said, look,
1:01:06
this is step one.
1:01:08
We're going to just do
1:01:08
these three or four things.
1:01:10
Then step two.
1:01:11
And they created it.
1:01:13
Chat group and invited
1:01:13
people into that.
1:01:15
And then they created a get hub
1:01:15
so that it was all open source
1:01:19
that anyone could then take the
1:01:19
data and apply themselves to it
1:01:22
and watch make recommendations.
1:01:25
So I think that's, that's
1:01:25
probably one of my best