Podland News

The last word in podcasting news... every Thursday in Podland, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from 'Podcast First' River Radio in the UK, join forces to review and analyse some of the week's top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout.

https://www.podland.news

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episode 45: Chris Messina talks about Spotify Ads, the history of open formats on the social web and how ActivityPub could impact the future of Podcasting? [transcript]


Listen to James Cridland and Sam Sethi as they talk to Chris Messina about his work on OpenWeb Standards such as ActivityStreams that became ActivityPub.  He wrote this seminal post on Medium about ActivityStreams and ActivityPub in 2008

GUEST: Chris Messina is the inventor of the hashtag as it is currently used on social media platforms.  In a 2007 tweet, Messina proposed vertical/associational grouping of messages, trends, and events on Twitter by the means of hashtags. 

NEWS

  • Spotify has made a series of announcements about podcast monetisation. First up, top Anchor podcasters in the US can now be part of the Spotify Audience Network.  These ads are called “Automated ads” since they’ll be automatically inserted: if you’re with Anchor, you can join the waitlist today.

  • Anchor has also launched “Premium sponsorships”, where they sell host-read sponsor credits on your behalf: you’ll be contacted if you qualify.

  • Anchor’s original Anchor Sponsorships is now rebranded “Ambassador ads”, where you spread the word about Anchor to your listeners.

  • Spotify Ad Studio, Spotify’s self-serve ad buying service, will offer podcast ad buying “in our podcast network” (again, for the US only). 

  • Spotify has also announced it’s joined the Global Alliance of Responsible Media, added the ability to exclude sensitive topics, and improved their contextual targeting tools.

  • Separately, Spotify has published a whitepaper on the evolution of podcast advertising, including a short and selective section on podcasting’s history, which doesn’t mention Adam Curry nor Apple.

  • First look: Supercast has opened their integration with Spotify Open Access, which enables publishers to offer gated content within Spotify’s app. It’s the first subscription platform to offer the Spotify Open Access integration to all its users.


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 2021-10-07  1h16m
 
 
00:01
Welcome to Podland.
00:02
The last word in podcasting
00:02
news Podland is sponsored by
00:05
Buzzsprout here's by over a
00:05
hundred thousand podcasters
00:08
like us to host, promote
00:08
and track your Podcast and
00:11
by riverside.fm, a tool
00:11
for recording podcasts
00:14
and video interviews
00:14
in studio quality from.
00:18
It's the 7th of October, 2021.
00:21
I'm James Cridland, the
00:21
editor of pod news.net here in
00:24
Australia and Sethi the NT of
00:24
river radio eight Podcast burse
00:28
radio station here in the UK.
00:30
My name is Chris Messina and
00:30
I will be on later to talk
00:32
about Spotify ads and activity
00:32
pub, and the history of open
00:37
formats on the social web.
00:39
Hey, well, Portland's a
00:39
weekly podcast where Sam
00:41
and I delve deeper into
00:41
the week's podcasting news.
00:44
So let's get on with
00:44
the big stories and the.
00:47
Of the week is Singer
00:47
Kylie Minogue is confirmed.
00:50
She is moving back to Australia,
00:50
James, after 30 years of, I
00:54
think here in the UK, I was
00:54
listening to ABC radio Brisbane
00:57
this morning, and that was
00:57
one of the big stories that
00:59
Kylie is coming home finally.
01:02
And they also played
01:02
her brand new song.
01:04
Would you like to hear
01:04
a bit of her brand new
01:05
song, Sam, take it away.
01:07
DJ helium comes to mind is
01:07
the only word I'd say yes.
01:11
I think one of the they're
01:11
quite old people on ABC radio
01:15
Brisbane, and one, one of
01:15
the people said, what have
01:18
they done with her voice?
01:20
It's no locomotion, is it right?
01:22
Let's do the big stories
01:22
in podcasting then from
01:24
this week's pod news.
01:25
the big news is we were
01:25
introduced last night or
01:28
a couple of nights ago
01:28
to ads by anchoring new
01:31
Podcast, monitorization
01:31
suite built in for creators.
01:35
So you'll be able to
01:35
supplement your income.
01:38
They say by.
01:39
adding anchor adds to your
01:39
podcast, James, what are they
01:42
doing with anchor ads then?
01:44
Or they're doing a number
01:44
of different things.
01:45
They are adding top anchor
01:45
podcasters to be part of the
01:49
Spotify audience network.
01:52
that means that you get things
01:52
like premium sponsorships.
01:55
You'll be contacted if you
01:55
quantify automated ads, which
01:59
will be automatically inserted.
02:01
If you're with anchor
02:01
into your Podcast, you can
02:04
join the wait list today.
02:06
And they also have a thing
02:06
called ambassador ads, which
02:09
is where you talk about
02:09
anchor and how good it is.
02:12
So that's a thrill.
02:13
And the other thing on the other
02:13
side of it though, is Spotify
02:16
ad studio, which is their self
02:16
service ad buying service.
02:20
We'll offer Podcast ad
02:20
buying in our Podcast
02:24
network it's has here.
02:25
So again, All of this stuff
02:25
is for the U S only, but
02:29
it's a good place I think, to
02:29
promote podcasts and you'll
02:32
be able to buy advertising in
02:32
the Spotify podcast network,
02:36
which I'm presuming is things
02:36
like, Gimlet and Podcast
02:40
and that sort of thing.
02:40
but there should be quite an
02:40
interesting way of promoting
02:43
podcasts, I would have thought,
02:43
and, which should be quite fun.
02:46
what's your sort of thoughts
02:46
about what they've announced
02:49
or wanted to ask you is, do you
02:49
think this is the equivalent
02:53
for when bloggers were starting
02:53
out and Google AdSense for
02:56
bloggers really came out and
02:56
you could monetize, is this the
02:59
Google ad sense for podcasting?
03:01
I, to a point, I think obviously
03:01
you have to be on anchor.
03:05
It doesn't work
03:05
with anywhere else.
03:06
but, it certainly, it seems
03:06
that they've got a lot
03:09
more serious over the last
03:09
week with all of this news.
03:13
they've also joined the global
03:13
Alliance of responsible means.
03:16
which means that you'll be
03:16
able to avoid advertising
03:20
in sensitive topics, if you
03:20
want, they've improved their
03:23
contextual targeting tools.
03:25
So they're doing a bunch
03:25
of this stuff, which is
03:27
going to make them, I
03:27
think, a more interesting
03:29
place to advertise around.
03:32
certainly worthwhile
03:32
keeping an eye on that.
03:34
One of my favorite
03:34
things is they separately
03:38
published a white paper on
03:38
the evolution of Podcast
03:41
advertising and the white
03:41
paper is quite interesting.
03:44
It includes a short, and I've
03:44
written selective section
03:48
on podcasting's history.
03:50
so it mentions Dave.
03:52
But it doesn't mention either
03:52
Adam Curry or apple who have
03:57
had something to do with
03:57
the work around podcasting.
04:01
I'm not quite sure what
04:01
they're trying to do.
04:02
They're rewriting history,
04:02
but still, there we go.
04:05
That'll be interesting to
04:05
see how that goes down.
04:08
So I've got two questions
04:08
for you, James, on
04:10
this first one is.
04:12
Where will they get the
04:12
inventory for the ads?
04:14
are they assuming that the
04:14
self-service element people,
04:17
companies are just going
04:17
to sign up and record ads?
04:21
how are they going to get the
04:21
quality of the recordings,
04:23
where are they going to get the
04:23
infantry that is going to pump
04:26
self-serviced into well Podcast?
04:28
so inventory obviously will be
04:28
people signing up through anchor
04:31
to have ads in their shows.
04:35
And you'll be, I'm guessing
04:35
saying, here's where
04:38
the mid roll goes in.
04:40
You can automatically add
04:40
pre-rolls and post-sales
04:43
and stuff like that.
04:44
Although post roles are,
04:44
not always that, excellent
04:47
has brown by letter almost
04:47
says he says it a little
04:50
bit more rudely than that.
04:51
I almost think that this is
04:51
essentially Spotify trying
04:55
to be a cast with ads that
04:55
sound a bit like radio ads
05:00
inside, anchor podcasts.
05:03
And then you've also got
05:03
premium sponsorships,
05:06
which is essentially
05:06
anchor selling host, read
05:09
sponsorships on your behalf.
05:11
And that's the reason why
05:11
the premium sponsorships
05:14
are opt in and, it's up
05:14
to Spotify to choose.
05:19
Because obviously they wants
05:19
to make sure that scales
05:23
and they want to make sure
05:23
that it's really big shows
05:25
only or shows, they call it
05:25
select creators with a higher
05:30
level of listener engagement.
05:31
but it's basically, up to
05:31
them to actually choose you.
05:34
I think there's a bit of
05:34
a sort of mix there of,
05:37
everybody will be able to get
05:37
hold of these automated ads.
05:39
And if you want to advertise
05:39
in everybody's podcasts,
05:43
then you can do, but premium
05:43
sponsorships are going to be a
05:46
little bit more carefully chosen
05:46
by the folks at Spotify and.
05:51
Then we had a report a few
05:51
weeks back, which said that
05:54
ads that were not contextual
05:54
to the Podcast seem to be
05:58
juxtaposed to them in the sense
05:58
that, if your podcast is about,
06:02
I dunno, in a football, when
06:02
you've got an ad for flower
06:05
making or an out cooking,
06:05
it would seem so odd to have
06:09
that Podcast with an ad next.
06:10
Yes, I think so.
06:11
And I think that's why
06:11
they have also been working
06:14
on contextual targeting.
06:15
We already know that
06:15
Spotify does transcripts.
06:20
That's written in their terms
06:20
and conditions that went into
06:22
their terms and conditions.
06:23
I think late last year, so
06:23
they're probably using those
06:27
automated transcripts to work
06:27
out what sort of advertising
06:30
you can have in your shows.
06:32
The one other thing around
06:32
all of this is of course, the
06:35
more ways that you make it
06:35
possible to earn money through
06:38
anchor, the more problems
06:38
that anchor is going to get
06:40
in terms of pirated podcasts,
06:40
which they've had a problem
06:44
with for quite some time.
06:46
So I think it'll be interesting
06:46
seeing how Spotify and how the
06:49
anchor team, managed to police
06:49
that a little bit better.
06:52
when I went to check last
06:52
year, I had a look at the top
06:55
30, I think, podcasts, which
06:55
were out there and a third
07:00
of those were being pirated,
07:00
in anchor and just using
07:04
anchors, listener support
07:04
stuff, which is just tips.
07:07
you can imagine that there's
07:07
going to be even more of
07:09
that happening with automated
07:09
ads in there as well.
07:13
I caught up with Christmas
07:13
scene and I, Chris has been
07:16
very kindly giving us, Spotify
07:16
updates, in our DMS on Twitter.
07:22
For those who don't know,
07:22
Chris was the inventor of
07:24
the hashtag and he's been a
07:24
friend of mine for 20 years.
07:27
We met him Paris
07:27
at Le web Wando.
07:30
And I asked Chris a
07:30
little bit about what
07:32
he's up to, first of all.
07:34
And then I asked him really
07:34
what's this Spotify ads.
07:36
What's his opinion.
07:38  Chris
I'm currently head of
07:38
business development, on the
07:40
west coast for a fundraising
07:40
platform called Republic.
07:43
but I think of myself as
07:43
a man of the internet, I
07:45
bounced around in a lot
07:45
of places and, I felt like
07:47
for a while, things were.
07:48
Slowing down in terms of the
07:48
internet, there were getting
07:51
to us assess this point,
07:51
and they've just exploded
07:54
with NFTs and crypto and
07:54
all these new formats and
07:57
platforms and monetization.
07:58
So it's really been drinking
07:58
from the fire hose and trying
08:01
to stay on top of all of those
08:01
things that are happening.
08:03  Sam
it does feel like web three
08:03
dot O the ones for bad word.
08:06
It feels like it's
08:06
suddenly woken itself up
08:08
and starting to appear
08:10  Chris
so I had a conversation
08:10
with someone about this the
08:11
other day, and I think this
08:11
is worth pointing out, to your
08:14
listeners there certainly was
08:14
a web 1.0 and web 2.0 there now
08:17
seems to be like a web three.
08:20
The semantics, I think are
08:20
interesting and worth noting
08:23
because of the way in which
08:23
we assume that there's a
08:26
progression where one platform
08:26
adds on or becomes more complex
08:31
than the previous platform or
08:31
somehow improves or whatever.
08:34
I feel like this is a little
08:34
bit like, and I don't remember
08:36
if this is exactly the right
08:36
metaphor, but the iPhone X
08:38
or something was a break or
08:38
a change or a difference.
08:41
And I think web three is
08:41
a little bit more like
08:43
web one than web two.
08:45
And I also don't think that
08:45
web three again, without a 3.0,
08:49
like web three is a product
08:49
concept or conception of a
08:52
series of technologies that
08:52
work in a certain way with a
08:55
different set of assumptions
08:55
web 2.0 is almost, I don't know.
08:59
It's like a business like.
09:02
And so I guess I just,
09:02
for me, there's something
09:04
that is different.
09:05
And especially with this
09:05
audience, I think when
09:07
you're talking about, web
09:07
standards and formats and
09:09
protocols and technologies.
09:11
Yes.
09:11
Some of that was part of the
09:11
web two O world, but so much
09:14
of it was predicated on just
09:14
companies connecting to each
09:17
other in a way where there
09:17
was some standardization,
09:20
as opposed to the underlying
09:20
philosophy of what it was
09:23
that we were trying to.
09:25
And so anyways, it's
09:25
not a continuum,
09:28  Sam
I tend to agree, but the
09:28
web one today for me was a
09:30
decentralized network in many
09:30
ways while sharing Skype,
09:34  Chris
all of those
09:34
are the IRC email.
09:37  Sam
It was a
09:37
decentralized platform.
09:39
Corporates came in and sucked it
09:39
back into a centralized world.
09:44
Yes.
09:44
And we saw the effect of that
09:44
when Facebook and WhatsApp
09:47
and Instagram went down the
09:47
other day, because it was
09:49
such a central client server
09:51  Chris
model.
09:51
a lot of people forget this,
09:51
and again, we don't have to
09:53
go down like the web standard.
09:54
It's like a conversation too
09:54
much, but, Facebook was very big
09:57
in the open ID, open identity,
09:57
OAuth like conversations.
10:01
They were actually adopting
10:01
activity streams at one point.
10:03
So Facebook was part of this.
10:06
And I don't know if they did it
10:06
just to neutralize the threat of
10:10
decentralization or if they got
10:10
to the point where their product
10:12
needs required them to not
10:12
go down the path of standards
10:16
because it was too slow and
10:16
didn't fit their business goals.
10:19
And so that tension, I think,
10:19
is so important to keep in mind
10:21  Sam
And also maybe David
10:21
called and left Facebook.
10:24
And that might have been another
10:25  Chris
reason, true.
10:26
he went to the white
10:26
house so you can make
10:28
of that what you want.
10:29
We'll see what he, what
10:30  Sam
decentralizes over there.
10:32
let's start off with a
10:32
couple of things because
10:34
we've got a lot to cover.
10:35
that's done from what's
10:35
currently happening in the
10:37
news and it happened today.
10:38
Spotify ads was announced.
10:40
It came out of beta.
10:42
It's now available to all.
10:44
clients has three different
10:44
levels as an ambassador, which
10:47
is like a read only there is
10:47
a level which is for the mass.
10:51
And then there's the level
10:51
for the high end, which
10:52
is brands being aligned
10:52
to top end creators.
10:57
Is this the Google ad
10:57
sense moment where we
11:00
had it in blogging?
11:02
Is this the Podcast
11:03  Chris
moment?
11:03
I don't know if I can answer
11:03
that specifically because
11:05
one of the challenges,
11:05
the differences is that.
11:08
Spotify to the best of my
11:08
knowledge is not indexing
11:10
all Podcast across the web
11:10
and then monetizing them
11:14
and, offering access through
11:14
a search engine, That
11:16
conventional model, as it exists
11:16
is a little bit different.
11:19
Spotify wants you to
11:19
create your presence.
11:22
On Spotify as though if
11:22
you were going to let's say
11:25
Facebook and you created a
11:25
page for your business, right?
11:28
You may still have a website
11:28
that's separate, that's part
11:30
of the open web, but they
11:30
want to have something that
11:32
is normalized to their system.
11:34
And that provides the ability
11:34
to, oppress or improve or
11:37
enhance, or for example, add
11:37
programmatic inserted ads, and
11:41
then to measure engagement and
11:41
then to layer on interactive
11:44
elements like polls and Q
11:44
and a and stuff like that.
11:47
May not be portable
11:47
to other platforms.
11:49
So I think it's important to
11:49
understand some of the different
11:52
dynamics that are at play
11:52
with advertising on Spotify
11:55
and through Spotify network.
11:56
However, I think it's
11:56
incredibly important to
11:59
think about what Spotify is
11:59
ultimate ambitions are to be.
12:03
I don't know if it's like the
12:03
audio transport layer for the
12:06
internet, just as YouTube is
12:06
for video, but, The Spotify
12:09
clearly is leading into
12:09
their ad model, as opposed
12:11
to just getting subscriptions
12:11
for music that implies that
12:14
they're going to need to
12:14
continue to grow their user
12:16
base and their listener base.
12:18
And that's probably the most
12:18
important thing to take away
12:20
from a competitive perspective
12:20
in terms of the other podcasting
12:24
apps and what they're focusing.
12:25  Sam
I like this very much too,
12:25
when you and I were blogging
12:30
where we'd have a decentralized
12:30
platform, we'd have things
12:33
like, the ability for comments
12:33
to be separated and shared.
12:37
So ping backs and track backs.
12:38
If you remember those, and
12:38
then suddenly the world of
12:41
Facebook appeared and it
12:41
was like, actually I'm just
12:43
going to post there because
12:43
that's where my audience is.
12:45
And it feels The closed world
12:45
always gets faster than the
12:49
open world and Spotify, as
12:49
in this close, bringing out
12:52
new features, bringing out
12:52
new functions, but will it
12:55
just end up failing, like
12:55
most closed world ecosystems
12:59
do eventually, or do you
12:59
think it will accelerate?
13:01  Chris
I can't exactly use like
13:01
the jobs to be done framework
13:03
here, but the nature of open
13:03
projects and the coordination
13:07
costs associated with them
13:07
and getting people to agree
13:11
that the things that you want
13:11
to work on that are important
13:12
to you should be equally as
13:12
important to everyone else.
13:15
And therefore you should have
13:15
interoperability on a number
13:17
of different features and
13:17
functions is very difficult.
13:20
this is why building
13:20
standards is so much of
13:22
a, cat herding project.
13:24
you have to have
13:24
sort of a benevolent
13:25
dictator leader person.
13:27
That's shepherding the thing
13:27
forward, listening to lots
13:29
of different opinions and
13:29
perspectives and coalescing
13:33
around a certain set of goals
13:33
and maintaining a public north
13:36
star to where you want to go.
13:39
Spotify doesn't have
13:39
those same restrictions.
13:41
They can focus very intensely
13:41
on solving or serving the job
13:45
to be done for the listener,
13:45
which is giving them the most
13:48
interesting, relevant content
13:48
in the formats that serve them
13:51
best and giving them control.
13:54
or perhaps working on behalf of
13:54
the user to provide more control
13:57
over the playback experience
13:57
than what, the conventional
14:00
Podcast or might prefer.
14:02
And so that's a very
14:02
different dynamic and
14:03
different relationship, right?
14:04
So Facebook took on that role
14:04
of normalizing all content
14:08
so that it appeared to be the
14:08
same during the newsfeed, and
14:12
then could really focus on and
14:12
do user testing at a massive
14:15
scale on how users responded
14:15
and reacted and interacted
14:19
with that content to gain more.
14:21
Sheriff mind more attention.
14:23
The open protocols and
14:23
formats have never really been
14:26
about those sort of goals.
14:28
It's really about or at
14:28
least the way I got to see it.
14:31
It's been more
14:31
about maintaining.
14:33
I guess ownership and control of
14:33
the content for the creators and
14:37
being more on the creator side.
14:39
But that actually is in some
14:39
ways it inhibits adoption
14:43
and growth, unless you really
14:43
figure out how to, make a
14:47
really brilliant express.
14:49
Now Podcast did that, but I
14:49
robotically, they grew through
14:52
the centralization of the apple
14:52
podcast app and experience.
14:55
And that directory, there were
14:55
of course decentralized Podcast
14:58
players that users could use.
15:00
But I would imagine that
15:00
the defaults really matter
15:02
and that the fact that there
15:02
was a default Podcast player
15:05
on, Macko S or at least the
15:05
iPhone, was really critical
15:07
or at least maybe through
15:07
iTunes, et cetera, was really
15:10
critical to gaining that.
15:12
Users and that decentralization
15:12
may or may not have
15:15
had that much of a
15:15
contributing aspect to it.
15:18
Now there's plenty of haters
15:18
that are going to come at
15:19
me probably about that.
15:21
But I think I would distinguish
15:21
between what is a good
15:23
product and what necessarily
15:23
uses decentralization or
15:27
open formats and protocols
15:27
to achieve the goal that
15:29
they're trying to get to.
15:31
So
15:33  Sam
you mentioned
15:33
the benevolent person.
15:35
it seems that the father has
15:35
awoken carry along with that.
15:41
He's been named the pod
15:41
Sage now, Dave Jones.
15:45
And they've been doing some
15:45
great work with podcasting
15:47
too, that they've taken RSS.
15:49
They've evolved it.
15:50
They've added a new
15:50
namespace to it.
15:52
They've created a separate
15:52
index to the one you just
15:54
mentioned with apple and
15:54
they're beginning to add
15:57
things like, micropayments
15:57
into the system as well.
16:01
So have you ever had a
16:01
look at any of the work
16:03
they've been doing at all?
16:05  Chris
I've certainly
16:05
listened to.
16:05
things that, you've talked
16:05
about that are coming.
16:07
I certainly think about
16:07
them from both a feature set
16:09
perspective and then also
16:09
an implementation aspect.
16:12
And it's very interesting, it
16:12
feels a little anachronistic in
16:15
some respects, perhaps because
16:15
I've been in this world for such
16:18
a long time and have worked on a
16:18
number of standards and formats,
16:20
some of which have succeeded
16:20
and some of which have failed.
16:23
And I do think The work, for
16:23
example, that I did on something
16:28
that was called originally the
16:28
diesel project, D I S O not to
16:31
be confused with big clouds,
16:31
new name, that does no project,
16:33
And out of that came an effort
16:33
to standardize activities that
16:37
could be syndicated between
16:37
different decentralized, social
16:41
networking, end points, the
16:41
concept being that anybody
16:43
could run their own blog,
16:43
they could publish activities.
16:45
Chris read a book, Sam
16:45
commented on Chris's video
16:49
and those things could be
16:49
syndicated so that anybody
16:52
could subscribe to anybody else.
16:53
And you could filter the
16:53
activities that you receive
16:55
based on your own interests.
16:57
Now that concept and those
16:57
ideas and those primitive.
17:01
Seem completely useful in the
17:01
Podcast 2.0 space, or at least
17:05
in terms of the attention of
17:05
syndicating, rich audio or
17:10
rich media around with, an
17:10
additional layer of context or
17:13
data about data, the metadata.
17:15
so it's, I find it
17:15
just like interesting,
17:17
to contemplate that.
17:19
And I don't fully
17:19
understand their goals.
17:20
I don't know what's
17:20
animating this.
17:21
I don't know.
17:21
What's motivating it.
17:22
Oftentimes when it
17:22
comes to these open
17:24
standards, open formats.
17:26
Efforts it's against some
17:26
big evildoer, it's like
17:30
the desktop or Microsoft
17:30
or something like that.
17:32
And so if the reason why the
17:32
pod father has come back is
17:35
to take something back from
17:35
apple because now apple has
17:38
a commercial interest in it.
17:39
I totally relate to that.
17:41
just another sort of aside,
17:41
as you mentioned, I'm best
17:43
known for having created the
17:43
hashtag and getting that idea
17:46
started and out there, and
17:46
it's led to, thousands and
17:48
tens of thousands of flowers,
17:48
blooming, and that's the whole
17:50
idea of formats and standards.
17:52
There was a time in 2011, when
17:52
I believe Twitter attempted to.
17:58
Trademark the hashtag because
17:58
they realized that Instagram
18:01
was starting to monetize it and
18:01
it was making money off of it.
18:03
And Twitter suddenly realized
18:03
that actually they wanted to
18:05
make a lot more money off of
18:05
it because of course it, it
18:07
started on Twitter and this of
18:07
course was very offensive to me.
18:12
And, because I had originally
18:12
brought the idea of that.
18:15
To Twitter and Twitter had
18:15
said, that's a stupid idea.
18:17
That's never going to catch on.
18:18
I then subsequently went to
18:18
the decentralized, open web
18:21
and said, Hey guys, what do
18:21
you think about the solution?
18:23
And, gradually they adopted it.
18:24
And then Twitter
18:24
acquired those companies.
18:26
And, the idea took off, but.
18:28
I suppose what I'm relating
18:28
to in a similar way is when
18:31
Twitter sort of decided
18:31
that they own this idea,
18:33
which they'd originally
18:33
rejected in, which was never
18:35
designed just for Twitter.
18:37
I became angry and stood
18:37
up and said, oh, I'm the
18:40
inventor of the hashtag.
18:41
Like you guys can't have it.
18:42
I wonder if something similar
18:42
is happening with, the Podcast
18:44
2.0 work, to take it away
18:44
from the centralizing early.
18:49
That a platform or company like
18:49
apple may have where they're
18:52
privileging their own software
18:52
and their own platforms at
18:55
the expense of the independent
18:55
community that really gave
18:59
them so much value for so long.
19:01  Sam
I think it's a combination
19:01
of that and stagnation,
19:04
I think I've called.
19:05
The apple Podcast, client, the
19:05
internet Explorer, podcasting.
19:10  Chris
But it's funny that
19:10
you say that actually.
19:11
Sorry to cut you off, but,
19:11
what does occur to me is that
19:14
the things that are being
19:14
built into a Podcast 2.0,
19:17
eventually you do arrive at
19:17
almost building a browser.
19:20
And I experienced this.
19:22
When, now in Twitter, they're
19:22
adding in a bunch of these
19:24
things, like the value for
19:24
value stuff, where you can tip
19:27
people you're using Bitcoin
19:27
or using any, Conventional
19:30
payments system or a number
19:30
of sets of payment systems.
19:34
And once you go to
19:34
de-centralization with tipping,
19:36
that's very interesting, but
19:36
now you're starting to look
19:37
more and more like a browser.
19:39
And so I think that starts
19:39
to beg the question of
19:41
what is a browser, what
19:41
should a browser do?
19:43
What are the formats that a
19:43
browser needs to render and
19:45
Podcast 2.0 might just be
19:45
another format that a browser
19:48
could eventually render.
19:49
And so it doesn't have to be
19:49
specifically about Podcast.
19:51
Actually.
19:52
I haven't tried it yet, but
19:52
I know the brave browser has
19:55
that it's support for platelet.
19:56
And I know historical, there
19:56
are other browsers that have the
19:59
ability to play media because
19:59
media is then presumed to be a
20:03
first-class citizen on the web.
20:04
It's not just about documents.
20:06
So as a thought exercise, it
20:06
might be worth thinking about
20:10
what would a browser be that
20:10
natively supported podcasts.
20:13
And does it have to be
20:13
something that is separate?
20:15
And if it's not separate, what
20:15
formats or protocols could.
20:21
Podcast 2.0, prioritize in order
20:21
to see more adoption and get
20:26
more integration into existing
20:26
web standards, web formats.
20:30  Sam
I want to take
20:30
you back a fraction.
20:31
because you were there.
20:33
I remember Being around when
20:33
the micro format standards
20:36
were being pushed very hard.
20:37
but you were there
20:37
when RSS was around.
20:39
I was in Netscape at the time.
20:41
And one of the things that came
20:41
out was this thing called atom.
20:47
I just want to understand
20:47
why did atom a car?
20:51
Cause it feels like with
20:51
the work that's going on
20:54
with Podcast two Datto,
20:54
that it's actually the work
20:57
that you did 10 years ago.
20:58
That is now beginning
20:58
to surface again.
21:01
So why did that occur?
21:03
And then that was the
21:03
basis for activity streams.
21:08  Chris
I'm going to look
21:08
this up real quick, cause
21:09
I forget the name of the
21:09
person that actually.
21:12
His name is like on the
21:12
tip of my tongue, who came
21:14
up with the spec for Adam.
21:16
and again, so many of these
21:16
things are either against or
21:19
in opposition to something
21:19
that previously existed.
21:23
My recollection of Adam
21:23
was that it was a slightly.
21:28
Ah, the cleaner is probably
21:28
not the right word to use, but
21:31
maybe easier to use or that
21:31
there was something about it
21:33
that relative RSS, was a tighter
21:33
specification or more formalized
21:39
or something along those lines.
21:40
and I guess I would add
21:40
to that, that RSS seemed
21:44
very tightly coupled and
21:44
obviously it came out of Dave
21:46
Warner's work on outlines.
21:47
and if everything is an
21:47
outline and that's one approach
21:49
to content, Adam, I think
21:49
tried to, again, I forget
21:54
the specific differences
21:54
between, Adam and RSS.
21:56
But what I will say is
21:56
that we decided to format
22:00
activity streams in the
22:00
atom format for two reasons.
22:03
One, because we wanted
22:03
to have a fallback.
22:05
Blogs and other
22:05
platforms emitted an
22:09
atom based activity feed.
22:10
It could still be read by
22:10
conventional feed readers.
22:13
So it was really
22:13
an adoption play.
22:15
What ended up happening.
22:16
And this is a lesson that
22:16
I took away from that time
22:19
period was that it took so
22:19
long for us to standardize the
22:22
activity stream spec that by
22:22
the time we did the activity.
22:27
Streams Jason format was so
22:27
much more pleasant to work with
22:31
so much more straightforward.
22:32
Like people really wanted that.
22:34
And so I was so focused and I
22:34
was informed by the experience
22:39
That if you just build something
22:39
that is slightly different
22:41
than what people are already
22:41
doing, you can nudge them in
22:43
the direction of where you want
22:43
them to go and what I missed.
22:47
And I think this is always
22:47
something that now I'm
22:49
probably pretty paranoid about
22:49
is that there is a better
22:52
product or a better solution.
22:53
That's like right
22:53
around the corner.
22:55
If you actually fundamentally
22:55
reassess the principles of what
22:58
you're trying to solve for.
23:00
And when it comes
23:00
to Podcast 2.0.
23:04
Are there better formats, for
23:04
what you're trying to achieve.
23:06
Are there different ways
23:06
to solve this, that build
23:08
upon other people's work?
23:10
And by building on that other
23:10
people's work, they're willing
23:12
to then adopt what you've built.
23:14
In other words, Seeing sort
23:14
of the way you want the world
23:17
to work and you're using the
23:17
things that are already well
23:19
adopted rather than coming up
23:19
with your own reinvention of
23:22
the thing that might be a little
23:22
bit more coherent, but again,
23:24
it takes a long time to herd
23:24
the cats and it takes a long
23:26
time to get agreement, then
23:26
takes a long time to build the
23:29
libraries and then to see it
23:29
adoption, et cetera, et cetera.
23:31
So I think the payments
23:31
thing is a really good
23:33
example of this where maybe
23:33
value for value in the
23:35
podcasting space makes sense.
23:37
and, or maybe there is a.
23:40
Tag in HTML tag that any
23:40
content could add, like
23:45
to the top of the feed or
23:45
to the top of a webpage.
23:48
if Twitter did this for all
23:48
profiles, for example, Relic
23:50
was payment and it links off to
23:50
your preferred payment profile
23:54
that could solve the problem
23:54
without needing to reinvent it
23:56
within that, Podcast Depot spec.
23:59
So I'm just trying to
23:59
explain, we started with that.
24:02
Because we want
24:02
it to have a back.
24:04
And we wanted everybody
24:04
that already adopted the
24:07
Adam protocol, the Adam
24:07
format in their feed
24:09
reader to be able to read
24:09
activity streams, formatted.
24:12  Sam
So extending that forward,
24:12
he took activity streams, and
24:16
then it became activity pub.
24:18
And the reason I say it's
24:18
come around full circle is
24:21
because Martin and Benjamin,
24:21
who working on some of this
24:25
stuff are looking at a proposal
24:25
within the podcast to, to own
24:29
namespace for cross commenting,
24:29
which again, in my head was
24:34
a bit like ping back in track
24:34
bags, but evolved right.
24:38
And what was interesting that
24:38
it suddenly jumped onto my
24:41
radar is when they were using
24:41
activity pub as the format
24:45
basis to do that, which I then
24:45
suddenly went, hang on a minute.
24:48
we've gone down
24:48
this wheel before.
24:51
What are they trying to
24:51
achieve Cause then that
24:53
suddenly says, you've gone
24:53
RSS to activity pub, which is
24:56
what you've just talked about.
24:57
But.
24:58
They've jumped the shark
24:58
with no atom in the middle.
25:00
So what is the benefit
25:00
of activity about to
25:02
explain what activity pub
25:02
eventually became and
25:05
What would be the benefit of
25:05
using in Podcast index today?
25:07  Chris
I don't, I, I don't
25:07
want to get ahead of my skis
25:09
because I'm not a developer.
25:10
And so I'm speaking to these
25:10
things more conceptually
25:13
than implementation.
25:14
And so I'm going to be very
25:14
clear about my level of
25:17
sophistication around this, but
25:17
I can explain a few things, I
25:20
think conceptually, and then in
25:20
terms of the reason why they're
25:23
designed the way that they were.
25:24
as I recall, there was a, an
25:24
effort and, Brad, Fitzpatrick.
25:29
he was at Google
25:29
for a long time.
25:30
He's done a bunch of stuff
25:30
in the open source world.
25:32
He wrote the first
25:32
spec for open ID.
25:34
He also wrote something called
25:34
pubsub hubbub and pubs up hubbub
25:38
is essentially a relay service
25:38
that allows an individual to
25:41
subscribe, to get notified
25:41
when there's new content.
25:43
of course in the world of
25:43
syndication, you have push
25:45
and you have pull and.
25:47
There are various efficiencies
25:47
and reasons why you'd want
25:50
to use one format or the
25:50
other, but push allowed
25:53
us to move to a different
25:53
architecture of content.
25:55
So rather than polling, where
25:55
you're constantly knocking on
25:58
someone's door and asking, Hey,
25:58
you got anything new, every
26:00
30 seconds or five minutes or
26:00
whatever, push allows you to
26:03
say, Hey, I want to subscribe
26:03
to, your magazine, so to speak.
26:06
And when you have new content,
26:06
just send it to this address.
26:08
So you register an
26:08
address and then you get
26:10
stuff sent back to you.
26:11
Activity pub was a way to
26:11
build on that concept in
26:15
that work so that you could
26:15
essentially subscribe to
26:18
a whole bunch of different
26:18
emitters of activities.
26:20
And then when those activities
26:20
would arrive in your aggregator,
26:24
they could be deduped and
26:24
decoupled, and they could be
26:26
made sense because, if I'm
26:26
syndicating my activities
26:28
to a bunch of different
26:28
receivers, I don't want to
26:31
get bombarded with a bunch of.
26:33
comments or whatever, right?
26:35
You also want to be able to
26:35
do roll-ups where you can say,
26:37
Chris commented on five of
26:37
your recent episodes, right?
26:40
Because you haven't checked
26:40
in three days or something, so
26:43
you need to be able to dedupe
26:43
and et cetera and so forth.
26:45
and so that's where
26:45
that came from now.
26:47
I think it's interesting
26:47
that the idea of adding
26:50
comments in a de-centralized
26:50
context in the Podcast space
26:53
might appear to be novel.
26:55
But in fact, it's not again, the
26:55
reason why I modeled activity
26:59
streams, the way that I did.
27:00
RSS.
27:01
And Adam made an assumption
27:01
about the relationship between
27:04
the author, which we renamed
27:04
as the actor and the content.
27:09
The assumption in RSS and Adam
27:09
was that the author wrote the
27:13
content that was specified in
27:13
the, the feed or the format.
27:17
And I said, one,
27:17
that doesn't mean.
27:19
I could've commented on it.
27:21
I could have taken a photo.
27:23
I could have shared it.
27:24
there's all sorts of verbs.
27:25
I go to listen to it
27:25
that are worth capturing
27:28
in a feed format.
27:29
And then the object itself
27:29
doesn't have to be a blog
27:31
post, but we can start with
27:31
that as the assumption.
27:34
And so all of that is like
27:34
where that started from.
27:36
And then we added the different
27:36
verbs and the different
27:38
objects and indirect objects,
27:38
to model both language, but
27:42
also what we were seeing.
27:43
feeds at the time and the
27:43
activity pub model sprang
27:48
out of that when there was
27:48
a realization, especially
27:50
in corporate land and IBM,
27:50
ironically was actually a
27:53
big proponent of this, that
27:53
there was a realization that
27:55
different companies or different
27:55
orgs, or even different groups
27:58
within a large enterprise might
27:58
want to subscribe or update to
28:00
each other via this feed format.
28:03
And so that's where that
28:03
concept, came from and
28:05
where it grew its relevance.
28:07
And I would say there was
28:07
like a gardener hype cycle
28:09
Boom and bust where there
28:09
was a lot of hype in the
28:11
beginning, a lot of excitement
28:11
about decentralization.
28:14
And then there was a winter
28:14
of despair where the workout
28:16
really hard and, Facebook and
28:16
Twitter and the rest took a
28:19
lot of oxygen out of the room.
28:21
And, I moved on and did other
28:21
things and other people left.
28:24
And, but then it's, one of the
28:24
beauties of working on open
28:28
standards that open formats,
28:28
especially that are published
28:29
openly on the web is that you
28:29
have some of their enterprising
28:32
person come along and they
28:32
finally have a use case where
28:35
they finally feel the pain.
28:36
And so mass, Don was one
28:36
of the first that actually
28:38
adopted activity pub.
28:40
And I would say in a
28:40
background, radiation kind
28:42
of way, popularize the
28:42
format, kept it going.
28:45
And now it seems like
28:45
it's having its day.
28:46
I wanna say.
28:48
eight or nine years after,
28:48
we started that work.
28:50
so it goes,
28:51  Sam
And to be fair, to take
28:51
Jones, he's taken the popup
28:55
sub stuff and he's come up
28:55
with pulping, which is a real
28:58
time mechanism for, when you
28:58
publish your Podcast, being
29:02
alerting to the intakes.
29:03
And then, so again,
29:03
they're all parallels
29:06  Chris
and at this point
29:06
there's a lot more.
29:08
I think awareness of the
29:08
patterns and exposure
29:11
to the patterns.
29:12
And so whereas like when we
29:12
were working on this in the
29:14
beginning, these things were
29:14
really hard, and setting up
29:16
a server that would always
29:16
be on and available, for for
29:19
thousands of pings all the time.
29:20
Like just wasn't something
29:20
that you necessarily did.
29:22
Cause it was expensive now.
29:23
Obviously it's not
29:23
expensive at all.
29:25
And so you can try these
29:25
things and you can spin them
29:27
up and it's no big deal.
29:28
The other thing that I wanted
29:28
to remind us of John Panzer,
29:30
who I worked with at Google.
29:31
and it was a big advocate
29:31
for these things.
29:33
Also wrote a format called
29:33
salmon, which was the concept of
29:36
being able to comment on other
29:36
people's blog posts remotely,
29:39
essentially the concept of
29:39
salmon swimming upstream.
29:42
And use this model
29:42
to federate comments.
29:45
and again, like we solve these
29:45
problems now, granted maybe
29:48
there some tweaks or adjustments
29:48
or updates to some of the
29:51
formatting that you might use.
29:52
But the core concepts I
29:52
think are pretty good.
29:55
And they went through a
29:55
number of rounds of revisions
29:57
and, just, lots of eyeballs
29:57
were on these things.
29:59
and they were also licensed
29:59
in a way that should allow
30:02
anybody to use them without
30:02
getting permission from anybody.
30:04  Sam
So is there any
30:04
other protocols, formats
30:08
content that you worked
30:08
on that might be relevant?
30:10
we've touched on activity,
30:10
problem solving, but anything
30:13
else that you might think be
30:14  Chris
useful?
30:15
the other one.
30:16
we worked on was something
30:16
called portable contacts.
30:19
And this is something that
30:19
justice smart, particularly
30:21
championed, I believe
30:21
he's still at Google.
30:23
and that was really to take
30:23
the V card specification and
30:27
modernize it to be compatible
30:27
with Jason and to specify
30:31
the details of a person.
30:32
So it would be almost a
30:32
one-to-one mapping in terms
30:35
of what's in like your
30:35
apple address book or your
30:37
contact book with, that.
30:40
So I believe that format
30:40
is still, probably out
30:41
there somewhere on the web.
30:43
I think the website is down,
30:43
but that is one of those.
30:45
So the idea for was to
30:45
provide, and to motivate a
30:50
number of formats and standards
30:50
that would allow us to
30:51
decentralize the social web.
30:53
So there was
30:53
identity information.
30:54
which was portable contacts,
30:54
and your friends there was
30:57
identity and authentication
30:57
that was open ID authorization
31:00
and access to APIs that was
31:00
OAuth, activities, which would
31:03
allow you to syndicate the web
31:03
that was, of course activity
31:06
streams, and then activity pub.
31:07
and then salmon
31:07
was like crossing.
31:08
posting and stuff like that.
31:10
So I think as I recall,
31:10
those are the major
31:12
ones that we worked on.
31:14
Oh, and you also asked
31:14
about, blue sky, which is
31:16
Twitter's initiative to try
31:16
to decentralize Twitter, from
31:20
what I understand and, they've
31:20
hired a bunch of people, who
31:23
are in that space and they're
31:23
working on this stuff and.
31:25
It's unclear if, for
31:25
how it might advance.
31:28
But my sense is that Jack
31:28
Dorsey probably sees a world
31:30
in which Twitter will gain
31:30
an enormous amount of value.
31:35
If it does learn to decentralize
31:35
itself and allow for almost
31:38
Quasi government organizations
31:38
to run their Twitter nodes
31:41
and then to inter-operate
31:41
or to connect across
31:44
borders in different places.
31:45
And so on, I know he's
31:45
really big on Africa.
31:48
I know crypto is
31:48
really big in Africa.
31:50
I know it's no coincidence
31:50
that the tipping stuff that
31:52
he's working on Twitter, proper
31:52
isn't, being informed by some of
31:55
the things that I think he sees,
31:55
going on elsewhere in the world.
31:57
So when it comes to aligning
31:57
the Podcast 2.0 stuff with.
32:01
And initiative that may
32:01
in gains, some really
32:04
important traction.
32:05
I do think blue sky has
32:05
at least looking at.
32:07  Sam
it'd be interesting to
32:07
see how they progress that.
32:09
there's a lot of blue sky
32:09
thinking right now and not
32:12
to play on the same puns,
32:12
but no activity right now.
32:15  Chris
no, that's not true.
32:16
I would say in the last like
32:16
month and a half, there's been
32:18
a bit more activity now that
32:18
isn't to say that it's not
32:20
going to be a total dead end.
32:22
it's hard to innovate these
32:22
things inside of big companies,
32:24
the framing of blue sky.
32:26
Should provide cloud cover, in
32:26
the sense that the people who
32:30
are working on it get to go, and
32:30
re-imagine what Twitter could
32:32
be if it actually had stuck to.
32:34
And it's, I'll point this
32:34
out Twitter has started out
32:36
as a decentralized platform.
32:37
Twitter started out
32:37
interoperating with XMPP
32:40
and with Jabber like that,
32:40
like Blaine cook, one of the
32:43
original architects of Twitter,
32:43
worked on these things.
32:46
And that's where a lot of
32:46
these concepts came from.
32:47
The people who built these
32:47
platforms, I would say, besides
32:49
mark Zuckerberg, where all
32:49
roads lead to Rome called
32:52
Facebook, built and believed
32:52
in decentralization and the
32:55
need for decentralization,
32:55
but the economic reality and
32:59
the need to, build and move
32:59
quickly and to iterate and to
33:02
hire teams and stuff like that.
33:03
let us down a different path.
33:04
So that's why the web three
33:04
and web two thing I think
33:06
is so interesting because
33:06
I think web three has
33:09
more to do with at least.
33:11
Web one that I was part of
33:11
in 2005, especially with
33:13
Barcamp and with coworking.
33:15
And a lot of those
33:15
things were meant to be
33:16
decentralized, not owned
33:16
by any central authorities.
33:19
And then the very thing that
33:19
I was most worried about, the
33:20
money came into the system
33:20
and gummed everything up and,
33:24
some people have made good
33:24
on that, but there's also the
33:27
harms that come with that.
33:27  Sam
Chris, I'm going to
33:27
let you rock and roll.
33:29
Cause you've got your Podcast.
33:31  Chris
Yes.
33:31
actually it's a funny story
33:31
and I think it's, it might be
33:33
interesting for you to just,
33:33
I was a long-time listener
33:35
to the tech meme ride home
33:35
show, which Bryan McCollough
33:38
does, it's a daily show.
33:39
It's 15 minutes gives you like
33:39
the top news, essentially, an
33:42
audio version of what on that.
33:44
And during the pandemic, I
33:44
was living by myself and I
33:47
was like going on these daily
33:47
walks and I was listening
33:49
to a ton of podcasts.
33:50
And every day I'd listen
33:50
to a show and I'd have
33:52
stuff to say, I'd be like
33:52
angry or be worked up.
33:55
And I was, by myself,
33:55
cause it was a pandemic.
33:57
And so one day I just
33:57
reached out to him.
33:58
I was like, Hey Brian, like,
33:58
why don't we go on clubhouse?
34:00
Cause I really want to
34:00
talk to you about this
34:01
story or something.
34:03
And he said, yes.
34:04
I tried a bunch of things that
34:04
were like way over produced
34:06
and didn't really work.
34:07
but eventually, it just
34:07
turned out into sort of a
34:09
commentary show between him
34:09
and I bring the Silicon
34:11
valley product perspective.
34:13
and he brings the internet
34:13
history perspective.
34:15
He wrote a whole book on it.
34:16
and I think, we have a really
34:16
good kind of cadence and vibe.
34:19
we do record typically every
34:19
Wednesday at 6:00 PM PST
34:23
and we go for about an hour.
34:24
So sometimes we have some guests
34:24
and we just kinda talk about
34:26
what's going on in the world
34:27  Sam
But you're not doing
34:27
them on Twitter spaces
34:29  Chris
yes.
34:30
And a big part of that really
34:30
comes down to audience.
34:32
I have such a big, following
34:32
an audience and just who
34:34
I engage with on Twitter.
34:36
I think clubhouse has done an
34:36
amazing job with their product.
34:38
I think in many ways
34:38
it's a superior product,
34:40
but in terms of.
34:42
I learned this on Google
34:42
plus if your friends aren't
34:44
there, then it's not very
34:44
much of a social network.
34:46
And so that is one of
34:46
the reasons why we're
34:47
on Twitter space.
34:49
So
34:49  Sam
in going back to Podcast
34:49
and cause one of the things I
34:51
talked to James a lot about,
34:51
my radio station, we call it
34:55
a Podcast first radio station.
34:56
Cause it shows only one
34:56
hour and we record those
34:59
podcasts, but we happen to
34:59
just broadcast them live.
35:03
Which was the radio part.
35:04
So we just say that, look,
35:04
you can tune into the radio
35:07
station and hear the Podcast in
35:07
effect going out live, or you
35:12
can subscribe to them later.
35:13
So with Twitter spaces and
35:13
these live audio platforms
35:17
like greenroom and stuff, what
35:17
are your thoughts are, do you
35:20
think that live element to
35:20
podcasting is a good thing
35:23
or is it a separate function?
35:25  Chris
it's interesting, There's
35:25
I wouldn't call this like a sunk
35:28
cost, challenge, but in some
35:28
ways, you and I have under the
35:30
place where we have an audience
35:30
and we're established in some
35:34
respects and we have our habits
35:34
and the places that we hang
35:37
out, we have our watering holes
35:37
and I think there's a younger
35:40
audience that is just coming to
35:40
the internet now, that are just
35:44
leaving their Snapchats and,
35:44
take Talks and they're starting
35:46
to interact with the world
35:46
in a new way and live audio.
35:51
For that generation
35:51
is going to be normal.
35:54
And so just as they're used
35:54
to hopping into a discord and
35:58
idling in discord or seeing
35:58
what's going on and observing
36:01
texts streaming through like
36:01
the matrix, I think social audio
36:04
may have a similar resonance
36:04
for a whole new demographic.
36:09
Where they assume interactivity,
36:09
they assume the ability
36:13
to get up on stage.
36:14
And so it's not sufficient
36:14
to just say, this is a,
36:16
a live radio show and you
36:16
can call in and listen in,
36:19
over terrestrial airwaves.
36:22
It's the interactive aspect that
36:22
you can choose to engage in.
36:25
That makes it a fundamentally
36:25
different, I would say job to
36:28
be done and level of engagement.
36:30
That, isn't the same when
36:30
you're listening after the fact.
36:33
And it's, non-interactive, I
36:33
think if you think about books
36:35
and you think about blog posts
36:35
allowed you to interact with
36:37
the author in a very direct and
36:37
immediate way that, previously
36:41
was not really possible.
36:42
So I would just cage
36:42
it in those worlds.
36:44
What I'm noticing in myself.
36:45
And even the feedback that I got
36:45
some times is that the way that
36:48
we do the technique ride home
36:48
show on Twitter spaces, it is
36:51
very conventional radio where
36:51
sometimes we'll open up the
36:53
floor, but for the most part,
36:53
we're not, it's not very social.
36:56
And that's really because
36:56
I'm trying to create an
36:58
experience for the, asynchronous
36:58
listeners afterwards.
37:03
And, I have listened
37:03
to some spaces that
37:05
are, open and freeform.
37:07
Sometimes the
37:07
experience is good.
37:09
Sometimes it's really
37:09
not like you're not
37:10
getting that liveliness.
37:11
And you're like, why
37:11
am I listening to this
37:12
person blather on,
37:13
And I think it's worth it to
37:13
keep in mind like what people
37:16
are going for and what the
37:16
experiences that they're seeking
37:18
and then to play to those
37:18
strengths when it makes sense.
37:21  Sam
Two final
37:21
questions for you.
37:23
would you.
37:24
Move to a
37:24
subscription-based model.
37:26
Where do you think your head
37:26
is around subscriptions?
37:28
Right now?
37:28
Both in the podcasting
37:28
on Twitter spaces model,
37:31  Chris
I'm very concerned.
37:32
to be honest, I think, money
37:32
always has a way of making
37:34
things a little bit weird and
37:34
I don't know how I feel about.
37:38
Like working for my audience
37:38
versus working for myself
37:41
and my own interests.
37:42
And this is a real
37:42
tension point.
37:44
And I think there's a real
37:44
generational divide because I
37:47
probably wouldn't trust myself
37:47
if I were somebody else to
37:50
always pay for the content
37:50
that I think is the best of
37:52
the most valuable, like the
37:52
tipping instinct isn't native
37:57
to me or to our generation yet.
37:59
Whereas a younger generation
37:59
growing up says, all
38:01
this other content sucks.
38:03
And the web sucks and it's
38:03
been overwhelmed by ads and
38:06
it's all native advertising.
38:07
And so I can't trust anything.
38:09
I know that I need to water
38:09
the garden that grows the
38:12
plants that I want to eat.
38:13
Namely, the bloggers, the
38:13
podcasters, the streamers that
38:16
are producing content that
38:16
I'm actually interested in.
38:18
And I want to show them that
38:18
I'm paying attention to them
38:20
with something that is very
38:20
valuable to me, which is both
38:22
my attention and my currency.
38:24
So if I were to move in that
38:24
direction, I do worry of
38:27
course, that I would lose.
38:29
And then lose influence.
38:31
But on the other hand,
38:31
having that direct
38:32
relationship might mean
38:32
that I produce better stuff.
38:34
That's targeted at a very
38:34
specific set of individuals.
38:38
So I'm conflicted.
38:39
I understand that you can
38:39
do a hybrid approach and
38:42
that's what I'm exploring.
38:43
I have my own creator coin on
38:43
the rally platform, which is
38:46
a side chain and I'm exploring
38:46
things where, you know, maybe
38:49
I have a private discord and,
38:49
people can join that to have
38:52
more direct interaction with me.
38:54
But I just, I want to be very
38:54
cautious and thoughtful and
38:56
mindful about the nature of
38:56
how that relationship evolves.
39:00
I have enough people that don't
39:00
pay me anything that expect and
39:02
demand my time that if suddenly
39:02
I put a price tag on my time,
39:06
it's got to be very expensive.
39:07
And then that sort of
39:07
limits the number of people
39:09
who can interact with me.
39:11
And that friction may
39:11
or may not be actually
39:13
in my best interest.
39:14  Sam
Chris.
39:15
Thank you so
39:15  Chris
much for your time.
39:16
And thanks for indulging me
39:18
Chris Messina.
39:19
That was a great interview.
39:20
I found that
39:20
absolutely fascinating.
39:23
And, loads to unpack in there.
39:25
I think one of the things that
39:25
I thought was most interesting
39:28
was he was there talking about
39:28
Facebook and Twitter and the
39:33
origin of those two services
39:33
as being really open as
39:37
being web 2.0, and I remember
39:37
you could get a RSS feed of
39:43
your, newsfeed in Facebook.
39:45
You could grab an
39:45
RSS feed of that.
39:47
You could grab an RSS feed
39:47
of anybody's Twitter updates.
39:51
And, it's interesting to
39:51
see how quite a lot of
39:54
that has been pulled out
39:54
of all of those services.
39:58
So they're much
39:58
less interoperable.
40:01
So I thought it was a, a really
40:01
interesting look back at how
40:04
things were, and also, his
40:04
color on why the Podcast index
40:10
exists, what Adam and Dave
40:10
might be planning on doing.
40:13
I'm not necessarily
40:13
sure is entirely.
40:15
But on the other hand, it's
40:15
really interesting to hear
40:18
his point of view on that.
40:20
really interesting interview.
40:23
I think with Facebook and
40:23
Twitter, he was talking about,
40:27
Blaine cook and, Dave recording.
40:28
who'd worked with him on the
40:28
open standards a lot, along
40:31
with several other people.
40:32
and so those people were, there
40:32
was a very tight knit group
40:35
and they had just happened
40:35
to be working in those big
40:38
behemoths at the same time.
40:39
So that's why I think a
40:39
lot of the open standards
40:41
were creeping in, but as
40:41
he said, and open standards
40:44
take forever to implement.
40:46
And commercial pressure means
40:46
that you probably have to
40:50
bypass the open standards if
40:50
you're going to progress as a
40:53
business, which is probably what
40:53
Twitter and Facebook had to do.
40:55
But I do think.
40:57
Open standards can take an
40:57
awfully long time or open
41:01
standards can be really fast.
41:03
And I think that's probably one
41:03
of the big differences between
41:05
Podcast index and virtually.
41:07
Anything else that I have
41:07
been working on is that,
41:11
you get an interesting
41:11
idea in the Podcast index
41:15
social group within a week.
41:18
there are already examples
41:18
out there they're already,
41:21
people are playing around
41:21
with it, seeing if it
41:22
works, seeing if it doesn't.
41:24
And that's why one of the
41:24
things that I'm excited
41:26
about with the whole Podcast
41:26
namespace is that probably
41:29
80% of the new namespace
41:29
tags will fail and will die.
41:33
And that's fine because the
41:33
20% of the tags that do go on
41:39
to be really well supported.
41:42
Is going to be, a game changer
41:42
we're already seeing, I think
41:45
on the studio rolled out their
41:45
transcript tag this week.
41:49
So Omni studio now supporting
41:49
transcripts alongside a
41:53
bunch of other Podcast,
41:53
hosts, including Buzzsprout.
41:56
And of course, including
41:56
captivate as well, who have
41:59
said that they are going to be
41:59
supporting it very shortly too.
42:02
I think all of that
42:02
is really good.
42:04
And that's probably the big
42:04
difference between the open
42:07
standards that Chris has worked
42:07
on in the past, which are.
42:11
Behemoths that you have to
42:11
spend months and months on.
42:14
And the acquaint nimble
42:14
way that, Adam and Dave
42:17
have been working through.
42:19
I think a good example in
42:19
that interview was when Chris
42:21
was talking about pub sub
42:21
hubbub, which, took forever
42:25
to implement because it was
42:25
a standard that didn't exist
42:27
before that, that people then
42:27
had to find servers to keep
42:31
on permanently and the cost.
42:34
And now, you've got Dave
42:34
Jones bringing out popping,
42:37
which, I don't know how much
42:37
that's costing Dave and Adam
42:39
to run, but I'm sure it's
42:39
not on the scale that it
42:42
would have done 10 years ago.
42:44
Everything that David Adam
42:44
are trying to do, particularly
42:46
around the Podcast, namespace
42:46
is make everything as
42:49
decentralized as possible.
42:51
So the interesting thing around
42:51
pod ping is that it differs
42:54
from, pub sub hubbub or website,
42:54
as it's now called, in that
42:58
you don't have to have big hubs
42:58
that are sitting there in the
43:02
middle, everything, around the
43:02
whole pod ping thing is all
43:06
open based in a blockchain.
43:10
And that seems to
43:10
work quite well.
43:12
again, there's been quite a
43:12
lot of thinking and it's easy
43:15
now because obviously we've got
43:15
quite a lot more tools that we
43:18
can go away and use, but I'm now
43:18
really fascinating, interview
43:22
with a proper, you know, gee of
43:22
how the internet was actually
43:27
developed and came to be.
43:28
I would love to get Dave's
43:28
take on this because he's
43:32
dealing at the coalface with
43:32
all of this, things like atom.
43:35
If I recall, cause I had
43:35
to look it up why it was
43:38
partly because Dave Weiner
43:38
wasn't moving stuff forward.
43:41
Unsurprisingly, he'd got himself
43:41
to 0.92, and that was it.
43:45
I'm very happy with RSS.
43:47
And I think it was the need
43:47
to move stuff forward with
43:51
RSS that led to atom then
43:51
led to activity stream.
43:54
But also I think Christmas
43:54
scene and the other guys were
43:58
trying to reinvent the web.
43:59
they were doing open ID and
43:59
OAuth and they were doing
44:02
all sorts of other standards,
44:02
not just moving RSS forward.
44:07
That was the problem.
44:08
I think now Spotify
44:08
has still been busy.
44:12
So apart from the.
44:13
ads that they've released.
44:14
last week before we
44:14
went, they came out
44:17
with Q and a, um, polls.
44:19
Now I think this is interesting
44:19
on the one hand, because
44:23
I've been advocating that.
44:25
More need now for listener
44:25
interactivity within podcasting.
44:31
So they've done something
44:31
but what are your thoughts
44:33
on what they've done?
44:34
the idea of Q and a, the
44:34
idea of polls is great.
44:38
They're not the first
44:38
company to end up doing this.
44:41
There's been really quite
44:41
a lot of these companies.
44:46
Great.
44:46
And clever company called
44:46
guide G I D E, which
44:50
is offering Q and a.
44:51
And I think polls as well
44:51
within its own system.
44:55
But you need the guide SDK
44:55
in your podcast app, or you
44:59
need to link to a webpage
44:59
on, It's really meant for
45:02
internal training and internal
45:02
papers Then obviously you've
45:05
got Spotify doing their own
45:05
Q and a and their own polls.
45:08
Bullhorn has had polls
45:08
in it for some time.
45:11
Podbean has as well.
45:12
Dory labs, has both
45:12
of these things.
45:14
It's been a while since I've
45:14
seen a Dory, there's entail of
45:17
course, which is doing some of
45:17
this type of things as well.
45:20
And all of these are proprietary
45:20
owned brand systems that don't
45:23
interconnect with each other.
45:24
So it's not very easy
45:24
for us to tell somebody
45:28
how to take part in a.
45:31
Because we need to talk about,
45:31
open this app and, and have a
45:35
listen and blah, blah, blah.
45:37
my kind of argument with all
45:37
of these things is wouldn't it
45:40
be easier just to say, visit
45:40
Podland dot news slash poll,
45:44
if you want to take part in our
45:44
poll today, because everybody
45:47
has access to a web browser.
45:49
So, you know, I'm unkind of
45:49
there going, oh, brilliant.
45:52
It's another one of these
45:52
proprietary standards.
45:56
Of course.
45:57
The other side of it is
45:57
that if 20% of people are
45:59
currently listening to their
45:59
shows on Spotify, then maybe
46:04
the proprietary standard
46:04
will be the only standard
46:06
that we actually talk about.
46:08
When you look back at what
46:08
Martin and, Benjamin are doing
46:12
with cross commenting, using
46:12
the activity pub, standard.
46:17
If you roll that forward, you
46:17
could see that becoming a way
46:21
of also doing polls and Q and
46:21
a, that is cross applicant.
46:25
Yes, I think so.
46:26
And I think what I'm quite
46:26
excited by is that we don't
46:31
just look at this fully as
46:31
just here's a system that
46:34
does Q and a, it will be great
46:34
if this was an interactive
46:37
system, which allowed you to
46:37
do all that kind of thing.
46:40
And perhaps we should.
46:42
Benjamin on in the next
46:42
few weeks to end up talking
46:45
about that sort of thing.
46:47
He's already on the rosters
46:47
coming on, but you see, I
46:49
was saying that so you could
46:49
go, that's a great idea.
46:51
Why don't we do that
46:51
next week, but no.
46:53
break the, break the third wall.
46:55
Why don't you?
46:58
It's a secret now.
47:00
The forward out of the Spotify
47:00
land and moving on with what
47:03
else happened at the end of
47:03
last week show you had a secret
47:07
that you couldn't reveal.
47:08
Cause it was embargoed
47:08
until five o'clock
47:10
it's from captivate.
47:12
So let's talk about it now.
47:13
What did captivate
47:13
announced last week?
47:15
Yes.
47:15
So they made a surprise
47:15
announcement, on international
47:19
Podcast day, which was a guest
47:19
booking and interview management
47:22
system, which is really cool.
47:24
This is the first one
47:24
that is actually built
47:27
into a podcast host.
47:29
there's bits of Calendly
47:29
in there in terms of diary
47:31
management and stuff like that.
47:33
There's bits of Google forms
47:33
in there, in terms of getting
47:36
the right information from
47:36
your guests, importing this
47:39
information automatically into
47:39
your episode notes, all of that
47:42
kind of stuff is built in, and
47:42
there's also integration with a
47:47
squad cast, which I believe is
47:47
a bit like Riverside, in terms
47:51
of the system, I think such
47:51
a clever idea to bring all of
47:54
those disparate bits together
47:54
and to produce something which
47:58
is, going to be a really helpful
47:58
tool for many Podcast, as one
48:03
of the reasons that quite a
48:03
lot of Podcast has stopped
48:06
podcasting is just the stress of
48:06
finding guests, of getting their
48:10
information of, booking times,
48:10
all of that kind of stuff.
48:13
So any sets of tools, which
48:13
make that easier for people
48:17
is I think a great plan.
48:18
and it's good to see people
48:18
adding more and more features
48:21
into the product at the
48:21
same price point, right?
48:25
Yes, indeed.
48:25
At the same price point
48:25
and to everybody, I should
48:28
point out I'm an advisor.
48:29
If you don't normally have
48:29
a listen to this podcast.
48:32
So yes.
48:32
So I think, it's
48:32
the captivate way.
48:35
To add more features in there
48:35
and make it available to
48:39
everybody as much as possible.
48:41
They did that with
48:41
Podcast networks, in the
48:43
last, couple of months.
48:44
I think it's a bright move now.
48:46
you wrote a really good piece.
48:48
Who invented the word Podcast.
48:50
if you haven't read that,
48:50
I highly recommend it.
48:52
We'll have it in the show
48:52
notes, a link to it as well.
48:56
Now, going through
48:56
that, did you find out
48:58
anything you didn't know?
49:00
I we all assume that it was done
49:00
by Ben Hammersley and Dave was
49:04
involved in blah, blah, blah.
49:05
But did you find
49:05
anything interesting?
49:07
as a fellow Brit, I was
49:07
there going Ben Hammersley.
49:10
He invented the word
49:10
Podcast and that's it.
49:13
And actually, it's
49:13
not as simple as that.
49:15
somebody else, tweeted to me
49:15
that Ben Hammersley is the,
49:19
was, and Danny Gregoire who
49:19
ended up using it in the iPod,
49:25
mailing list at the, exactly the
49:25
right time was the Steve jobs.
49:29
he was the person that basically
49:29
ended up, using the word at
49:33
the right time to get other
49:33
people really excited about it.
49:37
And, how excited about it is
49:37
this is a little audio clip
49:40
of the first time the word
49:40
Podcast was used in a Podcast,
49:46
what I'm doing right here and
49:46
what Adam's doing and what
49:48
Dave Weiner is doing and what
49:48
it conversations are doing.
49:51
That's podcasting.
49:53
I think that is.
49:54
I so excited, Dave Slusher,
49:54
so excited, about the new term
49:59
and starts talking about, we're
49:59
podcasting, he's a podcaster,
50:03
you have downloaded a Podcast
50:03
and get so thrilled and excited.
50:07
But what I really enjoyed doing
50:07
is going through the timeline
50:11
and basically going, okay, what
50:11
really happened here because
50:14
there's lots of ways that people
50:14
have been talking about how
50:18
the word Podcast came to be.
50:20
And it was really interesting
50:20
actually seeing all of
50:22
the different timelines
50:22
and everything else.
50:24
The one thing that I can't yet
50:24
work out is why the domain.
50:28
Podcast dot com was
50:28
registered in 2000.
50:33
Nobody was talking about
50:33
podcasting in 2000.
50:36
I'm still a little bit
50:36
curious about that one,
50:39
but certainly seeing all of
50:39
these other things, it was
50:42
just really interesting.
50:43
So I'd like to do more
50:43
of these sorts of history
50:45
things every now and again.
50:46
it's a good piece of,
50:46
education for me and education
50:50
for many other people,
50:50
including for Spotify.
50:53
that will be a good thing,
50:53
to, end up doing, I think a
50:55
few more of those feels like
50:55
Thomas Edison's light bulb,
50:59
it was Humphrey Davey who
50:59
actually invented the light
51:02
bulb, but it was Edison who
51:02
actually patented it first.
51:05
And that's why we
51:05
think it's Edison.
51:07
Ah, there you go.
51:08
And Danny J Greg guar, he
51:08
may or may not have invented
51:12
the word Podcast, but he
51:12
certainly got it up and running.
51:15
And I think that's the
51:15
really exciting thing I
51:17
did reach out to Dave was.
51:19
Uh, to come on to Podland
51:19
for an interview and for
51:22
a nanosecond, I actually
51:22
thought he was going to do it.
51:25
I genuinely thought he
51:25
was going to do it until I
51:28
got the one-line response
51:28
of, I know I was there.
51:32
that was it.
51:32
there is a very good
51:32
interview though, with.
51:34
talking to guy Kawasaki, which
51:34
was only earlier on this year.
51:39
And he talks a lot about
51:39
how, podcasting came to
51:42
be and everything else.
51:43
And I get the feeling that
51:43
both Dave Weiner and, Adam
51:46
Curry there are other things
51:46
that both of those folks
51:49
have done in their lives.
51:50
And I think having well-meaning
51:50
folk like us going, go on,
51:54
tell us the story again.
51:56
I don't think he's really
51:56
going to help too much.
51:59
but I must say by the way,
51:59
the exciting thing has
52:02
been going into the web
52:02
archive, pulling out lots of.
52:06
Audio clips such as that,
52:06
knowing that I can use them
52:08
under fair use rules anyway,
52:08
and being able to not just read
52:14
about the history of the word
52:14
Podcast, but actually see the
52:17
blogs in their old fashioned
52:17
glory and listen to quite a lot
52:22
of the audio that's been a real
52:22
thrill and real excitement.
52:26
the web archive is
52:26
a wonderful tool.
52:28
It is indeed.
52:29
Now moving on 13 to 20
52:29
three-year-olds James D
52:33
do you think we should be
52:33
targeting them for, I can't
52:36
think of any 13 to 23 year
52:36
old, who would be interested
52:39
in what we're talking about?
52:40
So
52:44
talk about personal.
52:45
There you go.
52:48
When it seems that the gen Zed
52:48
age group, if you want to target
52:52
them, prefer Spotify and apple.
52:55
How do we know this?
52:56
Well, uh, this was
52:56
compiled by gen Z.
52:58
I think it's gen Z.
53:00
I don't think he, even that
53:00
Brits can say Jen said,
53:02
because we would just call
53:02
them 13 to 23 year olds
53:05
as I did, in the piece.
53:06
But yes, a gen Z, which
53:06
is, just in Jackson's
53:10
daughter has compiled a,
53:10
survey all about how gen Z.
53:15
Uh, listening to podcasts and
53:15
basically she says, a number
53:20
of really interesting things.
53:22
The main, obviously interesting
53:22
thing is that, it's way more
53:25
popular in terms of Spotify than
53:25
apple, for podcasts listening.
53:31
And Sadie Jackson also says
53:31
that, this might not be
53:35
necessarily a good thing
53:35
for the future of podcasting
53:39
because, gen Z has don't
53:39
necessarily care about RSS.
53:44
They don't necessarily care
53:44
about the open ecosystem.
53:47
All they care about is
53:47
something easy and simple for
53:50
them to get their content.
53:52
And so is that a concern
53:52
that, Spotify is edging its
53:57
way towards a closed system.
53:58
It's offering exclusive
53:58
shows to its platform and
54:00
now Q and a and polls and
54:00
all this advertising stuff.
54:05
Is this a good thing for
54:05
the future of the industry?
54:08
And, say asks.
54:09
good question.
54:10
And I don't know
54:10
what the answer is.
54:11
I once tried to teach my
54:11
children how to do HTML and
54:15
JavaScript with a little bit of
54:15
CSS, you might as well ask them
54:18
to pull their wisdom teeth out.
54:20
There was zero interest
54:20
in understanding how
54:22
the internet worked or
54:22
what was underlying it.
54:25
They just wanted to get
54:25
back to what they were
54:27
doing on social media.
54:29
My daughter, even asking her to
54:29
brush her hair is a difficulty.
54:32
So exactly.
54:35
But I do think I get what she's
54:35
saying, because if you look at.
54:40
My children who are in their
54:40
late teens or just out of it,
54:42
Facebook is granddad or mum and
54:42
dad's network for social media.
54:46
they're on Instagram or Insta.
54:48
or, they're looking at Tik TOK.
54:49
They're not going to Facebook.
54:51
And Facebook actually admits
54:51
they're struggling to understand
54:54
how to get the audience back.
54:55
No, indeed.
54:56
And they're also.
54:58
Old versions of iOS devices,
54:58
what typically happens is
55:02
that mum or dad gets a new
55:02
iPhone and then gives their
55:04
old iPhone to the kids.
55:06
And certainly what's
55:06
happened in terms of,
55:08
the iPad, here as well.