Marketing In Times of Recovery

Marketing In Times Of Crisis has changed its name to Marketing In Times of Recovery. It's still a bi-weekly interview-led podcast series featuring inspirational built environment business leaders but more with a look to the future. We’ve had to weather crisis’ before and podcast listeners hear lively conversations, jam-packed with hints, tips and takeaways that you can apply to your business now. Hosted by Ayo Abbas, Founder / Consultant, Abbas Marketing. Subscribe now, rate, review and help us to spread the word.

https://www.abbasmarketing.com/mitc-podcast

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episode 19: Ep 19: Part III: Clients, Copy and Websites with Nikita Morell, Amy Edwards and Dave Sharp [transcript]


Welcome to Marketing In Times of Recovery and I'm your host Ayo Abbas a built environment marketing consultant from Abbas Marketing.  And here’s the third and final part of my Australian takeover special.   If you’ve not checked out part I and part II make sure you do before listening to this one.

My guests of course are:

  • Amy Edwards, Markedly
  • Nikita Morell, Copywriter and Marketing Strategist
  •  Dave Sharp, Vanity Projects

To finish off our interview this time we look at 

  • How to attract the right clients that you really want to work with who just get you and what you stand for
  • Why it’s important to find your authentic voice and not be lost in a world of archi-speak
  • How to develop a website that speaks to your target audience
  • Why marketing is often seen as a dirty word and why this shouldn’t be the case. 

This is the final part of a three-part special recorded on Thurs May 06 2021.

Rate and review us

Please don’t forget to rate and review us if you’re listening on Apple podcasts as it’s lovely to hear what you think plus it helps us to spread the word.


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 2021-06-04  31m
 
 
00:05  Ayo Abbas
Hi, and welcome to
00:05
Marketing In Times of Recovery.
00:08
Here's part three of my
00:08
interview with Amy, Nikita and
00:10
Dave, if you've not checked out
00:10
parts I and II, make sure you do
00:13
before listening to this one,
00:13
enjoy. How have you found
00:21
LinkedIn for your clients Amy?
00:23  Amy Edwards
I think it's been
00:23
really useful. Actually, I think
00:25
there's been a really big pull
00:25
towards it, I think, you know,
00:30
like, the other two have said,
00:30
it's just, there's less
00:34
engagement, like, he might not
00:34
have the likes and things that
00:36
are there. But what I find
00:36
really interesting is looking
00:39
at, like, clickthrough rates
00:39
back to your website, like, I
00:42
find that really fascinating,
00:42
you might have had four likes,
00:44
but you've had, you know, 50,
00:44
people click through to read an
00:47
article on your website. Or
00:47
people just in real life, when
00:52
you see them again, often will
00:52
refer back to what they've seen
00:55
on LinkedIn. So it is
00:55
interesting, I think, it is a
00:59
great way to start building
00:59
relationships. And I think it's
01:02
a bit of an untapped resource. I
01:02
think people just aren't really
01:04
using it very much like I know I
01:04
tap in and out of LinkedIn,
01:09
Instagram, I tend to be on there
01:09
all the time. But LinkedIn, I
01:11
kind of get a bit bored with it.
01:11
There's some people who are
01:13
like, voracious on there. And
01:13
it's boring, you know, they're
01:16
not providing really good
01:16
content, but for the ones who
01:19
are providing great content. I
01:19
keep wanting to follow them,
01:23
right, and I want to share their
01:23
work. And so I think it is about
01:27
creating engaging content and
01:27
doing stuff that's of value,
01:30
making sure it's right for your
01:30
audience. But I find when the
01:34
clients that I'm working with,
01:34
who do that tend to get really
01:37
good work out of it. One in
01:37
particular for us has had, you
01:41
know, I think they've three
01:41
times as busy as what they were
01:44
pre-COVID, you know, like, and
01:44
they put a big push throughout
01:47
2020 on doing LinkedIn. And, and
01:47
it was because they talk
01:51
directly to their audience, you
01:51
know, that's where their
01:53
audience lives. And that's where
01:53
they're on every single day. So,
01:57
it worked for them. It was the
01:57
right channel.
02:00  Ayo Abbas
I mean, I think that
02:00
especially with LinkedIn, I
02:02
think is the LinkedIn lurker
02:02
isn't it, you know, that person
02:04
who doesn't respond to your
02:04
posts, but they're there,
02:07
they're looking, they see your
02:07
comments, they see you exactly,
02:11
and they may approach you
02:11
directly. And that's the thing,
02:13
and I kind of think there is
02:13
that thing where people don't
02:16
realise it's like, oh, no one's
02:16
engaging with my post. It's
02:18
like, people are still
02:18
registering, you're there. And I
02:21
think that's the key thing
02:21
about, you know, you stay in
02:23
front of mind as well. So I
02:23
mean, I love LinkedIn, it's,
02:26
it's my probably favourite
02:26
platform out of all of them for
02:28
me personally. Yeah. But I'm
02:31  Amy Edwards
thinking too, I
02:31
think it's, you know, it's like
02:34
you said, it's the ones who are
02:34
the who are the stalkers on
02:36
social media who don't actually
02:36
interact. They're not engaging,
02:39
but they're there, and they're
02:39
watching all the time. And I
02:41
think that's why consistency is
02:41
so important. And it will
02:45
continue to be important. If you
02:45
know the way that we're going
02:48
and the digital platforms and
02:48
how they're all tracking, I
02:51
think consistency is going to
02:51
win over everything else.
02:54  Dave Sharp
Okay. Yeah, the
02:54
people, the people that are
02:56
consistent like Nikita, like I,
02:56
I know that if I don't log into
02:59
LinkedIn for two weeks, and I
02:59
log in the first thing I'm going
03:02
to see my foot feed is like
03:02
Nikita's latest post that has
03:04
like, 85 comments. I'm like,
03:04
because that's gonna be right at
03:09
the top. Because in my network,
03:09
even though I've got, you know,
03:12
probably, I don't know, a couple
03:12
1000 LinkedIn connections or
03:15
whatever, I would say probably
03:15
like 50 of them may be even less
03:21
are posting as consistently as
03:21
Nikita. Yeah. So it's like,
03:24  Nikita Morell
yeah, so I'm
03:24
sorry.
03:26  Dave Sharp
Yeah, no, that's it.
03:26
I mean, so I think that's what
03:28
I'm saying is k, just like, if
03:28
you just do, you can get you
03:32
don't have to do that much. And
03:32
I think it can have a big impact
03:35
on LinkedIn.
03:36  Ayo Abbas
Absolutely. I think
03:36
something like 5% of people who
03:39
actually registered actually
03:39
kind of post content on there.
03:42
So that's a really small pool,
03:42
really, when you think about it.
03:45
So there's a huge amount of
03:45
opportunity on the platform
03:48
there. And there still is.
03:49  Nikita Morell
And when it comes
03:49
to consistency, like it might
03:53
seem like I'm doing it a lot,
03:53
but I actually only post
03:56
probably once every two or three
03:56
weeks. So it's like it isn't it
04:00
doesn't even have to be like
04:00
every day or every week. So that
04:03
consistency is just like I know,
04:03
like probably once now,
04:06
nowadays, it's once every three
04:06
weeks. Probably gonna play
04:09  Ayo Abbas
when something's
04:09
riled you.
04:14  Nikita Morell
Well, just a bit
04:14
of a spoiler that someone said
04:17
to me today, like I got an email
04:17
from a client saying, "Can you
04:19
just write my website by the end
04:19
of the week?" And I was like,
04:21
it's Thursday. And I posted
04:21
about how I don't sit down and
04:26
write.
04:28  Dave Sharp
I love it.
04:28  Ayo Abbas
That's a process to
04:28
your fantastic messaging magic.
04:33  Amy Edwards
By the end of the
04:33
week, that's too funny.
04:35  Ayo Abbas
Yeah. And it's like I
04:35
know, it does make me laugh
04:38
though. But you're right,
04:38
because your project and website
04:40
projects, it's like, Okay, see,
04:40
what's your messaging? Who are
04:43
you targeting and like kind of
04:43
stare at you tumbleweeds?
04:51  Nikita Morell
I will say like
04:51
every post like and hopefully it
04:53
comes across and I guess Dave
04:53
and Amy and you know, you can
04:56
tell me about every post that I
04:56
do right there even though it is
04:58
quite controversial. Always try
04:58
and have like a takeaway, like
05:01
some sort of a something that
05:01
they can apply to their website.
05:04
So if I'm like, slagging on,
05:04
like call to actions or
05:07
something that I'll say, like,
05:07
you know, this is what you can
05:09
do, and you can immediately
05:09
apply it to your website, or I
05:11
guess it's that, and I tell my
05:11
clients that as well, like
05:13
architecture should be trying to
05:13
educate, you know, or, like,
05:17
impart some sort of a value.
05:17
Like, I'm not just ranting for
05:20
the sake of it. Like there's
05:20
always like,
05:22  Ayo Abbas
a point to the rant.
05:23  Nikita Morell
Hopefully.
05:28  Ayo Abbas
on social media, if I
05:28
see really good kind of action
05:30
points, I screengrab it, I look
05:30
at stuff for inspiration for how
05:33
people frame stuff. But you're
05:33
right, and I think always have
05:36
those takeaways. And it's quite
05:36
for me, you know, I get
05:39
inspiration from loads of
05:39
different places, and you kind
05:41
of just, you know, take little
05:41
snapshots of stuff, and then
05:43
come back to it later. And yeah,
05:43
your your posts always have a,
05:46
this is how you can do a CTA
05:46
well. And then you show which
05:49
is, which is brilliant, because
05:49
that gives people an idea on
05:51
what they get me doing. So it's
05:51
always useful content. But it
05:54
was not the comments. So in
05:54
terms of kind of, I guess,
06:00
practice websites, let's just
06:00
have a quick chat around those.
06:02
So are they kind of any trends
06:02
that you've seen in websites and
06:07
what people are doing now I
06:07
remember that there was a time
06:09
probably about 10 years ago,
06:09
when everyone's websites were
06:11
spinning. And that made me
06:11
really dizzy. It was just like,
06:16
so much motion. But nowadays, in
06:16
terms of practice websites, are
06:20
they kind of particular trends
06:20
that you're seeing people people
06:22
are kind of favouring at the
06:22
moment, Nikita?
06:26  Nikita Morell
Um, yeah, I mean,
06:26
like, probably David can speak,
06:30
or Amy can speak to this better
06:30
than I can. But I mean, in terms
06:33
of trends, I'm hoping that the
06:33
trend is to have a little bit
06:39
more copy on it. So there are
06:39
more words like a value
06:42
proposition or a tagline that
06:42
really, you know, I think,
06:46
research shows you've got 10
06:46
seconds or something to grab
06:49
their attention. So really, kind
06:49
of grabbing it, and also moving
06:52
away from this idea of it just
06:52
being like a project portfolio
06:55
where you click on it, and
06:55
there's just like a grid of
06:58
project images, everything I
06:58
mentioned. Yeah, it is more
07:01
about the storytelling, I've got
07:01
some great examples that I'll
07:06
share with you, Dave. Good
07:06
project descriptions that, you
07:10
know, tell, tell the story. You
07:10
know, really drawing before and
07:16
after shots and sketches. And
07:16
you know, as Amy was saying,
07:19
like showing the process behind
07:19
it. So I've got, I think I'm
07:22
seeing a lot more of that. Yeah,
07:22
I think just moving away from
07:26
just project project project
07:26
more about the people behind the
07:29
firm, because at the end of the
07:29
day, like clients are hiring the
07:32
team and the people rather than
07:32
the name, I guess. Yeah.
07:36  Ayo Abbas
Amy what trends are
07:36
you seeing in terms of websites
07:38
and what people are doing in the
07:38
article world? Oh, well,
07:41  Amy Edwards
I'm finding at the
07:41
moment, we're redeveloping a
07:43
couple of websites at the
07:43
moment. And both of them again,
07:47
very, like heavy people focus,
07:47
like Nikita said, you know, it's
07:51
definitely the personality
07:51
behind the practice, from the
07:55
like, from look and feel, I
07:55
think a lot of them are trying
07:59
to simplify and get lots more
07:59
whitespace. And be less, maybe
08:04
less bold with their logos and
08:04
things like that. I think
08:08
they're trying to make it about
08:08
about the work and writing about
08:11
the work and the process of the
08:11
work and the people behind the
08:13
practice. So I find I'm finding
08:13
that's kind of what's happening.
08:17
For me anyway, for the clients
08:17
that I'm working with currently.
08:21  Ayo Abbas
And Dave, any trends
08:21
that you're seeing any different
08:24
or anything, particularly your
08:24
clients do.
08:27  Dave Sharp
exactly, exactly
08:27
what I mean, a caterer is
08:29
saying, I think aesthetically,
08:29
they're getting simpler. more
08:33
chill, I think these websites
08:33
are standard Finally, chill out.
08:37
Because I think architects of
08:37
architects websites have been
08:40
doing way too much for a while.
08:40
And I think like, even a vino,
08:44
like, you know, when I when I
08:44
met a new client, like, it's
08:47
usually like, you know, nine out
08:47
of 10 times, so just gonna have
08:50
a simple Squarespace website.
08:50
And I love that I think that's
08:52
totally fine. I mean, brands are
08:52
gonna go out and get, you know,
08:56
custom branding and everything
08:56
like that. But you know, you
08:58
just want to keep things really
08:58
simple and exactly what Nikita
09:01
is saying about having more copy
09:01
letting, letting copy actually
09:04
do what it should do not being
09:04
scared of having writing on your
09:07
website, which I think is always
09:07
this fear of, like, Are people
09:11
actually going to read all this
09:11
and like is that you know, I
09:14
just don't want it to be lots of
09:14
writing. It looks like um,
09:17
there's always this deep set of
09:17
concern. Again, I always
09:19
interested in the psychology of
09:19
like, why all architects think
09:22
the same. And I think, you know,
09:22
one of the things is sometimes
09:26
it's like this idea of like, if
09:26
I'm seen to be like trying too
09:30
hard, it looks like I have to it
09:30
looks like there must be
09:32
something wrong with my work
09:32
that I'm like trying this hard
09:35
to like sell myself, right.
09:35
There's always this kind of that
09:38
kind of concern comes up but
09:38
really, I think there's just,
09:42
you know, architects websites
09:42
have just been basically like
09:46
information nutritionally
09:46
lacking they're like McDonald's
09:50
cheeseburgers. They're just
09:50
like, there's like nothing
09:53
there. There's nothing there.
09:53
There's no protein, there's no
09:56
nothing right? So you're just
09:56
getting this like portfolio and
09:59
like a colour palate and you're
09:59
going like, Great. Okay, cool.
10:02
What did I actually get from
10:02
this website? Did I? Did I come
10:05
here for? Did I come here for a
10:05
reason? Seriously, as a visitor,
10:09
was there a reason that I came
10:09
here? Probably there was
10:11
probably several things I wanted
10:11
to know about this company.
10:14
Let's not treat architects as
10:14
like super special. They are
10:16
companies at the end of the day,
10:16
what did I want to know about
10:19
this business? And what they do?
10:19
Yeah. And they gave me nothing
10:22
of it. Right. And that's the
10:22
most annoying thing. So yeah,
10:25
sorry, getting on a bit of a
10:25
soapbox about it. But I think
10:28
that like,
10:29  Ayo Abbas
How do they get away
10:29
from the cheeseburger day. How
10:31
do they get away from there?
10:32  Dave Sharp
I know exactly doing
10:32
exactly what like Nikita and me
10:34
talking about like, like, don't,
10:34
don't rely on the visual as much
10:38
and just start to think about
10:38
well, I personally think like,
10:40
how do you get the nutrition
10:40
back in, think about the things
10:43
that you actually just need to
10:43
explain to people like, I'm not
10:45
an expert copywriter by any
10:45
means. But I generally like to
10:48
try and get my clients thinking
10:48
about, what information Did
10:52
somebody come here looking for?
10:52
And I know that's like, a little
10:54
bit boring. But are you giving
10:54
them what they're actually
10:58
looking for? Like, I always like
10:58
adding helpful pages to my
11:01
clients. websites, like FAQ is
11:01
like where you answer frequently
11:05  Ayo Abbas
And that's the things
11:05
that people ask you all the
11:05
asked questions.
11:07
time. So you know, when someone
11:07
comes up to you just note those
11:10
down, okay, they asked me this
11:10
they asked me that
11:12  Dave Sharp
The things people
11:12
ask you all the time. I like
11:15
project pages to have more
11:15
information about the client and
11:17
their brief. And some, you know,
11:17
maybe some stuff that I can't
11:21
see directly in the photos is
11:21
like important. If they're a
11:25
firm that does like a few things
11:25
like say they do like houses and
11:28
restaurants and you know,
11:28
airports, I don't want their
11:32
about page to have to try and
11:32
address all three of those
11:34
audiences. So I like them to
11:34
have like individual pages that
11:38
are devoted to each of those
11:38
different areas so that they can
11:40
write something about how we
11:40
design airports, and they can
11:43
write something about how we
11:43
design restaurants, like I kind
11:46
of want them to have a little
11:46
bit more segmentation on their
11:48
website as well. So yeah, those
11:48
are just some of the things that
11:51
I am I try to push for with my
11:51
clients, I wouldn't say it's
11:53
like an overall industry trend,
11:53
but it's a trend in the people
11:57
that I get to nag into doing
11:57
what I want them to do. So.
12:00
Yeah, that's, that's, that's,
12:00
that's a big thing with the
12:03
websites. So
12:06  Amy Edwards
sorry. I was
12:06
thinking to at the copy, like I
12:08
think what's interesting is, I
12:08
think there's either there's,
12:11
these people have these
12:11
websites, or they're very, like
12:15
portfolio driven, like he said,
12:15
you know, it's all about the
12:18
pictures, and that's it. Or then
12:18
there's the ones that are really
12:20
content heavy, but it's maybe
12:20
not the right content, you know,
12:23
like Nikita can probably spoke
12:23
to that it's, I find, it's like
12:26
you go into this thing where,
12:26
you know, they've written three
12:29
pages. And it's just three pages
12:29
of just words. And it's very
12:33
architectural, and it doesn't
12:33
actually speak to the audience.
12:36
And I think, like, use the
12:36
words, but use it use it well,
12:40
like an employ a copywriter like
12:40
to spend money on that, because
12:43
it's actually really useful. And
12:43
it's the returns on that it's,
12:47
it's going to far outweigh, you
12:47
know, your diatribe on what
12:51
architecture means to you. Like,
12:51
it's just so boring for the
12:55
audience. They just think, well,
12:55
that's exactly why I don't want
13:01
to work with an architect,
13:01
because, you know, they're too
13:04
far above me, I can't relate to
13:04
them, it's, you know, how are
13:08
they going to be able to create
13:08
something for me or for my
13:10
project that isn't about them.
13:14  Ayo Abbas
So any kind of tips
13:14
on how to approach copywriting
13:17
for architecture websites,
13:17
Nikita that you think kind of
13:20
fit if you did these three
13:20
things, or to make it better?
13:24
Yeah, the audience,
13:25  Nikita Morell
I think, the
13:25
whole time, and that's why so I
13:28
actually for my clients, you
13:28
know, every marketer does, like
13:30
this whole client, whether it's
13:30
an avatar or a profile, or
13:33
whatever you call it, like,
13:33
you've got to have your ideal
13:36
client in mind. And every time
13:36
you write something, you have to
13:40
think how are they going to
13:40
respond to it? Is that the right
13:42
language they use? So going back
13:42
to my LinkedIn posts, which I'm
13:46
about the product is more about
13:46
that research. And that's what
13:49
copywriters do is like, I would
13:49
say, almost 60% is research and
13:53
that 40 is writing. So every
13:53
website copywriting project I do
13:58
I interview five to 10 of their
13:58
past clients, I sit on the
14:02
phone, and I'm like, I ask them
14:02
questions, you know, how did you
14:05
find working with them? What
14:05
were your objections before you
14:07
started working? As he said,
14:07
I'm, you know, that they might
14:09
say, Oh, I just thought the
14:09
architect would just not listen
14:12
to me, or they just run with
14:12
their own ideas, or they're
14:14
trying to create an award
14:14
winning house or something, and
14:17
not really taking my needs into
14:17
consideration, or whatever it
14:19
is. So I pretty much you know,
14:19
transcribe all our
14:22
conversations, and then I sit
14:22
there and I just think, okay,
14:25
like what, you know, it's called
14:25
voice of customer data, like,
14:28
how can I pull this out and put
14:28
it into words? So a lot goes on,
14:33
behind the scenes to get to get
14:33
those words, I think, going back
14:37
to your question is one of the
14:37
biggest thing they can really do
14:39
is really get to know like, what
14:39
type of clients do they want to
14:43
keep working with? And how do
14:43
those clients talk? Like, do
14:46
these clients talk in archi
14:46
babble? Or do they talk in just
14:49
a normal conversation and as a
14:49
really good tip, if you're, if
14:53
you're an architect, and you
14:53
know, you have to get to your
14:55
website, copy and you kind of
14:55
scared of that blank page, I
14:58
always just say go into Google
14:58
Docs. You know, click onto that
15:02
voice typing tool and just start
15:02
talking to your computer. Like,
15:04
that's the best way to kind of
15:04
to get that conversational, you
15:09
know, write like you speak. So
15:09
just start talking about your
15:11
practice why you started it. And
15:11
then that almost forms the basis
15:14
of, if you copy, you know, don't
15:14
sit there, try and be like, how
15:17
can I sound smart? And that's
15:17
when you just come
15:25
out every day. You just
15:25
sometimes just have to feel, you
15:29
know, like yourself and right,
15:29
like, you see, and that's when
15:33
it won't, because I think
15:33
another thing, that website,
15:35
there's a lot of architects,
15:35
I've, my clients will come back,
15:38
you know, I want to be quite
15:38
witty and bold, and that, then
15:41
I'm talking to them, and they're
15:41
so introverted. And I'm like,
15:43
someone's gonna look at your
15:43
website, and there's like bold
15:46
colours and flashing and they're
15:46
going to meet you, and you're
15:47
like, so shy, like that causes
15:47
mistrust and misalignment,
15:51
right? Like, your website has to
15:51
reflect who you are. So yeah,
15:56  Ayo Abbas
I've now got visions
15:56
of someone in the corner who
15:58
very grey. It's like, you know,
15:58
this amazing website.
16:06  Dave Sharp
Because like, I also
16:06
I also find this so frustrating
16:09
when I'm like, let's we're
16:09
getting into like the second
16:11
half of the podcast. So we just
16:11
get to sort of say what we find
16:13
annoying about architects. I
16:13
find this such an such a
16:20
frustrating thing, when
16:20
architects tell me about things
16:22
that they've like intentionally
16:22
left off the website, because
16:25
they like don't really want
16:25
clients to know about it. That
16:29
makes me so angry, because it's
16:29
just deceptive. And it makes it
16:35
so hard to trust you. Like I've
16:35
heard I've spoken architects
16:39
that like like, say, for
16:39
example, last year, they had to
16:43
maybe let a couple of staff go,
16:43
unfortunately, with a pandemic,
16:46
or whatever. So they decided to
16:46
like, delete their team page,
16:49
because they don't want people
16:49
to see that, like, we're a small
16:52
company, we want them to think
16:52
that we're big and serious. And
16:56
it comes back to Nikita's point
16:56
of like, you know, what happens
17:00
when they walk in the office. So
17:00
you're going to like, go down to
17:03
the local theatre school to hire
17:03
youngsters to like, go and sit
17:06
in the desks and stuff and
17:06
pretend to work like. There's
17:10
there's no point being
17:10
dishonest. And I think that, you
17:13
know, people appreciate
17:13
transparency. Yeah. And you
17:16
know, in my own website, I try
17:16
to any, anything I could
17:20
literally think of sharing, I
17:20
share it. And that may not be
17:23
the best advice for everybody.
17:23
But I like to operate on the
17:26
principle that when somebody
17:26
comes into my business to work
17:29
with me, they know everything
17:29
that I would tell them in a in a
17:32
meeting or a conversation or if
17:32
a fee proposal, I almost want my
17:35
website to like, replace me as a
17:35
salesperson. Yeah, and I'm in
17:38
marketing. So I kind of have
17:38
like cultural permission to do
17:41
that. We're used to marketer
17:41
having like, way to marketie
17:45
websites, maybe architects can't
17:45
go fully that way. But I think
17:48
the more you put out there of
17:48
yourself and what you're really
17:51
like and what your business
17:51
really does, and how you
17:53
actually operate. If you are
17:53
looking for a better quality
17:57
clients, that's how you'll get
17:57
them. Because they will come to
18:00
you. And they will be already on
18:00
the same page, share a similar
18:03
philosophy, appreciate the same
18:03
kind of work and already be
18:07
accepting and having the right
18:07
expectations of what you're
18:10
going to do for them and what
18:10
you do and what you don't do.
18:12
And that's going to be the type
18:12
of client that you go, oh my
18:15
god, I'm so blessed to get to
18:15
work with these amazing clients.
18:18
And I don't have to do anything
18:18
to convince them to work with
18:20
me, my website has already done
18:20
it. So I would I just think
18:24
transparency is extremely
18:24
important when it comes to your
18:27
website and not hiding stuff.
18:27
And Nikita, you just made me
18:31
remember, like 1000s of clients
18:31
telling me things that they
18:34
like, where they just basically
18:34
tried to do the opposite of
18:37
whatever they really were. And
18:37
it was it's just such a such a
18:40
mistake.
18:41  Ayo Abbas
But it's whole
18:41
authenticity thing again, isn't
18:43
it, which I think is so
18:43
important to people. But also if
18:46
you're honest and open on who
18:46
you are on socials and on your
18:49
website, it helps qualify
18:49
people, right. So by the time
18:52
they come to you, they know what
18:52
to expect saves your shedload
18:56
the time and then when you start
18:56
winning when
18:59  Nikita Morell
Even the contact
18:59
page I always tell my clients
19:02
like that is like your bouncer
19:02
like that don't just say you
19:05
know, name and then message,
19:05
like put in fields like really
19:10
test them like because otherwise
19:10
you get all these enquiries, you
19:13
probably spend half a day
19:13
responding to them, and they're
19:15
not even like good leads. So you
19:15
know, ask them what their budget
19:19
is. Ask them, you know, describe
19:19
have you worked with an
19:21
architect before like describe
19:21
your project in 100 words, like
19:24
make it really hard for them.
19:24
The harder the better the
19:28
quality, as Dave said clients
19:28
will come through.
19:31  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, yeah, it saves
19:31
you a ton of time as well, isn't
19:34
it? I mean, I think that is the
19:34
key thing. So, my next question
19:39
is, so I'm gonna ask you another
19:39
controversial question. So do
19:46
you think marketing and selling
19:46
are seen as a dirty word by the
19:49
architecture profession? I'm
19:49
going to throw that one out,
19:51
Nikita.
19:56  Nikita Morell
I think look,
19:56
it's changing, I would say I
19:59
mean, genralising a lot, but the
19:59
emerging architects that are
20:02
coming up, that have kind of
20:02
just, you know, maybe a bit, not
20:06
being ageist, but like a bit
20:06
younger, they may be have been
20:10
exposed to it, they're a bit
20:10
more adapted, I find my clients
20:13
that have been in the industry
20:13
for 25 years or more, they're
20:16
the ones that maybe still seeing
20:16
marketing and selling is a
20:20
little bit dirty. Whereas I
20:20
think the merging architects are
20:22
quite, I mean, they've grown up
20:22
in an era and they've been
20:24
educated at school and stuff,
20:24
where they're like, it's part of
20:27
it, it's part of running, and
20:27
they run their practices more
20:30
like a business, you know, with
20:30
Archibiz and all these great
20:34
resources out there. I think,
20:34
hopefully, that mindset shift,
20:38
if you do see it like a
20:38
business, then you are open to,
20:41
you know, marketing is a
20:41
function of that. So
20:44  Ayo Abbas
just like HR or
20:44
anything else that you need to
20:46
do, yep. Dave is marketing a
20:46
dirty word marketing and
20:50
selling?
20:51  Dave Sharp
Give me more time to
20:51
think about it go to Amy.
20:53  Amy Edwards
I think, look, I
20:53
think it is I think they always
21:01
think that is that it is a dirty
21:01
word. And but I think there's a
21:05
few different reasons for that.
21:05
Like, I think, you know, Nikita
21:09
is bright, like a lot of the
21:09
younger practices that are
21:11
coming through in emerging
21:11
practices, you know, they're
21:13
very open to it. And then
21:13
they're also open to taking
21:16
advice about it, you know,
21:16
they're not, they're not shy
21:19
about learning more about
21:19
marketing, and how they can make
21:22
it better for their business. I
21:22
think I do find some of the the,
21:29
the older practices, or maybe
21:29
the the practices have been
21:31
around 20 plus years, they tend
21:31
to overthink everything, you
21:36
know, like they're scared about,
21:36
they're scared about what does
21:39
it mean for my, you know, my
21:39
reputation? What does it going
21:43
to say about me? What does it
21:43
mean about the work that we're
21:45
going to do moving forward? And
21:45
actually, what it comes down to
21:49
is just getting your work out
21:49
there, like people, just you've
21:52
just got to keep moving forward.
21:52
Like I think, you know, it's why
21:56
we all struggle as marketers
21:56
with email newsletters with
22:00
clients, because they want to
22:00
make it perfect, you know, that
22:03
you're aiming for perfection.
22:03
And I don't think it's ever
22:07
going to fit the perfect ideal
22:07
that they have in mind, you
22:12
know, it's never going to be
22:12
100%. And I also just think, you
22:16
know, in, in today's day and age
22:16
of being in a digital
22:18
environment, you know, things
22:18
are every 24 hours, things are
22:21
refreshed and changed over all
22:21
the time, you know, things, yes,
22:26
you've got to be consistent. And
22:26
yes, that's going to be
22:28
memorable. But, you know, it's
22:28
sort of forgotten about 24 hours
22:32
later. And then it's like, well,
22:32
what's happening next, you know,
22:34
it's like, what's, what's coming
22:34
next? And don't be so afraid of
22:36
just getting your ideas out
22:36
there and testing new things, is
22:41
probably my advice.
22:43  Ayo Abbas
So Dave, is marketing
22:43
and selling a dirty word to
22:47
architects?
22:48  Dave Sharp
Yes. Oh, absolutely.
22:49
Yeah, like 100%. I think I think
22:49
like there are, there are
22:55
architects that view it probably
22:55
in a more in a more positive
22:59
light, and probably have a
22:59
better understanding of how good
23:02
marketing can be and how good
23:02
marketing can be done, they've
23:04
maybe paid more attention to
23:04
that, or they're better
23:06
educated. So, they have a more
23:06
of an open mind those ones that
23:10
Nikita is referring to, but for
23:10
a lot of architects that don't,
23:14
you know, they're not really
23:14
observing much that's going on
23:16
in the marketing world, they
23:16
tend to notice bad marketing a
23:19
lot more. And they sort of
23:19
associate marketing with bad
23:22
marketing, that there is only
23:22
bad marketing, they don't really
23:24
think about good marketing, like
23:24
what does good marketing look
23:27
like? Yeah. And when they look
23:27
at the architects, they like,
23:30
they don't really connect this
23:30
idea of, oh their marketing is
23:32
actually influencing me, but how
23:32
are they doing it? How did I How
23:35
did I form that conclusion? I
23:35
haven't met them. I haven't been
23:38
to any of their buildings. Yet,
23:38
I still think they're my
23:40
favourite architects secretly.
23:40
Right? So how so like, we don't,
23:43
we don't really dwell on good
23:43
marketing. So I think there's
23:46
that factor. And there's this
23:46
bit of a perception that, you
23:48
know, the the worse you are as
23:48
an architect, in terms of your,
23:52
your, your mad drawing board
23:52
skills, you know, the more
23:55
architects, the more marketing
23:55
you have to do. So the more
23:58
marketing you're into, and the
23:58
more you invest in marketing,
24:01
the worse er, as an architect,
24:01
so this is kind of like there's
24:03
a stigma that's associated with
24:03
it as well. And, you know, it's
24:08
just, I think, I think there is
24:08
a there is some truth to the
24:13
idea that your work is the
24:13
single biggest differentiator in
24:17
like your marketing success, in
24:17
my opinion, I think that
24:21
architects should be striving to
24:21
do the best work that they
24:24
possibly can. But we recognise
24:24
that, you know, architects
24:28
aren't in full control of
24:28
everything. And sometimes the
24:32
architects that seem to put out
24:32
the best work are the ones that
24:34
it turns out, they were their
24:34
own client, or their client was
24:37
their brother, or whatever. Like
24:37
there's always a lot of that
24:39
sort of thing, because they did
24:39
get full control. And you know,
24:42
not every architect is going to
24:42
get full control. They're not
24:44
always going to, they're going
24:44
to strive but they may not
24:46
always get their work executed
24:46
as perfectly as it possibly
24:50  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, depends on the
24:50
procurement model, doesn't it?
24:50
could.
24:51
Yeah, it does. And
24:53  Dave Sharp
then what we want to
24:53
think about holistically is
24:55
marketing involves, you know, I
24:55
like to try and work with my
24:58
clients on many are thinking out
24:58
outside of just like social
25:01
media and email and website and
25:01
stuff like that, but thinking
25:03
all the way back to like how you
25:03
pick the right clients that are
25:06
going to, that are going to try
25:06
to or how you filter for bad
25:09
clients, how you pick the right
25:09
clients, how you're going to
25:12
create an environment, that's
25:12
going to make it as easy as
25:14
possible for you to do really
25:14
good work, because that's kind
25:17
of where the marketing starts,
25:17
you know, and then going through
25:21
to just really investing in
25:21
quality, I think in your
25:24
photography and your video and
25:24
stuff like that. Some architects
25:27
want to explore other channels,
25:27
and they're more game to do
25:30
that, like where it where it is
25:30
maybe a little bit more 21st
25:33
century stuff, like, you know,
25:33
the the lead magnets and
25:36
whatever or running Facebook
25:36
ads, like that stuff is a little
25:39
bit more marketing ease, but you
25:39
know, yeah, but but i think i
25:43
think if you're if you're really
25:43
business driven, you shouldn't
25:46
be limited by like, just hoping
25:46
your portfolio turns out, you
25:50
know, the way that you hoped it
25:50
would, because you know, it may
25:52
still be brilliant, but no one
25:52
wants to do more, you might have
25:56
loftier goals, you might have
25:56
higher aspirations. And so no
25:59
one, no one comes to a marketing
25:59
consultant, because they're
26:02
absolutely satisfied with
26:02
exactly the quality of the
26:04
client I have right now. And the
26:04
quantity of the client I have
26:07
right now. There's always I want
26:07
to achieve more I want more
26:10
clients or better clients in
26:10
some real practical a specific
26:13
way. Yeah, how do I do that. And
26:13
that's where marketing comes in.
26:16
Because marketing can help you
26:16
to do that. And so if you are
26:19
like driven and you do have
26:19
goals, and you're aspiring to do
26:22
bigger and better things with
26:22
your practice, then marketing is
26:25
gonna be a really good way for
26:25
you to do it.
26:26  Ayo Abbas
Totally agree. And I
26:26
also think it's the thing of, we
26:29
kind of come at it from a
26:29
different angle, and we ask them
26:31
lots more questions and
26:31
interrogate them dare I say it
26:35
and I think that's an important
26:35
part of what we do is, you know,
26:37
to try to challenge their
26:37
thinking, and actually, have you
26:40
considered this and I, then
26:40
that's an important part of the
26:42
process, in terms of what we do.
26:42
Okay, so, um,
26:52
so
26:55
I think I'm gonna go on to my
26:55
final question, actually. So
26:58
what one tip would you give to
26:58
business leaders now about how
27:02
to make a dent, as we head
27:02
towards kind of recovery and
27:05
into kind of the rest of 21 2021
27:05
and 2022, I'm gonna give that
27:11
one to Amy.
27:14  Amy Edwards
I think the biggest
27:14
thing is about being consistent,
27:18
but also measuring what you're
27:18
doing and adapting, you know,
27:21
don't be frightened of trying
27:21
and testing new things. But
27:27
definitely be open to adaptation
27:27
of what you're doing, and how
27:32
that's going to help you move
27:32
your practice forward. I think
27:35
if you you know, if you're
27:35
looking at a 12 month strategy,
27:39
I think you're probably in the
27:39
wrong place. You know, I think
27:42
it's got to be shorter term,
27:42
maybe it's a three month
27:45
strategy that you follow through
27:45
on and then re measure and adapt
27:50
to what you're doing to the
27:50
market. And I think that's the
27:53
only way that people can recover
27:53
out of this is is to keep
27:57
evolving as a practice.
27:59  Ayo Abbas
And what's your one
27:59
tip, Nikita in terms of people
28:02
coming out of kind of recovery?
28:02
And the crazy year, we've had?
28:07  Nikita Morell
Yeah, I think we
28:07
touched on it. But it would
28:09
probably be like, don't try and
28:09
do it yourself, because you're
28:12
not going to find the time that
28:12
you need to at least recruit
28:14
someone to help you stay
28:14
accountable. Again, as Amy said,
28:19
consistency is key. So you know,
28:19
hire a marketing expert to come
28:23
in and take care of it for you.
28:23
So it's just one less thing you
28:27
have to, you know, have hanging
28:27
at the bottom of your to do
28:31
list.
28:32  Ayo Abbas
Absolutely. And
28:32
finally, on to you, Dave, what
28:35
is your one tip. So as we head
28:35
into recovery,
28:37  Dave Sharp
it's gonna be a sort
28:37
of an extension of niketas, in a
28:39
sense of like, one thing that
28:39
I've realised over the last
28:43
probably it's become so
28:43
important over the last sort of
28:44
6-12 months is that if you are
28:44
working on your marketing, it's
28:49
not like the other tasks that
28:49
you have when you're running an
28:51
architecture practice, because
28:51
it is so based on doing like a
28:55
pretty consistent amount of
28:55
hours on a given monthly basis.
28:59
Like maybe you do two hours a
28:59
month on it. And you should
29:02
pretty much be doing that every
29:02
month. And as an architect, I
29:06
guarantee 99% of you do not have
29:06
systems in place in your office
29:11
designed towards getting you
29:11
doing a set amount of something
29:14
each month. It's always based on
29:14
priority and urgency because you
29:17
have deadlines and you
29:17
completely work around
29:20
deadlines. Your marketing does
29:20
not have deadlines. So you need
29:24
to make sure that you're not
29:24
using your regular system that
29:27
you use to keep yourself
29:27
accountable and figure out what
29:30
you're doing for your marketing.
29:30
It has to be separate. So I
29:33
recommend I recommend getting
29:33
making sure you're using a
29:36
calendar and actually going
29:36
ahead of the month ahead and
29:39
blocking out marketing time.
29:39
Then once you've done that and
29:43
protected it, then figure out
29:43
what you're going to do with
29:46
that time to get the maximum
29:46
effect out of that time. That's
29:49
like having a great idea of what
29:49
you're going to do is so much
29:53
less important than actually
29:53
budgeting that time and doing it
29:55
and also working with somebody
29:55
who can help you like Nikita
29:58
said like and You know, that wa
29:58
helpful in terms of what you d
30:03
in that time, right, that'
30:03
where you're going to get a lo
30:05
more bang for your buck i
30:05
you've got somebody who'
30:07
helping to guide you. And like
30:07
it's like having a persona
30:10
trainer at the gym. You can g
30:10
in there and just start lik
30:14
picking up dumbbells and sta
30:14
t pushing machines around
30:16
r whatever. But there's somebo
30:16
y who has helped who's help
30:19
d other people and who can sa
30:19
, you should be doing this, th
30:22
s and this in this time and th
30:22
n later on, we'll move on to thi
30:24
, this and this right, so but
30:24
I think the first thing to do
30:27
s get that time available becau
30:27
e you cannot completely outsour
30:31
e your marketing as an architec
30:31
, that would be a massive mista
30:33
e in my opinion. So you're gon
30:33
a ultimately need to
30:36
e accountable for it and then ma
30:36
e the time. Brillian
30:46  Ayo Abbas
Thanks so much for
30:46
listening to the latest episode
30:47
of Marketing In Times of
30:47
Recovery, and I'm your host Ayo
30:50
babs. If you want to find out
30:50
more about the BI weekly show do
30:53
check out the show notes which
30:53
will give you more information
30:55
about who the guests are and all
30:55
the things we've covered. And if
30:59
you're listening on Apple or
30:59
Spotify, make sure you hit the
31:02
subscribe button so you don't
31:02
miss out on an episode. Until
31:05
next time, bye