Marketing In Times of Recovery

Marketing In Times Of Crisis has changed its name to Marketing In Times of Recovery. It's still a bi-weekly interview-led podcast series featuring inspirational built environment business leaders but more with a look to the future. We’ve had to weather crisis’ before and podcast listeners hear lively conversations, jam-packed with hints, tips and takeaways that you can apply to your business now. Hosted by Ayo Abbas, Founder / Consultant, Abbas Marketing. Subscribe now, rate, review and help us to spread the word.

https://www.abbasmarketing.com/mitc-podcast

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episode 19: Ep 19: Part II: Marketing Channels (LinkedIn, Email, Tik Tok) with Dave Sharp, Nikita Morell and Amy Edwards [transcript]


Here’s part 2 of our Australian takeover special.   If you’ve not checked out part 1 make sure you do then listen to this one.
Welcome to my newly revamped podcast Marketing In Times of Recovery.  
I'm your host Ayo Abbas a built environment marketing consultant from Abbas Marketing.

My guests are:
Amy Edwards, Markedly
Nikita Morell, Copywriter and Marketing Strategist
Dave Sharp,
Vanity Projects

This is part two of a three-part special which is being released weekly covering many aspects of marketing from strategy to social to print and everything in between. 
Part III will be out on Friday 04 June.
 
This three-part special was recorded on Thurs May 06 2021.

Rate and review us

Please don’t forget to rate and review us if you’re listening on Apple podcasts as it’s lovely to hear what you think plus it helps us to spread the word.

Resources - For full show notes with links go to www.abbasmarketing.com/mitc-podcast 


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 2021-05-28  34m
 
 
00:05  Ayo Abbas
Here's part two of my
00:05
interview with Amy, Dave and
00:08
Nikita, if you've not checked
00:08
out part one, have a look at
00:10
your feed and do that before you
00:10
listen to this one, take care
00:13
and enjoy. Are there any
00:13
practices that you think kind of
00:21
stand out in terms of their
00:21
marketing? And is there kind of
00:24
any particular ones that kind of
00:24
this year that you think have
00:27
done a really good job? I'm
00:27
going to ask Dave.
00:31  Dave Sharp
Oh, so for me, this
00:31
is always the hard question. I'm
00:35
often when it comes to providing
00:35
like good examples of precedents
00:38
that's like Nikita and I work
00:38
have started working on a
00:41
podcast, that's gonna apparently
00:41
be all about finding good
00:44
examples, and I have literally
00:44
nothing to contribute to it
00:52
Honestly, I think, you know,
00:52
it's, it's, it's tough to say
00:56
maybe I should just pass it on.
00:56
Because I think Nikita and I may
00:58
have like loads of different
00:58
examples, i think i think i
01:02
don't i don't see it as much as
01:02
there are a single practices
01:05
that do every aspect of
01:05
marketing really well, and they
01:08
like really stood out because
01:08
they're amazing marketers, I
01:10
think it's more about
01:10
individual, the small,
01:14
noticeable points of difference
01:14
things that they've just done a
01:17
little bit differently. That's
01:17
Yeah, that to me, they overall
01:20
might not be great marketers,
01:20
but the one thing I they may
01:24
have noticed, like one stroke of
01:24
genius, and I really appreciate
01:27
them for that. Like the people
01:27
that I ask to be on my podcasts
01:30
are often times not doing that
01:30
much marketing, but one aspect
01:33
of their marketing is done
01:33
really well. And that's why I
01:36
love them. So I think I don't
01:36
know that's not really giving
01:39
you specific examples, but
01:39
except maybe listen to my
01:42
podcast to find out some
01:42
examples. Audience Yeah,
01:45  Ayo Abbas
but he hasn't got any
01:45
remember
01:50  Dave Sharp
You have to tune in
01:50
to find out.
01:53  Ayo Abbas
Listen to mine.
01:53
Nikita, you say what kind of a
02:00
particular practice that you
02:00
think have got good standout
02:02
kind of examples in terms of
02:02
what they do and how they market
02:05
themselves?
02:07  Nikita Morell
Yeah, I mean, one
02:07
that comes to mind is I think
02:11
they're pronounced Kuzman
02:11
architects. Oh, Kuzman
02:13
architects and they're running
02:13
this design challenge at the
02:17
moment called 10 by 3.
02:21  Dave Sharp
That's my client!.
02:21  Nikita Morell
And that, is that
02:21
there you go.
02:27  Dave Sharp
Please do the work
02:27
for me, please.
02:31  Nikita Morell
Now I'm gonna
02:31
Yeah, now I'm gonna get you can
02:36
talk to them.
02:38  Dave Sharp
I honestly feel
02:38
terrible. Please, please
02:40
continue. Please continue. I'm
02:40
sorry, I'm sorry. I just I just
02:45
wanted to regain some territory
02:45
and say, I do know some examples
02:48
they're my clients that I always
02:48
forget.
02:55  Nikita Morell
They're running a
02:55
design a design challenge, which
02:58
I thought is a great way to, I
02:58
guess, yeah, get some traction.
03:03
And then Anthony Richardson from
03:03
The Design Emotive, he's
03:06
obviously creating these short
03:06
videos. And, yeah, it's just, I
03:10
think, doing things that's not
03:10
directly related to a firm's own
03:15
work, you know, but it can kind
03:15
of step outside and showcase
03:19
your your skills, rather than
03:19
just like, I think a lot of
03:22
architects just focus on the end
03:22
product, you know, the project,
03:26
like, this is what we send, you
03:26
never really see all the behind
03:29
the scenes, and that's where the
03:29
value is added, right? Like
03:31
anyone can show you a picture of
03:31
a pretty building, but it will,
03:33
how did you get there? And that
03:33
also, I think, helps them get
03:37
better clients, because, you
03:37
know, you're not going to get
03:40
these clients to change their
03:40
mind 10,000 times and, and then
03:43
or, you know, ask for something
03:43
to change overnight. Because
03:46
they understand, like, what goes
03:46
into it and what they're paying
03:48
for. So, yeah, I think that's a
03:48
great strategy Dave.
03:52  Ayo Abbas
Amy, did you have any
03:52
examples of practices? Who do
03:59
marketing really well, at the
03:59
moment?
04:02  Amy Edwards
Look, I think I
04:02
think a lot of the smaller
04:04
practices are doing really well.
04:04
I think they're just I think
04:08
they're just testing stuff out,
04:08
you know, like they're testing
04:10
things out and trying it and
04:10
adapting and, but moving forward
04:14
and keeping things interesting.
04:14
One practice, who I work with
04:19
here locally, they before that,
04:19
before starting working with me,
04:22
they they took on some advice
04:22
around their social media,
04:25
mostly around working with a
04:25
copywriter and in finding their
04:29
tone of voice and but also
04:29
defining their personality and
04:32
being comfortable with that. And
04:32
really through all of last year
04:36
through 2020 they really
04:36
implemented that and just were
04:39
themselves so that you know,
04:39
they were authentic and and just
04:42
put who they were forward and
04:42
actually, it's just way too
04:46
beautifully for them. So for
04:46
their names Maytree Studios, and
04:49
they have grown immensely over
04:49
that time, just by being
04:54
themselves you know, because
04:54
they connect with people who
04:56
actually like minded. You know,
04:56
they end up getting clients who
04:59
you know who they are straight
04:59
up, they're straight shooters.
05:03
But also they're very
05:03
personable. And I think, I think
05:07
if you can, if you can combine
05:07
some kind of level of
05:09
authenticity with, you know, a
05:09
tone of voice that represents
05:13
who you are adapted, you're
05:13
going, I think you're going to
05:17
get a great audience that comes
05:17
along for the ride for the long
05:19
term.
05:21  Ayo Abbas
Brilliant, thank you
05:21
for that. And now, I guess, I am
05:26
going to go a bit back slightly
05:26
to kind of social media and kind
05:29
of now Dave, I know when he said
05:29
that, you know, two years ago,
05:33
Amos (Goldreich)was looking at
05:33
Instagram and things like that.
05:35
So if you're a practice, he's
05:35
starting out now, are they kind
05:39
of particular tips that you can
05:39
give them if they want to get
05:41
going with social media and
05:41
digital? Or should they not
05:43
bother?
05:46  Dave Sharp
Oh, it's a really,
05:46
it's a really good question in
05:49
terms of how, how big is your
05:49
portfolio going to be your
05:54
biggest strength, and I know
05:54
that I'm probably very
05:56
traditional there. But if the
05:56
best thing you could possibly do
06:00
is roll out like an immaculate,
06:00
amazing portfolio that is like
06:03
far above average, in the
06:03
industry, like, make sure that
06:06
you've got some self awareness,
06:06
and you're looking at your work
06:08
and going, is this work legit,
06:08
if your work is super legit,
06:12
way, way above the average in
06:12
the industry, and genuinely,
06:16
then Instagram is probably going
06:16
to be a really good place for
06:18
you in terms of growing.
06:18
Otherwise, you can, you can also
06:22
just have like a really cool, if
06:22
you've got like a really cool
06:25
company culture, and you're very
06:25
design centric, I also think
06:28
that Instagram can be really
06:28
good for you in terms of your
06:31
process, your studio
06:31
environment, you know, some of
06:34
the some of the process and
06:34
collateral around how you design
06:37
if that is, if that gives me
06:37
FOMO, like, I want to meet you
06:41
and go to your studio and work
06:41
with you. Because everything
06:43
that you do looks amazing and so
06:43
cool, then I think Instagram is
06:47
also really good for that. But
06:47
if a firm isn't meeting those
06:51
criteria, I think it is going to
06:51
be like maybe a little bit more
06:54
of a struggle. And I would
06:54
probably suggest, you know,
06:57
maybe, you know, try and go
06:57
where all the other architects
07:00
aren't and explore other
07:00
options, because there might be
07:03
something out there that's
07:03
actually kind of easy for you to
07:06
be one of the best at that
07:06
doesn't involve, you know, the
07:10
photographer's you're hiring or
07:10
the videographers that you're
07:12
working with all the sorts of
07:12
things that have become kind of
07:15
standard fare on Instagram these
07:15
days, like it is super
07:18
competitive on Instagram amongst
07:18
architects. That's just the
07:21
reality of it. So if you want to
07:21
compete, then go for it. But but
07:24
but it don't, you know, don't be
07:24
close minded to other other
07:27
options as well.
07:29  Ayo Abbas
Okay, so what other
07:29
options should they be
07:32
exploring? Do you reckon? I
07:32
mean, I'm gonna ask you that one
07:35
Amy.
07:37  Amy Edwards
I think it really
07:37
comes always have to come back
07:39
to Who's your audience? And
07:39
where, where are they? Where are
07:44
they going? You know, it's, I
07:44
think, you know, Instagram is
07:47
great. And I think you're right,
07:47
like a lot of lot of practices
07:51
go on there, because it's
07:51
visual, and they enjoy it
07:53
themselves. But then, then
07:53
sometimes it's not actually
07:57
getting the return for them.
07:57
Because it's, that's not
08:00
actually where the audience is,
08:00
you know, their industries
08:02
there. And they get great
08:02
accolades amongst their peers,
08:04
but they're not actually getting
08:04
the clients out of it. So I
08:10
think there's, I think there's a
08:10
bit of a return to email
08:13
marketing, I think it's coming
08:13
back again, a bit. But also a
08:17
bit of snail mail, like just
08:17
regular post stuff, like where
08:20
you can make something that's
08:20
really beautiful and tactile and
08:25
intangible that people can come
08:25
back to I think, you know, in
08:28
this age of where everything's
08:28
very digital and digital
08:31
overload, I think people are
08:31
getting tired. And I think
08:34
there's, there's this
08:34
opportunity there that people
08:36
aren't really using. So perhaps
08:36
there's something in that. I
08:40
think you really still have to
08:40
come back to your audience. And
08:43
where are they? Where are they
08:43
sitting? And how can I reach in
08:45
the best way?
08:48  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, at the moment
08:48
here in the UK, people are back
08:51
in their offices yet. And that's
08:51
still gradually being phased in.
08:54
So but but I do, I mean, who
08:54
doesn't love getting a beautiful
08:58
piece of mail? I mean, I do. I
08:58
still do. It's still really,
09:02
really lovely.
09:03  Amy Edwards
I'm interested with
09:03
that. The other thing about too,
09:06
though, I'd love Nikita, I'd
09:06
love to hear what you thought on
09:08
that, too.
09:09  Nikita Morell
I hope that is
09:09
kind of emails and that but I
09:13
also think, I mean, I don't
09:13
know, probably you guys probably
09:16
know better than me. But I guess
09:16
step back from marketing is this
09:20
idea of, you know, what you want
09:20
to be known for? And what's
09:23
that? I always think of it as I
09:23
have this, I guess a framework
09:27
called the Architects Blueprint
09:27
to becoming unforgettable or
09:30
memorable. And it's you need two
09:30
things need to stand out. And
09:34
then you need to stand for
09:34
something and the sweet spot
09:36
where those two things meet.
09:36
It's this idea of visible
09:38
expertise. So you're known for
09:38
that thing. And what I have seen
09:43
a little bit of late is people
09:43
are in this I guess, could be
09:46
another whole podcast episode,
09:46
this idea of niching and, you
09:49
know, being known for that one
09:49
thing and I've seen a few
09:52
websites like I think it's Eon
09:52
Design. They're just focusing on
09:56
restaurants
09:56  Dave Sharp
Another client oh my
09:56
god
10:00  Nikita Morell
Really, Dave
10:10  Amy Edwards
A promo for Dave.
10:14  Ayo Abbas
I'm sure he'll have a
10:14
sponsored segway.
10:18  Dave Sharp
Coming via snail
10:18
mail. Thank you. I promise I
10:26
won't do that again.
10:28  Nikita Morell
No, No, no.
10:30
Yeah. But I mean, there's a lot
10:30
of things that you know, Vale
10:33
Architects - Scott Vallantine
10:33
he's doing? Is he your client
10:37
too Dave?!
10:39
he's is doing hospitality design
10:39
and focusing on that? So I
10:44
think, yeah, with this niche
10:44
like, and once you have a focus,
10:48
then your marketing it kind of,
10:48
you can do things like email
10:52
marketing, and that because you
10:52
are more focused, and you know,
10:54
you have a clear idea of who
10:54
your audience is, Amy said is
10:57
so, yeah, my
10:58  Ayo Abbas
and they've all got
10:58
specific things that they need
11:00
from you, as well as it makes it
11:00
easier to talk to them as well,
11:03
isn't it? I mean, that's kind
11:03
of, yeah. But it's interesting,
11:07
because my email there are,
11:07
there have been people saying,
11:10
Oh, well, emails, dead and all
11:10
this kind of stuff, but I really
11:12
don't think it is, um, because I
11:12
was listening to something
11:15
before this. And actually
11:15
listening to the whole thing
11:19
around privacy and the rise of
11:19
privacy and Facebook, kind of
11:22
and Apple having that kind of
11:22
spat at the moment, and what's
11:26
going to happen in terms of
11:26
cookies. So I think that whole
11:28
thing of owning data and privacy
11:28
is gonna definitely be something
11:32
that people are gonna be having
11:32
to deal with. And face and ads
11:36
aren't going to be as targeted
11:36
and things like that. So I think
11:38
having your own data and being
11:38
able to talk to people is going
11:41
to be the way forward. But I
11:41
don't think we necessarily do
11:43
that as an industry that often.
11:43
Sorry, Nikita,
11:46  Nikita Morell
sorry, Ayo,
11:46
interrupt. I was just gonna say
11:48
when, for me personally, I don't
11:48
know if Amy agrees about like,
11:51
when we talked about email
11:51
marketing, it isn't these like
11:54
beautiful newsletters that it,
11:54
you know, take weeks to put
11:57
together. But I think there's
11:57
that misconception in the
12:00
industry as well. where like,
12:00
What are you trying to say, you
12:08
know, like one sentence like
12:08
somewhere? That, I think, no,
12:12
yeah. But I think it's more
12:12
about, yeah, just having like,
12:16
just straight text emails that
12:16
are engaging and, you know,
12:19
collecting that, that first name
12:19
of the person, so you can
12:22
integrate it in and make it feel
12:22
like an email to the fact that
12:25
one on one conversation, I think
12:25
that just needed to be
12:28
clarified.
12:30  Unknown
Yeah, I'm with that.
12:30
100%. Like, I always have this
12:34
discussion when I first raise
12:34
all right, it's email marketing
12:36
time with my clients, and
12:36
they're like, email marketing,
12:39
oh, god, I'm like, No, no, no,
12:39
not not, like the big chunky
12:43
newsletters, like emails that
12:43
start like, Hi, Dave. Thanks.
12:48
You know, like, just normal
12:48
emails. And it's, it's just
12:51
about using email to communicate
12:51
with, you know, more than one
12:56
person at a time is the is the
12:56
simple idea. Yeah. And I think
13:00
why in principle, were all going
13:00
towards email marketing, or this
13:03
using email more, is that I
13:03
think it's this recognition that
13:07
like, you're not going to be
13:07
able to always go out there and
13:10
find new people, new people, new
13:10
people in your marketing and
13:13
your comms like, you're
13:13
eventually going to have to
13:15
focus on the audience of like,
13:15
however, many true fans that you
13:19
currently have, and actually do
13:19
more with them.
13:23  Ayo Abbas
It's a much easier
13:23
sell, isn't it, they're already
13:25
bought into you.
13:26  Dave Sharp
They're already
13:26
bought into you. And I think
13:28
what I've noticed over time is
13:28
that architects actually really
13:31
suck on the follow through, like
13:31
what happens after you after you
13:35
get published, and they see for
13:35
the first time and they come to
13:38
your website, what happens after
13:38
that, usually not very much, we
13:41
don't actually make much of an
13:41
effort or devote much energy to
13:44
like, interaction number 23456
13:44
with those people. So I think
13:49
that's why we're super focused
13:49
on email. Also, like on
13:52
Instagram, we're thinking about
13:52
Instagram stories, because
13:55
that's more directed towards
13:55
your, like existing followers,
13:59
and trying to be more engaging
13:59
to your like, current audience.
14:02
And that's where content comes
14:02
in writing comes in video comes
14:05
in and stuff like that. So yeah,
14:05
like anything that is about
14:10
getting, like squeezing more
14:10
opportunity out of the people
14:13
that already are aware of you, I
14:13
think is like good marketing to
14:16
be doing right now.
14:17  Ayo Abbas
Definitely. Yeah,
14:18  Amy Edwards
I would agree on
14:18
that. 100%.
14:20  Ayo Abbas
So how can you get
14:20
your existing customers to do
14:23
more any kind of tips or ideas?
14:23
Amy
14:25  Amy Edwards
I think I think
14:25
it's got to be, I think it's
14:28
based on values, like how, like,
14:28
what's the impact or the value
14:32
that marketing is going to have
14:32
for practice? What is the end
14:35
result for them? You know, it
14:35
probably depends on a lot of
14:37
their goals and what they're
14:37
trying to achieve and then where
14:40
they're heading a little bit
14:40
too, but I think it's really
14:45
going to be based on the value
14:45
of what you can provide for them
14:47
and, and how that can help their
14:47
business move forward.
14:50  Ayo Abbas
So there's a kind of
14:50
rise of kind of new features on
14:53
certain platforms and new, I
14:53
guess, new features on platforms
14:57
like things like the creator
14:57
modes on LinkedIn. And also, you
15:01
know, more stuff in terms of
15:01
Instagram Lives. And also, I
15:05
guess the new things like
15:05
Clubhouse, or you know, Twitter
15:08
Spaces? I mean, how can people
15:08
kind of get to grips with them?
15:13
And even should they? I mean,
15:13
for that one to you Nikita?
15:17  Nikita Morell
Yeah. So I mean,
15:17
I guess the way I approach
15:21
again, it goes back to an ideal
15:21
client, like if your goal it
15:23
depends on what your marketing
15:23
objectives are obviously, like,
15:26
there's lots of different ones
15:26
it could be, you know, to raise
15:28
your awareness locally, or it
15:28
could be to be known for a
15:31
certain one thing or, but I
15:31
mean, if it is to get more
15:34
projects or a steady flow
15:34
projects, and I think, yeah,
15:39
like it's about, I guess,
15:39
consistency and being in front
15:44
of them, because I think the
15:44
biggest thing is that the design
15:47
sales cycle is slow. So it is
15:47
being about like memorability,
15:51
because someone could be ready
15:51
to hire an architect today or in
15:54
three years. But if you're not
15:54
there, women are looking to hire
15:58
someone. And that's kind of
15:58
where it so I think consistency
16:02
is key to that. Wait, what was
16:02
your question?
16:10  Ayo Abbas
It was just, I was
16:10
talking mainly about, you know,
16:12
the kind of a new channels that
16:12
are coming up and the new. I
16:15
mean, there's always new
16:15
features on social media at the
16:17
moment isn't there? And I think
16:17
I was listening to something
16:18
beforehand. And he was basically
16:18
saying that like 500 million new
16:21
users come on board globally on
16:21
social media in the past year,
16:24
which is insane. But yeah, I
16:24
guess it's like, new thing. Have
16:29
you got stuff like Clubhouse?
16:29
And there's a lot to keep up
16:31
with?
16:33  Nikita Morell
Well, and I
16:33
think, Dave, you could probably
16:34
speak to this better. But I
16:34
think also like, you've got to
16:37
ask, like, as Amy says, like,
16:37
how many clients do you need? Is
16:41
that following or being on
16:41
clubhouse at 24? Seven worth it
16:45
or like, I mean, how many
16:45
projects do you need to be
16:49
successful? Like, maybe there's
16:49
100,000 followers on Instagram
16:52
that you're chasing is really
16:52
not worth it? So ask yourself,
16:55
like, Where are my ideal clients
16:55
hanging out? You know, like the
16:59
really, really good ones and how
16:59
do I get in front of them and it
17:01
might only be five people as we
17:01
just sent that email. This might
17:04
only be 10. superfans, but
17:04
that's all you need.
17:07  Ayo Abbas
So true. So say and
17:07
Dave should I be on Clubhouse?
17:12
Are you on Clubhouse?
17:13  Dave Sharp
No, yeah, I am. But
17:13
I just ignore it. I was so
17:16
bullish on it. I even I bet you
17:16
know, architects who are jumping
17:19
onto it the first couple of
17:19
weeks it came out I had
17:22
architects booking meetings with
17:22
me going like, could we pay you
17:25
to like talk to us about our our
17:25
our Clubhouse strategy. And I
17:28
was like, I only literally
17:28
signed up for it yesterday, but
17:30
I can talk to you about it. So
17:30
So no, I don't I don't think I
17:35
don't think you need to just go
17:35
rushing on to any any new
17:37
platform, although they do you
17:37
know, whatever. It's always good
17:40
to like, the best way to learn
17:40
about something new is just to
17:43
like, go and try it out, as I
17:43
mentioned earlier, but with most
17:47
of the time and most of these
17:47
new platforms that spring up,
17:50
eventually they're going to
17:50
become part of Instagram and
17:52
Facebook anyway. So yeah,
17:52
Clubhouse has already been taken
17:57
into Twitter Spaces, Instagram
17:57
is going to have some sort of
18:00
like Stories based Spaces. I
18:00
don't know what they're going to
18:03
call it. But you'll be able to
18:03
click on Stories. And there'll
18:06
be a group of people having a
18:06
chat. And I think that will be
18:09
absolutely massive for
18:09
architects where I can start
18:12
having like industry, kind of
18:12
chitchat conversations about you
18:17
know, issues in the industry and
18:17
the public can join in on that.
18:21
I think that'll be really
18:21
interesting. And that's probably
18:23
the boring version. The fun
18:23
version is probably talking
18:25
about homes and renovations and
18:25
all this sort of stuff. But any
18:29
any sort of niche within
18:29
architecture, there'll be like
18:32
rooms where people can talk
18:32
about it, which will be great.
18:35
And it will be such a game
18:35
changer to like hear architects
18:38
voices for the first time.
18:38
Because 99.5% of architects have
18:43
not been a guest on a podcast,
18:43
they don't have any videos on
18:46
YouTube, and their voice has
18:46
never been heard on the internet
18:49
in the history of the world. So
18:49
and because their voices
18:52
missing, you really don't know
18:52
who they are as a person. But so
18:58
yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Which is
18:58
absolutely pointless because it
19:02
comes back to the Katie's point
19:02
about likability. likability is
19:06
like massively important and
19:06
instantly, you know, audio helps
19:11
people to be more likeable. So
19:11
but basically, I think like the
19:14
only social media channels that
19:14
anybody needs to really be
19:16
thinking about is Instagram.
19:16
Where am I going with this?
19:21
Yeah, Instagram. LinkedIn is
19:21
very legit, particularly even if
19:25
you are residential. But
19:25
definitely, if you're non
19:27
residential, and a very legit
19:27
competitor is Tik Tok, and that
19:32
will be enormous. That's like
19:32
escape velocity, velocity, like
19:37
Instagram is not just going to
19:37
consume Tik Tok that's going to
19:39
be its own thing. And it's going
19:39
to get bigger and bigger and
19:42
bigger. And so I think it would
19:42
be worthwhile for firms to think
19:45
about doing that. Think about
19:45
experimenting with Tik Tok
19:47
because everybody's using it.
19:47
It's much more enjoyable than
19:50
Instagram, and million miles
19:50
more enjoyable than Facebook. So
19:53
it will do well by a
19:56  Ayo Abbas
younger audience,
19:56
isn't it?
19:58  Dave Sharp
It's a younger
19:58
audience, but instead grandma's
20:00
a younger audience, you know,
20:00
then I think when we grew up, I
20:03
feel like everybody, you know,
20:03
it goes up generations, like
20:07
quickly, like within a six month
20:07
time frame, it'll be like
20:10
everybody, everybody will be
20:10
using these sorts of things.
20:13
Maybe not six months, maybe a
20:13
year in six months, but you
20:15
know, within a window. And if
20:15
you look at, you know, if you go
20:19
on tik tok, and look at like the
20:19
architecture or interior design
20:22
hashtags, and see the kind of
20:22
views and likes and engagement
20:25
that some of these really
20:25
amateurish videos are ranking up
20:28
racking up from people that have
20:28
really like, very basic, basic
20:32
design stuff going on. It's
20:32
pretty, there's pretty good
20:35
opportunity there for
20:35
architects, I think.
20:38
Yeah, so Tik Tok Tik Tok. It's
20:38
also very fun and addictive, and
20:46
you'll just yeah, you'll get
20:46
completely sucked into it. So
20:48
yeah, go on Tik Tok
20:53  Amy Edwards
get pulled down the
20:53
rabbit hole with with Tick tock,
20:56
and I'll never get out again.
20:58  Dave Sharp
If I lie down, if I
20:58
lie down on the on the couch and
21:01
start opening up, Tik tok, it's
21:01
like, you know, it's like,
21:04
tomorrow morning before?
21:06  Ayo Abbas
Are you doing a dance
21:06
as well Dave,
21:12  Dave Sharp
I don't move, I
21:12
don't even twitch a muscle, it's
21:14
literally by some muscle.
21:20  Ayo Abbas
I have to mate like
21:20
sometimes I do kind of go take
21:22
it up and actually look at it,
21:22
but I kind of break it down and
21:26
kind of think, how are they
21:26
doing this video? And what is it
21:28
they're doing, and you kind of
21:28
use that as inspiration? It's a
21:30
great stuff out there, I really,
21:30
really, really good stuff when
21:34
you kind of break it down and
21:34
see how it all works. But that's
21:37
why I
21:38  Amy Edwards
actually am i think
21:38
i think other creatives that
21:41
using that space really well,
21:41
you know, like Tik Tok and Reels
21:46
as well on Instagram, I think
21:46
other creatives like, you know,
21:49
like, people who are doing
21:49
ceramic art or, or painters or
21:54
craft makers and things like
21:54
that, that, uh, you know, I
21:57
know, that's not architecture,
21:57
but I think in that creative
21:59
industry, and in that design
21:59
industry, that really showing
22:03
their process, you know, in a
22:03
great way, you know, and they're
22:06
being imaginative, and they're
22:06
being creative about how they're
22:09
going about it. And I think
22:09
there's something that can be
22:12
learned there, you know, that
22:12
architects can look at or
22:15
designers can look at and think,
22:15
oh, how they're doing that? How
22:19
can I apply that to my process?
22:19
You know, sometimes I think
22:23
architects tend to undervalue
22:23
their process, I think they just
22:26
think it's all about this end
22:26
image and how beautiful it looks
22:29
as a finished product. But I
22:29
think what generally audiences
22:34
more broadly are interested in
22:34
is that process and how they got
22:37
to that point, you know, that's
22:37
the creativity that makes people
22:41
want to employ them and make
22:41
them want to engage them as an
22:45
architect for their for their
22:45
project.
22:47  Ayo Abbas
And you're kind of
22:47
the Markedly. stories on
22:50
Instagram are brilliant, by the
22:50
way, Amy? And how do you tackle
22:54
them? And how, what's your kind
22:54
of? What's your approach? I saw
22:57
this question cuz I want to copy
22:57
the,.
23:01  Amy Edwards
On Instagram
23:01
stories,
23:03  Ayo Abbas
stories, yeah, cuz
23:03
you post quite a lot on there.
23:05
And I always kind of think how
23:05
spiration, to post and all of
23:08
that kind of stuff.
23:11  Amy Edwards
Maybe the
23:11
inspiration to post because I
23:13
haven't done anything on my
23:13
regular feed for a little while.
23:17
I think that generally comes
23:17
from when I get really busy. I'm
23:20
like, Oh, my God, I that's just
23:20
going to the bottom of list. And
23:23
I'm just like every other client
23:23
that I tell not to do that, I
23:26
actually do the same thing that
23:26
they do. But I think in Stories,
23:30
like I genuinely genuinely like
23:30
to share things that are of
23:34
value to people, you know, or if
23:34
it's fun, or something that I've
23:38
seen, that's interesting, I
23:38
think that would be useful to
23:40
them. As a practice, I think the
23:40
biggest part for me is is it
23:45
valuable? Like what I'm putting
23:45
out there is is is this
23:47
valuable? Is this actually what
23:47
they want to hear from me? Do
23:51
they just want to see me posting
23:51
another architecture building?
23:54
Probably not. Because, I mean,
23:54
they're already following that
23:56
the reason that they follow me
23:56
is because they want advice, and
23:59
they want direction on
23:59
marketing, right? So whether
24:03
that's sharing my own stuff, or
24:03
sharing other people things,
24:06
like I love to share what other
24:06
professionals in the marketing
24:09
industry are doing, because I
24:09
think that's useful, but it
24:14
doesn't have to be all about me
24:14
selling what I'm doing. I know
24:18
when I talk to other people, I'm
24:18
kind of interested in what's
24:20
happening more broadly for them
24:20
in their industry too.
24:25  Ayo Abbas
Brilliant, brilliant,
24:25
brilliant. And now we're gonna
24:27
move on to LinkedIn. Nikita,
24:27
what's your approach to
24:31
LinkedIn? Okay.
24:44  Nikita Morell
I mean, my thing
24:44
is, is my approach in all
24:47
honesty is not very strategic. I
24:47
just kind of have like a running
24:52
list of ideas. And when they
24:52
kind of spring to my head, you
24:55
know, I just write them down and
24:55
then yeah, it is quite like
24:59
unedited My LinkedIn. So if I
24:59
feel something, and that
25:02
something I'm quite passionate
25:02
about, I will just write it. And
25:06
I think maybe my voice on
25:06
LinkedIn is quite. I don't know,
25:10
I guess it's quite
25:10
straightforward and direct. And
25:13
sometimes it can be perceived. I
25:13
don't know, like that. Look,
25:17
let's be honest, like I've had
25:17
both Dave and Amy, you've
25:19
probably heard this, but like,
25:19
I've had a lot of like, not
25:21
trolls, but like haters, I would
25:21
say that have really, you know,
25:25
sent me like nasty DMs, which is
25:25
fine. I think the thing is,
25:29
trying to build a conversation,
25:29
I think, around certain issues
25:34
that maybe architects will be
25:34
uncomfortable with, you know,
25:38
for example, my last post, which
25:38
got to be traction was I, I
25:41
started to feel in the, I;m the
25:41
process of making a course a 12
25:45
week course to help architects
25:45
get their website done. And I've
25:49
been wondering whether, you
25:49
know, like a cohort of
25:53
architects would be open to
25:53
swapping ideas, because I am
25:55
part of the copywriting
25:55
community and we are always, you
25:58
know, giving each other this is
25:58
how I present Yeah, sharings
26:01
part of it, because we are all
26:01
in it together to build and, you
26:04
know, we can all raise our rates
26:04
and value is copyrighted if we
26:07
do it. And I haven't found my
26:07
experience of the architecture
26:10
industry to be the same. So I
26:10
did post on LinkedIn kind of
26:13
saying, Why don't architects
26:13
like to share?
26:16  Ayo Abbas
And that was your
26:16
headline wasnt it?
26:20  Nikita Morell
And yeah, I mean,
26:20
and that's it, like, I want to
26:22
hear what other people have to
26:22
say, because, look, at the end
26:25
of the day, I am not an
26:25
architect, I just don't have
26:27
what it takes. And but I want to
26:27
learn about my audience, which
26:32
are architects. So the more it's
26:32
almost like, I guess, a market
26:36
research tool for me and like to
26:36
understand, like, you know, what
26:40
I'm putting out there is a value
26:40
or, you know, where am I getting
26:42
it wrong? So, yeah, so
26:44  Ayo Abbas
So vanity metrics on
26:44
that post? What were you looking
26:46
at on that? What metrics do you
26:46
get for it? on that post?
26:53  Nikita Morell
Oh, sorry. I
26:53
thought you said vanity project.
26:57  Ayo Abbas
I just use the word.
26:57
It's not your company Dave
27:01  Dave Sharp
Stop infringing on
27:01
my trademark there!!
27:08  Nikita Morell
I can't remember.
27:08
I think it was around like 14
27:11
15,000 views. And then. Yeah,
27:11
like, again, I'm not very into
27:17
the metrics, I don't know. But I
27:17
mean, in terms of comments, I
27:19
think that that hit a high
27:19
number. I also what was it?
27:24
Yeah, once I wrote a post that
27:24
got a lot of backlash was kind
27:28
of like your work. Don't doesn't
27:28
speak for itself. You know, and
27:31
a lot of people were like, yeah
27:31
it does, like, you know, and so
27:34
like, you know, my take was it?
27:34
No, it's really about using
27:38
words. And yeah, it's
27:38
interesting, like to see what
27:43
architects think.
27:44  Ayo Abbas
But it's interesting,
27:44
because your, I guess, your
27:47
messages and actually, it's,
27:47
it's the truth.
27:56
Well, that's true. But it's
27:56
quite hard for people to hear,
27:58
because people don't always want
27:58
to hear the truth.
28:03  Nikita Morell
Yeah, and as you
28:03
know, as you guys know, like,
28:05
the architecture industry, I
28:05
think, was up until the 1970s,
28:08
that marketing was, like taboo,
28:08
like you were, it was illegal,
28:11
like, you were not allowed to,
28:11
you know, market you had to have
28:15
your shingle and you know, hung
28:15
and people that's how they
28:18
stumbled upon your work. And
28:18
that's how they came across you.
28:20
But yeah, and I think that's
28:20
more so in America than
28:24
Australia, I would say, but it
28:24
is kind of I always say that
28:27
like a bad hangover, you know,
28:27
just like me lingering. This
28:30
like idea. It's just we need to
28:30
kind of, like, you know, move
28:33
with the times and kind of get
28:33
over it and say, Well, I had
28:36
that. I mean, the reality is, is
28:36
you are even though you're
28:39
passionate about architecture,
28:39
and it is your, you know, your
28:42
love of your life, like at the
28:42
end of the day, it is a business
28:44
that you guys are running. So if
28:44
you want clients to make you
28:47
money to then you can keep
28:47
practising architects like that
28:49
is a reality. So marketing isn't
28:49
dirty.
28:52  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, no, that is
28:52
such an interesting debate.
28:55
Yeah, marketing is not a dirty
28:55
word. But in terms of should all
29:00
architects be on LinkedIn? I'm
29:00
gonna ask that question to you,
29:03
Dave.
29:06  Dave Sharp
Yeah, I think what's
29:06
so interesting about Nikita's
29:08
LinkedIn strategy is one of the
29:08
one of the common issues one of
29:12
the most frustrating things
29:12
about LinkedIn is that you post
29:15
something and it's just like
29:15
crickets, the the lack of the
29:19
engagement level is often so
29:19
low, you might have the same
29:22
sort of regular people that
29:22
support your posts. Like you're
29:25
kind of superfans, and they will
29:25
be jumping in to go, you know,
29:28
good job well done. But it's
29:28
actually really hard to get
29:31
people to come to respond on the
29:31
platform. And I think that's
29:35
because they don't actually,
29:35
they're not actually checking it
29:37
that often. And then various
29:37
kind of other reasons, but like,
29:41
so. And if your post doesn't
29:41
start getting quite like
29:43
engagement early on, it'll
29:43
usually drop off quite quickly.
29:46
So I think what's great about
29:46
what Nikita has done is found a
29:51
way to get some people to kind
29:51
of take the bait a little bit
29:53
and then and start a discussion.
29:53
And once a discussion kicks off
29:59
a post can just say Go to the
29:59
moon at that point on LinkedIn.
30:01
Yeah, so I think for for
30:01
architects being on there, it's,
30:06
it's a really good place to be
30:06
if you're as somebody who is
30:10
very much like an encourager of
30:10
other people, and is wanting to
30:14
be on there every day to just
30:14
make positive, good
30:16
contributions to other people in
30:16
your industry, even other,
30:19
especially other disciplines, I
30:19
would be not so much focusing on
30:22
architects, if you're an
30:22
architect, I'd be focusing on
30:25
builders that you work with
30:25
suppliers, like people like
30:29
that, that you've got these
30:29
important relationships with,
30:32
and you want to kind of
30:32
encourage and be there to sort
30:34
of support their businesses. And
30:34
there's this sort of mutual, you
30:37
know, relationship between you
30:37
there's this camaraderie and
30:41
there's this really like
30:41
rewarding relationship that can
30:43
develop with other people. Like
30:43
for me, the people that I engage
30:46
with on LinkedIn, when I do go
30:46
on LinkedIn, the people I'm
30:49
looking to engage with are not
30:49
architects, they're actually you
30:52
guys and other marketing people.
30:52
And I know that's a little bit
30:54
insular. But like, for me,
30:54
that's the value of LinkedIn is
30:58
like, it's not necessarily about
30:58
trying to directly engage your
31:01
customers, it's but it's about
31:01
going, who are the who are the
31:04
relationships, the professional
31:04
relationships that you actually
31:06
need to survive in your, in your
31:06
industry. And so I think it's
31:10
like a little bit about that. So
31:10
an architect that's like down
31:13
with that. And is a very sort of
31:13
generous and community oriented
31:16
person, I think it's a good
31:16
place to be there. But if you're
31:19
going to be the person who does
31:19
like your own posts, like
31:21
Nikita, you have to be prepared
31:21
to actually have an opinion and
31:25
stand up for yourself and defend
31:25
what you think and be open to
31:29
being criticised and be
31:29
comfortable with, maybe, you
31:34
know, being wrong in some
31:34
people's eyes, or having them,
31:37
you know, gossip about you
31:37
behind your back at the next,
31:39
you know, Institute soiree.
31:39
Like, there's always that risk.
31:50
I'm tapping into the deep seated
31:50
nightmares of architects, which
31:52
is that they will be at the
31:52
next, you know, awards jury, and
31:55
it's like, oh, look, there's
31:55
such and such who have that to
31:57
say on LinkedIn, they think
31:57
they're really special, you
31:59
know, there's always this fear
31:59
of criticism, and judgement from
32:03
your peers in the industry, but
32:03
you just have to be prepared to
32:06
sort of tough it out and and do
32:06
that, because you need to have
32:09
an opinion that actually is not
32:09
just trying to please everybody
32:13
on LinkedIn, I think. And that's
32:13
why you need to look at Nikita,
32:15
and not be afraid to be like,
32:15
I'm going to occasionally have
32:18
something to say, because if
32:18
you're not going to do that on
32:20
LinkedIn, you're not going to
32:20
really get great results, I
32:22
don't think, but it doesn't mean
32:22
that you have to be like, here's
32:26
the problem with you know,
32:26
here's the problem with people
32:28
that are like designing houses,
32:28
here's my beef with that would
32:31
be the Nikita Strategy
32:32
like, this is what I hate about.
32:40
Like, that's like, that's
32:40
definitely that's like
32:43
definitely a strategy. But I
32:43
think I think also, you know,
32:47
being you know, can I just have
32:47
one final thing? I'm kind of
32:50
carrying all this answer a
32:50
little bit go. Also, it is a
32:52
business platform. And I find it
32:52
at least in my clients, people,
32:56
clients that post content that
32:56
is kind of reflecting on some of
32:59
their learnings as business
32:59
owners. Yeah, about company
33:03
culture, about hiring people
33:03
about communicating about
33:06
building relationships, about
33:06
delivering quality work, like
33:09
had good times, bad times,
33:09
things they've learned things
33:12
they've picked up, you know, the
33:12
little things, those are the
33:15
things that tend to really catch
33:15
on and go viral as post. It's
33:18
like,
33:19  Ayo Abbas
observation of your
33:19
day-to-day, right. I think we
33:21
see something
33:22  Dave Sharp
today, that not
33:22
about architecture, you're an
33:26
architect, you're obviously
33:26
reminding people that you exist
33:29
and what you do and building up
33:29
your audience on there. But you
33:31
could just be talking about what
33:31
it's like owning a small
33:33
business, it's challenging to
33:33
own a small business, but that's
33:36
what you're going to have in
33:36
common with everyone else on
33:38
LinkedIn. They also a lot of the
33:38
people, they're also going to be
33:41
having challenges running their
33:41
own small businesses. That's
33:44
what they're going to be able to
33:44
relate to. So that type of
33:46
content if you're interested in
33:46
business, and you see yourself
33:49
as a business person, LinkedIn
33:49
could also be a really good
33:53
place for you.
33:59  Ayo Abbas
Thanks for listening
33:59
to part two of my interview with
34:01
Amy, Dave and Nikita. If you
34:01
like the show, please do share
34:04
it with people that you know who
34:04
may find it of interest as it
34:07
really does help us spread the
34:07
word. Make sure you look out for
34:10
part three next time.