Marketing In Times of Recovery

Marketing In Times Of Crisis has changed its name to Marketing In Times of Recovery. It's still a bi-weekly interview-led podcast series featuring inspirational built environment business leaders but more with a look to the future. We’ve had to weather crisis’ before and podcast listeners hear lively conversations, jam-packed with hints, tips and takeaways that you can apply to your business now. Hosted by Ayo Abbas, Founder / Consultant, Abbas Marketing. Subscribe now, rate, review and help us to spread the word.

https://www.abbasmarketing.com/mitc-podcast

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episode 15: Ep 15: Phones, People and Pancakes!!! with Graham Handley and Susie Lober [transcript]


Welcome to the latest episode of Marketing In Times of Crisis hosted by me, Ayo Abbas, a marketing consultant who specialises in all things built environment.  

Today's guests are someone I've known for years from when she worked at Foster and Partners and I was at Arup, fellow Marketing Consultant Susie Lober and one of her clients' Graham Handley who runs his own practice in Cambridge.  
It's an interesting fun chat that I really enjoyed and I hope you do too. 

Key takeaways

  • Marketing is all about relationships and making human connections. Make sure you keep in touch and don't be afraid to pick up the phone. 
  • Word of Mouth and your digital presence are important, once you start, make sure you keep everything current.
  • Be yourself and do marketing that represents what's important to you (pancakes, books etc :).  It'll resonate with your clients too.

Rate and review us
Please don’t forget to rate and review us if you’re listening on Apple podcasts as it’s lovely to hear what you think plus it helps us to spread the word. 

Resources
Graham Handley Architects
Abbas Marketing website
Lober Marketing

Recorded on Friday 15 January 2021. 


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 2021-02-12  30m
 
 
00:04  Ayo Abbas
Hello, and welcome to
00:04
the latest episode of Marketing
00:07
In Times of Crisis. I'm your
00:07
host Ayo Abbas, a freelance
00:10
marketing consultant who
00:10
specialises in all things built
00:13
environment. And today it's
00:13
Friday, January 14th 2021. And
00:18
we're now in lockdown part
00:18
three. My guests are Graham
00:22
Handley, who set up a small
00:22
practice in Cambridge, thirty
00:25
two years ago and Susie Lober, a
00:25
marketing consultant who I've
00:28
known for about 10 years who
00:28
works with Graham. Some of the
00:32
feedback I've had about the
00:32
podcasts is that we mainly look
00:34
at larger firms. So this time
00:34
around, I'm trying to get more
00:37
voices from smaller firms, so we
00:37
can see how they're tackling
00:40
their marketing in such an
00:40
uncertain time. If you like the
00:44
show, please do subscribe
00:44
wherever you listen to your
00:46
podcasts. And if you really want
00:46
some brownie points, make sure
00:49
you leave us a review too.
00:49
Anyway, let's move on with the
00:52
episode. Enjoy.
00:59
Hi, Graham. Hi, Susie. Thanks so
00:59
much for coming on the sho
01:01
w. So, can you give me a brief
01:01
intro to who you are and your
01:05
roles and how you work together?
01:07  Graham Handley
Okay, so I'm
01:07
Graham Handley, architect, I set
01:11
up practice 32 years ago, I used
01:11
to work for a small practice in
01:16
Cambridge. And then that grew,
01:16
and I didn't really want to be
01:19
part of that organisation. So I
01:19
said, you know, initially, it
01:24
was just me, and then it was me
01:24
and a part time person. Then it
01:28
was me and somebody else. We're
01:28
not large, but we're now seven
01:32
people. And actually, you know,
01:32
it work is actually going very
01:38
well. We're mainly based, we
01:38
mainly do residential work.
01:44
There's a very wide range of
01:44
residential, you know, from high
01:47
quality extensions, through to
01:47
listed buildings. Nice quality
01:52
stuff for some developers.
01:52
Little bit of commercial work.
01:57
And yeah, all seems okay,
01:57
actually.
02:02  Ayo Abbas
Okay, so Susie, can
02:02
you tell me about your role and
02:04
how you work with Graham in
02:04
terms of his marketing for his
02:07
practice and what you do?
02:09  Susie Lober
Sure. I am a
02:09
freelance marketing consultant,
02:12
specialising in working with
02:12
small architecture practices and
02:16
sole practitioners. I started
02:16
working with Graham in about
02:21
2017, I think it was. And
02:21
initially, we had a chat because
02:25
they wanted to produce a
02:25
practice video. So that was our
02:30
first project together. And then
02:30
we've been working together ever
02:33
since. And I'm really an
02:33
outsourced marketing department
02:37
for Graham. So whatever,
02:37
whatever he needs, in terms of
02:41
marketing, that comes down to
02:41
me.
02:44  Ayo Abbas
Brilliant, is that
02:44
the video that's still on your
02:46
site now?
02:49  Graham Handley
It is, like,
02:52  Ayo Abbas
I do love it, when
02:52
you look at the materials, it's
02:53
brilliant.
02:55  Graham Handley
I mean, it's got
02:55
a little bit of a human touch,
02:57
which is not too formal, which I
02:57
quite like,
03:01  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, and I think I
03:01
think that's so important. You
03:03
kind of get a feeling of who you
03:03
are as a practice. And you know,
03:07
each of you as individuals is
03:07
so, so important. And I guess at
03:10
the moment, we are now in
03:10
lockdown three. So I mean, what
03:13
kind of approach have you taken
03:13
to marketing during the various
03:17
lockdowns? Do you want to kick
03:17
us off Susie?
03:22  Susie Lober
I think maybe
03:22
Graham, if you kick it off,
03:25
really in terms of lockdown,
03:25
lockdown one and what our
03:29
approach was, during that,
03:31  Graham Handley
I suppose one of
03:31
the more important things, I
03:35
think, is to get in contact with
03:35
clients, past clients. And
03:39
actually, you know, that's
03:39
mainly been ringing people up. I
03:44
think, you know, people, people
03:44
actually quite like being the
03:50
human contact. And I think the
03:50
more you can, yeah, the closer
03:55
you can get through
03:55
communication, the better. And,
03:58
you know, things like Zoom, I
03:58
quite like prospective clients.
04:01
Actually, I try and encourage
04:01
them to go on Zoom, because the
04:03
more you're building that
04:03
relationship in some way. And
04:08
okay, you know, maybe we'll talk
04:08
a little bit later about how our
04:12
marketing has been before the
04:12
lockdown. But that's I think
04:15
that that's my main main thing
04:15
at this moment.
04:19  Ayo Abbas
And did that change
04:19
what you how you had to approach
04:21
being Susie in terms of
04:21
representing in the practice?
04:24  Susie Lober
No, not massively.
04:24
I think our key thing was just
04:27
to keep communicating. So, to
04:27
keep to keep doing social posts,
04:32
to keep content out there. And
04:32
we did try and, you know, show
04:37
the personality and show how the
04:37
practice was coping with
04:43
circumstances as well. And I
04:43
think sort of getting that human
04:46
touch across helped.
04:50  Ayo Abbas
And I saw on your
04:50
website that you have, you are
04:53
doing remote consultations, how
04:53
did that go? And did you do
04:56
anything else to promote those
04:56
or was that just more you had to
04:59
work in that way?
05:00  Graham Handley
No, I think it
05:00
was an offer to potential
05:04
clients if they wanted to talk
05:04
to us about a potential job, and
05:08
then you know, maybe do a walk
05:08
around the home with their
05:12
phone, so we can actually see a
05:12
little bit. That's enabled us to
05:17
do some consultation with them.
05:17
I mean, it is definitely not as
05:23
good as seeing the site and an
05:23
understanding, you know, what's
05:28
around is in detail, but it does
05:28
give you it does give you a
05:32
little bit of a start. And I
05:32
think you're on occasions that
05:35
that's been useful.
05:37  Ayo Abbas
Okay, so talking
05:37
about marketing and how you
05:40
approached it before lockdown.
05:40
What was the kind of overall
05:42
approach you generally used to
05:42
take then Graham? Well,
05:45  Graham Handley
I mean, it's
05:45
very much a mix of speaking to
05:50
clients, other consultants,
05:50
website, social posts, doing a
05:56
book. Now has to be said, you
05:56
know, I'm a bit of a dinosaur,
06:00
and Susie will absolutely bear
06:00
this out. I don't really don't
06:03
understand all this social post
06:03
thing. But yeah, Susie is great.
06:09
And that actually works really
06:09
well. We've got I think we've
06:13
got quite a good website and
06:13
keeping that. Keeping it trying
06:17
to keep it up to date. That That
06:17
definitely does bring work in. I
06:23
would guess we were looking at
06:23
the figures actually, a few
06:26
weeks ago. Yeah, something like
06:26
60-70% of our work comes from
06:33
recommendations, past clients.
06:33
But yeah, some of it comes from
06:38
the website. Now, of course, you
06:38
never know. Does it? Has it come
06:41
directly from a website? Or has
06:41
it come from somebody seeing one
06:44
of our social posts and then I
06:44
think is that's a name I
06:47
remember. Interesting enough, I
06:47
was just trying to, before this,
06:52
remind myself of who said some
06:52
of these sayings, it was John
06:57
Wanamaker, but someone you'll
06:57
probably know, probably. And
07:02
what he said is, half of money I
07:02
spend on advertising is wasted.
07:06
The trouble is, I don't know
07:06
which half.
07:08  Ayo Abbas
That so true, though,
07:08
isn't it? Because it is that
07:11
whole thing that you can't
07:11
always say it's this one, one
07:13
touchpoint. Because we always
07:13
talk about multiple touchpoints
07:16
when it comes to marketing, and
07:16
that, you know, that person may
07:19
have seen something here, and
07:19
then they remember your name.
07:21
And then when it suddenly
07:21
something comes up, they
07:23
suddenly, you know, get in
07:23
contact and often your website
07:26
can even just be that they go in
07:26
there just to reinforce, you can
07:29
do the job for me, right? and
07:29
stuff like that. So it's
07:32
important in that way as
07:32
well.Yeah, what but yeah, yeah,
07:35  Graham Handley
One of the
07:35
things I'm really keen on
07:37
website, if I'm going to be
07:37
dealing with somebody else,
07:39
another company that I've never
07:39
seen, I've never dealt with,
07:42
I've never spoken to them, I'm
07:42
really keen to go on their
07:45
website, and I, you know, I'd
07:45
like to see a photograph of them
07:48
and just read a few words about
07:48
them. It just brings, it just
07:51
brings them alive. And I want
07:51
them to be able to do that with
07:54
us. And I suppose that's one of
07:54
the reasons we've got the video.
07:56
It just brings it brings it all
07:56
alive. Okay, so I'm saying, you
08:00
know, we got your website, and I
08:00
speak to people, but you know,
08:03
although I don't do it, and I'm
08:03
no good at the social stuff. I
08:06
recognise that actually, today.
08:06
That's really important. And
08:10
that's, you know, that's what
08:10
Suzy is good at.
08:14  Susie Lober
Thank you.
08:17
I think something that we did,
08:17
quite early in our relationship
08:22
is we did some market research
08:22
with a set of clients, which was
08:28
really valuable. And I had
08:28
interviews with a number of
08:32
different clients. And that has
08:32
guided our marketing strategy
08:35
ever since. It's really helped
08:35
us to sort of mark out what the
08:40
key differences are with the
08:40
practice, what perceptions, we
08:44
need to challenge, what are the
08:44
client pain points that we need
08:48
to address? So that that bit of
08:48
research that we did back in
08:52
probably 2018, has driven a lot
08:52
of the marketing decisions since
08:57
then. And
08:58  Ayo Abbas
I think, what were
08:58
some of those decisions, or what
09:01
was some of the things that they
09:01
were saying?
09:04  Susie Lober
I think some of it
09:04
reiterated the points of
09:06
difference that that we thought
09:06
already existed. But also some
09:12
of that work since has been
09:12
around really accentuating the
09:16
fact that the practice does both
09:16
traditional design and
09:20
contemporary design as well and
09:20
is also capable of working at
09:24
scale. So, capable of working on
09:24
larger residential developments.
09:28
So, we've shifted some of the
09:28
messages around those those
09:32
points.
09:33
It's interesting what Graham
09:33
said about word of mouth,
09:35
because the majority of
09:35
architects will tell you that
09:38
their their business comes from
09:38
word of mouth. But of course,
09:41
nowadays, if somebody recommend
09:41
something to you, the very first
09:45
thing that you do is then look
09:45
them up online. So that's why
09:50
your website, your social media
09:50
presence has got to be as good
09:53
as it can be, even if you get
09:53
great referrals, because
09:57
ultimately, they're going to go
09:57
online and check you out.
10:01  Ayo Abbas
And I think that's
10:01
the thing is easily to be missed
10:03
or overlooked. Or you say, Oh,
10:03
I'm wasting all this time on
10:06
social media. But actually, also
10:06
social media is great for kind
10:09
of directing traffic to your
10:09
website as well, which is, which
10:11
is the other thing I always find
10:11
is like, you kind of look at the
10:14
stats of that. And you know, I
10:14
actually does drive a lot of
10:16
traffic. And it's largely free
10:16
as well. So I think it's one of
10:19
those things. What do you I
10:19
mean, what approach do you take
10:23
in terms of your kind of social
10:23
and digital channels then? That
10:26
one is a question for Susie.
10:30  Susie Lober
We've, we've
10:30
focused heavily on LinkedIn, we
10:35
fairly early on looked at where
10:35
our audience was, we chose one
10:38
channel. And we've really sort
10:38
of gone quite deep onto
10:41
LinkedIn, but trying to and very
10:41
successful actually building an
10:45
audience on that platform, but
10:45
in a very targeted way. So we've
10:50
been using it alongside tools
10:50
like Sales Navigator, and other
10:56
LinkedIn plugins to make sure
10:56
that the audience we're building
10:59
there is really connecting with
10:59
the right people. We've also
11:03
done more videos. Recently,
11:03
Graham's done some great little,
11:07
little short videos, we've done
11:07
some nice little overviews of
11:12
sites and plans to the sites
11:14  Ayo Abbas
I've seen some of
11:14
those. Yeah.
11:17  Graham Handley
Under mild
11:17
duress from Susie.
11:22  Ayo Abbas
Do you enjoy them
11:22
Graham?
11:24  Graham Handley
I do enjoy it in
11:24
a curious way.
11:31  Susie Lober
He loves it really
11:34  Ayo Abbas
An ndorsement for
11:34
you, you get it done though
11:41
Um, and in terms of kind of
11:41
social and digital, I mean, are
11:44
there any tips you would give to
11:44
practices who are starting out
11:46
today?
11:48  Susie Lober
I would say, first
11:48
of all, just commit to one
11:51
channel. So don't try and be
11:51
everything to everybody just
11:55
commit to one platform, and
11:55
really work on getting that
11:59
right to something you're
11:59
comfortable with. And work on
12:02
that. I'd also say it's really
12:02
important to have good imagery,
12:07
so invest in professional
12:07
photography, have good, sharp
12:11
images, and share a nice variety
12:11
of images as well. So from
12:16
sketches to plans to completed
12:16
buildings to people actually, as
12:20
well, you know, people doing the
12:20
work, and to always have your
12:24
target client in mind with
12:24
whatever it is that you're
12:27
publishing.
12:29  Ayo Abbas
And in terms of your
12:29
target client. I mean, are you
12:31
mainly focused on the kind of
12:31
Cambridge area? And does that
12:34
kind of impact you in a
12:34
different way in terms of how
12:37
you market yourself?
12:39  Graham Handley
I mean, most of
12:39
our work is in I don't know, 40
12:43
miles of Cambridge? Yeah.
12:43
Cambridge is economically very
12:47
buoyant. And I think there's
12:47
quite a lot of clients out there
12:50
who have got the wherewithal to
12:50
do some quite nice buildings and
12:54
conditions and to devote, you
12:54
know, the funds that are
12:58
required for that. And so we
12:58
are, we are aiming at really,
13:05
those clients more than more
13:05
than some of the others.
13:09  Ayo Abbas
Which makes sense if
13:09
that's what that target markets
13:11
there. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry,
13:11
Susie.
13:14  Susie Lober
Partly, it's about
13:14
ensuring that we are connecting
13:17
with that community locally. So,
13:17
there are lots of different sort
13:23
of very active construction
13:23
communities in the region. So,
13:28
some of our marketing is
13:28
obviously making sure that we're
13:30
networking and being seen to be
13:30
involved in those organisations.
13:36
And then, of course, that does
13:36
help you digitally if you've got
13:40
a quite a, a reasonably narrow
13:40
geographic field that can help
13:45
you with tools such as LinkedIn
13:45
and Sales Navigator, because
13:48
you're, you're just looking at
13:48
it by sort of, you know, county
13:52
by county basis, which can be
13:52
helpful.
13:55  Ayo Abbas
And those online
13:55
those networking groups,
13:57
luckily, have a lot of them gone
13:57
online, have you still been able
14:00
to be as active on those or how
14:00
did they change during lockdown?
14:04  Susie Lober
I think most stuff
14:04
has gone online. Yeah. Some very
14:09
successfully, and are now
14:09
actually attracting even even
14:13
wider audiences than before.
14:13
Because it is something that you
14:16
can just do in your lunch hour
14:16
instead of having to, you know,
14:21
take time off time out of the
14:21
office and travel.
14:24  Ayo Abbas
Okay.
14:26  Graham Handley
One of the
14:26
things you mentioned about the
14:29
social media, Susie, certainly
14:29
in the past, is your clients
14:34
really like some of the personal
14:34
stuff, don't they? Okay, yeah,
14:37
what we put on the mix of
14:37
projects, which we've got going
14:41
on, but also what individual
14:41
members of the practice are
14:45
doing. And with me sometimes you
14:45
put some of my sketches on and
14:50
people like Gavin's growing one
14:50
of those snowdrops all sorts of
14:55
interesting and clients. I think
14:55
this is all about being
14:58
personable and understanding
14:58
that the person behind the
15:04
screen or whatever, one of my
15:04
little things I think is, if
15:08
you're going to do some of this
15:08
social post, or you have a
15:12
website with blogs on it or
15:12
whatever. So often, you see, the
15:17
last entry was eight months ago
15:17
or 18 months ago, I think if you
15:21
start, you really got to keep
15:21
going. Otherwise, it's just,
15:24
it's just self defeating. And
15:24
that's, that's one of the
15:29
reasons we have Susie, we just
15:29
don't have the time to do that.
15:34
And I think if we tried to do it
15:34
ourselves, we'd have some
15:39
tremendous enthusiasm to start
15:39
with. And after a few weeks,
15:42
project demands will be pushing
15:42
that to one side, and actually
15:47
having an outside consultant
15:47
Susie doing, it just works. And,
15:52
you know, that's her expertise,
15:52
and we have our expertise. And
15:56
actually, that really works
15:56
well.
15:58  Ayo Abbas
Fantastic. That's
15:58
what that's, that's really,
16:01
really useful. Um, so, I mean,
16:01
are there any kind of particular
16:07
challenges you face when it
16:07
comes to the marketing side of
16:09
your business? Is it is it
16:09
mainly a time based thing
16:11
Graham? Or
16:12  Graham Handley
It's time It's
16:12
time? I mean, it really is. I
16:14
mean, I know, I suppose we're
16:14
lucky at moment you the sort of
16:18
enquiries, book as it were, is,
16:18
is reasonably good. But this is
16:28
out of order, actually. But I
16:28
mean, some of the things we we
16:32
we like to do, okay, actually,
16:32
well, one of the things we like
16:34
to do is if we go and see a
16:34
potential client is to give them
16:38
a book, because we get the book
16:38
of, you know, a whole range of
16:42
commissions, and you leave it
16:42
with a potential client. First
16:46
of all, you're leaving something
16:46
behind, that you've given them.
16:50
And it's a nice quality p
16:50
oduction, it shows them some p
16:54
ojects that are have some s
16:54
milarity with what they're t
16:57
inking of doing. Even if they d
16:57
n't appoint you. I don't think t
17:01
ey're gonna throw it away. And o
17:01
e or two people in practice, s
17:04
y, well go less expensive, do t
17:04
give him one of his books. W
17:08
ll, actually, once once we put t
17:08
e time in to produce the b
17:10
oks, okay. But every time it w
17:10
s quite, quite significant, b
17:13
t printing each book is, I d
17:13
n't know, 30 quid, but time we t
17:17
ke to go and see a potential c
17:17
ient write a fee proposal is, i
17:21
10 times that is 20 times y
17:21
ur madness, not not to hand o
17:25
t a book as well. And what I r
17:25
ally want is books handed out e
17:28
ery time you go and see a p
17:28
tential client. And and people m
17:32
y do quite like it to sort of t
17:32
ing that they leave on their c
17:35
ffee table, as it were,
17:39  Ayo Abbas
which is lovely. But
17:39
yeah, it's a lot of work to do a
17:41
book. But yeah, they can be
17:43  Graham Handley
done at once
17:43
you've done it, you should use
17:44
it.
17:45  Ayo Abbas
Absolutely. Once
17:45
you've got it.
17:47  Graham Handley
Yeah. I mean,
17:47
when we Susie, when are we going
17:49
to talk about pancakes?
17:55  Ayo Abbas
Okay, you need to
17:55
tell me what that is.
17:57  Susie Lober
well we're gonna
17:57
talk about pancakes when we talk
17:59
about
18:00  Ayo Abbas
what are we doing
18:00
next?
18:02  Susie Lober
What we're doing
18:02
next is pancakes.
18:09  Graham Handley
About twenty
18:09
years ago, I thought it'd be fun
18:12
to cook pancakes in the office.
18:12
So you know, I brought a stove
18:15
in and went and got over flour
18:15
and milk and all that sort of
18:20
thing. And yeah, we got
18:20
pancakes. And that was great
18:22
fun. So the following year, we
18:22
did it again. Then I thought,
18:26
Well, why don't we invite some
18:26
clients. So we got some aprons
18:30
made with our logo on invited
18:30
some clients. They came along.
18:34
And and they went away when away
18:34
with an apron and actually, they
18:37
really enjoyed it. Now the
18:37
challenge is going to be this
18:41
year. So what we're going to do
18:41
is I'm going to get a pile of
18:44
aprons printed, and then I'm
18:44
going to post it to some of
18:48
these clients and say right
18:48
here, we're going to do we're
18:51
going to all going to be cooking
18:51
pancakes online.
18:54  Ayo Abbas
I thinks that an
18:54
absolutely brilliant idea. It's
18:58
one of those things that people
18:58
do those gift boxes don't lie,
19:00
and they send them to people and
19:00
then they start doing you know,
19:02
it's really lovely. Yeah.
19:08  Susie Lober
It's great fun, and
19:08
the clients are normally it's
19:13
not a massive number. But
19:13
generally it's sort of kind of
19:16
an open invitation over an
19:16
extended sort of lunch break.
19:20
So, we tend to get a kind of
19:20
steady flow of people in but um,
19:25
I have to point out that the
19:25
office is not equipped for
19:27
catering and Graham has quite a
19:27
sort of Heath Robinson approach.
19:31
So when he says you know, he, he
19:31
constructs an oven in the
19:34
office. There's been some quite
19:34
interesting, quite interesting
19:41
construction,
19:45  Graham Handley
Double glazing
19:45
samples and samples, brick of
19:48
insulation and then you get
19:48
fan heaters. And when you put
19:51
plates in so our plates are warm
19:51
and come out, or you can put
19:55
mince pies in and if you leave
19:55
them in long enough and mince
19:58
pies are nice. A couple of years
19:58
ago, we had a couple of
20:02
developers in, they were
20:02
brothers, I knew one of it was
20:05
one of their birthdays were
20:05
coming in. So we actually could
20:08
cook steak for him. And yeah,
20:08
that was quite fun.
20:12  Ayo Abbas
Wow. But then again,
20:12
that's a human touch again, it's
20:17
that whole, you'll make it
20:17
personal. This is what we enjoy,
20:19
come and have some fun as well,
20:19
which I think is, is really,
20:22
really important. And I guess in
20:22
the rest of 2021, what if you
20:26
got any kind of major kind of
20:26
plan to what you're doing this
20:28
year? Or what you can do this
20:28
year?
20:31  Susie Lober
That's it pancakes.
20:40  Ayo Abbas
You can run your
20:40
business on pancakes, and then
20:41
that's really good.
20:45  Susie Lober
Yeah, it's very
20:45
hard as well, at the moment to
20:47
look much further ahead into,
20:47
certainly in terms of kind of
20:51
doing any, we won't be doing any
20:51
big events, or anything of that,
20:57
of that kind. So the practice
20:57
had a 30th 30th birthday party A
21:02
few years ago, which was very
21:02
nice, but we haven't got any big
21:05
events planned to this year.
21:08  Graham Handley
That'll be the
21:08
might be a couple of newsletters
21:11
that that we do throughout the
21:11
year. That seems to go down.
21:14
Yeah, that seems to go down.
21:14
Okay. We've been learning about
21:17
MailChimp. And that seems, yeah.
21:17
What's nice is that you can see
21:22
who who opens it.
21:24  Ayo Abbas
Yeah, absolutely. I
21:24
think that's the thing about
21:26
digital marketing is, you know,
21:26
that person's read it that one
21:29
hasn't, that they're interested
21:29
in these areas.
21:32  Susie Lober
So initially, I'm
21:32
sure Graham won't mind me saying
21:35
initially, Graham was quite
21:35
reluctant to go digital on the
21:38
newsletter because they very
21:38
much liked having a having a,
21:42
you know, well designed hardcopy
21:42
newsletter that would land on
21:46
somebody's desk. And I
21:46
absolutely appreciate that
21:48
there's, there's value in that.
21:48
But obviously, in lockdown, we
21:51
realised people just weren't in
21:51
their offices. So would there be
21:54
any point in sending a
21:54
newsletter to somebody's office?
21:57
And gradually, I persuaded them
21:57
that actually, there is still
22:01
value to sending it out and
22:01
sending it out digitally. And
22:04
the benefits of doing that in
22:04
terms of tracking? Who's opened
22:08
it and how well it's received.
22:08
And, and
22:11  Graham Handley
and if we send
22:11
it out, on MailChimp, the people
22:16
who don't open it, I can ring
22:16
them up and be right.
22:17  Ayo Abbas
I don't think that's
22:17
the point of digital
22:33
I'm watching I'm watching.
22:41  Graham Handley
Talking of
22:41
letters and human contact, I was
22:46
you'll know the name, David
22:46
Ogilvy won't you.
22:49  Ayo Abbas
Yes,
22:49  Graham Handley
yeah, okay. I
22:49
was just, I mean, I've looked at
22:53
some of his stuff, I actually
22:53
want to buy one of his books
22:56
about all the stuff. However,
22:56
there was a little saying I've
22:59
come across or a few words that
22:59
come across recently, he said,
23:04
every four weeks, I'd send out
23:04
send out personalised mailings
23:08
to our new business prospects.
23:08
And I was always amazed to
23:12
discover how many of our clients
23:12
have been attracted to Oglivy
23:15
Mather by those mailings. That
23:15
is how we grew. Yeah, here's
23:21
advertising agency starting in
23:21
New York. And you know, these
23:26
people got an individual letter
23:26
from him. This is all about, you
23:30
know, the people, him, they're
23:30
saying, God, this guy's taken
23:34
the trouble to personally write
23:34
me. And this just has helped
23:38
build that relationship.
23:40  Ayo Abbas
But it shows you
23:40
care, and it also shows what
23:42
it's gonna be like to work with
23:42
you. And I think that's what
23:44
people want, isn't it? Like, I'm
23:44
not just a number, actually,
23:47
you're gonna take your time out
23:47
of your day and get in contact
23:50
with me. I think that it's that
23:50
personal touch. But I think at
23:53
the moment is kind of
23:53
interesting, because you have to
23:56
trigger that you have to do
23:56
something in order to be in
23:59
contact with somebody, it's not
23:59
just going to a party. So I
24:01
think at the moment is kind of
24:01
like how do you still connect
24:04
with people, even though we're
24:04
not doing face-to-face stuff? I
24:07
think that's that's the
24:07
challenge that we've all got to
24:09
kind of face and overcome at the
24:09
moment. Because, you know, it's
24:12
harder, in a way.
24:13  Susie Lober
And I think Graham
24:13
is a great advocate of this, of
24:16
just actually biting the bullet
24:16
and picking up the phone.
24:20
Because there's always 101
24:20
excuses why why not to do it.
24:23
But actually, if you just pick
24:23
up the phone and start talking
24:27
to clients and checking in with
24:27
them, that goes a long way.
24:31  Graham Handley
Yeah, most
24:31
people are very few people. You
24:36
know don't like hearing from
24:36
you. Yeah, people like people
24:40
like hearing from you. And we
24:40
might, you know, I was talking I
24:44
try to think I was talking to a
24:44
client a few days ago, and if
24:50
nothing to do with business, we
24:50
will talk we're probably talking
24:52
about cars or something. I don't
24:52
know. I can do that. As many as
24:58
many things I can't talk about.
24:58
I talk about cars. And yeah.
25:05  Ayo Abbas
I think it's just so
25:05
important specifically now. And
25:09
I guess, I mean, we totally we
25:09
are still technically in
25:12
recession, or are we? I'm not
25:12
sure. I've stopped reading the
25:15
news, I'm not entirely sure. But
25:15
how did how did your practice
25:19
fare in the 2018 2009?
25:19
recession? Graham?
25:23  Graham Handley
We kept in touch
25:23
with clients and consultants.
25:27
Yeah. You know, we'd we're
25:27
ringing them up. I mean, this
25:32
was we had a website, but it
25:32
wasn't it wasn't very good.
25:35
Didn't have all this social
25:35
media stuff. And yeah, I pick up
25:41
the phone and ring them say,
25:41
Yeah, hello, Georgia. We did did
25:45
something for you three years
25:45
ago, just ringing up saying,
25:48
hello, what's going on? Blah,
25:48
blah, blah. And I mean, it's
25:51
very interesting. I went to see
25:51
a developer who we had worked
25:55
with over the years, but
25:55
probably haven't done anything
25:57
with him for five years. His
25:57
name is Martin. I won't say the
26:01
surname, I rang up, Martin, I
26:01
look, can I come and see you and
26:04
have a chat. So I went and saw
26:04
him actually took a book. Four
26:10
days later, he turned us up and
26:10
we got a job that were just
26:13
reminded him that we existed
26:13
because I mean, to be fair, you
26:17
know, people have busy lives and
26:17
you fall off, they're sort of,
26:22
you know, not quite on the tip
26:22
of their tongue.
26:25  Ayo Abbas
And on to the final
26:25
two questions. So I guess during
26:30
I would say, the past year when
26:30
we've been going in and out of
26:32
lockdown in terms of marketing
26:32
that you've seen, has there been
26:35
anything standout for you,
26:35
Graham that you've kind of
26:37
really liked and admired?
26:40  Graham Handley
The truth is, I
26:40
can't remember. Okay. But I was
26:44
I was going through thinking I
26:44
doing a bit of Zooming right.
26:48
googling and I came across, I
26:48
will read this one out. I just
26:54
thought, you know, it's Brewdog
26:54
they, they did a special brew,
26:58
Barnard Castle eye test. And I
26:58
just thought that was quite
27:02
brilliant.
27:03  Ayo Abbas
But they use humour
27:03
and their marketing they do it
27:05
very, very well. No, humour is
27:05
really hard to do marketing.
27:08
Yeah,
27:09  Susie Lober
I think Specsavers
27:09
did something. They were super
27:12
quick on it as well. With a
27:12
should have gone to Specsavers
27:18
advert at the same time with the
27:18
Barnard Castle I thought that
27:22
was really it was very decisive
27:22
you know there must have just
27:24
turned it round really quickly
27:24
and gone Yeah, let's do it. That
27:29
was really funny
27:31  Ayo Abbas
Was that your your
27:31
your standout campaigns Susie or
27:34
did you have one?
27:37  Susie Lober
One thing that I
27:37
really enjoyed in the the first
27:40
lockdown was Foster and Partners
27:40
did a great architecture from
27:44
home series. And they produced
27:44
little project packs for for
27:50
kids to do. Including building
27:50
your own city and little books
27:56
about what is a building and all
27:56
these different resources that
27:59
they produce to inspire the next
27:59
generation of architects. I'm
28:04
probably a bit biassed, because
28:04
at the time, I was struggling to
28:07
home educate to young children
28:07
for the first time. So that
28:10
definitely appealed to me. But I
28:10
thought the whole message around
28:14
inspiring young architects was
28:14
was really nice. And it was all
28:17
really, really well put
28:17
together.
28:20  Ayo Abbas
I think I saw on
28:20
Twitter as well that they also
28:22
did walking tours didn't they
28:22
have their buildings, and they
28:24
will do maps and sending them
28:24
out to people. So you can
28:26
ya know,
28:27
so you can kind of see more of
28:27
their buildings and stuff like
28:30
that. I think it was made that
28:30
may have been over summer
28:31
Actually, I thought that was a
28:31
really nice touch as well,
28:34
because it's kind of like you
28:34
know, his stuff you can see and
28:36
do. I you know, so I think I did
28:36
enjoy that as well. Okay, so on
28:42
to my final final question. So
28:42
what one tip would you give to a
28:45
business leader about how to
28:45
market themselves during this
28:48
current lockdown, non non
28:48
lockdown crisis type of thing,
28:51  Graham Handley
just just you
28:51
just pick up a telephone, talk
28:56
to people. And if you can
28:56
persuade them to do a zoom call
29:02  Ayo Abbas
and as for you Susie
29:02
what would your one tip be?
29:04  Susie Lober
Yeah, it would be
29:04
very similar. Keep
29:06
communicating. So just just
29:06
keep, keep sending messages out
29:11
there and keep letting people
29:11
know that you are, you're active
29:15
and you're there. And it's very
29:15
easy to get distracted by the
29:18
pressures of projects and to
29:18
want to sort of close the doors.
29:23
But now more than ever, it's
29:23
important to keep communicating.
29:27
Brilliant.
29:27  Ayo Abbas
Thank you so much.
29:27
You've been brilliant guests.
29:29
Thank you.
29:30  Susie Lober
Thank you. Thank
29:30
you for having us.
29:37  Ayo Abbas
Thanks for listening
29:37
to the latest episode of
29:39
Marketing In Times of Crisis. If
29:39
you liked what you heard, please
29:42
do leave us a review, as it
29:42
helps us to spread the word and
29:45
for more people to get to hear
29:45
about us. If you want to know
29:48
more about things mentioned in
29:48
the episode, do look at the show
29:51
notes which will give you more
29:51
information about where to find
29:53
us and also about our show
29:53
website. In the meantime, I hope
29:58
you enjoyed it and have a great
29:58
day. Bye