Inclusion Bites

Inclusion Bites is a podcast series where Joanne Lockwood chats to some pretty amazing people and simply has a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Please subscribe to be notified of new episodes and if you would like to be a guest on the show then please make contact. Plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and listen in for a little bite of inspiration. #inclusionbites


episode 46: Stretching imaginations to achieve what's possible [transcript]

Marcus works with businesses that want to scale fast and is not afraid to ask shitty and uncomfortable questions. He challenges thinking, especially when it is learnt behaviour to help organisations remove the constraints that hold them back

Marcus believes we very rarely self-reflect because we are busy and fixated on carrying on doing things the way they have always been done, holding lots of attachment to received wisdom. He thinks that any important process should be reviewed every 3 months to consider; why did we start doing it this way, why are we still doing it this way, and does it serve our purpose and if it doesn’t, is there a better way? If you want better answers, you have to ask better questions.

  Published: 04.11.2021 Recorded: 16.08.2021 Duration: 1:01:25 Downloads: 38  

Within business Marcus asks, ‘What is the point in hiring brilliant people, if you are going to stop them being brilliant, by trying to micromanage and control them?’ Instead, we should try to create an environment where everyone can thrive. A culture of demand and control encourages internal competition, blame and excuses, which only serves a tiny handful of people who benefit from the status quo.

There is a theory in transactional analysis called, ‘Ok not Ok’. So, for me to feel Ok, I need to find someone more not OK than me, which can be very divisive. Within Marcus’ work he tries to find the common ground and then start collaborating, believing that if you show up with the right intent, empower people and ensure they have a voice, give them free reign to think for themselves and leave them to see what they are able to create. In this way you are able to draw the best out of everyone and allow them to do their best work every day. Marcus wants equity over equality and believes there is a real distinction between the two. He thinks we need to create a fairer environment so we can play to our greatest strengths and work with people who make our weaknesses seem irrelevant. Even if everyone receives the same information at the start of a project this does not mean everyone is on an equal playing field, as there are differences in people’s thought processes, approach. Equity is about giving people the chance and tools to succeed and within this we should find ways to include as many people as possible as we need to listen to both sides, as otherwise we are living in an echo chamber. We thrive as a species when we collaborate.

Marcus believes we need to empower and train middle managers so that they hire the best people from the entire marketplace and get the best out of them, understanding what their drivers are, pre-onboard them and then coach them. Give them the tools and resources that they need and give them a voice. This moves emphasis away from training to learning. It allows people to fail fast and fail early and then work together on how to fix it and make sure it doesn’t happen again, rather than being afraid of failure owning it and being able to move forward together.

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Brought to you by your host Joanne Lockwood
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A huge thank you to our wonderful guest Marcus Cauchi
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 2021-11-04  1h1m
00:00  Joanne Lockwood
Hello everyone my name is Joanne lockwood and I'm your host for the inclusion bytes podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me line to Jo dot lockwood at SEE Change Happen dot co do uk that's s wly change happen or co uk you'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes spotify at the usual places so plug in your headphones. Grab gaf and let's get going today is episode 46 with the title stretching imaginations to achieve what's possible and I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Marcus kauki marcus describes himself as someone who. Challenges idiocy and attachment to traditional ways of doing things when I asked Marcus to describe his superpower. He said it to be it is being able to ask shitty and uncomfortable questions. Hello marcus welcome to the show.
01:13  Marcus Cauchi
Hi Jo Thanks for having me.
01:16  Joanne Lockwood
Pleasure been looking forward to this for some time so Marcus we were talking just now before we started about stretching imaginations to achieve what's possible. What do you mean by that. So.
01:32  Marcus Cauchi
There's a lovely quote from Mark twain that your eyes won't see when your imagination is out of focus and I see an awful lot of attachment to this is the way we've always done it. Um. People holding on to received wisdom which is anything but wise and there's a lovely story. Um, whether it's true or not doesn't really matter. Never let the truth get and have a good story in the nineteen seventy s there was a captain who was commissioned. To observe and do a time and motion study on artillery firing and he was watching these gunners load these guns and after they carried the shell and put it in the back of the breach um and closed it 1 of them would turn around. Stand to attention facing backwards and the other 1 would march eight paces turn around stand to attention with his right hand behind his back and hold up his left arm and he couldn't understand why they were doing this. Um, and. The the 1 who walked backwards would nod and then the other 1 would fire the gun anyway, long story short. He asked them why and said well no idea that's the way we were trained to train trained to fire the guns and that's why we fire the guns in this man's army set who trained you the gunnery sergeant. So. Off they went if you went to the gunnery sergeant gunny. Why do you teach them to do it this way. That's the way I was trained to train them sir. That's the way we trained them in this man's army sir that's the way we fire the guns in this man. Um Sir. So after then yeah, a couple of weeks of observing this behavior. He couldn't fathom for the and any reason why they would do this. And he was in the pub outside the barracks in lark hill um, and this old codger came in who had been in world war 1 as a gunner and said have you got any idea why they do this and so oh yeah, they're holding the horses now they haven't had horse drawn artillery for 50 years and um my question is always why you holding the horses if you want better answers you have to ask better questions and self-reflection is something that almost never happens because people are so busy and fixated on doing things the way they've always done them. They don't question. I Reckon any so important process needs to be reviewed every 3 months. Why why did we start doing it this way. Why are we still doing it does it serve us does it serve our customers does it serve our people and if it doesn't is there a better way and if so what is it um.
And ah, you know? Ah, if we bring this into the context of diversity um equity and inclusion. Um, why is it. We recruit people of a certain type most of my work is around sales and if you listen to the tonality of um. Ah, salesperson. Are they somebody who is heavily motivated by self-interest and scarcity or dog-eat dog because that means that they're probably a taker. Um, if they are heavily focused on self-interest and ah. Abundance. They're really more interested in keeping what they've got um if they are somebody who is focused on delivering universal value but also Scarcity. They're probably someone who's very much about control and. If they're abundance thinkers and they have universal value as key drivers then they're very much focused on service. So I want people who want to serve I don't want to people who are ah people who are interested in the status quo. Who are selfishly self-orientated or who are trying to operate in a command and control structure. That's not how reality works we operate in complex systems against wicked problems and wicked problems require you. To understand that the first solution will probably fail and you've got to gather data stakeholders differ the rules change as you play and there is no perfect answer only in perfect options and so that's the world that I play in.
06:04  Joanne Lockwood
I brilliant I mean there's ah, there's a couple of lovely votes in now and I think let go of the horses I think that as brilliant we got ah we got to analyze the real history behind some of the ways we do things and you're you're so right.
06:10  Marcus Cauchi
Um, yeah.
06:20  Joanne Lockwood
I See so many examples of the command of control mentality if I can't see you I can't trust you that the whole struggle that people have working flexibly agilely remotely really breaks down that command and control because many of our leaders have been trained or they've evolved. In this control way haven't they and they want to see the people they want to manage the people they haven't learnt to evolve their style so that they can empower the people that are working for them and.
06:52  Marcus Cauchi
And that's key in order to earn. Trust you have to give trust and in order to have control. You have to relinquish control you hire great people I mean Steve jobs is famously quoted. And for what's you know, saying something along the lines and what's the point of hiring brilliant people if you're going to try and stop them from being brilliant by controlling them. Um, you need to create an environment where they can thrive and I see this I mean diversity is a topic that most organizations pay lip service to um. Because they say we're an equal opportunities employer and they put a tick in the box and they hire for difference and they fire for not fitting in and they make it impossible for people of difference to fit in. We're all freaks. We're all different. We're all broken. Um, and what we need to do is find people whose imperfections fit neatly with our imperfections so that we can become better and and there's a wonderful experiment of a picture of a tiger in the grass and most people will say that they see the tiger or. If they're more from the oriental. Um, um, environment. They'll talk about the jungle with a tiger and but unless you get both and you get to see the whole perspective. Um, then you miss out and so you end up being very blinkered. And and that means that you diminish your creativity in tackling difficult problems and at the moment I'm on a mission I have 5 big, great big hairy arst audacious goals 1 is to take 8 companies to a billion dollars profitable revenue. Without the wheels and wings coming off with customers for life and to become destination employers. So people are queuing up because they love to come to work here. Um, the second is to ah rip the legs out from the entire marketing and advertising industry which is a monstrous con. Um. There are 4 point 3 quadrillion digital adverts served up every year that get 1 or zero clicks and google and Facebook make 2 hundred and 65 billion dollars on the gullibility and idiocy of their their customers. The venture capital and private equity market is utterly broken and corrupt and it's creating a bubble. Ah, within technology where people are fixated on revenue growth, new logo acquisition and a fictional pipeline because that allows them to fiddle their notional value instead of creating strong fundamentally. Well-built businesses with people who love coming to work.
Give massive discretionary effort that are led by fantastic leaders who get twice as much out of their employees through discretionary effort and giving them trust than people who try and command and control who get half as much as they possibly could so. There's a four hundred percent differential. And the fourth is making sales a force for good There were 2 studies that came out at the end of 2021 from gartner that said thirty three percent of business-to-business buyers. Want a 100 percent seller free buying experience and that's a damning indictment of our industry or our profession. Um. And another study from linkedin that said sixty seven percent of buyers consider sales and salespeople to be morally bankrupt and I can't disagree I'm amazed. It's only it's only 60 7 because the values. Um and the behavior. Um that ah permeate from. Investors through leadership through management through to salespeople that then put the customer at the end of a long chain of ah abuse and make them a forgotten afterthought and make that inevitable and then the fifth is to look at the sales training environment. Um. And work out why that isn't working and fix it because people should really want to learn. They should want to get better instead. You have 3 groups of people. you've got a tiny fraction who want to learn you've got a bunch who are entitled and they expect. Ah, their company to serve them up training and then you have most others who just want to be left alone and to get on with it and survive on their basic salary and they may take home commissions 4 or 8 months in the year um and all of that is broken now when you tie them all together and you look at the problems with. Um, culture investors compensation measurement recruitment and hiring on boarding training. Um their perception of the customer. The the customer cannot possibly feel safe and so. The central theme around all of this is creating Bias safety I fundamentally believe every buyer deserves to be safe whenever they are dealing with a salesperson or a vendor organization and ninety nine times out of a Hundred I believe that they cannot feel safe which is why you create this. Adversarial relationship between vendor and py and and that doesn't serve anyone and so I'm looking at all of these things as a complex system and in the same way that if you take a digital um an slr camera you got film speed the iso number.
You got the aperture and you got the shutter speed if you change any 1 of those without adjusting at least 1 of the other 2 then the picture gets distorted Now. Companies are way more sophisticated than that you've got all these different moving parts. Um working. Often against 1 another because you've got a culture that is command and control encourages internal competition and that drives blame excuses Avoidance behavior and everyone play and cover your ass and none of that is good for anybody. Um, all it does is it serves a tiny handful I lie a tiny handful of people and who benefit from the status quo ah and my view is that the status quo needs to be rocked.
13:13  Joanne Lockwood
I agree completely I think when you look at I mean picking up a something. You just said there the the concept this black box thinking that the Matthew sayad book and quote that where you empower your people you you you put the decisionmaking. Closer to the point of contact rather than him to refer Back. You get better outcomes as the airlines found and as we still see the challenge in organizations such as the and nhs where they have this very much command and control structure. Everyone is asked covering everyone's worried about litigation. Everyone's worried about making mistakes. Nobody's prepared to be open. Okay I'm generalizing their apologies to from thehs that's feel us that way but from an outsides perspective we. We do end up couching a lot of this um based in in in the protection of of ah stopping people failing if you like. I think you I picked up what you said earlier. It's about failing quickly learning. Okay, if you've got your if you've got your fingers deep into someone's brain. You don't want to fail quickly there. But if you're doing other tasks. You've got to learn and and I've had this discussion with people in the past where I've said well we've got to fail quickly. And and all these nlp practitioners start you me all this rubbish about it's not about failings about learning I say you learn through failure you learn through making mistakes you learn through trying and you you can change the language you can put all these soft stuff in there.
14:35  Marcus Cauchi
Um, actually.
14:44  Joanne Lockwood
No 1 ne's a no 1 to lose it. Everyone's a winner in their own right? But really what you've got to do is you've got to learn that you don't always succeed and learn how to deal with that and learn from that.
14:51  Marcus Cauchi
But I think what's happened is we've become afraid ah to have conflict and and and we're we're afraid of all conflict whereas Constructive conflict is fantastically useful.
15:01  Joanne Lockwood
15:11  Marcus Cauchi
Um, we tread on eggshells I've done a series of conversations around d and I um and what's really interested me is when you have a grownup conversation with people who are wildly different. Um I've spoken to you I've spoken to ricky arundel I've um. had dave mcqueen on I've had rod jefferson on and yeah ah a variety of people who have a very different perspective to me what I'm looking for is the common ground and this is where I think. People misunderstand the concept of win-win and win-win is difficult because it's about finding a win for everybody without compromise and the problem is that win-win is often about capitulation. We give stuff away in the hope that they may give us the business or whatever. Um, it's bloody hard work leadership management are bloody hard work. They require you ah to put yourself in harm's way to be vulnerable. And the root cause ah the the root origin of the word vulnerable comes from the Latin vulnet ebulis and it means to put yourself in a position where you may get wounded or hurt and do it anyway, it's an act of courage and it also requires you to come with an open mind. And this is where there is a massive difference between the majority who operate playing a finite game where the objective is to get to the end of the game having won or not lost and that's taking a bigger piece of a shrinking pie. And I see this all the time it drives scarcity mindset. Um, it's very self selfish. Um, it means that you become very protective. You're a detractor. You're cynical. You snipe you're focused on keeping what you've got. Um, it creates mistrust whereas an infinite game player. Their objective is to keep the game going and make the pie bigger. So everyone can have a bigger slice. It means that you need to learn how to accept others for who they are without judgment. Um. It means that you have to embrace the difference and I did um a really interesting interview with a lady called cura john warren and who heads up the sales team for a company called rare recruitment and they place black candidates in.
Law firms hedge funds accountancy firms and management consultancies and the frustration of placing these brilliant minds in places where they cannot fit in. Um. And they they end up leaving so you've spent a fortune ticking a box being woke. Um diversity is not about um, ticking a box diversity is about pooling incredible talent and having different perspectives. Different races genders sexual orientations, different religions politics socioeconomic backgrounds so that you can come up with a much better solution and and my experience has been fueled over the last 2 years um by running my own podcast I think we're up to ah episode 3 hundred and 30 I've had access to four and a half thousand years of collective experience on that podcast now I cannot even begin to tell you. How that has shifted my ability to conceive of new solutions that 2 years ago when I first started it. There wasn't a hope in hell I knock out 2 to 3 episodes a week because it's become an addiction. Um, yeah, the the learning that I get and the fact that my thinking has been challenged so consistently. Um, and we fight and we disagree who cares I don't mind fighting I don't mind being wrong and you got to leave your ego at the door and you got to stop your attachment 1 of my mentors Mark galston who wrote a book that if you're part the species you have to read it. It's called just listen. By Mark galulston and he's become a mentor of mine. The good friend. Um, and he's come up with a wonderful phrase that he taught me which was let go or be dragged and the Buddha said that attachment is the root to all misery you need to let go of your attachment. If. You don't then it will end up grinding you down. You will start judging others and there is a fabulous model that describes every broken dysfunctional screwed up relationship you can or will ever have on 3 points of a triangle. It's called the drama triangle and if you imagine an equilateral triangle. On its sharp point and at the bottom you have the victim voice top left the persecutor and top right? The the rescuer the victim's voice sounds like it so unfair. Why me this always happens and their favorite byline is say.
Me help me okay and the persecutor comes with a jabby index phone ah pronoun sorry jabby index finger and the pronoun you in capital letters shone up in lights with ah an exclamation mark at the end. You piece of shit you always you never? you're such a and it diminishes you at an identity level who you are and the most divisive interestingly enough is the rescuer rescuing is helping without boundaries or permission. Rescuers tend to end up as micromanages they suffer from upward delegation and create learned helplessness persecutors drive out any form of entrepreneurialism free thinking and they they eliminate risk taking because people don't put their head above the parapet. And victims love a pity party and there's nothing they enjoy more than sharing their wounds. Um and comparing how bad their wounds are rescuers also tend to be Molly coddling and permissive and ego thrives on Drama. So anytime you hear anyone. Take any 1 of those 3 positions. You've now got attachment through the ego now my favorite philosopher Bruce lee was asked. What's the best way to avoid a punt and he said be somewhere else. It's bloody awesome advice. You only have to move your head to the side that's somewhere else and but. Be somewhere else and that is the winners Triangle so instead of being a victim. You're vulnerable instead of being a persecutor you're assertive and instead of being a um rescuer you're nurturing an empathic now this triangle. Is on its flat base. So. It's very stable. The drama triangle is on its point. So it's very unstable and in fact, what tends to happen in the drama triangle is people just swap positions. It's so unfair. You always do this. You're always picking on me. You don't understand I'm doing my best yeah and people go around it in fact and I'm not very proud of this I have to be honest, but it was a good object lesson I remember having a fight with my wife without involving her. So um, one Friday she said to me. I'm going to decorate the living room tomorrow and so in my family diy stands for don't involve yourself and so um, I've very smartly gave a kiss went to sleep now 11 thirty six the following day having watched and the cookery programs.
I thought no wonder if she wants help so I went downstairs and I said sweetheart do you want help and she said only if you want to now in my world only if you want to meant get your bucket and brushes and pull your weight. So I went to garages I got my bucket brushes and this cloud formed over my head lightning thunder hail and um, can't believe she's grope me into bloody thing I hate I think d I wine when had a long week anyway um went into the living room and started tearing off little bits of wallpaper. Yeah and and after about 8 or nine minutes. She just looked across and said sweetheart you okay, you don't really seem fully engaged in this activity and I said well you know strange to victim you know I had a hard week and said well you know I I know you had a hard week and I haven't seen you at all and I thought be nice to do something together now I managed to have an entire fight with my wife without her even being involved. That's how stupid we are as a species so I look for that stuff. It's everywhere you look at the things that we we consider to be entertainment dramas soap operas reality tv the news. The news is all about watching other people's misery so we can say thank god that's not me or mine.
24:45  Joanne Lockwood
And it's very true and I've had a conversation with Journalists and publishers and editors and there has to be a human tragedy in there somewhere for it to be Newsworthy person gets up to the morning has a great day. Comes home has dinner goes to bed is not newsworthy which is the majority of what we do people want to be taken out of that mundane reality and shocked and awed into something else aren't they and that's what sells to.
25:16  Marcus Cauchi
There's a um theory in transactional analysis called okay, not okay and the basic premise around the human condition is this for me to feel. Okay I need to find someone more not okay than me. And just think about how divisive that is if we're both. Okay, we can get stuff done so again, a lot of the work that I do is about creating finding the common ground finding what we both want and then working on collaborating. And sometimes we have to make compromises here or there but by and large if we bother to listen and listening is the transfer of meaning if we show up with the right intent we can do some amazing things as a species we have accomplished enormous things. But the reality is that's probably point 3 percent of our population throughout the entire history of humanity has made those fabulous strides. Um, but I love it when you get teams of what appear to be quite average people and you give them trust. You empower them. You ah, ensure that they have a voice and and you set them on a problem and the leader only intervenes when they are truly stuck. And then they give the pen back the moment they have enough information to carry on on their own and there is a wonderful book called multiplierers by liz wiseman again, a must must read and if you haven't read that yet and you're in management or leadership. It is a must along with just listen. I mean the the fact that so few people um, have learnt to love learning is a damning indictment of our school system I still remember I'm going back to when I was 15 there was Dr. Mcglocklin. Um, and it was our general studies ao level which is but dating me badly and and we had to do a summit it was assault it was assault negotiations over nuclear disarmament and we played the russians and the americans and all of this kind of stuff I still remember that class. With incredible vivid joy and because we were given free rein to think for ourselves to feed off 1 another's ideas and and to come up with solutions and actually we came up with some pretty decent ones. Um, yeah for 15 year olds with our limited scope.
And because what we were looking for There was the common ground. We weren't turning up defending our empire or defending our dogma and and you know I think far far too. Little attention is focused on diversity equity and inclusion. Not fan of equality I am a fan of equity. It needs to be fair, the equality piece I think is a distraction and what I think is really important is that we um draw the best out of people and allow them to do their best work every day. That means when they come they give massive Discretionary effort.
28:42  Joanne Lockwood
You think it's a distraction because I hear this all the time where people say oh it's equity. It's not equality is this is this just distraction that we being up people just trying to be Clever. You could you could say equality is around giving people equity as Well. Or we just or people just trying to be clever by going Actually no, it's not equality. It's equity we need or do you think there is a real distinction in.
29:06  Marcus Cauchi
I Think there is a real distinction and I don't think the world is equal I don't think the world is fair but we can make it fairer um that there is a massive disparity in Wealth power education and so On. Um, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the interpretation of the meaning. Um, but I really believe that what we should be doing is creating a fair environment where and we have a chance to play to our greatest strengths and we work with people whose strengths make our weaknesses irrelevant.
29:41  Joanne Lockwood
29:42  Marcus Cauchi
Um, that is a fabulous kind of environment I've set up a global community called Sales Aforce for good with a view to collecting the most difficult problems asking the Gnarliestt shittiest questions that everyone is avoiding. Um, and coming up with solutions and making those solutions freely available for any member of the community forever. Um, and they have equal access to that. Um, and how they choose to Implement. It is up to them but there won't be equality. There'll be differences in their ability to implement. In their thought process in their willingness to submit ah to um, giving up control and some people will turn up and just steal it because they can and I'm cool with that. Because God knows they need to improve their performance and it' all hopefully improve what they deliver? Um, but um, equity is really about just giving people the chance and yeah.
30:45  Joanne Lockwood
The and the tools and that to succeed. Yeah I agree and um I just sometimes get caught up or frustrated with the the deck chair on the Titanic brigade where we start off by saying is it B and I is it Ed and I is it. Debbie. Is it equity or is it equality and we spend a lot of time trying to decide ah diversity equity equality belonging and inclusion so people are all trying to cram his acronyms in and sometimes I think well we're just rearranging the deck chairs here. We're not really.
31:05  Marcus Cauchi
Um, here What's that be.
All right? My god.
31:22  Joanne Lockwood
Tackling the issues we're trying to work out what my title is what my job is and it's very inward and and when're not actually going out and solving the problem we're trying to define our own place in the world by being a a culture officer or a dni officer or whatever we want to call ourselves.
31:41  Marcus Cauchi
I've not had a lot of exposure to those sorts of role functions. Um, but what what I am conscious of is as over the last 30 years and the political narrative has been very cleverly and very subtly. Hijacked by the far right? Um, and you've got these large super pacs run by the koch brothers and the divorces and and the ah european um research group and whatever and they've shifted the narrative and the left. Has taken the bait. Um, and so they've created and they've they've so pulled away from the middle ground and I'm ah a diehard wishy-washy liberal. Um I I believe that everybody has the right to Thrive. Um. Have a belief that we have a responsibility to contribute not just take out. Um I believe that we should help our othello man now I started out interestingly enough I've gone the other way so I'm obviously following. Um the the wrong process based on the old. Um, adage that if you're ah, um, you start out being a socialist and you as you grow wiser you become more conservative I don't believe that and I think we should find ways to include as many people as possible. Um and give people. Ah. Ah, forum and the conditions so that they can thrive they can do their best work. Um and revel in the difference but the right has shifted that Narrative. So um, people like you and people of color people of. Um, different political views are seen as them and then them worse as fast. Yeah now. Um, ah I have friends who hold those views but I welcome having them in my.
33:39  Joanne Lockwood
Yeah, the othering? Yeah yeah.
33:52  Marcus Cauchi
Network and I don't exclude them because I fundamentally believe that if I do then I live in an echo chamber equally I've got friends who are rapidlyd the other end of the spectrum. Um, and unless I listen to both sides. I'm never ever going to actually get the full picture and this is where um I've seen our politics shift. Our terrible phenomenally bad leadership in politics and has gone awry um, and we now have um, a handful. And it's not like this is new. We have a handful of super rich, Super powerful people who really do control the narrative they control. Um the flow of cash and capital um and that worries me seriously worries me and because. It's unforgiving. It lacks compassion and it's selfish and the thing that made us thrive as a species is our ability to collaborate. It's to pass on that wisdom ah through the generations. But I look at what's happened to education. Yeah, my my children have just gone through secondary educational. They're just in the latter stages and and what worries me is the lack of scope the lack of Breadth. Um, yeah since the nineteen eighty s. Education has moved towards back to creating fodder for them. The the workforce. Um, and ah so things like music ah art have been marginalized and diminished and yeah, the school that my daughters. We're at and they stopped running german I mean why would we stop learning a language of our close neighbors and that's horrific. Yeah, and it just baffles me that um we we hire in our own image often only weaker. Um. We yeah, we might hire people of different color or gender orientation. But if they all read ppe oxford that's not a diverse team if they all ended up becoming lllb's and getting a law degree. That's not diversity and um. Despair when I look at companies because I go into companies and it's almost impossible for me not to find four hundred percent growth inside of 2 hours. It's and it's really not that difficult when you stop them asking stupid questions and you ask really basic.
Uncomfortable questions then it opens up a wealth of potential now these are companies that are struggling to make four percent growth or twelve percent growth and 2 hours in have found four hundred percent that you can find probably within seven months but then they don't believe it because they're. Still holding the horses. It's that attachment and that's legal.
37:03  Joanne Lockwood
So how can we create a culture where the centerground conversations are not dismissed as woke or politically correct. We're allowing people to have their own identity. Because moment we're pushing people to the edges aren't we as you say the far left the far right? Whatever that may mean the extremist views the Brexit and remain was a classic debate There was no way anyone could have a discussion around the middle ground the facts that was erased. You're either for or you're against um and you.
37:21  Marcus Cauchi
Um, yeah.
37:40  Joanne Lockwood
We we were. We were verging on that with vaccinations and mask wearing where you could see that polarization occurring. But fortunately there was enough cent Grand Discussion discussions here where information came out facts came out and people were were allowed to have those conversations so that.
37:55  Marcus Cauchi
37:57  Joanne Lockwood
Most people move to the center rather than being really polarized on it. So how do we create that business.
38:00  Marcus Cauchi
Well you say most but it's only a small majority. Yeah know we we still have forty percent of the population here and in the Us that are unvaccinated and probably won't be and and I would is it.
38:13  Joanne Lockwood
And it is 25 isn't it of adults I think we're up to 80 percent roughly of of of add 1 and seventy have had 2 haven't they.
38:18  Marcus Cauchi
Okay, well hand a few.
Right? Okay, but that's still a very large minority and I was speaking to 1 of my collaborators this morning and um, a really good friend of his was a very successful entrepreneur. And he recently died from covid wouldn't have a vaccine wouldn't wear a mask thought it was just a massive hoax. Um, and yeah, what? what a waste because we didn't learn how to find the common ground and I think this is where. We need to teach at a management level and at a leadership level what it really means to lead and what it really means to manage most managers are glorified supervisors. Um, and they beat you with a stick. They beat you with a carrot. Um, and they're command and control freaks. Um, and um, um, ah jonathan farrington who's a very well-respected player in the sales arena and he's the editor for top sales world magazine. He did a study for the src which is a research center. Um, and he found that ninety four percent of managers were not fit for purpose now. Honestly I'm amazed. The number is that low. However, let's give them the benefit the doubt. Um. What most managers spend their time is on the supervisory piece. What most what managers should be doing I have 5 things on the job description for a great manager hire. The best people. That doesn't mean hire the best people within our own ethnic group or within our our own orientation. It means hire the best people from the entire marketplace get the best out of them that means we need to understand what their drivers. What their motivations are. We need to on pre-onboard them on board them coach them train them but coaching almost never happens in the same study. They identified that seventy six percent of managers think they give coaching but only seventeen percent of their people believe they receive it. Now. That's a huge disparity that becomes.
40:47  Joanne Lockwood
Is that because often managers think coaching is telling isn't because coaching is asking questions isn't it and people aren't good at asking questions. They want to share their view or their knowledge. What.
40:52  Marcus Cauchi
Yeah, all turning up and bringing to he right.
There is definitely an element of that but very often they turn up and they become the Hero closer Jo. Let me show you how a real sell salesperson does it and they puff up their chest and they diminish the ah the salesperson they undermine them. Um, so hire. The best people get the best out of them. Make sure they have the tools and resources they need to do their best work every day that doesn't mean being seduced by the technology spaghetti and shiny object syndrome of buying lots of tech. What's the minimum level of technology. You need to do your best work. What are the systems and processes you need to underpin. What you do so that you're free to do your best work and focus on the stuff that matters the most. The fourth 1 is to act as and the point guard. Ah, your job is to protect them from acts of idiocy from your senior leadership and yourself and and help them clear roadblocks. They can't clear on their own and the fifth fifth is to give them a voice. It's to manage inclusively now if every manager's job description was started with those five points and they were measured compensated and rewarded for it. Then the emphasis would be away from training to learning the emphasis would be a way from telling to coaching and you would allow people to fail fast fail early fail often and you don't punish failure which again your persecutor managers. Do. Ah, what you do is you punish hiding it. You keep a failure log everybody writes there's failures in the failure log and on a regular basis you work out. Well right? How do we fix that and stop it from happening again. But that just doesn't happen in most organizations. Why. Because of ego and attachment holding on to what they thought made them successful and you only have to look at the demise of blockbuster and Nokia um, and the rise of yeah and wherever you look. It's that more than not.
43:05  Joanne Lockwood
Ah, a it group you name it.
43:13  Marcus Cauchi
Yeah, we were driving off to the joust um at lockxwood yesterday and we drove past a defunct debenham store and my wife was bemoaning the fact that debenhams had um, closed down and I said stupid leadership inevitably it comes down to crap leadership. Doing really stupid things and holding the horses that it's not like devenhams couldn't have survived. It didn't because their leaders were myopic.
43:42  Joanne Lockwood
Or they made decisions 101520 years ago that put in a vulnerable position in terms of their overexposure some of the big organizations. They sold off all their property assets and became tenants so they had no capital. They had no way of leveraging. And the assets of the business when they needed money and I think there's a lot of short-term shareholder gain wasn't it.
44:01  Marcus Cauchi
I I didn't yeah but I'd even challenge that because there are plenty of organizations that have no assets and no property but they still manage to thrive. Um, so again, Yes, that was a contributory factor. Um, but.
44:13  Joanne Lockwood
44:20  Marcus Cauchi
How about actually listening to your customers marks and spencers is another great 1 if you go into Mars and Spencer's their range is always boring as hell The only thing that's really propping that business up is their food and because there are few people who are diehard loyalists. Um, but as a shop. Um I I won't shop there because of a terrible experience I had picking up a christmas turkey them what 18 years ago and that stuck with me and because I just thought yeah if you treat me like that you can stuff it. There's no way you're getting another penny on me.
44:56  Joanne Lockwood
So We're coming at co so this is what we're We're middle of August people are starting to feel more relaxed about themselves and you see these conflicting Messages. You know I watched on telly that you've got government Ministers you've got property Developers. All. Spelling the the virtues of going back to the office Now. It's essential. We All go back to the office to create this great workforce which is going against well most of the people I speak to in terms of the feeling that they they want this adjut. Agile workforce they want to they want to have the choice of where they work in an office at home work flexibly but the command and control is dragging them back but the excuse I keep hearing is how do we create environments where people can learn on the job. How can we have these water cooler conversations that people will so valuableably need in order to to grow and come up with ideas and I say well yes, but there has to be more than 1 solution. The solution cannot be go to the office. Has to be another solution says don't go to the office and do it differently. So Do you have any thoughts on that.
46:18  Marcus Cauchi
Do you have another hour. Um, so absolutely and again that the solution that you come up with the first 1 will fail and there is no perfect answer.
46:21  Joanne Lockwood
Ah, imminence. Yeah.
46:34  Marcus Cauchi
We are dealing with wicked problems here. We're not dealing with linear problems. We're dealing with 3 3 four dimensional problems. Um, that are complex and the backlash on this is that I think Mr. A gartner. It. Their study said forty six percent of employees. In the United states are considering a job change this year now my mother keeps phoning during the most inopity awards and so and the the problem that we have is that um so many.
46:59  Joanne Lockwood
Okay, is solid.
47:11  Marcus Cauchi
Organizations are looking to go back to what they want what they had before at a leadership level but their employees don't want it. In fact, there was ah and a study in 2020 that said something like ninety seven percent of employees. Want some form of balance between working from home and working in the office and and as a result and there was another survey that came out that said something like 76 percent of cfos were rebalancing their budgets. Ah, in order to facilitate that and we don't need to go back? Um, the the organizations that insist on people going back I think will suffer from a massive talent drain and when people leave an organization knowledge goes out. And that's going to be a massive problem for them which they have not factored in and so yes I think there is a solution which is to find a blended solution that allows people to work collaboratively and the technology is now out there. There is ah a wonderful man. Ah, Ed professor eddie oban excuse me who runs a company called and of and pentacle business school and and he's got a platform called cube q u b e and which allows people to work collaboratively. At the same time remotely and and he's got a ninety six percent success rate of driving transformation and change programs to succeed in the intended outcome now this kind of technology has been out there actually for quite a while but because we've been command and control. Office based. It's a struggle done a lot work in the nhs. Um, which again it's notoriously difficult to work in but they're making enormous strides. Um, and again I think we need to really rethink. Questions that we ask what is the desired outcome. What are we trying to achieve in the end and what is our common purpose. What are the things that we share and how can we facilitate that and and that's not really being thought about by a lot of leadership. Because they are fixated on. How do we get back to the nice stable, um, environment that we and know and love that we grew up in um, but the status quo is your biggest competitor in sales on average sixty percent of buying cycles.
End up with do nothing. That's really your biggest competitor internally the status quo I see as a toxic dangerous thing now. The problem is people believe that human beings don't like change. Actually what they hate is uncertainty. So what can we do to find ways to give them certainty to give them clarity focus direction help them understand their place within the um, the system and what contribution they can make and but. Um, and when was the last time you heard of anyone sat down with their manager talking about their career path and so I look at um, what 1 of the books I'm writing this year is what the sales management apprenticeship because your average sales manager gets tapped on the shoulder and told Jo. We've just fired your idiot boss. You're now the idiot boss congratulations and that's your runway so you don't learn how to do the job. They're very different jobs now being an individual contributor I question that as well. And because I think you need to be a collaborative contributor to be really powerful and ah to excel and but to be an individual contributor. You got to focus on yeah, just doing your stuff and but to be a manager you have to have your heart sing by helping other people. Meet their fullest potential. You have to love watching other people make more money than you be more successful than you ah get the accolades take the credit but almost none of that happens in a traditional operation whether it's commercial or otherwise and I remember years back my brother worked for the red cross. And that was essentially fuelled by a bunch of egos of trustees. It. It had bugger all to do with the the recipients. It was all about whether someone could get a knighthood or whether they could get invited to a particular garden party. It's crazy angers me that um. Ego again, it keeps coming back to these simple things. So I think what we need to be is really much more um aware of who turns up the language patterns they use the history that they come from with. Got to invest more in the recruitment process so that we instill in people. Um about who we are and why we do what we do that there is a phenomenally interesting company. Um, ah called ah a k c global.
And um, these guys um work on ah truly wicked difficult problems and um, what's really interesting is um how they do things. In their manifesto. We guard the gates preferring to hire from those. We've gotten to know or get to know before hiring. We're constantly teaching each other and learning because knowledge builds insights and options. We're not fans of hierarchy or titles because age or status doesn't guarantee wisdom or creativity. We do incredible work by giving smart, talented and kind people kind people incredible freedom and Responsibilities. We put our values into practice by using them to decide who leads is rewarded and is let go and what's really interesting is these guys have been solving. Global problems with the likes of the un in the balkans in Rwanda in afghanistan and trying to help other people solve problems. Nothing is worth doing that's worth doing is accomplished Alone. Solutions have to be e vote not imposed our work must build social value for us. There is only the bottom up name and treat the causes not the symptoms someone else can handle the tame stuff. We do good work and then move on I mean with that kind of philosophy. I absolutely get why? it's an exciting place to work. Yeah, if I wasn't doing what I was doing I'd be applying in an instant.
54:21  Joanne Lockwood
I well absolutely fascinating conversation with you. Um I don't think I've I've spoken so little in any of the podcasts because you've been absolutely enthralling to listen to I mean I came up the title at the beginning stretching imaginations achieve what's possible. And I think you have certainly stretched my imagination over the last hour and I'm going to take away a few things here so to let letting go of the horses. You know we have. We're prisoners to our own beliefs sometimes and we're going to let go and not believe that the way we've always done. It is's going to be the way we should always do it.
54:59  Marcus Cauchi
Um, absolutely.
55:00  Joanne Lockwood
And reframe readjust our thinking to come up with new solutions and the Drama triangle I love the drama tri I don't love it I I love the Concepts or I'm going to do some research on that and because yeah I'm very conscious about my own use of the word hue and the pointy finger and.
55:18  Marcus Cauchi
55:19  Joanne Lockwood
Whenever I film stuff doing it I immediately turn the finger around and talk about I Um and I think sometimes when you're a minority is very easy to fall into that.
55:24  Marcus Cauchi
But the the important takeaway from that the important takeaway from that though. Jo is the winner's triangle the winner's Triangle means you never get sucked into the fight people cannot play those psychological game with you when you operate from the winner's triangle.
55:31  Joanne Lockwood
Yeah, and.
It? Yeah, and so we're so ingrained into the Drama triangle I think as a society because there are so many people who are who want to be saved. There's the people who want to save the victim then the drama and then the. Pointy finger brigade so I see it all the time and you're right? It's stepping out of that and taking control. Yeah.
56:04  Marcus Cauchi
Do you want a really good exercise learn and a really a really fabulous exercise to raise awareness of your use of the Drama triangle. Um, there is a buddhist mantra for happiness which is never complain about anything even to myself and that means even in thought. So you take an index card and you write down the buddhist mantra for happiness on the back and then you divide the other side into 7 columns and whatever day you start it on That's the first column and every time you wine moan bitch complain judge grumble yeah, or. And you find yourself being sucked into the pointy finger or the victim or anything you just Mark a tally now. The first day I did this was a Wednesday I got 29 points the second day I got nine because my awareness level started getting heightened. And I caught myself before I went down that bad route the third day Friday I got 3 and I went home and my wife and kids both said all said to me are you? Okay, yeah, something seems Wrong. So then I grumbled and I had a fourth. Ah, the next day seventeen the next day. Twenty 2 the next five days 3 3 3 3 3 yeah the next day 31 the next day twenty eight yeah and I was at home on Saturday and Sunday with the people I'm meant to love but my level of attachment there is significantly higher. At work I could let go and you do this for about 6 or 8 weeks and you just raise your awareness level of when you get sucked into that drama triangle. It's incredibly potent. It is literally life changing.
57:50  Joanne Lockwood
Um, because I noticed when I looked at the bio you filled in for the show you describe yourself as ah, a curmudgeonly old man who holds up the elderly mirror and the definition of Comergenly is a bad tempered negative person. So you.
58:08  Marcus Cauchi
58:10  Joanne Lockwood
But you're you're you're using that in a different way Now you're using that to empower and own that.
58:16  Marcus Cauchi
Yeah I I hold the ugly mirror up to myself. Um I'm very tough on myself. Um, and I stick I have this huge attachment to all the terrible things I've done as a parent as a husband. Um, and it's.
58:21  Joanne Lockwood
58:36  Marcus Cauchi
Yeah I have to hold myself up to a higher standard because 1 of the things that I've built is this um ah bio safety model and 1 of the core pillars is rigorous authenticity. Um, if you speak to me I will always tell you the truth. There'll be a little voice inside of me saying I'll go on. Guild the lily um, yeah know but and a pal of mine told me ah you can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter and it's still Aterred. Um and there's an awful lot of that around and I don't believe that you can be partly rigorously authentic. You either are or you're not. And there is no middle ground on that and so I have to hold up that ugly mirror and I'll always tell you the truth. Even when it terrifies me or it could do me harm. That's all.
59:24  Joanne Lockwood
Fantastic! Thank you so much. So Marcus tell us how people can get hold of you. Um, where's the best place to do that.
59:36  Marcus Cauchi
Easiest ways are Linkedin. Um, I'm 1 of 2 Marcus cowkis. There's another young Marcus cowki over in Essex he's a recruiter I'm the grumpy looking old man with my hands head in my hands on my profile. Ah, you can email me my company email address is Marcus at laughshiphenlast dot com I'm the underscore inquisitor on Twitter and I have a couple of podcasts which you're welcome to subscribe and listen to 1 is the inquisster podcast and the other 1 is scale ups and hypergrowth. Um, and the sales of force for good community. Check that out on linkedin as well.
1:00:17  Joanne Lockwood
So william I'll put all of those details in the show notes and for those people who are not um Maltese how do you spell cowki.
1:00:19  Marcus Cauchi
Like you.
C A U C H I Thank you for asking what that's it per I.
1:00:30  Joanne Lockwood
C u c h I pronounce cowkey as in cow and key brilliant I learned that today. Ah well, it's been absolutely awesome and I'm sure all of our listeners will take much inspiration from this. Um, ah so my last. Ah thing today is to thank you the listener for tuning in listening in please do subscribe to keep up updateating on future episodes of the inclusion bytes podcast that's b I t yes, tell your friends 10 your colleagues share the link I've got a number of. Other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you'd like to be a guest. Please let me know and as usual I'd welcome your thoughts feedback suggestions on how I can improve future shows to Jo dot lockwood sdj happen dot codedk. So finally, my name is Joanne lockwood and it's been absolute pleasure. Host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.