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Launch Your Podcasting Career with Twila Dang [transcript]


Twila Dang, founder of Matriarch Digital Media, shares her journey of transitioning from radio to podcasting, why it's important to dream big, and some things you should know before joining a podcast network.

Check out Matriarch Digital Media and follow Twila on Twitter

Buzzsprout's Dynamic Content tool now allows you to save multiple clips in your Dynamic Content Library and track how many downloads each clip receives. Learn more on our New Features page.


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 2021-11-26  1h9m
 
 
00:00  Alban
Hey everybody, welcome
00:00
back. I'm super excited today to
00:03
bring you an interview with
00:03
Twyla. Dang. Twyla is the
00:06
founder and CEO of Matriarch
00:06
digital media. It's a media
00:10
company and podcast network that
00:10
understands, promotes and
00:13
elevates women. She works at
00:13
Minnesota Public Radio, doing a
00:18
show with them. And she's also
00:18
the founder of Women in
00:23
podcasting, which is a
00:23
networking group, and podcast,
00:27
du Nord. And that is a podcast
00:27
conference that teaches people
00:31
how to podcast how to start how
00:31
to grow anything people need. So
00:35
Twyla, thank you so much for
00:35
being here.
00:37  Twila
You're very welcome.
00:37
Thank you for having me. And
00:39
thank you for being patient.
00:39
Because of course, I'm, I'm
00:42
quite the technologist when it
00:42
comes to recording things.
00:47  Alban
Well, you did perfect
00:47
getting on and then the computer
00:49
decided to throw a wrench into
00:49
everything. So I appreciate you
00:53
working through it. And being
00:53
here with no problem. I'm
00:56  Twila
happy to do it.
00:57  Alban
So can you tell me the
00:57
story of how you got your first
01:00
job in radio, because you have a
01:00
background in radio before
01:02
podcast
01:03  Twila
I do. And I have the kind
01:03
of a story that makes people you
01:07
know, either go That's wild, or
01:07
they just want to punch you
01:10
because it doesn't sound like
01:10
work. So to be perfectly honest,
01:15
I was a stay at home mom for 12
01:15
years. And my kids were getting
01:18
old enough to go back out in the
01:18
world. And I was at you know,
01:22
like a breakfast get together
01:22
with a bunch of moms and women
01:26
friends. And I made a joke at
01:26
this table. And I said, I'm so
01:30
glad I know all these
01:30
professional women, because I
01:32
mean, the only thing I'm good at
01:32
is Talking and Nobody pays me to
01:35
do that. And we laugh. And
01:35
everybody left. And a couple of
01:39
weeks later, a very good friend
01:39
of mine, one of my closest
01:41
friends who was at the function
01:41
called me. And she said, you
01:45
know, you made the joke, you
01:45
know, at breakfast. And the
01:48
thing is, she's a radio host. So
01:48
immediately when she brought up
01:53
the joke, I thought I had
01:53
offended her. And I was like,
01:56
Oh, I'm so sorry. And she was
01:56
like, No, I don't I don't she
02:01
cuz she literally said I didn't
02:01
think it was funny. And I was
02:04
like, Oh crap, I'm so sorry. And
02:04
then she goes, No, I mean, I
02:07
don't think it's funny, because
02:07
I think you'd be really good at
02:09
this. I think you should meet my
02:09
boss. And she introduced me to
02:13
the program director at a talk
02:13
radio station. And it happened
02:18
that the exact time that I was
02:18
introduced, the station was
02:22
going through a format change.
02:22
And they were becoming they were
02:25
on their way to becoming the
02:25
first and only pop culture talk
02:29
radio station in the country.
02:29
And so the program director
02:33
said, like we're changing
02:33
formats, we're just focusing on
02:37
pop culture. What I mean, what
02:37
could you possibly add to that
02:41
conversation? And I happened to
02:41
be, you know, like a mom,
02:44
blogger at the time. And I had a
02:44
blog that was called Pop Culture
02:49
parent that talked about the
02:49
annex of parenting a pop
02:51
culture. And I brought that up,
02:51
and, and she kind of, you know,
02:56
kind of asked me a couple more
02:56
questions. And I would say for
02:58
the next seven months, we kind
02:58
of went back and forth, he would
03:01
bring me in to just kind of sit
03:01
and talk to people and come
03:04
bring him in and ask me
03:04
questions, but nothing came of
03:06
it. And then quite almost seven
03:06
months to the day. She brought
03:12
me in to it for a meeting, there
03:12
was another woman sitting in the
03:14
chair next to me. And she sat
03:14
down. I said, Okay, so the show
03:18
starts in two weeks, and it
03:18
doesn't have a title. And if you
03:20
want to give it a title, here's
03:20
the format, you're going to get
03:22
two hours of Saturday mornings.
03:22
And we looked each other like we
03:25
were create, like what's
03:25
happening and she goes I'm
03:27
sorry, Twyla, this is Olivia,
03:27
Olivia, this is Twilight, you're
03:29
going to host a show together.
03:29
And that was my and that's my
03:33
first job in radio. Two weeks
03:33
later, I was on the air, I came
03:35
up with the show name, we came
03:35
up with a format. And we were
03:39
off to the races. And I've been
03:39
doing media ever since
03:42  Alban
what was the first show
03:42
may have pop life.
03:45  Twila
And it was just that's my
03:45
job was quite literally to talk
03:50
on an endless loop about Bieber
03:50
and the Kardashians and whatever
03:54
else is going on in pop culture
03:54
at the time.
03:56  Alban
That's, like so many
03:56
people's dream that the thing
04:00
that you're already doing that
04:00
you're already your personality,
04:04
is that you like to talk and you
04:04
love pop culture, right? And
04:07
then you throw something out to
04:07
the world. And all of a sudden,
04:10
it's like, hey, why don't you do
04:10
all the things you already
04:12
doing? Except we pay for it. And
04:12
we give you a microphone.
04:15  Twila
Listen, when I tell you,
04:15
I called my mom to tell her like
04:18
like this. This is a job and my
04:18
mom was like, that doesn't sound
04:21
like a real job. And she said
04:21
baby, if you go to that
04:25
interview, and it's like in a
04:25
warehouse or something, please
04:27
don't go in there. It's not a
04:27
real job. I was like, I promise
04:30
mom if I get there and it's a
04:30
warehouse. But even I mean until
04:35
this day, I mean my the friend
04:35
who introduced me her name is
04:37
Alexis Thompson. And to this
04:37
day, she's tries her really hard
04:41
not to take any credit for any
04:41
of this and I'm like you have no
04:44
idea that you change the
04:44
trajectory of my life. So
04:46
anytime I get a chance to tell
04:46
people I wouldn't have any of
04:49
this. If you hadn't seen
04:49
something in me I didn't see in
04:52
myself. So I make a point to say
04:52
her first and last name whenever
04:56
I can. And I'm always trying to
04:56
look For opportunities for her
05:01
to like to to help boost her and
05:01
help, you know, help her get
05:03
where she's trying to go to
05:03
because this was a gift, it was
05:06
a it was an absolute gift that
05:06
she gave me.
05:08  Alban
So this is actually
05:08
something I've seen in a lot of
05:10
your work will need to go and
05:10
actually talk about each of
05:13
these pieces individually. But
05:13
one thing I keep seeing come up
05:16
for you is networking. And now
05:16
that maybe that story is kind of
05:21
answering the question, which is
05:21
like, why is networking so
05:24
important to you? Because you're
05:24
starting community groups,
05:27
you're starting events, you're
05:27
doing your own digital media,
05:31
but it's all about like finding
05:31
communities and networking in
05:35
them. Why is that really
05:35
important to you?
05:38  Twila
I mean, there's a couple
05:38
of reasons. One is exactly what
05:41
I was expressing, I wouldn't
05:41
have had any of this, if someone
05:44
hadn't seen something in me, I
05:44
didn't see myself. And even
05:48
along the way, I was so
05:48
fortunate to have people who
05:52
cared enough that when I said I
05:52
needed help, or when I couldn't
05:55
figure something out, they just
05:55
stepped right in to help me I
05:57
mean, that generosity of spirit
05:57
isn't something that I take
06:01
lightly. And I always feel like
06:01
the best thing that I can do, to
06:04
show gratitude is to pay it
06:04
forward. Yeah, I could buy you a
06:07
lunch for helping set up my
06:07
equipment. But it means even
06:09
more if the energy you put into
06:09
me, I made sure I put into
06:13
somebody else. So somebody else
06:13
can get here too. And the
06:16
extension of that in terms of
06:16
like the growth of where the
06:18
business is going and things
06:18
like women in podcasting. It's a
06:23
funny thing, when you start
06:23
something like this, and you
06:25
realize there's a moment you
06:25
realize it's bigger than you.
06:29
Like I could have easily made
06:29
this, like, I just want this to
06:31
be about Thailand, it's gonna be
06:31
like the toilet network and
06:34
Twyla show. I mean, it could be
06:34
really easy to have it centered
06:36
on you. But I never wanted that
06:36
I always wanted there to be
06:40
like, how can more people be
06:40
doing this, like, the more I
06:43
found out that I wait, I found
06:43
something I love to do, I found
06:45
something I'm good at, I found
06:45
that I have a talent for it.
06:49
Other people have to have this
06:49
to other people need the same
06:52
kind of opportunity I need to.
06:52
And so that that kind of
06:55
converged at the same time that
06:55
I realized that this is this is
06:58
not just about me, it's bigger
06:58
than me. I used to be worried
07:01
that I was too centered in this,
07:01
that it was too focused on me.
07:06
But now I understand I'm not the
07:06
center of anything. I'm the
07:08
conduit. And now my job is to
07:08
get as many people connected as
07:12
possible, whether that's
07:12
connected people who want to
07:14
work together, connecting
07:14
friends, connecting talent, you
07:19
know, building out shows
07:19
building out, you know, learning
07:22
so that people can go do what
07:22
we're doing. I don't I just
07:25
don't believe in scarcity. I
07:25
don't think there's only room
07:27
for one of us. I think there's
07:27
room for everybody. And the way
07:31
we make room is to make sure
07:31
everybody has the tools and
07:34
everybody has what they need to
07:34
move forward.
07:37  Alban
Yeah, that's actually a
07:37
lot of the philosophy we've had
07:39
with Buzzsprout a lot of our
07:39
marketing is just educating
07:42
people on podcasting. Because,
07:42
you know, when I started in the
07:46
industry in 2014, I think
07:46
there's something like 60,000
07:50
podcasts, and people were like
07:50
on, there's already too many
07:53
shows. Now we have like 2.5
07:53
million podcasts that were deaf
07:57
people are going oh, there's too
07:57
many shows. Like, I actually
08:00
think there's not enough good
08:00
shows yet, I think we have a lot
08:04
of space to keep growing. And
08:04
what we need to do is
08:07
continuously remove the barriers
08:07
to entry, the you don't have to
08:13
have a lot of money for
08:13
equipment, or you don't need to
08:16
have a specialized editor doing
08:16
all the work for you. Or you
08:19
don't have to get lucky and have
08:19
someone notice your talent, but
08:22
instead, maybe democratizing
08:22
opening the, you know, the doors
08:26
so that anybody who wants to
08:26
start a show or kind of get
08:31
their voice or their message out
08:31
to the world is able to do so.
08:34  Twila
I agree with that
08:34
wholeheartedly.
08:36  Alban
So take me back, you
08:36
know, you start the first show
08:39
with Minnesota Public Radio,
08:39
where do you go from there?
08:43  Twila
So, okay, so the first so
08:43
technically the first show that
08:47
I had my radio show wasn't it
08:47
was with Hubbard broadcasting.
08:50
So yeah, so it's the station, it
08:50
still exists, it's called my
08:54
talk. And so I was there for
08:54
like, for almost four years. And
09:00
I honestly loved all of it. I
09:00
love learning, I loved getting
09:03
like the thing about radio,
09:03
especially the thing about like
09:06
large scale media is, if they
09:06
don't really have a role for
09:10
you, if they don't see you as a
09:10
part of their vision, you're
09:12
fine to hang around, they're
09:12
just not going to invest very
09:15
much in you. And so it wasn't
09:15
even personal. It wasn't like
09:17
oh, they're being
09:17
discriminatory. It's just they
09:19
were being you know, they had
09:19
tunnel vision on this is the
09:22
kind of person they saw on the
09:22
host chair. This is the kind of
09:24
person they saw that saw as a
09:24
producer. This is the kind of
09:26
person they saw as, you know,
09:26
something to build around. And I
09:29
just wasn't one of those people.
09:29
But I was there and I was a good
09:32
you know, utility player. But
09:32
the beauty of it is you kind of
09:36
when no one's paying attention
09:36
to you, you can kind of just
09:38
roam around and do what you want
09:38
to do in terms of that. So I
09:42
always had lots of time to go
09:42
ask like the old guys at ESPN,
09:46
you know, 1500 like how does the
09:46
how does this equipment worker?
09:50
How did you guys do this back in
09:50
the day and then I could hang
09:52
out and ask my producer like
09:52
Hey, what are those buttons do I
09:55
won't touch anything but how do
09:55
you do that? You know and even
09:59
like I was I was essentially a
09:59
producer from day one on my
10:02
show. And I didn't know, like I
10:02
had, I had an aptitude for it, I
10:07
just didn't know how to rein it
10:07
in. So we would have a two hour
10:09
show every weekend, the max
10:09
number of stories on a two hour
10:13
show. Because you have, like,
10:13
415 minute, you know,
10:18
increments, you know, and then
10:18
over two hours, the max number
10:21
of shows if you're doing like,
10:21
three per, you know, three per,
10:26
you know, opportunities, like 24
10:26
shows. So that made 24 stories
10:30
over the course of two hours, I
10:30
would come prepared with, like,
10:33
75 shows every weekend. I mean,
10:33
75, like, talking points every
10:38
weekend, I'd be like, we could
10:38
do these 75 stories. And I
10:41
exhausted everybody, like my co
10:41
host was like, Girl, no, the
10:44
producer would be like, we're
10:44
not gonna do all this, just just
10:47
choose, just figure this out.
10:47
And we had gotten assigned an
10:51
older gentleman who was like a
10:51
producer. And he was kind of
10:54
like, you know, like, old people
10:54
love to, to older people love to
10:57
tell you what they're good at.
10:57
And they love to talk about
10:59
their work. And I was like, I
10:59
don't want to be bad at this.
11:02
And he was like, Okay, well,
11:02
they don't. And I was like, why
11:05
don't really know how not to be
11:05
bad at it. And he was like,
11:07
well, you want to break down the
11:07
show. So I would do two hours
11:09
live every Saturday. And then on
11:09
Sunday, I would call him and
11:11
break down the show minute by
11:11
minute. And he would tell me,
11:15
you took too long to get into
11:15
the show like 30 seconds in you
11:19
got to get to content, you can't
11:19
be talking about the web for two
11:22
minutes. Or if we did an
11:22
interview like some sometimes we
11:25
get an actual interview because
11:25
we were we didn't know etiquette
11:27
or rules. So we would just like
11:27
we wouldn't even DM people we
11:31
would be on Twitter, like
11:31
outwardly saying you should come
11:33
be on our show like ridiculous
11:33
humans. And it was sometimes it
11:36
would work. And you know, and
11:36
then we would get
11:39
discombobulated. Like I don't
11:39
know how to handle talking to a
11:42
famous person. And he'd be like,
11:42
just act like you've been there
11:44
before. They're here because
11:44
they need you not because, you
11:46
know, it's it's a mutual
11:46
exchange. You know, and then
11:50
like even learning simple
11:50
things, like giving the audience
11:52
a job, like never open the phone
11:52
lines on a live radio show until
11:56
the audience call and tell me
11:56
what you think. Because
11:58
everybody's like, it's my time
11:58
to shine. You got to give them a
12:01
job, it's red or blue, it's dog
12:01
or cat? It's yes or no, right?
12:06
Give them a purpose and let them
12:06
stick to the purpose. And so as
12:09
I started to learn that, I was
12:09
able to apply that to the skill
12:13
set, I already had this
12:13
organizational skill set and
12:16
this ability to kind of tell
12:16
what is a good story and how to,
12:19
you know, what's a good angle on
12:19
a story? And then I just really
12:23
listened. You know, I would you
12:23
know, when they sales would have
12:26
a meeting and they say, you
12:26
know, anybody when comes to
12:28
sales meeting, I'll come the
12:28
sales meeting, you know, does
12:30
anybody want to, you know, show
12:30
up? And do you know, like, we're
12:34
doing a remote recording here.
12:34
Okay, I'll, my friends are going
12:37
to be there. I'll go. And I
12:37
wouldn't just go to support my
12:39
friends and be I'm happy to be
12:39
there. But I'd be watching like,
12:42
how did you set up the
12:42
equipment? How did you set up
12:43
the booth? How did you? What are
12:43
you doing? And I just kept
12:47
learning. So by the time I hit
12:47
four years, and I knew I wasn't
12:50
really going anywhere else,
12:50
there wasn't anywhere else for
12:52
me to go. It kind of converged
12:52
with i It was time for me to
12:56
leave. And at the same time,
12:56
they were starting to format
12:59
change, they were skewing
12:59
younger and younger, which is
13:02
what media does. It just wants
13:02
younger, faster, newer, you
13:05
know, they think Young Money is
13:05
always better than older money.
13:07
And I just knew that wasn't
13:07
true. The core demo at the time
13:11
was my demo, middle age women,
13:11
you know, we we feel good about
13:16
ourselves. We have we're living
13:16
a good life, we've got
13:18
disposable income, but people
13:18
don't seem to recognize that
13:21
around us. And I just it just
13:21
started to really sit and take a
13:25
hold of my gut like we could
13:25
something like this should exist
13:29
for us. We shouldn't just keep
13:29
getting ignored or pushed aside
13:32
or told we're not relevant
13:32
anymore. And probably the last
13:36
year I was at the station, I was
13:36
sort of complaining to everybody
13:40
that you know, like it didn't it
13:40
didn't start out that way. It
13:43
was like, let's have a
13:43
conversation. And now I'm
13:44
ranting about what women
13:44
deserve.
13:48
And finally, I happened to rant
13:48
one night in front of a
13:51
gentleman who was who we were
13:51
working with. And after I
13:56
finished I was like, I'm sorry.
13:56
I'll get off the soapbox. And he
13:57
goes, No, I think that's a
13:57
fantastic idea. And if you're
14:00
serious about doing it, I'd
14:00
invest in it. And you know, and
14:04
I went seriously. And he's like,
14:04
Yeah, and I went home that night
14:08
and tried to prove he does not
14:08
need to give me a dime. I
14:11
literally went home and tried to
14:11
disprove it. I went to Google
14:13
and I typed in women's Podcast
14:13
Network. And this was 2016.
14:17
Nothing came up. Google never
14:17
comes up blank. It came up
14:19
blank. And then I went, Oh,
14:19
crap. Like if I was like, what
14:24
would I even call it? And I was
14:24
like, Oh, well, I mean, I like
14:26
to boss everybody around. I call
14:26
it matriarch. And I type that in
14:29
there. And matriarch had a
14:29
trademark for a restaurant in DC
14:33
that was closed and like a
14:33
public relations firm in South
14:36
Africa. And I was like, okay, it
14:36
can't, it can't just be
14:39
matriarch. That doesn't make
14:39
sense. And it doesn't sound like
14:42
it's like, it doesn't sound like
14:42
it's cool enough or whatever.
14:45
Let me fix it. And so I played
14:45
around and came up with major
14:48
digital media. Nothing existed.
14:48
The domains were available, the
14:53
socials were available. The
14:53
trademark was available all it
14:56
just felt like it was a sign and
14:56
I went back to him then next day
15:00
and said, if you're serious, I'm
15:00
serious, we'll sit down and iron
15:04
this out. And and he came on as
15:04
a silent partner, it took, I
15:07
think about seven months, it
15:07
took seven months to negotiate
15:09
that deal. And he's still a
15:09
silent partner to this day. And
15:12
he's been instrumental in
15:12
helping us grow the business in
15:15
terms of being an advisor, and,
15:15
you know, a person and emissary
15:18
who will introduce us to people
15:18
when we need to on occasion, but
15:22
but he's been wonderful in the
15:22
idea of understanding this is my
15:26
vision, and this is I know how
15:26
to execute it, and is always
15:30
just sort of proudly been in the
15:30
background going, I trust you,
15:33
just where you know, you keep
15:33
moving forward, it's going fine.
15:37
And every once in a while, as a
15:37
business, as someone who's been
15:40
in business, he'll pull me aside
15:40
and go, Okay, so we got to think
15:42
about like, tax implications, or
15:42
we got to, you know, like small
15:45
things that I didn't know, as an
15:45
entrepreneur, but he was really
15:48
helpful, you know, and helping
15:48
me get my sea legs under me. And
15:52
that gave me the confidence to
15:52
pursue the business info. Now,
15:56
I'll be really honest, I didn't
15:56
even know what to ask for, to
15:59
start when we started the
15:59
business, so I didn't even ask
16:01
for enough to pay myself, I
16:01
really just asked her enough to
16:03
buy equipment, which is nutty.
16:03
But I didn't know any better. I
16:06
just knew if I could get the
16:06
equipment, and I could, I had
16:10
all these people I knew I could,
16:10
it would be great. If I could
16:13
just get the the resources
16:13
around us, we could go make
16:15
things. And I mean, we did we we
16:15
shot out the box and started
16:19
making shows. We secured our
16:19
first sponsorships within the
16:23
first six months of the deal.
16:23
And we've been we've really been
16:27
rolling ever since.
16:28  Alban
I love this lesson that
16:28
now I've seen in both of these
16:31
stories that it's very easy for
16:31
us to like water down our vision
16:37
because we don't want people to
16:37
hear like, here's what I want to
16:40
be doing with my life. And a lot
16:40
of people go Yeah, I don't think
16:43
that's a good idea. You should
16:43
do like a boring, normal thing.
16:46
And twice, you've got stories of
16:46
you kind of just said like,
16:51
here's what I'd like to be
16:51
doing. And a bunch of times we
16:54
went okay, I don't care. And
16:54
then you hit two people who lead
16:59
Oh, you want to be talking and
16:59
and people to listen to you
17:02
about pop culture? Yeah,
17:02
actually, that's a job and I
17:04
could hook you up with the
17:04
person who could do it. And
17:06
somebody else goes, Oh, you have
17:06
this passion for elevating
17:10
women? Well, actually, I would
17:10
invest in that company. So I
17:14
love like just being unabashedly
17:14
you and saying what you want,
17:18
has actually led to both of
17:18
those kind of coming to
17:20
fruition? Well, I'll
17:21  Twila
be honest, it didn't.
17:21
It's not my default setting it
17:25
to you know, to just go okay,
17:25
I'm going to proceed something I
17:28
say all the time. And I say it
17:28
with absolutely no apology
17:31
whatsoever that the only reason
17:31
I could do any of this is
17:34
because I became a stay at home
17:34
mom. And the level of freedom
17:39
and fearlessness that came from
17:39
being a parent translates to
17:42
everything I do now in my life.
17:42
Like I used to care deeply what
17:45
other people thought and how I
17:45
conducted myself in the world
17:49
and what people thought of
17:49
status. And when you stay at
17:51
home with kids, the the X the
17:51
muscles you exercise and use as
17:56
a parent, especially in that
17:56
vacuum of like stay at home mom
18:00
parenting or stay at home
18:00
parenting. It's just if you if
18:05
you embrace it, you're you'll
18:05
never find another freedom like,
18:10
and now I'm just refused to let
18:10
any other part of my life not
18:13
live at that level. Right? Like
18:13
I actually like I tell people
18:16
all the time, you can't say
18:16
anything to me. I made humans
18:19
like I made them. I actually
18:19
created actual humans, and
18:24
they're and I'm helping them
18:24
become like the kind of people
18:27
in the world that I hope can
18:27
carry the torch for all of us
18:31
and take care of all of us and
18:31
the mistakes that we make
18:33
they're good people. And knowing
18:33
that and knowing if any part of
18:37
that, you know, is it just gives
18:37
you an limited confidence and
18:43
unlimited. This unlimited
18:43
ability to look at things to go
18:46
you know what this, this isn't
18:46
that hard was I already knew
18:50
what's the worst that can happen
18:50
in the radio job, I get fired.
18:53
You know, how many times I've
18:53
been fired? Who cares? You know,
18:56
and even when you know, the
18:56
money when when we got the
19:00
investment money, it was, you
19:00
know, yeah, I think it was
19:02
afraid to ask for more than
19:02
that, because I just didn't
19:03
understand and wasn't
19:03
comfortable with the, you know,
19:06
as an entrepreneur with what
19:06
that meant. I didn't even call
19:08
myself an entrepreneur at first.
19:08
But I was brave enough to go.
19:12
But if you give me something,
19:12
I'm going to make it work. I'm
19:15
going to I'm going to use it to
19:15
the nth degree, I'm going to
19:19
maximize those resources. I'm
19:19
going to maximize the people in
19:22
my life and the people that I
19:22
know would be great at this and
19:24
we're going to make something
19:24
fantastic together. Or we're
19:27
going to have this amazing story
19:27
to tell about the time we flamed
19:29
out when we try to start a
19:29
business. Like I'm not like I'm
19:32
just unafraid to pick myself
19:32
back up if things go wrong now.
19:35  Alban
So I want to jump into
19:35
some of the shows you're making
19:38
with matriarch digital media.
19:38
Can I kind of just name them and
19:43
then you tell us what they are?
19:43
Absolutely. Okay. So you just
19:47
kind of hinted at this one. So
19:47
I'm going to jump down to the
19:49
bottom. So fail.
19:51  Twila
Oh, so So fail so good is
19:51
one of the super proud of the
19:54
show. So it's the idea of it is
19:54
we don't talk about failure and
20:00
tough as it is like we just
20:00
don't talk about failure, we
20:02
like to skim past it. It's an
20:02
uncomfortable feeling. It's an
20:05
uncomfortable experience. But
20:05
particularly for women, when we
20:08
don't talk about failure, it's,
20:08
it's harmful to us, because we
20:12
will internalize it. And we
20:12
won't think we failed at
20:15
something, we'll think we are
20:15
failures at everything. And we
20:19
wanted to help do something to
20:19
take some of that away. So we
20:23
started to have a conversation.
20:23
Laura ruse is the host, and
20:27
she's amazing. And she had a
20:27
business, and that she started
20:30
years ago, and it failed, like
20:30
spectacularly failed. And it
20:34
took her a long time to get
20:34
brave enough to try again. But
20:36
she did get to that point where
20:36
she wanted to try again, and she
20:40
wanted to help other women not
20:40
have that same sort of length of
20:44
time in between something went
20:44
wrong, and you pick yourself
20:47
back up. So we just started to
20:47
have a conversation, we went
20:50
around, and we found these
20:50
amazing women who had done all
20:52
kinds of things. I mean, when we
20:52
started this as an idea, we
20:55
thought, nobody's gonna want to
20:55
talk to us about how they fail,
20:57
they're just gonna want to talk
20:57
to us about, you know, like how
21:00
they, they're gonna want to talk
21:00
about it, like it's a footnote
21:02
in their lives. But instead,
21:02
every single woman was really
21:06
willing to get into it with us,
21:06
like, I failed, it hurt, it felt
21:10
like this, it was hard to get
21:10
past it, it was, this was all
21:13
the stuff that was sort of tied
21:13
into it. And it brought up other
21:17
things I didn't think about, and
21:17
then eventually, I was able to
21:20
work through it. And now I'm on
21:20
the other side, I'm working my
21:22
way to the other side. And I'm
21:22
so proud of how it turned out. I
21:26
mean, we had conversations with,
21:26
you know, with remarkable women,
21:29
like women who had national
21:29
syndicated talk shows, and the
21:32
talk shows, you know, went away,
21:32
we talked to a woman who was an
21:36
Emmy winning writer on Mad Men
21:36
who at one point, her career had
21:40
her career had derailed so
21:40
significantly, that she and her
21:43
husband had to move in with his
21:43
mom to make ends meet. And this
21:47
is only a couple years, like
21:47
before she got, you know, a few
21:50
years before she got mad men,
21:50
you know, but hearing their
21:53
stories, it just reminds you of
21:53
two things. One, we all fail at
21:56
something. We all sometimes it's
21:56
not as bright or spectacular,
21:59
but it feels like it is it when
21:59
you fail at something, even the
22:03
smallest thing it feels like
22:03
it's everything. But you can
22:06
actually, it's actually okay.
22:06
And you actually can learn from
22:10
it. And you can actually benefit
22:10
from it. And you can actually
22:12
move on and find the level of
22:12
success that you want for
22:17
yourself through it. But you
22:17
can't do that unless you
22:20
actually go through the failure.
22:20
You can't just pretend like it
22:23
doesn't exist or just push it
22:23
off. Because it'll just hold you
22:25
hostage.
22:28  Alban
Yeah, that's awesome. I
22:28
love sometimes people talk about
22:31
failure is like, you're just
22:31
discovering something that
22:33
doesn't work right now. It all
22:33
day. There's so many things that
22:37
can work, but we don't know
22:37
which they will be until we
22:40
start trying. And then we will
22:40
go okay, that's one of the
22:44
things that doesn't work. No big
22:44
deal. Me being a lawyer was one
22:47
of the things that didn't work.
22:47
Me being a teacher, it was one
22:49
of things that didn't work, I
22:49
had to keep trying different
22:52
things until one popped up that
22:52
went Oh, actually, I'm pretty
22:56
good. This marketing thing. This
22:56
is where mistake
22:58  Twila
Well, my kids, one of my
22:58
kids favorite teachers that they
23:00
had used to always tell the kids
23:00
in class who's an elementary
23:03
teacher, that failing is okay.
23:03
Because it's an opportunity to
23:08
learn what you didn't know
23:08
before. And I was always like,
23:12
that's, that's such a good way
23:12
of putting it because my kids
23:15
would come home and they would
23:15
feel bad about something and I
23:17
just be like, go get them kiddo.
23:17
Like I wouldn't understand how
23:20
to like how to give it context
23:20
and room to you know, to grow.
23:25
But she did. She just always did
23:25
that beautifully. So I and I
23:28
love that we get to do that with
23:28
our show where we're almost
23:30
finished with the second season.
23:30
And a lot of the failure stories
23:34
we're talking about this time
23:34
are directly tied to you know,
23:36
things that happened to people
23:36
during COVID and how it impacted
23:39
their businesses or how they had
23:39
to completely shift gears or how
23:42
they just lost things. But the
23:42
women are so beautifully
23:45
resilient. And so, you know,
23:45
just they you know, they're not
23:50
saying they're not Pollyanna
23:50
about it at all. It's not like,
23:53
oh, I came on the other side.
23:53
It's like, this is tough, and
23:55
sometimes it sucks. But I'm
23:55
still here. And I think
23:58
sometimes that's the most
23:58
important thing is to be able to
24:00
plant your feet in the ground to
24:00
go I'm still here, even the
24:03
middle of it. Yeah, that's
24:04  Alban
an incredible message. So
24:04
let's jump into some of these
24:06
other we've got six more shows,
24:06
right? Yeah, there's
24:09  Twila
six. There's six right
24:09
now there's two there's still
24:11
two more coming that haven't
24:11
been released to the public yet.
24:14
So So endocast. So the endocast
24:14
to talk about the endocast. We
24:18
actually need to jump back and
24:18
talk about the guy No cast. So
24:21
the guy No casts are certainly
24:21
gonna It's our flagship show. It
24:25
was the first show that we made
24:25
at matriarch. It is a show that
24:29
focuses on women's emotional and
24:29
physical health and well being.
24:33
I'm sort of the voice of the
24:33
audience, and the voice of like
24:36
the patient. And Dr. Eric
24:36
keyguard is a 25 year veteran,
24:41
OBGYN and pain specialist. And
24:41
so we talk about anything that
24:45
had to do with gynecology. We
24:45
just wanted to demystify two
24:49
things. We wanted to demystify
24:49
some of what makes you afraid to
24:52
go to a doctor and talk candidly
24:52
and openly with your doctor. But
24:56
we also really wanted to teach
24:56
women to be advocates for their
24:58
own health. Really Understanding
24:58
that doctors work for you,
25:02
you're not you know, you're not,
25:02
you're not there to serve them,
25:05
they're there to serve you. And
25:05
if you're, that's customer
25:08
service, if you have a doctor
25:08
that makes you feel less than
25:11
makes you feel bad or guilty for
25:11
any part of your health and
25:15
health journey, let them go,
25:15
they can be fired, you can
25:18
replace them, you can find
25:18
someone better to serve your
25:21
needs. And we talk a lot about
25:21
that. And in the course of doing
25:25
that show, Eric has a very
25:25
particular focus and passion for
25:28
helping women with
25:28
endometriosis, which is far
25:32
oftentimes, under diagnosed.
25:32
Even more often treated like it
25:38
takes it takes like eight to 10
25:38
average steps of really invasive
25:42
treatment before you figure out
25:42
that we were wrong about this.
25:44
It's actually Endo. I mean,
25:44
women who would go through
25:47
multiple surgeries, or years and
25:47
years and years of pain and
25:51
being told oh, that's just how
25:51
periods are. Oh, that's just
25:54
that's just how it is. And it
25:54
really isn't. It's
25:56
endometriosis. Even doctors who
25:56
practice don't always know how
26:01
to identify Endo. So we wind up
26:01
doing spin off podcast based on
26:04
the work that he does, called
26:04
the endo cast, and Eric is on
26:07
it. And we have another host who
26:07
is an advocate, a tireless
26:11
advocate, her name is Britt four
26:11
and she's uh, she has
26:15
endometriosis herself. And she's
26:15
not just an advocate for
26:17
herself. And for women. She's an
26:17
advocate for people who have
26:20
periods because not every person
26:20
who has a period is a woman. And
26:24
so we really talk about, you
26:24
know, pain management and
26:27
understanding how to get
26:27
treatment and understanding the
26:29
psychological and the impact on
26:29
relationships that endo can have
26:34
on a person. There's a whole
26:34
life, you live as a person with
26:36
endometriosis, and we want to
26:36
make sure that we're helping you
26:39
address all of those areas. So
26:39
I'm really, really proud of both
26:43
of those shows, but I'm
26:43
incredibly proud of what we've
26:44
been able to do so far with
26:44
endocast?
26:48  Alban
Yeah, that's incredible.
26:48
I think there's so many shows
26:51
that we've seen come up,
26:51
especially shows that center on
26:57
a specific diagnosis, or a
26:57
chronic health condition, a lot,
27:03
we've also seen about specific
27:03
cancers that are really, really
27:08
valuable, because sometimes when
27:08
you're going through something,
27:11
especially if it's like a rare
27:11
disease, and I'll send you get
27:14
this diagnosis, and you go,
27:14
Okay, well, this is
27:17
overwhelming, and then you're
27:17
going well, now, how am I going
27:20
to deal with it? There's a lot
27:20
of people who have started
27:23
podcasts around, hey, this, my
27:23
child died of this very specific
27:28
heart condition. And so now I'm
27:28
talking about this heart
27:31
condition. So if anybody else is
27:31
going through it, they kind of
27:35
have this built in community
27:35
through a podcast where they
27:37
could be, meet and connect, you
27:37
know, digitally with people who
27:42
are going through something
27:42
similar. So it's a
27:45  Twila
really, it's one of the
27:45
main focuses of why we do what
27:47
we do with our shows. We know
27:47
that a lot of what we talk about
27:50
around women is vulnerable. We
27:50
don't have free and open spaces,
27:53
just discuss it. societally.
27:53
We've been taught not to focus
27:57
on certain things that we should
27:57
have shame or embarrassment
27:59
around it. And the podcast gives
27:59
you this really unique
28:02
opportunity to be vulnerable in
28:02
a safe way, in a way that you
28:06
feel comfortable engaging,
28:06
nobody has to know that you're
28:08
listening to something about
28:08
this, no one has to know it's
28:11
not like when used to read a
28:11
bodice Ripper on the bus and you
28:13
could see I'm reading a romance.
28:13
You can go look up something
28:17
that's deeply personal to you
28:17
that you need information about
28:20
that you're afraid. You know,
28:20
you might be struggling or on
28:24
your own with it and that you
28:24
could find a resource and then
28:27
you can engage in that resource
28:27
where you feel most safe, most
28:29
comfortable to do it. We strive
28:29
to make sure everything that we
28:33
do helps support women and is an
28:33
provides ways for women to be
28:37
actionable with what they're
28:37
learning. Like if you're
28:40
listening to Doncaster endocast,
28:40
I want you to be able to be
28:43
empowered to go ask your doctor
28:43
questions, or go find a better
28:47
doctor, or advocate for yourself
28:47
in a you know, in terms of pain
28:53
management, or have that
28:53
difficult conversation with your
28:55
family about why you don't
28:55
always engage at the holidays,
28:58
because it takes too much energy
28:58
from you. You should not you
29:01
shouldn't just be able to have a
29:01
SCO like solidarity sister, we
29:04
get it. We also want you to be
29:04
able to have tools that you can
29:08
add, you know, to help, you
29:08
know, support yourself, because
29:12
everybody deserves that
29:12
everybody deserves to be able to
29:14
live the best life that they
29:14
can.
29:16  Alban
Yeah, absolutely. You
29:16
have another show called me
29:19
before mom.
29:20  Twila
Yes, I was actually just
29:20
texting with her a little bit
29:22
ago. So Bert is a host. She's a
29:22
very successful blogger. She's
29:28
been a mom, blogger for like,
29:28
almost 10 years now. And she has
29:32
a really specific passion for
29:32
people wanting people to
29:35
understand and particularly moms
29:35
to understand that you there was
29:38
a person that you were before
29:38
kids came along. Not everyone
29:41
has the experience with kids
29:41
that I had. I had a like my
29:45
brain just kind of clicked in it
29:45
was like up, I became the person
29:47
I was supposed to be when they
29:47
showed up. A lot of people were
29:50
fully formed fully baked, felt
29:50
really good about themselves,
29:53
and then they added kids and
29:53
they kind of lost touch with
29:55
themselves. She wants people to
29:55
get reconnected to that. And
29:59
sometimes that's understand
29:59
Adding how you're doing that
30:01
actively in your parenting,
30:01
sometimes that's understanding
30:03
how to take time away from your
30:03
kids. Sometimes that's
30:06
understanding what those
30:06
transitions look like, because
30:09
your kids really need you when
30:09
they're infants in a, you know,
30:12
it's life or death. But then
30:12
when they're, you know, six and
30:14
seven, and they're getting on
30:14
that bus to school, and they
30:16
don't want to hug you goodbye
30:16
anymore, they kind of want to,
30:19
you know, they need to put some
30:19
distance, or even when they
30:21
start to become teenagers, and
30:21
they really need some, you know,
30:24
physical and emotional distance
30:24
from you. It that's a tough
30:28
transition, all of those
30:28
transitions are tough. And Burt
30:31
talks about that she talks about
30:31
it in the everyday she talks
30:33
about it in the short term, and
30:33
in the long term. And
30:36
ultimately, she just wants you
30:36
to remember that you were a,
30:38
there was a person you were
30:38
before your kids came along, and
30:40
they you deserve to connect to
30:40
that and your kids deserve the
30:43
best version of you. And getting
30:43
back to that person will help
30:46
you be that best version.
30:48  Alban
When I was born 35 years
30:48
ago, since then, I think my mom
30:53
has always had at least one of
30:53
her five children living at
30:55
home. And so I often think about
30:55
when you and all five of us were
31:00
homeschooled for a good portion
31:00
of our schooling. And so I
31:04
think, you know, thought about
31:04
her when I was reading about
31:07
that podcast quite a bit about
31:07
all that we all know about her
31:10
before. We all started coming
31:10
around, and then how much we
31:15
have like dominated her
31:15
personality. Now as she's now
31:19
going back to reconnecting with
31:19
a lot of who she was before. All
31:25
the Brooke kids jumped into the
31:25
picture.
31:27  Twila
That's why and that's the
31:27
thing. That's it's that. I mean,
31:30
I even say, like the fact that
31:30
my business started at the point
31:33
at which it started. And my kids
31:33
were a little older. I had a
31:36
friend who's a mom who said, You
31:36
know what, you you timed that
31:39
perfectly. And I was like, I
31:39
don't understand she goes
31:42
because you're going to build
31:42
this business and get into the
31:45
trajectory of it. And it's going
31:45
to start to hit its stride right
31:48
as your kids start to leave. And
31:48
then you're not going to feel
31:51
unmoored because you're going to
31:51
have a part of yourself that was
31:54
invested in something instead of
31:54
just being invested in them
31:58
because they deserve the freedom
31:58
to detach. And you deserve the
32:01
freedom to have a sense of self
32:01
away from them. And she's
32:04
absolutely right. I mean, we're
32:04
six years into the business, my
32:06
son leaves for college next
32:06
week. And I have as emotional as
32:11
it is, I do have something that
32:11
I'm more to I do have something
32:14
that is mine that that is me
32:14
outside of being his mom of
32:19
being really proud of him and
32:19
being really proud of his
32:21
process. I have a process of my
32:21
own. And so when we sit we talk
32:24
about like where we're all going
32:24
next, I have somewhere to go
32:27
next to I'm not just sitting
32:27
here trying to figure out like
32:29
what's next for me. I know
32:29
what's next for me. I'm already
32:31
in it.
32:32  Alban
So let's run through
32:32
these other ones good about tons
32:34
of others questions they ask you
32:34
I don't want to read through all
32:37
the time.
32:38  Twila
I'll give you the
32:38
logline. The 32nd mess in the
32:41
kitchen I'm a mess. I'm a mess
32:41
in the kitchen is a food show
32:43
for anybody that wants to be
32:43
more comfortable in the kitchen
32:47
but are intimidated by the
32:47
kitchen. We don't want you to be
32:50
we want you to get in there and
32:50
try stuff. Our two hosts are
32:53
longtime associates of Andrew
32:53
Zimmern. One is his right hand
32:57
at Food works his company and
32:57
the other one hosted a podcast
33:00
with him for years called Go
33:00
fork yourself. And the Yeah, the
33:03
message is really simple. Get in
33:03
the kitchen and try things and
33:06
if it all goes wrong, that's
33:06
what frozen pizza is for.
33:09  Alban
Excellent. Molly may
33:09
plus.
33:11  Twila
Okay, so Molly Mae is
33:11
this wunderkind of human being I
33:15
met her at a plus size event. We
33:15
were doing an event for like
33:20
Instagram influencers who happen
33:20
to be plus size women. And
33:23
someone asked Molly, like just
33:23
an audience questions like I
33:27
don't how do you? How do you not
33:27
like, I don't understand how to
33:30
be confident like this, I don't
33:30
understand how to not to let the
33:32
world you know, make me feel bad
33:32
about being fat. And I didn't
33:36
even know Molly at this point. I
33:36
just we were just in the same
33:39
room. And she said, Hey, let me
33:39
answer that question. And I'll
33:42
you if you have to edit feel
33:42
free because it was a little
33:45
colorful. But she said, listen,
33:45
fuck them. You deserve to have
33:49
the best life possible in
33:49
whatever body you're in. And
33:52
don't let anybody else take that
33:52
away from you. And in that
33:55
moment, I said, I need to know
33:55
who she is. And I need to talk
33:57
to her right now. And a week
33:57
later, we had coffee. We talked
34:01
for three hours. And by the end
34:01
of three hours, I said, Listen,
34:04
I think you're great. And I
34:04
think we could make something
34:06
really exciting together. Let's
34:06
try. And that's what we do. And
34:09
she does this wonderful, joyous
34:09
podcast about her life and about
34:14
being plus sized and about
34:14
owning that and living in it.
34:17
And yes, there are difficulties.
34:17
And yes, she's really candid
34:19
about it. But she speaks about
34:19
her life and her love of clothes
34:22
and her love of design and her
34:22
love of everything with a place
34:26
of pure joy. And we don't allow
34:26
for people who don't look like
34:30
the traditional shape or size we
34:30
think, to have that experience.
34:35
We always want to shame them for
34:35
that experience. And Molly
34:37
refuses to be shamed for it and
34:37
it makes her better and it makes
34:40
everybody else around her better
34:40
for it. Well, that's incredible.
34:42
And I love her dearly. She's one
34:42
of my favorite humans.
34:45  Alban
So last show this at
34:45
least out now Twyla and Natalie.
34:50  Twila
Yeah, so that's So
34:50
Natalie when I told the radio
34:53
story, Natalie was my second
34:53
radio partner. We had a show at
34:57
my talk and we talked about
34:57
gossip But that was not the fun
35:01
part. For us. Our favorite part
35:01
of our show was the hour before
35:04
the show, where we would
35:04
actually talk about ourselves in
35:07
our lives and the messiness. And
35:07
so when when the network started
35:11
to come together, I called her
35:11
and I said, Okay, I got a crazy
35:13
idea. You know, that like our
35:13
that we would spend like
35:15
gossiping before the show? And
35:15
she goes, Yeah, so what if we
35:18
turned that into a podcast? And
35:18
she was like, I'm so in. And so
35:24
we really just talk about the
35:24
experience of being a grown
35:26
woman like all the trials and
35:26
tribulations we ask a question
35:30
that, you know, that's kind of
35:30
bugging us. We talk about our
35:32
experiences around it. And then
35:32
we hopefully, hopefully, it'll
35:35
give you as the as an audience.
35:35
You know, some solidarity, and
35:38
maybe even some practical like,
35:38
you can go out in the world,
35:41
like, our very first episode
35:41
was, are we having a midlife
35:44
crisis? Because we both got,
35:44
like, 40 year old tattoos, just
35:49
out of nowhere. And we were both
35:49
like, everybody around us thinks
35:52
we're crazy. Let's talk it out.
35:52
And so and that's what we do
35:54
every single week. And why do I
35:54
bring my experience to the
35:56
table, and Natalie brings her
35:56
experience to the table, but she
36:00
even has a unique layer under
36:00
her experience, and that she
36:02
grew up in the Church of
36:02
Scientology, and was managed to
36:06
get out of the church and bring
36:06
her whole family with her. And
36:09
when I tell you that she is the
36:09
embodiment of somebody who is
36:12
joy, she says all the time, the
36:12
church tried to take my joy,
36:16
they can't have another ounce of
36:16
it. And she's also like, I would
36:20
say, arguably, like seven years
36:20
ahead of her journey as a parent
36:23
and you know, as a grown woman
36:23
than I am. And so sometimes I
36:26
think I'm the wise sage, and I
36:26
know things and then sometimes I
36:29
hit a wall on something. And I'm
36:29
like, Okay, wait, you've got
36:31
older kids. So does this workout
36:31
like this is really workout? And
36:36
you know, and we're just very,
36:36
we have a great camaraderie. And
36:40
it translates, I hope it
36:40
translates really well to the
36:42
podcast.
36:43  Alban
Well, do you want to give
36:43
us a sneak peek at what else you
36:45
have coming? Because you say you
36:45
have two more? Yeah,
36:47  Twila
we do. So we have a show
36:47
that's going to be starting soon
36:50
called Blink cuts. And it's
36:50
really just a blunt conversation
36:53
about womanhood and being a
36:53
woman and the experience of it.
36:56
And the host, Christine is a
36:56
Christina is just like great in
37:01
terms of, she's really, she has
37:01
this uncanny ability to talk
37:05
about life experience, not just
37:05
centered on from her
37:08
perspective, but in a way that
37:08
makes you go Yeah, I'm I'm going
37:12
through that too. But sometimes
37:12
we just don't allow ourselves to
37:15
cut through the fat and just
37:15
say, call the thing a thing and
37:17
talk about it. And Christina
37:17
does that really, really well.
37:20
And so I'm excited to she was
37:20
making the podcast before she
37:23
brought it to our network. And
37:23
we're excited to build it out
37:25
with her. And then we're doing
37:25
another show. This is kind of
37:28
our first real foray into like a
37:28
younger territory. The show's
37:31
called younger, but wiser, and
37:31
Ripley writer is a clothing
37:35
designer out of LA. And she's
37:35
also the founder of Camp Rocky
37:40
Road, which is a camp for young
37:40
women to like, help builds
37:44
confidence and self esteem. And
37:44
so we did 10 episodes with young
37:48
women from around the country.
37:48
And what we wanted was for them
37:52
to tell us what they really do
37:52
understand about being people
37:55
about being in the world about
37:55
things that are important to
37:57
them, because I think we
37:57
underestimate what teenagers and
38:00
young people actually understand
38:00
about the human experience.
38:03
Every single one of these girls
38:03
were remarkable and how they
38:06
shared, you know, they all got
38:06
to sort of pick that something
38:09
they want to focus on. And then
38:09
we talked to him. And when I
38:12
tell you, I was sitting there
38:12
taking notes, like how did I
38:14
not? Like do we, we we have an
38:14
understanding that we are that
38:18
confident when we're that young.
38:18
But somehow we let the world
38:21
take it away from us, we let it
38:21
sort of beat it out of us. And
38:24
they're still in the point where
38:24
they get it and it's thorough,
38:26
and it's bone deep. And these
38:26
younger generations are holding
38:30
on to that in a way that we
38:30
weren't able to. We were Gen
38:33
Xers or even Millennials like
38:33
these Gen Z kids get it in
38:37
there. And it's it's exciting to
38:37
watch. But it's even better to
38:40
hear because it feels like it,
38:40
it feels like it opens you back
38:44
up and you remember you you
38:44
could be that confident to where
38:47
you can be that thoughtful or
38:47
that kind or that purposeful to
38:51
and hearing it come out of the
38:51
mouth of a young person makes it
38:55
all the better because it
38:55
ultimately feels like The Kids
38:58
Are All Right.
38:58  Alban
It always remarkable to
38:58
me when you read like a really
39:02
good book or you listen to a
39:02
really good song. And every once
39:06
in a while. I have this
39:06
experience where I go oh, when
39:11
she wrote that she was like,
39:11
half my age, right? You know
39:14
that this isn't a song by a 17
39:14
year old. And you go wait.
39:21
Everyone is like actually really
39:21
smart and really wise it much
39:25
younger age than we like want to
39:25
give people credit for a lot of
39:30
like, our greatest art is from
39:30
people from like aged 17 to 23
39:36
before like the world was saying
39:36
like, Oh no, you don't know what
39:40
love is. You don't know what
39:40
this is like you don't know
39:42
anything. Just wait. It's almost
39:42
like this. The cynicism might
39:47
set in later. And so there's a
39:47
lot of emotions and stuff and
39:51
wisdom that can come out of a
39:51
much younger person. Well,
39:55
that's a cool idea for
39:56  Twila
sure. I'll tell you I'm
39:56
biased because one of the
39:59
replies reached out to a lot of
39:59
girls. And she asked if she
40:02
could reach out to my daughter,
40:02
I have a 17 year old daughter.
40:04
And I was like, you can ask her
40:04
if she's gonna say no. And she
40:07
didn't. She did an interview for
40:07
us. And when I tell you, I was
40:11
unprepared for how, you know,
40:11
deeply thorough, she had thought
40:16
about the things she had thought
40:16
about. And I'm very close to my
40:19
kids. But it's different when
40:19
you when someone else's engaging
40:22
them. And they're getting to
40:22
express themselves in a way that
40:25
is, the way they present the way
40:25
they present themselves to the
40:28
world and the way that they want
40:28
to share information with the
40:31
world. And I mean, I made the
40:31
huge mistake of saying I'll do
40:34
the audio capture, it'll be
40:34
easier because we're both in the
40:36
same house. And I literally like
40:36
cried through the whole audio
40:39
because I was so proud of her.
40:39
And I was so surprised at how
40:42
deeply heartfelt she was about
40:42
the things she was talking
40:45
about. And I was like, okay,
40:45
lesson notes itself. I can't do
40:49
any interviews around any of my
40:49
kids Note to self, because she
40:53
was I mean, she was great.
40:53
They're all the girls are great.
40:55
But I'm I'm very, very excited
40:55
for people to hear it.
40:57  Alban
So kind of pulling
40:57
together all these shows that
41:01
you've done for matriarch
41:01
digital media, can you help
41:06
explain to a lot of people are
41:06
listening to because I think a
41:08
lot of people are doing solo
41:08
podcasts. And they probably
41:12
don't love the feeling of doing
41:12
this on their own. And I know
41:16
that it's often enticing to say,
41:16
I want to be part of a network,
41:19
I want to connect with other
41:19
podcasters. Could you kind of
41:23
give us some of the pros and
41:23
cons, the ways you think about
41:25
starting a network or an actual
41:25
company around a series of
41:30
podcasts.
41:30  Twila
So for us, the funny
41:30
thing is when we started our
41:34
network, everybody was like this
41:34
is not a good idea. You know,
41:37
women isn't an actual vertical.
41:37
In podcasting. It's true. It's
41:41
not, it's still not, you can't
41:41
like go look at women is
41:44
content, you'll get titles, but
41:44
it's not a vertical. And so we
41:48
had to really think like what
41:48
were we trying to accomplish
41:51
with this when grouping the
41:51
shows together. And I knew what
41:53
we were trying to accomplish, I
41:53
wanted our shows to do two
41:57
things. On a very basic surface
41:57
level, I wanted you to feel like
42:01
when you show up at brunch with
42:01
all your best girlfriends, and
42:05
you don't know what you need,
42:05
when you get there, you might
42:06
need a drink, you might need a
42:06
laugh, you might need some
42:08
advice you might need, you know,
42:08
so a referral, something. But
42:13
when you leave that table, you
42:13
feel better than when you got
42:16
there. And I knew if we were
42:16
making shows and the core of
42:19
those shows is that we help
42:19
women every single time with the
42:21
content we provide that no
42:21
matter where you find yourself
42:24
in our shows, there's something
42:24
for you, and it will help you.
42:28
So in terms of how you frame out
42:28
a network, I think I think that
42:32
it's important to either have an
42:32
overall connector to those shows
42:36
that can't be so disparate and
42:36
disconnected, that it just feels
42:40
like you know, a hodgepodge. I
42:40
think a lot of the more recent
42:43
networks that you're seeing pop
42:43
up where they kind of talk about
42:46
maybe one particular type of
42:46
industry and then have different
42:50
spins on it. I think those are
42:50
very smart, because it does
42:52
allow you to hone in really
42:52
quickly on who is our core
42:56
audience? And are we hitting the
42:56
core audience when we're
42:58
building the product? If you're
42:58
doing something, it's all
43:01
fashion, then yeah, I say all
43:01
the time, if I show up to for a
43:05
podcast and you say you're going
43:05
to talk to me about clothes,
43:07
don't talk to me about puppies.
43:07
Talk to me about clothes, right,
43:11
it makes sense. Our idea was a
43:11
little bit more high minded. And
43:15
we knew that we knew we were
43:15
going to have to teach you how
43:18
to use our programming. And it's
43:18
actually a thing I talk about in
43:22
podcasting a lot. Because we
43:22
don't teach enough people how to
43:24
use podcasts, we teach them that
43:24
they exist, but not how they can
43:28
use them in their lives. So when
43:28
you're thinking about a network,
43:31
really think about, you know, be
43:31
audience forward. Think about
43:36
what the audience that use your
43:36
core audience needs to get from
43:39
you don't think about what I
43:39
want to give you or what I want
43:41
to present to you or what I
43:41
think should exist. Think about
43:45
what the audience really needs,
43:45
what's the hole in the market,
43:48
what could really be? What could
43:48
what could be a saw a pain point
43:52
solver for, you know, for your
43:52
audience overall, figure that
43:56
out, and then all of a sudden,
43:56
it'll be easier to pinpoint,
43:59
like this show would be great
43:59
for our network, or this person
44:02
would be really great fit for
44:02
our network. At the same time,
44:05
if you're solo, and you're
44:05
thinking about joining a
44:08
network, you need to put your
44:08
best interests first period and
44:11
a story. I don't own every show
44:11
at my network. If you brought
44:15
your idea to me and your idea
44:15
was fully formed or you it was a
44:19
part of your business or you had
44:19
this idea fully baked and you
44:22
came to me because you need
44:22
support on how to make this into
44:25
a podcast. I don't deserve
44:25
ownership of it. IP is the most
44:28
important thing you have. And if
44:28
anybody is telling you to join a
44:32
network, and that the only way
44:32
you can be here or be a part of
44:35
is if you give up your IP or you
44:35
give up a significant chunk of
44:38
your ownership to them. They're
44:38
not the people to be in business
44:41
with you can do this on your
44:41
own. You can even do like
44:44
podcast collectors where it's
44:44
not necessarily a network but
44:47
you've got a group of podcasts
44:47
all working together and help
44:49
advance each other you know,
44:49
sharing best practices, sharing
44:52
skills, sharing support, putting
44:52
in resources to be able to rent
44:57
equipment or rent spaces,
44:57
whatever that is. You can do
45:00
whatever you need to do, it's
45:00
not necessarily the case that
45:04
joining a network will improve
45:04
your life necessarily. Because
45:07
honestly, you'll still be doing
45:07
the same volume of work.
45:09
Hopefully, you'll get more
45:09
marketing support, more, you
45:13
know, maybe financial
45:13
underpinnings, support, access
45:15
to equipment, things like that.
45:15
But that's not a given with any
45:18
you know, given network that you
45:18
join, do your due diligence,
45:21
make decisions that are best for
45:21
you, ask real questions. And
45:26
then make sure anything you sign
45:26
your name to you have read in
45:29
triplicate, and had your trusted
45:29
people read in triplicate, and
45:33
even have a lawyer if you need
45:33
one. Try read things in
45:36
triplicate, make sure you're
45:36
making the deal that's best for
45:39
you. But that protects you, you
45:39
should be able to leave a
45:42
network with whatever you
45:42
brought to a network, period.
45:45
And if that's not the case, on
45:45
paper, don't sign a deal.
45:49  Alban
Yeah, we recently saw
45:49
this kind of in the media play
45:51
out between gimlet and the nod
45:54  Twila
very, very much. So.
45:57  Alban
Yeah, and just the
45:57
ability, you know, if you do
46:00
leave a network, or you want to
46:00
continue to show after the
46:03
network decides that they're not
46:03
going to be invested anymore?
46:06
Are you going to be able to
46:06
leave? Are you gonna be able to
46:08
have the same title the same
46:08
feed, which is all the
46:11
subscribers? The back episodes
46:11
that? Well, I mean, if you're
46:16
not going to continue the show,
46:16
like what are the back episodes
46:19
mean to you just to leave them
46:19
there and no one ever touch them
46:22
again? Yeah, all that stuff is
46:22
becoming much more apparent. I
46:28
mean, when I practice law, one
46:28
of the things that we kept
46:31
seeing was, we always were the
46:31
ones coming in at the very end
46:36
of a business deal gone bad. And
46:36
they would always say,
46:41
especially because we're in the
46:41
south, well, the way I always
46:43
did business was with a
46:43
handshake, right? People kept
46:45
their word. And we all knew what
46:45
we all knew, and everyone
46:48
treated each other well, until
46:48
they didn't. And people's
46:52
memories are different. And
46:52
people's expectations that were
46:55
unspoken, are different. That is
46:55
the benefit of like putting
46:59
things in a contract. It's not
46:59
to trick anyone, hopefully, you
47:02
don't have to feel like it's
47:02
starting on a bad foot. By
47:06
putting things in a contract,
47:06
what you're doing is saying,
47:08
hey, just to be clear, here's
47:08
what I'm bringing the table,
47:12
here's what you're bringing to
47:12
the table, here's the benefits
47:14
for yours, the benefits for me.
47:14
And if we have to break up some
47:17
day, here's how we'll do it in
47:17
an amicable way. And if
47:21
everybody can get on board with
47:21
that, then you're gonna make
47:24
your life so much easier. For
47:24
the entire relationship. I
47:28  Twila
mean, a contract is a is
47:28
the worst case scenario played
47:31
out on paper, period. And
47:31
there's nothing wrong with that
47:33
there's nothing wrong with bad
47:33
thinking about when things are
47:36
good thinking about what's the
47:36
worst that could happen and how
47:38
what we get out of it. Because
47:38
that way, when the worst does
47:40
happen, and your feelings are
47:40
involved, you've got a roadmap.
47:43
And the roadmap is signed and
47:43
agreed upon by everybody, there
47:46
is no rocking around it. And
47:46
it's important. I mean, the
47:50
thing with podcasting is a lot
47:50
of us getting into it, don't
47:53
have business backgrounds, we're
47:53
not entrepreneurs, we're not
47:55
even media people initially. And
47:55
if you happen upon something
47:58
that starts to do well and gets
47:58
traction and can gain, you know,
48:02
revenue or trajectory for you,
48:02
you deserve to be able to have
48:05
control over what that looks
48:05
like. Don't let people convince
48:09
you that you're not capable of
48:09
doing things on your own. You
48:12
are capable. You can most of
48:12
this is these are choices, do
48:16
you? am I choosing to do this by
48:16
myself? am I choosing to gather
48:18
a team? am I choosing to go to a
48:18
network, it's still your choice
48:21
first, nobody else's, it's your
48:21
choice. And you have to exercise
48:26
that when you seed and here's
48:26
the thing, it's a I saw a clip
48:29
not too long ago, it was Ava
48:29
DuVernay talking about like
48:32
permission culture. And she was
48:32
explaining like, if you know, a
48:37
lot of us wait for permission to
48:37
do things, we wait for somebody
48:39
to show up and tell us how, or
48:39
give us the money or walk us
48:43
through it or hold our hand. And
48:43
that's not going to happen. If
48:47
you actually want to get you
48:47
know, from point A to point B,
48:50
if you actually want the thing
48:50
that's the vision in your head
48:52
to exist in the world, you got
48:52
to go make make it you got to go
48:55
start, you got to go try, you
48:55
might make mistakes, you might
48:58
fail at it, you might need to
48:58
start over again. That's okay.
49:02
But when you wait for somebody
49:02
else and you cede power as soon
49:05
as you can to somebody else,
49:05
that's your power, you're saying
49:07
to them don't do that. You
49:07
deserve to own your own power,
49:10
you deserve to own your own
49:10
voice. And again, in this
49:13
industry, IP is the strongest
49:13
part of your voice because that
49:15
IP means you will keep control
49:15
of your RSS feed, you will keep
49:19
control of the ability to
49:19
monetize and make money off of
49:24
the digital product you created.
49:24
Don't give that to anybody else.
49:27
Nobody else deserves that.
49:28  Alban
Yeah, we actually just
49:28
saw this again, I'm thinking of
49:30
other things in the industry.
49:30
Call her daddy leaving our
49:34
school sports and going to
49:34
Spotify. Had she not set it up
49:38
that she got to keep the feed.
49:38
She had to keep the IP that deal
49:43
never could happen, right?
49:43
Because the real benefit that
49:47
you have is like being able to
49:47
take those subscribers with you
49:53
to where you're going be able to
49:53
keep the name so people
49:56
remember. Oh, this is actually a
49:56
continuation of the old show.
50:00
It's very difficult if you get
50:00
cut off, and you have to rebuild
50:04
that entire audience from
50:04
scratch, you have to rebuild,
50:08
you know, all the subscribers,
50:08
and especially if for some
50:11
reason you don't even, you
50:11
aren't even able to say the name
50:14
of your old show, which has
50:14
happened to a pretty big
50:18
podcaster that I know pretty
50:18
much got cut off from his own
50:20
show, remember that he ended up
50:20
having to rebuild it, and can't
50:24
even speak the name of the show
50:24
that he basically created. And
50:28  Twila
that's, I mean, that's so
50:28
important. We still see it now.
50:31
I mean, we still see I still get
50:31
occasional calls of people
50:33
saying, Oh, I got a chance.
50:33
Somebody offered me the chance
50:36
to be on this network. But they
50:36
said I had to pay, like 5000 to
50:39
join the network. And I was
50:39
like, No, you don't. And they're
50:42
like, I mean, but they said, I
50:42
said, Okay, well, I'm telling
50:44
you don't do that. That's a bad
50:44
deal. Don't take that deal.
50:47
Let's get you what you need, you
50:47
know, what's what's make you
50:50
think you need to join a
50:50
network, and they're like, Well,
50:51
I just can't do this by myself
50:51
anymore. Okay, well, then let's
50:54
talk about what you can do.
50:54
Let's talk about how to get your
50:56
resources, let's talk about how
50:56
to maybe use better technology
50:59
that you didn't realize you had
50:59
access to. To make it easier to
51:03
do this. I mean, we did
51:03
everything here, initially, by
51:06
hook or by crook. And I still do
51:06
a lot of business by you know, I
51:10
still rob Peter to pay Paul and
51:10
hope Mary shows up with a check.
51:13
But it's ours. It's not anybody
51:13
else's, it's ours. Right. And
51:19
you should be able to have the
51:19
autonomy to do that. And the one
51:22
thing about podcasting that I
51:22
have found to be wonderful, is,
51:26
you can go find those people who
51:26
will help you, you can go find
51:30
those networks of people that
51:30
will support you, or point you
51:33
to resources, or free learning,
51:33
or, you know, or who are sharing
51:36
massive amounts of information.
51:36
And like the stuff that you guys
51:38
do at Buzzsprout is really
51:38
important. The work that you see
51:42
come out of air in terms of
51:42
like, fair pricing is important,
51:45
the work that POCs and audio is
51:45
doing to connect more workers,
51:49
you know, and to the industry is
51:49
important. But all of these
51:51
things are here. Sometimes you
51:51
just need like to meet somebody
51:54
like me, who can say, oh, did
51:54
you know this? Or did you try
51:57
this? Or did you find this? And
51:57
that's why we do a lot of the
51:59
work that we do, because I want
51:59
you to have the resources
52:02
because I want you to be out
52:02
here too. I say all the time we
52:04
all eat. I want all of us to win
52:04
this. Yeah,
52:07  Alban
absolutely. There's
52:07
definitely more than more than
52:11
enough space, if, you know,
52:11
we're all working together. And
52:14
we're seeing this not as like a
52:14
zero sum game that we can all
52:18
like this is a growing industry
52:18
that's been growing rapidly. For
52:22
10 years, plus, there is a lot
52:22
more space, there's a lot more
52:26
space to grow. And the more that
52:26
we are educating and teaching
52:30
each other and elevating each
52:30
other, we can everybody can have
52:35
a podcast that wants to have a
52:35
podcast everybody can have and
52:37
find their own unique voice. And
52:37
this industry has enough space
52:43
for everybody. We don't have to
52:43
feel like well, my show. If
52:47
there's another show that's
52:47
doing really well, then that's
52:50
probably taking away from me,
52:50
no, there's probably like six
52:52
spots for six shows like that.
52:52
There's a lot more space than
52:56  Twila
we will and I'm a big
52:56
advocate now for the industry
52:58
has enough of a growth cycle
52:58
that there's room for you to do
53:01
this, even if a podcast isn't
53:01
the thing that you want to be
53:03
doing. Like you might not want
53:03
to be a host, you might not want
53:06
to be the person that captures
53:06
audio, we have an entire side of
53:09
our industry that is
53:09
administrative and technical and
53:12
sales and marketing based. And
53:12
technology based. You can you
53:17
can find a really great place to
53:17
fit in, right, there's there's
53:20
all kinds of work out here. You
53:20
just have to figure out what's
53:22
your niche, what's the thing you
53:22
want to be doing, and figure out
53:25
how you can do it in the
53:25
industry. I have people that
53:27
work for my company, they don't
53:27
cut any tape, they don't do any
53:30
recording. But they're master
53:30
organizers, and they keep all
53:33
they keep the trains running at
53:33
our company. You know, we have
53:35
people who just love editing and
53:35
that's all they do is edit, we
53:39
have increasingly people coming
53:39
on board who you know,
53:42
understand, you know, design and
53:42
optics and things like that. And
53:45
they're helping us get the
53:45
company where we need it to be.
53:48
The industry absolutely is
53:48
growing. And that means there
53:51
are more fields opening up
53:51
within the industry. I mean,
53:54
it's it's why I love seeing what
53:54
what Brian Barletta is doing
53:59
with like sounds profitable,
53:59
because he's explaining what
54:02
that back end technical side of
54:02
the industry looks like and what
54:05
it means and how to get engaged
54:05
and how to understand it to be
54:08
able to get hired in the
54:08
industry. Those are jobs.
54:12
They're not just it's not just
54:12
like when we samma to start a
54:14
podcast and hopefully monetize
54:14
these are like jobs waiting in
54:17
our industry right now that
54:17
people need to be filling. And
54:20
now you can go away. I'm good at
54:20
that. I know how to do that, Oh,
54:23
I get a job. That's important.
54:23
That's for an industry to grow
54:27
and have longevity. It needs to
54:27
be able to have that kind of
54:29
dynamism we're starting to see
54:29
it. Now. We also have to be
54:32
smart enough to recognize it as
54:32
it's happening. Am I making sure
54:37
that more Am I making sure to
54:37
expose it to more people am I
54:40
saying hey, you can get involved
54:40
in this too or hey, I think
54:43
you'd be great for this you know
54:43
before I used to be always on
54:45
the hunt for a good host you
54:45
like you'd be a great host you'd
54:48
be a great podcast host you
54:48
should have podcast and now I'm
54:51
equally on the hunt for you be
54:51
great at analytics for
54:54
podcasting or you be great at
54:54
you know, you'd be great at the
54:57
sales and technical side of
54:57
podcasting. You'd be great at
55:00
Marketing for podcasting, you
55:00
know, all you know, wait, you
55:02
know, SEO? Dude, you should get
55:02
a job over here, this would be
55:05
great. That's important. I mean,
55:05
that's how I'm a big advocate
55:10
for the industry growing so that
55:10
there's more opportunities for
55:13
all of us. But I also want us to
55:13
have a say in the industry as it
55:16
grows.
55:18  Alban
Yeah, absolutely. There's
55:18
a lot of the things you're
55:21
seeing right now keep kind of
55:21
tying me back to your background
55:26
and understanding of radio. And
55:26
I think podcasting is very easy
55:33
for us to think we're very
55:33
different from radio because
55:35
like, oh, no, this is like,
55:35
there's something going on an
55:38
RSS feed is not over like a
55:38
radio tower. There are a lot of
55:43
differences. There's a lot of
55:43
similarities. What can
55:45
podcasting learn from radio?
55:48  Twila
Pot, the thing that I'm
55:48
actually one of those people
55:51
that fully believes that, that
55:51
podcasting or radio are like
55:54
this, they're not these two
55:54
desperate things. It's, it's
55:58
just like, when you see the you
55:58
know, like the, that is like
56:02
that old drawing of like, you
56:02
know, modern man is starts out
56:05
as like, you know, he's on four,
56:05
you know, he's on four feet, and
56:08
then he's on two legs, and he's
56:08
running. That's us. That's
56:10
exactly what we're just an
56:10
evolution of the thing that came
56:14
before it. But one of the
56:14
strongest things that radio does
56:17
that podcasting doesn't always
56:17
know how to do is talk to. It's
56:24
very, very good at talking to
56:24
the masses with specificity.
56:29
Podcasting doesn't really do
56:29
that yet. We do. We were still
56:33
in the, okay, like how to best
56:33
describe this. So you know, when
56:37
you're a kid, you get a
56:37
skateboard. And then all your
56:39
kids, all the kids, and they get
56:39
a skateboard. And then
56:42
everybody's just trying to do
56:42
like, you know, you know, kick
56:45
flips and stuff. And they're
56:45
like, look, I'm all everybody
56:48
keeps trying to do a statin
56:48
they're following in their head.
56:50
And then there's like, one
56:50
person who comes out with a
56:53
skateboard, but then they're
56:53
like dad is with them, or their
56:56
mom is with them. And they used
56:56
to ride skateboards, and they
56:58
actually show them how to
56:58
balance on a skateboard. And
57:01
they show them how to get
57:01
momentum on the skateboard. They
57:05
showed them how to position a
57:05
body on the skateboard. So
57:07
instead of just like trying to
57:07
do something interesting, so you
57:09
can say it's interesting.
57:09
They're teaching them
57:11
fundamental. Radio is very good
57:11
at fundamental. And they and
57:16
because they're so good at
57:16
fundamental, that makes it very
57:19
easy to replicate product, and
57:19
structurally replicate product
57:23
in a way they can be successful.
57:23
Like I hear a podcast or slag on
57:27
like morning show host all the
57:27
time. But morning shows are
57:29
successful, because they
57:29
understand the formula of how a
57:32
morning show feels and how it
57:32
works within the context of a
57:35
commute. When you're a podcast,
57:35
and you make something and you
57:39
want it to be able to fit within
57:39
the confines, or be be
57:42
accessible within the confines
57:42
of certain things, you can't
57:45
just decide I'm going to do a
57:45
bunch of kick flips, and you'll
57:46
just like it, you got to go back
57:46
to the fundamental, and you got
57:50
to figure out how you can
57:50
sometimes do that cool thing,
57:53
but within the structure of the
57:53
fundamental, we were still over
57:56
here in the corner going like,
57:56
I'm gonna make this super
57:59
interesting thing. And I'm going
57:59
to do this, and I'm going to do
58:01
this. And yeah, sometimes that
58:01
stuff is great. But sometimes
58:05
we're trying too hard. Sometimes
58:05
you should just make something
58:08
that's just for you. Sometimes
58:08
you should just make something
58:10
that's great. Just make
58:10
something great. It's not that
58:13
bad.
58:14  Alban
So we can learn a little
58:14
bit about the format, we can see
58:17
how to, you know, actually, this
58:17
makes sense, because a lot of
58:20
the early podcasts that really
58:20
kind of kick started the medium
58:24
came from public radio, I mean,
58:24
This American Life, a lot of
58:28
NPR, podcasts, serial s town,
58:28
these are all born out of people
58:34
who are on the radio forever.
58:34
Terry Gross was probably one of
58:38
the first podcasters I ever
58:38
listened to. All these were
58:42
shows that started on the radio,
58:42
and they said, Oh, well, we
58:47
could do this podcasting thing
58:47
and maybe get more listeners.
58:51
And they really kind of
58:51
pioneered the, the industry.
58:54  Twila
Well, and that's the
58:54
thing. Like, I think there's
58:57
that thing of like you
58:57
understand, like, it's that idea
59:00
of you don't know your history,
59:00
you're doomed to repeat it.
59:03
Right? So the history is we know
59:03
what radio did and we know what
59:06
it gave us and we know how we
59:06
built it. And we know that there
59:09
are fundamentals of radio that
59:09
we've learned really beautifully
59:12
that we're able to translate
59:12
into podcasting. But being
59:15
doomed to repeat it is having it
59:15
still be just as closed off or
59:18
cut off in terms of access as it
59:18
was before podcasting doesn't
59:22
have to do that. It doesn't have
59:22
to be all, you know, broadcast
59:27
school trained journalist based,
59:27
you know, white, middle aged
59:32
male public media audience
59:32
focus, I mean, there's a way for
59:36
us to take the most beautiful
59:36
parts of this and the most
59:40
effective, you know, structural