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The last word in podcasting news... every Thursday in Podland, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from 'Podcast First' River Radio in the UK, join forces to review and analyse some of the week's top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. This podcast is sponsored by Buzzsprout.

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episode 53: Winslow Bright talks about licensing music for your podcast. Hint: there is no fair usage. It's the start of the podcast awards season. Facebook podcasting is growing but it's clearly not ready for primetime and Spotify is testing sponsorship? [transcript]


 HOSTS:

  • Listen to James Cridland and Sam Sethi   

GUEST: 

  • Winslow Bright - Executive Producer at Premier Music Group

NEWS: 

  • Apple Podcasts announced its Best of 2021. A Slight Change of Plans with Maya Shankar from Pushkin Industries was chosen as Best Show of the Year.

  • The chart also gives us some understanding of the performance of Apple Podcasts Paid Subscriptions - Bad Blood: The Final Chapter is #1 in the list, and said in September that they had 6,000 subscribers. (That was $16,000 a month in revenue after Apple’s cut).

  • The Australian Podcast Awards winners will be announced on Thursday 2nd December at a live ceremony in Sydney.

  • In Australia, the winners of the Australian Commercial Radio Awards were announced. Best Original Podcast went to Zero Waste Baby with Veronica Milsom, produced by SCA’s LiSTNR.

  • In the UK, the 2021 Audio Production Awards took place. The Production Company of the Year was won by Listen Entertainment.

  • In the UK, The Rachel Bland new podcast award from BBC Radio 5 Live has been awarded this year to You’re Not My Mum: The Stepmum’s Side.  

  • Edison Research’s Infinite Dial is coming to the UK. The UK has been without a direct comparison to the US, Canada and Australia in terms of podcast consumption.

  • The latest Share of Ear study from Edison Research suggests that more than a quarter of all Americans aged 18-34 are listening to podcasts every day. 

  • Facebook is growing for podcast consumption: Tom Webster from Edison Research reports that Q3/21 data showed that 20% of people had listened to a podcast on Facebook. The same data three months earlier was just 8%. Meanwhile, still no sign of podcasts in Facebook outside the US

  • RAIN’s Brad Hill reviews Facebook Podcasts. “Clearly not ready for primetime”, he concludes.
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 2021-12-02  57m
 
 
00:01  James
Welcome to Podland the
00:01
last word in podcasting use.
00:04
It's the 2nd of December, 2021.
00:06
I'm James Cridland, the
00:06
editor of pod news.net
00:08
in Australia, but I'm Sam
00:09
Sethi,
00:10  Sam
the MD of reverberating I'm
00:12  Winslow
Winslow bright
00:12
from premier music group.
00:14
And later I'll talk about
00:14
music licensing and the new
00:18
Paul Simon autobiography
00:18
miracle and wonder.
00:23  James
Podland is sponsored by
00:23
Buzzsprout used by over 105,000
00:28
active podcasters to host,
00:28
promote and track your podcast.
00:32  Sam
Podland is a weekly podcast
00:32
where James and I delve deeper
00:35
into the week's podcasting news.
00:37
And the big news this week is
00:37
it's this shiny award season.
00:40
James.
00:41
It seems everyone's
00:41
got a bobble.
00:43
Yeah.
00:44
Have you got a book now?
00:45
You've got baubles.
00:45
Haven't you?
00:46
You've got.
00:47
. Yeah,
00:47  James
I've got two
00:47
of them, actually.
00:49
Sam, I don't know whether I've
00:49
ever mentioned this before.
00:52  Sam
Uh, it's a passing moment.
00:54
I think you have
00:54
now apple podcasts.
00:57
They announced the
00:57
best of 20, 21.
01:00
Uh, and or who
01:00
did they announce?
01:02
James?
01:02
What was the big
01:02
highlight for 2021 for us?
01:06  James
Well, they announced
01:06
loads of things, but the, uh,
01:08
the big ones are a slight change
01:08
of plans with mayor Shankar
01:12
from Pushkin industries was
01:12
chosen as best show of the year.
01:15
And, um, newcomer of the
01:15
year went to anything for
01:19
Selena, which is WBUR.
01:22
And Futuro, um, there's
01:22
a list of top new shows
01:26
and top subscriptions
01:26
available in the app as well.
01:29
And obviously those lists
01:29
are different depending
01:31
on which country are in.
01:33  Sam
Well, I did have to look
01:33
those up because they're not.
01:36
Podcast listening out.
01:37
Um, but I do feel
01:37
now underwhelmed in
01:40
sense of my abilities.
01:42
Mayor Shanker was the white
01:42
house, behavioral science
01:45
team expert, and she also
01:45
worked for the United nations.
01:49
So not somebody who's a
01:49
lightweight, then who's just
01:51
turned up with a podcast.
01:53  James
No indeed.
01:55
So, uh, yeah, I know there
01:55
are, there are some, um,
01:58
really good names in there.
01:59
And what the chart also gives us
01:59
actually is some understanding
02:03
of how apple podcasts paid
02:03
subscriptions are doing.
02:07
Because number one in
02:07
the list is bad blood.
02:09
The final chapter.
02:11
Now in September, they said
02:11
they had 6,000 subscribers.
02:15
Which equates to about 16
02:15
grand a month in terms of us
02:19
dollars after Apple's cart.
02:21
So, um, I wonder how
02:21
many new people they've
02:24
added since September.
02:26
And I also wonder when these
02:26
charts were compiled, but those
02:29
are the sorts of numbers that
02:29
we're seeing at the top of apple
02:32
podcasts paid subscriptions.
02:34
So not an awful lot of
02:34
cash, if that's the case.
02:37
No, but I'm
02:38  Sam
sure that after
02:38
this awards that Dunbar
02:40
or shoot up dramatically
02:42  James
now indeed one, one
02:42
would certainly hope so.
02:44
Although, interesting to note
02:44
that, uh, today, both Pushkin,
02:49
um, and slate have both
02:49
announced that they are now
02:53
making their paid subscriptions
02:53
available in Spotify as well.
02:57
Um, and both of them
02:57
talking about, we want
03:00
people on other platforms
03:00
to be able to enjoy our.
03:04
Um, shows.
03:05
So, um, perhaps, uh, apples,
03:05
you know, not being on Android
03:10
is, uh, coming to bite them.
03:11
That's your bet.
03:12  Sam
Isn't it for the year that
03:12
they will release a Android.
03:16
How you doing
03:18  James
think I'm running
03:18
out of time, but we'll
03:20
see what happens,
03:22  Sam
uh, down your way.
03:23
The Australian podcast
03:23
award winners will be
03:25
announced today, uh, in a
03:25
live ceremony in Sydney.
03:29
Uh, you won't be there.
03:30
Of course.
03:31
Will you be.
03:32  James
Yes, I'm looking
03:32
forward to the Australian
03:34
podcast awards.
03:35
They are tonight
03:35
as we record this.
03:37
So I only know who's won one of
03:37
the awards and that's the one
03:41
that I ended up giving away a
03:41
couple of days ago on video.
03:44
Uh, so I'll find out
03:44
what happens there.
03:46
I would dearly have liked to
03:46
have been in Sydney by the way.
03:50
So would Matt Deegan,
03:50
uh, as well, we'd like to
03:52
have been in Sydney, but
03:52
there's always next year.
03:54  Sam
Yes.
03:56
And also there's going to be
03:56
the big, a cast of podcasts
03:59
of the year announcement.
04:00
So there'll be a gold winner, I
04:02  James
guess the will be
04:02
in terms of Australia,
04:04
which is always good.
04:06
And also the winners of
04:06
the Australian commercial
04:08
radio awards were announced.
04:09
There were three, I think
04:09
podcasts categories,
04:12
might've been four in there.
04:13
Uh, the best original podcast,
04:13
which is the one that.
04:16
Uh, commercial radio Australia
04:16
highlighted went to zero waste
04:20
baby, which is a mothering
04:20
podcast with Veronica.
04:24
Milsom produced by Southern
04:24
cross Austereo is listener.
04:28
Uh, so, uh, lots of gongs
04:28
there and guns in your
04:31
part of the woods as well.
04:33
Yeah,
04:33  Sam
the 2021 audio
04:33
production awards took place.
04:37
The production company
04:37
of the year was won by
04:39
listening to tainment.
04:40
Uh, and in the show notes, we'll
04:40
have a link to all the winners.
04:44  James
Indeed.
04:45
And also the Rachel bland
04:45
new podcast award from
04:48
radio five live was awarded
04:48
this year to your, not my
04:51
mum, the step-mom's side.
04:53
Um, it's a really good award
04:53
that radio five live do.
04:56
It's named after the
04:56
newsreader and presenter.
04:59
Uh, Rachel bland, who
04:59
died of cancer in 2018 and
05:02
she recorded a podcast.
05:04
Which was all about that.
05:05
So, um, probably worth a
05:05
listen, Katy Harrison's podcast.
05:09
You're not my mum,
05:09
the stepmom side.
05:11  Sam
Now moving forward.
05:12
It seems as data,
05:12
data everywhere.
05:14
Again, uh, Edison
05:14
research, infinite dial
05:17
is coming to the UK.
05:19
What is the infinite dial?
05:20
He sounds like a
05:20
doctor who series.
05:23  James
Well, the infinite dial
05:23
is actually the data that all
05:28
of the podcast companies use.
05:30
It's that, um, overarching
05:30
number of how many people
05:35
listen to podcasts every
05:35
week or every month.
05:38
Um, Brilliant about it is
05:38
that it's produced in the U
05:41
S it's produced in Canada and
05:41
it's produced in Australia.
05:45
It's been produced in
05:45
the past in Germany and
05:48
in South Africa as well.
05:50
And it's deliberately
05:50
produced to be, um, to be.
05:55
Um, what's the phrase it's
05:55
deliberately produced to be
05:59
comparable, uh, in between
05:59
different countries as well.
06:02
So unlike the radar data that
06:02
we have in the UK or that
06:05
you have in the UK, um, this
06:05
is a comparable information.
06:09
So quite useful from that
06:09
point of view, again,
06:12
that is today as we record
06:12
this, um, you'll probably
06:15
already see the results.
06:16
In a pod news, uh, in the
06:16
next, um, in the next day or so
06:21  Sam
the latest share of IR
06:21
study, which again is from
06:24
Edison research, suggest that
06:24
more than a quarter of all
06:27
Americans aged 18 to 34 are
06:27
listening to podcasts every day.
06:31
Now that's surprising James,
06:31
cause we didn't think.
06:34
Sub 20 five-year-olds
06:34
are interested in
06:36  James
podcasting.
06:37
Well, I think sub 20,
06:37
five-year-olds kind of
06:39
interested in podcasting, but
06:39
certainly, um, looking at that
06:43
that's a daily figure, which I
06:43
don't think we've seen before.
06:46
Um, this is, um, a little bit
06:46
annoying because share of ear
06:51
is a great study that Edison
06:51
research releases every quarter,
06:55
but they don't release it.
06:56
And the only way of knowing
06:56
what's in there is to,
07:00
um, hope that some of.
07:03
Uh, customers, uh, end up
07:03
releasing some of the data.
07:06
Thank you to Pierre Boulevard,
07:06
friend of the show from
07:10
Cumulus media for telling
07:10
us some of those, um, those
07:13
pieces of information.
07:15
What share of ear
07:15
essentially tells you is.
07:18
And everybody listens to
07:18
in, uh, you know, in their
07:22
audio, in their ears, in
07:22
their headphones, in their
07:25
speakers, in their cars, you
07:25
know, whatever it might be.
07:28
And it shows how podcasts
07:28
fit in with the rest
07:30
of media consumption.
07:32
So things like, um, you
07:32
know, radio consumption
07:35
and Spotify, uh, music and,
07:35
uh, and everything else.
07:38
So again, fascinating data.
07:41
And it's the sort of data that,
07:41
uh, if you ever see me talking
07:44
about the future of radio, then
07:44
it's the sort of data that I
07:47
lean on quite heavily, because
07:47
it's so useful in terms of that,
07:50  Sam
would it be that
07:50
younger people are
07:53
turning to podcasting?
07:54
Because one of the things
07:54
that the Rachel, uh, data that
07:59
came out in October here in
07:59
the UK showed was that the
08:02
music radio stations in the
08:02
UK, certainly radio one, uh,
08:06
radio six, we're seeing a
08:06
drop in number of listeners.
08:10
Um, and when I talked to my 17
08:10
year old about what she does,
08:14
she's not a radio listener.
08:16
She's certainly on Spotify
08:16
with a playlist or Tik
08:18
TOK with her friends.
08:20
And it's because all the music
08:20
they listened to sadly, uh,
08:24
can not be played on the radio.
08:26
Is it maybe podcasting?
08:27
Hasn't got that censorship and
08:27
they can find stuff that is
08:30
actually more aligned to what
08:30
they think and feel these days.
08:34
Yeah.
08:34  James
I don't know how much.
08:35
To do with saucy language and,
08:35
um, and having a Jeff thing.
08:39
Um, but I do think that, um, if
08:39
we think about radio as being
08:44
a thing to, um, deliver music,
08:44
which we used to think of radio
08:49
as being in the past, certainly,
08:49
you know, 20 years or so ago,
08:52
radio was the predominant way
08:52
that people found new music.
08:56
Now, of course, it's
08:56
YouTube and it's taken.
08:58
And it's, um, Facebook and
08:58
it's, you know, everything else.
09:02
So really, you know, if
09:02
you're a music radio station
09:05
and the thing that you do is
09:05
play 10 great songs in a row.
09:07
Well, good luck to you
09:07
because, um, I mean, that
09:10
might be working for you
09:10
now, but it won't be working
09:12
for your, I don't think
09:12
in five or 10 years time.
09:14
And it was yet more
09:14
Edison research data.
09:18
So it was showing the amount
09:18
of speech that is consumed
09:22
particularly by young people
09:22
has really significantly
09:25
increased as well.
09:27
I mean, I think, you know,
09:27
overall we're listening to
09:29
less music than we ever have.
09:30
Um, but that's sort of one
09:30
side, but I think also, you
09:33
know, music is just not a
09:33
thing that radio does over
09:37
everybody else now, perhaps
09:37
that used to be in the olden
09:40
days, but certainly isn't now.
09:42
So I think that there's
09:42
a, you know, change.
09:45
Uh, in terms of that, yeah.
09:46
There is
09:47  Sam
now talking about music
09:47
and being able to play music
09:50
online inside your podcasts.
09:52
People always ask how
09:52
can you license music
09:55
for your intro and outro?
09:57
You caught up with somebody
09:57
who knows a lot about
09:59
this, James, didn't he?
10:00
Yeah,
10:00  James
I did.
10:00
So, um, one of the most
10:00
popular pages on pod news is a
10:04
page, which is how can I play
10:04
commercial music on my podcast?
10:07
And it's basically a 12 minute.
10:11
Uh, article, which says
10:11
the word no, in lots
10:14
of entertaining ways.
10:16
No, you can't.
10:17
No, you can't use it in terms
10:17
of fair use of probably no,
10:20
you can't use it in terms
10:20
of, you know, just playing 30
10:23
seconds, all that kind of stuff.
10:25
Um, but, um, there are some
10:25
podcasts out there who are
10:29
very good at licensing music
10:29
and you'd have thought that
10:33
it would be really easy
10:33
and simple if you listen to
10:35
people, but it really isn't.
10:37
Um, Clara, the music
10:37
for Paul Simon.
10:40
Audio biography miracle
10:40
and wonder conversations
10:43
with Paul Simon, which is
10:43
out now was not very easy.
10:48
It turns out Winslow, bright
10:48
spearheaded, the licensing
10:52
and music supervision.
10:53
She cleared over 67 songs
10:53
over eight months for a
10:57
five-hour audio book recorded
10:57
in nine sessions and she
11:01
works for premier music.
11:03
Premier
11:04  Winslow
music group is a
11:04
music supervision company.
11:07
We specialize in music
11:07
for advertising, film
11:10
and TV and podcasts.
11:13
We work with various agencies.
11:15
We work with directors.
11:16
We work with production
11:16
companies, film studios,
11:20
and then anyone.
11:22
Which has many people
11:22
creating podcasts these
11:24  James
days.
11:25
So let's focus on this.
11:26
Paul Simon audio biography,
11:26
it's called miracle and
11:29
wonder it's a five-hour
11:29
audio book, 67 songs in it.
11:33
You spent eight months
11:33
clearing those songs.
11:36
That it seems a large
11:36
chunk of time for this.
11:40
So can we just go
11:40
back to basics?
11:43
First of all, if
11:43
I have a podcast.
11:46
Yes.
11:47
I have read on the internet
11:47
that I can just use up
11:50
to 30 seconds of any song
11:50
and that's just fine.
11:53
And nobody will complain.
11:55
Is that Fu
11:56  Winslow
on the internet
11:56
said that that's not true.
12:00
That's definitely not true.
12:03
I am certainly not a specialist
12:03
when it comes to fair use.
12:06
I.
12:07
I push everyone.
12:09
If they have a fair use argument
12:09
towards lawyers who specialize
12:13
in that, but when it comes
12:13
to using music and a podcast,
12:17
generally speaking, unless.
12:19
Unless the lawyer that you work
12:19
with can specifically say a
12:23
reason that a song can be deemed
12:23
or considered fair use, um, or
12:28
that that's a stance that you
12:28
can be willing and comfortable
12:31
to stand behind without that
12:31
the music should always be
12:35
licensed, unless even if that's
12:35
a gratis license, even if that's
12:38
an agreement with the owners
12:38
and artists, that there is no
12:43
fee, but it's understood that
12:43
the artist has signed off on.
12:48  James
Yeah.
12:48
Well, we'll come back to those
12:48
in a minute, but so really
12:51
you do always need to ask
12:51
permission and there are at
12:55
least two sense of people aren't
12:55
there that you need to ask for
12:58
permission, music publishers
12:58
and the record company.
13:01
If I got that about right.
13:02  Winslow
Yep.
13:02
That's correct.
13:03
Um, and sometimes there can be
13:03
multiple publishers on a song.
13:07
So generally speaking,
13:07
there's often one.
13:10
Record label.
13:11
Sometimes if there's two
13:11
artists, think of two
13:15
contemporary modern artists
13:15
now make a song together.
13:18
Oftentimes both of their
13:18
record labels own 50% of that.
13:22
It's a split.
13:23
But generally speaking,
13:23
there's often one record label
13:27
involved, and then there can be
13:27
multiple publishers depending
13:29
on how many songwriters are
13:31  James
on the song.
13:31
Right.
13:32
So how do I find out
13:32
the publishers and
13:34
the record company?
13:35
It must be obvious just looking
13:35
at the CD, but there are no
13:38
such things as CDs anymore
13:39  Winslow
over.
13:41
Yeah, well, nowadays I
13:41
do feel like it's much
13:44
easier than it used to be.
13:45
You can oftentimes go on.
13:47
The performing rights,
13:47
societies, websites like
13:50
BMI or ASCAP, see SAC
13:50
PRS is the UK equivalent.
13:55
So every country has their
13:55
own equivalent, but, um, you
13:59
can go on BMI or ASCAP, for
13:59
example, and type in the name
14:03
of the song and their databases
14:03
are getting better every day.
14:06
Generally speaking, you can
14:06
find the writer info there.
14:10
Um, if it's something that's.
14:12
Four or older, or maybe
14:12
the rights have changed
14:15
over and that's not up to
14:15
date that definitely can
14:18
require some slew thing.
14:20
Um, and some detective work,
14:20
we certainly pride ourselves
14:23
on being great detectives
14:23
at our company, as we often
14:27
can't really just stop it.
14:29
No, we can't find
14:29
this information.
14:30
We have to always, you
14:30
know, continue to see that.
14:33
So
14:33  James
you find publisher
14:33
probably more than one record
14:37
companies, normally one,
14:37
but probably more than one.
14:39
In terms of the Paul
14:39
Simon work, I'm guessing
14:42
it was relatively easy.
14:43
Has he been with the
14:43
same rocket company?
14:46
All the way
14:46  Winslow
through.
14:47
So he actually just sold his
14:47
publishing rights to Sony,
14:50
a very big deal that he did
14:50
with, with Sony ATV, uh, for
14:54
his entire publishing catalog.
14:56
But that happened really
14:56
this year and that goes
14:58
into effect in the new year.
15:00
So it was interesting
15:00
coming on when we did,
15:03
because we're sort of in the
15:03
middle of this transition.
15:05
And then as far as his master
15:05
recording, almost all of
15:09
his master recordings and.
15:11
I would say majority of the
15:11
master recordings that we used
15:14
for this project were all with
15:14
Sony on the master side as well.
15:19
There are several songs
15:19
where it's a collaboration
15:22
or where there's a co-writer
15:22
or something like that.
15:24
I mean, he really did write
15:24
most of his work, but there
15:27
are several instances where
15:27
it required other approval
15:31
rights with such a big artist.
15:35
With someone who has such
15:35
a robust catalog and where
15:37
we're licensing so many songs,
15:37
um, I would say on both the
15:42
publishing and the master side,
15:42
there were definitely, even
15:45
though it was just going to two
15:45
parties in that case, Sony TV
15:50
and Sony music entertainment,
15:50
there were a lot of layers
15:53
internally that we had to
15:53
work through and aligning on
15:57
fees and aligning on terms
15:57
and rights and all of that.
16:01
And, um, Making sure
16:01
everyone internally at both
16:05
of those companies where.
16:07
Uh, proving what we were
16:07
requesting or, you know, that,
16:09
that we were managing all
16:09
expectations, um, with both
16:14
our client and then, you know,
16:14
with the various layers of
16:16
approvals at the publisher and
16:18  James
label, uh, generally
16:18
because you clearly can't talk
16:21
about this particular client,
16:21
w how are the costs worked
16:25
out for this sort of thing?
16:27
And I'm really thinking here
16:27
around podcasting, but obviously
16:31
audio books are, I guess, going
16:31
to be a little bit different.
16:34
It all
16:35  Winslow
comes down to how
16:35
long a project is going to
16:39
live online, where it's going
16:39
to live, you know, the various
16:42
terms that you're requesting.
16:43
So if you're requesting
16:43
something for one year that
16:46
might have one set of costs,
16:46
whereas if you request
16:49
something for five years or
16:49
in perpetuity or 10 years,
16:53
then those fees often change.
16:55
That's sort of, I would
16:55
say the biggest variable.
16:58
With major labels.
17:00
There's oftentimes a bit of
17:00
a threshold, I would say in
17:03
terms of what they're willing
17:03
to consider, even if you're
17:06
saying, okay, well, we actually
17:06
want to only license something
17:09
for two months or six months.
17:11
Like even if you limit
17:11
the terms significantly,
17:14
There does kind of come
17:14
an admin piece with that.
17:18
And, and also they want to
17:18
make sure that they're paying
17:20
their artists appropriately.
17:23
The, the, I would say the term
17:23
is the biggest factor in, in
17:27
fee, but generally speaking,
17:27
like even if you start to limit
17:31
the terms, there is sort of a
17:31
threshold when you're working
17:34
with some of these major
17:34
labels and major publisher.
17:37  James
And then of course,
17:37
you've got the issue that
17:38
a podcast is available for
17:38
free, uh, typically and, uh,
17:43
available without any rights
17:43
management on there as well.
17:46
So of the things that you
17:46
also have to agree in terms
17:49
of, I will only use 45
17:49
seconds of this track, or
17:52
I will use the instrumental
17:52
rather than the song version
17:55
or, or that sort of thing.
17:57  Winslow
So with any use
17:57
that we do, whether it's.
18:01
Whether it's a movie or an
18:01
advertisement or a podcast,
18:05
we always have to specify
18:05
how the song is being used.
18:07
So whether it's the instrumental
18:07
version, lyrical version,
18:11
what either the sort of scene
18:11
description is, or the context
18:16
of the use, if it's, um, Ariana
18:16
Grande's is going to be on the
18:19
episode, and this is her intro.
18:21
And so a song of hers plays
18:21
underneath that, or whether
18:24
it's John legend is talking
18:24
about Marvin Gaye and.
18:29
And they play a clip of God
18:29
to give it up for context
18:33
of, you know, the way that
18:33
he's describing his vocals
18:35
or something like that.
18:37
Every uses is different.
18:39
And generally speaking, the
18:39
rights holders and the artists
18:44
and the writers or the estates
18:44
of those parties want to know
18:47
the actual context of the use.
18:50
Um, something could be
18:50
approved for one type of use
18:53
and under one consideration,
18:53
whereas it could be denied.
18:57
If the estate of someone
18:57
didn't like the way that it
19:01
was portrayed or discussed
19:01
or something like that.
19:03
So we always have to
19:03
provide all of that info.
19:06
Um, the length of the
19:06
use, the type of use
19:08
the scene description.
19:10
And then, like I said, the, the
19:10
term and whether it's one year
19:13
or five years or six months,
19:13
and then where it's going to
19:16
live, is it living only on.
19:18
Apple podcasts or is it
19:18
on every podcast platform?
19:21
Is there a podcast platform
19:21
that, or is it available on
19:24
the website of the podcast?
19:26
Um, is it being used on
19:26
Instagram for social teasers?
19:30
Like all of those are things
19:30
that we have to negotiate
19:33
when we go to clear the
19:33
rights for the media.
19:36  James
This is not
19:36
sounding easy so far.
19:38
I can see why you spent eight
19:38
months doing all of this work.
19:42
Um, when I used to buy music
19:42
a long, long time ago now,
19:46
of course, I just use a
19:46
YouTube music or Spotify the
19:49
same as everybody else does.
19:50
But when I used to go and buy
19:50
music, I remember finding a.
19:53
Excellent.
19:54
A record store in my hometown,
19:54
which sold gray imports.
20:00
So instead of buying Michael
20:00
Jackson's thriller for, you
20:03
know, six pounds for the
20:03
cassette, I ended up buying
20:06
Michael Jackson thriller
20:06
for three pounds for the
20:08
cassette, but it happens to
20:08
be published by, I think the
20:11
record label was epic, Greece
20:11
and everything was in the Greek
20:14
language, but nevertheless,
20:14
it was the same recording.
20:17
I'm wondering how this works.
20:19
Internationally as well.
20:20
I mean, clearly this audio book
20:20
I'm guessing is going to be
20:23
made available in more than just
20:23
the U S but clearly podcasts
20:26
are international in, in scope.
20:28
What's the deal there?
20:30
Oh,
20:30  Winslow
it depends on
20:30
how the rights are, are
20:33
distributed internationally.
20:34
I would say like with Michael
20:34
Jackson's thriller, that was
20:37
definitely probably a bootleg
20:37
and they did not own that.
20:40
They just, they just made a,
20:40
you know, that was just a,
20:44
um, Bootleg like re like copy
20:44
when we're figuring out who
20:48
owns the rights to something
20:48
we're always going to the
20:51
original source and figuring
20:51
out if this recording was
20:54
released in 1959 on this record.
20:57
Who owns that record label now,
20:57
who would the rights now be
21:02
owned by, based on the series
21:02
of purchases and acquisitions
21:07
and all of these things.
21:09
And that goes for
21:09
the publishing too.
21:11
It's really, you
21:11
know, who retained.
21:13
Now to the original master,
21:13
because that's what your, your
21:16
licensing and any replica would
21:16
need, unless it's a rerecord.
21:21
And that's a new version,
21:21
you know, I did a cover of,
21:24
um, all you need is love.
21:26
Like my version I would own
21:26
from the master recording,
21:29
but the Beatles own their, you
21:29
know, their master and then
21:32
they own the publishing rights.
21:34
So, but if it's just, you
21:34
know, I somehow released.
21:38
A compilation album and
21:38
all you need is love by the
21:41
Beatles happens to be on it.
21:42
Like, I don't own
21:42
that master recording.
21:44
It's the original, you know,
21:44
the original master recording
21:47
is still owned by whomever
21:47
released that, that version.
21:51
So it is a lot of detective work
21:51
and certain sort of figuring out
21:56
who currently owns the rights.
21:57
And then also, you know,
21:57
generally speaking, when
22:00
we reach out to our.
22:03
Contacts that the labels and
22:03
the publishers, they can tell
22:06
you what they actually control.
22:08
I mean, I was working with
22:08
somebody today and they said,
22:11
you know, we control 50% of
22:11
this recording in the U S and I
22:15
wrote back and I said, the other
22:15
publisher who's listed on this
22:18
song confirmed that if this, if
22:18
this is an instrumental, Then
22:23
they don't have the rights.
22:24
So I believe that you actually
22:24
control a hundred percent in
22:28
the U S and they wrote back
22:28
and they said, oh, okay.
22:31
In that case, we do and control
22:31
a hundred percent of the U S but
22:34
globally, we control only 50%.
22:36
And I said, that's fine.
22:37
My use is only.
22:39
So, I don't even think I had
22:39
any of those global rights.
22:40
So, you know, it, there
22:40
are oftentimes territory
22:44
splits because especially
22:44
with older recordings there
22:47
pieces were sold off and
22:47
different pieces were bought.
22:49
I mean, you still, you know,
22:49
tons of labels and publishers
22:52
are selling off pieces or
22:52
buying catalogs and all of that.
22:56
And some people don't
22:56
even know what they own.
22:57
There's so much music out there.
22:58
So a lot of it, you know,
22:58
we oftentimes have to go to
23:01
people and say, I know you
23:01
have this, I know you own mess.
23:05
Help me
23:06  James
help you.
23:07
One of the things that
23:07
podcasting has an interesting,
23:11
uh, has an interesting
23:11
relationship with is, you
23:14
know, download numbers
23:14
aren't necessarily the
23:16
same as plain numbers.
23:18
You know, aren't necessarily
23:18
the same as the total amount
23:20
of listeners who heard it.
23:22
What sort of information
23:22
do the, uh, do do the music
23:27
rights holders wants to
23:27
know in terms of usage?
23:30
Is it, you know, this, this
23:30
got 200,000 downloads or.
23:35
What's the deal
23:35
there in the film
23:36  Winslow
and TV space, we have
23:36
to often times advise what the
23:41
total budget is for a film, what
23:41
the music budget is or what the
23:45
percentage is, um, of the budget
23:45
that's going towards music.
23:51
So these are questions
23:51
that we get asked all the
23:54
time on other projects.
23:57
I feel like it will make
23:57
sense eventually for
24:01
podcasts to move into that
24:01
kind of space, um, to have
24:07
licensing fees be partially,
24:07
I guess, determined based on.
24:13
The number of downloads
24:13
or the ad revenue and all
24:17
of these different things.
24:18
I think the business has
24:18
certainly boomed in the last few
24:21
years, but given how democratic
24:21
the platform is that doesn't
24:24
necessarily mean that every
24:24
podcast is making the same
24:28
amount of money or has the same
24:28
amount of revenue or spends
24:31
the same amount on production.
24:33
Right?
24:33
So not every.
24:36
Labeling publisher is asking
24:36
for that information right
24:39
now, but I can definitely see.
24:40
And frankly, not every podcast
24:40
wants to supply that information
24:45
or can supply that information,
24:45
but I can see a world where.
24:49
Maybe that information is
24:49
exchanged more in order
24:54
to help determine more
24:54
appropriate numbers, um,
24:58
when it comes to licensing.
24:59
So
25:00  James
if you were able to, um,
25:00
get direct links into podcast
25:05
hosting companies to, to get
25:05
the numbers directly, uh,
25:10
Potentially be a help in terms
25:10
of at least reporting back to
25:14
the record companies and the
25:14
publishers of how much, uh, how
25:19
much usage something is getting.
25:21  Winslow
Yeah.
25:21
I mean, I'm just thinking,
25:21
like, if you have a brand new
25:23
podcast that you're launching
25:23
and you just don't know how
25:26
it's going to do that might
25:26
be something that, okay.
25:30
Season one, these are the,
25:30
the rates that you go for, but
25:33
you know, you have to provide.
25:36
All of the data, or maybe
25:36
not even see, you know,
25:39
the first few episodes, you
25:39
agree to a certain rate,
25:41
but after a while you have
25:41
to provide certain data.
25:43
I will say that the costs
25:43
can be obviously variable,
25:47
variable, depending on the song,
25:47
depending on the rights holders.
25:50
And again, depending on the
25:50
term, but sometimes I do
25:54
wonder if it would be helpful
25:54
to have a better insight into
25:58
what the ad revenue is like.
26:00
And then also what the
26:00
percentage is in terms of.
26:04
The total production costs.
26:05
And then what, what the
26:05
licensing fees are, you know,
26:09
from a percentage perspective,
26:09
just to see, like, do these
26:12
fees feel fair based on the
26:12
usage or do they feel so
26:19
distant and out of sort of.
26:22
Yeah.
26:22
You know, out of, out of
26:22
line with the rest of the
26:24  James
project.
26:25
Yeah.
26:25
As I, as I would imagine that
26:25
there's a big difference between
26:28
someone that just would like to
26:28
use 30 seconds of AC DC's back
26:32
in black at the beginning of
26:32
their podcast and someone who is
26:35
making a, you know, tremendous.
26:38
Um, uh, you know, enriched
26:38
eight hour, uh, audio book,
26:42
um, you know, about, about
26:42
something else, you know, I'm
26:45
sure that there are plenty of
26:45
podcasters out there who would
26:47
be perfectly happy to spend $250
26:47
on a little, on a little bit of
26:53
music, but I'm not necessarily
26:53
sure it works that way.
26:56
Not, not quite yet.
26:57  Winslow
Well, and there's
26:57
also, obviously, you know,
27:00
every artist has the right to
27:00
consider how their music is
27:04
used and how it's synchronized.
27:05
So, you know, you do have.
27:08
W the, the artists have
27:08
to have that approval.
27:11
And, um, they have every
27:11
right to say, well, I don't
27:14
want my music and that, you
27:14
know, in that opening of that
27:18
podcast, like whatever it
27:18
may be, but at the same time,
27:21
like, I mean more so in the.
27:24
Indie films.
27:25
When you go to license music,
27:25
those, those licenses are
27:29
priced differently than the
27:29
newest James Bond movie.
27:33
You know, like they're,
27:33
they're there, the funding
27:37
and the overall budget.
27:38
Like those are things
27:38
that are considered and
27:40
granted, those uses can
27:40
be any use, can be denied.
27:43
Right.
27:44
Um, whether it's because of
27:44
the fees or the creative or.
27:48
Um, the context, whatever it may
27:48
be, but it is something that I
27:51
think about a lot just in terms
27:51
of the, the variable scale.
27:55  James
Yeah, sure.
27:56
And on the artist,
27:56
one last question.
27:58
If I've gone and an interview
27:58
to band and the band says,
28:01
sure, you can use my new
28:01
track in your podcast.
28:04
Do they actually have the
28:04
rights themselves to say that?
28:07
Such a
28:08  Winslow
good, great question.
28:11
Um, nine times out of
28:11
10, I would say no.
28:14
Um, They don't have
28:14
the sole, right.
28:18
Oftentimes, so generally I
28:18
would say there's, you know, if
28:22
they're commercially releasing
28:22
music, then it's probably
28:27
something to consider that they
28:27
would be signed to a record
28:30
label and then potentially have
28:30
a publishing deal in place.
28:34
If you and I are in a band
28:34
together, and we're both
28:36
signed to different publishers,
28:36
that's two publishers.
28:39
And then we have our label
28:39
that, you know, technically
28:42
owns the master recording.
28:44
Now they come to us for
28:44
approval rights, because
28:47
we are the creators of the
28:47
song, but we do not have
28:51
the sole right to grant, you
28:51
know, the use of the project.
28:56  James
There's a reason why
28:56
somebody has signed a contract
28:58
with a record company.
28:59
Right,
28:59  Winslow
right, right, right.
29:01
And, you know, We might
29:01
say, oh, that's fine.
29:04
Included for free.
29:06
Whereas our label might
29:06
be like, um, no, the going
29:09
rate for this is X amount.
29:11
And even just to admin
29:11
it, it requires X amount.
29:14
And, you know, we,
29:14
we don't want to.
29:18
You know, we don't, we don't
29:18
want to do it for less now,
29:21
obviously like it helps to have
29:21
the blessing of the band, but
29:24
technically the kind of next
29:24
step there would be to reach
29:28
out to the label and say, you
29:28
know, we have the blessing
29:29
of the band and here are the
29:29
band is on copier or here's
29:33
the correspondence from the
29:33
band or whatever it may be.
29:35  James
So your advice would
29:35
be, if somebody wanted to
29:38
make a music documentary,
29:38
your, your advice would be
29:41
well call premier music group
29:41
and we'll help you, I guess.
29:44
But it certainly sounds
29:44
as if it's going to be
29:46
a bit more complicated.
29:48
Originally thought.
29:49
Yeah.
29:50  Winslow
I mean, my, my
29:50
colleagues worked on summer of
29:54
soul and they worked very, very
29:54
closely with Questlove and they
29:59
worked very closely with all
29:59
of the various rates, holders
30:02
and everything, but you know,
30:02
all of that required approvals.
30:05
That's a, that's a
30:05
visual documentary.
30:07
And even with Paul
30:07
Simon, I mean, A creator
30:12
really of this project.
30:13
It's, you know, he and
30:13
Malcolm and Bruce all speak
30:16
very closely together.
30:17
And even, so we had to go
30:17
through all of the proper
30:21
channels to get all of the
30:21
rights to all of the songs
30:25
included, whether they were his
30:25
songs or other people's songs.
30:28
Because again, he has a
30:28
record label that owns those
30:31
rights, and then he has
30:31
publishing companies that all.
30:35
On those rights.
30:36
Of course, it, it helps to be
30:36
able to say, he's obviously
30:39
very closely he's beyond
30:39
closely involved in the project.
30:43
You know, that's like
30:43
a whole other step.
30:45
If you're asking someone
30:45
to be involved or if you
30:47
have a project that you're
30:47
trying to do, um, without
30:50
someone's involvement.
30:52
And it's just about them, like
30:52
that obviously can be much more
30:55
complicated, but I would say.
30:58
Generally speaking, unless
30:58
somebody owns all of the rights
31:03
to their own music outright,
31:03
then you, you do still have to
31:07
work through those channels.
31:08
Having them involved can be
31:08
super helpful and they can also
31:12
be extremely knowledgeable when
31:12
you're working through decades
31:15
of music as with Paul's music.
31:17
We were, you know, he's
31:17
been recording music for
31:20
a very, very long time.
31:22
Um, so we were able to work
31:22
closely with his management and.
31:25
Work through some songs where
31:25
we weren't sure who had the
31:28
rights to certain recordings
31:28
or who had approval rates.
31:32
So obviously they were extremely
31:32
supportive and helpful in
31:35
that way, but we did still
31:35
have to like go through
31:38
all the proper channels,
31:38
which is why it took eight
31:40  James
months.
31:41
Well, Winslow, bright
31:41
spearheaded, the licensing and
31:44
music supervision of miracle
31:44
and wonder conversation.
31:48
Paul Simon it's out now from
31:48
all good audio bookstores.
31:51
Is that what you say these days?
31:52
I don't know.
31:53
I don't understand this.
31:55
Uh, yeah, I think that
31:55
works, uh, Winslow.
31:58
Thank you so much for your time.
32:00
I really appreciate it.
32:01
Of course.
32:02  Winslow
Thank you.
32:02
Great chatting with you.
32:04
So
32:04  Sam
Winslow bright, they
32:04
go and hopefully one day,
32:07
James, it will be a lot
32:07
easier than the time that
32:10
she took eight months to
32:11  James
clear.
32:12
Wow.
32:12
Yeah.
32:13
Well hopefully it will be,
32:13
but I think we understand
32:15
now how complicated it is.
32:17
I mean, and that was clearing
32:17
something for the artists own.
32:21
Audio biography.
32:23
So imagine how
32:23
complicated it must be.
32:25
If you're clearing something
32:25
where the artist isn't involved.
32:29
So absolutely fascinating stuff.
32:30
And I think it reminds me of
32:30
I'm going to podcast movement,
32:34
uh, two or three years ago, and
32:34
hearing some very breathless
32:37
announcements, talking about
32:37
music, licensing, being
32:41
sorted for podcasts, and
32:41
we're still waiting for that.
32:44
It's still not really happening.
32:46
And, uh, I think we
32:46
can understand why.
32:48
Absolutely fascinating.
32:49
Thank you so much Winslow,
32:49
um, for doing that.
32:52
If you want to support her
32:52
and her work, then go and buy
32:55
the audio biography from Paul
32:55
Simon miracle and one day
32:59
conversations with Paul Simon.
33:00  Sam
Now Facebook fake.
33:02
They don't allow
33:02
you to pirate music.
33:04
That's the one thing I
33:04
actually I have found is
33:06
that apple and Spotify, he
33:06
put music into your pod.
33:10
They don't stop you.
33:12
Um, there's no one
33:12
seemingly tracking it.
33:14
Maybe there is, and
33:14
they just don't care.
33:16
But Facebook, they
33:16
police from Facebook.
33:18
Copyright office certainly
33:18
are tracking what you do,
33:21
because if you put your
33:21
podcast, start with any music
33:23
in a, they will certainly
33:23
stop it and take it down.
33:26
Um, but Facebook is growing.
33:29
Now James, if you got your
33:29
podcast up onto Facebook
33:34
already having yes.
33:35  James
So pod news itself
33:35
is available on Facebook.
33:39
You can have a listen, but you
33:39
need to be doing two things.
33:42
Firstly, you need to be on iOS
33:42
because as far as I'm aware,
33:46
it's still not available on
33:46
Android, but secondly, you need
33:48
to be based in the U S so for
33:48
the rest, for the other 96.5% of
33:53
the population tough, but what.
33:57
Really fascinating about
33:57
Facebook is that, um, the amount
34:01
of people consuming podcasts on
34:01
Facebook is really increasing.
34:04
So Tom Webster from Edison
34:04
research, again, reported that
34:10
the data from the last quarter,
34:10
quarter 3 21 showed that 20% of
34:15
people in the U S had listened
34:15
to a podcast on Facebook, the
34:19
same data three months earlier.
34:21
8% so more than doubled, and it
34:21
seems to be doing really well.
34:26
So if you're not on
34:26
Facebook, anyone can add
34:29
a podcast onto Facebook.
34:31
It takes a couple of minutes.
34:32
It's relatively easy, relatively
34:32
simple and straightforward.
34:36
Um, you can listen if
34:36
it's your own podcast and
34:40
everybody can listen if
34:40
you're in the U S on iOS.
34:44
So it's well worth doing.
34:46  Sam
Further reports though,
34:46
that you were talking
34:48
about rains, Brad hill
34:48
reviews, Facebook podcasts.
34:52
So Tom's saying that, you
34:52
know, there's an increase
34:56
in listing on Facebook, but
34:56
reigns Brad hill are when you
35:01
read their report, says in
35:01
summary, click, Facebook's
35:05
not ready for prime time.
35:06
So
35:07  James
who's right.
35:08
Well, I think Brad hill
35:08
is probably right there.
35:10
It's not a great experience.
35:12
Um, you know, I mean,
35:12
podcasts, for example, are in
35:16
a navigational section called
35:16
watch, which is confusing.
35:20
He says, correct.
35:21
It is really confusing to
35:21
press something called watch.
35:25
To something.
35:26
Um, you know, it's got a
35:26
bunch of, uh, of interesting
35:29
things in there, but again,
35:29
you know, a brand who's,
35:31
um, who's a great guy.
35:32
I've known for many, many years.
35:34
He looks into, um, how the
35:34
system works and he's just not
35:39
particularly impressed in terms
35:39
of, um, how the system works.
35:44
Yes.
35:44
Comments are supported
35:44
in every podcast episode.
35:47
He says, It uses rather
35:47
confusing follow and
35:51
subscribe buttons, which
35:51
kind of do different things.
35:55
And why would you have
35:55
a subscribe button as
35:57
well as a follow button?
35:58
That kind of makes
35:58
very little point.
36:01
Um, and also he says that, uh,
36:01
Facebook has basically hidden
36:05
podcasting at the moment.
36:06
It's a hidden way out of.
36:08
Practically guaranteeing
36:08
that few will find it.
36:11
So Brad, isn't a
36:11
particular fan of it.
36:14
Um, and uh, certainly the
36:14
numbers, the download numbers
36:18
that I'm seeing so far are
36:18
not particularly high, but
36:20
it may well be that it's the
36:20
same as Spotify to a degree.
36:23
And certainly Amazon
36:23
podcasts in terms of.
36:27
Be a place to get podcasts
36:27
in front of people that
36:30
don't listen to podcasts.
36:31
And then perhaps they
36:31
then, um, migrate over to
36:35
using a decent podcast app.
36:36
So perhaps that's how
36:36
it's going to work
36:38  Sam
be dice.
36:38
If they turn it on outside
36:38
the U S as well, that'll be
36:41  James
helpful.
36:42
Wouldn't it?
36:42
And I don't understand.
36:43
I simply do not understand
36:43
why Facebook one meter are
36:47
not turning it on outside.
36:48
The U S there's no
36:48
legal reason to do that.
36:52
Um, you know what I mean,
36:52
even if you just turn it on
36:54
and the may be a language
36:54
translation conversation,
36:57
but even if you just turn it
36:57
on for, um, people using an,
37:01
an English device, then that
37:01
kind of work, I don't really
37:04
understand why Facebook, uh,
37:04
dragging their heels in terms.
37:08  Sam
Yeah.
37:08
Uh, one person though,
37:08
did see an interesting
37:12
feature coming to Facebook.
37:14
A subscriptions to podcast
37:14
may be coming to Facebook.
37:17
EagleEye Twitter.
37:17
Steven Robles has spotted a
37:17
subscribe button, which is
37:20
what you were saying earlier.
37:22
And again, if you, I, I did
37:22
read the report from Brad hill.
37:26
Um, it seems that the
37:26
follow button is for the
37:30
page that you're on and the
37:30
subscribers for the podcast.
37:34
That you want to subscribe to.
37:36  James
Oh, okay.
37:37
Whereas the course on apple
37:37
follow is for the podcast.
37:40
Yes.
37:40
And subscribers, if
37:40
you want to pay yes.
37:45
This isn't going to
37:45
get confusing at all.
37:46
Is it
37:48  Sam
once Facebook turn on
37:48
the money-making part of
37:51
it, then they'll follow up.
37:52
Well, I'm sure.
37:54
Uh, naming
37:55  James
convention.
37:55
Yeah, no, indeed.
37:57
None of that makes any sense.
37:58  Sam
Now, moving on the
37:58
BBC plans to monetize
38:01
its podcast as well.
38:02
Uh, we had some analysis from
38:02
Dan Barnett, um, and he looked
38:07
at what the BBC is doing
38:07
beyond the shores of the UK.
38:10
What was he
38:11  James
thinking?
38:12
So he's been looking at how
38:12
the BBC is, um, uh, trying to
38:15
make money out of its podcasts,
38:15
why they have to make money.
38:19
They're doing to make money
38:19
and so on and so forth.
38:21
He says that they're in a
38:21
weird place, um, where it needs
38:25
a certain level of success
38:25
to justify its existence,
38:28
but too much success would
38:28
result in other content
38:30
providers complaining that
38:30
it's abusing its position.
38:33
He's got that dead right
38:33
from the couple of years
38:36
that I worked at the BBC,
38:36
uh, it's really difficult
38:39
to try and work out exactly
38:39
what's going on there.
38:42
It's.
38:42
Difficult that you can't
38:42
be very successful because
38:46
then people shout at you.
38:48
Um, but, uh, if you're not
38:48
quite successful enough,
38:53
um, then people say that
38:53
it's bad value for money,
38:56
and it's just really hard.
38:58
You're in a no win situation.
39:00
If you work there.
39:01
And as an example of that, Jon
39:01
Ronson today has apologized
39:05
to audiences who are unable
39:05
to hear his BBC podcast.
39:09
Um, he's said on Twitter,
39:09
it'll be freely and easily
39:12
available in the new year.
39:14
And he's very embarrassed
39:14
at the fact that, uh, quite
39:16
a lot of his audiences BA
39:16
is being geo locked out.
39:20
It's on BBC sounds in
39:20
the UK only it's called
39:22
things fell apart.
39:24
It's promoted on BBC
39:24
sounds across the world.
39:26
But the play button doesn't
39:26
work genius, well done,
39:29
BBC and other triumph.
39:31
And on apple podcasts, it's
39:31
available as a paid subscriber.
39:36
But in the U S only.
39:37
And again, there is
39:37
absolutely no reason why
39:40
that should be the case.
39:41
They've got the global rights.
39:43
Of course, they've
39:43
got the global rights.
39:45
Why on earth are they doing
39:45
this as a paid for thing in the
39:48
U S only that makes no sense
39:48
whatsoever, but then trying to
39:51
second guess the BBC on many
39:51
things, uh, is quite difficult.
39:55  Sam
Maybe, and Facebook
39:55
should get together and
39:57
understand geopolitical ranges.
40:01
Yeah, maybe who knows.
40:03
That's an interesting
40:03
conference now.
40:05
Podcasts apps may be buying
40:05
ads for your podcast in
40:08
Google search without you
40:08
knowing someone's been
40:11
buying podcasts apps, haven't
40:11
they with your name, James?
40:14
Yes.
40:15  James
Um, that was a bit weird.
40:16
So if you do a search for
40:16
podcasts, Um, particularly
40:20
if you're in the U S but also
40:20
if you're in the UK and a
40:23
few other countries, then you
40:23
will see a cast advertising.
40:26
They're saying you can
40:26
listen to pod news in a
40:29
cast, which is kind of, okay.
40:32
It just leads to a web player.
40:33
It's not particularly helpful
40:33
to pod news, but still though
40:37
we are, um, the podcast app
40:37
is also advertising Amazon
40:40
music though is advertising
40:40
that you can listen to our
40:43
podcast for just $7 99.
40:46
Which is slightly misleading,
40:46
I think because, um, uh, you
40:49
can listen to pod news for
40:49
free even on Amazon music.
40:53
Um, so it's just a bit weird.
40:56
I mean, it's not against
40:56
Google's terms of Google.
40:58
Google can use that trademark
40:58
if they want to, or Google
41:03
advertisers can, but, uh,
41:03
from my point of view is kind
41:07
of not great to see lots of
41:07
advertising, uh, particularly
41:11
advertising that is could
41:11
well be a little bit confused.
41:15
And claim that, you
41:15
know, podcasts cost, um,
41:19
quite a lot of money when
41:19
in reality they don't.
41:22
So, yeah, that's a bit
41:22
of a weird one, so, okay.
41:24  Sam
Powerful it being weird.
41:26
James, why are they doing
41:27  James
it?
41:27
Well, they're doing it
41:27
obviously because they want
41:29
to drag as many people to
41:29
use their app as possible.
41:32
Whether it's a cast or the
41:32
podcast app or Amazon music.
41:35
I mean, a cast is a bit weird.
41:37
They do have an app, but
41:37
really is that really what
41:40
they want people to use?
41:42
Don't really necessarily see
41:42
that as being the fundamental
41:46
plan that a cast has.
41:47
Um, uh, so yeah, I, I,
41:47
you know, that's probably
41:51
why they're doing it.
41:52
Um, and you can well see
41:52
that, you know, Amazon
41:55
music on a wider scale.
41:57
Maybe what they've done is
41:57
they've basically ingested
42:00
the entire catalog of Amazon
42:00
music and forgotten to take
42:04
the podcasts out of Amazon.
42:06
Um, when they've put that
42:06
particular advertising
42:09
campaign into Google
42:09
ad words, I don't know.
42:11
But, um, however it's working.
42:13
Um, yeah.
42:14
Um, I can't really think that
42:14
I'm particularly happy about it.
42:17
So you're not planning
42:17
on retiring then.
42:20
Oh, I didn't say that.
42:22
Um, but I think
42:24  Sam
I was thinking from
42:24
the proceeds of all of this
42:26
advertising revenue that
42:26
you're getting shared with.
42:28
Well, uh,
42:29  James
yes, but of course
42:29
I'm not getting any
42:31
of the money for that.
42:32
Uh, it's just purely
42:32
advertising that goes to Google.
42:36
Um, so I'm not saying any
42:36
of the money nor would I
42:38
be getting any of the money
42:38
from, um, Amazon music.
42:41
If people post it up
42:41
$7, 99 or seven pounds,
42:44
99, which is even worse.
42:46
Um, so, uh, yeah.
42:49
You know, I, I'm kind
42:49
of there thinking,
42:51
okay, well, fair enough.
42:53
But, uh, you know, a
42:53
heads up, we'll be nice.
42:56
I think
42:57  Sam
now they're not the
42:57
only ones who are starting
42:59
to put a bit of money
42:59
around other podcasts,
43:02
uh, Eagle eye Christmas.
43:03
Siena's spotted that, uh, the.
43:06
Desktop version of Spotify
43:06
is now got a little
43:09
section for sponsors.
43:12
Now, I think it's a test cause
43:12
it seems that potluck news,
43:16
when I looked it up is sponsored
43:16
by, uh, HBO, max Squarespace,
43:21
Casper, and smile direct club.
43:23
But I don't think
43:23
we're sponsored by
43:24  James
any of those.
43:24
They are not sponsors.
43:26
Um, and there's also a
43:26
weird, sort of a strange.
43:29
Image above which I
43:29
don't fully understand.
43:33
It's part of a test.
43:34
According to tech crunch, it's
43:34
a episode sponsors section
43:38
for podcasts in the app.
43:39
They are testing it in the U S
43:39
um, with a few different things.
43:44
But, um, yeah, I mean,
43:44
quite why it says that
43:48
Casper and Squarespace has
43:48
supporting this podcast.
43:51
I really don't know.
43:51
Cause they clearly aren't,
43:51
unless those are the ads
43:54
that Spotify is putting
43:54
in front of this podcast.
43:58
If you listen on a Spotify free
43:58
account, which I guess maybe.
44:03
Case in which case
44:03
I'm hooray and we love
44:06
our Casper mattresses.
44:07
Um, but, uh, don't um, I tried
44:07
to, uh, see the particular
44:14
screenshot, which you've shared,
44:14
which will be in our show
44:16
notes, but, um, uh, it's not
44:16
showing up for people down here.
44:20
So maybe, uh, Spotify
44:20
being a bit more fed
44:23
income down here who knows.
44:26  Sam
It would be interesting
44:26
to see whether I did ask Chris
44:28
last night, whether we, as the.
44:31
Podcast owners will be allowed
44:31
to opt-in for which sponsors
44:36
we want on our podcast.
44:38
Uh, or are we going to opt
44:38
in and have a generic, we
44:43
will play sponsors into you
44:43
because you're in a vertical.
44:46
So is it us asking
44:46
for sponsorship or.
44:49
Delivering sponsorship
44:49
against us.
44:51  James
Well, or let's
44:51
put this the other way.
44:54
Uh, and I know the views of both
44:54
Adam Curry and Dave Jones on the
44:59
podcast index, but if there was
44:59
a way that we could highlight
45:02
our sponsors in the RSS feed,
45:02
is that something that would
45:08
be good for podcasting overall?
45:11
Is there a way of us saying, you
45:11
know, um, giving a sponsor tank
45:16
with a link and various other
45:16
things in our podcast feed.
45:19
And if you are a good
45:19
podcast app, you would show
45:23
those pieces of information
45:23
in the podcast app.
45:26
Um, but I mean, uh, you know
45:26
what this is, again, is it's,
45:30
um, it seems to be Spotify
45:30
doing another proprietary thing.
45:34
Another thing where
45:34
they're, you know, holding
45:36
up one finger against.
45:38
RSS and going well, you
45:38
know, we know better.
45:42
And I wonder whether it's that.
45:44
Um, but could you see a future
45:44
where we were actually able
45:48
to just as we can in the
45:48
Buzzsprout dashboards, say
45:52
who our sponsors are, um, also
45:52
be able to, um, carry that
45:57
through, into the RSS feeds
45:57
so that it appears properly.
46:01
In, uh, any participating
46:01
podcast app.
46:05
Um, I know that, um, you
46:05
know, the, um, many of the
46:09
people who are working on
46:09
the new podcast namespace are
46:11
vehemently anti advertising.
46:14
Um, but it might this be a more
46:14
pragmatic solution to help those
46:19
podcasters that do take money
46:19
out of a sponsorship as well.
46:22
Well,
46:22  Sam
let's see, there'll
46:22
be a post-Christmas haiku.
46:26
Released now your favorite
46:26
time of the week, James.
46:29
It's that time it's
46:29
Brewster ground corner
46:33  James
boost to Graham corner.
46:36
Can't get more top 40 than that.
46:37
It is it's booster Graham
46:37
corner talking about
46:40
money and, uh, thank you
46:40
very much to, um, Adam.
46:44
Pod father who starts with
46:44
happy birthday to pod land.
46:48
I'm thankful for the show
46:48
and both salmon James
46:51
on this Thanksgiving.
46:53
I believe that Thanksgiving is
46:53
some sort of American thing.
46:56
So thank you very much.
46:57
5,000 sets sent using Curio
46:57
caster, but he also has a
47:01
slight criticism for you, Mr.
47:03
Seth, he doesn't eat all
47:04  Sam
day.
47:06
Uh, I missed the questions
47:06
about podcasting today.
47:09
Oh.
47:09
During the Lisa interview.
47:11
What's up with that.
47:11
Yeah.
47:12
I know Adam.
47:13
I actually thought about it and
47:13
other thought, you know what?
47:16
I don't think she's going to
47:16
say that they're doing anything
47:19
with podcasting two dot.
47:20
Oh.
47:20
And.
47:21
I think it was just going
47:21
to be a very simple, no,
47:23
we're not doing this.
47:25
I should have
47:25  James
asked.
47:26
You're right.
47:26
This was the interview last
47:26
week with Lisa LaPorte from
47:30
the Twitter network, um,
47:30
which is well worth a listen.
47:34
And Lisa was kind
47:34
enough to, uh, tweet.
47:38
A link to this podcast.
47:40
So hello to you if you're
47:40
a new new user, because of
47:43
that particular tweet, a good
47:43
of Lisa to have done that.
47:48
Um, yeah, I mean, I think
47:48
we need to be careful.
47:50
This is not the
47:50
podcasting 2.0 podcast.
47:53
I believe that there is
47:53
one of those already.
47:55
Um, and, uh, you know, we need
47:55
to be, I think, careful not to
48:00
just dive down that particular
48:00
rabbit hole, but I think it,
48:04
you know, it is a useful thing,
48:04
which I will certainly ask.
48:07
Uh, every so often when
48:07
I'm doing that, uh, Brian
48:10
of London says you don't
48:10
seem to have a funding tag
48:13
I'm using castomatic, but
48:13
the funding button is gray.
48:16
Brian.
48:17
I think there's a
48:17
good reason for that.
48:18
And the reason for that is
48:18
that POS product don't support
48:21
the funding tag quite yet.
48:22
Uh, it would be
48:22
lovely if they did.
48:24
Um, and, um, we will put a, um,
48:24
a recommendation in that they
48:29
do support the funding tag.
48:31
Um, that will be a good thing,
48:31
but, uh, you will find us
48:34
in all of the usual places.
48:35
I'm sure.
48:36  Sam
Uh, finally mere mortals.
48:38
Thank you.
48:39
Uh, Kyron.
48:40
Very kind of you to say,
48:40
James, I try my best.
48:42
The chat with Adam
48:42
will come out.
48:44
Two weeks time as well.
48:46
Happy birthday to us.
48:48
He says, uh, you in
48:48
James and you become a
48:51
staple of my Fridays.
48:53
Thank you.
48:54
That's
48:54  James
very kind of him talking
48:54
about, um, his, uh, interview
48:57
with Adam Curry, which will
48:57
be out in a couple of weeks.
48:59
So thank you very.
49:01
Uh, for all of those, uh,
49:01
boosts and boost programs.
49:06
If you have a boost button
49:06
in your podcast app,
49:09
then hold it down now.
49:11
And if you don't have a boost
49:11
button in your podcast app,
49:13
you should get a better one, a
49:13
pod news.net/new podcast apps.
49:18  Sam
Now, if I called you.
49:19
Mr beast, James, would
49:19
you understand that?
49:21
Anything of that
49:22  James
sentence?
49:23
I have no.
49:24
The idea about this, Mr.
49:26
Beast person, you've been
49:26
reading something from
49:29
friend of the show, Matt
49:29
Degan and have you not?
49:31  Sam
Yeah, I did unload
49:31
and I'll put my hand
49:34
up and say it like you.
49:35
I had no idea who Mr.
49:36
Bass was, but this week
49:36
Matt wrote something called
49:39
what can audio learn from
49:39
MySpace is video success.
49:42
So I had to obviously shift
49:42
over to YouTube, have a look,
49:46
and the guy is unbelievable.
49:49
Basically creates videos.
49:52
Uh, this week he created a
49:52
video that copied squid game,
49:56
all the games completely.
49:58
He spent over $2 million
49:58
on the set alone.
50:01
He had 456.
50:04
People come along and they
50:04
played the games and the
50:08
winner won 450, $60,000.
50:12
Uh, and it, all, it was
50:12
was a 25 minute video.
50:15
He didn't extend it.
50:17
He didn't build a series.
50:18
He didn't try and
50:18
explain this show.
50:21
He just played, it
50:21
was a one-off show.
50:23  James
And that was it.
50:24
It sounds like a.
50:25
Advertisement for not
50:25
getting the best value
50:28
out of your content there,
50:28
but maybe, maybe I'm being
50:32
cynical, old media person.
50:33
I don't know.
50:35  Sam
That is exactly what
50:35
Matt would call you then.
50:37
Cause what Matt was trying to
50:37
say was that we need to change
50:40
the way we think we, you may,
50:40
Matt probably himself would have
50:44
extended that out and tried to
50:44
sweat the equity or the content.
50:49
But no, this guy's getting
50:49
over 11 billion views in total
50:54  James
tech stuff.
50:54
I'm, I'm quite excited, Sam
50:56  Sam
for the first time ever.
50:58
I'm not because I have
50:58
no idea what the next
51:00
sentence I'm reading means.
51:03
Umbrella has been updated
51:03
to version 0.4 0.9.
51:07
Haley part is due to be released
51:07
this week by Dave Jones.
51:10
I.
51:11
No idea what this is all about.
51:13  James
Umbro is a piece of
51:13
software that allows you to
51:17
run your own Bitcoin node.
51:19
So your own bank in your
51:19
own house keeps your
51:22
Bitcoins nice and safe.
51:24
And of course, SATs that are
51:24
part of a value for value
51:28
for podcasting, uh, is part
51:28
of, of course is part of.
51:32
So, um, umbrella
51:32
allows you to do that.
51:35
What heli pad is, is it gives
51:35
you a, um, uh, an overview.
51:42
If you like, see, see what
51:42
we did, the helipad overview.
51:46
How many pat gives you an
51:46
overview of all of the boosts
51:50
and boosts programs that you
51:50
have been receiving, because if
51:54
you have one of these umbrella
51:54
nodes as I do, then you can't
51:58
very easily see who is giving
51:58
you a boost to Graham who is
52:01
giving you, um, you know, boosts
52:01
where this, uh, additional
52:06
cryptocurrency is coming from.
52:08
And so heli pad is a really
52:08
simple, straightforward thing
52:11
that will show boosts and
52:11
booster grams in real time.
52:14
Um, it looks very cool.
52:16
It's at version, not 0.1 0.3,
52:16
which you may guess means that
52:21
it hasn't quite been released,
52:21
but Dave Jones in the podcast
52:25
index.social today said that
52:25
he is submitting it to the
52:29
umbrella app store tomorrow.
52:31
So that should be.
52:32
It appears in the next version
52:32
of Umbro whenever that comes
52:36
out in the next couple of weeks.
52:38
So I'm very excited because
52:38
that will mean that I can lower
52:41
my reliance on the Satoshi
52:41
streams, uh, thing, which I've
52:45
been using and everything can
52:45
point directly to my own node.
52:49
Um, I find it very exciting,
52:49
although I can see a sound
52:52
familiar blank expression.
52:54
But, uh, you are slightly
52:54
less excited than I
52:57
am, but still area.
52:58  Sam
Just trying to think.
52:59
I have to read something that
52:59
says how to set up a node
53:02
now, before I even get to
53:02
setting up an umbrella and
53:05
then a heli part, it just
53:05
feels very complex to me,
53:09
but I'm sure it has a lot of
53:10  James
value.
53:11
It does.
53:11
It's got a lot of value.
53:12
We should get you.
53:13
We should get you in.
53:15
We should get you into this.
53:16
Um, I love that fact.
53:18  Sam
You're an early adopter
53:18
and earlier, you know, you
53:20  James
have to play
53:20
around with these things.
53:21
You have to, you have to
53:21
kick them and see what
53:23
works and what doesn't.
53:25
Um, and talking about
53:25
kicking them that clubhouse.
53:28
Oh dear.
53:29
Oh, dear
53:29  Sam
idea.
53:29
Yeah.
53:31
Nice link James.
53:32
I liked that one, a business
53:32
insider posts, an article today,
53:36
uh, inside the rise and fall
53:36
of clubhouse, a pandemic poster
53:40
child of the VT back hype.
53:42
Hobbled by drama rooms, unhappy
53:42
creators, dwindle users,
53:47
and dubious advertisable
53:47
let's just go for it.
53:51  James
Um, yes, it's saying
53:51
that daily average users
53:53
are down 80% since February.
53:57
So is clubhouse
53:57
going to go away?
53:59
Well, no.
54:00
Is the quick answer.
54:01
It's got $110 million
54:01
worth of cash.
54:03
It's not going to go anywhere.
54:05
Particularly quickly, but
54:05
that is a withering piece
54:09
from business insider.
54:10
Um, so, uh, yeah, not good
54:10
to see that about clubhouse,
54:14
which to me seems as if
54:14
it's, um, absolutely.
54:17
I was going to say dying on the
54:17
vine, but that was of course
54:20
was Twitter's thing, which.
54:21
Also died.
54:22
Um, uh, and talking about dying
54:22
things that nobody's using
54:27
fireside chat, uh, is enabling
54:27
streaming of shows to YouTube.
54:31
So that's exciting.
54:32
I spotted a change in their
54:32
terms and conditions, um,
54:35
which says that you can
54:35
use the YouTube API, or
54:38
you will be able to soon.
54:40
And they're also making
54:40
transcripts of chats available,
54:43
which they put in their pages,
54:43
but you, as a ordinary user,
54:49
can't actually see them.
54:50
They appear in Google search
54:50
results, but they don't appear
54:54
if you just look at the webpage.
54:56
So I built a page as a proof of
54:56
concepts as an educational tool.
55:01
Um, I've temporarily.
55:03
Um, had a lawyers put
55:03
up a tool to pull those
55:06
transcripts out of the pages.
55:07
So if you just copy and paste
55:07
the URL, then you can actually
55:11
see, um, uh, all of the, uh,
55:11
transcripts that a fireside
55:17
chat is hiding away from you.
55:19
Kuli a thing to do.
55:20
So
55:20  Sam
that's it, James.
55:21
So what else has been happening
55:21
for you in Portland this week?
55:24
Well,
55:24  James
I am on a podcast,
55:24
surprise, surprise.
55:26
It's called voice
55:26
works, sound business.
55:30
And I sat down with
55:30
Jim salverson to talk
55:32
about the current value
55:32
in the podcast market.
55:34
And I apparently made some bold
55:34
predictions as to what might
55:37
change in the industry over
55:37
the next two to three years.
55:39
It was a couple of weeks ago.
55:40
I've completely
55:40
forgotten what I said.
55:42
Uh, and then I may,
55:42
may or may not be true.
55:44
A well-worth Alyson voice
55:44
works, sound business, and
55:47
also I would recommend.
55:49
A podcast called
55:49
before the bar opens.
55:52
It's a podcast about people
55:52
who make use and love music.
55:56
AMA Clark's latest
55:56
episode interviews.
55:58
Chris Stevens.
55:59
Now you have heard Chris
55:59
Stevens, his work because
56:02
Chris Stevens is the person
56:02
who composed the Podland.
56:06
Theme which you here at the
56:06
top and at the bottom of
56:09
every single episode and also
56:09
the music on pod news, his
56:12
podcast, and he also owns
56:12
a jingle company in Dallas.
56:15
Um, it's well worth a listen
56:15
before the bar opens is
56:18
called that now what's um,
56:18
uh, how's your week been?
56:22
Sam?
56:23  Sam
It's not been a cracker.
56:24
Uh, my dog broke her leg.
56:26
That's all.
56:27
I'll say.
56:28
Excellent.
56:29
That eventually led
56:29
to a car hitting her.
56:31
So, yeah, she's got a
56:31
broken front leg, but she's
56:34
mending she's back home.
56:36
So it'll, it'll mend.
56:38
She's young
56:38  James
enough.
56:39
So great week for you, Sam.
56:41
Well, I hope that she
56:41
gets better soon and
56:44
that's it for this week.
56:46
Please
56:46  Sam
follow spotlight in
56:46
your podcast app and on
56:48
Twitter at the potluck news.
56:51
The previous shows on the
56:51
web at www dot hotline.
56:54  James
Don't mean if
56:54
you want daily news,
56:56
you should get pod news.
56:57
That newsletter is
56:57
free upon use.net.
56:59
The podcast can be found in your
56:59
podcast app and all the stories
57:02
we've discussed on pod lands
57:02
today are in the show notes.
57:05
And we use chapters
57:06  Sam
to music is from
57:06
that one Forman at ignite
57:09
jingles, and we're hosted
57:09
and sponsored both sprout
57:12  James
to keep this name.