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Podland News

The last word in podcasting news. Every Thursday, James Cridland from Podnews in Australia and Sam Sethi, from 'Podcast First' River Radio in the UK, review and analyse some of the week's top podcasting news from around the world. They also interview some of the biggest names making the news. Sponsored by Buzzsprout and SquadCast.

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episode 61: Pay Attention, Cash is King, Bitcoin is the native currency of the Internet and it's raining Sat's on Fountain. [transcript]

GUESTS:

Gigi - Closing the Loop - The Future of Value
Oscar Merry - Fountain Podcaster Wallet
Evo Terra - Hall of Fame Induction
Stewart Townsend - Podcast Hawk

NEWS:

Lightning Network is now available on Cash App. It's the fastest, free way to pay anyone in bitcoin. The Lightning Network is a new way to send BTC/SAT that's faster and free!!!

Some legend gave 100 million sats (1 bitcoin) to Cinemuck, the people behind the movie "Human B" - Gigi #Value4Value
Podcast app Fountain has launched a full Podcaster Wallet, making it the easiest way to earn Bitcoin from your podcast. Just search for your podcast and claim it in the app: you can monitor how much you earn, and see messages, in the app too.
Castos has released a new feature enabling all its podcasters to earn Bitcoin from listeners, as well as links to PayPal, Patreon and others. It’s one of the first podcast hosts to build in support for “value4value”.
Exclusive: Mumbler has released what they call the first monetisation study for podcasts in Spain.
This year’s Podcasting Hall of Fame inductees will be unveiled at 9am ET today by Podcast Movement.
Podcast Movement: Evolutions: Mar 23 · Los Angeles, California, USA
Edison Research has released the top 50 US podcasts for 2021.
Podtrac reports iHeartRadio is #1 for podcasting for January's US publishers list
Podchaser has released The Podchaser 25, a list of the “hottest up-and-coming podcasts” in the US.
After the Joe Rogan controversy, 40% of Americans, and 53% of Canadians, think Spotify should exercise editorial control over controversial content.&nbsp

2022-02-11 1h25m

00:00 James

Welcome to Podland the

00:00

last word in podcasting news.

00:03

It's the 10th of February, 2022.

00:05

I am James Cridland, the

00:05

editor of pod news.net.

00:08 Sam

And I'm Sam Sethi, the

00:08

MD of river radio, the podcast

00:11

first radio station going live

00:11

on dab James on the 1st of

00:15 James

March.

00:15 Gigi

Hi, my name is Gigi,

00:15

and I'm here to talk you about

00:18

Bitcoin lightning podcasting

00:18

2.0 and value for us.

00:22 Oscar

Hi, I'm Oscar married

00:22

from fountain dot FN.

00:25

And later I'll be on talking

00:25

about our new podcast, the

00:28

wallet feature, which allows

00:28

any podcast to get setup

00:31

on the Bitcoin lightning

00:31

network in just a few clicks.

00:34 Stewart

Hi, I'm sure

00:34

it towns in CMO and

00:36

co-founder of podcast org.

00:38

I'll be on later on to talk

00:38

about how we can help you

00:40

automate your process of

00:40

getting booked from podcasts.

00:43 Evo

And I am Evo Terra.

00:44

I'll be on later to talk about

00:44

my hall of fame induction.

00:47

Woo.

00:48 James

They will Podland is

00:48

leave a comment along with a

10:29

micro payment to the creator.

10:33

So the listener can feed

10:33

back on what they think

10:36

of the podcast, but also.

10:38

It gives them some

10:38

micro reward as well.

10:40

One thing I noted was that

10:40

you did a really interesting

10:44

mock-up on Twitter.

10:46

You showed her a podcast

10:46

player with boost to

10:49

grams along the timeline.

10:50

Tell me more about that.

10:52

So the main idea is

10:52

that once someone.

10:56

Since this gram, because the

10:56

payment is attached to it.

11:00

And just maybe since this is

11:00

so new, I assume most people

11:03

are not familiar with this.

11:04

So they, the idea is that

11:04

you have two ways to give

11:07

back in value for value.

11:08

First and foremost, the things

11:08

that we already discussed,

11:11

that you can set up your

11:11

podcast completely voluntary.

11:13

Of course.

11:14

So like you can listen to

11:14

the podcast without giving

11:16

back as well, but let's say

11:16

you have a little bit of

11:19

money in your podcasting

11:19

app, and then you can do.

11:22

That's like a fraction of the

11:22

pennies is stream every minute.

11:25

And this is just like a

11:25

baseline that you give back.

11:30

And if you really like

11:30

something, those new apps,

11:32

they have what are called

11:32

boost buttons or where you

11:34

can send a boost and you can

11:34

think of it as clapping and

11:37

throwing a couple more coins

11:37

into the hats and the article.

11:40

11:41

Busking analogy like

11:41

a street performer.

11:43

If you really like

11:43

something, you just

11:45

throw something in extra.

11:47

And what's so interesting

11:47

about the boosts is, and also

11:50

about the street payments.

11:52

This is a real signal, as

11:52

everyone knows in the podcasting

11:54

world, like all the measurements

11:54

that are being used to pitch

11:58

to advertisers, for example,

11:58

it's like, I have so many

12:00

downloads and I have this

12:00

and that, then those kinds

12:02

of metrics, sentiment, a lot

12:02

of it is nonsense because if.

12:05

Pop catching apps that

12:05

just download all the

12:07

feeds all the time.

12:09

Exactly flames over.

12:10

So it's nonsensical to use

12:10

these kinds of metrics.

12:12

And we have the same issues

12:12

online that there are some

12:15

people like myself that block

12:15

out all the tracking and

12:18

block out all those things.

12:19

And so we don't even show up

12:19

and all these metrics can be

12:23

gained of course, as well.

12:24

If someone decides to

12:24

give you money, it's

12:27

a very strong signal.

12:28

Like it's really a pristine

12:28

high quality signal that

12:31

these are real users.

12:32

These are not bots because

12:32

I bought the army will

12:35

not give you money.

12:36

That's not how it works.

12:36

And it was really engaging

12:36

and it, it provided

12:39

value to them and so on.

12:40

So it's a direct signal.

12:41

And that's what this idea of the

12:41

visualization came from as well.

12:44

Where imagine if you have

12:44

your not only visualization

12:48

and some people might.

12:50

YouTube, for example, where

12:50

you can see what parts of

12:52

the video are being watched.

12:53

And so it's the same idea

12:53

basically, but it's not the

12:56

eyeballs that you track,

12:56

but it's the, the true value

12:59

flows that you track when.

13:01

Press the boost button and

13:01

how much should he gave

13:04

and those kinds of things.

13:05

And the interesting thing

13:05

about Bitcoin and the

13:07

lightning network is that

13:07

there is no middleman.

13:09

It's a censorship resistant

13:09

payment mechanism and you have

13:13

the technical possibility to

13:13

add a small short text message.

13:17

With a payment.

13:18

And so this is being used slash

13:18

abused through built a feedback

13:23

mechanism for the value enabled

13:23

podcasts, where you can send

13:25

a short piece of grandma's

13:25

short message to the podcaster.

13:28

And this is something that we

13:28

explored as well with the things

13:32

that we are working on at the

13:32

tools that we are building.

13:34

What fun ideas can you think of?

13:36

What can you add to this message

13:36

and how will people use this?

13:39

And all of this is currently

13:39

being explored by the

13:41

people at the forefront.

13:42

So one of the things.

13:45

I noticed before Jack Dorsey

13:45

left Twitter was that in

13:49

the Twitter client, he's

13:49

enabled a micropayment

13:53

system using Bitcoin and sat.

13:55

So if you go to the podcast,

13:55

index.org, Twitter account,

13:59

you'll see a currency icon.

14:01

When you click on it, it

14:01

allows you to pay Dave

14:04

Jones and Adam Curry.

14:06

If you say.

14:07

Satoshi is for their

14:07

tweets, which is great.

14:10

Now it isn't common

14:10

knowledge and most people

14:12

aren't using it yet.

14:14

Um, one of the biggest problems

14:14

that most of the podcast

14:17

apps have like fountain and

14:17

the cast offsets you can't

14:21

easily set up a wallet.

14:22

So what I'm trying to

14:22

say is it feels like

14:25

there's stuff going on.

14:26

So the value for value, this

14:26

stuff that's going on with

14:28

boost to grams, the lightning

14:28

network, the stuff on Twitter.

14:32

But I think one of our biggest

14:32

problems as an industry is

14:35

that it's still complex.

14:36

Isn't it?

14:37

It's still which one it should.

14:39

I use.

14:39

How do I set up a wallet?

14:41

Where do I put my fear currency?

14:43

Which one?

14:44

It can I trust?

14:45

How much should I pay?

14:47

Where are you in your head

14:47

with how we address those?

14:51

That's a good question.

14:52

And you're definitely right.

14:53

That it's a little bit confusing

14:53

in the beginning and it's

14:58

very much, do you know those

14:58

like news clips from the early

15:01

nineties when no one knew what

15:01

the internet was and what is.

15:06

W though.

15:07

And so that's where we're

15:07

at currently with Bitcoin.

15:09

No one really understands it

15:09

and it's still a bit clunky

15:12

and weird to use, but I can

15:12

encourage everyone to just give

15:15

it a try because there are some

15:15

wallets that are super user

15:18

friendly already, like wallet of

15:18

Satoshi, for example, this is a

15:21

one that's super easy to set up.

15:23

Breeze is another one

15:23

that I really liked.

15:24

I view Bitcoin as the native

15:24

currency of the internet.

15:28

And if you want to do something.

15:29

Online in the future, you will

15:29

have to have this currency.

15:32

I see myself as

15:32

mostly living online.

15:35

So Bitcoin is my, do you think

15:35

the timeline will be before this

15:40

complexity becomes simplistic?

15:42

Because my favorite

15:42

expression is complexity

15:44

is failed simplicity.

15:46

And where we are right now is

15:46

we're in the complexity people.

15:51

Most people would struggle

15:51

if they had to understand.

15:55

How to set up a wallet and

15:55

how to buy SATs and how

15:58

to then make the payment.

16:00

So in certainly the invoice

16:00

thing is certainly confusing.

16:04

How do you think we're

16:04

going to make this a much

16:06

simpler, easier to understand.

16:10

I think we are very close.

16:11

I think we're almost there in

16:11

the podcasting to Pardot apps.

16:14

For example, you will

16:14

never see an invoice.

16:15

Basically.

16:16

Everything is abstract

16:16

that you press the boost

16:18

button and it just made a

16:18

payment without a middleman,

16:20

which flies across borders.

16:21

And it's virtually

16:21

free, basically instant.

16:24

And, um, for me as a.

16:27

The regular feared world is

16:27

where the complexity lies.

16:30

I can recommend the book that I

16:30

wrote to get a broad overview,

16:35

which is called 21 lessons

16:35

it's available online for free.

16:38

So you can just read it

16:38

without buying the catheter.

16:42

And I run everything that I

16:42

do on a value for value basis.

16:45

All the things that I do

16:45

are free available online.

16:49

And of course, like for

16:49

physical books, you can't copy

16:52

and paste physical books yet.

16:55

So you have to sell them

16:55

in the old fashioned way,

16:58

but everything else I

16:58

give away for free online.

17:01

And if you like it, it's

17:01

very easy to give back.

17:03

If you happen to have a couple

17:03

of subtleties to your name,

17:06

if you have a little bit of.

17:08

And in general in Bitcoin,

17:08

there are a couple of

17:11

great books already now.

17:12

So a couple of years ago

17:12

there were zero books on

17:15

Bitcoin, and now there's

17:15

like a good dozen or two.

17:18

And usually if you really want

17:18

to dig down into the question

17:21

of what is money and the history

17:21

of money, and why do we need

17:25

Bitcoin in the first place?

17:26

The Bitcoin standard

17:26

is often recommended.

17:28

There's also the Bose case for

17:28

Bitcoin, which is a great book.

17:31

If you want to look

17:31

again in the money side

17:34

and then the answering

17:34

the question, how this.

17:37

Play out in the next couple

17:37

of years and decades ahead in

17:39

terms of the lightening and

17:39

payment side of things and the

17:42

podcasting 2.0 side of things.

17:43

This is so new.

17:44

There are no books

17:44

about this yet.

17:46

Basically there's one

17:46

single lightning book,

17:48

which is very technical.

17:48

So it's mostly for programmers.

17:50

I would say.

17:51

I think it's called

17:51

mastering the lightning net.

17:53

You can also read this online

17:53

for free, like it's on good hub.

17:56

If you don't know what GitHub

17:56

is, this book is not for you.

17:59

And so what I would recommend

17:59

if you're interested in

18:02

podcasting 2.0 is look into

18:02

the work of Adam Curry.

18:05

Like he is championing

18:05

a lot of that stuff and

18:08

just play around with it.

18:09

Some great new value

18:09

enabled podcasting apps.

18:12

You can see a list.

18:13

You podcasting apps.com and

18:13

also on the podcast index,

18:17

you can see all the different

18:17

kinds of podcasts that are

18:20

a value enabled them to use

18:20

their value for value model.

18:23

And there are you don't like

18:23

it started out very humbly.

18:26

They were telling us like five

18:26

podcasts that use this stuff.

18:29

And now it's in the a hundred.

18:31

Maybe in a thousand plus,

18:31

and that's what just

18:33

play around with it.

18:34

Again, it might be intimidating

18:34

at first, but don't be afraid

18:38

to buy like $5 worth of

18:38

Bitcoin and play around with

18:41

some new podcasting apps.

18:43

And there's a lot

18:43

of fun to be had.

18:45

I am Gigi on Twitter and also

18:45

there gg.com is where all my

18:48

long form writing is I helped

18:48

to start a podcast as well

18:53

called closing the loop where

18:53

we discuss a lot of the things

18:56

that we discussed today.

18:58

And also the last episode

18:58

where I was on talked a lot

19:01

about the value for value

19:01

model might be an interesting

19:04

followup to this current.

19:05

And again, Bitcoin

19:05

resources.com.

19:08

If you're interested in

19:08

Bitcoin 21 lessons.com, if you

19:11

want to get a broad overview

19:11

of what this all is about

19:14

and where it might lead.

19:15

And that's basically it's thanks

19:15

a lot for having me there.

19:18 James

GG, and a really

19:18

interesting, and I hear

19:21

you talking about the cash

19:21

app, not working yet and

19:24

found him being really hard.

19:26

and there's been used

19:26

on that hasn't though.

19:28 Sam

Yeah.

19:28

really exciting.

19:29

this week, Jack Dorsey who owns

19:29

cash out formerly of Twitter has

19:34

now announced that the lightning

19:34

network integrates with

19:37

Twitter and via the cash app.

19:38

Of course, I tried it now.

19:40

Anyone who wants to try this

19:40

can, if you go on your mobile

19:44

app to the podcast index

19:44

Twitter account, you'll see a

19:48

little dollar icon at the top.

19:50

And when you click on it, it'll

19:50

bring up Bitcoin and Satoshi's

19:54

as mechanism of payment.

19:55

So instead of giving them a

19:55

retweet or a heart, you can

19:59

now actually give them cash

19:59

in the form of Satoshi's.

20:02

last week or the week before,

20:02

when I then clicked open my

20:05

wallet, nothing happened.

20:07

It didn't click

20:07

through to anything.

20:08

It just came up with a

20:08

screen saying custodial

20:11

or non-custodial wallet.

20:13

But this week now that the

20:13

cash apps on lightning, when

20:16

you click it, it opens up

20:16

your cash app and instantly

20:20

you can make a payment.

20:21 James

That's very smart.

20:22

That cash app is available

20:22

in the U S and the UK only.

20:25

so obviously I can't play

20:25

with it, but, it sounds

20:27

as if it's pretty cool.

20:28

I think you can send me an

20:28

D pod news, Bitcoin through

20:32

Twitter, there's a little,

20:32

button on our profiles,

20:35

but we can't use cash apps.

20:37

So it goes direct to

20:37

my umbrella instead.

20:39

which is, probably a fine thing.

20:40

In fact, I think the only thing

20:40

you can do for me, because I'm

20:43

in Australia is you can send me

20:43

Bitcoin, but You can't send me

20:46

SATs over the lightning network,

20:46

which is a bit of a shame.

20:49

But, yeah.

20:49

interesting hearing that, that

20:49

has moved on a little bit.

20:53

and, and also interesting

20:53

seeing, how many

20:56

people are using it.

20:56 Sam

a lot of people using,

20:56

but one person decided

20:59

to give a single Bitcoin,

20:59

a hundred million SATs

21:04

to Sydney muck, the people

21:04

behind the movie, human B.

21:07

that's a hell of a payment.

21:09 James

it is how much is the

21:09

Bitcoin worth these days?

21:11 Sam

I'm not sure what

21:11

40 odd thousand dollars.

21:14 James

Yeah, it's

21:14

a sensible amount.

21:16

It's find out how much is a bit

21:16

coin worth, It's worth $44,261.

21:22

as we record this,

21:22

so yes, very nice.

21:25

So there was that exciting

21:25

news about cash app.

21:28

And you also said that fountain

21:28

app, it was all too complicated

21:31

and blah, blah, blah.

21:32

And there's been some

21:32

movement on that too.

21:34

Hasn't there?

21:34 Sam

Yeah.

21:36

friend of the show.

21:37

he announced.

21:38

Only this week that his podcast

21:38

app fountain has launched they

21:42

full podcast or what it making

21:42

it the easiest way to own

21:45

Bitcoin from your podcast app.

21:47

All you have to do is search

21:47

for your podcast, claim it in

21:51

the app, and you can now monitor

21:51

how much you earn, see messages.

21:56

It's really simple.

21:56

So Oscar gave me a quick

21:56

demo and I caught up

22:00

with him to talk about.

22:01 Oscar

I'm here with Oscar,

22:01

Mary, the founder and CEO of

22:05

the wonderful fountain at Oscar.

22:07

You've got some big news to

22:07

tell us what's happening.

22:10

So we have announced and

22:10

just launched our found

22:14

thin podcost a wallet.

22:16

Now what this does is it

22:16

enables any podcasts out

22:22

there to start receiving

22:22

Bitcoin from their listen.

22:27

Through the value for

22:27

value model that adamant

22:30

day from podcasts.

22:31

And next is set up in just a

22:31

couple of clicks on fountain.

22:35

So what we've done is we've made

22:35

it really easy just to quickly

22:39

claim your podcasts on fountain.

22:41

We'll set you up with a Bitcoin

22:41

lightning wallet and we'll

22:45

update your what's called

22:45

value block in podcast index,

22:48

which means that just after

22:48

those two clicks within.

22:53

You'll be able to stop receiving

22:53

Bitcoin lightening payments

22:56

from your listeners from any

22:56

podcasting costing 2.0 enabled.

23:01

Great.

23:01

Now, does that mean once I'd

23:01

got Satoshis in my wallet?

23:06

Can I export them anywhere?

23:07

Yeah.

23:07

So you can.

23:09

Withdrawal them to any

23:09

Bitcoin lightning wallet.

23:12

We've just seen cash app

23:12

in the U S announced that

23:16

they've rolled out lightning

23:16

to all of their users.

23:18

So you can explore to cash app

23:18

if you want, or any of your

23:21

other Bitcoin lightning wallets.

23:23

Now you've been testing

23:23

clearly with creative

23:26

spots, the feedback, the

23:26

feedback has been great.

23:28

I think one of the interesting

23:28

things that we've found

23:30

over the past six months,

23:30

one of the reasons that we

23:32

wanted to actually build.

23:35

Product for podcast says, is

23:35

that there's a lot of podcasts

23:39

out there that actually do

23:39

have the ability to receive

23:43

Bitcoin lightning payments.

23:45

And they're receiving the

23:45

payments, but they're not

23:47

necessarily receiving all

23:47

of the amazing data that

23:51

goes along with that.

23:52

And that's actually one

23:52

of the most exciting

23:55

things about this feature.

23:56

So within the fountain podcasts,

23:56

You will be able to see not

24:01

only the list of incoming

24:01

transactions, but you'll

24:04

be able to see a summary of

24:04

which users are supporting

24:09

you the most over time.

24:10

And this is not just

24:10

users on fountain.

24:13

This is users supporting you

24:13

from any other port costing

24:16

to point out that you'll also

24:16

be able to see which episodes

24:19

have brought in the most.

24:21

And this is a great

24:21

feedback mechanism for you.

24:23

So you can see that this

24:23

episode was really good

24:25

or maybe the way that I.

24:27

For value back in this episode

24:27

was actually worked really well.

24:30

I'm going to, I'm going to

24:30

go with that script again.

24:33

I also have, we got, obviously

24:33

we've got all of the incoming

24:35

messages as well, so that you

24:35

can just quickly view them and

24:39

then use them as part of your

24:39

show format, um, going forward.

24:42

So we really wanted to make

24:42

it just really easy to have

24:46

all of the data from value,

24:46

for value, just in one place

24:50

where you can access it.

24:52

Congratulations.

24:53

Now, one of the things

24:53

that people may not know,

24:55

there's two forms of wallet,

24:55

wants a non-custodial

24:58

and wants a custodial.

24:59

This is a custodial wallet,

24:59

which means that you

25:02

are holding the warning.

25:03

Correct.

25:04

Right now is a custodial wallet,

25:04

but we're working on ways that

25:09

we can extend that to at least

25:09

have the non-custodial option

25:12

for podcasters that want to

25:12

take it to that next level.

25:14

And there's some

25:14

really exciting things.

25:17

With the lightning network

25:17

that should hopefully

25:19

give us that ability, uh,

25:19

further down the line.

25:22

But right now yet

25:22

is a custodial.

25:24

Now that's brilliant

25:24

for creators.

25:25

Now, looking at the side of you.

25:28

Obviously people who use the

25:28

fountain app can put their

25:31

wallet in and then start to

25:31

reward creators with SAS.

25:36

Do you have any plans to

25:36

integrate with cash app

25:39

or do you have plans to

25:39

create a user enabled wallet

25:43

locally in terms of cash app?

25:47

Person in the U S can already

25:47

send lightning from cash app

25:51

into fountain really easily.

25:53

That works today.

25:54

Obviously the lightening

25:54

within catch-up is not

25:56

available in the UK.

25:58

I think probably we won't

25:58

end up offering the kind of

26:02

fear on ramp or the ability

26:02

to buy Bitcoin or lightning

26:05

because that's fundament.

26:07

A bit of a different

26:07

business model and comes

26:09

with a lot of regulations.

26:10

So we probably will just

26:10

stick with allowing people

26:13

to send that Bitcoin on

26:13

lightning, into fountain.

26:16

I think the great thing that

26:16

cash app shows us is that

26:21

this is not just fountain

26:21

and podcasting 2.0, talking

26:24

about Bitcoin and lightning.

26:25

This is happening globally.

26:27

This is every digital finance

26:27

app that wants to survive

26:31

over the next five years is

26:31

going to have to do this.

26:34

The any poke cost is

26:34

out there that have been

26:37

maybe hesitant about this.

26:38

I think that's a great signal

26:38

to show you that this is

26:40

a round and it's the best

26:40

technology for the job.

26:43

Fundamentally.

26:44

There's no other payments

26:44

technology that allows

26:46

you to stream micro

26:46

payments per minute.

26:49

It just doesn't exist.

26:50

It was a crazy one.

26:51

Somebody given a hundred

26:51

million SATs to this film

26:54

called Cindy mark, a movie

26:54

that say it's just coming out.

26:59

So that will be one Bitcoin,

26:59

but it's around 30,000 pounds.

27:03

Now going forward.

27:04

What else do you have in mind?

27:06

When we first spoke probably

27:06

about six months ago, it

27:09

was all interesting ideas

27:09

and stuff, and every time we

27:14

speak or every time the market

27:14

looks forward, we're beginning

27:17

to move all those difficult

27:17

geeky things out of the way.

27:21

So what do you think is the

27:21

barrier now for mass adoption?

27:24

Great question.

27:25

I think that's two things

27:25

that are limiting the

27:28

growth of body for that.

27:30

I think the first is just making

27:30

that initial onboarding easier.

27:37

So I think cash app

27:37

has made a giant leap

27:40

forward in the U S market.

27:42

I think suddenly you've got

27:42

60 million people that are

27:45

aware of lightning and have a

27:45

lightning wallet on their phone.

27:48

I think internationally though,

27:48

we still don't have the.

27:52

Big players that are

27:52

offering that, but I think

27:54

that will come naturally

27:54

over the next year or so.

27:58

So I'm pretty optimistic

27:58

that we'll solve that.

28:01

The second thing that I think

28:01

is limiting value value is

28:04

just the education around.

28:07

How do you talk about

28:07

it on your podcast?

28:10

How do you explain what

28:10

value for value is, how do

28:13

you ask your listeners to

28:13

send you, uh, do you make

28:17

it part of your show format?

28:18

Like I know you.

28:20

Do the booster Graham corner.

28:21

That's one way of doing it.

28:23

You could ask at the beginning

28:23

of the show, you could ask at

28:25

the end of the show, you could

28:25

do a special Roundup episode

28:28

at the end of each month.

28:29

We're just starting to figure

28:29

out the different options.

28:32

And I think that's a really

28:32

important piece because

28:34

fundamentally it's not

28:34

enough as a podcast that

28:38

value enable your podcast.

28:40

You actually have to talk

28:40

about it on your show.

28:42

You have to talk about it

28:42

regularly in order to get people

28:45

supporting, they will support

28:45

if you ask them, but it takes.

28:48

Do you see a point because

28:48

now you've got the analytics

28:51

about who your superfans are.

28:53

Do you see a queen where

28:53

the creator cause it's

28:57

called value for value

28:57

as a two way street gives

29:01

stats back to the, the sun?

29:03

Definitely.

29:03

I don't see why not.

29:04

I think the really cool

29:04

thing about Bitcoin and

29:07

lightning is that there's

29:07

no limits to what we can do.

29:11

We can be completely creative

29:11

because at the end of the

29:14

day, it's just programmable.

29:16

So I'm really excited

29:16

to see what we can

29:19

do along those lines.

29:21

I think we're still

29:21

at the first stage.

29:23

So that's why we'd launched

29:23

the podcast, the wallet,

29:25

because hopefully now it,

29:25

maybe there's podcasters out

29:28

there that have thought about

29:28

doing this, but maybe they'd

29:31

been a bit puts off by having

29:31

to run their own lightening

29:34

node or some of the other

29:34

options that are out there.

29:37

Now, if you're a poke cost

29:37

that you can just set this up.

29:41

Two clicks within fountain and

29:41

you can start experimenting.

29:44

So I think we've got to

29:44

get as many podcasters on

29:46

board as possible because

29:46

the more podcasts that are

29:48

doing this, the more examples

29:48

we'll see if the best way to

29:52

integrate it into the show.

29:54

I'm really excited to see

29:54

what people do with that.

29:57

I think also the thing that

29:57

you mentioned cash app.

29:59

So when I go to my

29:59

Twitter, Account.

30:02

And I go to the podcast

30:02

index account on Twitter.

30:05

I've got a little

30:05

dollar sign icon.

30:08

When you click on it, it

30:08

brings up a pop-up for

30:10

cash Satoshi's or Bitcoin.

30:12

And in the past that would

30:12

just ask me for a wallet.

30:14

And of course I'm not

30:14

us and it wouldn't have.

30:17

Only yesterday.

30:18

Did I notice when I now

30:18

click open one, it goes

30:20

straight into cash app.

30:21

As I have a local version

30:21

of cash app and I think 300

30:26

million roughly Twitter users.

30:28

So if there is a way that

30:28

even a percentage of that

30:31

starts to get into the Satoshi

30:31

reward system value, I think

30:35

it will begin to go mainly.

30:38

Now very quickly, where

30:38

can people get the fountain

30:40

that tell them where

30:40

they can go and try it?

30:42

So you can download

30:42

fountain on iOS or Android.

30:46

It's live on, uh, both

30:46

of those app stores.

30:49

And if you're a podcaster that

30:49

wants to set up your podcast

30:54

to receive Bitcoin lightning

30:54

through value for value, all

30:57

you have to do on fountain is

30:57

find your show on fountain,

31:03

click the lightning bolt on

31:03

your show page within the.

31:07

And there's a big yellow button

31:07

that just says claim podcast.

31:11

And if you hit that button,

31:11

you would just need to put in

31:14

the owner email address that's

31:14

in your eyes, that's feed,

31:17

just so that we know that you

31:17

have a control over that feed.

31:21

And from there we work with

31:21

Adam and Dave at the podcast

31:24

index to just update your

31:24

value block from there.

31:27

So it's really simple

31:27

one-click process.

31:30

And then you can start

31:30

asking your listeners

31:33

to send you some stuff.

31:35

A magazine or skip.

31:36

Congratulations.

31:37

Once again, look forward to

31:37

the next big update from you.

31:40

Speechy seen mate.

31:42

Amazing.

31:42

Thanks to my son.

31:44

Pleasure.

31:45 James

Oscar Mary from fountain,

31:45

you can download fountain

31:48

at today on both iOS and on

31:48

Android, anywhere in the world.

31:53

Amazing.

31:54

It works anywhere in the world.

31:55

Who'd have thought it and

31:55

you can give that a go listen

31:58

to this podcast on there,

31:58

and you'll see all kinds of

32:02

exciting things about streaming

32:02

sets and about boosts too and

32:06

castoffs has released a new

32:06

feature, which also enables

32:09

all of its podcast is to

32:09

earn Bitcoin from listeners.

32:12

it's one of the first

32:12

podcast hosts to build in

32:14

support for value as well.

32:16

So if you're on castoffs, if

32:16

you're hosting on castoffs,

32:19

then you can, add the,

32:19

Bitcoin information into

32:22

there and away you go.

32:24

And I think the difference

32:24

though, between castoffs

32:27

and fountain is that car

32:27

stars has enabled a space

32:31

for you to type in your

32:31

Bitcoin node information.

32:35

So that sort of thing, but

32:35

what fountain has done is

32:37

they've gone the whole hog.

32:38

So they've given you

32:38

a proper podcast, a

32:42

wallet, which includes.

32:43

All of that stuff.

32:45

So it's a very different things.

32:47

So many congratulations

32:47

to Oscar, for doing that.

32:49

And it's great to hear.

32:51 Sam

Now, you had a report,

32:51

which I thought was really

32:54

good to juxtapose to all

32:54

of this integration with

32:58

cash and a fountain app.

33:00

It was a report from mumbler

33:00

that was released in Spain,

33:04

where they looked at how

33:04

podcasts is monetizing.

33:07

What was the reports about

33:08 James

James?

33:09

Yeah.

33:09

So it's, a report,

33:09

looking at, how different,

33:13

podcasts in Spain.

33:15

so Spanish language obviously,

33:15

but different podcasts in

33:17

Spain are earning money or not.

33:19

As the case may be 47% of people

33:19

said that they're not earning

33:24

money from their podcast,

33:24

but quite a lot of people are

33:27

from all kinds of things like

33:27

selling their own services to

33:30

sponsorship and advertising

33:30

and so on and so forth.

33:32

Just, a lot of really useful

33:32

information around, podcasters

33:37

and monetizing of, all of

33:37

that from a mumbler, which

33:41

is a Spanish company and

33:41

it was kind of them to have

33:44

got in touch with, pod news

33:44

and given us an English

33:47

translation in there as well.

33:48

yeah, if you want to have

33:48

a peak at that, you will

33:50

find it a couple of days

33:50

ago in the pod news new.

33:54

Yeah.

33:54 Sam

the reason why I found

33:54

it interesting was how they're

33:56

making money from their podcast.

33:58

And if you juxtapose that back

33:58

to what we were talking about

34:01

with Satoshis and value for

34:01

value, how long it'll be before

34:05

podcasts are simply to, all

34:05

that other stuff that's selling

34:08

Casper mattresses and Dar.

34:10

Advertising are can't

34:10

be bothered with it.

34:13

Or will the big podcasts still

34:13

sell advertising, but the long

34:17

tail focus on just building

34:17

small network community.

34:20 James

Yeah, I think, I'm a

34:20

big fan of not diving into

34:24

a binary, idea here and it

34:24

must be one or the other.

34:28

I think the value for

34:28

value absolutely fits in

34:30

as well as advertising.

34:32

I think that

34:32

advertising has a place.

34:33

I think that sponsorship has.

34:35

And I think the value for

34:35

value has a place and actually

34:38

they can co-exist if you

34:38

want them to, you can choose

34:40

one or the other, if you

34:40

want to do that as well.

34:43

But I think, the advertising

34:43

model is tried and tested,

34:46

and value for value is

34:46

actually tried and tested.

34:48

Just ask Adam Curry about that.

34:50

I think anything that,

34:50

offers creators choice

34:52

in how they produce their

34:52

content is a good thing.

34:56

So really excited to hear that.

34:58

You know, the future, isn't

34:58

just selling Casper mattresses.

35:01

The future is all kinds of

35:01

other things in there as well.

35:04

And

35:04 Sam

we're not sponsored

35:04

by Casper mattress

35:06

just to be clear.

35:08 James

No, we're not.

35:08

We're sponsored by

35:08

Buzzsprout though.

35:09

And by sprouted, jolly good

35:09

looking forward to seeing

35:12

them at podcast movement,

35:12

and also looking forward to

35:15

seeing this year's podcasting

35:15

hall of fame, inductees,

35:18

which will be unveiled.

35:20

Yeah,

35:20 Sam

they unveiled, yesterday

35:20

at 9:00 AM Eastern time.

35:24

and who was in the hall of fame?

35:26 James

Oh, lots of exciting

35:26

people in the hall of fame,

35:29

ginger Campbell, who is

35:29

the host of brain science,

35:32

mark Marron, who does WTF.

35:34

What's that for,

35:34

with mark Marin?

35:36

I know that's not what it stands

35:38 Sam

for.

35:40

I thought that was

35:40

quite clever if it was,

35:41 James

but I think it should.

35:43

What's that for we've married,

35:43

Mikayla Matthews, who is

35:46

host of side hustle, pro Dr.

35:49

Emily Morse, who

35:49

is host of second.

35:51

Emily and CEO of chick flicks

35:51

productions, Dave Sasha.

35:56

Now, it said in the release

35:56

that he, his host and producer

35:58

of evil genius Chronicles,

35:58

I will tell you that Dave

36:01

Slusher was the first podcaster

36:01

to say the word podcast.

36:06

And our podcast, according

36:06

to my Myra research.

36:10

So Dave Slusher knows a thing

36:10

or two about this world.

36:14

He started podcasting

36:14

in 2004 and has been

36:18

doing it ever since.

36:20

Also Glen Washington, who's

36:20

producer of snap judgment,

36:23

Molly wood, who I used to

36:23

listen to a long time ago

36:25

on nets, a buzz out loud.

36:28

she is now working on

36:28

this week in startups.

36:31

and finally a very nice man,

36:31

a proud bid owner and pipe

36:37

owner, the host of podcast

36:37

pontifications and CEO of

36:41

simpler media productions.

36:43

Evo Terra.

36:44 Sam

Yeah.

36:44

I caught up with him yesterday

36:44

just to say congratulations

36:47

and find out what he felt.

36:49

Having gotten his hall of fame.

36:51

I'm honored.

36:53

I'd got one of the new

36:53

hall of fame, inductees

36:57

friend of the show.

36:59

Truly wonderful.

37:00

It's Evo Terra.

37:01

Hello.

37:02 Evo

Fine, Sam fine.

37:04

Thanks for having me on here.

37:05

The funny thing is I used

37:05

to be sent out into the hall

37:08

quite a bit as a student, but

37:08

being inducted into the hall

37:11

of fame is quite an honor

37:13 Sam

tying that

37:13

back to the teacher.

37:15

Exactly.

37:15

He talks too much.

37:17

He'll never make anything of it.

37:19

Now look at

37:19 Evo

it.

37:20

It doesn't apply himself.

37:22

Can't stay focused, wants

37:22

to talk nonstop, tries

37:25

to make everybody laugh.

37:26

Hey, look, what I got.

37:28

When did you find that out?

37:30

I got the announcement this

37:30

morning, obviously, as everybody

37:32

else did here in the states,

37:32

when the embargo is dropped

37:34 at 9

00 AM Eastern time.

37:36

But I got a phone call from

37:36

them a couple of weeks back.

37:39

And really the reason the

37:39

phone call was to say, are

37:42

you coming to the event?

37:43

I don't think the award

37:43

gifting was predicated on

37:46

your attendance or not.

37:46

I think they were saying, if

37:46

not, can you shoot a video?

37:48

But I said, luckily I

37:48

have already purchased

37:51

a ticket to the event.

37:52

So good news.

37:53

I will actually be there to

37:53

pick up my piece of acrylic.

37:57

Well,

37:58 Sam

James, now we'll be

37:58

out there with you as well.

38:00

So we look

38:00 Evo

forward to it.

38:01

It'll be fun to meet

38:01

in person for the first

38:03

time I'm looking forward.

38:04

Indeed

38:05 Sam

now, what does

38:05

it mean to be in the

38:07 Evo

hall of fame?

38:08

So I'm pretty stoked

38:08

because as I said, in

38:11

my episode of podcast,

38:11

pontifications, which I've

38:13

decided to release tomorrow.

38:14

Cause not everybody can

38:14

go to the award ceremony.

38:16

It makes me sound a little

38:16

bit like a dirt bag here,

38:18

but I'm not the kind of

38:18

guy that actually seeks.

38:21

Awards.

38:22

I'm not that way in podcasting.

38:23

I was never that way.

38:24

When I ran an agency, in fact,

38:24

the agencies that I worked at,

38:26

we had a policy that we would

38:26

not submit to awards because

38:29

we wanted it to be about the

38:29

work itself and not about

38:32

the accolades that we get.

38:33

So that's something I've

38:33

carried with me for awhile,

38:35

but at the same time,

38:35

I'm incredibly honored.

38:39

I've been doing this for

38:39

a long time and to be

38:41

recognized by my peers, many

38:41

of what you've also been.

38:45

For a long time.

38:46

It's almost overwhelming just

38:46

to look at the list of people

38:49

who are in there already.

38:50

And to know that some of them

38:50

said this guy's efforts and

38:53

podcasting is worth having

38:53

that accolade to his name.

38:56

Now, what

38:57 Sam

do you think is going

38:57

to be happening this year?

39:00

2022 in podcasting?

39:01

It's early enough in the air.

39:02

Let's get Evo Tara's

39:04 Evo

view on that.

39:04

Like every year, this

39:04

is the year podcasting.

39:06

And we've been saying

39:06

that for the longest time,

39:08

but it continues to feed.

39:11

That there's so

39:11

much opportunity.

39:13

Last year was a big mergers

39:13

and acquisition year.

39:16

I don't think 20, 22 is

39:16

going to be any less of that.

39:20

In fact, for the rumblings that

39:20

I'm hearing out there, I think

39:22

it's going to be more, so we're

39:22

going to keep seeing large

39:26

companies swinging large bags of

39:26

money around and entering this

39:29

space, or conglomerating this.

39:32

And that's both good and bad

39:32

for all of podcasting, but

39:35

I tend to like it as a good

39:35

thing, changes always comes

39:38

with its challenges, but I

39:38

think it's a good thing because

39:40

that will continue to put the

39:40

spotlight on podcasting and

39:46

hopefully in ways that continue

39:46

to bring more people into.

39:51

We'll have to wait and see

39:51

what the numbers come out

39:53

from medicine research this

39:53

year, but we haven't cracked

39:55

that 30% number in the states.

39:57

At least the people who listen

39:57

on a regular weekly basis.

39:59

So I'm hopeful that we'll see

39:59

more people coming into the

40:04

space as the, as more attention

40:04

is poured on it from these

40:06

big mergers and acquisitions.

40:08

My big

40:08 Sam

bet with James is

40:08

the Netflix will buy

40:10 Evo

Spotify.

40:11

So that's one of many ideas that

40:11

I've heard floated around there.

40:13

Google will they do something

40:13

in podcasting worthwhile or not?

40:16

How many times

40:16

have we said that?

40:18

I dunno, maybe it's

40:18

finally the time for

40:20

YouTube to do something.

40:21

I think the people that

40:21

run YouTube or are a little

40:23

different than the regular

40:23

Googlers, and I think they

40:25

see all the attention of

40:25

podcasting that's taking place.

40:28

So they may come in and

40:28

make it a big change.

40:30

I'm always puzzled.

40:32

And I've been puzzled

40:32

about this since the

40:33

beginning of podcasting.

40:34

Why audible, which is

40:34

now owned by Amazon.

40:37

Doesn't take a bigger stake.

40:38

Podcasting, audible.

40:41

What apple did with iTunes

40:41

back in 2005, they would

40:44

clearly be the default standard

40:44

because they already had a

40:47

spoken word mobile platform.

40:49

And the fact that they don't

40:49

do more always puzzles me.

40:52

So I'm not counting Amazon

40:52

slash audible out of making

40:56

a next great big push and

40:56

flipping things upside

40:59 Sam

down.

41:00

The other interesting

41:00

thing that I think.

41:02

And I've just interviewed

41:02

OptiScan Mary and a Gigi as well

41:07

is about the value from value.

41:09

So Tashi payments, micropayment

41:09

systems, it was exciting to

41:12

see cash out, supporting the

41:12

lightning network last night.

41:16

And it's been exciting to see

41:16

how that's already integrated

41:19

straight into Twitter now.

41:21

So quick access to wallets

41:21

and give the 300 million

41:25

odd people who use Twitter.

41:27

Nah, a nice slither of that.

41:28

Maybe 5% can get their

41:28

heads around creating

41:32

a digital wallet.

41:33

And instead of giving you

41:33

a heart or a like, or a

41:36

retweet giving you some

41:36

stats, I think that's a great

41:39

step in, hopefully, maybe.

41:42

Paul fade go away.

41:43

Podcasters who create

41:43

something, but get frustrated

41:46

that there's no engagement or

41:46

interaction or monetization.

41:49

None of us really want

41:49

to sell Casper mattresses

41:52 Evo

by that too.

41:52

I am not a crypto bro.

41:54

I get it a little bit.

41:55

I have spent hundreds of the

41:55

dollars on crypto, right?

42:00

Not anything more than that.

42:02

I like the idea of

42:02

value for value.

42:04

To me, the biggest barrier

42:04

is getting people who are not

42:07

crypto bros to get on board.

42:09

And this is not for

42:09

the faint of heart.

42:11

It takes work from both

42:11

sides, from the podcast or

42:13

side or from the podcast

42:13

listener side to do something.

42:16

So seeing.

42:18

Like, I know the

42:18

fountains released some

42:20

new stuff coming on.

42:20

There's a bunch of others that

42:20

are now making it a much easier

42:23

onboarding process when it's

42:23

as easy as giving someone at

42:28

PayPal payments or signing

42:28

up for a Patrion account or

42:32

clicking that tip button, as

42:32

you mentioned in Twitter right

42:35

now, when it's that simple

42:35

and it's that integrated, I

42:38

think that is an engagement.

42:39

Some people do more often

42:39

say yes, I would like to

42:42

show my love to that podcast.

42:44

Are there now?

42:44

Will there be enough?

42:46

That do that.

42:47

There is still the 99 1 rule

42:47

that says 90% of your audience

42:51

won't do anything 9% maybe

42:51

will, and 1% will do it.

42:54

So if you're a podcast with

42:54

a hundred listeners, which

42:56

is around the average number

42:56

of listeners, the average

42:59

podcast has a, that means,

42:59

well, give you some boost.

43:03

That mean a feed

43:03

from pod fading.

43:04

I don't really know, but

43:04

nonetheless, I am encouraged

43:08

by making it easier to

43:08

access this form of listeners

43:11

and maybe not the head.

43:13 Sam

If only 1% the head get it.

43:15

But I think if you're a small

43:15

podcast run and you get that

43:18

engagement back, it reminds

43:18

me of blogging in the day.

43:22

When you blogs, just getting

43:22

a comment in your blog.

43:25

You gave you that extra

43:25

juice to go write your next

43:28

post because you thought my

43:28

God, I've just sweated tears

43:32

and blood over this thing.

43:33

And someone's actually read it

43:33

and giving me something back.

43:36

I think that may be just

43:36

the requirement of it rather

43:40

than it's my retirement

43:40

fund, but it could be just,

43:43

you know what, that's just

43:43

a nice pat on the back.

43:45

Thank you so much for letting

43:45

me know you're listening

43:48

and I'm onto my next

43:49 Evo

step.

43:50

I remember back when

43:50

Twitter first hit the

43:52

scene a few months into it.

43:53

One of its benefits

43:53

was quite often.

43:56

You'd write that blog post

43:56

and you check the next day

43:59

and you get a big goose

43:59

egg for comments, but back

44:03

then, we're talking 2006.

44:05

You could put a tweet out and

44:05

within 10 minutes you get off.

44:09

Okay, you get, maybe

44:09

somebody would retweet it

44:11

even with a small audience.

44:12

So if we podcasters and more

44:12

importantly, the podcast app

44:16

makers can figure out a way to

44:16

provide that sort of a feedback

44:22

mechanism to just so you know,

44:22

people are actually listening

44:26

because you don't know that.

44:27

You only know that from your

44:27

download numbers, which don't

44:29

mean lessons, you can log

44:29

into apple or you can log

44:31

into Spotify and get that.

44:32

But even that's only a sliver

44:32

of your, of the information

44:35

that is tied to that platform.

44:36

But if you could know, overall

44:36

people are continuing to

44:39

get what you want to say.

44:41

I think that helps

44:41

podcasters keep.

44:43

And also help refine your show.

44:45

If splitting this kind

44:45

of content out gets me

44:48

more kudos, gets me more.

44:50

Woofy whatever word you want

44:50

to use, then that's the way

44:53

I will structure my show.

44:54

That's hard to do when you get

44:54

one piece of feedback a month.

44:59

Now

45:00 Sam

with the hall of fame,

45:00

once you get, you get a

45:01

plaque because you got a

45:01

badge, what have you got

45:03 Evo

full of fame?

45:04

I get a Learjet and a

45:04

lifetime supply of cookies.

45:08

No, I have no idea what I

45:08

get actually about half of

45:11

the recipient from prior

45:11

years are friends of mine

45:14

because I've been in this

45:14

space for so stinking long.

45:16

I know they've got a plaque

45:16

and we get to be up on

45:18

stage and do some stuff.

45:19

But beyond that, as

45:19

far as what the other.

45:22

Bonus pieces we get for being

45:22

that other than bragging rights.

45:25

I'm not sure.

45:26

I guess I will find out when

45:26

and or if something arrives

45:30

in the mail or when I'm on

45:30

stage at podcast movement,

45:34 Sam

Eva terror, remember

45:34

lasers and gentlemen, you need

45:36

to bow now you'll be wearing

45:36

Ermin and a golden set to,

45:40

with a microphone on the top.

45:41

That's how you're

45:42 Evo

recognizing.

45:43

Yep.

45:43

I'll be just like Chris

45:43

Rock's character in

45:46

fifth element Ruby ride.

45:49

On a more

45:49 Sam

serious.

45:50

Now, if anyone wants to

45:50

listen to your brilliant

45:52

podcast, where can they go

45:53 Evo

check out podcast?

45:55

Pontifications, that's

45:55

probably the biggest thing

45:57

that I'm doing these days.

45:58

It is designed for

45:58

podcasters like yourself.

46:01

We talk about the future and

46:01

the present of podcasting

46:03

and discuss ways that we can.

46:05

All of us podcasts were

46:05

to work together to

46:07

make podcasting better.

46:09

Say, thanks, Sam.

46:11 James

The very nice Evo

46:11

Terra he's promised me a

46:14

beer or he's promised that

46:14

I can buy him a beer at

46:17

podcast movement evolution.

46:19

Yeah.

46:20

I don't really know

46:20

which way round, but

46:21

anyway, however it works.

46:23

and so looking forward to

46:23

seeing him there and if you

46:26

want to see, the hall of

46:26

Famers being given all of

46:31

their fancy trophies and

46:31

everything else, it's presented

46:33

by Libsyn and it's on March

46:33

the 25th at podcast movement

46:38

evolutions in Los Angeles.

46:40

You don't need a ticket for

46:40

podcasts moving to evolution, as

46:43

you can just rock up, I believe.

46:44

and a watch.

46:45

so that's all very good.

46:46

And of course you can

46:46

also watch online too.

46:49 Sam

We'll be watching live.

46:50

James

46:50 James

won't.

46:51

We.

46:51

we were watching live there.

46:52

Yes.

46:52

Our be giving, all of the

46:52

inductees, a big round of

46:57

applause and everything else

46:57

under hopefully trying to

47:00

record a little bit for the

47:00

pod news podcast as well.

47:04 Sam

charts.

47:05

everyone loves a chart there

47:05

and they, James there's a

47:07

lot of them out this week.

47:08

ed, some research has

47:08

released the top 50 U

47:11

S podcasts for 2021.

47:13

Who's in the list.

47:14 James

Well, amazingly

47:14

enough, the Joe Rogan

47:16

experience is number one.

47:18

and in fact, the top

47:18

five haven't changed.

47:20

So what Edison research

47:20

do is they release this

47:23

report every quarter.

47:25

It contains, the last 12 months.

47:28

Podcasts listening.

47:29

And the way that they do

47:29

it is they ask people every

47:31

single week, what podcasts

47:31

are you listening to?

47:33

and, they end up with a

47:33

great big list of very

47:37

popular podcasts in there.

47:39

from number five to number

47:39

one at five stuff, you

47:41

should know what for this

47:41

American life at three crime

47:44

drunk here to the daily.

47:46

And number one is the

47:46

Joe Rogan experience.

47:47

so that was nice to hear.

47:49

But then there was another

47:49

chart, pawn track, who,

47:51

release a chart every

47:51

month or so, which is

47:54

participating publishers only.

47:56

And it shows that I, heart radio

47:56

is number one for podcasts.

47:59

And the number one is the daily,

47:59

which is all very exciting.

48:05

And NPR number two, and a

48:05

number three and NBC news

48:09

up at number four at the

48:09

Ben Shapiro show at five.

48:12

So you've got that chart,

48:12

which has gone on as well.

48:16

And then you've got

48:16

the pod chaser 25.

48:20 Sam

I list of the hottest

48:20

up and coming podcasts.

48:24

So come on then.

48:25

James, who's the hottest

48:25

in upcoming podcast in

48:28

the pod chaser twenty-five

48:29 James

I asked how

48:29

they, worked it out.

48:31

and families who kill

48:31

is the number one show.

48:34

Never heard of it, but

48:34

maybe that's the point.

48:36

of how all of this works.

48:37

it's worked out by a

48:37

proprietary scoring system.

48:40

A pod chaser have listening

48:40

stats from a podcast app, or

48:45

maybe a couple of podcast apps.

48:47

they won't tell me what

48:47

the podcast apps are.

48:49

The only thing that they

48:49

will say is 20 million years.

48:53

But I don't know whether

48:53

that's 20 million users in

48:55

the us or across the world.

48:56

but, they also have though

48:56

another 29 data points,

49:00

which they wouldn't tell

49:00

me what any of those are.

49:02

apparently some of

49:02

them has something to

49:04

do with social media.

49:05

So maybe if you follow followed

49:05

on social media a little bit

49:07

more, then you might get a

49:07

little bit higher in this

49:09

chart and blah, blah, blah.

49:10

but I could get very little

49:10

information about any of this.

49:13

and they're called hottest

49:13

up and coming podcasts.

49:16

I went through the list.

49:17

One of the podcasts in that pod

49:17

chaser 25 was released only

49:22

a couple of weeks ago, right?

49:24

At the end of January.

49:26

some of the other charts in the

49:28

Paul Chase chaser 25

49:28

were released at the

49:31

beginning of December.

49:32

So I'm not quite sure

49:32

how that works in terms

49:35

of these charts as well.

49:36

And I'm just, I don't, I dunno,

49:36

I'm just looking at pod tracer

49:40

and I'm thinking there's an

49:40

awful lot of black boxes there

49:43

where they're not telling

49:43

anybody how anything works.

49:45

And I'm just a little bit

49:45

dubious about the whole thing.

49:49

I thought I'd go

49:49

in and have a look.

49:51

I can see, the data

49:51

for pod news in there.

49:55

So I thought, that'll be

49:55

interesting seeing what

49:57

that data shows and how

49:57

many listeners that it

50:00

thinks that pod news has.

50:01

It thinks that pod news does

50:01

25,000 downloads a month,

50:06

except pod news does a hundred

50:06

thousand downloads a month.

50:09

So that's wrong by

50:09

a factor of four.

50:11

again, I'm just slightly

50:11

worried that they've got this

50:15

tech, which isn't probably

50:15

tuned particularly well, and

50:19

they're diving into something

50:19

which just seems a bit

50:23

proprietary and a big black box.

50:24

And if they're not telling

50:24

us quite how it's worked out,

50:27

then, I don't know, I'm just

50:27

slightly dubious, but maybe

50:30

I'm just being miserable

50:30

about the whole thing.

50:32

And maybe they're

50:32

doing a fantastic

50:34

thing for the industry.

50:35 Sam

Have you called over

50:35

the January blues yet?

50:37

You not quite

50:37

finished with them.

50:39

Have you?

50:41 James

Ah, I would tell

50:41

you what a thing to say.

50:44

it's all this talking

50:44

about Joe Rogan.

50:46

That's what it is.

50:46

I'm really hoping that we're not

50:46

going to talk about Joe Rogan.

50:49 Sam

we pushed it all the way

50:49

down to the bottom as far as we

50:51

could, but I think we have days.

50:53

the boy likes to be in the news.

50:54

He is the number one,

50:54

as we just said all over

50:57

the Edison research.

50:58

you can see why Spotify

50:58

love him as well.

51:00

you had an exclusive

51:00

this week, James, from.

51:03

report about what's going

51:03

on with the Joe Rogan

51:06

controversy, what was the

51:06

exclusive report about?

51:09 James

Yeah, it was exclusive

51:09

data and really good to see

51:13

this information because

51:13

it really made you think,

51:16

it came from signal hill

51:16

insights, it's data from

51:19

both Americans and Canadians.

51:21

And I think that's important.

51:23

Yeah.

51:23

when you look at, the Canadian

51:23

data, 53% of people say that

51:28

Spotify has a responsibility

51:28

for editorial control, that

51:32

is considerably lower, only

51:32

40% of people for Americans,

51:36

but that's still the most

51:36

popular choice for Americans,

51:39

but it's really polarized.

51:41

if you have a look in the

51:41

middle, of people who really

51:44

haven't made a decision one

51:44

way or the other, should

51:47

Spotify have editorial control,

51:47

should it be Joe Rogan,

51:50

should Joe Rogan be able to

51:50

release anything he wants?

51:52

then there's a little bit

51:52

of information, Then there's

51:55

really not that much.

51:56

middle ground it's either.

51:58

I really believe that, Joe

51:58

Rogan is wrong and that Spotify

52:02

should be, exerting editorial

52:02

control or on the other side,

52:05

Joe Rogan can feature whoever.

52:08

And that's particularly strong

52:08

in terms of Americans, 37%

52:12

of all Americans say that Joe

52:12

Rogan can say whatever he wants

52:15

because of that whole freedom of

52:15

speech thing, which is very much

52:18

part of the American culture.

52:19

But as you can see here, not

52:19

part of the Canadian culture.

52:22

So I just thought it was

52:22

really interesting data

52:24

from signal hill insights.

52:27

And there's a bunch more

52:27

data in the report that they,

52:29

kindly shared, with, as well.

52:31

and I think it just goes to

52:31

show that actually, a it's

52:34

really polarized, but also B

52:34

don't go thinking that everybody

52:39

wants freedom of speech because

52:39

that's definitely not the case.

52:42

And don't go thinking that

52:42

everybody just wants Spotify

52:45

to editorially control this.

52:47

Because again, that's

52:47

definitely not the case either.

52:50

It's very much a very

52:50

polarized view on

52:53

that.

52:54 Sam

So yeah, you're talking

52:54

about myopic Americans again.

52:56 James

Well, good Lord.

52:57

Mr.

52:58

Sethi, do you want to

52:58

get into Los Angeles in

53:00

a couple of weeks time?

53:01

53:01 Sam

certainly won't be

53:01

mentioning that to the,

53:03

border control man though.

53:05 James

I don't know whether

53:05

it's a myopic Americans.

53:07

I don't think that's

53:07

particularly fair, but I do

53:09

think that there is a definite

53:09

difference in terms of culture.

53:12

And I think that's where.

53:14

We have found it difficult

53:14

to talk about this because

53:18

we have different cultures.

53:19

We are not American.

53:21

And I think that

53:21

is, the big thing.

53:23

the other thing that came out

53:23

of this is if you listen to

53:27

the Joe Rogan experience, then

53:27

you completely side with Jerry.

53:32

Absolutely you do.

53:34

I'm the only one in five of

53:34

Joe Rogan listeners think

53:38

that Spotify should have

53:38

any responsibility at all.

53:41

whereas Joe Rogan listeners,

53:41

for us of five nearly basically

53:44

say, absolutely Joe Rogan

53:44

should invite whoever he

53:47

wants on and they should

53:47

say whatever they like.

53:50

so again, really interesting

53:50

seeing that sort of side of it.

53:52

Yeah.

53:53

53:54 Sam

don't have an issue with

53:54

Joe Rogan, having any guest

53:56

on and saying what he likes.

53:58

I think it's up to him.

53:59

I was listening to Kara Swisher

53:59

and Scott Galloway and they

54:02

were saying, look, this is not

54:02

cancel culture, which Daniel

54:05

Lac was trying to label it too.

54:07

This is just about simple facts.

54:09

This is misinformation.

54:11

And you can't be going

54:11

around talking about certain

54:14

things, informing people

54:14

wrongly when they're not

54:17

facts and that's all.

54:18

Correct the facts or but

54:18

you can't call it canceled.

54:23 James

And playing

54:23

devil's advocate.

54:24

Of course it's not

54:24

necessarily misinformation.

54:26

It's just different information

54:26

and it's information that

54:28

we don't necessarily hear

54:28

too much in the media.

54:33

I should also say by the

54:33

way that this data is prior

54:36

to the video appearing

54:36

of Joe Rogan, using the N

54:40

word, more than 24 times.

54:42

and there was also a video

54:42

that came out with, Rogan,

54:46

joking about sexual assault as

54:46

well, which isn't necessarily

54:49

the brightest thing.

54:50

so maybe.

54:50

thoughts may have changed

54:50

since that, but, yeah.

54:54

as I say, I, it is interesting

54:54

seeing that basically

54:58

the concept of freedom of

54:58

speech is actually quite

55:02

a polarizing concept.

55:04

and, I went onto the

55:04

podcast index.social.

55:08

the other day to say, we

55:08

might want to be quite careful

55:12

about promoting podcast

55:12

index as the best end of

55:15

free speech, because 40% of

55:15

Americans don't like that idea.

55:19

and that went down like

55:19

a bucket of sick, but

55:21

nevertheless, it was nice.

55:23

It was worthwhile doing.

55:26

70 Joe Rogan, episodes

55:26

disappeared from

55:29

Spotify last weekend.

55:30

And the reason why is that

55:30

Joe Rogan wanted them gone, at

55:34

least according to Daniel EK.

55:36

Daniel Lac has given some

55:36

guilty money, a hundred

55:38

million dollars, for, audio

55:38

content from historically

55:42