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episode 61: Pay Attention, Cash is King, Bitcoin is the native currency of the Internet and it's raining Sat's on Fountain. [transcript]


GUESTS:

  • Gigi -  Closing the Loop - The Future of Value
  • Oscar Merry - Fountain Podcaster Wallet
  • Evo Terra - Hall of Fame Induction
  • Stewart Townsend - Podcast Hawk

NEWS:

  • Lightning Network is now available on Cash App. It's the fastest, free way to pay anyone in bitcoin. The Lightning Network is a new way to send BTC/SAT that's faster and free!!!

    Some legend gave 100 million sats (1 bitcoin) to Cinemuck, the people behind the movie "Human B" - Gigi #Value4Value 

  • Podcast app Fountain has launched a full Podcaster Wallet, making it the easiest way to earn Bitcoin from your podcast. Just search for your podcast and claim it in the app:  you can monitor how much you earn, and see messages, in the app too.

  • Castos has released a new feature enabling all its podcasters to earn Bitcoin from listeners, as well as links to PayPal, Patreon and others. It’s one of the first podcast hosts to build in support for “value4value”.

  • Exclusive: Mumbler has released what they call the first monetisation study for podcasts in Spain. 

  • This year’s Podcasting Hall of Fame inductees will be unveiled at 9am ET today by Podcast Movement. 
     
  • Podcast Movement: Evolutions: Mar 23 · Los Angeles, California, USA

  • Edison Research has released the top 50 US podcasts for 2021. 

  • Podtrac reports iHeartRadio is #1 for podcasting for January's US publishers list

  • Podchaser has released The Podchaser 25, a list of the “hottest up-and-coming podcasts” in the US. 

  • After the Joe Rogan controversy, 40% of Americans, and 53% of Canadians, think Spotify should exercise editorial control over controversial content.&nbsp


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 2022-02-11  1h25m
 
 
00:00  James
Welcome to Podland the
00:00
last word in podcasting news.
00:03
It's the 10th of February, 2022.
00:05
I am James Cridland, the
00:05
editor of pod news.net.
00:08  Sam
And I'm Sam Sethi, the
00:08
MD of river radio, the podcast
00:11
first radio station going live
00:11
on dab James on the 1st of
00:15  James
March.
00:15  Gigi
Hi, my name is Gigi,
00:15
and I'm here to talk you about
00:18
Bitcoin lightning podcasting
00:18
2.0 and value for us.
00:22  Oscar
Hi, I'm Oscar married
00:22
from fountain dot FN.
00:25
And later I'll be on talking
00:25
about our new podcast, the
00:28
wallet feature, which allows
00:28
any podcast to get setup
00:31
on the Bitcoin lightning
00:31
network in just a few clicks.
00:34  Stewart
Hi, I'm sure
00:34
it towns in CMO and
00:36
co-founder of podcast org.
00:38
I'll be on later on to talk
00:38
about how we can help you
00:40
automate your process of
00:40
getting booked from podcasts.
00:43  Evo
And I am Evo Terra.
00:44
I'll be on later to talk about
00:44
my hall of fame induction.
00:47
Woo.
00:48  James
They will Podland is
00:48
sponsored by Buzzsprout podcast.
00:51
Hosting made easy last week,
00:51
4,400, and one people started
00:54
hosting with Buzzsprout.
00:55
You can too@buzzsprout.com
00:55
and if you can use chapters
00:59
in your podcast app, then
00:59
Buzzsprout supports those two.
01:01  Sam
Now over Christmas,
01:01
James, I decided to read
01:04
about web three, get my head
01:04
around Bitcoin and SATs.
01:07
And on Twitter, there
01:07
was a handle called DGG.
01:12
He was writing some really
01:12
interesting stuff about booster
01:15
grams and adding that to the
01:15
timeline of a podcast player.
01:19
He showed a graphic mock-up and
01:19
he's written a book called 21
01:23
lessons that I learned falling
01:23
down the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
01:25
So I bought the book and
01:25
it was really interesting.
01:28
It was a backgrounder into how
01:28
Bitcoin is now changing the
01:31
way that we use money online.
01:34
In fact he called it.
01:35
Bitcoin is the native
01:35
currency of the internet.
01:37
he went on to say, not only
01:37
is our fit money broken, but
01:40
the monetization model of
01:40
the internet is broken to the
01:44
advertising base platforms.
01:46
Day and age optimize for
01:46
engagement by division and
01:49
polarization using dark patterns
01:49
and addiction by design.
01:53
It won't be easy to break
01:53
out for the compulsion loops
01:55
that are set up for us.
01:57
But thanks to the self-sovereign
01:57
tech stack that is currently
02:00
emerging, there is a
02:00
viable, alternative, the
02:02
value for value model.
02:04
So all of that together,
02:04
his conversation about that,
02:07
his book and his thoughts
02:07
on the attention economy.
02:10
I thought I'd reach
02:10
out to him and we got
02:13
an interview with him.
02:14
I came across Gigi
02:14
over Christmas.
02:17
He wrote a wonderful essay
02:17
about the attention economy
02:21
and micro-payment XXII.
02:22
Hello?
02:22
How are you?
02:23
Hey, Sam.
02:24
I'm doing very well.
02:25
Thanks a lot for having me.
02:26
Now you wrote this blog post
02:26
called the freedom of value.
02:30
It's got a lot of
02:30
attention, no pun intended.
02:34
And it was about the attention
02:34
economy and micropayments.
02:38
What made you write.
02:40
Well, the things actually.
02:41
So I think we can all agree that
02:41
the internet could be better.
02:45
I don't want to say that
02:45
the internet is broken,
02:47
but some parts of the
02:47
internet are broken.
02:49
And I think a lot of it
02:49
has to do with the way
02:52
that payments work online.
02:54
I try to.
02:56
Lay out why we are at
02:56
the current iteration
02:59
of the internet, how we
02:59
pay for things online.
03:01
And I also describe the
03:01
problem of selling information
03:04
in the first place.
03:05
So trying to sell a good, that
03:05
is non scars, like trying to
03:10
sell it an image that you can
03:10
just copy and paste online
03:13
is a very tricky problem.
03:15
And so I think we have to
03:15
think about these things
03:18
differently a little bit.
03:19
This is what this essay is.
03:21
So what is the
03:21
attention economy?
03:23
Explain that to me first,
03:23
basically everyone got used to
03:27
the current situation that we
03:27
find ourselves in neighborly.
03:30
That's, everything is free
03:30
online, and you can just read
03:32
and consume stuff without
03:32
paying for it directly.
03:35
And so you pay.
03:37
With it for other meats and you
03:37
pay by either being the product
03:40
yourself, or by being forced to
03:40
watch a lot of advertisements.
03:45
And of course, like everyone
03:45
knows that data is the new oil
03:50
and we are all being harvested
03:50
by Google and Facebook and
03:53
Amazon and the rest of it.
03:55
And so the name of the
03:55
game is just getting.
03:58
The most few time and the
03:58
most eyeballs possible.
04:02
And we all know these
04:02
kinds of problems.
04:04
I think one great counter
04:04
movement to that is
04:07
long form podcasting.
04:08
So I'm very happy that this is
04:08
happening, but it's sometimes
04:11
suffering a bit from the
04:11
similar problems that the
04:13
written content suffers from
04:13
that every week, everything
04:15
devolves into soundbites.
04:18
Clickbait.
04:18
And you just try to
04:18
get the attention of as
04:21
many people as possible.
04:23
I use this as one of the
04:23
main examples to show where
04:26
this leads and how bad
04:26
the end result can get.
04:29
I use Tik TOK is one
04:29
of the cursed apps.
04:32
Like it really finds out what
04:32
you like, and then it feeds you.
04:37
Crack cocaine.
04:38
It really like it uses AI
04:38
to figure out what you like.
04:40
And then if it fits you,
04:40
the shortest snippets, it
04:43
can, and it gets your really
04:43
addicted really quickly.
04:46
And that's also why
04:46
it's so successful.
04:47
And I think it all has to
04:47
do with how information
04:51
is monetized online.
04:53
And I'm interested in exploring
04:53
alternatives to that model.
04:57
The alternative model is
04:57
adding in micropayment.
05:02
Marc Andreessen Netscape
05:02
said when he created the
05:05
Netscape browser, one of
05:05
his biggest regrets was not
05:09
building in a micropayment
05:09
system at that point.
05:12
We're talking several
05:12
decades ago now.
05:15
And mark Zuckerberg.
05:17
Try to build a micropayment
05:17
system called Libra, thankfully
05:21
that didn't succeed, but we
05:21
now have a new micropayment
05:25
system don't we it's
05:25
based around Bitcoin using
05:28
something called or Sam.
05:30
Can you tell me more about what
05:30
is this new micropayment system?
05:34
It's difficult to understand
05:34
because you have to
05:35
parse everything apart.
05:37
Why do payments.
05:38
Work the way they
05:38
work currently.
05:41
Like why do credit card work
05:41
and how do they work in?
05:43
And you have to understand
05:43
money first and foremost,
05:46
like what money is and what
05:46
its purpose is in society.
05:50
And the difference between.
05:52
Money and the currency and
05:52
also the monetary base and
05:55
the payments like visa and
05:55
MasterCard for example,
05:57
are our payment rails.
05:59
And historically until 1971,
05:59
we were on a gold standard.
06:03
So you had gold.
06:04
That was the base
06:04
reality of money of the.
06:07
The world use basically,
06:07
and we were trading paper
06:10
certificates, and that was
06:10
a sort of payment system on
06:13
top of gold and very similar.
06:14
We now have like, the problem
06:14
with gold is, and with
06:17
traditional monies is that
06:17
they just don't work online.
06:21
Like you cannot send the
06:21
gold bar via an email.
06:23
It just doesn't work.
06:24
So everyone understands it.
06:25
And this is a very hard problem
06:25
and Bitcoin solved this problem.
06:28
And the problem with Bitcoin
06:28
is though that it is not very
06:32
suitable for high-frequency.
06:34
Micropayments.
06:35
So what we currently have
06:35
with podcasting 2.0, and if
06:39
your listeners don't know what
06:39
podcasting to buy, I'd always
06:42
about, I recommend checking it
06:42
out and looking into the work
06:46
of Adam Curry in particular, he
06:46
understood very early on that.
06:50
Now we have a way to send value.
06:53
Online in a micropayment
06:53
fashion so that you can do it
06:56
in a very fine-grained way.
06:58
Every minute you listen to
06:58
a podcast, you can choose
07:00
to stream Satoshis to stream
07:00
small fractions of a Bitcoin
07:04
to the podcast hosts.
07:05
However, it is
07:05
configured basically.
07:07
And so what we have now is
07:07
we have a new kind of money
07:10
that works exclusively.
07:13
In the information space.
07:14
So it's not a physical thing.
07:16
Bitcoin is another
07:16
physical thing.
07:17
You know, like you can't touch
07:17
it, you can't call it in your
07:19
house, but it is money that
07:19
has all the characteristics
07:22
of good money, just like gold.
07:23
It's very much what gold used
07:23
to be in the physical space.
07:26
Bitcoin is in the information
07:26
space and with the lightning
07:29
network, which is basically
07:29
a payment solution, very
07:32
similar to Venmo and PayPal
07:32
and visa and MasterCard.
07:36
These are payments
07:36
solutions on top of the
07:39
existing monetary system.
07:41
And for Bitcoin, the payment
07:41
solution that is currently
07:44
being used at that works
07:44
since Kayla's really well
07:46
is delighting network.
07:47
And so when podcasting 2.0, does
07:47
it combines all these things?
07:50
It realizes that selling
07:50
information, selling
07:53
something to this non scars
07:53
is an impossible problem.
07:56
So you have to.
07:58
Turned a problem on the 10th.
07:59
It's like, here's my podcast.
08:00
Here's my blog post here
08:00
is what I have to offer.
08:04
And if you like it
08:04
you'll get value back.
08:06
This is the core of the
08:06
value for value model.
08:09
So if you enjoy the content,
08:09
you can set up your absence.
08:13
It's like, you don't have
08:13
to even think about it.
08:15
Basically.
08:15
You can set it up that I
08:15
really enjoy this podcast.
08:17
Every time I listen to
08:17
it, I stream Satoshi's.
08:20
I give Bitcoin back
08:20
to the people that,
08:23
that make it happen.
08:24
And so it solves a couple of.
08:27
Problems that we currently have
08:27
online payroll is stonework.
08:30
If something.
08:32
Really good.
08:33
We see this all the time
08:33
with pirated movies and
08:35
those kinds of things.
08:35
If the movie is really good,
08:35
it's really easy to download it.
08:38
If an article is really good,
08:38
someone will take a screenshot
08:40
and we'll circulate it on social
08:40
media, send it around in that
08:43
central center or grab it in
08:43
some other ways someone pays
08:46
the paywall and then you copy
08:46
and paste the whole thing.
08:49
And that's it.
08:49
The article is free.
08:50
So the main thesis that I also
08:50
lay out in the article is since
08:53
information wants to be free
08:53
and information can always
08:55
be copied at zero marginal.
08:57
Don't even try to
08:57
build a cage around it.
09:00
Don't try to sell information.
09:01
Like it was an apple, don't
09:01
try to sell information.
09:04
Like it was a digital good.
09:05
You have to think
09:05
about it differently.
09:07
And this is where the value
09:07
for value model comes in.
09:10
All of it is very new and we
09:10
still have as a podcasting
09:13
community, for example,
09:13
that's a society in general,
09:16
figuring out what works.
09:18
And as you can probably tell
09:18
I'm terribly excited about
09:21
this because it already works.
09:22
And some people that already
09:22
can live off of this model and
09:26
it works for everyone because
09:26
it's an open protocol, just
09:29
like RSS, just like podcasting.
09:30
Like there are no
09:30
good gatekeepers.
09:32
Everyone can just create
09:32
this, set this up.
09:34
And it's a beautiful
09:34
system really.
09:36
And they're really.
09:37
That we can turn this ship
09:37
around, like Aaron turn, it
09:42
turned the internet on its head,
09:42
so to speak and offer more value
09:45
to those that produce content
09:45
to those that enjoy good high
09:48
quality content and the cut out
09:48
the middleman, which are the,
09:52
the platforms of the advertisers
09:52
and so on because with those
09:56
kinds of models, There are
09:56
all kinds of problems that
09:59
immediately enter the picture.
10:00
You run into a censorship issue.
10:01
You run into all
10:01
kinds of issues.
10:03
If someone has a way to
10:03
close down your accounts
10:07
already platform you on
10:07
a long enough time scale.
10:10
This will usually happen.
10:12
Joe Rogan is seeing that
10:12
this weekend was Spotify,
10:14
but so going back to it,
10:14
as you said, let's focus
10:18
back now on podcasting and.
10:20
At value for value.
10:21
We've turned these in podcasting
10:21
boosts to grams and what they
10:26
are from my understanding
10:26
is the ability to be able to
10:29
leave a comment along with a
10:29
micro payment to the creator.
10:33
So the listener can feed
10:33
back on what they think
10:36
of the podcast, but also.
10:38
It gives them some
10:38
micro reward as well.
10:40
One thing I noted was that
10:40
you did a really interesting
10:44
mock-up on Twitter.
10:46
You showed her a podcast
10:46
player with boost to
10:49
grams along the timeline.
10:50
Tell me more about that.
10:52
So the main idea is
10:52
that once someone.
10:56
Since this gram, because the
10:56
payment is attached to it.
11:00
And just maybe since this is
11:00
so new, I assume most people
11:03
are not familiar with this.
11:04
So they, the idea is that
11:04
you have two ways to give
11:07
back in value for value.
11:08
First and foremost, the things
11:08
that we already discussed,
11:11
that you can set up your
11:11
podcast completely voluntary.
11:13
Of course.
11:14
So like you can listen to
11:14
the podcast without giving
11:16
back as well, but let's say
11:16
you have a little bit of
11:19
money in your podcasting
11:19
app, and then you can do.
11:22
That's like a fraction of the
11:22
pennies is stream every minute.
11:25
And this is just like a
11:25
baseline that you give back.
11:30
And if you really like
11:30
something, those new apps,
11:32
they have what are called
11:32
boost buttons or where you
11:34
can send a boost and you can
11:34
think of it as clapping and
11:37
throwing a couple more coins
11:37
into the hats and the article.
11:40
I.
11:41
Busking analogy like
11:41
a street performer.
11:43
If you really like
11:43
something, you just
11:45
throw something in extra.
11:47
And what's so interesting
11:47
about the boosts is, and also
11:50
about the street payments.
11:52
This is a real signal, as
11:52
everyone knows in the podcasting
11:54
world, like all the measurements
11:54
that are being used to pitch
11:58
to advertisers, for example,
11:58
it's like, I have so many
12:00
downloads and I have this
12:00
and that, then those kinds
12:02
of metrics, sentiment, a lot
12:02
of it is nonsense because if.
12:05
Pop catching apps that
12:05
just download all the
12:07
feeds all the time.
12:09
Exactly flames over.
12:10
So it's nonsensical to use
12:10
these kinds of metrics.
12:12
And we have the same issues
12:12
online that there are some
12:15
people like myself that block
12:15
out all the tracking and
12:18
block out all those things.
12:19
And so we don't even show up
12:19
and all these metrics can be
12:23
gained of course, as well.
12:24
If someone decides to
12:24
give you money, it's
12:27
a very strong signal.
12:28
Like it's really a pristine
12:28
high quality signal that
12:31
these are real users.
12:32
These are not bots because
12:32
I bought the army will
12:35
not give you money.
12:36
That's not how it works.
12:36
And it was really engaging
12:36
and it, it provided
12:39
value to them and so on.
12:40
So it's a direct signal.
12:41
And that's what this idea of the
12:41
visualization came from as well.
12:44
Where imagine if you have
12:44
your not only visualization
12:48
and some people might.
12:50
YouTube, for example, where
12:50
you can see what parts of
12:52
the video are being watched.
12:53
And so it's the same idea
12:53
basically, but it's not the
12:56
eyeballs that you track,
12:56
but it's the, the true value
12:59
flows that you track when.
13:01
Press the boost button and
13:01
how much should he gave
13:04
and those kinds of things.
13:05
And the interesting thing
13:05
about Bitcoin and the
13:07
lightning network is that
13:07
there is no middleman.
13:09
It's a censorship resistant
13:09
payment mechanism and you have
13:13
the technical possibility to
13:13
add a small short text message.
13:17
With a payment.
13:18
And so this is being used slash
13:18
abused through built a feedback
13:23
mechanism for the value enabled
13:23
podcasts, where you can send
13:25
a short piece of grandma's
13:25
short message to the podcaster.
13:28
And this is something that we
13:28
explored as well with the things
13:32
that we are working on at the
13:32
tools that we are building.
13:34
What fun ideas can you think of?
13:36
What can you add to this message
13:36
and how will people use this?
13:39
And all of this is currently
13:39
being explored by the
13:41
people at the forefront.
13:42
So one of the things.
13:45
I noticed before Jack Dorsey
13:45
left Twitter was that in
13:49
the Twitter client, he's
13:49
enabled a micropayment
13:53
system using Bitcoin and sat.
13:55
So if you go to the podcast,
13:55
index.org, Twitter account,
13:59
you'll see a currency icon.
14:01
When you click on it, it
14:01
allows you to pay Dave
14:04
Jones and Adam Curry.
14:06
If you say.
14:07
Satoshi is for their
14:07
tweets, which is great.
14:10
Now it isn't common
14:10
knowledge and most people
14:12
aren't using it yet.
14:14
Um, one of the biggest problems
14:14
that most of the podcast
14:17
apps have like fountain and
14:17
the cast offsets you can't
14:21
easily set up a wallet.
14:22
So what I'm trying to
14:22
say is it feels like
14:25
there's stuff going on.
14:26
So the value for value, this
14:26
stuff that's going on with
14:28
boost to grams, the lightning
14:28
network, the stuff on Twitter.
14:32
But I think one of our biggest
14:32
problems as an industry is
14:35
that it's still complex.
14:36
Isn't it?
14:37
It's still which one it should.
14:39
I use.
14:39
How do I set up a wallet?
14:41
Where do I put my fear currency?
14:43
Which one?
14:44
It can I trust?
14:45
How much should I pay?
14:47
Where are you in your head
14:47
with how we address those?
14:51
That's a good question.
14:52
And you're definitely right.
14:53
That it's a little bit confusing
14:53
in the beginning and it's
14:58
very much, do you know those
14:58
like news clips from the early
15:01
nineties when no one knew what
15:01
the internet was and what is.
15:06
W though.
15:07
And so that's where we're
15:07
at currently with Bitcoin.
15:09
No one really understands it
15:09
and it's still a bit clunky
15:12
and weird to use, but I can
15:12
encourage everyone to just give
15:15
it a try because there are some
15:15
wallets that are super user
15:18
friendly already, like wallet of
15:18
Satoshi, for example, this is a
15:21
one that's super easy to set up.
15:23
Breeze is another one
15:23
that I really liked.
15:24
I view Bitcoin as the native
15:24
currency of the internet.
15:28
And if you want to do something.
15:29
Online in the future, you will
15:29
have to have this currency.
15:32
I see myself as
15:32
mostly living online.
15:35
So Bitcoin is my, do you think
15:35
the timeline will be before this
15:40
complexity becomes simplistic?
15:42
Because my favorite
15:42
expression is complexity
15:44
is failed simplicity.
15:46
And where we are right now is
15:46
we're in the complexity people.
15:51
Most people would struggle
15:51
if they had to understand.
15:55
How to set up a wallet and
15:55
how to buy SATs and how
15:58
to then make the payment.
16:00
So in certainly the invoice
16:00
thing is certainly confusing.
16:04
How do you think we're
16:04
going to make this a much
16:06
simpler, easier to understand.
16:10
I think we are very close.
16:11
I think we're almost there in
16:11
the podcasting to Pardot apps.
16:14
For example, you will
16:14
never see an invoice.
16:15
Basically.
16:16
Everything is abstract
16:16
that you press the boost
16:18
button and it just made a
16:18
payment without a middleman,
16:20
which flies across borders.
16:21
And it's virtually
16:21
free, basically instant.
16:24
And, um, for me as a.
16:27
The regular feared world is
16:27
where the complexity lies.
16:30
I can recommend the book that I
16:30
wrote to get a broad overview,
16:35
which is called 21 lessons
16:35
it's available online for free.
16:38
So you can just read it
16:38
without buying the catheter.
16:42
And I run everything that I
16:42
do on a value for value basis.
16:45
All the things that I do
16:45
are free available online.
16:49
And of course, like for
16:49
physical books, you can't copy
16:52
and paste physical books yet.
16:55
So you have to sell them
16:55
in the old fashioned way,
16:58
but everything else I
16:58
give away for free online.
17:01
And if you like it, it's
17:01
very easy to give back.
17:03
If you happen to have a couple
17:03
of subtleties to your name,
17:06
if you have a little bit of.
17:08
And in general in Bitcoin,
17:08
there are a couple of
17:11
great books already now.
17:12
So a couple of years ago
17:12
there were zero books on
17:15
Bitcoin, and now there's
17:15
like a good dozen or two.
17:18
And usually if you really want
17:18
to dig down into the question
17:21
of what is money and the history
17:21
of money, and why do we need
17:25
Bitcoin in the first place?
17:26
The Bitcoin standard
17:26
is often recommended.
17:28
There's also the Bose case for
17:28
Bitcoin, which is a great book.
17:31
If you want to look
17:31
again in the money side
17:34
and then the answering
17:34
the question, how this.
17:37
Play out in the next couple
17:37
of years and decades ahead in
17:39
terms of the lightening and
17:39
payment side of things and the
17:42
podcasting 2.0 side of things.
17:43
This is so new.
17:44
There are no books
17:44
about this yet.
17:46
Basically there's one
17:46
single lightning book,
17:48
which is very technical.
17:48
So it's mostly for programmers.
17:50
I would say.
17:51
I think it's called
17:51
mastering the lightning net.
17:53
You can also read this online
17:53
for free, like it's on good hub.
17:56
If you don't know what GitHub
17:56
is, this book is not for you.
17:59
And so what I would recommend
17:59
if you're interested in
18:02
podcasting 2.0 is look into
18:02
the work of Adam Curry.
18:05
Like he is championing
18:05
a lot of that stuff and
18:08
just play around with it.
18:09
Some great new value
18:09
enabled podcasting apps.
18:12
You can see a list.
18:13
You podcasting apps.com and
18:13
also on the podcast index,
18:17
you can see all the different
18:17
kinds of podcasts that are
18:20
a value enabled them to use
18:20
their value for value model.
18:23
And there are you don't like
18:23
it started out very humbly.
18:26
They were telling us like five
18:26
podcasts that use this stuff.
18:29
And now it's in the a hundred.
18:31
Maybe in a thousand plus,
18:31
and that's what just
18:33
play around with it.
18:34
Again, it might be intimidating
18:34
at first, but don't be afraid
18:38
to buy like $5 worth of
18:38
Bitcoin and play around with
18:41
some new podcasting apps.
18:43
And there's a lot
18:43
of fun to be had.
18:45
I am Gigi on Twitter and also
18:45
there gg.com is where all my
18:48
long form writing is I helped
18:48
to start a podcast as well
18:53
called closing the loop where
18:53
we discuss a lot of the things
18:56
that we discussed today.
18:58
And also the last episode
18:58
where I was on talked a lot
19:01
about the value for value
19:01
model might be an interesting
19:04
followup to this current.
19:05
And again, Bitcoin
19:05
resources.com.
19:08
If you're interested in
19:08
Bitcoin 21 lessons.com, if you
19:11
want to get a broad overview
19:11
of what this all is about
19:14
and where it might lead.
19:15
And that's basically it's thanks
19:15
a lot for having me there.
19:18  James
GG, and a really
19:18
interesting, and I hear
19:21
you talking about the cash
19:21
app, not working yet and
19:24
found him being really hard.
19:26
and there's been used
19:26
on that hasn't though.
19:28  Sam
Yeah.
19:28
really exciting.
19:29
this week, Jack Dorsey who owns
19:29
cash out formerly of Twitter has
19:34
now announced that the lightning
19:34
network integrates with
19:37
Twitter and via the cash app.
19:38
Of course, I tried it now.
19:40
Anyone who wants to try this
19:40
can, if you go on your mobile
19:44
app to the podcast index
19:44
Twitter account, you'll see a
19:48
little dollar icon at the top.
19:50
And when you click on it, it'll
19:50
bring up Bitcoin and Satoshi's
19:54
as mechanism of payment.
19:55
So instead of giving them a
19:55
retweet or a heart, you can
19:59
now actually give them cash
19:59
in the form of Satoshi's.
20:02
last week or the week before,
20:02
when I then clicked open my
20:05
wallet, nothing happened.
20:07
It didn't click
20:07
through to anything.
20:08
It just came up with a
20:08
screen saying custodial
20:11
or non-custodial wallet.
20:13
But this week now that the
20:13
cash apps on lightning, when
20:16
you click it, it opens up
20:16
your cash app and instantly
20:20
you can make a payment.
20:21  James
That's very smart.
20:22
That cash app is available
20:22
in the U S and the UK only.
20:25
so obviously I can't play
20:25
with it, but, it sounds
20:27
as if it's pretty cool.
20:28
I think you can send me an
20:28
D pod news, Bitcoin through
20:32
Twitter, there's a little,
20:32
button on our profiles,
20:35
but we can't use cash apps.
20:37
So it goes direct to
20:37
my umbrella instead.
20:39
which is, probably a fine thing.
20:40
In fact, I think the only thing
20:40
you can do for me, because I'm
20:43
in Australia is you can send me
20:43
Bitcoin, but You can't send me
20:46
SATs over the lightning network,
20:46
which is a bit of a shame.
20:49
But, yeah.
20:49
interesting hearing that, that
20:49
has moved on a little bit.
20:53
and, and also interesting
20:53
seeing, how many
20:56
people are using it.
20:56  Sam
a lot of people using,
20:56
but one person decided
20:59
to give a single Bitcoin,
20:59
a hundred million SATs
21:04
to Sydney muck, the people
21:04
behind the movie, human B.
21:07
that's a hell of a payment.
21:09  James
it is how much is the
21:09
Bitcoin worth these days?
21:11  Sam
I'm not sure what
21:11
40 odd thousand dollars.
21:14  James
Yeah, it's
21:14
a sensible amount.
21:16
It's find out how much is a bit
21:16
coin worth, It's worth $44,261.
21:22
as we record this,
21:22
so yes, very nice.
21:25
So there was that exciting
21:25
news about cash app.
21:28
And you also said that fountain
21:28
app, it was all too complicated
21:31
and blah, blah, blah.
21:32
And there's been some
21:32
movement on that too.
21:34
Hasn't there?
21:34  Sam
Yeah.
21:36
friend of the show.
21:37
he announced.
21:38
Only this week that his podcast
21:38
app fountain has launched they
21:42
full podcast or what it making
21:42
it the easiest way to own
21:45
Bitcoin from your podcast app.
21:47
All you have to do is search
21:47
for your podcast, claim it in
21:51
the app, and you can now monitor
21:51
how much you earn, see messages.
21:56
It's really simple.
21:56
So Oscar gave me a quick
21:56
demo and I caught up
22:00
with him to talk about.
22:01  Oscar
I'm here with Oscar,
22:01
Mary, the founder and CEO of
22:05
the wonderful fountain at Oscar.
22:07
You've got some big news to
22:07
tell us what's happening.
22:10
So we have announced and
22:10
just launched our found
22:14
thin podcost a wallet.
22:16
Now what this does is it
22:16
enables any podcasts out
22:22
there to start receiving
22:22
Bitcoin from their listen.
22:27
Through the value for
22:27
value model that adamant
22:30
day from podcasts.
22:31
And next is set up in just a
22:31
couple of clicks on fountain.
22:35
So what we've done is we've made
22:35
it really easy just to quickly
22:39
claim your podcasts on fountain.
22:41
We'll set you up with a Bitcoin
22:41
lightning wallet and we'll
22:45
update your what's called
22:45
value block in podcast index,
22:48
which means that just after
22:48
those two clicks within.
22:53
You'll be able to stop receiving
22:53
Bitcoin lightening payments
22:56
from your listeners from any
22:56
podcasting costing 2.0 enabled.
23:01
Great.
23:01
Now, does that mean once I'd
23:01
got Satoshis in my wallet?
23:06
Can I export them anywhere?
23:07
Yeah.
23:07
So you can.
23:09
Withdrawal them to any
23:09
Bitcoin lightning wallet.
23:12
We've just seen cash app
23:12
in the U S announced that
23:16
they've rolled out lightning
23:16
to all of their users.
23:18
So you can explore to cash app
23:18
if you want, or any of your
23:21
other Bitcoin lightning wallets.
23:23
Now you've been testing
23:23
clearly with creative
23:26
spots, the feedback, the
23:26
feedback has been great.
23:28
I think one of the interesting
23:28
things that we've found
23:30
over the past six months,
23:30
one of the reasons that we
23:32
wanted to actually build.
23:35
Product for podcast says, is
23:35
that there's a lot of podcasts
23:39
out there that actually do
23:39
have the ability to receive
23:43
Bitcoin lightning payments.
23:45
And they're receiving the
23:45
payments, but they're not
23:47
necessarily receiving all
23:47
of the amazing data that
23:51
goes along with that.
23:52
And that's actually one
23:52
of the most exciting
23:55
things about this feature.
23:56
So within the fountain podcasts,
23:56
You will be able to see not
24:01
only the list of incoming
24:01
transactions, but you'll
24:04
be able to see a summary of
24:04
which users are supporting
24:09
you the most over time.
24:10
And this is not just
24:10
users on fountain.
24:13
This is users supporting you
24:13
from any other port costing
24:16
to point out that you'll also
24:16
be able to see which episodes
24:19
have brought in the most.
24:21
And this is a great
24:21
feedback mechanism for you.
24:23
So you can see that this
24:23
episode was really good
24:25
or maybe the way that I.
24:27
For value back in this episode
24:27
was actually worked really well.
24:30
I'm going to, I'm going to
24:30
go with that script again.
24:33
I also have, we got, obviously
24:33
we've got all of the incoming
24:35
messages as well, so that you
24:35
can just quickly view them and
24:39
then use them as part of your
24:39
show format, um, going forward.
24:42
So we really wanted to make
24:42
it just really easy to have
24:46
all of the data from value,
24:46
for value, just in one place
24:50
where you can access it.
24:52
Congratulations.
24:53
Now, one of the things
24:53
that people may not know,
24:55
there's two forms of wallet,
24:55
wants a non-custodial
24:58
and wants a custodial.
24:59
This is a custodial wallet,
24:59
which means that you
25:02
are holding the warning.
25:03
Correct.
25:04
Right now is a custodial wallet,
25:04
but we're working on ways that
25:09
we can extend that to at least
25:09
have the non-custodial option
25:12
for podcasters that want to
25:12
take it to that next level.
25:14
And there's some
25:14
really exciting things.
25:17
With the lightning network
25:17
that should hopefully
25:19
give us that ability, uh,
25:19
further down the line.
25:22
But right now yet
25:22
is a custodial.
25:24
Now that's brilliant
25:24
for creators.
25:25
Now, looking at the side of you.
25:28
Obviously people who use the
25:28
fountain app can put their
25:31
wallet in and then start to
25:31
reward creators with SAS.
25:36
Do you have any plans to
25:36
integrate with cash app
25:39
or do you have plans to
25:39
create a user enabled wallet
25:43
locally in terms of cash app?
25:47
Person in the U S can already
25:47
send lightning from cash app
25:51
into fountain really easily.
25:53
That works today.
25:54
Obviously the lightening
25:54
within catch-up is not
25:56
available in the UK.
25:58
I think probably we won't
25:58
end up offering the kind of
26:02
fear on ramp or the ability
26:02
to buy Bitcoin or lightning
26:05
because that's fundament.
26:07
A bit of a different
26:07
business model and comes
26:09
with a lot of regulations.
26:10
So we probably will just
26:10
stick with allowing people
26:13
to send that Bitcoin on
26:13
lightning, into fountain.
26:16
I think the great thing that
26:16
cash app shows us is that
26:21
this is not just fountain
26:21
and podcasting 2.0, talking
26:24
about Bitcoin and lightning.
26:25
This is happening globally.
26:27
This is every digital finance
26:27
app that wants to survive
26:31
over the next five years is
26:31
going to have to do this.
26:34
The any poke cost is
26:34
out there that have been
26:37
maybe hesitant about this.
26:38
I think that's a great signal
26:38
to show you that this is
26:40
a round and it's the best
26:40
technology for the job.
26:43
Fundamentally.
26:44
There's no other payments
26:44
technology that allows
26:46
you to stream micro
26:46
payments per minute.
26:49
It just doesn't exist.
26:50
It was a crazy one.
26:51
Somebody given a hundred
26:51
million SATs to this film
26:54
called Cindy mark, a movie
26:54
that say it's just coming out.
26:59
So that will be one Bitcoin,
26:59
but it's around 30,000 pounds.
27:03
Now going forward.
27:04
What else do you have in mind?
27:06
When we first spoke probably
27:06
about six months ago, it
27:09
was all interesting ideas
27:09
and stuff, and every time we
27:14
speak or every time the market
27:14
looks forward, we're beginning
27:17
to move all those difficult
27:17
geeky things out of the way.
27:21
So what do you think is the
27:21
barrier now for mass adoption?
27:24
Great question.
27:25
I think that's two things
27:25
that are limiting the
27:28
growth of body for that.
27:30
I think the first is just making
27:30
that initial onboarding easier.
27:37
So I think cash app
27:37
has made a giant leap
27:40
forward in the U S market.
27:42
I think suddenly you've got
27:42
60 million people that are
27:45
aware of lightning and have a
27:45
lightning wallet on their phone.
27:48
I think internationally though,
27:48
we still don't have the.
27:52
Big players that are
27:52
offering that, but I think
27:54
that will come naturally
27:54
over the next year or so.
27:58
So I'm pretty optimistic
27:58
that we'll solve that.
28:01
The second thing that I think
28:01
is limiting value value is
28:04
just the education around.
28:07
How do you talk about
28:07
it on your podcast?
28:10
How do you explain what
28:10
value for value is, how do
28:13
you ask your listeners to
28:13
send you, uh, do you make
28:17
it part of your show format?
28:18
Like I know you.
28:20
Do the booster Graham corner.
28:21
That's one way of doing it.
28:23
You could ask at the beginning
28:23
of the show, you could ask at
28:25
the end of the show, you could
28:25
do a special Roundup episode
28:28
at the end of each month.
28:29
We're just starting to figure
28:29
out the different options.
28:32
And I think that's a really
28:32
important piece because
28:34
fundamentally it's not
28:34
enough as a podcast that
28:38
value enable your podcast.
28:40
You actually have to talk
28:40
about it on your show.
28:42
You have to talk about it
28:42
regularly in order to get people
28:45
supporting, they will support
28:45
if you ask them, but it takes.
28:48
Do you see a point because
28:48
now you've got the analytics
28:51
about who your superfans are.
28:53
Do you see a queen where
28:53
the creator cause it's
28:57
called value for value
28:57
as a two way street gives
29:01
stats back to the, the sun?
29:03
Definitely.
29:03
I don't see why not.
29:04
I think the really cool
29:04
thing about Bitcoin and
29:07
lightning is that there's
29:07
no limits to what we can do.
29:11
We can be completely creative
29:11
because at the end of the
29:14
day, it's just programmable.
29:16
So I'm really excited
29:16
to see what we can
29:19
do along those lines.
29:21
I think we're still
29:21
at the first stage.
29:23
So that's why we'd launched
29:23
the podcast, the wallet,
29:25
because hopefully now it,
29:25
maybe there's podcasters out
29:28
there that have thought about
29:28
doing this, but maybe they'd
29:31
been a bit puts off by having
29:31
to run their own lightening
29:34
node or some of the other
29:34
options that are out there.
29:37
Now, if you're a poke cost
29:37
that you can just set this up.
29:41
Two clicks within fountain and
29:41
you can start experimenting.
29:44
So I think we've got to
29:44
get as many podcasters on
29:46
board as possible because
29:46
the more podcasts that are
29:48
doing this, the more examples
29:48
we'll see if the best way to
29:52
integrate it into the show.
29:54
I'm really excited to see
29:54
what people do with that.
29:57
I think also the thing that
29:57
you mentioned cash app.
29:59
So when I go to my
29:59
Twitter, Account.
30:02
And I go to the podcast
30:02
index account on Twitter.
30:05
I've got a little
30:05
dollar sign icon.
30:08
When you click on it, it
30:08
brings up a pop-up for
30:10
cash Satoshi's or Bitcoin.
30:12
And in the past that would
30:12
just ask me for a wallet.
30:14
And of course I'm not
30:14
us and it wouldn't have.
30:17
Only yesterday.
30:18
Did I notice when I now
30:18
click open one, it goes
30:20
straight into cash app.
30:21
As I have a local version
30:21
of cash app and I think 300
30:26
million roughly Twitter users.
30:28
So if there is a way that
30:28
even a percentage of that
30:31
starts to get into the Satoshi
30:31
reward system value, I think
30:35
it will begin to go mainly.
30:38
Now very quickly, where
30:38
can people get the fountain
30:40
that tell them where
30:40
they can go and try it?
30:42
So you can download
30:42
fountain on iOS or Android.
30:46
It's live on, uh, both
30:46
of those app stores.
30:49
And if you're a podcaster that
30:49
wants to set up your podcast
30:54
to receive Bitcoin lightning
30:54
through value for value, all
30:57
you have to do on fountain is
30:57
find your show on fountain,
31:03
click the lightning bolt on
31:03
your show page within the.
31:07
And there's a big yellow button
31:07
that just says claim podcast.
31:11
And if you hit that button,
31:11
you would just need to put in
31:14
the owner email address that's
31:14
in your eyes, that's feed,
31:17
just so that we know that you
31:17
have a control over that feed.
31:21
And from there we work with
31:21
Adam and Dave at the podcast
31:24
index to just update your
31:24
value block from there.
31:27
So it's really simple
31:27
one-click process.
31:30
And then you can start
31:30
asking your listeners
31:33
to send you some stuff.
31:35
A magazine or skip.
31:36
Congratulations.
31:37
Once again, look forward to
31:37
the next big update from you.
31:40
Speechy seen mate.
31:42
Amazing.
31:42
Thanks to my son.
31:44
Pleasure.
31:45  James
Oscar Mary from fountain,
31:45
you can download fountain
31:48
at today on both iOS and on
31:48
Android, anywhere in the world.
31:53
Amazing.
31:54
It works anywhere in the world.
31:55
Who'd have thought it and
31:55
you can give that a go listen
31:58
to this podcast on there,
31:58
and you'll see all kinds of
32:02
exciting things about streaming
32:02
sets and about boosts too and
32:06
castoffs has released a new
32:06
feature, which also enables
32:09
all of its podcast is to
32:09
earn Bitcoin from listeners.
32:12
it's one of the first
32:12
podcast hosts to build in
32:14
support for value as well.
32:16
So if you're on castoffs, if
32:16
you're hosting on castoffs,
32:19
then you can, add the,
32:19
Bitcoin information into
32:22
there and away you go.
32:24
And I think the difference
32:24
though, between castoffs
32:27
and fountain is that car
32:27
stars has enabled a space
32:31
for you to type in your
32:31
Bitcoin node information.
32:35
So that sort of thing, but
32:35
what fountain has done is
32:37
they've gone the whole hog.
32:38
So they've given you
32:38
a proper podcast, a
32:42
wallet, which includes.
32:43
All of that stuff.
32:45
So it's a very different things.
32:47
So many congratulations
32:47
to Oscar, for doing that.
32:49
And it's great to hear.
32:51  Sam
Now, you had a report,
32:51
which I thought was really
32:54
good to juxtapose to all
32:54
of this integration with
32:58
cash and a fountain app.
33:00
It was a report from mumbler
33:00
that was released in Spain,
33:04
where they looked at how
33:04
podcasts is monetizing.
33:07
What was the reports about
33:08  James
James?
33:09
Yeah.
33:09
So it's, a report,
33:09
looking at, how different,
33:13
podcasts in Spain.
33:15
so Spanish language obviously,
33:15
but different podcasts in
33:17
Spain are earning money or not.
33:19
As the case may be 47% of people
33:19
said that they're not earning
33:24
money from their podcast,
33:24
but quite a lot of people are
33:27
from all kinds of things like
33:27
selling their own services to
33:30
sponsorship and advertising
33:30
and so on and so forth.
33:32
Just, a lot of really useful
33:32
information around, podcasters
33:37
and monetizing of, all of
33:37
that from a mumbler, which
33:41
is a Spanish company and
33:41
it was kind of them to have
33:44
got in touch with, pod news
33:44
and given us an English
33:47
translation in there as well.
33:48
yeah, if you want to have
33:48
a peak at that, you will
33:50
find it a couple of days
33:50
ago in the pod news new.
33:54
Yeah.
33:54  Sam
the reason why I found
33:54
it interesting was how they're
33:56
making money from their podcast.
33:58
And if you juxtapose that back
33:58
to what we were talking about
34:01
with Satoshis and value for
34:01
value, how long it'll be before
34:05
podcasts are simply to, all
34:05
that other stuff that's selling
34:08
Casper mattresses and Dar.
34:10
Advertising are can't
34:10
be bothered with it.
34:13
Or will the big podcasts still
34:13
sell advertising, but the long
34:17
tail focus on just building
34:17
small network community.
34:20  James
Yeah, I think, I'm a
34:20
big fan of not diving into
34:24
a binary, idea here and it
34:24
must be one or the other.
34:28
I think the value for
34:28
value absolutely fits in
34:30
as well as advertising.
34:32
I think that
34:32
advertising has a place.
34:33
I think that sponsorship has.
34:35
And I think the value for
34:35
value has a place and actually
34:38
they can co-exist if you
34:38
want them to, you can choose
34:40
one or the other, if you
34:40
want to do that as well.
34:43
But I think, the advertising
34:43
model is tried and tested,
34:46
and value for value is
34:46
actually tried and tested.
34:48
Just ask Adam Curry about that.
34:50
I think anything that,
34:50
offers creators choice
34:52
in how they produce their
34:52
content is a good thing.
34:56
So really excited to hear that.
34:58
You know, the future, isn't
34:58
just selling Casper mattresses.
35:01
The future is all kinds of
35:01
other things in there as well.
35:04
And
35:04  Sam
we're not sponsored
35:04
by Casper mattress
35:06
just to be clear.
35:08  James
No, we're not.
35:08
We're sponsored by
35:08
Buzzsprout though.
35:09
And by sprouted, jolly good
35:09
looking forward to seeing
35:12
them at podcast movement,
35:12
and also looking forward to
35:15
seeing this year's podcasting
35:15
hall of fame, inductees,
35:18
which will be unveiled.
35:20
Yeah,
35:20  Sam
they unveiled, yesterday
35:20
at 9:00 AM Eastern time.
35:24
and who was in the hall of fame?
35:26  James
Oh, lots of exciting
35:26
people in the hall of fame,
35:29
ginger Campbell, who is
35:29
the host of brain science,
35:32
mark Marron, who does WTF.
35:34
What's that for,
35:34
with mark Marin?
35:36
I know that's not what it stands
35:38  Sam
for.
35:40
I thought that was
35:40
quite clever if it was,
35:41  James
but I think it should.
35:43
What's that for we've married,
35:43
Mikayla Matthews, who is
35:46
host of side hustle, pro Dr.
35:49
Emily Morse, who
35:49
is host of second.
35:51
Emily and CEO of chick flicks
35:51
productions, Dave Sasha.
35:56
Now, it said in the release
35:56
that he, his host and producer
35:58
of evil genius Chronicles,
35:58
I will tell you that Dave
36:01
Slusher was the first podcaster
36:01
to say the word podcast.
36:06
And our podcast, according
36:06
to my Myra research.
36:10
So Dave Slusher knows a thing
36:10
or two about this world.
36:14
He started podcasting
36:14
in 2004 and has been
36:18
doing it ever since.
36:20
Also Glen Washington, who's
36:20
producer of snap judgment,
36:23
Molly wood, who I used to
36:23
listen to a long time ago
36:25
on nets, a buzz out loud.
36:28
she is now working on
36:28
this week in startups.
36:31
and finally a very nice man,
36:31
a proud bid owner and pipe
36:37
owner, the host of podcast
36:37
pontifications and CEO of
36:41
simpler media productions.
36:43
Evo Terra.
36:44  Sam
Yeah.
36:44
I caught up with him yesterday
36:44
just to say congratulations
36:47
and find out what he felt.
36:49
Having gotten his hall of fame.
36:51
I'm honored.
36:53
I'd got one of the new
36:53
hall of fame, inductees
36:57
friend of the show.
36:59
Truly wonderful.
37:00
It's Evo Terra.
37:01
Hello.
37:02  Evo
Fine, Sam fine.
37:04
Thanks for having me on here.
37:05
The funny thing is I used
37:05
to be sent out into the hall
37:08
quite a bit as a student, but
37:08
being inducted into the hall
37:11
of fame is quite an honor
37:13  Sam
tying that
37:13
back to the teacher.
37:15
Exactly.
37:15
He talks too much.
37:17
He'll never make anything of it.
37:19
Now look at
37:19  Evo
it.
37:20
It doesn't apply himself.
37:22
Can't stay focused, wants
37:22
to talk nonstop, tries
37:25
to make everybody laugh.
37:26
Hey, look, what I got.
37:28
When did you find that out?
37:30
I got the announcement this
37:30
morning, obviously, as everybody
37:32
else did here in the states,
37:32
when the embargo is dropped
37:34  at 9
00 AM Eastern time.
37:36
But I got a phone call from
37:36
them a couple of weeks back.
37:39
And really the reason the
37:39
phone call was to say, are
37:42
you coming to the event?
37:43
I don't think the award
37:43
gifting was predicated on
37:46
your attendance or not.
37:46
I think they were saying, if
37:46
not, can you shoot a video?
37:48
But I said, luckily I
37:48
have already purchased
37:51
a ticket to the event.
37:52
So good news.
37:53
I will actually be there to
37:53
pick up my piece of acrylic.
37:57
Well,
37:58  Sam
James, now we'll be
37:58
out there with you as well.
38:00
So we look
38:00  Evo
forward to it.
38:01
It'll be fun to meet
38:01
in person for the first
38:03
time I'm looking forward.
38:04
Indeed
38:05  Sam
now, what does
38:05
it mean to be in the
38:07  Evo
hall of fame?
38:08
So I'm pretty stoked
38:08
because as I said, in
38:11
my episode of podcast,
38:11
pontifications, which I've
38:13
decided to release tomorrow.
38:14
Cause not everybody can
38:14
go to the award ceremony.
38:16
It makes me sound a little
38:16
bit like a dirt bag here,
38:18
but I'm not the kind of
38:18
guy that actually seeks.
38:21
Awards.
38:22
I'm not that way in podcasting.
38:23
I was never that way.
38:24
When I ran an agency, in fact,
38:24
the agencies that I worked at,
38:26
we had a policy that we would
38:26
not submit to awards because
38:29
we wanted it to be about the
38:29
work itself and not about
38:32
the accolades that we get.
38:33
So that's something I've
38:33
carried with me for awhile,
38:35
but at the same time,
38:35
I'm incredibly honored.
38:39
I've been doing this for
38:39
a long time and to be
38:41
recognized by my peers, many
38:41
of what you've also been.
38:45
For a long time.
38:46
It's almost overwhelming just
38:46
to look at the list of people
38:49
who are in there already.
38:50
And to know that some of them
38:50
said this guy's efforts and
38:53
podcasting is worth having
38:53
that accolade to his name.
38:56
Now, what
38:57  Sam
do you think is going
38:57
to be happening this year?
39:00
2022 in podcasting?
39:01
It's early enough in the air.
39:02
Let's get Evo Tara's
39:04  Evo
view on that.
39:04
Like every year, this
39:04
is the year podcasting.
39:06
And we've been saying
39:06
that for the longest time,
39:08
but it continues to feed.
39:11
That there's so
39:11
much opportunity.
39:13
Last year was a big mergers
39:13
and acquisition year.
39:16
I don't think 20, 22 is
39:16
going to be any less of that.
39:20
In fact, for the rumblings that
39:20
I'm hearing out there, I think
39:22
it's going to be more, so we're
39:22
going to keep seeing large
39:26
companies swinging large bags of
39:26
money around and entering this
39:29
space, or conglomerating this.
39:32
And that's both good and bad
39:32
for all of podcasting, but
39:35
I tend to like it as a good
39:35
thing, changes always comes
39:38
with its challenges, but I
39:38
think it's a good thing because
39:40
that will continue to put the
39:40
spotlight on podcasting and
39:46
hopefully in ways that continue
39:46
to bring more people into.
39:51
We'll have to wait and see
39:51
what the numbers come out
39:53
from medicine research this
39:53
year, but we haven't cracked
39:55
that 30% number in the states.
39:57
At least the people who listen
39:57
on a regular weekly basis.
39:59
So I'm hopeful that we'll see
39:59
more people coming into the
40:04
space as the, as more attention
40:04
is poured on it from these
40:06
big mergers and acquisitions.
40:08
My big
40:08  Sam
bet with James is
40:08
the Netflix will buy
40:10  Evo
Spotify.
40:11
So that's one of many ideas that
40:11
I've heard floated around there.
40:13
Google will they do something
40:13
in podcasting worthwhile or not?
40:16
How many times
40:16
have we said that?
40:18
I dunno, maybe it's
40:18
finally the time for
40:20
YouTube to do something.
40:21
I think the people that
40:21
run YouTube or are a little
40:23
different than the regular
40:23
Googlers, and I think they
40:25
see all the attention of
40:25
podcasting that's taking place.
40:28
So they may come in and
40:28
make it a big change.
40:30
I'm always puzzled.
40:32
And I've been puzzled
40:32
about this since the
40:33
beginning of podcasting.
40:34
Why audible, which is
40:34
now owned by Amazon.
40:37
Doesn't take a bigger stake.
40:38
Podcasting, audible.
40:41
What apple did with iTunes
40:41
back in 2005, they would
40:44
clearly be the default standard
40:44
because they already had a
40:47
spoken word mobile platform.
40:49
And the fact that they don't
40:49
do more always puzzles me.
40:52
So I'm not counting Amazon
40:52
slash audible out of making
40:56
a next great big push and
40:56
flipping things upside
40:59  Sam
down.
41:00
The other interesting
41:00
thing that I think.
41:02
And I've just interviewed
41:02
OptiScan Mary and a Gigi as well
41:07
is about the value from value.
41:09
So Tashi payments, micropayment
41:09
systems, it was exciting to
41:12
see cash out, supporting the
41:12
lightning network last night.
41:16
And it's been exciting to see
41:16
how that's already integrated
41:19
straight into Twitter now.
41:21
So quick access to wallets
41:21
and give the 300 million
41:25
odd people who use Twitter.
41:27
Nah, a nice slither of that.
41:28
Maybe 5% can get their
41:28
heads around creating
41:32
a digital wallet.
41:33
And instead of giving you
41:33
a heart or a like, or a
41:36
retweet giving you some
41:36
stats, I think that's a great
41:39
step in, hopefully, maybe.
41:42
Paul fade go away.
41:43
Podcasters who create
41:43
something, but get frustrated
41:46
that there's no engagement or
41:46
interaction or monetization.
41:49
None of us really want
41:49
to sell Casper mattresses
41:52  Evo
by that too.
41:52
I am not a crypto bro.
41:54
I get it a little bit.
41:55
I have spent hundreds of the
41:55
dollars on crypto, right?
42:00
Not anything more than that.
42:02
I like the idea of
42:02
value for value.
42:04
To me, the biggest barrier
42:04
is getting people who are not
42:07
crypto bros to get on board.
42:09
And this is not for
42:09
the faint of heart.
42:11
It takes work from both
42:11
sides, from the podcast or
42:13
side or from the podcast
42:13
listener side to do something.
42:16
So seeing.
42:18
Like, I know the
42:18
fountains released some
42:20
new stuff coming on.
42:20
There's a bunch of others that
42:20
are now making it a much easier
42:23
onboarding process when it's
42:23
as easy as giving someone at
42:28
PayPal payments or signing
42:28
up for a Patrion account or
42:32
clicking that tip button, as
42:32
you mentioned in Twitter right
42:35
now, when it's that simple
42:35
and it's that integrated, I
42:38
think that is an engagement.
42:39
Some people do more often
42:39
say yes, I would like to
42:42
show my love to that podcast.
42:44
Are there now?
42:44
Will there be enough?
42:46
That do that.
42:47
There is still the 99 1 rule
42:47
that says 90% of your audience
42:51
won't do anything 9% maybe
42:51
will, and 1% will do it.
42:54
So if you're a podcast with
42:54
a hundred listeners, which
42:56
is around the average number
42:56
of listeners, the average
42:59
podcast has a, that means,
42:59
well, give you some boost.
43:03
That mean a feed
43:03
from pod fading.
43:04
I don't really know, but
43:04
nonetheless, I am encouraged
43:08
by making it easier to
43:08
access this form of listeners
43:11
and maybe not the head.
43:13  Sam
If only 1% the head get it.
43:15
But I think if you're a small
43:15
podcast run and you get that
43:18
engagement back, it reminds
43:18
me of blogging in the day.
43:22
When you blogs, just getting
43:22
a comment in your blog.
43:25
You gave you that extra
43:25
juice to go write your next
43:28
post because you thought my
43:28
God, I've just sweated tears
43:32
and blood over this thing.
43:33
And someone's actually read it
43:33
and giving me something back.
43:36
I think that may be just
43:36
the requirement of it rather
43:40
than it's my retirement
43:40
fund, but it could be just,
43:43
you know what, that's just
43:43
a nice pat on the back.
43:45
Thank you so much for letting
43:45
me know you're listening
43:48
and I'm onto my next
43:49  Evo
step.
43:50
I remember back when
43:50
Twitter first hit the
43:52
scene a few months into it.
43:53
One of its benefits
43:53
was quite often.
43:56
You'd write that blog post
43:56
and you check the next day
43:59
and you get a big goose
43:59
egg for comments, but back
44:03
then, we're talking 2006.
44:05
You could put a tweet out and
44:05
within 10 minutes you get off.
44:09
Okay, you get, maybe
44:09
somebody would retweet it
44:11
even with a small audience.
44:12
So if we podcasters and more
44:12
importantly, the podcast app
44:16
makers can figure out a way to
44:16
provide that sort of a feedback
44:22
mechanism to just so you know,
44:22
people are actually listening
44:26
because you don't know that.
44:27
You only know that from your
44:27
download numbers, which don't
44:29
mean lessons, you can log
44:29
into apple or you can log
44:31
into Spotify and get that.
44:32
But even that's only a sliver
44:32
of your, of the information
44:35
that is tied to that platform.
44:36
But if you could know, overall
44:36
people are continuing to
44:39
get what you want to say.
44:41
I think that helps
44:41
podcasters keep.
44:43
And also help refine your show.
44:45
If splitting this kind
44:45
of content out gets me
44:48
more kudos, gets me more.
44:50
Woofy whatever word you want
44:50
to use, then that's the way
44:53
I will structure my show.
44:54
That's hard to do when you get
44:54
one piece of feedback a month.
44:59
Now
45:00  Sam
with the hall of fame,
45:00
once you get, you get a
45:01
plaque because you got a
45:01
badge, what have you got
45:03  Evo
full of fame?
45:04
I get a Learjet and a
45:04
lifetime supply of cookies.
45:08
No, I have no idea what I
45:08
get actually about half of
45:11
the recipient from prior
45:11
years are friends of mine
45:14
because I've been in this
45:14
space for so stinking long.
45:16
I know they've got a plaque
45:16
and we get to be up on
45:18
stage and do some stuff.
45:19
But beyond that, as
45:19
far as what the other.
45:22
Bonus pieces we get for being
45:22
that other than bragging rights.
45:25
I'm not sure.
45:26
I guess I will find out when
45:26
and or if something arrives
45:30
in the mail or when I'm on
45:30
stage at podcast movement,
45:34  Sam
Eva terror, remember
45:34
lasers and gentlemen, you need
45:36
to bow now you'll be wearing
45:36
Ermin and a golden set to,
45:40
with a microphone on the top.
45:41
That's how you're
45:42  Evo
recognizing.
45:43
Yep.
45:43
I'll be just like Chris
45:43
Rock's character in
45:46
fifth element Ruby ride.
45:49
On a more
45:49  Sam
serious.
45:50
Now, if anyone wants to
45:50
listen to your brilliant
45:52
podcast, where can they go
45:53  Evo
check out podcast?
45:55
Pontifications, that's
45:55
probably the biggest thing
45:57
that I'm doing these days.
45:58
It is designed for
45:58
podcasters like yourself.
46:01
We talk about the future and
46:01
the present of podcasting
46:03
and discuss ways that we can.
46:05
All of us podcasts were
46:05
to work together to
46:07
make podcasting better.
46:09
Say, thanks, Sam.
46:11  James
The very nice Evo
46:11
Terra he's promised me a
46:14
beer or he's promised that
46:14
I can buy him a beer at
46:17
podcast movement evolution.
46:19
Yeah.
46:20
I don't really know
46:20
which way round, but
46:21
anyway, however it works.
46:23
and so looking forward to
46:23
seeing him there and if you
46:26
want to see, the hall of
46:26
Famers being given all of
46:31
their fancy trophies and
46:31
everything else, it's presented
46:33
by Libsyn and it's on March
46:33
the 25th at podcast movement
46:38
evolutions in Los Angeles.
46:40
You don't need a ticket for
46:40
podcasts moving to evolution, as
46:43
you can just rock up, I believe.
46:44
and a watch.
46:45
so that's all very good.
46:46
And of course you can
46:46
also watch online too.
46:49  Sam
We'll be watching live.
46:50
James
46:50  James
won't.
46:51
We.
46:51
we were watching live there.
46:52
Yes.
46:52
Our be giving, all of the
46:52
inductees, a big round of
46:57
applause and everything else
46:57
under hopefully trying to
47:00
record a little bit for the
47:00
pod news podcast as well.
47:04  Sam
charts.
47:05
everyone loves a chart there
47:05
and they, James there's a
47:07
lot of them out this week.
47:08
ed, some research has
47:08
released the top 50 U
47:11
S podcasts for 2021.
47:13
Who's in the list.
47:14  James
Well, amazingly
47:14
enough, the Joe Rogan
47:16
experience is number one.
47:18
and in fact, the top
47:18
five haven't changed.
47:20
So what Edison research
47:20
do is they release this
47:23
report every quarter.
47:25
It contains, the last 12 months.
47:28
Podcasts listening.
47:29
And the way that they do
47:29
it is they ask people every
47:31
single week, what podcasts
47:31
are you listening to?
47:33
and, they end up with a
47:33
great big list of very
47:37
popular podcasts in there.
47:39
from number five to number
47:39
one at five stuff, you
47:41
should know what for this
47:41
American life at three crime
47:44
drunk here to the daily.
47:46
And number one is the
47:46
Joe Rogan experience.
47:47
so that was nice to hear.
47:49
But then there was another
47:49
chart, pawn track, who,
47:51
release a chart every
47:51
month or so, which is
47:54
participating publishers only.
47:56
And it shows that I, heart radio
47:56
is number one for podcasts.
47:59
And the number one is the daily,
47:59
which is all very exciting.
48:05
And NPR number two, and a
48:05
number three and NBC news
48:09
up at number four at the
48:09
Ben Shapiro show at five.
48:12
So you've got that chart,
48:12
which has gone on as well.
48:16
And then you've got
48:16
the pod chaser 25.
48:20  Sam
I list of the hottest
48:20
up and coming podcasts.
48:24
So come on then.
48:25
James, who's the hottest
48:25
in upcoming podcast in
48:28
the pod chaser twenty-five
48:29  James
I asked how
48:29
they, worked it out.
48:31
and families who kill
48:31
is the number one show.
48:34
Never heard of it, but
48:34
maybe that's the point.
48:36
of how all of this works.
48:37
it's worked out by a
48:37
proprietary scoring system.
48:40
A pod chaser have listening
48:40
stats from a podcast app, or
48:45
maybe a couple of podcast apps.
48:47
they won't tell me what
48:47
the podcast apps are.
48:49
The only thing that they
48:49
will say is 20 million years.
48:53
But I don't know whether
48:53
that's 20 million users in
48:55
the us or across the world.
48:56
but, they also have though
48:56
another 29 data points,
49:00
which they wouldn't tell
49:00
me what any of those are.
49:02
apparently some of
49:02
them has something to
49:04
do with social media.
49:05
So maybe if you follow followed
49:05
on social media a little bit
49:07
more, then you might get a
49:07
little bit higher in this
49:09
chart and blah, blah, blah.
49:10
but I could get very little
49:10
information about any of this.
49:13
and they're called hottest
49:13
up and coming podcasts.
49:16
I went through the list.
49:17
One of the podcasts in that pod
49:17
chaser 25 was released only
49:22
a couple of weeks ago, right?
49:24
At the end of January.
49:26
some of the other charts in the
49:28
Paul Chase chaser 25
49:28
were released at the
49:31
beginning of December.
49:32
So I'm not quite sure
49:32
how that works in terms
49:35
of these charts as well.
49:36
And I'm just, I don't, I dunno,
49:36
I'm just looking at pod tracer
49:40
and I'm thinking there's an
49:40
awful lot of black boxes there
49:43
where they're not telling
49:43
anybody how anything works.
49:45
And I'm just a little bit
49:45
dubious about the whole thing.
49:49
I thought I'd go
49:49
in and have a look.
49:51
I can see, the data
49:51
for pod news in there.
49:55
So I thought, that'll be
49:55
interesting seeing what
49:57
that data shows and how
49:57
many listeners that it
50:00
thinks that pod news has.
50:01
It thinks that pod news does
50:01
25,000 downloads a month,
50:06
except pod news does a hundred
50:06
thousand downloads a month.
50:09
So that's wrong by
50:09
a factor of four.
50:11
again, I'm just slightly
50:11
worried that they've got this
50:15
tech, which isn't probably
50:15
tuned particularly well, and
50:19
they're diving into something
50:19
which just seems a bit
50:23
proprietary and a big black box.
50:24
And if they're not telling
50:24
us quite how it's worked out,
50:27
then, I don't know, I'm just
50:27
slightly dubious, but maybe
50:30
I'm just being miserable
50:30
about the whole thing.
50:32
And maybe they're
50:32
doing a fantastic
50:34
thing for the industry.
50:35  Sam
Have you called over
50:35
the January blues yet?
50:37
You not quite
50:37
finished with them.
50:39
Have you?
50:41  James
Ah, I would tell
50:41
you what a thing to say.
50:44
it's all this talking
50:44
about Joe Rogan.
50:46
That's what it is.
50:46
I'm really hoping that we're not
50:46
going to talk about Joe Rogan.
50:49  Sam
we pushed it all the way
50:49
down to the bottom as far as we
50:51
could, but I think we have days.
50:53
the boy likes to be in the news.
50:54
He is the number one,
50:54
as we just said all over
50:57
the Edison research.
50:58
you can see why Spotify
50:58
love him as well.
51:00
you had an exclusive
51:00
this week, James, from.
51:03
report about what's going
51:03
on with the Joe Rogan
51:06
controversy, what was the
51:06
exclusive report about?
51:09  James
Yeah, it was exclusive
51:09
data and really good to see
51:13
this information because
51:13
it really made you think,
51:16
it came from signal hill
51:16
insights, it's data from
51:19
both Americans and Canadians.
51:21
And I think that's important.
51:23
Yeah.
51:23
when you look at, the Canadian
51:23
data, 53% of people say that
51:28
Spotify has a responsibility
51:28
for editorial control, that
51:32
is considerably lower, only
51:32
40% of people for Americans,
51:36
but that's still the most
51:36
popular choice for Americans,
51:39
but it's really polarized.
51:41
if you have a look in the
51:41
middle, of people who really
51:44
haven't made a decision one
51:44
way or the other, should
51:47
Spotify have editorial control,
51:47
should it be Joe Rogan,
51:50
should Joe Rogan be able to
51:50
release anything he wants?
51:52
then there's a little bit
51:52
of information, Then there's
51:55
really not that much.
51:56
middle ground it's either.
51:58
I really believe that, Joe
51:58
Rogan is wrong and that Spotify
52:02
should be, exerting editorial
52:02
control or on the other side,
52:05
Joe Rogan can feature whoever.
52:08
And that's particularly strong
52:08
in terms of Americans, 37%
52:12
of all Americans say that Joe
52:12
Rogan can say whatever he wants
52:15
because of that whole freedom of
52:15
speech thing, which is very much
52:18
part of the American culture.
52:19
But as you can see here, not
52:19
part of the Canadian culture.
52:22
So I just thought it was
52:22
really interesting data
52:24
from signal hill insights.
52:27
And there's a bunch more
52:27
data in the report that they,
52:29
kindly shared, with, as well.
52:31
and I think it just goes to
52:31
show that actually, a it's
52:34
really polarized, but also B
52:34
don't go thinking that everybody
52:39
wants freedom of speech because
52:39
that's definitely not the case.
52:42
And don't go thinking that
52:42
everybody just wants Spotify
52:45
to editorially control this.
52:47
Because again, that's
52:47
definitely not the case either.
52:50
It's very much a very
52:50
polarized view on
52:53
that.
52:54  Sam
So yeah, you're talking
52:54
about myopic Americans again.
52:56  James
Well, good Lord.
52:57
Mr.
52:58
Sethi, do you want to
52:58
get into Los Angeles in
53:00
a couple of weeks time?
53:01
I
53:01  Sam
certainly won't be
53:01
mentioning that to the,
53:03
border control man though.
53:05  James
I don't know whether
53:05
it's a myopic Americans.
53:07
I don't think that's
53:07
particularly fair, but I do
53:09
think that there is a definite
53:09
difference in terms of culture.
53:12
And I think that's where.
53:14
We have found it difficult
53:14
to talk about this because
53:18
we have different cultures.
53:19
We are not American.
53:21
And I think that
53:21
is, the big thing.
53:23
the other thing that came out
53:23
of this is if you listen to
53:27
the Joe Rogan experience, then
53:27
you completely side with Jerry.
53:32
Absolutely you do.
53:34
I'm the only one in five of
53:34
Joe Rogan listeners think
53:38
that Spotify should have
53:38
any responsibility at all.
53:41
whereas Joe Rogan listeners,
53:41
for us of five nearly basically
53:44
say, absolutely Joe Rogan
53:44
should invite whoever he
53:47
wants on and they should
53:47
say whatever they like.
53:50
so again, really interesting
53:50
seeing that sort of side of it.
53:52
Yeah.
53:53
I
53:54  Sam
don't have an issue with
53:54
Joe Rogan, having any guest
53:56
on and saying what he likes.
53:58
I think it's up to him.
53:59
I was listening to Kara Swisher
53:59
and Scott Galloway and they
54:02
were saying, look, this is not
54:02
cancel culture, which Daniel
54:05
Lac was trying to label it too.
54:07
This is just about simple facts.
54:09
This is misinformation.
54:11
And you can't be going
54:11
around talking about certain
54:14
things, informing people
54:14
wrongly when they're not
54:17
facts and that's all.
54:18
Correct the facts or but
54:18
you can't call it canceled.
54:23  James
And playing
54:23
devil's advocate.
54:24
Of course it's not
54:24
necessarily misinformation.
54:26
It's just different information
54:26
and it's information that
54:28
we don't necessarily hear
54:28
too much in the media.
54:33
I should also say by the
54:33
way that this data is prior
54:36
to the video appearing
54:36
of Joe Rogan, using the N
54:40
word, more than 24 times.
54:42
and there was also a video
54:42
that came out with, Rogan,
54:46
joking about sexual assault as
54:46
well, which isn't necessarily
54:49
the brightest thing.
54:50
so maybe.
54:50
thoughts may have changed
54:50
since that, but, yeah.
54:54
as I say, I, it is interesting
54:54
seeing that basically
54:58
the concept of freedom of
54:58
speech is actually quite
55:02
a polarizing concept.
55:04
and, I went onto the
55:04
podcast index.social.
55:08
the other day to say, we
55:08
might want to be quite careful
55:12
about promoting podcast
55:12
index as the best end of
55:15
free speech, because 40% of
55:15
Americans don't like that idea.
55:19
and that went down like
55:19
a bucket of sick, but
55:21
nevertheless, it was nice.
55:23
It was worthwhile doing.
55:26
70 Joe Rogan, episodes
55:26
disappeared from
55:29
Spotify last weekend.
55:30
And the reason why is that
55:30
Joe Rogan wanted them gone, at
55:34
least according to Daniel EK.
55:36
Daniel Lac has given some
55:36
guilty money, a hundred
55:38
million dollars, for, audio
55:38
content from historically
55:42