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Hey friends and lovers! Allow us the honour of keeping you company with our weekly TV and movie podcast with your hosts KT and Oti.

https://fyrpodcast.com/episodes/

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episode 166: The Panthers - Fighting worldwide pain through local radical change [transcript]


Ahh! A thriving New Zealand where the economic boom is powered by colonial superiority, racism and Pacific Island labour. Fight the power with The Panthers this week. Patron shoutout to Emele and the team at Studio Kiin! 

Sources:

Once a Panther podcast by Stuff NZ
Polynesian Panther documentary by Nevak 'Ilohahia
Nua Finau interview on The Provise Project
History on The Black Panther Party by One Mic Black History



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 2022-03-15  53m
 
 
00:00  KT
It's another week in the
00:00
four year reference household
00:02
and guess what are at we have a
00:02
new patrons shout out that's me
00:11
enjoying the dance hall but not
00:11
occupying it ot SPEAKING OF
00:15
STORY sovereignty, shout outs,
00:15
love and solutions to MLA and
00:19
the team at Studio. Ken, thank
00:19
you so much for coming on board.
00:23
As patrons were invited to an
00:23
interactive show, just a couple
00:29
of months ago, they have really
00:29
exciting stuff. So make sure you
00:32
sign up to their newsletter.
00:32
We'll put it as a part of quid
00:35
promo in our show notes, as well
00:35
as unravel podcasts and so what
00:40
akin speaking of indigenous lead
00:40
stories are T let's get on with
00:44
the show.
01:10
Hello, lay friends and lovers.
01:10
Welcome back to the four year
01:13
reference podcast. You got your
01:13
host Katie,
01:16  Oti
and Dodie.
01:18  KT
Hi there my two a thrilling
01:18
New Zealand where the economic
01:23
boom is powered by colonial
01:23
superiority, racism and Pacific
01:28
Island labor. Who fight the
01:28
power with the Panthers this
01:33
week. Who who let's get into a
01:33
general stats and information
01:40
produced and created by halau
01:40
for Noah Finau as well as Tom
01:45
Hearn, as well as writing we
01:45
have Tom driba James Napier
01:49
Robertson Sully more as well as
01:49
fear and Samuel in way of
01:53
directors. We have Mickey manga
01:53
Siva, Mario FAMU, Chris Graham,
01:59
Tom Hearn and Val Martha little
01:59
this show exclusively aired in
02:04
TV New Zealand In New Zealand
02:04
and most recently released in
02:08
paramount in Australia in August
02:08
of 2021. In New Zealand, and in
02:13
way of cast we have Demetrius
02:13
Chu stuck alone, Matangi,
02:16
Leilani, CLC, as well as Roy,
02:16
Billy, who, who, wow, wow, wow,
02:24
friends and lovers, for those
02:24
that have no periphery, or don't
02:30
know what we are going to talk
02:30
about today. I would encourage
02:33
you to stay I feel like it's
02:33
going to be a learning moment
02:36
and perhaps a healing moment.
02:36
For some of us, although it is
02:41
also time to say spoiler,
02:41
spoiler, spoiler, marching all
02:46
around the world essentially. So
02:46
I am aware, especially within my
02:52
own self, and I, I am I am
02:52
Tongan, and I do have family
02:57
that are still and we're in New
02:57
Zealand at the time. And even I
03:03
don't have a lot of context and
03:03
periphery. So I did do some
03:07
research. I'm going to put all
03:07
of the links in the show notes.
03:11
So let's get into first
03:11
impressions of the show as we
03:15
came on the journey, which
03:15
wasn't a lot of context. I'll
03:18
give some history and then we
03:18
can talk straight about the
03:21
show. What did you feel about
03:21
the Panthers OT?
03:24  Oti
I didn't know first of all,
03:24
those black panthers chapter in
03:28
New Zealand. That was neat to
03:28
me. It was interesting, just
03:32
seeing how everything that the
03:32
war fighting against because I
03:37
didn't know much about New
03:37
Zealand and what you're going
03:40
through. I've heard you
03:40
mentioned dawn raids a couple of
03:43
times.
03:44  KT
But even that's quite recent
03:44
to me. Yeah.
03:47  Oti
So it was all new. I didn't
03:47
know what to expect from the
03:51
show. It was interesting seeing
03:51
the sort of trepidation or
03:55
trouble don't facing and what
03:55
you're fighting for, especially
03:57
in well, being the protagonist,
03:57
I think I didn't really connect
04:00
with him that much, or I felt
04:00
like he wasn't as as effective
04:05
as I wanted him to be. Or as a
04:05
leader. When you think about a
04:09
leader or someone who starts a
04:09
revolution, you come associated
04:14
with sort of type of
04:14
characteristics and behaviors.
04:18
And we'll sort of robbed went
04:18
against the grain for most part
04:23
of it.
04:24  KT
Were you looking for
04:24
revolutionary?
04:27  Oti
I was and it was just it
04:27
was it was interesting. For lack
04:32
of a better word. By the end of
04:32
it. I think I had some qualms in
04:38
terms of the resolution and the
04:38
portrayal of what will must have
04:42
played in it because I felt like
04:42
he he copped out a couple of
04:46
times. And yeah, it was just
04:46
wild. I think, going into this
04:52
journey. I know we all humans,
04:52
you know, perfect and all that
04:55
you have to put that lens on
04:55
when you're talking about this,
04:57
especially when you're you know
04:57
it's when it's movable. A
05:00
graphical sort of show. So, to
05:00
that degree, I think it was
05:05
interesting to see, I think I
05:05
learned something new about it.
05:08  KT
Oh, absolutely. And I think
05:08
we're at a very exciting time
05:12
where, globally, we are seeing
05:12
Indigenous stories, not only
05:17
having, you know, an audience
05:17
that has an appetite for it,
05:21
well, we're getting indigenous
05:21
creatives that are creating
05:24
these stories and nurturing
05:24
these sorts of narratives. And,
05:27
you know, we see that we've read
05:27
the footfalls, we see that with
05:31
reservation dogs, you know, in
05:31
regards to Native Americans,
05:35
and, you know, we've we've
05:35
covered head high as well on the
05:38
podcast. So obviously, we've
05:38
covered boys as well as hunt for
05:41
the world of people. Total
05:41
Control, we literally just
05:45
covered mystery road, there is
05:45
there's such a richness of
05:48
Indigenous storytelling. And,
05:48
you know, like ot said, and read
05:53
for now, keep your dollies and
05:53
let people write their fuckin
05:56
stories. And this is absolutely
05:56
where we're coming to. But
06:00
unfortunately, we are also in
06:00
the Venn diagram of growing
06:04
quality of cinema. And that also
06:04
includes TV shows. And I guess
06:09
the reason why I mentioned that
06:09
is because, you know, it's it's
06:13
not, it's not it's not the fault
06:13
of the show, however, we are
06:20
consuming and a tapestry, where
06:20
there are decades and decades
06:25
of, in particular, black
06:25
American filmmaking, right. So
06:30
we've been satiated with you
06:30
know, stories of very specific
06:34
pain. But at the same time, we
06:34
don't know what Maori and
06:39
Pacific Islander pain looks
06:39
like, right? So we're in a world
06:43
where we expect a lot of quality
06:43
in regards to production. But
06:47
we're also in a world where even
06:47
myself, I don't have a lot of
06:51
periphery sort of context for
06:51
what's happening. So, you know,
06:54
we also mentioned this in the
06:54
Judas in the black Messiah
06:57
episode, we didn't really know
06:57
much about Fred Hampton. That's
07:01
not necessarily shame on the
07:01
film. That's more on us to go
07:05
into research. But at the same
07:05
time, we were still familiar
07:09
with the narrative. And with the
07:09
context in which, you know, Fred
07:13
Hampton was situated. Yeah,
07:13
right. Yeah. And shout out to
07:18
our pal, Tim, from the providers
07:18
project, I'll put it in the show
07:21
notes. But he had an interview
07:21
with no alpha now, the creator
07:27
of the show, and they talk about
07:27
a lot of detail in regards to
07:31
the TV show. And I do just want
07:31
to note a couple of here,
07:34
because this is really
07:34
interesting, because again, it
07:37
is perhaps shame on us that we
07:37
don't know, but also even trying
07:41
to research in regards to the
07:41
Black Panthers, as well as the
07:44
dawn raids, there isn't really a
07:44
lot that is available. And you
07:48
kind of have to go digging in
07:48
specific New Zealand news sites
07:51
as well. But one of the
07:51
interesting sort of tidbits I
07:54
came out of that interview was
07:54
when they cut Mel dunes speech
08:00
in the town hall, that didn't
08:00
actually happen. Oh, really,
08:04
what actually happened and what
08:04
it was inspired from to me was
08:07
actually more interesting. It
08:07
was actually cutting the mics
08:11
for the queen during her speech
08:11
at Waitangi. Vote, I've
08:14  Oti
been way better.
08:16  KT
So I guess the context there
08:16
is talking about sovereignty of
08:19
the Maori people. And they cut
08:19
the mic so the Queen wouldn't be
08:23
able to speak. So. I think it
08:23
was explained in the interview
08:27
with on Tim's podcast, that
08:27
would have added an extra layer
08:32
of complexity. But I would say
08:32
we can fucking handle it like
08:36
that is so delicious. To me.
08:36
That is so much more interesting
08:40
to me. Flexity. Do you mean
08:40
controversy? No, because so we
08:44
have the New Zealand government
08:44
that is predominantly white,
08:48
that is setting laws for
08:48
indigenous Maori people, as well
08:53
as Pacific Islander migrants. So
08:53
that's one element. And that's a
08:57
big element that we focus on in
08:57
the Panthers. But there's also
09:00
the element of colonization. So
09:00
I just thought we could have
09:05
been afforded a bit more
09:05
dimension in the show. Yeah, see
09:09
that? And also another tidbit
09:09
from that particular interview.
09:14
There were events that
09:14
apparently was so wild, that no
09:18
I didn't want to add it into the
09:18
show. I'm just going to say what
09:22
it was. So apparently, the
09:22
Panthers blew off the doors with
09:26
dynamite at the central police
09:26
station. Oh, and that was in
09:29
response to locking up Island as
09:29
for no reason. I thought that
09:34
would have been pretty radical
09:34
and revolutionary.
09:37  Oti
So when he says that it
09:37
would have been too much for
09:41
that. What was his thinking? He
09:41
said,
09:43  KT
essentially, it's a
09:43
terrorist act, which call but
09:46
we're also finding the power. So
09:46
make sense?
09:50  Oti
Yeah. It really isn't a
09:50
terrorist act, though. So
09:54  KT
yeah, but at the same time,
09:54
we were saying that people
09:57
should own up to the
09:57
consequences for their reactions
10:00
in total control. Right? Whoa,
10:00
yeah, go and listen to that
10:03
episode. We don't necessarily
10:03
condone Daxing. But there are
10:07
circumstances where we will look
10:07
the other way.
10:12  Oti
When when you when you
10:12
fighting oppression, especially
10:15
during those times, I think you
10:15
had to do everything within your
10:18
power to get noticed to to show
10:18
that whatever sort of dissent
10:25
that you cause is because of the
10:25
injustice is being faced and if
10:30
blowing up a bloody door is
10:30
terrorism now then we're pretty
10:35
much just rewriting bloody
10:35
history than any of the colonial
10:39
warriors are offering a guest
10:39
the impression would pretty much
10:42
be dubbed terrorists, because
10:42
they're going against the
10:45
supposed power all the time. I
10:45
think that's a misstep. I
10:49
wouldn't even classify it as a
10:49
Terrorism Act, because what else
10:52
are you supposed to do when
10:52
you're being pushed against the
10:55
wall?
10:55  KT
I absolutely agree with you.
10:55
And I think also at the same
10:59
time, I wouldn't say necessarily
10:59
that it sanitized it, but I
11:03
think it would have filled a lot
11:03
of gaps in in regards to how we
11:06
felt about this show. Because
11:06
again, we didn't have any sort
11:10
of context of where this was
11:10
coming from. And I think a lot
11:14
of the time, it didn't feel as
11:14
though the uprising matched the
11:19
level of brutality. And I'm not
11:19
saying take us through Lupita
11:24
suffering and 12 years of slave.
11:24
But I'm also saying we needed to
11:28
understand what was happening.
11:28
And because this is one of the
11:32
first at least in our household
11:32
of trying to understand these
11:36
events, we kind of needed a
11:36
history educational sort of
11:40
moment as well.
11:40  Oti
Yeah, this is where you
11:40
have to go outside of the source
11:44
material by source material
11:44
being being the show to find out
11:48
exactly what was going on.
11:48
Because I felt like it fell
11:51
short a couple of times. Yeah,
11:51
explaining those details. I
11:54
think if if Nora did feel that
11:54
he had to sanitize it a bit, I
11:58
think fine. But also I wanted
11:58
more backstory on more of what
12:04
was actually happening because I
12:04
thought I just it felt like to
12:08
move in with the motions without
12:08
it necessarily being routed to
12:12
one thing. And that's where I
12:12
was like, Oh, why is this
12:15
happening? Why is will acting
12:15
like this? Why is well, being
12:18
addict to his brother?
12:20  KT
Oh, yeah, hold on to that
12:20
tasty nugget, because I'm gonna
12:23
bite it off you it. Yeah, it
12:25  Oti
felt very left field. I was
12:25
like, Okay, give me the context.
12:30
And maybe that would have made
12:30
the show longer.
12:33  KT
Just classic worldbuilding
12:33
Yeah, just classic worldbuilding
12:37  Oti
make me care about will
12:37
make me into stand will rather
12:41
than me feeling like well, is
12:41
just some spoiled kid who
12:45
doesn't know the world?
12:46  KT
Yeah, absolutely. And, you
12:46
know, I've got a whole list of
12:50
themes that I want us to talk
12:50
through. So I am going to cover
12:53
one thing specifically. And then
12:53
I'm going to give just a bit of
12:57
context in regards to history,
12:57
but personally, for myself, I'm
13:02
an Australian born Tongan, but
13:02
my dad, as well as his family,
13:06
were living in New Zealand from
13:06
the 1950s to the 1970s. And then
13:13
they moved and migrated to
13:13
Australia. It was only until
13:18
recently we as a as a sibling
13:18
sort of unit had any sort of
13:24
understanding about dawn raids,
13:24
aside from like, the record
13:27
label, in New Zealand Savage, as
13:27
you know. So I think, because
13:35
what happens is, you know, your
13:35
understanding of who you are,
13:41
and your people doesn't happen
13:41
in afternoon special sort of
13:47
lessons, right? It doesn't
13:47
happen in a neat little box,
13:50
especially if the history of
13:50
your family and the experiences
13:55
and the possible trauma of your
13:55
family isn't being shared with
13:59
you. You're just seeing the
13:59
byproducts of alcoholism every
14:02
weekend, right? Yeah. So I guess
14:02
what I was coming to, like, sort
14:07
of a loggerheads with is, I
14:07
guess, in some ways, if we were
14:13
to look back on my childhood,
14:13
there were sort of Inklings
14:16
about it. But a lot of, you
14:16
know, a lot of experiences in
14:21
New Zealand with my family. It
14:21
was always played as something
14:25
like write it mostly in the
14:25
sense that, you know, like,
14:30
there were T shirts that would
14:30
be made and Bebo was like a
14:33
social media site that was very
14:33
popular with Islanders, you
14:38
know, of like, overstay our, and
14:38
I would always say, like the
14:41
Tongan flag and the Samoan flag,
14:41
like it was worn as a as a badge
14:45
of pride and a badge of honor to
14:45
be an overstay, err. And, you
14:51
know, even my mom would make
14:51
jokes and you know, all of all
14:54
of the mums and aunties just
14:54
gossiping as they do, it would
14:58
be a ha ha moment. and that they
14:58
would call the government and
15:01
DOD people in for being
15:01
overstays. It wasn't a traumatic
15:06
sort of moment that people were
15:06
being torn from potential sort
15:09
of livelihoods, or a chance at a
15:09
better life. It was like, she
15:13
looked at me funny in church,
15:13
and I called the government on
15:17
her wild. So imagine, imagine my
15:17
surprise, when I come to realize
15:23
that the dawn raids wasn't
15:23
necessarily a happy thing. And
15:26
there were people, maybe not my
15:26
people, but people that look
15:29
like me, that got treated much
15:29
more differently, and definitely
15:33
much less than a human in many
15:33
sorts of regards. So I have
15:38
friends and lovers, I'm on my
15:38
own journey, where I'm trying to
15:42
understand and I'm trying to
15:42
heal from something that I guess
15:46
you know, is barely even talked
15:46
about, or even acknowledged
15:50
within my family. And I, I
15:50
extend all of the grace and all
15:54
of the love and Paul Bettany
15:54
splashes in your direction, and
15:59
we will get through it together
15:59
Friends and Lovers. Let's get
16:02
into a little bit of the history
16:02
just so we can get some of the
16:05
context and the reason why I
16:05
want to share this is because we
16:11
love the listenership and the
16:11
friends and lovers that we've
16:14
met along the way, but I am
16:14
conscious of the fact that a lot
16:18
of our listenership is in
16:18
America. Speaking of America,
16:23
shout out to country boy that
16:23
runs one mic Black History
16:27
podcast, I did also get a lot of
16:27
information. He's got a three
16:30
part series in regards to Huey
16:30
Newton, as well as a Black
16:34
Panther Party and we'll come to
16:34
that also ot country boy called
16:38
at one mic because of his love
16:38
for NARS.
16:43  Oti
Play,
16:44  KT
there's your belly
16:44
reference. And we'll come to
16:47
belly when we talk about
16:47
cinematography. later on. So
16:52
we're talking about New Zealand,
16:52
we're talking about the lovely
16:55
place where everyone wants to go
16:55
Jacinda Ardern. And we're
17:00
starting to realize that maybe
17:00
women should be leaders around
17:03
the world, but that's a story
17:03
for another day. You know, but
17:07
in in instances where we cover
17:07
boy and hunt for the world of
17:11
people, we did talk about very
17:11
specific issues that surround
17:16
New Zealand as well as head high
17:16
homelessness in regards to Maori
17:21
and Pacific is on the rise as
17:21
well as suicide rates in New
17:25
Zealand and also like child
17:25
poverty as well. So that gets
17:30
covered a lot. So you know, the
17:30
as beautiful and as lush and as
17:36
choice as a place as New Zealand
17:36
is, like every country it is not
17:40
immune to any sort of issues. So
17:40
just to give you some background
17:44
in regards to New Zealand's
17:44
history, Shasta Tom from history
17:48
of Altero, I beat you to it, I'm
17:48
pretty sure you're still in the
17:51
1800s for New Zealand history.
17:51
So in the 1950s in the 1960s,
17:58
New Zealand experienced a major
17:58
industrial and urban expansion.
18:03
It did have a labor market from
18:03
the Netherlands in the UK, but
18:06
it started to dry up. So there
18:06
was a strategy to find two new
18:11
sources, rural Maori to migrate
18:11
to more metropolitan areas, as
18:16
well as the Pacific Islands. So
18:16
Pacifica saw this as an
18:20
opportunity for jobs, education,
18:20
a brighter future, you know,
18:25
knew they needed people in
18:25
factories specifically in
18:28
Auckland. People from the Cook
18:28
Islands new way Tokelau entered
18:33
as New Zealand citizens, whereas
18:33
someone's and Tongans required
18:38
approval, and I think that also
18:38
covers the Bieber banner that I
18:43
was talking about with the
18:43
Tongan and Simone flag about
18:46
being overstays. So essentially,
18:46
it was a very loose sort of
18:52
boundary because they needed the
18:52
numbers they allowed, you know
18:56
Pacific sort of workers to come
18:56
into New Zealand and it was all
19:00
quite lacks, however, on fucking
19:00
fortunately, white supremacy and
19:06
colonialism rears its ugly head.
19:06
In a nutshell, the white people
19:11
needed to blame someone in some
19:11
people's and they blamed Pacific
19:15
Islanders in 1971, the
19:15
Polynesian Panther Party was
19:19
formed in regards to the market
19:19
it wasn't doing as well. So
19:23
Kiwis everyday, sort of Kiwis
19:23
were losing their jobs. And
19:26
again, they were blaming
19:26
Pacifica, there was a lot of
19:30
pressure to try and do something
19:30
to try and quell the powers. The
19:35
brown powers that be, you know,
19:35
the animated political cartoon
19:42
that they had in the Panthers
19:42
the TV show, apparently that's
19:45
real, because I saw it in the
19:45
documentary, Novak wills nice,
19:49
who is a journalist, she did a
19:49
documentary and will also be in
19:52
our show notes as well. But that
19:52
was the actual campaign I had,
19:56
with the angry brown person
19:56
kicking the white people's
19:59
butts. If so that was used as a
19:59
political sort of ploy. And we
20:04
talked about this in total
20:04
control. And we're talking about
20:07
First Nations, you know,
20:07
Australians in the fact that we
20:12
don't even know if you know,
20:12
these politicians are racist,
20:16
but they're definitely using it
20:16
to their political advantage.
20:20
There was also solidarity in the
20:20
sovereignty with the Maori
20:24
people. And we see that in 1975,
20:24
as well as 1978, claiming
20:30
essentially ownership of the
20:30
land which they should have
20:32
already stopping development and
20:32
that sort of thing. And there's
20:36
also the Springbok tour, which
20:36
doesn't get covered in the TV
20:40
show. But essentially,
20:40
everybody's heard of apartheid,
20:43
from 1990 to 1994. In South
20:43
Africa, apartheid, South Africa
20:49
were invited to come and play
20:49
rugby in New Zealand, while
20:54
apartheid was still alive and
20:54
well.
20:58
So the Polynesian Panther Party
20:58
protested in regards to that.
21:03
And then many years later, in
21:03
1995, Nelson Mandela actually
21:07
visited New Zealand, once he was
21:07
president as well. Also, Desmond
21:12
Tutu was around doing speeches
21:12
and those that were organizing
21:16
his tour had, you know,
21:16
connections with the Polynesian
21:21
panther party, and they actually
21:21
got Desmond Tutu to be a
21:25
character sort of witness for
21:25
Willa Elia. Oh, wow. Yeah. So
21:29
that's one way to keep you out
21:29
of jail. And I guess in a
21:32
nutshell, because when we again,
21:32
when we were watching the TV
21:36
show, we were kind of just
21:36
following not to the level of
21:40
like Tarantino, a life in the
21:40
day. But I feel like we were
21:44
just following the characters
21:44
without any sort of overarching
21:48
narrative that we were working
21:48
towards. So I just want to
21:51
remind, I guess, the both of us,
21:51
as well as frame the
21:54
conversation that we're going to
21:54
have moving forward in regards
21:58
to the achievements of the
21:58
Polynesian panther party, they
22:02
were much like the Black Panther
22:02
Party, they did model a lot of
22:07
the programs that were set up so
22:07
they had homework centers, where
22:10
they will do tutoring, free meal
22:10
programs and food banks, prison
22:15
visits, as well as provide
22:15
halfway house accommodation
22:18
forming Legal Aid book that
22:18
would help Pacifica people to be
22:24
able to assert their voices in
22:24
regards to eviction
22:27
incarceration, on equal pay and
22:27
unlivable and working
22:32
conditions, sovereignty or Maori
22:32
people, which we talked about in
22:35
1975, as well as 1976, the
22:35
Bastion Point opposition. In
22:40
regards to activism, there were
22:40
the dawn raids. So again, I
22:44
guess, just giving context for
22:44
those that aren't familiar with
22:46
the dawn raids, because there
22:46
was pressure from the government
22:50
to do something about those
22:50
pesky Pacifica that were
22:54
occupying in New Zealand, the
22:54
government and the police
22:58
organized raids at dawn and to
22:58
demand documentation to make
23:03
sure that whoever was living in
23:03
that house had the legal
23:07
documentation to be able to live
23:07
there. Even though as we pointed
23:11
out earlier, they were pretty
23:11
lacs about it. There was also
23:15
pig patrol, which I believe
23:15
stood for police investigation
23:19
group. And we also see that in
23:19
the TV show as well, where they
23:24
patrol the police just to make
23:24
sure the police are conducting
23:26
themselves to the integrity that
23:26
they believe that they are as
23:30
well as the 1981. Springbok
23:30
tour. Yeah, so that essentially
23:36
takes us to today. The only
23:36
other thing I wanted to mention
23:39
in regards to history is Huey
23:39
Newton. Again, go and check out
23:44
one Mike Black History podcast.
23:44
The Black Panther Party was
23:49
founded in 1966. And that's
23:49
pretty impressive, considering
23:54
how analog the 60s was and how
23:54
widespread I guess this would
23:58
have influenced that Huey and
23:58
the Black Panther Party had
24:01
right. Yeah, major kudos, they
24:01
formed the 10 point program. And
24:05
this drew heavily from Malcolm
24:05
X's nationalism as without the
24:10
Islamic aspect. And I just want
24:10
to read it because although my
24:15
Wikipedia glasses didn't tell me
24:15
that it was this specifically,
24:20
it does mention that the
24:20
Polynesian Panther Party were
24:23
inspired a lot by Huey Newton's
24:23
ideology. So I do just want to
24:27
read this 10 Point program.
24:27
Specifically in regard to Black
24:30
Panther Party. We want freedom
24:30
we want power to determine the
24:34
destiny of our black community.
24:34
We want full employment for our
24:37
people. We want an end to the
24:37
robbery by the capitalists of
24:41
our black community. We want
24:41
decent housing fitful shelter of
24:45
human beings. We want education
24:45
for our people that exposes the
24:49
true nature of this decadent
24:49
society. Paul Huey with the
24:53
critical race theory, we want
24:53
education that teaches us our
24:57
true history and our role in
24:57
present day society. We want all
25:00
black men to be exempt from
25:00
military service. We want an
25:04
immediate end to police
25:04
brutality and murder of black
25:07
people. We want freedom for all
25:07
black men held in federal,
25:10
state, county and city prisons
25:10
and jails. We want all black
25:14
people when brought to trial to
25:14
be tried in a court by a jury of
25:18
their peer group, or people from
25:18
their black communities as
25:21
defined by the Constitution of
25:21
the United States. We want land
25:24
bread, housing, education,
25:24
clothing, justice and peace.
25:28
That's a good list. Yeah, right.
25:28
Something that has become
25:32
increasingly aware to me
25:32
researching and you know, even
25:37
going back to when we're
25:37
watching Judas and the black
25:39
Messiah, there is so much power
25:39
in the connected effort to tear
25:44
down imperialism. I don't know
25:44
if that's a radical statement.
25:49
But you know, we see with the
25:49
rainbow coalition with Fred
25:52
Hampton, and we also see it, you
25:52
know, in general, because even
25:57
with Huey Newton had a Cuban
25:57
rally where he met co founder
26:00
Bobby Seale. And you know, there
26:00
were further protests about
26:04
Vietnam, specifically black men
26:04
that went out to serve in
26:08
Vietnam, where they weren't even
26:08
recognized with basic human
26:11
rights in America. It's a
26:11
beautiful thing when we all come
26:15
together to find I didn't say
26:15
common enemy. I said common
26:19
love.
26:21  Oti
Ah, all right. Well,
26:23  KT
let's talk specifically
26:23
about the show. I'm going to say
26:27
some positives, just so it is
26:27
acknowledged that we do love a
26:34
lot of the aspects of this show,
26:34
I would say I really enjoyed the
26:38
cinematography. In this show. I
26:38
really appreciated the directing
26:42
in this show. And I really love
26:42
the music slash score.
26:46  Oti
Yeah, me too. I think in as
26:46
much as I had issues and part of
26:51
the, of the storytelling, I
26:51
think, as a whole. And I think
26:56
at the end of it, I was left
26:56
content, and it made me want to
27:01
know more about the subject
27:01
matter. So even if their goal
27:05
was more, because you have to
27:05
you have a line with this sort
27:08
of shows where it's part
27:08
entertainment and parts in
27:11
forming. I was, in as much as I
27:11
had qualms with will and how it
27:16
was told, at the end of it, I
27:16
was left too young for more. And
27:20
that's a positive in my book.
27:21  KT
Well, my yearning for more
27:21
was in regards to the writing, I
27:24
was just giving compliments
27:24
before talking about the
27:26
writing. But I think just going
27:26
back on the music in this, I
27:34
really enjoyed it. And the
27:34
lyrics really helped to I guess
27:38
outlay, the scenes that were
27:38
about to happen, or the scenes
27:42
that we're currently happening.
27:42
And I remember watching the
27:45
opening scene of this, this
27:45
series, and I got really
27:48
emotional because I could see my
27:48
faces and this, the struggle
27:52
that was being spoken of was
27:52
very specific to my people,
27:56
right. It wasn't trying to
27:56
imitate you know, hip hop in
28:01
America, for example. It was
28:01
very specific to contemporary to
28:06
the time as well and I really
28:06
enjoyed the music. But I do feel
28:10
like the writing fell short
28:10
because you have the strength of
28:14
you know, the the lyricism in
28:14
the wraps, and then you know, in
28:20
regards to the writing it, I
28:20
guess I might as well just say
28:23
it now, there was a lot that was
28:23
being focused on that either
28:27
necessarily careful. You know,
28:27
do what you want to do, but I
28:32
didn't necessarily care about
28:32
the love story between will and
28:36
Tessa. Tessa was a real person.
28:36
I wasn't noted in the
28:41
documentary whether her and well
28:41
had a little thing, but they
28:45
were talking about a very young,
28:45
potentially 19 year old but a
28:49
very young woman with a baby
28:49
that was barely two. And
28:53
apparently she got scooped up by
28:53
the police in her lover lover.
28:57
So kind of, I guess, for the non
28:57
Islanders, like a sarong, no
29:01
underwear underneath or
29:01
anything. And the baby just had
29:04
a shirt and a nappy. And they
29:04
kept her locked up overnight.
29:07
And they flew back to somewhere
29:07
they deported the on the first
29:12
possible flight the next
29:12
morning. Brutal. Yeah. So in
29:16
regards to the love story, I
29:16
didn't necessarily care for it.
29:19
I also didn't care about the
29:19
white people. Not not not not in
29:24
that way, but just in the sense
29:24
that again, in the growing sort
29:28
of tapestry, and the solid
29:28
penmanship that we see around
29:32
the world far be it from me Can
29:32
I have my racist why people have
29:36
some fucking dimension? Is that
29:36
okay? Cuz I guess the thing is
29:41
because David lanch he was a
29:41
lawyer that actually helped
29:45
create that legal aid book. I
29:45
feel like we only saw him like
29:48
for maybe one scene near the end
29:48
of the show. Yeah, yeah. Here's
29:52
the fucking white person you
29:52
should be highlighting not in a
29:55
Viggo Mortensen Green Book sword
29:55
away in a white savior sort of
29:59
way but he He was very helpful
29:59
to the cause. And it would have
30:03
been nice to focus on him a bit
30:03
more. And you know, Mel Dune was
30:08
very much a character chore. And
30:08
I think that's part of the
30:11
problem with it. Because in the
30:11
real world, you can have people
30:16
that are well, meaning, I joke
30:16
about it a lot, but your
30:18
grandparents might love you, but
30:18
they might also be racist to
30:21
things can be true, right? They
30:21
might be a great person to you,
30:25
maybe not your ethnic friends.
30:25
But that's part of the problem
30:29
that I have. Because when you're
30:29
in the real world, there's so
30:31
much complexity. And there's so
30:31
much nuance whether he was a
30:35
caricature or whether he was the
30:35
best person in the world, the
30:39
system exists for him to thrive,
30:39
and decide whether he wants to
30:44
help other people that don't
30:44
benefit from the system. That's
30:47
the point. Right? Yeah. So I
30:47
guess from a writing point of
30:50
view, I guess that's something
30:50
that I didn't necessarily care
30:53
for. In regards to the directing
30:53
and the cinematography. I
30:57
thought it was pretty cute.
30:57
Yeah,
30:59  Oti
me too. I thought my
30:59
doodles started off as a good
31:03
guy in this because he seemed as
31:03
if he was helping will or he
31:07
spoke as if he is eager to help.
31:07
Well, yeah, in fact, the first
31:11
interaction they have was, well,
31:11
I thought it was quite nice. You
31:15
know, he gave me a compliment,
31:15
you know, and I thought,
31:18  KT
when they like underhand the
31:18
compliment thing, I didn't
31:21
expect to be civilized, those
31:21
sorts of compliments.
31:24  Oti
I don't think at that time,
31:24
I took it the whole way. I felt
31:27
like this probably impressed.
31:27
Not Oh, because your brown
31:31
fellow now, you know, I'm taking
31:31
law view, you can't do anything
31:35
like that. I felt like it was
31:35
generally like, Oh, this is an
31:39
intelligent person, like anyone,
31:39
despite race, creed, or anything
31:43
of that nonsense. But it turned
31:43
out I was wrong.
31:47  KT
Oh, maybe, you know, maybe
31:47
like you're saying in total
31:50
control. Like maybe he was just
31:50
a savvy politician, and he's not
31:53
going to cloak and dagger you
31:53
until he knows whether you can
31:57
bring value or not.
31:58  Oti
And that's probably the
31:58
most apt thing, because at that
32:01
point, I will still being super
32:01
frustrated with will and this is
32:05
why we still go to the writing,
32:05
beloved, you know, we like your
32:08
painting well as his character.
32:08
And we know he's bloody flawed
32:12
and all he at the start, you
32:12
know, wonder with the bodies,
32:16
and he was like pushing people
32:16
to go and do something. Yeah,
32:20
even a friend one of his friends
32:20
was deported faster than and I
32:25
was like, okay,
32:26  KT
he didn't check his own
32:26
privilege. Yes, I remember now.
32:29  Oti
And he was because he was
32:29
frustrating. He knew he has or
32:33
fucking Get Out of Jail Free
32:33
card.
32:35  KT
Yeah, he did. He didn't say
32:35
it that way. Because he's like,
32:38
I'm brown too. Yeah.
32:41  Oti
You being Brown does not
32:41
fucking matter to the other
32:44
people who don't have any
32:44
connections who don't have
32:47
bloody parents who are princes
32:47
and have no
32:50  KT
Yeah, and I guess just for
32:50
context, friends and lovers.
32:53
Longer is one of the only
32:53
countries I believe in the
32:56
Pacific that still has a alive
32:56
and well monarchy, and not not
33:04
Prince level. But Will's mom
33:04
came from a noble family and,
33:09
you know, descended from a noble
33:09
family. And the dad at the time
33:13
of the TV show, and in real life
33:13
was working for the British High
33:16
Commission.
33:16  Oti
So his dad pulled off a
33:16
wall, and he was out of jail and
33:20
his friends was still there.
33:20
Yeah, but he's but he got
33:22
deported. And he didn't want to
33:22
go because he was gonna get his
33:25
papers anyway. Yeah. And that is
33:25
just I think that's when I was
33:29
like, Okay, this Faka needs to
33:29
check his privilege needs to
33:33
understand is not the same as
33:33
this other people
33:35  KT
stop sniffing around policy
33:35
that isn't yours. Exactly. Not
33:38
that policy belongs to anyone
33:38
aside from the policy and I kept
33:41
on
33:41  Oti
pushing the envelope out on
33:41
pushing and pushing to the point
33:44
where it didn't feel as if he
33:44
was trying to push for good. It
33:47
was egotistical. Exactly, yeah,
33:47
that's why I was like, What is
33:51
this, which is
33:52  KT
weird, because that didn't
33:52
get challenged. It kind of did a
33:56
little bit later. But I think
33:56
maybe like Demetrius kind of
34:00
reminds me of Ollie in Legend of
34:00
Baron Dada, like, because he
34:05
only kept having his shirt off
34:05
in that movie. And I think
34:09
they're trying to like give the
34:09
same sort of vibe to Demetrius.
34:12
Personally, I will watch it
34:12
because I will watch it. You
34:16
don't need to bring me in with
34:16
that. But perhaps it's a way to
34:19
get other audiences and I'm not
34:19
sure.
34:22  Oti
Yeah, whatever rocks, the
34:22
boats May I think, to me, we
34:25
focus so much on well as the
34:25
protagonist, and I thought that
34:29
other people within the chapter
34:29
did more.
34:32  KT
Thank you. That was also
34:32
something I was gonna say from a
34:34
writing point of view, if all of
34:34
the time was expended on will
34:38
and he's the most frustrating
34:38
character. What does that say to
34:42
the building of secondary
34:42
characters?
34:44  Oti
Because a lot of the people
34:44
did most of the work. Oh,
34:48
absolutely. And we barely got to
34:48
see them do it. Yeah. Because
34:52
either we're focusing on Well
34:52
being a brick will throwing
34:57
tantrums using his prick will
34:57
All running away then doing
35:02
silly shit. Like, I didn't
35:02
understand the insistence on
35:07
toeing that line if the end of
35:07
it you're calling the show the
35:11
Panthers
35:11  KT
Yeah. And some big IP to it.
35:11
It
35:15  Oti
should be more than just,
35:15
you know. Yeah. Like we were
35:19
talking about Judas and the
35:19
black Messiah, you know, Fred
35:24
Hampton, Alka lujah you know,
35:24
he's not even the main
35:27
character. Yeah, but in his
35:27
scenes he stills the show. Yeah,
35:32
absolutely. With will he's the
35:32
protagonist and our could not
35:36
wait two away from him so we can
35:36
see actual story progress.
35:40  KT
We're hoping there was a
35:40
Judas in this. Yeah. Arguably
35:45
could be ice
35:46  Oti
probes.
35:51  KT
It's interesting. You say
35:51
rock the boat because the theme
35:54
I have here is called Don't rock
35:54
the boat baby. The waves of
35:58
culture and religion and I have
35:58
two points here. Will and his
36:03
brother Mo and then also Milani,
36:03
and her family. So let's talk
36:07
about we'll add mo because this
36:07
was one of the most explosive
36:14
episode watching experiences
36:14
I've ever had in my life, as a
36:19
Tongan that always felt like I
36:19
was on the outside because I
36:22
didn't fit within what a brown
36:22
woman should be in the Tongan
36:26
culture. I found my community in
36:26
this. Also all of the episodes,
36:33
the numbering of different
36:33
languages, and this episode was
36:36
called dalo, which is three and
36:36
I thought that was interesting
36:39
because it focuses very much on
36:39
the Tongan aspect, in this
36:42
episode, but what I want to talk
36:42
about specifically, is will had
36:46
his moment of potential growth.
36:46
But he didn't he doubled down in
36:51
his stubbornness, and his
36:51
egotistical narcissism, because
36:55
we meet Mo, his brother who
36:55
served in the war, right. And
37:00
we've spoken a lot friends and
37:00
lovers in regards to globally
37:04
around the world, how we need to
37:04
treat war vets better and also,
37:08
we're never going to criminal
37:08
criminalize soldiers that fight
37:12
particular wars, because it's a
37:12
bigger conversation than that.
37:16
It kind of reminded me of both
37:16
versions of the one D is the the
37:20
OG one, two years and the
37:20
current one with the Internet.
37:24
Don Cheadle narrating but it
37:24
brings so much complexity, it
37:30
brings so much layers into the
37:30
show. And there is there is more
37:34
that I want to talk about in
37:34
regards to culture, but let's
37:37
just stick with Will and his
37:37
brother Mo. What did you think
37:40
about it? I think we all we
37:40
already know how we feel about
37:43
Well, I feel like we were both
37:43
siding with Moe. But how did you
37:47
feel about that? And I guess
37:47
it's also they were calling each
37:50
other out bro in the middle of a
37:50
tongue in function and you don't
37:53
fucking do that.
37:54  Oti
I thought he raised good
37:54
points. Well, that is, of course
38:00
is nothing the Vietnamese people
38:00
did to the Maori people, you
38:03
know, you had no they didn't
38:03
invade you they didn't do
38:07
anything to you simply follow
38:07
your orders and you go and
38:11
that's the nature of the fucking
38:11
beast
38:13  KT
didn't do anything to the
38:13
five bloods either. But Delroy
38:16
lindo has a Coral Coral
38:19  Oti
heal he lost people there
38:19
and that's you know, at the end
38:22
of the day, that's the nature of
38:22
war. But by he don't come and
38:28
put that on your brother I think
38:28
at the end of the day when and
38:32
this is why we need to do to our
38:32
vets better it changes people
38:36
what they experienced that it's
38:36
fucking traumatic. And when he
38:40
came back and for him to be told
38:40
up by some uni brought who's not
38:45
experienced fucking real life
38:45
and he's still thinking he
38:48
doesn't have privilege and
38:48
taking all his buddy bloody
38:51
friends out to do some risky
38:51
shit. Without risk or without
38:55
consequences. Yeah, you know,
38:55
it's, it felt very pointy. It
39:00
felt very naive.
39:01  KT
It felt very Samuel Jackson
39:01
and Django.
39:04  Oti
I don't think anything
39:04
would feel like that.
39:09  KT
But I get what you're
39:09
saying. Because what he was
39:12
saying, yeah, he's got a point
39:12
but do you have to be the one
39:16
with your mouth saying it can be
39:16
someone else?
39:19  Oti
It's not a conversation. He
39:19
has the right to even utter with
39:23
plain and simple Where do you
39:23
get off? Yeah, where did he
39:26
fucking get off?
39:27  KT
Because like, if if mo would
39:27
unfortunately die in battle
39:32
would we'll still be beating
39:32
that drum? He wouldn't. And
39:35
that's the fucking sad travesty
39:35
in the state of affairs that
39:39
we're addressing and it was
39:39
really frustrating but I guess
39:44
to just take it back on a
39:44
cultural sort of lens. i It's
39:48
funny because I didn't I didn't
39:48
really care for Will and I got a
39:52
bit. I felt away when I started
39:52
to, you know, resonate with him,
39:57
but I did feel when he was to
39:57
function And the way he was
40:01
being told how to talk how to
40:01
act, you know that that
40:06
definitely triggered me in in a
40:06
baby sort of level. Because a
40:11
lot of it and I want to talk
40:11
about Milani before we go into
40:15
detail about this, but a lot of
40:15
this again, it is a neat and it
40:20
isn't tidy trauma, because we, I
40:20
guess, if you want to just in a
40:26
nutshell, talk about history,
40:26
you know, it's something that
40:29
makes me sick to my stomach,
40:29
even to this day, is that
40:33
sometimes us and I will speak, I
40:33
will say us to be inclusive. But
40:38
you know, there are Tongan
40:38
people that have pride that
40:41
Captain Cook labeled us the
40:41
friendly islands. And that
40:44
always sat unwell with me that
40:44
we had a apparently a white best
40:49
friend in the history books will
40:49
tell you that we shook hands,
40:53
and we were very amicable about
40:53
it. He labeled us as you know,
40:58
the friendly islands because I
40:58
guess we didn't try to eat him.
41:01
But trust the trust and believe
41:01
if I was there, I would get my
41:04
fork out.
41:06
But it's that sort of
41:06
subservience that kind of makes
41:11
me sick to my stomach, and I
41:11
don't blame my people for it.
41:14
But it does make me sad, but if
41:14
you if you take the lens of
41:17
being colonized, if you take the
41:17
sense of being waved a meal
41:22
ticket, a better life in New
41:22
Zealand to then go there and get
41:27
treated disgustingly and you
41:27
know, we don't have time friends
41:30
and lovers, I've got time meet
41:30
me in the DMS. But we don't have
41:33
time in this podcast. But even
41:33
Pacific Islanders like
41:36
specifically, even Tongan
41:36
workers saw more in workers Fiji
41:39
and workers coming to Australia,
41:39
you know, all of this
41:43
complaining about the ticker
41:43
jobs, they took her jobs, no one
41:46
fucking one of those jobs. And
41:46
you know, there's tangible
41:49
evidence of that, because when
41:49
the pandemic hit, there weren't
41:52
any fucking workers. Where did
41:52
all the Australians go then?
41:55
They didn't leave the country.
41:55
If the Australians didn't leave
41:58
the country, and no one was
41:58
picking the fruits. What does
42:01
that fucking mean? They take a
42:01
James, they took NASS homes.
42:05
That's what they do. But that's,
42:05
that's what's frustrating. And
42:08
there's still unlivable,
42:08
unpayable working conditions for
42:14
Pacific Islanders that come for
42:14
the purposes of labor, like it's
42:18
supposed to be a shining beacon
42:18
to us. Like we're supposed to be
42:22
grateful for those job
42:22
opportunities, where we get
42:25
treated subhuman. Right? And I
42:25
guess that's the highlight that
42:28
it's still happening today. And
42:28
it's one of those things because
42:33
we're layering all of this
42:33
trauma on top of our identities
42:37
as a Pacific. And, you know, I
42:37
always, I always try to figure
42:42
out because I never really feel
42:42
like Pacific a have an identity
42:46
as a diaspora. Right? You have
42:46
family, you know, in the UK, you
42:51
have family in Canada. And I
42:51
think it's quite fair to say to
42:55
I guess, a lot of us that, you
42:55
know, Africans do have a
42:58
diaspora outside of Africa,
42:58
right. Asian people have a
43:02
diaspora outside of Asia. But I
43:02
never really felt like, you
43:06
know, Pacific people had that.
43:06
And I don't know how much of
43:11
that is attributed to the dawn
43:11
raids and is attributed to
43:15
migration to New Zealand and
43:15
forever feeling displaced. But I
43:19
will also say that a kind of
43:19
frames and kind of bring some
43:23
understanding to the lightness
43:23
and the laughing off and just
43:29
brushing it off of your
43:29
shoulders that my parents in
43:31
particular had in regards to the
43:31
situations that we've been
43:36
given. And I think it's, you
43:36
know, I think we're kind of at
43:39
the starting phases of our
43:39
healing, and not at a mishpat
43:43
point, being able to laugh at
43:43
our trauma. Like, I feel like we
43:46
haven't fully faced what we've
43:46
been through to get to where we
43:50
need to be to have some sort of
43:50
roots outside of our own
43:53
indigenous lands. Yeah, speaking
43:53
of being tethered by culture,
43:58
and I would say more succinctly,
43:58
religion, I want to talk about
44:02
Milani, because this was such an
44:02
interesting contrast. And I love
44:05
the way it was portrayed in this
44:05
TV show, because she had, you
44:10
know, a role of leadership in
44:10
the Polynesian panther party.
44:15
But as soon as she went home,
44:15
she was that dutiful son, one
44:18
daughter, that didn't question
44:18
anything and could barely even
44:22
whisper her own worth and
44:22
identity in her household and I
44:27
just wanted to know what your
44:27
thoughts were in that sort of
44:29
dichotomy.
44:30  Oti
I think it makes sense.
44:30
Similar to bloody African
44:34
culture, you know, you're
44:34
expected to behave in a certain
44:37
way at home and to be all humble
44:37
and you know, you're only there
44:42
to be bloody seen and hard, that
44:42
sort of mentality still exists.
44:47
So it's not surprising it in
44:47
surprise me one bit saying that,
44:52
you know, she could be out there
44:52
and be the best leader and be so
44:56
driven by once you get back
44:56
home. You're putting that bulks,
45:00
and you can't do anything,
45:00
because that's the culture
45:03  KT
that's had. Yeah. And I
45:03
think that also brings quite a
45:08
strong theme that we have in
45:08
this show. You know, a lot of it
45:12
is potentially the parents are
45:12
acknowledging that the
45:16
conditions aren't great,
45:16
especially in regards to a lot
45:20
of the unlivable, uninhabitable
45:20
sort of houses that they were
45:24
given. Right? Not being able to
45:24
get like running water and
45:28
stuff. But there's also a level
45:28
of it could be worse, or, you
45:33
know, so many people, I managed
45:33
to beat out so many people to
45:37
get to New Zealand, right? So I
45:37
don't want to cause a problem, I
45:41
don't want to cause a fuss. And
45:41
there was a lot of that that was
45:44
happening in the show that, you
45:44
know, friends and lovers, they
45:48
there is a way to be steeped and
45:48
to resonate in TV shows in
45:54
cinema. And I definitely felt
45:54
that in this because what what
45:58
you cling to, in regards to your
45:58
cultural sort of identity is
46:04
also what will suffocate you in
46:04
your pursuit for freedom.
46:08
Alright, I got two more themes
46:08
to go at. I have a theme called
46:12
the whites, but in the whites, I
46:12
wrote politics, police,
46:17
abortion, public image slash
46:17
radio, we've already talked
46:21
about politics. We've kind of
46:21
already talked about police. I
46:24
just want to give kudos to the
46:24
show for addressing abortion.
46:28
But I would also like to further
46:28
say that I hope we get to a
46:32
point in television and cinema
46:32
where we can address abortion
46:36
within Pacifica and Maori
46:36
communities. Yeah, well, we kind
46:39
of see that in head high. But I
46:39
would like to see that more. If
46:42
this is the TV show of radical
46:42
change, I would have liked to
46:46
have seen a bit more focus on
46:46
the individuality in the
46:49
personal choices of Pacifica
46:49
women and Maori women. I just
46:54
wanted to talk a little bit
46:54
about the public image slash
46:57
radio. Did that feel a bit
46:57
caricatural to you? Or do you
47:00
think that was pretty much
47:00
talkback radio branding?
47:03  Oti
I thought it was branding
47:03
on point 100 I
47:07  KT
think there was a part of me
47:07
where like, all of the all of
47:09
the ingredients were there. But
47:09
Melania continuing to call up
47:13
and you know, try and recite
47:13
those facts, it felt like they
47:16
needed to fit it into the show.
47:16
I don't necessarily, I didn't
47:19
necessarily care for that sort
47:19
of vessel. But you know, they
47:22
also had archival footage at the
47:22
time. And apparently that was
47:26
the mainstream, common sort of
47:26
beliefs at the time. The last
47:33
name I have has become a Fave in
47:33
the foyer reference household,
47:39
between OT and AI, and it's in
47:39
the community but not for the
47:43
people in the community. And
47:43
we're talking about ice. Can I
47:45
just say Bulow, who plays ice
47:45
brought the most depth? I would
47:49
say he was my most favorite
47:49
character in the show. Wow.
47:53
Yeah. And you know what's
47:53
interesting going back to, to
47:57
improvise. And his, his podcast
47:57
interview with Noah. He was
48:01
talking about his influences in
48:01
wanting to create the Panthers
48:06
and he sided John Singleton,
48:06
baby boy Boys in the Hood. And
48:12
also belly. I told you that
48:12
now's callback will come back
48:16  Oti
soon, poorly on special.
48:19  KT
And I don't know, I don't
48:19
know if it was specifically
48:22
honor. But it was interesting to
48:22
have the layer of ice because
48:26
we've talked about it a lot. It
48:26
is so easy. It was so easy to
48:30
like blame white people. It is
48:30
so easy to blame external sort
48:34
of people, but sometimes it's
48:34
happening within the rooster
48:37
coop. Yes. Some
48:38  Oti
people are just about
48:38
themselves, you know, and that's
48:41
just the sad reality of things
48:41
or people are too swayed or
48:44
easily swayed everything the
48:44
case with something someone like
48:48
Bill O'Neil and Judas and black
48:48
Messiah you know, he's tempted
48:52
to betray his people because he
48:52
just doesn't want to fucking
48:56
face the consequences of his
48:56
actions. Yeah, and resides here.
49:00
He's just content running his
49:00
blog. He doesn't care about the
49:04
greater good he doesn't care
49:04
about you know, he's accepted
49:08
life the way it is, and he wants
49:08
to be to take as much as he
49:12
cannot have it.
49:13  KT
But can I just say if we're
49:13
talking about like, radical
49:16
change, I could definitely see
49:16
ice putting dynamite at the
49:20
police station.
49:21  Oti
I think he'd only put it
49:21
there if he was told his bags of
49:25
money inside then able to take
49:25
it out. I feel like he's super I
49:29
feel like he's just another oral
49:29
and only a masterpiece. Yes. And
49:34
to me, those people are the
49:34
lowest of lows. So there's no
49:40
way I even enjoyed this
49:40
character. I think they can all
49:44
just get in the bin.
49:45  KT
Is there no point for
49:45
redemption because I felt he
49:48
wanted a cook Franklin
49:48
revolution? No. I think it was a
49:53
revolution.
49:58  Oti
He just wanted to Stop they
49:58
are done. That's all
50:01  KT
wow thank you ot Columbus
50:01
short. I don't know I
50:05
appreciated him because you
50:05
know, he's been through some
50:07
shit. You know, it's easy to
50:07
think you need to fight for
50:12
everyone when your will and you
50:12
have all of the privileges, but
50:15
sometimes your eyes and your eye
50:15
start on the street. Yeah,
50:19  Oti
nothing like self
50:19
gratification. Wow,
50:23  KT
indeed. I want to end on
50:23
something and it's kind of what
50:26
we ended on in head high.
50:26
Because while we were talking we
50:30
haven't talked about officer
50:30
Havili at all. Similar to head
50:34
high it wasn't explicitly said
50:34
but with my fine tuned Tony it
50:39
felt very clear to me that
50:39
officer Havili is gay
50:43  Oti
and that's why he was
50:43
kicked out of the community it
50:45
felt very don't say it dodgy
50:45
Dell said by name just make
50:52
bloody new windows. And that's
50:52
why I thought the writing
50:54
couldn't be better. You're
50:54
writing about bloody
50:56
revolutionary stuff,
50:56
revolutionize the culture make
51:00
it norm make it the norm, rather
51:00
than us trying to cower behind
51:05
some superlatives, or some
51:05
fucking in Windows in there.
51:09  KT
Yeah, it felt very Red
51:09
Cross. Do you want a revolution
51:13
not you because you're gay. You
51:13
can't talk about revolutionary
51:19
for everyone. And then just
51:19
like, withhold in the last
51:25
second, but I don't know for
51:25
someone that lives with their
51:31
whole full breasted chest. It
51:31
does frustrate me sometimes when
51:37
punches are pulled, especially
51:37
like you say, in stories and
51:41
events of radical change.
51:43  Oti
Yeah, because at the end of
51:43
the day, you could say it didn't
51:46
happen like that. Or they're
51:46
trying to depict how the culture
51:49
is you already know how the
51:49
fucking culture is. Yeah. And at
51:52
the end of the day that you made
51:52
a TV show, which is pure
51:55
entertainment, and which is
51:55
scripted. So push the boat, rock
51:58
the boat, make things
51:58
uncomfortable for people if they
52:02
deem so to be uncomfortable, or
52:02
make that uncomfortable. That's
52:05
the norm until it's not.
52:07  KT
And that's what I always say
52:07
to over tea. It's always a safe
52:10
space in the foyer reference
52:10
podcast. But it's not going to
52:13
be fucking comfortable because
52:13
we are a space of growth and
52:17
there's always growing. Hoo hoo.
52:17
Thank you, revolutionary friends
52:24
and lovers for joining us
52:24
another week in the foyer
52:26
reference podcast. We're going
52:26
to finish off in a segment we
52:29
call for your friends it
52:31  Oti
I'm going across the pond
52:31
over to Judas on the block
52:34
Messiah. I think if you want to
52:34
get more of your point of
52:38
lasers, we could get it about in
52:38
that as well.
52:40  KT
Oh, very nice. I will
52:40
reference head high. Since our
52:46
episode, it was announced that
52:46
the show wasn't going to
52:49
continue, which is very sad to
52:49
me. However, if if any sort of
52:54
platform we have that we can
52:54
afford to those that are in New
52:58
Zealand slash Australia, please
52:58
go and watch head high. And
53:03
maybe we can start our own
53:03
revolution. If you'd like to see
53:09
OT and Kirk Franklin sort of
53:09
flavorings on Twitter and
53:12
Instagram we're at for your
53:14  Oti
F blog. write us an email
53:14
at Hello fr podcast.com
53:17  KT
We're also on war minds your
53:17
fucking business and leave
53:21
people fucking alone unless
53:21
you're going to help them
53:23
podcast. If you'd like to leave
53:23
a rating and review. I will see
53:26
you guys next week. See ya