Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining me for session three hundred of the Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls Podcast. Yes, you are tuned into the three
Speaker 1: hundredth episode, and before we kick off our conversation, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say a very sincere thank you to
Speaker 1: each and every one of you who tune in every week.
Speaker 1: The team and I are so grateful for your support.
Speaker 1: It's not always easy to find resources that speak to
Speaker 1: our unique experiences as black women, and we're honored to
Speaker 1: serve as a trusted space for you to come in
Speaker 1: and get the real talk about mental health and to
Speaker 1: provide a space for you to feel seen, heard and supported.
Speaker 1: Here's the three hundred amazing episodes and many more to come.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and then we'll get into
Speaker 1: the conversation. This week, I'm pleased to be joined by
Speaker 1: today's distinguished guest, Ebony K. Williams. Ebany is an accomplished lawyer, author,
Speaker 1: and pundit who brings her legal expertise to various platforms.
Speaker 1: She's the host and executive producer of the dule ACP
Speaker 1: Image Award nominated podcast Holding Court with Eboney K Williams,
Speaker 1: and the author of bet on Black, The Good News
Speaker 1: about being Black in America Today. Ebony joins me today
Speaker 1: to discuss her roots as a trial attorney, her experiences
Speaker 1: as a black woman in the legal field, and part
Speaker 1: laying her law degree into the media industry and beyond.
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
Speaker 1: in session or join us in the sister circles. To
Speaker 1: talk more in depth about the episode, you can join
Speaker 1: us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's
Speaker 1: our conversation. So excited to chat with you today, Ebany,
Speaker 1: Thank you for a chatting with us today. Absolutely, longtime fan,
Speaker 1: Doctor Joy. You used to come on Revolt Black News
Speaker 1: a lot when I hosted, So this is lovely full circle. Indeed,
Speaker 1: indeed always a pleasure to chat with you. So you
Speaker 1: have worn so many hats throughout your life and year
Speaker 1: or so in terms of being a lawyer. I'm a
Speaker 1: podcast or a host, former member of the cast of
Speaker 1: Real Housewives of New York. But I want you to
Speaker 1: take us back to very young Ebony on the campus
Speaker 1: of UNC Chapel Hill and talk to us about her
Speaker 1: and what did she want to do in becoming a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and how do you think that that has changed or
Speaker 1: how has it stayed the same or some of those
Speaker 1: same motivations there, Oh, young Ebony. She was so precocious,
Speaker 1: so full of energy, so full of curiosity, always knew
Speaker 1: she wanted to be a lawyer. As I write about
Speaker 1: in my new book That on Black The Good News
Speaker 1: about being Black in America Today, I think I was
Speaker 1: a bit fortunate and that I always had a clear
Speaker 1: sense of my what, and over time I realized my why.
Speaker 1: So I knew I always wanted to be an attorney,
Speaker 1: mainly because people were always telling my mother, Gloria, who
Speaker 1: raised me as a single mom and the only child
Speaker 1: that with that mouth, she's got to be a lawyer
Speaker 1: or an actress. I was always raising my hand first,
Speaker 1: asking a million questions. So it was clear from a
Speaker 1: young age for me, doctor Joy, that something in the
Speaker 1: advocacy space, being a voice for the voiceless, was going
Speaker 1: to be my route in life. So I always do.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be an attorney. What I would say
Speaker 1: has evolved over time is my why. I believe that
Speaker 1: I started into the career path of being a lawyer
Speaker 1: and an attorney because I wanted to be credible as
Speaker 1: a black woman in America. I think that what we
Speaker 1: do know is that there are tragic presumptions around blackness
Speaker 1: in terms of our intellectual prowess, in terms of our
Speaker 1: credibility as professionals, and frankly as our qualifications to be
Speaker 1: in spaces right. And I think because my mother was
Speaker 1: born and raised in the segregated Jim Crow South Southeast Louisiana,
Speaker 1: which I know your family's from as well. Shout out
Speaker 1: to a meet and Tangentho Parish, she had the good
Speaker 1: sense to know that as a black girl speaking about
Speaker 1: this black girl she was raising me named ebony Keanna
Speaker 1: Williams growing up in the American South, that I would
Speaker 1: have to contend with a lot of preconceptions and misnomers
Speaker 1: about who I was as a black woman in America,
Speaker 1: and so taking that and marrying it with what I
Speaker 1: saw as spaces that were deemed highly credible and revered,
Speaker 1: which were professions in medicine, law, engineering go unchallenged more
Speaker 1: or less, more or less in terms of okay, if
Speaker 1: you show up and you are of that professional caliber,
Speaker 1: there's going to be some presumptions around work ethic, qualification
Speaker 1: and ability. That was a lot of my why as
Speaker 1: to why I wanted to be an attorney. I wanted
Speaker 1: to take some of those questions off the table when
Speaker 1: I entered the room as a black woman and a
Speaker 1: young presenting black woman at that right I started practicing
Speaker 1: at twenty three. I wanted those questions to be null
Speaker 1: and void on arrival. So those were my original wives.
Speaker 1: Where I have a vaultlved is now. Of course, my
Speaker 1: why is deeply centered in the celebration and amplification of
Speaker 1: black women. More broadly, it's less about proving who and
Speaker 1: what we are to others and it's more about being
Speaker 1: very clear and convincing, to use a legal term, clear
Speaker 1: and convincing evidentiary standards of who we are to each
Speaker 1: other and to ourselves. I love that, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I want to come back to that because I
Speaker 1: feel like there are some mental health implications that come
Speaker 1: with that load of kind of having to do all
Speaker 1: of these things right like and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of us, like I have that same kind of story
Speaker 1: of our parents feeling like we needed to do a
Speaker 1: thing to be able to survive in this world in
Speaker 1: the mental health tool that that really takes on us.
Speaker 1: But I want to put a pin in that so
Speaker 1: I can get a little bit more from your history
Speaker 1: and kind of hear about your experience with the law.
Speaker 1: So when you graduated from law school, what were you
Speaker 1: planning to do with your law degree and what kinds
Speaker 1: of things or words of wisdom would you want to
Speaker 1: share about job opportunities for recent law graduates. Love this question.
Speaker 1: So I graduated from Loyola University in New Orleans College
Speaker 1: of Law. I had a very successful law school experience,
Speaker 1: meaning graduated at the top of my class, came out
Speaker 1: as Missmook Court. I was on our national MOO core team.
Speaker 1: So I had a lot going for me. But I
Speaker 1: have to pause, he a doctor Joey and tell you
Speaker 1: the authenticity of my mother, Gloria, who I just spoke about.
Speaker 1: Even with all of that accolade, and I passed the
Speaker 1: bar on my first attempt, which was a blessing. Again
Speaker 1: at twenty three years old, I wanted to be the
Speaker 1: next Johnny Cochrane. I knew I wanted to be a
Speaker 1: trial attorney of high success. But as a lot of
Speaker 1: law students will tell you, the jobs, the big six
Speaker 1: ish figure jobs are few and far between, particularly when
Speaker 1: you start talking about being a black person in the law.
Speaker 1: And so those are the goals that many of us
Speaker 1: are force fed in law school. You know, those on
Speaker 1: campus interviews where the top ten to fifteen percent are
Speaker 1: invited to interview with the Sidney Austin's, which is the
Speaker 1: law from the Obama's practiced at and met at actually
Speaker 1: Jones Day, all of these big firms. So when I
Speaker 1: came out of law school, joy, Although I had all
Speaker 1: these credentials and accolades, what I didn't have because I
Speaker 1: graduated in two thousand and seven from law school, which
Speaker 1: was right around the bubble burst, and also right after
Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina, there was no job. So Gloria said, yeah, clapclop, congratulations.
Speaker 1: I ran into I was staying with her that summer.
Speaker 1: I ran into the house. I'm so excited, like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, Mom, I passed the bar. It's so amazing.
Speaker 1: She said, yeah, yeah, yeah, clap clap, You've got exactly
Speaker 1: two weeks to have an offer from a law fer
Speaker 1: or you're actually going to be taking your butt up
Speaker 1: to the They had just built a brand new PF
Speaker 1: Chains right down the street from the house. She said, yo,
Speaker 1: ass is gonna be serving letters wraps. And she was
Speaker 1: not playing at all. If you know this woman, you
Speaker 1: know how serious this she was. I knew she was serious. Joy.
Speaker 1: So what I did was, although I didn't have an offer,
Speaker 1: I did as Madam CJ. Walker tells us to do,
Speaker 1: which is go curate your own opportunity. Don't wait for
Speaker 1: someone to give you one. Curate it yourself. So I
Speaker 1: put on my black little power suit, which is again
Speaker 1: at the time what all women were instructed to put on,
Speaker 1: my ill colored stockings and my heels, and I pounded
Speaker 1: the pavement and I knocked on every law firm door
Speaker 1: in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where I was licensed
Speaker 1: to practice, and I made up interview times. I would
Speaker 1: literally walk in and say, oh, I'm here to speak
Speaker 1: to the hiring manager. Oh, he's not aware of your appointment.
Speaker 1: I said, Oh, that's so weird, but don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Here's my cover letter and resume. Just have him call me.
Speaker 1: And that worked exactly one time. Everybody else either ignored
Speaker 1: me or lacked me out of the office, but one firm,
Speaker 1: James McIlroy and Deal, which is a very prestigious family
Speaker 1: in civil litigation firms Charlotte. I actually got a call
Speaker 1: from the hiring partner and he said, miss Williams, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry about the confusion, but why don't you come
Speaker 1: in on Wednesday? And the rest is history. Wow. So
Speaker 1: what's something like that work these days? Like what kinds
Speaker 1: of suggestions would you give to recent law school graduates?
Speaker 1: I advise it, doctor Joy does I'll tell you why
Speaker 1: I advise it. Does it work in the way that
Speaker 1: it works for me? I can't tell you yes or no.
Speaker 1: What I can tell you was come the Christmas party
Speaker 1: of that same firm that I was then an associate
Speaker 1: with Jonathan admitted to me that he knew the whole
Speaker 1: thing was a sham, and he respected the huts buck.
Speaker 1: He said. Any young litigator that has essentially pardon my French,
Speaker 1: but the balls, if you will, or the ovaries, or
Speaker 1: the confidence and the courage to come into a firm
Speaker 1: of this caliber and position themselves as such, was worth meeting.
Speaker 1: So I do advise young graduates coming out of law,
Speaker 1: especially young black law school graduates, to show up and
Speaker 1: take up a lot of space. Think outside the box.
Speaker 1: Be unconvincid, because here's the thing, Joy, It's the same
Speaker 1: thing as a lot of journalists that work in the space.
Speaker 1: And we all go to NABJ and we come out,
Speaker 1: we all have our same little multicolored Callum news box dresses,
Speaker 1: our colored chef dresses, and our Barbie hare. The more
Speaker 1: you can distinguish yourself from your peers, because many of
Speaker 1: us will walk out with the same resumes and the
Speaker 1: same law review and move court credentials and this that
Speaker 1: in the third and it's all lovely. And even once
Speaker 1: you have that bar exam number in your hand and
Speaker 1: you have your license to practice, you are still a
Speaker 1: part of a relatively large collective. So I really recommend
Speaker 1: students thinking outside of the box and how they can
Speaker 1: position themselves as uniquely as possible. So, yes, Joy, I
Speaker 1: believe in the cold call. I wonder if there are
Speaker 1: some ways that people can use their legal degree in
Speaker 1: non traditional I mean, in a lot of ways. You're
Speaker 1: already doing that, But I do think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of grooming and socialization around, like getting a job at
Speaker 1: big law firms that happens in law. What kinds of
Speaker 1: things can people be doing to maybe think outside of
Speaker 1: the box, even fresh out of law school, indeed, fresh
Speaker 1: out of law school again, this narrative has held true.
Speaker 1: I can out of law school now, goodness, almost fifteen
Speaker 1: sixteen years ago, and what I'm hearing from students, doctor
Speaker 1: Joy is that it's still very much the same. The
Speaker 1: narrative is, make the good grades, get on the law review,
Speaker 1: moot court, fill in the blank, law clinic, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: get the resume, pass the bar, and go to big
Speaker 1: law if you're fortunate enough to do so. Now, when
Speaker 1: you talk to many big law associates and even some partners,
Speaker 1: they tend to be less than happy. And I'll leave
Speaker 1: that there. Not all of them I do know some
Speaker 1: people that are thriving, but they are few and far between.
Speaker 1: So I think that it's important for young people or
Speaker 1: people period, because I do think it's important to make
Speaker 1: space for black students who go to law school in
Speaker 1: quote non traditional times in life, you know, who have
Speaker 1: had a whole other career. In fact, I think this
Speaker 1: is really advisable to have a career in another space finance, business, education,
Speaker 1: you name it, medicine, even and then pivot at one
Speaker 1: point in time to pursue a legal career. And I
Speaker 1: think that is really advantageous to those people that come
Speaker 1: to the table with another perspective. So whenever you find
Speaker 1: yourself coming out of law school, I think you should
Speaker 1: really open yourself up to non traditional pathways. Like you're saying, Joy,
Speaker 1: think about working at public defenders offices. When I left
Speaker 1: big law, and I left the big six figure job
Speaker 1: a year, a little less than a year into the game,
Speaker 1: I went to be a public defender, which for me
Speaker 1: is where I really cut my teeth, and I say,
Speaker 1: I really learned how to practice law. Think about going
Speaker 1: to prosecutor offices. I really want to say that very loudly,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. I was talking to a colleague of mine
Speaker 1: in the space of law and media, and that is
Speaker 1: my sore BERNARDA Villelona, And she was a prosecutor in
Speaker 1: Philadelphia at the start of her career, and she got
Speaker 1: a lot of slat from the culture because the culture
Speaker 1: understandably has a lot of skepticism when it comes to
Speaker 1: black folks in prosecutorial spaces. But we will tell you
Speaker 1: there is no one more powerful in a courtroom other
Speaker 1: than a prosecutor and a judge, So we need to
Speaker 1: see more black faces occupying those spaces. Outside of that,
Speaker 1: you know, there are people that go straight into what
Speaker 1: an in house position looks like. Now we think of
Speaker 1: that as general counsel. That can be like a high
Speaker 1: up position that normally people graduate too. But you'd be
Speaker 1: surprised as to how many startups and small businesses could
Speaker 1: use legal counsel of a more transactional sort. My lawyer
Speaker 1: because I'm no longer practicing law and now I work
Speaker 1: as a businesswoman who is a content creator and producer.
Speaker 1: So my lawyer's on speetile. My lawyer is an IP lawyer.
Speaker 1: She's an intellectual property lawyer, and she is a business
Speaker 1: attorney in entertainment. She's fundamental to the game and she
Speaker 1: used to be by mentee when she was in law school.
Speaker 1: So I think the space is wide open, doctor Joy.
Speaker 1: I think a law degree, a jd. Is the fundamental,
Speaker 1: most flexible postgraduate degree one could have because you can
Speaker 1: really take up space in traditional practice of law, in
Speaker 1: business and just in executive leadership, beyond just the practice
Speaker 1: of law. So you've used a lot of terms that
Speaker 1: I want to make sure we define for our community
Speaker 1: who are non lawyers. So you have had experience as
Speaker 1: a public defender, You've worked in civil litigation, you've been
Speaker 1: in private practice. Can you define some of those terms
Speaker 1: for us? So what does it mean to be a
Speaker 1: public defender? Sure? So a public defender is a lawyer
Speaker 1: who works in the criminal space. So we're doing criminal law,
Speaker 1: and how I talked about the prosecutor. The prosecutor is
Speaker 1: the individual that brings the charges against someone accused of
Speaker 1: a crime. That public defender is there to make sure
Speaker 1: that prosecutor does their job, Doctor Joy. We are there
Speaker 1: to defend the civil and human and constitutional rights of
Speaker 1: all defendants that appear in court. And we are public
Speaker 1: defenders because we represent the indigen indigen is a term
Speaker 1: that essentially means the poor, they impoverished, those that cannot
Speaker 1: afford to pay for their own legal defense. It's in
Speaker 1: our constitution that everybody gets a legal defense, enter public defenders,
Speaker 1: and we can sometimes also get a bad rap in
Speaker 1: broader society. I assure you that I and so many
Speaker 1: other public defenders, y'all are incredible attorneys. We are brilliant,
Speaker 1: bright legal minds, and we really take our work very seriously.
Speaker 1: That's a public defender. Civil litigation. Civil litigation is when
Speaker 1: it's not about going to jail, it's about paying the money.
Speaker 1: So civil law is about not the criminal aspect, where
Speaker 1: you do go to jail if you're found quote guilty
Speaker 1: or in the wrong. In civil law, if you're found
Speaker 1: quote in the wrong, you are deemed to be liable
Speaker 1: and responsible for money damages. A great example of this
Speaker 1: is OJ Simpson right. OJ was tried in criminal court.
Speaker 1: He was found not guilty in the criminal court. The
Speaker 1: families of Nicole and Ron brought civil litigation charges. OJ
Speaker 1: was found liable in the civil court of law. Thus
Speaker 1: he had to pay the family millions of dollars in
Speaker 1: money damages. Gonnie, thank you for defining that for so,
Speaker 1: I am sure like doctors when they watch shows like
Speaker 1: Er and those kinds of things. I know that there
Speaker 1: are tons of law shows that I'm sure you have
Speaker 1: seen or maybe heard about, and I'd love for you
Speaker 1: to talk to us a little bit about what some
Speaker 1: of those shows get wrong, Like what are some of
Speaker 1: the kind of common misconceptions you see come up, and
Speaker 1: how is that different from the reality of what actually
Speaker 1: happens in courtrooms. Yeah, doctor Joe, I actually love watching
Speaker 1: law movies and law television shows. Some of my favorite
Speaker 1: movies Philadelphia around Tom Hanks's homosexual and AIDS patient suing
Speaker 1: his law firm. I love Law and Order. I love
Speaker 1: all the legal shows and movies. But yes, to your point,
Speaker 1: they get a lot wrong. I would say one of
Speaker 1: the main things they all get wrong is the time
Speaker 1: in which you see it happening, meaning to think that
Speaker 1: any case, mostly criminal or civil, you can have opening statements,
Speaker 1: direct exam, cross exam, jury, verdict, a pill, everything happened
Speaker 1: with this sixty minutes or two hours? Child, Please, It's
Speaker 1: never one of the reason that most lawyers will tell
Speaker 1: you that they probably love the law but could get
Speaker 1: frustrated with the law is the bureaucracy of the law,
Speaker 1: whether it's criminal work or transactional work or civil litigation work.
Speaker 1: Everything takes so long, girl, so many continuances, so many hearings,
Speaker 1: so many preluminary hearings, so many just different aspects that
Speaker 1: just take up so much time and energy that by
Speaker 1: the time we finally get to court, a lot of
Speaker 1: times we're exhausted mentally and emotionally. Somm So, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I love about your podcast Holding Court
Speaker 1: with Ebne Kaid Williams is that you will introduce us
Speaker 1: to a lot of hot topics in the law and
Speaker 1: like really calling our attention to things that we should
Speaker 1: be paying attention to. So, for our sisters who are
Speaker 1: in law, what are some cases that they should be
Speaker 1: paying attention to right now? Yes, thank you, doctor Joy
Speaker 1: for shutting out the podcast Holding Court, which I do
Speaker 1: weekly with my brilliant and so talented co host Dustin Ross.
Speaker 1: So we recorded this morning actually, so we talked about
Speaker 1: a lot of people are curious about what's happening with
Speaker 1: this Tiger Wood situation and the fact that his ex girlfriend,
Speaker 1: not ex wife, but ex girlfriend that he did live
Speaker 1: with for six years is bringing suit to do both
Speaker 1: throw out the NDA that she was required to sign
Speaker 1: as a part of their relationship, and she's also sewing
Speaker 1: for thirty million dollars in expenses that she claimed she's
Speaker 1: entitled to because of their cohabitation tendency agreement. So a
Speaker 1: lot of legal stuff there, but ultimately I really want
Speaker 1: women and black women to pay attention to this in
Speaker 1: the law because these are really issues that we need
Speaker 1: to be getting in front of as women in relationships. Right, So,
Speaker 1: establishing what living situation outcomes look like before breakups, this
Speaker 1: is where a prenup is important. If you're married, and
Speaker 1: even if you're not married, Please be clear, there are
Speaker 1: certain tangible, written agreements that can be put into place
Speaker 1: that says this is what we're agreeing to as cohabitants.
Speaker 1: If there is a break in the cohabitation, this is
Speaker 1: what you get, this is what I get. That can
Speaker 1: include the wealthier party paying living expenses in a hotel
Speaker 1: or other hollosing airbnb situation until that other partner finds
Speaker 1: a more permanent housing. The point is there's a lot
Speaker 1: of options on the table. You want to make sure
Speaker 1: that you're putting yourself in position to have those options
Speaker 1: enforced if said breakup occurs, and that's married or unmarried.
Speaker 1: So that's one of the cases. Yeah, another case that
Speaker 1: we covered. I think this is so important, Doctor Joey.
Speaker 1: You talked about this a lot on your show, this
Speaker 1: notion of black wealth building closing wealth gaps. The cultures
Speaker 1: vary into this topic, but one of the ways in
Speaker 1: which this shows up is in housing, right. And so
Speaker 1: there was a black couple in California that recently brought
Speaker 1: suit against an appraisal company for underbidding them literally and
Speaker 1: when they had their house a praise with their family
Speaker 1: photos of their beautiful black kids and family and their
Speaker 1: black art, they got a number that was like nine
Speaker 1: hundred thousand and something like that. Right when they had
Speaker 1: their white friends allowed them to use their white family
Speaker 1: photos and give a tour as a white family to
Speaker 1: the appraiser. All of a sudden, the house is worth
Speaker 1: one point five million. So they sued, and it's an
Speaker 1: amount that was not disclosed, which, as a lawyer tells me,
Speaker 1: it probably was a good number, a good number for
Speaker 1: the family. But I want the culture and black women
Speaker 1: in law to pay attention to that, doctor Joy, because
Speaker 1: that can serve as a model of how holding folks
Speaker 1: in real estate and commercial and residential property accountable for
Speaker 1: what happens when you undervalue blackness. And let's be clear,
Speaker 1: we have to name that that is what that practice is.
Speaker 1: Whether it's redlining, whether it's low balling appraisals for black
Speaker 1: homeowners and property owners, that is a form of anti blackness,
Speaker 1: and we have to call it out, whether it's in
Speaker 1: the law or in the culture, and in this case
Speaker 1: both more from my conversation with Ebony after the break.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned and you're talking about it now like
Speaker 1: you've moved from practicing laws to using all of your
Speaker 1: legal expertise as a podcast hosts in lots of different
Speaker 1: ways in the different varieties in the media. So can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how your experience as
Speaker 1: a trial lawyer really helps you to do the TV
Speaker 1: work that you do. Simply put, doctor Joy, I could
Speaker 1: not do what I do in television, on podcasting or
Speaker 1: even as an author without my years of experience. As
Speaker 1: for me a trial lawyer, my ability to do what
Speaker 1: I do on Holding Court, at my ability to do
Speaker 1: what I do on The Grio with Ebany K. Williams,
Speaker 1: which airs on the Grio every night at sixth Eastern,
Speaker 1: and of course what you read a lot of in
Speaker 1: bet On Black, the Good News about being Black in America,
Speaker 1: and even in my first book, Pretty Powerful. My lens
Speaker 1: is that of a black woman attorney. And that lens
Speaker 1: whether I'm in a courtroom at a bail hearing, or
Speaker 1: whether or not I'm sitting in front of a podcast
Speaker 1: Mike Keiki and with Dustin Ross, that lens is the
Speaker 1: same lens the issues. You know, we have this term
Speaker 1: in law school and practicing laws called issue spotting. My
Speaker 1: ability to produce Holding Court, which I executive produced, right,
Speaker 1: is reliant upon my ability to look at a news
Speaker 1: cycle on any given day and say, these are the
Speaker 1: issues we need to look at. I'll give you an example,
Speaker 1: Doctor George. The Mike Epps headline. So everybody's talking about
Speaker 1: the fact that Mike Epps was I don't have to
Speaker 1: say allegedly, because he has admitted to his possession of
Speaker 1: as he calls it, a pistol in his Instagram apology
Speaker 1: where he says he forgot he had a pistol in
Speaker 1: his backpack when he was at the Indiana airport. And
Speaker 1: everybody's talking about that is the headline. That's not where
Speaker 1: my mind went. The headline is the headline. But the
Speaker 1: issue that I was compelled to discuss on my show
Speaker 1: is the apology. Is the fact that when you, Mike
Speaker 1: Epps or Joe Schmo or Jane Doe or Sister Joe,
Speaker 1: when you get on social media and you, either by
Speaker 1: video or by tweet or text, apologize for behavior in
Speaker 1: a public forum, you are tacitly admitting the action. And
Speaker 1: while from a pr standpoint or narrative standpoint, Doctor Joy,
Speaker 1: that might be advantageous to some level, from a legal standpoint,
Speaker 1: you have now tied my hands. You have now limited
Speaker 1: my opportunities to build defense for you, if defense is needed.
Speaker 1: So that's just an example of my issues finding ability
Speaker 1: that come from me being a trial attorney. I'm not
Speaker 1: worried about whether you did or didn't have the gun.
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about whether or not you should have
Speaker 1: checked the bag. That's fine. Those issues are there. But
Speaker 1: the narrowly tailored issue that I want to bring people's
Speaker 1: awareness to that they otherwise would not necessarily be paying
Speaker 1: attention to is the legal consequence of that apology. So
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to other sisters in law
Speaker 1: school who maybe want to do similar things like you're doing,
Speaker 1: be a pundent on news and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: What advice would you give them? I would say, And
Speaker 1: I get this often, doctor Joyce, so thank you for
Speaker 1: bringing it up. I think it's very important to come
Speaker 1: to the table if you want to be a media personality,
Speaker 1: a trusted figure in legal spaces, but you want to
Speaker 1: do it in a broad television, multimedia, podcasts, radio way.
Speaker 1: The main thing is your credibility right in the fields
Speaker 1: that we have chosen to pursue, aspects of medicine, aspects
Speaker 1: of psychology, aspects of law, you name it. You are
Speaker 1: as good as your professional reputation for accuracy. So the
Speaker 1: main thing I would tell a young woman, a young
Speaker 1: black woman especially that wants to be in this space
Speaker 1: is as much as I am the biggest cheerleader for
Speaker 1: black women in all spaces, I cannot advocate for black
Speaker 1: women to be in this space and not tell them
Speaker 1: the difficult truth, which is that they will be held
Speaker 1: to a higher standard of credibility. The reality is is
Speaker 1: when you have the audacity, doctor joy as we have
Speaker 1: demonstrated them in our career choices to say that we're
Speaker 1: going to take up space and we're gonna center ourselves
Speaker 1: in these historically white professions. And we're not just going
Speaker 1: to do so in private practice, although we've done that,
Speaker 1: we're now going to have the audacity to do so
Speaker 1: in the public forum of syndicated radio, internationally distributed podcasting,
Speaker 1: nationally syndicated cable news. What have you? Right, you are
Speaker 1: literally begging for an enormous microscope of scrutiny and criticism
Speaker 1: to come your way. And I have to be very
Speaker 1: honest with our sisters about that, doctor Joy. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, look at what I did on the
Speaker 1: View a few weeks ago with to Santist, a massive
Speaker 1: invitation of scrutiny to who I am. But I'm able
Speaker 1: to do so at this point in my career. Let
Speaker 1: me be clear, At this point in my career, I
Speaker 1: get to do shit like that because I have earned
Speaker 1: the reputation for truth telling. And so that's what I
Speaker 1: would tell our sisters is trust a process. I write
Speaker 1: a whole chapter in my new book that I'm black
Speaker 1: around process. You can't expect to necessarily come out of
Speaker 1: the gates like, Okay, I just graduated from law school.
Speaker 1: I just passed the bar, and now I'm gonna sit
Speaker 1: at the view and tell off you know, de Santis
Speaker 1: and Trump and maybe Biden too. Right, there's a process,
Speaker 1: there's an earning of stripes. It doesn't mean you can't
Speaker 1: do it in a relatively quick timetable, but it means
Speaker 1: that your reputation for getting it right knowing what you're
Speaker 1: talking about from a legal perspective and a journalistic lens.
Speaker 1: And that is what you do when you decide that
Speaker 1: you want to do what I'm doing, what Sonny Houston
Speaker 1: is doing, what Star Jones in many ways originate, which
Speaker 1: was be a black woman who marries her law experience,
Speaker 1: background and degree with that of being a national or
Speaker 1: international public figure. Baby, you better be ready. That means
Speaker 1: you got to be damn good at both the law
Speaker 1: and the journalism of it, and you have to have
Speaker 1: the skin to tolerate the scrutiny that comes with that choice.
Speaker 1: So let's stay with the book for a little while.
Speaker 1: So in addition to that chapter, you also have a
Speaker 1: chapter in the book called no Need to Code Switch.
Speaker 1: When you talk about like some of the microaggressions and
Speaker 1: some of the things you share and made us think
Speaker 1: about the situation on Insecure with Molly when they tried
Speaker 1: to tell her like she was too loud in the office,
Speaker 1: and like a lot of the attempts to change her.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the
Speaker 1: microaggressions you experienced as a practicing lawyer in any advice
Speaker 1: you share for other people to how to navigate that. Indeed,
Speaker 1: Doctor George, So unfortunately we know that when you are
Speaker 1: a lawyer, whether it's an a firm, prosecutor's office, legal
Speaker 1: aid of counsel at a corp oration, historically, when people
Speaker 1: think lawyer, they still think old white man. So we
Speaker 1: got to start from that premise, right, So that is
Speaker 1: the expectation of space. So already, when you are a
Speaker 1: black woman in any of the aforementioned spaces of law,
Speaker 1: you are innately disruptive. So let's just sit with that.
Speaker 1: Just your mere presence, your mere doing your job every
Speaker 1: day and showing up to work is already making some
Speaker 1: folks uncomfortable before you've opened your mouth. So I want
Speaker 1: to sit with that, and I would encourage young black
Speaker 1: women or black women period in the law to sit
Speaker 1: with that, because that really relieves a lot of pressure
Speaker 1: around what you do or say, because if you think
Speaker 1: about it before you open your mouth, you have already
Speaker 1: disrupted general concepts and ideals around who gets to be
Speaker 1: a lawyer in America. So it's less about what was
Speaker 1: I too loud to ask too many questions that I
Speaker 1: not know enough. Let's not gaslight ourselves because that's what
Speaker 1: that is. Right. Let's not do the work of the
Speaker 1: oppressor for him or her or them. So let's not
Speaker 1: gaslight ourselves about the what we did, and just remember
Speaker 1: that our mere presence is disruptive in its entirety. Then
Speaker 1: traditional notions of accommodating white comfort. And by the way,
Speaker 1: when I talk about white comfort, it ain't just white people,
Speaker 1: the whole expectations of white comfort, doctor Joy. Unfortunately, as
Speaker 1: we saw in the Molly example, some of her own
Speaker 1: black colleagues when she did go to the Black Law
Speaker 1: Farm even were still bothered because they were so conditioned
Speaker 1: to expectations of whiteness. So a lot of this work
Speaker 1: that I talk about in the book is around divorcing
Speaker 1: ourselves as black women in law from white comfort and
Speaker 1: divorcing ourselves as black women in law and life. Mind you,
Speaker 1: everything I'm saying about the law, doctor Joy applies to life.
Speaker 1: These are life acts, right, But it's also divorcing ourselves
Speaker 1: from the need, the requirement from collective black buying, And
Speaker 1: that one's a little harder to sit with, I think
Speaker 1: for most of us, because who among us doesn't want
Speaker 1: to feel celebrated by the culture. Who doesn't want to
Speaker 1: feel like we are doing good work on behalf of
Speaker 1: our people and our culture. And we do. But if
Speaker 1: you are waiting for one hundred percent agreement from folks
Speaker 1: that look like you about the way in which you
Speaker 1: choose to show up at work, in life and your
Speaker 1: family and your relationship in your financial choices, you will
Speaker 1: be waiting for a very long time. So I encourage
Speaker 1: black women Joy to really divorce themselves from those requirements
Speaker 1: and start focusing on the authenticness of how they want
Speaker 1: to center blackness in their occupancy of space as black
Speaker 1: women attorneys, as black judges, as black businesswomen. So let's
Speaker 1: stay with the authenticity for a little bit, because we
Speaker 1: do know, in addition to what you talked about, like,
Speaker 1: there is all this additional scrutiny around styling choices, especially
Speaker 1: for black women, in terms of how we style our
Speaker 1: hair and what colors are we wearing, and you know
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So what does it even mean
Speaker 1: to show up authentically, especially in the spaces that you've occupied.
Speaker 1: This is where being liberated, doctor Joey is really important.
Speaker 1: What does it mean to show up authentically? It means
Speaker 1: exactly what you individual black woman says it does. It's
Speaker 1: nothing more or less than that. So I'll give you
Speaker 1: an example. I talk about this in great detail in
Speaker 1: my first book, Pretty Powerful, Appearance, Substance and Success, where
Speaker 1: the whole book is premised on the notion of what
Speaker 1: we look like as women in the world matters and
Speaker 1: deeply correlates with our professional ascension. Now, while that is
Speaker 1: a tragic reality, I think it's trash. That's the case
Speaker 1: right as Marsha Clark says in the book where I interview,
Speaker 1: we should be able to show up and try a
Speaker 1: case in a burlap sack if we wanted to. But
Speaker 1: that is not the condition of the world we live in,
Speaker 1: and up and until it changes, we are where we are.
Speaker 1: So there would have been a time in my life,
Speaker 1: doctor Joey, where I would not have even done this
Speaker 1: interview with you wearing the hoodie I'm wearing right now.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you the narrative that I was tethered
Speaker 1: to at that time. This makes black women look bad
Speaker 1: right to just be seen in something that wasn't demonstrative
Speaker 1: of modeling, respectability politics, That wasn't the classic black navy
Speaker 1: or gray blazer suit, that wasn't the crisp white collar shirt.
Speaker 1: I'm intentionally not wearing lipstick today. And a lot of
Speaker 1: why I made the aesthetic choices that I've made for
Speaker 1: our particular conversation, Doctor Joy, is because I really want
Speaker 1: this conversation to be accessible. And a lot of times
Speaker 1: when we as women, especially as Black women, especially as
Speaker 1: kind of classically or commercially described attractive black women, show
Speaker 1: up with all of the lashes and all of the
Speaker 1: beat and all of the extra which I love the
Speaker 1: extra child, but sometimes it can serve as a barrier
Speaker 1: for people really resonating and connecting with the content, and
Speaker 1: that was something I didn't think that we could afford
Speaker 1: to do in this conversation. So this is a very
Speaker 1: kind of stripped down version of my on camera aesthetic.
Speaker 1: So that's the thinking there. As for the sweatshirt, it's
Speaker 1: a sweatshirt with a very pronounced message that talks about
Speaker 1: generational curse breakers, and that's very important to what I'm
Speaker 1: doing in this work at this point in time, and
Speaker 1: I think it's very Germane to the conversation we're having.
Speaker 1: So there was thought here that is intention with what
Speaker 1: we say historically women and professional women and lawyers should
Speaker 1: look like if they want to be taken seriously. And
Speaker 1: yet I am challenging those around me by the choices
Speaker 1: I'm making in this particular aesthetic, and so that's the liberation.
Speaker 1: So this is my authenticity in this moment, and check
Speaker 1: me an hour later and it might look totally different.
Speaker 1: So really about bringing who you would like to bring
Speaker 1: to any particular space and having that be defined by
Speaker 1: yourself and be defined by yourself there in life deliberation,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. Yeah, Yeah, more from my conversation with Ebony
Speaker 1: after the break. So this fall, you're adding yet another
Speaker 1: title to your long list. So you'll be the youngest
Speaker 1: judge on syndicated daytime television with Equal Justice with Judge
Speaker 1: Ebony k Williams. So tell me what interested you in
Speaker 1: having a daytime court TV show and how it's going
Speaker 1: to be different than any other show we've seen. It's
Speaker 1: just fun. Like who in the world would not love
Speaker 1: the opportunity to sit above that bench and hold that
Speaker 1: gavel and partificate on the crazy that goes on in
Speaker 1: daytime court. So that's one of my wise. I do
Speaker 1: a lot of work. It's extremely intense and it's extremely rewarding,
Speaker 1: but at some point you gotta have a little fun.
Speaker 1: So that's a part of my wife or wanting to
Speaker 1: do equal justice with Judge Ebony Kay Williams. The other thing.
Speaker 1: A lot of my work early in my career Doctor Joy,
Speaker 1: my work on box news and cable news generally CNN, HLN,
Speaker 1: NFL network. It was tethered to only the work, and
Speaker 1: I was not able to bring my personality to the
Speaker 1: work because that's the mandate of doing the news right.
Speaker 1: The news does not necessarily care that. That's for talk
Speaker 1: right to talk shows the view, which is why I
Speaker 1: love doing it. The breakfast Club, right, those are spaces
Speaker 1: that are around your personality and our personality driven platforms.
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about the things that I really
Speaker 1: built the foundation of my career doing, people didn't even
Speaker 1: know who I was as a personality until for a
Speaker 1: lot of people Housewives or Breakfast Club. So that's really
Speaker 1: been only the last five or six years, and I've
Speaker 1: been doing just the broadcast stuff Doctor Joy for about
Speaker 1: twelve years. So part of wanting to do You the
Speaker 1: Judge Show, Equal Justice with Judge ny K Williams is finally,
Speaker 1: this is the culmination of my ability to be exactly
Speaker 1: who people here on holding court, A brilliant legal scholar
Speaker 1: who has an innate, almost uncanny sensibility when it comes
Speaker 1: to the law, know the law like the back of
Speaker 1: my hand, and like my first, middle and last name,
Speaker 1: I really do. I love the law, let it be known,
Speaker 1: and all of the shenanigans of who I am as
Speaker 1: a woman and as a personality. So those are the
Speaker 1: things how it's going to be different exactly what I
Speaker 1: just ended with. The reality is nobody can be you
Speaker 1: like you can be you. So this is not going
Speaker 1: to be an impersonation of Judge Judy or Judge Matthis
Speaker 1: a Judge Joe Brown, a Judge Maybeleen, and God bless
Speaker 1: all of those titans of industry, because that's exactly what
Speaker 1: they are, but respectively to them, now is the time
Speaker 1: for something else in addition to right Judge Mathis is
Speaker 1: now my network partner with Alan Media Group and Entertainment Studios,
Speaker 1: which is incredible honor. Right, and yet the culture I
Speaker 1: believe deserves a fresh take, a new iteration of what
Speaker 1: daytime court is for this moment culturally, and so I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to bring that. I'll give you a good example.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of critique, I believe, rightfully, so
Speaker 1: I was one of the first voices of searing critique
Speaker 1: of what Chris Rock is currently doing in comedy, and
Speaker 1: some are jumping to his defense to say, well, he's
Speaker 1: from an era where those types of jokes doctor joy
Speaker 1: that come at the obvious expense of black safety and
Speaker 1: black liberation, those kind of jokes were permitted were being operative.
Speaker 1: I think that's how I feel about daytime Court. To
Speaker 1: be candid, I think that there have been historic levels
Speaker 1: of anti blackness that have shown up in courtrooms with
Speaker 1: judges who were black, white, and other and it was
Speaker 1: permitted at that time. Culturally. Thank God, when we know better,
Speaker 1: we do better, Thank God, and thank God because we
Speaker 1: already more culturally elevated and culturally conscious point in time
Speaker 1: in our existence, we get to do daytime court in
Speaker 1: a way that is funny, entertaining, compelling, interesting, engaging, and
Speaker 1: yet still revers the treasure that is blackness. But you
Speaker 1: will never see in my courtroom that unfortunately we have
Speaker 1: seen in other people's is me taking slights, making digs
Speaker 1: or trying to be cute at the expense of blackness.
Speaker 1: It'll never happen. So I'm curious, Emmany, how are you
Speaker 1: staying connected to like learning? So you clearly have to
Speaker 1: stay on top of what's happening legally. You talked about
Speaker 1: yourself as a legal scholar. How are you staying on
Speaker 1: top of that even though you're not practicing? I read,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. I read. It's really important for me to
Speaker 1: communicate how important reading is. And when I say reading,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy, we live in the technology age. We live
Speaker 1: in the information age. That could be audiobooks, that can
Speaker 1: be listening to articles. I subscribe to a lot of news.
Speaker 1: That's what I do. So I subscribe to The New
Speaker 1: York Times, Washington Post, The Atlantic, the Athletic PBS. People
Speaker 1: want to know, like Dan, why are you so swaggy?
Speaker 1: Why are you walk in the room and just take
Speaker 1: up so much space? There's so much bravado because actor jority.
Speaker 1: Reality is I don't care how it sounds. When I
Speaker 1: walk into ninety nine point nine percent of rooms I
Speaker 1: walk into, yes, including the ones here in Midtown Manhattan,
Speaker 1: I already know I'm walking in knowing more, looking better,
Speaker 1: and just harder working than most people in the space.
Speaker 1: It's a reality. It's the reality, and I work damn
Speaker 1: hard to make sure that remains the reality. So I
Speaker 1: read a lot. I consume a lot of documentaries and
Speaker 1: multimedia content. I listened to your podcast, and it's not
Speaker 1: just all the law, it's not just all news and politics.
Speaker 1: I listened to a lot of relationship podcast. I listened
Speaker 1: to Paulsey Brunson, I listened to my friend now Demona Hoffman.
Speaker 1: Like I just indulge in consume from the brilliant minds
Speaker 1: like yours and our peers that I have availability and
Speaker 1: access to. So that's really how I stay on the
Speaker 1: top of my game. MM. So that's something for everybody
Speaker 1: to answer the list. It's reading more and that really
Speaker 1: helps you in lots of different spaces. You see behind me,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy in this bookshelf a lot of these works,
Speaker 1: and I talk about this in bed on Black, Don't
Speaker 1: Be Afraid to revisit something because who I am today
Speaker 1: at almost thirty nine years old, almost forty, when I
Speaker 1: read the Soul of Black Folk today, believe me, it
Speaker 1: hits different than when I read the Soul of Black
Speaker 1: Folk at fifteen, When I read the Narrative of Frederick
Speaker 1: Douglas today, that is a totally different lens of experience
Speaker 1: in which I'm consuming that at age eight, or even
Speaker 1: age twenty two, or even age thirty two. So I
Speaker 1: encourage our people especially to read, because y'all, there's a
Speaker 1: reason I go into all this detail in the book.
Speaker 1: As you know, doctor Joy, there is a reason it
Speaker 1: used to be punishable by death for Black Americans to
Speaker 1: read on this land, because in the pages of the
Speaker 1: books are the liberation points. When you know who and
Speaker 1: whose you are, which you're best learning back to me
Speaker 1: through information, it's hard to oppress and subsidize and make
Speaker 1: you subsidiary. You just kind of innately show up in
Speaker 1: a different posture when you know exactly your authentic story.
Speaker 1: So I want to go back to that mental health
Speaker 1: conversation that we talked about earlier, and just you know,
Speaker 1: it sounds like again, your story is very much like
Speaker 1: a lot of young black women in that. You know,
Speaker 1: we've been conditioned in this like work twice as hard
Speaker 1: to get half as much, and there definitely is a
Speaker 1: tool on your mental health, I think because of that,
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about how you
Speaker 1: have taken care of your mental health as a practicing
Speaker 1: lawyer and even now I take my mental health very
Speaker 1: very seriously, doctor Joy. Let me start with that, which
Speaker 1: is why again I am set beyond your peer in colleague.
Speaker 1: I'm a fan first and foremost because we've got to
Speaker 1: not normalize, doctor Joy, having these mental health conversations. But
Speaker 1: I think, like, go beyond that. Normalizing is not enough
Speaker 1: in the society we live in. To me, we've got
Speaker 1: to just like you know, we celebrate drip and everybody
Speaker 1: wants the Louis this and the Rolex that which listen.
Speaker 1: I'm here for all of the drip, but if you
Speaker 1: aren't in therapy, I'm probably looking at you sideways personally,
Speaker 1: you know, because that is an investment, unlike anything else,
Speaker 1: it is an appreciable asset. My ability to do what
Speaker 1: I do at the level in which I do it
Speaker 1: is wholly contingent on my ability to be mentally and
Speaker 1: emotionally well. When we talk about wellness like, I mean
Speaker 1: that shit literally. I have to be well in order
Speaker 1: to do the breakfast club and the Grio and the
Speaker 1: View in the same day, doctor Joy. I have to
Speaker 1: be well to write this book and then go on
Speaker 1: a seven city book tour and then do the accompanying
Speaker 1: press that comes with it. You gotta be well, So
Speaker 1: I would say, for me, I have invested in individual
Speaker 1: talk therapy for the past oh gosh, since basically I
Speaker 1: moved to New York City. I saw my very first
Speaker 1: therapist when I was on campus at UNC Chapel Hill,
Speaker 1: where it was becoming apparent to me I would get
Speaker 1: into spaces where for weeks at a time, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to leave my room. I would just sit in
Speaker 1: the dorm watching reruns of Golden Girls. Shout out to
Speaker 1: Golden Girls. But I knew there was something going on
Speaker 1: where I was. Now, I know I was isolating, right,
Speaker 1: I was isolating. I was definitely having at least some
Speaker 1: level of low to mid great depression going on, and
Speaker 1: I was self medicating like a lot of people do
Speaker 1: with alcohol and probably some overeating as well. So I
Speaker 1: saw my first therapist at the undergraduate level through student health.
Speaker 1: And so I want to talk about resources because a
Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, I'm of a generation, thank
Speaker 1: god you and your contemporary doctor George changing this, but
Speaker 1: I'm from a generation where therapy was some white people
Speaker 1: shit right, and especially if you were raised in the
Speaker 1: church or with a faith practice, it was not of God, right.
Speaker 1: So I want to challenge the culture here when we
Speaker 1: start talking about the importance of making space for authentic
Speaker 1: Black identity and mental health treatment and therapy and faith
Speaker 1: and beliefs in whatever your higher power is. And it's
Speaker 1: not an or, it's an end. So talk therapy is
Speaker 1: very important to me. Something else that I did. I'm
Speaker 1: a proud graduate of the Hoffman Institute. It's not therapy.
Speaker 1: It is a wellness center. There's one in Connecticut and
Speaker 1: there's also one in the Napa Valley area of California.
Speaker 1: It's a seven day long retreat where you turn your
Speaker 1: phone in and iPad and all that good jazz. They
Speaker 1: lock it up like you're going to Beyonce concert, don't
Speaker 1: get it back until eight days later. And I know
Speaker 1: that's gonna like sound insane to a lot of people
Speaker 1: listening to this conversation. When I tell you, doctor Joy,
Speaker 1: that along with my law degree, are the two best
Speaker 1: investments I've ever made into my own self. I mean
Speaker 1: that from the bottom of my heart. We unpack childhood trauma,
Speaker 1: we learn to forgive our parents, ourselves, our circumstances. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you guys, just got to forgive the circumstances in which
Speaker 1: you were born, right, and then from that, I've been
Speaker 1: able to build incredible relationships, starting first with me and myself,
Speaker 1: and forgive myself for the things I did when I
Speaker 1: was just trying to survive, for the choices I made,
Speaker 1: including my first marriage when I was just trying to survive.
Speaker 1: So Hoffman Institute talk therapy. I also am very public
Speaker 1: and the fact that I take five milligrams of Selexe
Speaker 1: every day and that is to help quell my innate anxiety.
Speaker 1: I've got a black woman primary care doctor. I've got
Speaker 1: a black woman O B G y N. I've got
Speaker 1: a black woman everything you know, for the most part,
Speaker 1: and that is a part of my wellness commitment. I
Speaker 1: love that I hadn't heard of the Hoffman Institute, so
Speaker 1: I'll definitely check that out. It sounds like an interesting program. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so just about five percent of lawyers are black. So
Speaker 1: you've already alluded to this, but I want you to
Speaker 1: kind of really drive home the importance of having black
Speaker 1: people show up in all of these spaces, in the
Speaker 1: TV and media, in the courtroom, Like, why is that
Speaker 1: so important, doctor Georgy's important because, as the African proverb
Speaker 1: tells us, as long as the hunter writes the story,
Speaker 1: the lion will always lose. Thus, as long as we
Speaker 1: are not plentiful enough in practicing law, both as prosecutors,
Speaker 1: defense lawyers, as transactional attorneys, as litigation specialists in the
Speaker 1: public sector, the private sector, you name it, as long
Speaker 1: as there are not enough black storytellers in talk, in radio,
Speaker 1: in podcasting, in written works in traditional New York Times,
Speaker 1: LA Times, Washington Post, traditional journalistic outlets, as long as
Speaker 1: we are what we currently are, which is five to
Speaker 1: sometimes two to sometimes one, if we're lucky seven percent
Speaker 1: of those spaces, we will always be vulnerable to our
Speaker 1: stories being hijacked by dominant storytellers. It's just that simple.
Speaker 1: It's actually that simple. So one thing that really still
Speaker 1: bothers me, doctor Joy is when we talk about tokenism,
Speaker 1: even amongst ourselves, when we say, well, oh, we already
Speaker 1: got a black person on the viewer. We already got
Speaker 1: a black person at the Today Show, we already got
Speaker 1: a black person who's been Attorney general. You've got to
Speaker 1: be kidding me. Do you know how many old white men,
Speaker 1: how many white women occupy the same We would never
Speaker 1: hear a narrative that says, oh, the viewer already has
Speaker 1: two white women, like we would never hear that, you know,
Speaker 1: Or we would never hear like the breakfast club already
Speaker 1: has two men. I think some of our work, and
Speaker 1: we still have work that we need to do internally,
Speaker 1: is around us reshaping expectations that we have of us
Speaker 1: and ourselves as a culture. A lot of my work,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy is not really rooted in white change. I
Speaker 1: think that that's important. I love my colleagues that do
Speaker 1: that work. That's not my ministry. I'm not particularly interested
Speaker 1: in changing white people. Contrary to misconceptions people got from
Speaker 1: my time on Ronie, that was never about those white
Speaker 1: women child. It really wasn't. And if you really pay attention,
Speaker 1: it's obvious that it's not right. You see, I'm talking
Speaker 1: through them when I'm having a conversation with lu Anne
Speaker 1: del SEPs, for instance, who has the audacity to ask
Speaker 1: me if I've ever heard of Sag Harbor And I
Speaker 1: say to her very casually, oh, my god, lu and
Speaker 1: I love sack Harbor. You do know. It was one
Speaker 1: of the original places of waterfront property where black elites, doctors, lawyers, judges, engineers, nurses,
Speaker 1: teachers were able to own waterfront resort property in the
Speaker 1: United States of America. I love Sag Harbor. And she's
Speaker 1: looking crazy in the face because she doesn't even know
Speaker 1: that the cultural rich history of her own property. That
Speaker 1: was not a teachable moment for Luanne. I don't give
Speaker 1: a damn if Luanne Nu didn't know, still don't know, right,
Speaker 1: that is a broader mirror for us to know. My
Speaker 1: mama didn't know that until she saw that episode of
Speaker 1: Ronnie Doctor Joy. That's for us. And listen, if you're
Speaker 1: white or other and you resonate with it, consider it
Speaker 1: vicarious education. But it is not intended for you. That's
Speaker 1: our medicine that we need to know so that we
Speaker 1: can walk a little more boldly and proudly and more
Speaker 1: beautifully in our own existence. So those are some of
Speaker 1: the things I would say, Where is our internal work
Speaker 1: as a people in a culture. That's why I wrote
Speaker 1: that on black it is written for us. This is
Speaker 1: not convincing white people of how great and wonderful and
Speaker 1: special Black people are. I think before we spend more
Speaker 1: time on that, we've got to be wholly convinced our
Speaker 1: own selves, not in a facade. We can't afford to
Speaker 1: have a veneer around it. We've really got too deeply
Speaker 1: understand and have a knowingness, doctor Joy. You know again,
Speaker 1: confidence comes from competence, and a lot of the reason
Speaker 1: I call blackness my superpower is because I really know
Speaker 1: the narrative of our innate competence as a people, both
Speaker 1: historically and in contemporary context. Not enough of us know that,
Speaker 1: which is why and then you see legislators, you know,
Speaker 1: working overtime to make sure we don't know it. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not bothered by it, because I know that we
Speaker 1: are a people that the most historic challenges have never
Speaker 1: prevented us from doing what we do and knowing who
Speaker 1: we are. So we just have to continue that work.
Speaker 1: So I know so many people are going to one
Speaker 1: and stay connected to you and grab copies of your book.
Speaker 1: Where can we find you online? Ebane. What is your
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles you'd like
Speaker 1: to share? Yes, please go to my website. It is
Speaker 1: Ebony k Williams dot com, Ebo ni Ka Williams dot com.
Speaker 1: You can get links to better on Black of course.
Speaker 1: Also the first book Pretty Powerful. I really recommend that
Speaker 1: book for women in business and law and it's fantastic. Also,
Speaker 1: you can see my whole archives, so you know, again,
Speaker 1: we talk about content, doctor Joy. We talk about how
Speaker 1: you learn and what resources you can avail yourself to.
Speaker 1: I have archived every single Breakfast Club interview. You can
Speaker 1: spend a whole day just on Ebony kay Williams dot
Speaker 1: com watching Breakfast Club interviews, watching sidebars from the Grio,
Speaker 1: listening to interviews on the View and what have you.
Speaker 1: So I really really welcome y'all to that platform, which
Speaker 1: is my website and social media wise, I'm an auntie,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. Okay, I'm not winning, so if you look
Speaker 1: for me on TikTok, you would be disappointed. Okay. I
Speaker 1: am only on Instagram. Okay, Eboney Kay Williams on Instagram.
Speaker 1: I do check my dms myself. Please reach out if
Speaker 1: you have questions or just want to chit chat perfect well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, Ebanie,
Speaker 1: this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1: Deeply grateful to you. A huge thank you to Ebony
Speaker 1: for joining us this week and for sharing her wisdom
Speaker 1: and insight with our community. To learn more about the
Speaker 1: work that she's doing and to stay connected to everything
Speaker 1: coming up for her, be sure to visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com sash Session three hundred,
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls and
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode as well. In
Speaker 1: case you missed it, yesterday, we dropped our very first
Speaker 1: episode of TVG University, which caters exclusively to the College
Speaker 1: Day's sisters in our community. That episode is all about
Speaker 1: the growing pains of graduating college, so be sure to
Speaker 1: check it out or pass it along to someone who
Speaker 1: might appreciate the conversation. You can find more information about
Speaker 1: that in the show notes as well. If you're looking
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or
Speaker 1: just be a community with other sisters. Come on over
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
Speaker 1: can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Elise Ellis
Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so
Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward
Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take
Speaker 1: it care