Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining me. Prosession three h one of the Therapy before
Speaker 1: Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. Last week we shared part one
Speaker 1: of a conversation about exploring non traditional pathways as a
Speaker 1: black woman in the legal field, and this week we're
Speaker 1: back with part two. This week, I'm joined by Patrese Perkins,
Speaker 1: a business and intellectual property attorney with a focus on
Speaker 1: arts and culture, new media, and entertainment. She's also the
Speaker 1: founder of Creative Genius Law, a strategic legal partner that
Speaker 1: helps traditionally disempowered creatives use their intellectual property to build impact,
Speaker 1: generational wealth, and legacy. Patrese and I discuss the path
Speaker 1: to becoming a partner or opening your own firm, the
Speaker 1: importance of setting boundaries as an attorney, how she protects
Speaker 1: her mental health, and the importance of protecting your ideas
Speaker 1: as a creative entrepreneur. If something resonates with you while
Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, be sure to share it with us
Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session. Here's
Speaker 1: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Patrese, Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to be here, very exciting to have our
Speaker 1: very own Therapy for Black Girls attorney joining us here
Speaker 1: on the podcast. So, Patrese, you are the founder and
Speaker 1: principal attorney of your legal firm, Creative Genius Law. Can
Speaker 1: you say what it means to be the principal attorney
Speaker 1: and how is that similar or different to being like
Speaker 1: a partner at a law firm. It is simply meaning
Speaker 1: that I am the key attorney for the firm, and
Speaker 1: so it's very much similar. The only difference is that
Speaker 1: we probably wear multiple hats just because we are in
Speaker 1: a smaller firm. Got it. Before you start a creative genius.
Speaker 1: You have worked in a variety of different settings as
Speaker 1: an attorney. What is the path to becoming a partner
Speaker 1: at a traditional law firm? Typically, the path to becoming
Speaker 1: a partner starts before you even leave law school. So
Speaker 1: you are typically looking for a summer associate position at
Speaker 1: a law firm, which is basically a summer internship, and
Speaker 1: that begins the relationship with firms that you've identified as
Speaker 1: firms of interest. And then once you are ready to
Speaker 1: exit law school, assuming that summer internship or a summer
Speaker 1: associateship went well, then there may be an offer coming
Speaker 1: from that firm, or you may learn from that experience
Speaker 1: that you're not interested in that firm. But the process
Speaker 1: starts pretty early. The path to partnership is typically being
Speaker 1: on your a game from the moment you step foot
Speaker 1: in the door, and also being in close contact with
Speaker 1: whoever your assignmntors are at the firm so they can
Speaker 1: help you craft a career plan that suited to your goal. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I want to stop here a patrise because you
Speaker 1: tell me if I'm wrong, But it sounds like because
Speaker 1: that process starts too early, right, Like if you are
Speaker 1: starting this process basically before you graduate. Do both law
Speaker 1: students then go to law school knowing that this is
Speaker 1: what I want to do. It seems like you almost
Speaker 1: have to to be able to put yourself on that track.
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm wanting to know is, like, where
Speaker 1: is the space for like exploration if you have to
Speaker 1: decide so early that you want to be kind of
Speaker 1: on this partner track. That is an excellent question because
Speaker 1: one of my gripes with law school was really centered
Speaker 1: around the fact that you're steered in one of two directions.
Speaker 1: You're either steered down the big law path, which is
Speaker 1: what I just described, or you're typically steered down the
Speaker 1: public service path. At least when I was in law school,
Speaker 1: there really wasn't in between, and so for anyone who
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that was maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: non traditional, you had to really use your own personal
Speaker 1: resources to plot out what that path looked like for you.
Speaker 1: There was definitely no blueprint. M Okay, so what are
Speaker 1: some non traditional spaces in the law. So some people
Speaker 1: go into policy as lawyers, and they may have gone
Speaker 1: into law school thinking they want to be a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and then leaving realizing that they could impact a law
Speaker 1: in different ways through policy, and I actually have seen
Speaker 1: that happen a lot with people who carry public service interests,
Speaker 1: specifically interests around education or things of that nature. Another
Speaker 1: non traditional path is actually starting your own law firm,
Speaker 1: even though we have more recent law grads who are
Speaker 1: kind of branching out on their own sooner, that's definitely
Speaker 1: considered an out of the box path. And then also
Speaker 1: in house council for a corporation, right, so you could
Speaker 1: work for like as Blue Shield or any of these
Speaker 1: corporations who need to have attorneys in the house. I
Speaker 1: would say, even though that is a popular path, it's
Speaker 1: still a little bit out of the box because, based
Speaker 1: on my experience, law school didn't really necessarily train you
Speaker 1: or groom you towards that path. Okay, So that's really
Speaker 1: interesting because I feel like a lot of lawyers end
Speaker 1: up opening their own firm, But it sounds like that
Speaker 1: it's still considered non traditional. Can you say why that is?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so, Usually when lawyers start their own firm, it's
Speaker 1: because maybe they had the entrepreneurial book to begin with, right,
Speaker 1: and so that was always a part of their vision.
Speaker 1: And I think that those lawyers are actually still in
Speaker 1: the minority, just because we are not wired to really
Speaker 1: think that way. We think we go to law school,
Speaker 1: we get the plush law firm job, and that is
Speaker 1: the American dream for many lawyers. For other lawyers, it's
Speaker 1: usually in response to some sort of external circumstance. So
Speaker 1: it could be that the jobs aren't there when I
Speaker 1: was graduating from law school. Is very tough because I'm
Speaker 1: in a market where there are five law schools, five
Speaker 1: respected law schools, and so when everyone is graduating at
Speaker 1: the same time, we have a lot of competition for
Speaker 1: essentially the same roles. And we were dealing with a
Speaker 1: recession at the time. This was in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: so there just weren't a lot of jobs available. So
Speaker 1: some people launch their firms in response to not being
Speaker 1: able to find other work. And then I think that
Speaker 1: you do have people who are realizing that the quality
Speaker 1: of life at a larger firm in particular is not
Speaker 1: really aligned with what they want for themselves personally. So
Speaker 1: they may have worked in big law or a more
Speaker 1: traditional job for maybe one to three years and they realize, hey,
Speaker 1: this is not as suited to me. Maybe building a family,
Speaker 1: it's not suited to me having more flexible lifestyle, and
Speaker 1: so they are branching out for that reason as well,
Speaker 1: to have more control over their own lifestyle. So I
Speaker 1: want to get a little bit more granular when we
Speaker 1: say big law, what does that mean? Like what qualifies
Speaker 1: a firm as a big law firm? A big law
Speaker 1: firm is typically operating in multiple states, and they typically
Speaker 1: have thousands of attorneys. Even a mid sized firm is
Speaker 1: typically a firm that may have a couple of hundred attorneys.
Speaker 1: And so when we're talking big law, we're talking about
Speaker 1: a firm that has thousands of attorneys across the country,
Speaker 1: usually multiple offices, and there's a hierarchy. So when you
Speaker 1: are starting at a law firm, you're starting as an associate,
Speaker 1: which is essentially the entry level position, and then throughout
Speaker 1: your career, you probably are looking to move yourself up
Speaker 1: the ranks you mentioned earlier partner track, and that is
Speaker 1: typically a goal of someone who wants to work in
Speaker 1: big law. So it's the size of the firm that
Speaker 1: qualifies it. Got it, Okay, So you already started to
Speaker 1: give us a little bit about your background before opening
Speaker 1: your firm, but can you tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: more about your journey, like what actually led to you
Speaker 1: opening your own firm? So I worked full time. And
Speaker 1: it's funny, doctor Joy, because I didn't answer that question.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I skipped over it. But I
Speaker 1: started my employment journey while in law school, initially for
Speaker 1: a two attorney law firm. That was excellent experiences because
Speaker 1: not only did I get to do real attorney work
Speaker 1: because the law firm was so small, I also got
Speaker 1: to see what it looked like for a law firm
Speaker 1: owners to split up. The partners split up while I
Speaker 1: was there, and so I went from working for a
Speaker 1: two partner firm to a solo attorney firm, and so
Speaker 1: I would say that was the best experience ever because
Speaker 1: when you're in a shop that's small, you learn some
Speaker 1: of the business of the law. You start to learn
Speaker 1: how to lawyer before you are really a lawyer. From there,
Speaker 1: I went to working for a legal aid organization that
Speaker 1: service people with disabilities in the elderly and I ran
Speaker 1: their continuing legal education program. So with that opportunity, I
Speaker 1: was able to develop a lot of attorney relationships because
Speaker 1: I was working with the volunteer network of attorneys, and
Speaker 1: I was also able to really get the feel of
Speaker 1: launching something from the ground up. So at that time,
Speaker 1: continuing legal education was a new thing that was required
Speaker 1: of us, and so this was the first time the
Speaker 1: organization had to launch a continue in illegal aid program,
Speaker 1: and I got to do that while in law school
Speaker 1: from the ground up. From there, I went to a
Speaker 1: government position. My office was appointed by the federal courts,
Speaker 1: and I got to oversee what we call illegal patronage
Speaker 1: hiring in Illinois, meaning you are hired because of your
Speaker 1: political affiliation and not because of merits. And I was
Speaker 1: in that role for five years. So I was in
Speaker 1: that role while in law school, and then when I
Speaker 1: became licensed, I became a staff attorney, overseeing a large
Speaker 1: part of that office, and then I branched out on
Speaker 1: my own. The wonderful thing about me branching out on
Speaker 1: my own was number One, I had clarity around what
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I had always worked with populations
Speaker 1: that were underserved through all of my work and through
Speaker 1: my employment journey. My personal life was revealing to me
Speaker 1: that creative that I knew didn't have attorneys, and I
Speaker 1: decided that that would be the next underserved population that
Speaker 1: I would work with. And I had a boss that
Speaker 1: was very supportive because my office was temporary. We were
Speaker 1: going to go away as soon as a federal judge
Speaker 1: that we no longer needed to exist, and she was
Speaker 1: very supportive about essentially supporting my path forward as long
Speaker 1: as it didn't interfere with that current job. So I
Speaker 1: was able to step out of that role into my
Speaker 1: firm pretty seamlessly with about two years of planning. Though
Speaker 1: I love that. So what have been some of the
Speaker 1: unforeseen challenges that you didn't expect in opening your own firm?
Speaker 1: The biggest was the emotional journey that came along with it.
Speaker 1: Most people would probably think the financial commitment, but I
Speaker 1: had taken two years to kind of plot out my
Speaker 1: path from my prior job, meaning I had saved the money,
Speaker 1: I had begun to develop a group of clientele. The
Speaker 1: part that I was not prepared for was the emotional
Speaker 1: strain that starting a firm would have on me. And
Speaker 1: I say all the time, there needs to be training
Speaker 1: for that, because that was for me, the biggest piece
Speaker 1: of the puzzle that presented the biggest challenge for me.
Speaker 1: So when you say emotional strain, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples. So one part of
Speaker 1: it came from the fact that I was dealing with
Speaker 1: a major lifestyle change because I had started my legal
Speaker 1: career fairly early. I went from a job where I
Speaker 1: was making almost two hundred thousand dollars as a very
Speaker 1: young person, and for someone who didn't go the big
Speaker 1: law path to be making that amount of money before
Speaker 1: you even graduate a law school, that was pretty rare,
Speaker 1: especially at that time, and so naturally, when you step
Speaker 1: out on your own, you're not living that same six
Speaker 1: figure lifestyle anymore. So that was really the first thing.
Speaker 1: I went from being able to essentially do what I
Speaker 1: wanted as a young person to now literally gott in
Speaker 1: the eye and hearing the one to make sure I
Speaker 1: could pay my bills right. And so there was a
Speaker 1: mental shift because I couldn't do all the brunches, I
Speaker 1: couldn't hang out as much. I had to spend more
Speaker 1: time at home to save money because I live in
Speaker 1: a large city and things were getting expensive. So it
Speaker 1: was the mental impact of just a different lifestyle. And
Speaker 1: then there was the mental impact of being the person
Speaker 1: that it felt like people dumped on. So when you
Speaker 1: are an attorney, you're essentially wearing multiple hats, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: and so you get clients on their good days, but
Speaker 1: you also get clients when they are stressed and on
Speaker 1: their bad days. And so that was the other piece
Speaker 1: of it, just learning how to navigate clients who are
Speaker 1: having tough days continue to be clients centered and managed
Speaker 1: to not carry whatever was weighing on them or weighing
Speaker 1: on me during the work day outside of work, and that, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's still a work in progress. It's become easier, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly a work in progress. So can you share,
Speaker 1: like what kinds of things helped you to really get
Speaker 1: some skills and some help around like releasing this emotional
Speaker 1: strain and how you've been able to set boundaries with clients,
Speaker 1: Like I think that that's typically a very hard thing
Speaker 1: to do. Yes, So what helped was taking myself out
Speaker 1: of isolation. I'd isolated myself because of I am a
Speaker 1: person that when I stressed and I'm overwhelmed, I draw
Speaker 1: in word and I completely isolated myself at one point
Speaker 1: from good friends and family. And so it was really
Speaker 1: kind of forcing myself out of isolation and getting therapy
Speaker 1: was one of the first things, and one of the
Speaker 1: first things my therapists said to me was, in this
Speaker 1: change in your career path, you've stripped yourself of everything
Speaker 1: that you've identified as bringing you enjoyment, and every thing
Speaker 1: that you identified as bringing you enjoyment costs money. Let's
Speaker 1: identify some ways that you can care for yourself and
Speaker 1: that you can enjoy yourself that doesn't cost a thing.
Speaker 1: And so that was the first thing that helped tremendously,
Speaker 1: and then along the way, journaling became a more frequent
Speaker 1: practice for me, and also working with a life coach
Speaker 1: and again making the commitment to therapy. When I worked
Speaker 1: with a life coach, I literally remember having a talk
Speaker 1: with my now fiance around should I do it? I
Speaker 1: really don't have the money for it, but I feel
Speaker 1: I can use this sort of support in my journey.
Speaker 1: And I ended up working with the life coach and
Speaker 1: that was groundbreaking. And so I've learned that having those
Speaker 1: resources along the way are critical and absolutely necessary for
Speaker 1: this path in terms of the boundary setting that it's
Speaker 1: something else that has been a work in progress. And
Speaker 1: so for me, it looked like removing email from my phone,
Speaker 1: so I removed email from my phone about five or
Speaker 1: six years ago, and I remember sharing that on Facebook
Speaker 1: and people were like, oh my god, what do you mean.
Speaker 1: I took off the app. I don't use the mail
Speaker 1: app on Apple anymore, so I took off that app.
Speaker 1: I don't stay logged in to Gmail on my phone.
Speaker 1: I also cut off as many notifications as possible, and
Speaker 1: I have a very firm policy around not giving people
Speaker 1: my cell phone for them to communicate with me, because
Speaker 1: that was something that I learned early on. People didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily care if it was eight am. They would text
Speaker 1: you with a legal question and they would say, it's
Speaker 1: going to be real quick, real short, at eight am
Speaker 1: on a Saturday. And so I quickly learned I needed
Speaker 1: that boundary in terms of other boundaries with clients, honoring
Speaker 1: our hours of nine to six pm, allowing my team
Speaker 1: to deal with client matters when it's within their skill
Speaker 1: set to do so, so that it creates a buffer
Speaker 1: for me and I don't have to be the one
Speaker 1: doing all of the things when it comes to the
Speaker 1: clients and all of the other work. I love that,
Speaker 1: And you know it's interesting because I'm having this conversation
Speaker 1: with you as attorney, but you're also my attorney, right,
Speaker 1: And so I love that I still feel very like
Speaker 1: taken care of and like I don't feel like I'm
Speaker 1: like ever being brushed aside, even though you have very
Speaker 1: strong boundaries in place, right, And so I think that
Speaker 1: that is just an example for people of when we
Speaker 1: are afraid to set boundaries because we're worried about go
Speaker 1: how will they take it? And you know, will I
Speaker 1: lose business? That your business is still thriving even though
Speaker 1: you have these things set in place to protect yourself.
Speaker 1: And I appreciate that coming from you first can because
Speaker 1: that was the biggest fear I felt. I equated boundaries
Speaker 1: setting with not providing good client service. And my therapist
Speaker 1: said to me, what if people receive the best version
Speaker 1: of you because you set boundaries? And I really do
Speaker 1: feel that I see that happening at play. So when
Speaker 1: I show up for my client calls, unless I'm just
Speaker 1: spent all night at the New Addition concert like I
Speaker 1: did last Thursday, then typically I'm able to show up
Speaker 1: and you're not getting like the burnt out stretch sooth
Speaker 1: in version of me because of those boundaries that have
Speaker 1: been set. Got it? Thank you for that. I love
Speaker 1: patriits that your firm operates in all of these very
Speaker 1: new spaces, which is a part of why I was
Speaker 1: attracted to joining your firm or being a client of
Speaker 1: the firm anyway. So you do a lot in stuff
Speaker 1: like art law, cannabis, businesses, new media. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about what each of these is and
Speaker 1: what drew you to like operating in these more new
Speaker 1: age kinds of spaces in the wall. Absolutely so. Artlawe
Speaker 1: is my number one love. And that is really because
Speaker 1: I realized, especially here in my hometown of Chicago, that
Speaker 1: artists were really underrepresented across the board in terms of
Speaker 1: not having lawyers, not having managers, and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: And what I learned along the way was that artists
Speaker 1: and other creatives didn't feel that lawyers would really get them.
Speaker 1: They felt that lawyers would restrict them, they would tell
Speaker 1: them all the things they couldn't do, and for them,
Speaker 1: it was just a misalignment from a values perspective. And
Speaker 1: so we really approached the law from the lens of
Speaker 1: we used the law to help nurture your creativity instead
Speaker 1: of restricting it. And to the extent we can do
Speaker 1: that legally that's what we do, and so that was
Speaker 1: really how I began with the artists. But what I
Speaker 1: realized was that I really was drawn to working with
Speaker 1: clients who were big thinkers, who were a bit against
Speaker 1: the grain in terms of how they did things in
Speaker 1: their industry, and just who had these major, like wild
Speaker 1: crazy ideas, and that really could come across from any industry.
Speaker 1: The other thing that I realized was that I might
Speaker 1: start with a client who is an artist on year
Speaker 1: one of our work together, and then by year four
Speaker 1: their chef. And that has happened because typically people who
Speaker 1: are creatives are moving in and out of disciplines. And
Speaker 1: so while art is my number one love because I
Speaker 1: see the need there, I also see the value from
Speaker 1: an economics perspective, because one of the things that I
Speaker 1: will always think about was if more artists knew about
Speaker 1: how to protect their intellectual property, I could help them
Speaker 1: increase the value of their art by protecting it more,
Speaker 1: which ultimately would help improve their position today and be
Speaker 1: the foundation for a stronger legacy. So that was how
Speaker 1: I began in art. Now with the other industries that
Speaker 1: I work in new media, at the same time, I
Speaker 1: was recognizing new media as a field. And so for
Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't know what new media is, that's anyone
Speaker 1: who is creating media outside of the traditional platform, so
Speaker 1: traditional newspaper or even blogs at this point, and so
Speaker 1: it's what we refer to as our content creators. You're
Speaker 1: creating new media across different platforms. So similarly, y'all weren't represented.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I quickly learned was
Speaker 1: that without having representation who really understood the value of
Speaker 1: your contributions, you were really in a vulnerable position. Meaning
Speaker 1: as you started to get new deals and opportunities your way,
Speaker 1: you may not know how to engage in a negotiation
Speaker 1: process or what the real value of your creative work is.
Speaker 1: And when you are engaged in this negotiation process, ultimately,
Speaker 1: each business opportunity sets the foundation for the next one,
Speaker 1: and the next one and the next one. And so
Speaker 1: I really wanted to play a key role in helping
Speaker 1: people in new media capture the value so that they
Speaker 1: can essentially earn more money and set their families up
Speaker 1: for more the other industries have come Because I am
Speaker 1: a creative myself who just happens to be a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and i'd like to learn about these new industries and
Speaker 1: then share that in the terms of rolling that out
Speaker 1: to service my clients as well. The cannabis piece you mentioned,
Speaker 1: we quickly pull it back on what we focus on
Speaker 1: with that is all of our other service areas. So
Speaker 1: if you need a trademark, if you need counsel around
Speaker 1: your business, we'll work with you on that. But in
Speaker 1: terms of the cannabis licensing here in my state, so
Speaker 1: many games were being played, particularly with minorities. We're getting
Speaker 1: through the process, which just a challenge, if not impossible,
Speaker 1: and we didn't have enough minority representation in the field,
Speaker 1: and there were attorneys who were beginning to only focus
Speaker 1: on cannabis law to help people get through the process.
Speaker 1: And because we offer other service areas, that was an
Speaker 1: area where we kind of said, let those attorneys who
Speaker 1: are only doing this and who are really figuring out
Speaker 1: how to help people move through the system and can
Speaker 1: focus on it, do that work, and then we can
Speaker 1: do the work to support them as it which would
Speaker 1: be if your client needs a trademark or needs a
Speaker 1: business setup or a partnership agreement. So as I'm listening
Speaker 1: to you talk, Patris, if I think about my own journey,
Speaker 1: like I have taken you on some wild rides, like oh,
Speaker 1: now I want to do this thing? Right? How do
Speaker 1: you stay up to date with like all of the
Speaker 1: different things that like your creatives are exploring within their businesses.
Speaker 1: There's multiple layers to it. So a friend actually said
Speaker 1: to me the other day, she said, you couldn't do
Speaker 1: what you do if you weren't genuinely interested in the culture,
Speaker 1: if you weren't genuinely interested in creatives. Because so much
Speaker 1: of my learning and my team's learning comes from us
Speaker 1: being in the loop of what's on trend and what's
Speaker 1: new and developing, and that's something that we just enjoy
Speaker 1: to do. So just by virtue of that being interest,
Speaker 1: we are reading up on the newest licensing deals or
Speaker 1: what deal Tyler period is considering right now. We're reading
Speaker 1: up on those things because that's our version of pop culture.
Speaker 1: And then professionally, I have always invested in developing out
Speaker 1: our research databases. So for anyone who is considering a
Speaker 1: path in law, even if you're branching out on your own,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, one of the most important investments you
Speaker 1: can make is in your research skills and development. And
Speaker 1: so from early on, we were spending a significant amount
Speaker 1: of money making sure I have the access to the
Speaker 1: latest research. If I'm offering a clients an opportunity to
Speaker 1: work with me on negotiating their licensing deals, that means
Speaker 1: that I need to know the trends in the licensing industry.
Speaker 1: So I have a resource, paid resource that tells me
Speaker 1: what the trends are in each industry where the money
Speaker 1: is being spent most in licensing, and so it's really
Speaker 1: investing in those paid resources, plus keeping up with our
Speaker 1: requirement for continuing legal education, meaning we have so many
Speaker 1: hours of legal education that we have to get on
Speaker 1: a regular races. And this is not at all the
Speaker 1: topic of the conversation, but because you are so passionate
Speaker 1: about creatives, is there one piece of information that you
Speaker 1: want creatives listening to to know about, you know, like
Speaker 1: the first steps they should take in terms of protecting
Speaker 1: their creative assets. What would you say to them? I
Speaker 1: would say, this is a loaded question, doctor Joy, because
Speaker 1: how am I supposed to get one? The one is
Speaker 1: actually always engage in a negotiation process. So if you
Speaker 1: have an opportunity, and quite honestly, even if you're faced
Speaker 1: with an opportunity that starts off as unpaid. Always be
Speaker 1: negotiating is my tip, because you need to practice at it,
Speaker 1: and for people to really take you seriously and value
Speaker 1: you as a business person, they expect you to engage
Speaker 1: in some sort of negotiation process, and so when you don't,
Speaker 1: you kind of mess with how the power is distributed
Speaker 1: in that change. And so you need to level it
Speaker 1: out a bit and always engage in a negotiation process.
Speaker 1: If you don't have an attorney, there are a few
Speaker 1: really great books around that. One is Getting to Yes
Speaker 1: and that is written for our non lawyers, And so
Speaker 1: if you feel you don't know how to start the
Speaker 1: process of negotiating, you can begin to read up on
Speaker 1: your own, and then when the time is right for you,
Speaker 1: hire an attorney to support you. I appreciate you picking
Speaker 1: out of all of the things that you could have said,
Speaker 1: given us that one and a resource as a bonus.
Speaker 1: So I love that more from my conversation with Patris
Speaker 1: after the break. So one of the other things I
Speaker 1: love about Creative Genius Law is that you have a
Speaker 1: team of all black women supporting you in the firm.
Speaker 1: Have you gotten any feedback about needing to diversify your firm,
Speaker 1: and if so, how have you handled that feedback. So,
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten any feedback, and I do want to
Speaker 1: shout out we have a few team members that are
Speaker 1: more back office for us, and so you don't see them.
Speaker 1: They are not black women. They are women. And so
Speaker 1: we have maintained our commitment to making sure that we
Speaker 1: create an opportunity that is attractive for women, because, honestly,
Speaker 1: in law starts there so many of the firms run
Speaker 1: their operations in a way where it's not suited for
Speaker 1: women who want to have families, or it makes it
Speaker 1: really difficult, it's not suited for women who maybe have
Speaker 1: multiple interests. And so I think because we've prioritized those
Speaker 1: things in our firm culture, then it has made it
Speaker 1: an attractive place for women. And I have certainly prioritized
Speaker 1: black women and women in general. I've never gotten feedback
Speaker 1: that I need to diversify, and I do expect it
Speaker 1: at one point, but my commitment is to making sure
Speaker 1: that we have a safe place to work in the
Speaker 1: legal and there and some of the feedback that I
Speaker 1: would get early on when people started seeing my face
Speaker 1: associated with Creative Genius Law from aspiring lawyers was that
Speaker 1: they wanted more, like more places like Creative Genius Law.
Speaker 1: I get so many, so much interest from people who
Speaker 1: want to work with us, and we can't hire everyone,
Speaker 1: and so I think there's a need for more firms
Speaker 1: who prioritize black women as well. So can you say
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you have been able to
Speaker 1: create a company culture that is focused on women being
Speaker 1: able to kind of embrace all of who they are,
Speaker 1: that's supportive as they go through changes in their life,
Speaker 1: because I do think sometimes it feels like there is
Speaker 1: some tension between what an ideal working environment look like
Speaker 1: versus like capitalism, right, like, let's just get the most
Speaker 1: money out of everybody. You put in the most hours,
Speaker 1: you do what you need to do, we make this money, right,
Speaker 1: How have you been able to really craft that? So
Speaker 1: the very first thing was as soon as I was
Speaker 1: in a position to roll out benefits, the very first
Speaker 1: benefit I rolled out was healthcare. And I was very
Speaker 1: intentional about making sure I didn't go with the cheapest
Speaker 1: policy or the policy that would be easy for me
Speaker 1: to secure for the team but clearly had like negative reviews.
Speaker 1: So I invested in top notch health insurance for the team.
Speaker 1: That was number one because I never wanted someone to
Speaker 1: have to make a major sacrifice to get medical care,
Speaker 1: and so that was number one for me. The second
Speaker 1: thing was we had a physical office and we still do,
Speaker 1: but we were working in office every day and we
Speaker 1: have since shifted to a work from home policy because
Speaker 1: of COVID. And when we were in office, I always
Speaker 1: looked for places that offered as many amenities as possible
Speaker 1: because I wanted people to look forward to coming to
Speaker 1: work and feel care for at work. So our last
Speaker 1: office had put out breakfast every day, they did monthly massages,
Speaker 1: monthly manicures, and so those were things that paid a
Speaker 1: little more for. But my team certainly enjoyed coming to
Speaker 1: work and they look forward to being able to have
Speaker 1: that reprieve. We have workout space and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: And then I very much encourage work life balance to
Speaker 1: the extent that it can exist. So we do have
Speaker 1: a kind of a flexible work policy. To be honest,
Speaker 1: I don't really care when people start their work day.
Speaker 1: I just want the work done, and so the team
Speaker 1: is able to really manage other components of their life
Speaker 1: with their work. At Creative Genius Law. We've gifted team
Speaker 1: members with subscriptions to meditation apps and things of that
Speaker 1: nature to help support them having balance outside of work
Speaker 1: as well. I love that. I feel like I am
Speaker 1: following in your footsteps in my dream company culture to
Speaker 1: create some of those same things. I appreciate you sharing
Speaker 1: that with this. So we've been talking a little bit
Speaker 1: about media and media representation. What are some common depictions
Speaker 1: of lawyers that you see on television and how accurate
Speaker 1: are inaccurate are they from reality? The biggest common depiction
Speaker 1: is just how dramatic things get right. And one of
Speaker 1: my favorite legal dramas is A Good Wife. You know,
Speaker 1: if you were watching Like a Good Wife or any
Speaker 1: of these legal dramas, just seeing the foolery that takes
Speaker 1: place in the courtroom and the drama attached to it.
Speaker 1: And I think that is just a common misconception. Usually
Speaker 1: when you are even engaging in a negotiation process on
Speaker 1: behalf of a client, it's not going to benefit you
Speaker 1: to pull out all of the dramatics, and so it
Speaker 1: is a very specific skill set and usually drama is
Speaker 1: going to frustrate the process for everyone. So I would
Speaker 1: say that's a common misconception. Another common misconception is that lawyers,
Speaker 1: I feel, are presented on TV often as like dark.
Speaker 1: Used to have a favorite legal dramma with Glenn Close
Speaker 1: and at her law firms, she'd brought in a young associate,
Speaker 1: And once we figure out the name of the show,
Speaker 1: we probably will charge you all with watching a few episodes.
Speaker 1: But the lawyers were just presented as like dark and twisted,
Speaker 1: and they were doing all of the illegal things behind
Speaker 1: closed doors. And I feel like that's also a theme
Speaker 1: that just plays out, like just the darkness and the
Speaker 1: twisted nature of it all, and that is not the case,
Speaker 1: Like lawyers have ethical guidelines that we have to abide by,
Speaker 1: and most lawyers want to do the right theme because
Speaker 1: we don't want our license taken from us. And so
Speaker 1: that's another one. The show is called Damages, thank you,
Speaker 1: oh my God, that I might watch a few episodes
Speaker 1: that that was so good. I remember that because that
Speaker 1: was like my nursing break, and when I had my
Speaker 1: first little one, I would like put on an episode
Speaker 1: of Damages in pump So I remember that, remember that
Speaker 1: show very very finely. I agree with you. It definitely
Speaker 1: feels like media representations of lawyers often feel like they
Speaker 1: are not ethical, right, and so I think that that
Speaker 1: can leave people feeling like that lawyers are largely like
Speaker 1: ambulance chasers, or like they will do anything to kind
Speaker 1: of win the case, when that really is not the truth.
Speaker 1: It's not the truth, And that doesn't mean that they're
Speaker 1: not bad apples in the bunch. Just like with every industry,
Speaker 1: you do have people who are not doing the right
Speaker 1: thing and who may take advantage of situations. And so
Speaker 1: I would say, as a potential clients of any law firm,
Speaker 1: you've got to do your due diligence and a gut check.
Speaker 1: It's very important to do your own gut check to
Speaker 1: make sure that you are comfortable with the person that
Speaker 1: you're working for. But most lawyers really just want to
Speaker 1: help our clients. Can you give us any other green
Speaker 1: flags we should be looking for in terms of vetting
Speaker 1: an attorney we're considering working with. So I would say
Speaker 1: there are a ton of good lawyers out there, and
Speaker 1: so what you want to get a feel for is
Speaker 1: you want to be clear on what values and what
Speaker 1: characteristics are important to you beyond someone being a good lawyer.
Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is do you want
Speaker 1: a lawyer who has routinely worked with people in your
Speaker 1: particular industry. Someone else outside of your industry may be
Speaker 1: able to provide good legal services to you, but there
Speaker 1: are things that someone who is like need even to
Speaker 1: your industry, is going to be able to pick up.
Speaker 1: So what is their track record in your particular industry?
Speaker 1: Do you get a feel for the fact that the
Speaker 1: lawyer sees you as a peer. So, for example, our
Speaker 1: team's approach is that we are collaborators with our clients.
Speaker 1: We advise you on what to do, but we don't
Speaker 1: make the decisions for you. If you tell me that
Speaker 1: you're not aligned with a particular recommendation, we are going
Speaker 1: to explore other options for you until we can't anymore.
Speaker 1: And so, is it a law firm or a lawyer
Speaker 1: who's willing to collaborate with you and not just tell
Speaker 1: you what to do? And do they actually listen a
Speaker 1: lot of times when you are reaching out to a
Speaker 1: law firm, you may not actually talk to the lawyer initially,
Speaker 1: you may talk to someone else on the staff, but
Speaker 1: those same values should trickle down to the staff. So
Speaker 1: are they taking the time to hear you out and
Speaker 1: listen to your specific needs. So I would say, if
Speaker 1: you have those green flags, along with the fact that
Speaker 1: you have some proofs that they're probably a good lawyer,
Speaker 1: then that probably is enough to at least deepen your
Speaker 1: engagement with them. Thank you. I think that that would
Speaker 1: be very helpful for people who are considering finding legal representation.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how much you are in these
Speaker 1: TikTok streets, Patrese, but there was are you yeah? I
Speaker 1: am okay? All right. So there was a recent video
Speaker 1: that went viral of a black woman attorney who resigned
Speaker 1: from her role at a big law firm because the
Speaker 1: firm told her she could no longer make money online
Speaker 1: through paid partnerships and that her work online was a
Speaker 1: clear violation of outside work activities. Are moonlighting? Can you
Speaker 1: say a little bit about what this means, like, what
Speaker 1: was the concern there? That's huge and I actually did
Speaker 1: not see that, So that tells me my AGORITHM, my algorithm,
Speaker 1: and TikTok is focused on other things which we won't mention.
Speaker 1: But that's huge. So, usually when you are working with
Speaker 1: a large firm, in particular some midsized firms and some
Speaker 1: small firms, depending on the owner, you're going to have
Speaker 1: an outside work restriction, meaning you can't work with clients
Speaker 1: on the side, and that is because they don't want
Speaker 1: you essentially competing for the firm's business. The firm is
Speaker 1: investing in your growth and development and they want their
Speaker 1: investment to be used for their benefit. Now we have
Speaker 1: to keep in mind that and when it comes to
Speaker 1: being a creator content creator, that this is still consider
Speaker 1: a new developing industry. Historically, law firms, while they wanted
Speaker 1: their attorneys to develop their own kind of personal reputation
Speaker 1: because that would ultimately help bring business into the firm,
Speaker 1: there were parameters around it. So, for instance, the law
Speaker 1: firm was managing who did your professional headshots and things
Speaker 1: of that nature. There was a team that was probably
Speaker 1: putting the final stamp on your professional bio because any
Speaker 1: development of your personal brand again is seen as a
Speaker 1: way to help benefit the firm, because the better your
Speaker 1: personal brand is, the more likely you are to bring
Speaker 1: business into the firm. So with this scenario, I would
Speaker 1: say that the firm has probably not had to deal
Speaker 1: with this a lot in their practice. They've dealt with
Speaker 1: other types of outside business, but not this. Also, the
Speaker 1: firm would probably see it as creating a liability issue,
Speaker 1: Meaning if she's creating content and giving misinformation or even
Speaker 1: voicing a perspective on something that is completely different from
Speaker 1: the firm's values, then the firm would see that as
Speaker 1: a liability issue, and now they're looking at managing the
Speaker 1: risk of it. And so for them, managing the risk
Speaker 1: is saying you can't do this anymore. I think it's
Speaker 1: probably a tough heel to climb, but I would seek
Speaker 1: out my internal advocates at the law firm, so the
Speaker 1: mentor relationships that I've developed, get their insight on a
Speaker 1: few things, and I probably would really dig into the
Speaker 1: firm policy to get real clear around does it actually
Speaker 1: say that I can't do this or are you guys
Speaker 1: making this up as you go along because you've never
Speaker 1: had to deal with it. And if you're making it
Speaker 1: up as you go along, let me help you craft
Speaker 1: this policy in a way that doesn't restrict me from
Speaker 1: pursuing work that really shouldn't hurt the firm in the
Speaker 1: first place. So I would really kind of be a
Speaker 1: little bit of a renegade in that situation and use
Speaker 1: it as an opportunity to position myself to help the
Speaker 1: firm draft a new policy that was more equitable around
Speaker 1: those opportunities. More from my conversation with Patris after the break,
Speaker 1: you know you have already given us such a great
Speaker 1: example of the culture you're trying to set. You mentioned
Speaker 1: that you realize that a lot of people on your
Speaker 1: team have lots of different interests, and so I'm guessing
Speaker 1: this could be something that comes up for you. So
Speaker 1: how can multi talented, multi interested black women in the
Speaker 1: legal space negotiate around some of these things, maybe still
Speaker 1: wanting to work in the legal firm, but maybe creating
Speaker 1: content that has nothing to do with law. So in
Speaker 1: this particular case, like it was beauty content, it wasn't
Speaker 1: anything law related. So what kinds of things can they
Speaker 1: do to kind of be able to embrace all of
Speaker 1: their passions. I would say it starts with a commitment
Speaker 1: not to ignore those other passions, because I feel that
Speaker 1: there could be an inclination to think, oh, well, I
Speaker 1: should only focus on lawyering, or I can do that later.
Speaker 1: So I think, really being honest about the fact that
Speaker 1: this is something that's important to you, then you can
Speaker 1: do it. And your job is then to figure out
Speaker 1: what the path there is. I miss that this was
Speaker 1: beauty content. So I would absolutely be a renegade in
Speaker 1: that scenario and push it back with the firm. But
Speaker 1: what I would say is, if you are employed somewhere else,
Speaker 1: I'm a fan of seeking out those internal advocates, talking
Speaker 1: to them about what you want to do. And I'm
Speaker 1: not a fan of hiding just because in this thing
Speaker 1: an age, people are going to find you, and so
Speaker 1: it's better just to be transparent and then just do it.
Speaker 1: And so I and I know that may sound like
Speaker 1: oversimplifying it, but if I think back to my job
Speaker 1: before Creative and saw them when I was at for
Speaker 1: five years, I started a food truck and art festival
Speaker 1: while I was at that job, and that festival ran
Speaker 1: for three years and it was pretty big. And I
Speaker 1: also was a lifestyle writer and I had a blog,
Speaker 1: so I did have things outside of work. But the
Speaker 1: key was that I invited my bosses to my arch
Speaker 1: or food truck festival, and they came and they told
Speaker 1: their kids. And so I did have a scenario where
Speaker 1: at one point someone came forward because they saw something
Speaker 1: posted about one of my outside endeavors. They came forward
Speaker 1: in fact with the whole packet and handed it to
Speaker 1: my boss and said, I don't know if you know
Speaker 1: that this is what Patrise has going on outside of work.
Speaker 1: And they did it because they were someone who reported
Speaker 1: to me, and they got angry with some feedback that
Speaker 1: I had to give them. When they did that, my
Speaker 1: boss said, we know, we've went to the event. It
Speaker 1: was fantastic. You should come next time. She's doing her job.
Speaker 1: She hasn't done anything wrong. So I think transparency is
Speaker 1: key and honoring your own desires around what you want
Speaker 1: to do and create. And then the other thing is
Speaker 1: if you're worried about your capacity in terms of time.
Speaker 1: I've always treated my personal interests as almost like a
Speaker 1: part time job, and so for instance, I have said
Speaker 1: I'll dedicate five hours a week or five to ten
Speaker 1: hours a week to this other thing that I want
Speaker 1: to do because I know that that feeds me. And
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing the same thing right now, even though I
Speaker 1: run my own firm. I had a realization a few weeks,
Speaker 1: a few months ago actually, that I really wanted to
Speaker 1: get back to creating content. I've always been a writer.
Speaker 1: I've always put out consent and it's slowed down because
Speaker 1: I was running my firm, but that is my creative outlet,
Speaker 1: and so now Saturdays is when I'm making it a
Speaker 1: content day and just making it fun for me and
Speaker 1: still having that exploration and enjoy outside of the work.
Speaker 1: So that's what I've done, and that's what I recommend.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. So you've already given us a
Speaker 1: couple of things that you do to take care of
Speaker 1: your mental health. But a lot of what we hear
Speaker 1: about being a lawyer's how stressful it is. So what
Speaker 1: other kinds of things do you do? You talked about therapy,
Speaker 1: life coach, you know, taking breaks. What other kinds of
Speaker 1: things do you do to really take care of your
Speaker 1: mental health? So I have gotten back into reading fiction.
Speaker 1: I've always been an avid reader, but about five years
Speaker 1: ago I realized everything I was reading was personal development
Speaker 1: or business because I wanted to be a great law
Speaker 1: firm owner. But also that didn't give my brain a
Speaker 1: chance to rest. And I decided that I would put
Speaker 1: all of that down and really prioritize just reading fiction.
Speaker 1: And reading fiction for me has been one of the
Speaker 1: best outlets ever because I find that my brain starts
Speaker 1: to think in different ways, and I'm unlocking my creativity
Speaker 1: more and I'm able to just like truly escape into
Speaker 1: a good novel where even like with having the TV on,
Speaker 1: it's not fully an escape because I still might have
Speaker 1: my phone in my hand or other things. So fiction
Speaker 1: for me has been an outstanding outlet. I'm not huge
Speaker 1: on working out. I'm working on it, but trying to
Speaker 1: build more physical activity into my routine. I have found that, like,
Speaker 1: if I get stressed in the middle of a work day,
Speaker 1: just to put everything down, and so I will put
Speaker 1: everything down. I have a book that has like writing prompts,
Speaker 1: and so I'll just flip to a page and it's
Speaker 1: like in your wildest dreams, if you were able to
Speaker 1: travel anywhere in the world, tell us five places you
Speaker 1: would travel. And so I'll just do little exercises like that,
Speaker 1: and I find that it really helped censor me. And
Speaker 1: I've really more recently embraced gaming as a way of
Speaker 1: just having an outlet, and so for me, it could
Speaker 1: be video gaming, but I've gotten into puzzles and so
Speaker 1: I just have that stuff loaded on my iPad. My
Speaker 1: sister and I both ended a stressful work week and
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, let's play a game really quick. My
Speaker 1: sisters in Georgia and so we were able to do
Speaker 1: that virtually. So just infusing a little more fun into
Speaker 1: my life has been a huge way that I've dealt
Speaker 1: with stress and overwhelm. And I'm always out with the girls,
Speaker 1: and in my fiance, we're always out, so there's that,
Speaker 1: but just the fun that I can have when no
Speaker 1: one else is around, making sure I'm intentional around that.
Speaker 1: As an outlet, I always love seeing your outings because
Speaker 1: I love to see that, you know, the people that
Speaker 1: are all the team are also taking good care of themselves,
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you sharing that. So just around five
Speaker 1: percent of lawyers or black, So can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about, like what kinds of things maybe you've
Speaker 1: done to create community for yourself or others, And are
Speaker 1: there any organizations that you feel like are doing a
Speaker 1: really great job with that four black lawyers. So creating
Speaker 1: community for me has different at different phases, and it
Speaker 1: is one of the most important things I believe for
Speaker 1: a black lawyer. So I'm glad that you asked a
Speaker 1: question early on. For me, it looked like identifying potential
Speaker 1: mentors or connecting with lawyers to be honest that I
Speaker 1: knew I could learn from. And so early on I
Speaker 1: had a mentor who was a season to entertainment attorney
Speaker 1: here in Chicago. I had the mentor who had previously
Speaker 1: worked for his law firm. And then I was able
Speaker 1: to find a black woman attorney to serve as a mentors. Now,
Speaker 1: she's like, stop calling me that, because we're good friends.
Speaker 1: This was a long time ago. She's like, you mentor me.
Speaker 1: So my community at that time was three mentors, and
Speaker 1: they were critical in helping me develop as a better
Speaker 1: attorney but also a better business owner. For a long time,
Speaker 1: I didn't have community after that point because I had
Speaker 1: the three mentors and I just didn't have the time
Speaker 1: to get out to various mixers and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: And it's actually something that I regret. My head was
Speaker 1: in the books, just trying to build this thing, and
Speaker 1: I just didn't have the time. It's what I saw.
Speaker 1: And so if I can give anyone advice, it would
Speaker 1: be to just carve out a little bit of time
Speaker 1: to go to the mixers and do that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: because those relationships are going to be valuable for just
Speaker 1: maintaining to be honest, and so what community has evolved
Speaker 1: into for me has been really intentional about when I'm
Speaker 1: in a room and I see specifically rooms where I'm
Speaker 1: getting my own training, so legal education. Usually you're not
Speaker 1: going to have that many black attorneys in the room.
Speaker 1: Because of what doctor Joy shared, I'm very intentional around
Speaker 1: there is a black woman on the other side of
Speaker 1: the room, I'm going to have a conversation with her
Speaker 1: before this day is over. And so I have picked
Speaker 1: up a number of relationships that are so incredibly special
Speaker 1: to me with other black women lawyers, in particular because
Speaker 1: we were intentional about making sure that we connected in
Speaker 1: the room. And so I still am not going to
Speaker 1: like the big conferences or mixers. I'm an introvert and
Speaker 1: so it is much more comfortable for me to connect
Speaker 1: one on one with people. And so I've still not
Speaker 1: done that thing, but I found a way to develop
Speaker 1: the community in a way that it is suited for me.
Speaker 1: In terms of organizations to connect with. Most states have
Speaker 1: a version of Black Women Lawyers Association, and I can
Speaker 1: speak for the one here in Chicago. They do outstanding work.
Speaker 1: There are women from different facets of the legal industry,
Speaker 1: and so I think Black Women Lawyers Association would be fantastic.
Speaker 1: And then in Chicago we have the Cook County Bar Association,
Speaker 1: which is the oldest black bar association in the country.
Speaker 1: And so I would say, if you're in Chicago, that
Speaker 1: definitely is an option, but if you're not, you do
Speaker 1: probably at least if you're in a metro city, have
Speaker 1: a Black Lawyers bar association connect with them. And these lawyers,
Speaker 1: whether they are your peers, younger than you or older
Speaker 1: than you, they are all going to be so valuable
Speaker 1: to your journey. And the last thing I'll add is
Speaker 1: don't underestimate the value in kind of reaching back and
Speaker 1: lifting people up as you go along. So one thing
Speaker 1: that has been a huge commitment for me has been
Speaker 1: whenever a black law student or a young black woman
Speaker 1: attorney in particular, has reached out to me and asked
Speaker 1: for a few moments of my time, I always give it,
Speaker 1: because when I was at that stage, I actually had
Speaker 1: a very hard time with finding lawyers who were willing
Speaker 1: to kind of give back in that way. And it's
Speaker 1: probably because we're so stressed, and I feel in order
Speaker 1: to help improve the industry overall, to help support black
Speaker 1: women as they're trying to find their way in the industry.
Speaker 1: Just take five minutes if people reach out and have
Speaker 1: a conversation with them about it and let them know
Speaker 1: that you have an open door policy. They are not
Speaker 1: going to in most instances abuse the open door policy,
Speaker 1: but the nuggets that you're able to give them are
Speaker 1: going to stick with them through the whole career. And
Speaker 1: so people who have been the law student or the
Speaker 1: young person reaching out to me, there has been a
Speaker 1: situation where or multiple situations where they have reached certain
Speaker 1: points in their career and they're now saying, hey, Patrise,
Speaker 1: can I bring you in on this particular deal or
Speaker 1: this particular opportunity. And so while I served as a
Speaker 1: mentor for them in some capacity, that comes back around
Speaker 1: because now they're in opportunities where they're wanting to bring
Speaker 1: me in as kind of like a senior attorney on
Speaker 1: an opportunity. I love that such actionable steps for people
Speaker 1: to really take the kind of you know, continue to
Speaker 1: develop themselves and their community around them. So I appreciate
Speaker 1: you sharing that this has been such great information for treats.
Speaker 1: I know that the community is really going to love
Speaker 1: everything that you shared here. Today. Can you share your
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles for people
Speaker 1: who want to stay connected with you. Sure. We can
Speaker 1: be found at Creative Genius Law dot com and we
Speaker 1: are on Instagram at Creative Genius Law, and I'm on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Creative Underscore eesq perfect. We'll be sure to
Speaker 1: include all of that in the show notes. Thank you
Speaker 1: for spending some time with us today, Patrese. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Patrese was able to share her expertise
Speaker 1: with us today. To learn more about her or her work,
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
Speaker 1: slash Session three h one, and be sure to text
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and tell them to
Speaker 1: check out the episode. Award season continues, y'all, and the
Speaker 1: podcast has again been nominated for a Webby Award for
Speaker 1: Best Health, Wellness and Lifestyle Podcast. The last time I checked,
Speaker 1: we were in first place, So if you can take
Speaker 1: a moment to keep us there, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: You can vote at vote dot Webby Awards dot com.
Speaker 1: The link is also in the show notes. If you're
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, check out our
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com slash directory
Speaker 1: and if you want to continue digging into this topic
Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on
Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our
Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.
Speaker 1: You can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA. Lucas and
Speaker 1: Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all for
Speaker 1: real soon Take it care