Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the Very Unprofessional podcast, whereby I your unqualified guide talk
Speaker 1: through some of the big changes and transitions about twenties
Speaker 1: and what they mean for our psychology. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: a new week on the podcast. I hope it's been
Speaker 1: a fabulous time for all those listening. It's a very
Speaker 1: special episode, yes, because it's part two of my Let's
Speaker 1: Get Friendly segment and I have none other than the
Speaker 1: amazing Phoebe with me on the show. I've got the
Speaker 1: gig giggles. I'm excited. I'm really excited for thanks having me. Yeah, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure. Honestly, Phoebe was one of the first
Speaker 1: people I think I told about doing this. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was AMZ exams and oh you were like, instead of studying,
Speaker 1: you were creating the artwork for it, and I was like, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: o Jemma, and also you were a huge spiration behind
Speaker 1: it as well. No, because we would have all these
Speaker 1: conversations about sadness. Sadness firstly busts of that, but also
Speaker 1: just like really cool psychological concepts when we used to
Speaker 1: study it, the themes building together. To be fair, though,
Speaker 1: I have zero knowledge about psychology, like at all, and
Speaker 1: so it'd be me being like, yeah, maybe a bit,
Speaker 1: and You're like, and it's because of this, and I'd
Speaker 1: be like what she was like a case study for me.
Speaker 1: I was doing, like I hate Decision one patient zero.
Speaker 1: I was doing like abnormal psychology and like social psychology
Speaker 1: at the time, and I was like saying, I'm abnormal.
Speaker 1: Don't crack that with me. Okay, we need to We're
Speaker 1: already on the tangents. So yeah, I thought i'd invite
Speaker 1: Phoebe on because she has been such a huge motivator
Speaker 1: and a real gem of the past year. Um do
Speaker 1: you want to tell them how we met? How did
Speaker 1: we meet? Um? Yeah, say, well we met it was
Speaker 1: a mutual friend. Yeah, we met for a mutual friend.
Speaker 1: And I think you know, when you meet those sort
Speaker 1: of people that you have um A very like, you
Speaker 1: just know that you're on the same page. You just
Speaker 1: know that your lives are heading in similar directions. You
Speaker 1: just know that you've got a similar worldview, you've got
Speaker 1: a similar perspective. And yeah, it was just really refreshing
Speaker 1: to meet Gemma at that time and time of my life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it genuinely was. And it start off. We've gone alose
Speaker 1: little study dates, Yeah, we would. And we have always
Speaker 1: talk about how the reason we get along really similar,
Speaker 1: really well is because we were raised the same, very
Speaker 1: similar values. Our moms are very similar people. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know about our dads, but I reckon that maybe
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, that's something we can talk about,
Speaker 1: attachment style, get into it. But I remember the first
Speaker 1: time I met I remember I met you on FaceTime.
Speaker 1: M hmmm, oh yes, I remember this, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: was like I was in a pretty I didn't have
Speaker 1: many people that I really loved hanging out with. And
Speaker 1: then I met you on your twenty first birthday. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, my twenty first birthday. I'm nearly twenty two,
Speaker 1: actually like a week and a bit, so we've basically
Speaker 1: been we've known each other for a year now. That's
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Yeah, crazy, And I remember meeting you on
Speaker 1: your birthday and I was in a rotten fucking mood.
Speaker 1: I think my ex boyfriend had done something kissed me off. Um.
Speaker 1: But then the next time we met, I was like,
Speaker 1: it was like I met my like a soulmate, my
Speaker 1: twin flame stuff, and I was like i'n to get along.
Speaker 1: It was. It was very like and I remember what.
Speaker 1: Every time I'd see you, I'd be like, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna be friends. Yeah, yeah, let's let's make this friendship happened. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like, Um, I have this thing where I'd like,
Speaker 1: I'll meet people and I'm just like them, I like
Speaker 1: pick them, and I'm like, I feel so special. It's
Speaker 1: like the Bachelorette. You've like, give me a rose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I give you a bunch of roses if I could
Speaker 1: afford it, but I can't. So yeah, I thought we'd
Speaker 1: get one here today just to talk about what's been
Speaker 1: going on. You have so many valuable lessons um from
Speaker 1: your twenties. Yeah, twenty two two years. I know, it's
Speaker 1: so exciting years experience. UM, and we kind of bond
Speaker 1: over a lot of different highs and lows, highs and lows,
Speaker 1: and those are the best people I think to talk
Speaker 1: to because then you know, you can actually really share
Speaker 1: perspectives and we get pretty deep into it. Love tiktoks.
Speaker 1: I do love my tiktoks. So a bit of an issue.
Speaker 1: Craco for the wine, Yes, have a glass with us
Speaker 1: if you got a bottle of wine. It's after three pm.
Speaker 1: Maybe treat yourself. Treat yourself. Oh we can hear it?
Speaker 1: Can you hear that? Everyone on the podcast you're listening,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. Really embarrassing. I once had
Speaker 1: to host a what was it it was? I think
Speaker 1: it was Valetta for smaller Okay, Valeta for my college,
Speaker 1: and um, they asked me to host like the DEA
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, can like in the breaks between
Speaker 1: like awards, can you do something else? Like? Sure? What
Speaker 1: I did ASMR in front of my entire college? Were
Speaker 1: you drunk? Partially? Was not actually that drunk? And so
Speaker 1: I did ASMR Like, hey guys, welcome to the college hall.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I just stocks myself. No, I don't
Speaker 1: live there anymore. You don't live you don't love it,
Speaker 1: But you did? You did? But I did? And I
Speaker 1: did ASMR in front of everyone. Oh my god. So phoebe, Um,
Speaker 1: we have hips of topies we want to talk about. Um,
Speaker 1: you were in SR. Oh cheers of chars. You're in
Speaker 1: SR when we first met, and I was the faithful
Speaker 1: year of twenty twenty to be an SR. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: was your twenty twenty? Um? I would say it was interesting.
Speaker 1: It was definitely an interesting year. Ended up starting off
Speaker 1: the year. I think you had Kate on the podcast
Speaker 1: two episodes ago, a few episodes ago, and she said, like,
Speaker 1: started off like, yeah, she's an SA cool going forward,
Speaker 1: and then obviously COVID hit and it screwed everyone over
Speaker 1: just a little bit um. End up going home. My
Speaker 1: mum became a celebrity. That was very odd. And then
Speaker 1: can we say her name? No, we probably shouldn't. I
Speaker 1: mean you can. My last name is so common you
Speaker 1: can probably google her, but look up essay chief health minister. No, no,
Speaker 1: she's not politician, chief health offical officer. Sorry yea, And
Speaker 1: so she just got It was very weird time for me,
Speaker 1: just because it was like everyone was like, I'm at
Speaker 1: home with my family for like six months, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm home and my family are working twenty
Speaker 1: four seven and not just working like they are like
Speaker 1: the most essential workers in South Australia. Yeah, so that
Speaker 1: was kind of fun. But then second half of the
Speaker 1: year was suddenly you come back from like I lived
Speaker 1: with my grandma when COVID was on and came back
Speaker 1: and it was like, oh my god, being plunged back
Speaker 1: into college and I just got a very over college, Yeah,
Speaker 1: very quickly. Yeah, and you had a lot of it
Speaker 1: was hard for you because you were you were twenty
Speaker 1: one years old dealing with pastoral concerns of people who
Speaker 1: were your same age, Like how did you find that?
Speaker 1: That's a huge, you know, mental health experience in itself.
Speaker 1: I think it's hard enough being a SR without a
Speaker 1: COVID year happening, because that definitely added I think a
Speaker 1: lot of like in a college situation, we weren't like
Speaker 1: there was a lot of restrictions. We were placed into
Speaker 1: positions where as leaders of the college, we had to
Speaker 1: enforce rules, like we were this sort of like police
Speaker 1: officer role, and that was very unusual. And you were
Speaker 1: not paid for that, not paid for it, I mean
Speaker 1: we like didn't pay rent, but it was still debsidering
Speaker 1: the work you were doing. Yeah. Yeah, I remember midem
Speaker 1: SEM two last year, I just was like I've lost it.
Speaker 1: I've lost it completely. But then, to be fair, I
Speaker 1: am extremely dramatic and think that my because I care.
Speaker 1: I'm a nerve, I care about my grades a lot,
Speaker 1: and I thought that the world was ending because of
Speaker 1: SR and I didn't have time to study as much
Speaker 1: as normal, and it was all fine. I worked out
Speaker 1: in the end, because everything always does work out in
Speaker 1: the end. And Phoebe is one of these people that
Speaker 1: like you just you're you're you're almost downgrade your experiences
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, I got hit by a bus,
Speaker 1: but like I only broke my legs. I still have
Speaker 1: a finger. It's fine. So let me just clear up.
Speaker 1: You did have a fucked year, like you're dealing with
Speaker 1: like many many crises and your own kind of stuff
Speaker 1: at the same time, and that's what we became friends.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean see positive stuff came out of it.
Speaker 1: You were literally like a godsend for me, Like I
Speaker 1: hadn't really consent for me. God, we need actually flirting
Speaker 1: because it's just going to basically be a date between
Speaker 1: Deva and I, but you're just you're just like sitting
Speaker 1: at the table opposite and overhearing it all. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: It's like a first date. But like we already know
Speaker 1: each other. But I'm like asking you all these like so,
Speaker 1: how was that for your hobbies? It's your favorite color? Oh,
Speaker 1: what's yours? It's actually green? Oh, mine's blue? Vapor with
Speaker 1: primary colors. It's green a primary color. No, no, green's not.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, you're not allowed to come into the club.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then how would you be happy talking
Speaker 1: about how the year ended? In what way? In what way? Um? Romantically? Okay,
Speaker 1: because I feel like we need to talk about situation. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: We've got a few things that we're going to discuss.
Speaker 1: Just to do some signposting, as you do in an essay. Um,
Speaker 1: we're just true academic feature spit where we're gonna signpost
Speaker 1: what we're going to be talking about. Um. One of
Speaker 1: those things is love life and lack thereof, or abundance
Speaker 1: there abundance thereof? When it rains a pause? Um, is
Speaker 1: it pouring for you right now? Maybe? Maybe? Um, in
Speaker 1: the sense that like I wouldn't say that I've ever
Speaker 1: really been in a proper relationship. Yes, Just do you
Speaker 1: have like any insecurity about that? Would you say or
Speaker 1: not really? Um? Or do you just not think about it?
Speaker 1: I mean I was massively judged in like the first
Speaker 1: few years of college as I think society societally, yes, socially, socially, culturally, culturally, Um,
Speaker 1: there's this sort of pressure to like you're either super
Speaker 1: promiscuous or you're a prude. Like there's no there's no
Speaker 1: clear in between. And like my dating history is just
Speaker 1: a lot of like random three month things with people,
Speaker 1: and very few of them have I had like a
Speaker 1: genuine connection with Yeah, have you? And because I feel
Speaker 1: like that, Um, that can be pretty hard. Like a
Speaker 1: lot of your friends were a long term relationships around
Speaker 1: that time and you were kind of there. Did you
Speaker 1: want more from these people or were you happy with
Speaker 1: some of them? Yes, some of them, know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was the one over, the more recent one of
Speaker 1: the offing that yeah, yeah, I left you. It's a
Speaker 1: little bit. We should talk about that, like the psychology
Speaker 1: of like rejection. Would you want to tell me about
Speaker 1: the psychology of a situationship and why they happen? Should
Speaker 1: we define a situation? Yeah? Do you want to define it?
Speaker 1: And then I'll explain. Yeah, So a situationship is you
Speaker 1: seeing someone, you're dating someone you're not. You don't have
Speaker 1: a label on it. You've spoken about it, Um, there's
Speaker 1: no label, or you might not. You might not have
Speaker 1: spoken about it. There's no label, but you do things
Speaker 1: that a serious relationship would. Oh, you guys were doing
Speaker 1: serious like stuff that was more serious than than me
Speaker 1: and I don't have COVID, Like, um, the time when
Speaker 1: you had to take him to the hospital and like
Speaker 1: call his dad. Yeah that was fun. Um Yeah, just
Speaker 1: doing things like very very like long term relationship, not
Speaker 1: just like casual seeing someone. Yeah, it's it was something more. Okay,
Speaker 1: So thanks to Phoebe for explaining what a situation ship is. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give like a brief psychological explanation. Behind
Speaker 1: you can open the chucky. It's really exciting. Guys. It's
Speaker 1: some corn flake chocolate. Only you would buy that because
Speaker 1: cereals the best. Yeah. So a situation ship, I think
Speaker 1: a really good way to kind of apply, like a
Speaker 1: good framework to apply is like social psychology. So naturally,
Speaker 1: when you think about our instincts as people, it's to breed,
Speaker 1: it's to survive, it's to chocolate across the room, it's
Speaker 1: to you know, improve the chances of our gene survival.
Speaker 1: But it's also to feel socially stable, socially secure and supported.
Speaker 1: But I think in the modern day as well, there
Speaker 1: is this huge pressure which comes from a more modern
Speaker 1: social kind of aspect to not settle down, to be
Speaker 1: free to be young, and it depends on your kind
Speaker 1: of Yeah, you're a perspective on dating. So I think
Speaker 1: the reason why situation ships arise is as I'm merely
Speaker 1: a cure for social loneliness. And it's the sense that
Speaker 1: like when you are with this person, you feel seen,
Speaker 1: you feel heard, you feel supported, you feel like if
Speaker 1: you're in the wild, you would have a body. And
Speaker 1: I have this great perspective that I well, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's great, but I just think that long term
Speaker 1: relationships and partnerships aren't actually natural. And I know there
Speaker 1: is like some definite studies that suggest that some people
Speaker 1: have like given it off of pseudoscience and pushing a
Speaker 1: certain perspective of certain ideology. But I think that we
Speaker 1: weren't naturally made to live eighty years with someone. You know,
Speaker 1: when relationships as a concept or partnering or coupling as
Speaker 1: a concept began, you know, the life expectancy was like
Speaker 1: thirty five years true. And I think, so I think
Speaker 1: you can be with somebody up into eighty like I
Speaker 1: we have. You're you're much more romantic than I am. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, my people in my family have
Speaker 1: been together for a very very long time since I're
Speaker 1: eighteen up being like uscrew you for having beautiful, loving relationships.
Speaker 1: But I think I do agree in that sense that
Speaker 1: people come into your vision just for friendships as well
Speaker 1: as relationships. But people come into your life for like
Speaker 1: brief spurts. Yeah, they come into your life for like
Speaker 1: at a time and a place, and they stay for
Speaker 1: a certain amount of time for a reason. And I've
Speaker 1: just been in the situation where a lot of people
Speaker 1: have stuck around for three months, but I've learned a
Speaker 1: lot from them. I learn a lot from those people
Speaker 1: you have, And I think that a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: the reason why we do get into those short term
Speaker 1: things is because we crave social intimacy and emotional and
Speaker 1: physical intimacy, especially when well at any age in your life,
Speaker 1: at any age. And I think as well, because I
Speaker 1: think Gemma and I think are very similar on the
Speaker 1: fact that we've similar sort of life goals and what
Speaker 1: we want for ourselves and our career and what we
Speaker 1: want to do. And I know that like for me personally,
Speaker 1: I know, like I want to live in New Zealand,
Speaker 1: I want to move to Darwin, Like I've got these
Speaker 1: these plans and I know deep down every time I
Speaker 1: see someone that I'm like, well, I'm want to always
Speaker 1: prioritize doing what I want to do over yah, being
Speaker 1: in a long term, committed relationship, and I'm sure, great,
Speaker 1: somebody is eventually going to come in and fit into
Speaker 1: that spot. Yeah I hope so. Yeah, I hope so too.
Speaker 1: But but like I don't think, like you know, you need,
Speaker 1: the chances of that actually happening is so low. And
Speaker 1: we hear all these stories like, oh, I met my
Speaker 1: life partner when I was at UNI, my brother if
Speaker 1: you're watching, if you're listening, listening, listening, no, but extrue,
Speaker 1: we hear all these stories and like, it just doesn't
Speaker 1: happen for everyone. You know, you're also maybe just not ready.
Speaker 1: You don't know who you are at the time. I
Speaker 1: think since that situationship has ended, you have discovered so
Speaker 1: much more about yourself. Absolutely, and I know for a
Speaker 1: fact that this person would not have been able to
Speaker 1: fit setting boundaries. Let's talk about that in terms of situations.
Speaker 1: But I also want to ask, what did you learn
Speaker 1: from that experience at the start of the year, because
Speaker 1: you learn a lot. Yeah I did. I Well, I
Speaker 1: learned what it's like to really feel something like I think, um,
Speaker 1: but I learned that I I like bound I think
Speaker 1: it's the boundary setting thing. So so prior to that
Speaker 1: situation ship, I had another situation ship, like I think
Speaker 1: I was almost like six months or something. Who was
Speaker 1: this with somebody? I put the number the start of
Speaker 1: the oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah um, and I
Speaker 1: just let that carry on. I just let it just
Speaker 1: keep just keep happening. I was, oh, whatever, like eventually
Speaker 1: he'll move by me or eventually blah blah blah, um
Speaker 1: I want to date me. Um. But with this situation ship,
Speaker 1: I was very clear. I was like, right hit the
Speaker 1: three month mark, clearly liked him, clearly, told him, was like, hey,
Speaker 1: had this big chap. He was like, oh, he's a
Speaker 1: few random things that can we tell them? I mean
Speaker 1: I think we can. Parents are divorced, can't commit, can't commit,
Speaker 1: can't commit. Too many of you can't commit parents are divorce.
Speaker 1: But if but if, but if you wanted to day
Speaker 1: here date me great. So anyway, I was like, well, no,
Speaker 1: you have no people want to stay friends actually And
Speaker 1: I was like, no, you there's there's no access here.
Speaker 1: If that's like, I've got to set this boundary, and
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I have. Yeah. And also here's a
Speaker 1: big lesson that I've learned. If they want to date you,
Speaker 1: they will date you. They will, they will date you.
Speaker 1: Like there is no point forcing people making PowerPoint presentations
Speaker 1: like fucking trying to convince them and changing yourself for
Speaker 1: somebody as well, that's the biggest loss that you can
Speaker 1: kind of do. Very proud of you for setting that
Speaker 1: parents out of myself. And you did the classic You
Speaker 1: did the big social media block afterwards as well. I did.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of that, like honestly, huge fan, huge,
Speaker 1: huge fan of the old block. I mean immediately, I
Speaker 1: did do that one as a mistake. I didn't realize
Speaker 1: Facebook like delete. I love it, great idea. It was
Speaker 1: an accident because I didn't realize that when you delete,
Speaker 1: like when you block, someone unfriends them, and I didn't
Speaker 1: quite realize that. Yeah, but um, a huge fan of
Speaker 1: it because then there I have this theory that if
Speaker 1: somebody's not directly in your life, they actually don't exist. Oh,
Speaker 1: Phoebe tells me this all the time, So it's like this,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a little bit delusional. She always
Speaker 1: says to me, like whenever I'm going through stuff and
Speaker 1: you know, I call her four I am at my
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend's mum's house, like stupid. She's always like just
Speaker 1: block them, like just just stop seeing them, because then
Speaker 1: they don't exist. They genuinely don't explain that a little
Speaker 1: bit more because I feel like I don't know how
Speaker 1: to explain it. But like it's I mean, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, like what is this is gonna
Speaker 1: get sont please just sound like superficial deep like um,
Speaker 1: but nothing like what is real? You know, and if
Speaker 1: that person doesn't have access to my life, my everyday
Speaker 1: sort of emotions and feelings, like I mean, there's how
Speaker 1: many people on the planet, so many of them don't
Speaker 1: exist to me, Wow, that's actually really good because I
Speaker 1: don't know how many of the like none of these
Speaker 1: people are ever going to think of me. I'm never
Speaker 1: going to think of them. If somebody's not in my
Speaker 1: life and the day to day or the weekly or
Speaker 1: the monthly or I'm keeping up to day on social media,
Speaker 1: they don't exist in my books, They're out of your atmosphere.
Speaker 1: I actually love that explanation. I'm going to steal that
Speaker 1: so many people in the world you don't know exactly,
Speaker 1: don't exist to you. They don't well, I think, haven't
Speaker 1: come into my life yet. And you can choose to
Speaker 1: kick people out exactly. And that's where we get into
Speaker 1: this boundary discussion because I have to have one of
Speaker 1: these recently where I was just like, what do you
Speaker 1: want from me? What do you want from me? Because
Speaker 1: I'm not going to I'm just at the stage of
Speaker 1: my life where I value my and I know you're
Speaker 1: the same. We value out independence and our creativity and
Speaker 1: our own success success. I think we're very successful women. Gemma. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we are very successful. That's why I love
Speaker 1: hanging out with you because every time we talk about
Speaker 1: our goals and our dreams, you never make me feel
Speaker 1: bad for saying things that I think are areposterous. And
Speaker 1: that's creds to my mother for that, like honestly or
Speaker 1: like so when you went to letting tangent. But we'll
Speaker 1: talk about this because a big time. I think the
Speaker 1: best kinds of friendships, and I've talked about this with
Speaker 1: people on the show before, are those where every time
Speaker 1: you see them you learn more about them. They're full
Speaker 1: of surprises. Every relationship like that is beautiful, like true.
Speaker 1: And I remember this one time, you'd just come back
Speaker 1: from TenneT Creek, which is in the middle of Northern Territories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: smack bang, population three thousand, and I was just amazed
Speaker 1: because you just had this whole new perspective on your future. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then on your life. You want to move from
Speaker 1: situation if I want to talk about boundaries, but put
Speaker 1: a pin in it. We're going to talk about TenneT
Speaker 1: Creek and Phoebe's amazing philosophies and learning and lesser from that,
Speaker 1: But boundaries was. I think we both prioritize our own
Speaker 1: personal growth so much more than we did when we
Speaker 1: were younger. Oh absolutely, or even a few months ago.
Speaker 1: I think when I was younger, I valued it, but
Speaker 1: it was in the sense that it was because I
Speaker 1: thought that's like, that was how other people would like me.
Speaker 1: More like I wanted to succeed. I remember, like from
Speaker 1: high school, I was very I was a huge overachiever,
Speaker 1: but a huge perfectionist because I had this crippling anxiety
Speaker 1: of how I was perceived to other people. I had
Speaker 1: to be the best at sport, I had to have
Speaker 1: the best atar. I had to be Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I was like on the debating team and all of
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and I know I did I did.
Speaker 1: I did it all I did. I did the music,
Speaker 1: I did the horse riding, I did this ka, literally
Speaker 1: everything you could think of, because I was like, that's
Speaker 1: how people are gonna like me. And now I only
Speaker 1: do things because I'm like, actually, I enjoy these things
Speaker 1: for myself. Fuck yes, big. That's a huge thing you
Speaker 1: learn in your twenties, and I think like it's that
Speaker 1: shift from external to internal validation and you realize that
Speaker 1: your real self shouldn't be a concept of what others
Speaker 1: have of you. Absolutely, your real self should be who you. Firstly,
Speaker 1: it should be close to your actual self. And that's
Speaker 1: like a bit of psychology, like your real self should
Speaker 1: be close to your actual self and that's how you
Speaker 1: prevent like feeling disordered and disrupted and distressed. But also
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be based on what other people want of you,
Speaker 1: and that I like have this amazing spiritual healer friend
Speaker 1: in Corumbum and her name's Helena, and she's just beautiful.
Speaker 1: She's remarkable, and she always said that to me, like
Speaker 1: when I was going through hard times, the only person
Speaker 1: that gets to create your happiness is yourself. And that's
Speaker 1: a huge shift that you've definitely had in recently. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean it probably helps with other things. No more
Speaker 1: contraceptive pill and oh yeah, we need to talk about
Speaker 1: the pill. Sue. The pill sucks both of It sucked
Speaker 1: us both up royally, Like I was so sad six
Speaker 1: months ago and then now I'm beautiful and my skins
Speaker 1: beautiful as I went on it for my skincare and
Speaker 1: now my skins better. Let's let's get back on track. Boundaries.
Speaker 1: So both of us have we're not setting boundaries in
Speaker 1: its conversation, but both of us have such very, very
Speaker 1: vivid ideas of our future. If you're not going to
Speaker 1: fit in with that, what is the point of keeping
Speaker 1: you around? Yeah, exactly. And if you're not going to
Speaker 1: fit into the life that I have now, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to let you lead me on. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to let you Like. This isn't just in terms of relationships,
Speaker 1: this is anyone that comes into setting boundaries with friendships.
Speaker 1: I think it comes a point where you really have
Speaker 1: to sit back and be like, does this person with
Speaker 1: my with my ideal self, with my higher self? Actually,
Speaker 1: would they be in my life when I picture how
Speaker 1: my higher self is, Am I still going to be
Speaker 1: sleeping with that guy who like never reciprocates anything you've
Speaker 1: got to do, like a cost benefit analysis, but not
Speaker 1: for the present but also for the future. Yeah, wow,
Speaker 1: that's hard. Big Excel spreadsheet you need for that? If
Speaker 1: only I knew how to use it. So we'll teach
Speaker 1: you one day. Surely you can add no words into
Speaker 1: the shop. I had a mass test for like my
Speaker 1: agg cause like a week or so ago, and this
Speaker 1: guy made me an Excel spreadsheet so I didn't have
Speaker 1: to do the mass Oh this guy. Yeah, anyway, I
Speaker 1: know who this guy is that he's gonna listen. Well,
Speaker 1: you know who you are. But I had this recently
Speaker 1: where you know, I was feeling led on by this guy.
Speaker 1: I felt like really insecure, and I had a chat
Speaker 1: with him and I was like, Okay, what is this?
Speaker 1: What do you want for me? Is this casual? Because
Speaker 1: that's what I want, But it seems like you don't
Speaker 1: even want that, and that's not going to work with
Speaker 1: me right now. I'm not going to be sitting around
Speaker 1: waiting for you to message me. Absolutely not going to
Speaker 1: work with my life priorities. Don't have time, that's the
Speaker 1: big thing as well. I don't have time. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: working part time, ming full time. I don't have time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have so many amazing friends who I would like. Tonight,
Speaker 1: I was meant to go on a date canceled because
Speaker 1: I wanted to record it with your friends. Like, sorry
Speaker 1: if you're listening, but that's why. No, my grandma isn't
Speaker 1: in hospital. I'm drinking wine with my really good friend. Yes,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about you and we're on a date now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm dating my friends and I'm dating myself exactly, boy baby,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah hell yeah yeah. Situationships have covered it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have covered it, I think, and I think there was.
Speaker 1: There's lots of things to learn from it, but also
Speaker 1: still learning. I'm still learning. But set I think set
Speaker 1: boundaries with yourself and with other people, including your friendships.
Speaker 1: Like once a friendship as well crosses a boundary, don't
Speaker 1: look back absolutely if you like I know how I see.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you wouldn't let your friend treat you
Speaker 1: like this, don't let someone that you're romantically involved treat
Speaker 1: you like that either. If you wouldn't let your boss
Speaker 1: treat you like that, even if you want to make
Speaker 1: it even more strict for yourself, like maybe you're a
Speaker 1: bit of a pushover like I am. Yeah, Well it's
Speaker 1: hard because I'm gemma and I were both sorry'm earning chocolate. Um,
Speaker 1: we're both. We always say yes to helping people. That
Speaker 1: is our downfall. It's a huge downfall. We've gotten ourselves
Speaker 1: into a lot of trouble doing that, I think, and
Speaker 1: for giving people when we should. There's definitely people you
Speaker 1: should and it's good to have conversations with them, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, it's but worth being in a while
Speaker 1: we're doing we do too much, you do too much
Speaker 1: for other people. Yeah, and I guess this is kind
Speaker 1: of also what we want to talk about, doing the
Speaker 1: emotional labor for us. Yeah, thanks, that's smooth too. Emotional labor, Yeah,
Speaker 1: emotional labor and something especially for men, especially for men,
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that when we get back. So,
Speaker 1: I think a big pitfall a lot of women in
Speaker 1: their twenties fall into is like doing the emotional labor
Speaker 1: for men and women, but mainly men in their lives.
Speaker 1: I've had that happened to me, so many times friends
Speaker 1: lovers feels me to say that after lovers scratch that,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely, And how
Speaker 1: do you kind of see it because you brought this
Speaker 1: up with me? Yeah, well, I wouldn't say that in
Speaker 1: my teenage years. So obviously I moved to Canberra when
Speaker 1: I was eighteen. I wouldn't say that I did much
Speaker 1: emotional labor when I was in high school or anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who could know exactly, and like to preface that like
Speaker 1: I would like, obviously, I grew up with an amazing family,
Speaker 1: huge privilege to have such like a stable home life
Speaker 1: and all of that. Um, and so I never really
Speaker 1: had to do any of this sort of like emotional labor.
Speaker 1: And then coming to UNI and college. Um, I think
Speaker 1: I've always been a bit like a bit more of
Speaker 1: my cancer. That's my star sign of a bit the
Speaker 1: cancer's emotional. What else I actually don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: really follow astrology. That I only follow astrology to like
Speaker 1: tell that to economic guy as Freddie as a cancer
Speaker 1: very gentle. Yeah, well, because I just see it on
Speaker 1: tiktoks of what the cancer is. And but I only
Speaker 1: keep up to date because I like to go on
Speaker 1: like when I go on dates and I'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you study economics and like cryptocurrency. Oh, I like something
Speaker 1: similar in astrology, you know, but pieces and cancers are
Speaker 1: both water signs. Yeah, well apparently it's the water sign.
Speaker 1: Is that means you're yeah, you're wearing your neptune jumper
Speaker 1: at the moment, which is really appropriate for your water.
Speaker 1: So I do like this jumper and you're a big
Speaker 1: beach baby. I think as well, except I get some burnt,
Speaker 1: but that's okay anyway, So emotional labor um and I
Speaker 1: think what I came to UNI, and like I grew up.
Speaker 1: I've got two brothers, so I I have a lot
Speaker 1: of male friends. Pick me go out. No, I'm like,
Speaker 1: generally I just have a girl a lot of I
Speaker 1: just have a lot of male friends. Even in high school,
Speaker 1: some of my closest mates have always been guys. And
Speaker 1: I think that's I've got a brother who's really close
Speaker 1: an age to me, So makes sense, makes sense. Um,
Speaker 1: I love foodie, no, no, no jokes anyways that I
Speaker 1: have noticed that as a result, particularly when it's my
Speaker 1: male friends that are single, Um, I just somehow they
Speaker 1: don't have a girlfriend or a boyfriend to do it
Speaker 1: for them. I seem to become not a mum. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say I become a mum. I'm definitely not the
Speaker 1: mom friend. I become sort of this this person that
Speaker 1: is always going to be there to give advice and
Speaker 1: support sister. Yeah, like, well I am. I am the
Speaker 1: elder sister that makes problem. I become this sort of
Speaker 1: like person for all my guy friends, not just guys,
Speaker 1: even even female friends, to be honest, but just like
Speaker 1: and I'm just giving so much. And that was I
Speaker 1: think when we when we bonded, like Grandma last year
Speaker 1: or whatever, definitely over that sort of topic house, I
Speaker 1: am doing too much, you were doing you still do
Speaker 1: too much. And I find this as well, like this
Speaker 1: is kind of inappropriate. And if an employer ever listens
Speaker 1: to this, like, I'm sure they're probably gonna fire me.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, live a little like I used
Speaker 1: to always say, I felt like a psychologist and like
Speaker 1: a prostitute in one like I would. It was especially
Speaker 1: with guys that I was like sleeping with where I
Speaker 1: couldn't quite figure out what they wanted for me. And
Speaker 1: I remember like I would go over to their rooms
Speaker 1: and I would just spend like the whole night just
Speaker 1: like talking them through their childhood trauma, talking them through
Speaker 1: their actually and this falls into the situationship territory as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, so I'm really like this takes energy
Speaker 1: out of me. And that's a big thing to realize.
Speaker 1: When you offer someone so much of your advice, so
Speaker 1: much of your space, your time, your words, like, it
Speaker 1: really takes things away from you, and it leaves you
Speaker 1: mentally exhausted. It does, And I like, I have like
Speaker 1: incredible friendships with all these people. That's not just quickly
Speaker 1: We're not to say that, like please come to us,
Speaker 1: but also I like, I love I love caring for
Speaker 1: my friends, like I love languages. I'm acts of services.
Speaker 1: I love doing acts of service for other people, and
Speaker 1: I feel like yours is also words of affirmation. Is
Speaker 1: that it yeah, okay, words of affirmation and acts of
Speaker 1: service like, and I do genuinely enjoy doing like things
Speaker 1: for other people. But it definitely does get to a
Speaker 1: point that when you when you're you yourself are struggling,
Speaker 1: and then I mean I've definitely felt that when I've
Speaker 1: been struggling, I felt incredibly alone. You wish someone would
Speaker 1: do what you would do for them. Is that kind
Speaker 1: of feeling, because I think I'm the type of person
Speaker 1: that will hold it very deep inside and then I
Speaker 1: just lose it in my brain, in my brain, and
Speaker 1: it's usually my family that then has to cop the
Speaker 1: consequences and they're like, but but now you're telling us
Speaker 1: that all these tiny, ten little things have built up
Speaker 1: into this and I'm like, yes, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: left it all the way you lug in. That was
Speaker 1: Woud's open exactly. And that's because I think I like
Speaker 1: get you take on a lot. It's like your mum
Speaker 1: the other day when we were writing that job application
Speaker 1: for you and one of the criterias like works well
Speaker 1: under pressure, and then you told your mom and your
Speaker 1: mom was like, hell no, because my mom is the
Speaker 1: one yeah no, and she's And that's the thing, like,
Speaker 1: if you don't have a like, I really want to
Speaker 1: drill into this emotional labor thing because I feel like
Speaker 1: it is a massive concept where it's like boundaries do
Speaker 1: really because of the patriarchy. Yeah, And I feel like
Speaker 1: you end up adopting I found so many times I
Speaker 1: end up adopting a maternal role where I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: here to comfort you, I'm here to support you, I'm
Speaker 1: here to help you through everything, and I'll willingly enter
Speaker 1: that role not expecting anything back. But I think and like,
Speaker 1: deep inside, you know that they won't even give it
Speaker 1: back to you. They won't ever provide that service to you,
Speaker 1: even if you wanted it, because that's your role, that's
Speaker 1: your function. Especially as women who have their lives together,
Speaker 1: not that we have them completely together, like not at all,
Speaker 1: but women who are emotionally mature. It's like people seek
Speaker 1: you out, realize that you have that kind of your
Speaker 1: reasons something from me, and they see your weak spot.
Speaker 1: They're like, I know that if I just play the
Speaker 1: sad person in this situation, or like if I just
Speaker 1: show them even the tiniest bit of you know, the
Speaker 1: things I'm going through, their empathy bone is just going
Speaker 1: to light up and they'll just they're just knee jerk
Speaker 1: reaction is just to care for you, to take you
Speaker 1: under their wing, and it just it kind of makes
Speaker 1: me a little bit annoyed. Sometimes it makes me very annoyed.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, very annoyed. Like I'm having this situation
Speaker 1: with someone at the moment and I'm just like, what
Speaker 1: do you want from me right now? Like why am
Speaker 1: I here? And it just becomes so obvious that the
Speaker 1: only reason they talk to me is because they need
Speaker 1: me to provide them with emotional support. And it's so exhausted.
Speaker 1: It's not even just emotional support, it's it's being asked
Speaker 1: to do things like driving them somewhere click of the half,
Speaker 1: and it's and little things like that. I'm happy to
Speaker 1: do it. There was a time at college that I
Speaker 1: used to edit people's papers for them, and for free,
Speaker 1: for free, when you have your own stuff going on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you used to give too much, Phoebe. I know your
Speaker 1: heart's too big. I could have made so much bank
Speaker 1: that time year, but no, I edited people's papers. You
Speaker 1: could have had free time exactly. I actually like editing
Speaker 1: people's stuff, but I should have, you know, but what
Speaker 1: part do you like more? Do you like that you're
Speaker 1: doing something for someone? I'm like called out. I know
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to call you out, but it's like
Speaker 1: worth like really analyzing, like what kind of it is?
Speaker 1: Because there is an incentive to do it. You wouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing it if you were being forced against your will.
Speaker 1: But it's like, what kind of incentive is that? But
Speaker 1: I really do see it, and I see it with
Speaker 1: so many of my female friends, and I think it's
Speaker 1: an important disclaimer. I think I've gotten very good all
Speaker 1: the people who I would any person in my life
Speaker 1: right now would willingly drop everything and help them out,
Speaker 1: because I also know that they would do that back
Speaker 1: for me. It's not a transactional relationship, absolutely, and I
Speaker 1: think I'm in a similar boat where it's spin almost
Speaker 1: four years of too much. Now I'm like, well, if
Speaker 1: you're if you're somebody that's receiving this service, I guess
Speaker 1: from me, that's because I know you're doing return. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like important to recognize that. And it kind
Speaker 1: of leads back into our boundaries conversation how much are
Speaker 1: you going to are you willing to give to people?
Speaker 1: And how much do you want to be a yes person?
Speaker 1: Because being a yes person gets you in trouble, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, in the last six months of fun
Speaker 1: things too get Yeah, it does. But then it's like
Speaker 1: if you say yes to everything and disclaim it, it's
Speaker 1: yes to certain things. I mean in terms of career
Speaker 1: opportunities to say yes to everything, Yeah, every single opportunity
Speaker 1: to get say yes to it. In terms of doing
Speaker 1: too much for other people, sometimes it's good to say no. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we both don't say no when
Speaker 1: we really want to. Like how many times have you
Speaker 1: found that in the past couple of months where you're
Speaker 1: in a situation You're like, I really don't want to
Speaker 1: be here and here you are. Yeah, that was me
Speaker 1: last I'm not going to say that, but I've had
Speaker 1: that recently, and I think it links back to remember
Speaker 1: when one of the first things we talked about psychologically
Speaker 1: was like this high integrated and low integrated complexity. Good segue.
Speaker 1: It was a good segue, wasn't it, Because it's really
Speaker 1: I want me to explain it. Yeah, jem is going
Speaker 1: to explain it because I sometimes we'll have a conversation
Speaker 1: and I'll go, what's that thing again that you and
Speaker 1: it's this because it really applies to Phoebe in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: So okay, okay. So there's this concept and it's in psychology,
Speaker 1: and it's low integrative and high integrative complexity, and it's
Speaker 1: these ways of viewing the world, and it's often associated
Speaker 1: with things like your political views as an example, but
Speaker 1: also just your general perspective, way of applying things to
Speaker 1: the world, way of interacting with the world. So people
Speaker 1: with low integrated complexity see things as very black or white,
Speaker 1: good or bad, you know, evil or angel I don't know,
Speaker 1: very like it's very this or that. So, for example,
Speaker 1: you know, the war in Iraqa is like a really
Speaker 1: good example of this. People who supported that, you know,
Speaker 1: they saw people in Iraq as terrorists, which isn't true,
Speaker 1: but they saw them as that, and they were really
Speaker 1: able to be like, they're bad guys, we're good guys,
Speaker 1: therefore we can invade. Whereas people with high integrative complexity,
Speaker 1: they're often a lot more intelligent. Yeah, I know, right,
Speaker 1: it's just leading into compliments, often a lot more. It
Speaker 1: is a date I tell yeah, I know, I want
Speaker 1: to Can I sleep problem? But keep going with the definition. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So people with high integrative complexity lot and more creative.
Speaker 1: They think about things in a nuanced way. So if
Speaker 1: you have a dilemma save a friend, you're not going
Speaker 1: to think or someone wrongs, You're not going to be like,
Speaker 1: they did this, therefore they're bad. Because anyone who does
Speaker 1: this is bad. You're going to be like oh, this
Speaker 1: person did this thing to me. Okay, let me think
Speaker 1: about it from their perspective, let me think about different interpretations.
Speaker 1: Let me pull this apart and analyze it from various perspectives.
Speaker 1: I want to problem solve this, like your brain refused
Speaker 1: to see things in this just like dichotomy of different categories,
Speaker 1: so high integrative complexity. It's people who it's very difficult
Speaker 1: for them to make decisions around things. Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 1: I do feel a little bit cool out, but yes,
Speaker 1: but I gave you so many compliments true, true, too, true,
Speaker 1: and now now they had of hits like I love you,
Speaker 1: but I love you but yeah, that was really nice.
Speaker 1: But yeah. So it's like they find it really hard
Speaker 1: to make decisions. They find it very easy to see
Speaker 1: the good in people, which kind of leads back to
Speaker 1: that like people pleasing yes person type idea, because if
Speaker 1: you see everything from every single perspective, if you just
Speaker 1: tear ideas apart until they are their bones, you get
Speaker 1: to them be selective about how you get to view
Speaker 1: a situation, so in terms of the war and around
Speaker 1: because it's a really good example of people who have
Speaker 1: low integrative and high integrative complexity you might see this
Speaker 1: war and you might be like, yeah, but how can
Speaker 1: this what contributed to this? Like is there any possibility
Speaker 1: that we're actually the bad guys? Because isn't the things
Speaker 1: that we're upset about the same things that we're doing
Speaker 1: to them like this, that that, And then you get
Speaker 1: to really create a more nuanced and complex view. And
Speaker 1: I think Phoebe has high integrative complexity. That is, like
Speaker 1: I have to permit one of the highest compliments, not
Speaker 1: that either is better than the other, but like a
Speaker 1: huge compliment compliment. I feel like one is well do
Speaker 1: you need both in the world? And I really appreciate
Speaker 1: Jema saying that because it almost confirms that I'm studying.
Speaker 1: So I study. I study environmental science and international relations.
Speaker 1: But we forget about I forgot that you stay, We
Speaker 1: forget I study that one um And in my environment degree,
Speaker 1: I do a lot of systems dynamics, which is that
Speaker 1: idea you can create these systems diagrams where you can connect.
Speaker 1: So for example, I did I did a project recently
Speaker 1: on climate change in health. I read this paper, yes,
Speaker 1: um and about how climate change impacts health and for
Speaker 1: some people like well, I guess, so I guess. I
Speaker 1: guess a warming climate is going to why affect about
Speaker 1: some of the reasons. Okay, well there's three the three categories.
Speaker 1: There's like direct reason, there's a flood from climate change.
Speaker 1: You die, Oh that got really curiously. The second level
Speaker 1: is like um, like through um diseases, like affectiblen diseases.
Speaker 1: There's going to be an increase of malaria in Australia
Speaker 1: due to rising temperatures. So why why because oh, because
Speaker 1: the climate is changing. Yeah. Yeah, they like it hot,
Speaker 1: they like it hot, and the mosquitoes are going to
Speaker 1: be coming right to Australia carrying that malaria. And the
Speaker 1: third one is like mental health, so you'd go, oh,
Speaker 1: how's how's like mental health or socioeconomic as well. You
Speaker 1: could say there's going to be higher rates of domestic
Speaker 1: violence as a result of climate change because rising temperatures
Speaker 1: can cause a natural disaster and a drought, and that
Speaker 1: causes mental stress, and that causes partners to lash out
Speaker 1: onto each other. And it doesn't I don't think it
Speaker 1: causes it triggers it. No, yeah, it triggers it. And
Speaker 1: so you can create these system diagrams where you can
Speaker 1: connect the political to the social to the economic, and
Speaker 1: you can go into these subcategories of each and you
Speaker 1: can figure out which variables affecting what. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I find that fascinating. Yeah, I find it really And
Speaker 1: this is kind integrated complexity. Because I said, when me
Speaker 1: and Phoebe first became friends, we used to do lots
Speaker 1: of study together. I don't remember you would your approach
Speaker 1: to an essay would take you so much longer than
Speaker 1: anyone else. No, it wouldn't take me longer. I would
Speaker 1: ponder for like weeks over it. I'd be like, what
Speaker 1: about this perspective? And then I would write like maybe
Speaker 1: six different essay like plans, like just plans. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: even start writing. Then it would be the two days
Speaker 1: before the essays due, and I we would see each
Speaker 1: other and then yeah, and then I would smash out like,
Speaker 1: I think this is just such a skill. You should
Speaker 1: see her do this. I will say esay in like
Speaker 1: two days and just like and then I retype it
Speaker 1: multiple times, and then I realized that I hate it,
Speaker 1: so I delete it all and then I retype it
Speaker 1: all again and then boom, dumb perfectionist syndrome. But it's
Speaker 1: because oh, my God, like, you should just hear it.
Speaker 1: She was doing this one on fishing once. I've never
Speaker 1: ever heard someone get so like you just you just
Speaker 1: got yourself into a rabbit hole. You were like, but
Speaker 1: then what about this? What about that? Like just context?
Speaker 1: The essay was about how does um what was it again?
Speaker 1: It was Sri Lanka, wasn't Yeah, the polk straight and
Speaker 1: how a decrease in fish like over fishing in the
Speaker 1: polk straight is causing violence, but it's creating like a
Speaker 1: like a cycle of violence. Yeah, anyway, between Sri Lanka,
Speaker 1: if anyone wants that essay, they can reach out to
Speaker 1: me and I will send it to them. I'll drop
Speaker 1: her instant in there in the description and you can
Speaker 1: hit her up because it was really good. I read
Speaker 1: it. It It was really good. And then remember I went
Speaker 1: home and I was getting YouTube video recommendations and I
Speaker 1: was like, God, the algorithm is knows it does We
Speaker 1: were in close proximity. But yeah, so what are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on high integrative complexity? And well, I think you
Speaker 1: have it, Okay, I want to know other downfalls to it? Yeah? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: Like so normally people would be like, oh low, especially
Speaker 1: we exist in a pretty you and I like in
Speaker 1: a pretty elitist society. Remember it is highly elite, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and I comes from such a privileged background, to such
Speaker 1: a privileged background, and everyone here is I would say,
Speaker 1: the ah, I know a few people who I would.
Speaker 1: It's like funny because when you start studying psychology, you
Speaker 1: begin like doing these things where you just like categorize
Speaker 1: everyone into these It's pretty dangerous because you probably shouldn't
Speaker 1: do that, but you know, you see these patterns of
Speaker 1: behavior and like traits that people have, and you're like
Speaker 1: low integrative, high integrative, like you apply these different concepts
Speaker 1: to them. So I do definitely recognize people in my
Speaker 1: life who are low integrative. And Phoebe did say, like,
Speaker 1: low integrative doesn't necessarily mean negative, absolutely not. It just
Speaker 1: means low levels of abstraction. So high levels of abstraction. Firstly,
Speaker 1: if you have high integrative complexity, more likely to have
Speaker 1: a higher iq UM. So congrats on that one. Well,
Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't show through. I'm sure I could think
Speaker 1: of any absensible that's when I'm like, gosh, she's in
Speaker 1: a low integrated sy moment. But a downside is also
Speaker 1: you're more likely to have greater levels of anxiety. Oh yeah, bingo, fingo,
Speaker 1: smack bang bingo, and think about it, because it's like,
Speaker 1: if you get a problem, it would be so easy.
Speaker 1: I wish I could be the person who's like, I
Speaker 1: know the answer to this, because I have these very
Speaker 1: clear categories of what's right and what's wrong and what's
Speaker 1: this and what's that in my mind. But if you
Speaker 1: do have that high integrative those those categories are not clear,
Speaker 1: which leads to significant overthinking and can lead to like
Speaker 1: pretty bad anxiety. I think it's harder to the dots
Speaker 1: on problems that don't need to be connected. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: oh absolutely, And I'm sure do you find this heaps
Speaker 1: with like environl like you do a lot about like
Speaker 1: climate change. Yes, it would be pretty scary being someone
Speaker 1: with high integrative and approaching issues that are just by
Speaker 1: nature incredibly complex. We kid problems, We kid problems and
Speaker 1: you talk about them. Do you ever get like really
Speaker 1: bad climate anxiety. It's hard because I personally like I do,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I because like with climate change, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be lucky, Like I'm I'm very very privileged,
Speaker 1: and that's just like the luck of the drove of
Speaker 1: where I was born, um and the family I was
Speaker 1: born into and all of that. It's gonna be in
Speaker 1: the country. It's gonna yeah, in the country, but it's
Speaker 1: going to be the people who are low socioeconomic uma,
Speaker 1: los socio economic, rural, rural, people of color, Indigenous people.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be those people that are going to be
Speaker 1: hit the heart artist. And so I feel climate and
Speaker 1: anxiety for other people, maybe not for myself so much.
Speaker 1: Isn't it crazy? Like didn't Just recently there was like
Speaker 1: a us UN report that Australia is like the lowest yeah,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Okay, here's the thing. Yes, we have
Speaker 1: significant impacts of climate change. Like I lived through the
Speaker 1: bush fires a couple of years ago. Like we were
Speaker 1: in that wasn't like two years ago. Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: like stuck in Bateman's Bay, like literally on the doorstep
Speaker 1: of one of the biggest bush fires in Australia. The
Speaker 1: consequences of climate change in this country are very apparent, exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why I'm interested
Speaker 1: in climate change is because it like so I'm interested
Speaker 1: in the social side of it, maybe the socioeconomic side
Speaker 1: of it, And because it's not just an environmental issue.
Speaker 1: It's like I remember in my first year of UNI,
Speaker 1: we did this diagram, like you can construct so many
Speaker 1: different sort of diagrams of it, but it had it
Speaker 1: had social and a little like a circle in the middle,
Speaker 1: had economic handly outside then it had environment. And it's like,
Speaker 1: if you affect the environment, you affect everything. You affect
Speaker 1: every single aspect of your life. You affect the political,
Speaker 1: you you impact the social and the economic, like if
Speaker 1: you like obviously it depends on the problem, but like
Speaker 1: if you affect the social, it kind of can only
Speaker 1: sometimes will only affect the social. Yeah, if you affect
Speaker 1: the example of that, Ah, oh, I don't know. You
Speaker 1: put me in the spot, but sorry, yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's why I'm interested in
Speaker 1: because it has such a consequence on all these other
Speaker 1: facets of people's lives. Yeah, And I think the big
Speaker 1: thing is like in Australia, you know, we're contributing so much,
Speaker 1: but it's going to be creating problems for those our
Speaker 1: governments quite frankly doesn't care about Like and how what
Speaker 1: do you mean you didn't say that? Oh, sorry, it's
Speaker 1: not Peebe saying it, it's me. Yeah, Like there are
Speaker 1: just certain populations that our government neglects. It's really like
Speaker 1: indigenous groups being a primarily one primary one absolutely, but
Speaker 1: it's not just them. It's like, you know, climate change
Speaker 1: is like the best collective action problem there is, because
Speaker 1: the worst the best in terms of like it's the
Speaker 1: perfect example of exactly the issue whereby like we contribute
Speaker 1: to the problem because we want the benefits of coal
Speaker 1: and shit like that. And then we could do a
Speaker 1: whole another episode in this because we want a tangent.
Speaker 1: We can come back to this another day we'll do
Speaker 1: We'll do a climate anxiety and what we could do
Speaker 1: a group one with like me and Aaron and some
Speaker 1: of the Envirol girls. I feel like I need you
Speaker 1: guys to talk about it more because I just have
Speaker 1: very like we're going to come back to political ideas,
Speaker 1: and I think we need to talk about your time
Speaker 1: in these some of these communities in Tenant Creek, so
Speaker 1: um Tenant Creek. We kind of brought it up before,
Speaker 1: but I think it's been a huge it was a
Speaker 1: huge kind of turning point for you and very rarely
Speaker 1: do you have those where you're like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: a moment that I need to take a hold of,
Speaker 1: recognize and this will be impacting me for years to come.
Speaker 1: So how did you end up in Tennant Creek? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to go too much into detail
Speaker 1: work because of my work, but I'm really fortunate to
Speaker 1: have a job in the public service that allow me
Speaker 1: to travel, um which it travels to on a topic
Speaker 1: that I'm interested in and social social issue environment which
Speaker 1: is social. So I was really fortunate I got to
Speaker 1: do a work trip pretty early on in my job
Speaker 1: to Tennant Creek. Yeah, and middle of nowhere. Came back
Speaker 1: with a lot of thoughts to my friends. We had
Speaker 1: a great chat about it when you get Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so for context, Tennant Creeks might bang in the middle
Speaker 1: of Norman territory. I had never been there. I'm from
Speaker 1: Adelaide originally MM lived in Camp Railad. Yeah, that's pretty
Speaker 1: much it. And what did you find when you went there?
Speaker 1: Because you were going there for work, but you came
Speaker 1: back with like it was insane? Yeah, And I think anyone,
Speaker 1: I think anyone that would travel to remote locations in
Speaker 1: Australia Regional Victoria, Regional New South Wales so for context,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested in rural regional issues. Like that's I'm
Speaker 1: not a city girl. All my friends are telling me
Speaker 1: they're like wanting to move to Sydney or Melbourne. I
Speaker 1: can't think of anything worse out I don't. I can't
Speaker 1: think of anything worse. I want to My dream is
Speaker 1: to move to a farm in New Zealand, in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere with a hot farmer. Oh, Phoebe wants
Speaker 1: a farmer. So I'm not to farm. One's a wife, okay,
Speaker 1: and um yeah, and so Tennant Creek is one of
Speaker 1: the most has really high rates of violence, has really
Speaker 1: high rates of sexual assault. Yeah yeah, including towards children. Um.
Speaker 1: It also has a really sad history. It's in the
Speaker 1: Northern Territory. We'll say, like I would like to say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, my respect to the traditional owners that I
Speaker 1: got to they welcome me onto their land or among
Speaker 1: you people. And but as a result it has got
Speaker 1: this really sad colonial history with the stolen generation and
Speaker 1: like I'm not indigenous. I don't want to speak too
Speaker 1: much on that, um, but it was so I've traveled
Speaker 1: to develop like I mean the term some people like
Speaker 1: academics uses developing countries, and I've traveled to places like that,
Speaker 1: and I would say that some of the standards of
Speaker 1: living in rural like remote Australia or worse than in
Speaker 1: places where we have a foreign like foreign aid budget too.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, it was it was just it was really
Speaker 1: it was quite upsetting. Um yeah, but you came back
Speaker 1: and you kind of just had this new vigor like
Speaker 1: what what did it kind of teach you about what
Speaker 1: you wanted to do in the future. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: think I mean, growing up family full of doctors, they've
Speaker 1: I mean a family full of doctors that are all
Speaker 1: like public health physicians, so they're not they're not you know,
Speaker 1: your surgeons or anything. But um uh sort of came
Speaker 1: back knowing that, Like I mean, my mum always says,
Speaker 1: my parents, my mom and dad always says to me that, like,
Speaker 1: you're not put on this earth to make money, and
Speaker 1: they're like, you put on this earth to make this
Speaker 1: earth a better place for other people. And I know
Speaker 1: because it is bloody angels, and so I really like
Speaker 1: them saying that because it has made me go. I
Speaker 1: don't think I'd feel fulfilled if I was doing something
Speaker 1: that was only serving the purpose of making money and
Speaker 1: so going to Tennant Creek with all the problems that
Speaker 1: Tennant Creek has, I'm sure you can google it and
Speaker 1: the Barclays a whole um because that place is beautiful,
Speaker 1: beautiful people, beautiful environment. There's a lot of hope, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of hope for the future. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm such an outsider, Like I'm such a clear outsider.
Speaker 1: I was basically a tourist. But it's good you can
Speaker 1: recognize that sort of suggesting you're an expert. No, I
Speaker 1: have no clue how to you know, do solve these
Speaker 1: incredibly complex problems. But it has made me go like
Speaker 1: I will not be happy in my life if I
Speaker 1: don't work on something that I feel like I'm doing
Speaker 1: good for the world. That sounds so like savior of me.
Speaker 1: But I think your intentions are incredibly pure, and it's
Speaker 1: just that you've found this thing that you've been like, well,
Speaker 1: this is this is it? Like this is something that
Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, these areas aren't prioritized,
Speaker 1: the fact that no one seems to care because Australia
Speaker 1: is such like I'm just gonna say very lonely, Australia
Speaker 1: is incredibly racist. Yeah, it is the colonial history of Australia,
Speaker 1: and um, how we treat anyone that's not white is disgusting.
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm I'm a white person whatever, like that's
Speaker 1: who I that's who I am. But I have people
Speaker 1: in my family that are migrants that are not white,
Speaker 1: and I have have you know, I've like it's it's
Speaker 1: so obviously, so easy to see. It's so easy to see,
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to be you don't have to
Speaker 1: that doesn't have to be your lived experience to appreciate
Speaker 1: that it's someone else's Like, that's empathy. Yeah, it's basic
Speaker 1: empathy being like and that's the thing I don't understand.
Speaker 1: It's like a lot of people I've met people like
Speaker 1: Australia isn't racist, Like I've never seen it. It's like
Speaker 1: look closer, which really look closer, and like, obviously I
Speaker 1: have no lived experience of racism, but it was pretty
Speaker 1: damn obvious to me. The Tenant Creek is living the
Speaker 1: people living in Tennant Creek are living a very very
Speaker 1: different Australia to the Australia that I grew up in. Wow,
Speaker 1: and what did that kind of So you've kind of
Speaker 1: mentioned what that made you think about for the future.
Speaker 1: But like in five years time, do you see yourself
Speaker 1: because you apply for a job in Tennant Creek, you
Speaker 1: came back home. Yeah, yeah I didn't. I've removed it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh I'm gonna do I'm gonna do it honors next
Speaker 1: yearn oh yeah yeah, but she but it was yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry not to out you, but like you kind of
Speaker 1: came back and I'm like, yeah, this is what I
Speaker 1: want to do. Like any help I can be just
Speaker 1: by listening, just by knowing the systems, like I'll do it.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a there's a there's a I have.
Speaker 1: I think you've got to use like your privilege for good.
Speaker 1: Like I I went into an amazing school, I have
Speaker 1: an amazing family. I hate, got to do any extra
Speaker 1: crewker activity I ever wanted to do, got to go
Speaker 1: to an amazing university. I'm financially supported, I'm financially stable,
Speaker 1: like I'm a white woman. I should use this power,
Speaker 1: like I guess you could call it a power for good.
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of the Climate change staff, I
Speaker 1: find that it's I will be somebody from like a
Speaker 1: conservative background. It's more likely to listen to me, yea
Speaker 1: than someone else, somebody else that doesn't have the privileges
Speaker 1: that I have and that they don't respect. They don't
Speaker 1: respect that person and they're never going to listen to
Speaker 1: them or change their mind. But I have a higher
Speaker 1: chance of being able to yeah, yeah, facilitate a conversation
Speaker 1: because they're not going to walk on with prejudice exactly, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're one of the us. Like there's in groups and
Speaker 1: out groups all over Australia and you just have to
Speaker 1: look for them. And I think as well, there's like
Speaker 1: a clear lack of communication channels between different community groups
Speaker 1: around Australia wherever that that be regional areas or whatever,
Speaker 1: and trying to understand how government works or how does
Speaker 1: how does the power system work? How does who's in
Speaker 1: power and Australia work. So I think, because I come
Speaker 1: from this background, I understand how these systems work. We've
Speaker 1: navigated them because we didn't have trouble navigating exactly. So
Speaker 1: I feel like it's I almost feel like I should
Speaker 1: make space by like taking a step back, but creating
Speaker 1: a space a communication channel for yeah, people I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I don't want this to come off as like
Speaker 1: it doesn't think it's sort of like white savior or whatever,
Speaker 1: because you see you're very aware, like you know, you
Speaker 1: know that where you've come from. But I want to,
Speaker 1: like I want to use my skills for goods, like
Speaker 1: the education that I got, Like I might as well
Speaker 1: do something that's like doesn't just benefit like myself white
Speaker 1: people in Australia, for every future generation. But yeah, five
Speaker 1: years time and you're doing honors next year like so
Speaker 1: many year, Yeah honors. That should be cool if I
Speaker 1: can get that sort of any words of wisdom before
Speaker 1: we say goodbye. I asked Peate this question. I think
Speaker 1: it really does for a conversation. But like the biggest
Speaker 1: lesson you've learned last year? What has it been in
Speaker 1: your in your second year of your twenties? Okay, um,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm still learning. So it's you could
Speaker 1: ask me this question every single week and it'd probably
Speaker 1: different answer depending on like what Isn't that the best
Speaker 1: part though? It's like every every week there's a new
Speaker 1: lesson to kind of be learned from the situation's life
Speaker 1: throws at you. I think in your twenties you have
Speaker 1: to you have like oh, it's hard. Oh it's okay.
Speaker 1: This is like a response that is like what it's like? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's like, um, I was gonna say, like
Speaker 1: in your twenties. I thought you're gonna say, in your twenties,
Speaker 1: should say yes, And then we've talked about how you
Speaker 1: shouldn't say yes. Well, because okay, So I think everything
Speaker 1: to sum up the conclusion conclusion of this podcast, including
Speaker 1: remarks concluding remarks situationships terrible, set your boundaries, set your
Speaker 1: boundaries of friends, because that also includes protecting yourself from
Speaker 1: doing emotional labor that is unnecessary, which we talked about.
Speaker 1: Emotional labor is fine if it's reciprocated and if you
Speaker 1: know where you stand and you also should What else
Speaker 1: will be spoken about high integrated, low integratate if we
Speaker 1: talked about something exactly, but big psychological concepts. I think
Speaker 1: the main thing is just like, look after yourself. Is
Speaker 1: that your lesson? Yeah? I mean I'm terrible at it,
Speaker 1: but um, look after yourself. Know what you want out
Speaker 1: of life, and if you figure out what you want
Speaker 1: out of life, go get it, go get it. Amazing
Speaker 1: words to That's the thing, isn't it? Like? Because I
Speaker 1: am so lucky to have had such a supportive family
Speaker 1: that have told me to just go get whatever I want, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can do it, you deserve it, like you just
Speaker 1: learn good things in your life. Exactly, well, amazing, very
Speaker 1: starring words from feeding You. I'm so sorry for such
Speaker 1: a chaotic podcast. Trust me, when we listen back to it,
Speaker 1: it's going to sound smooth as long. Okay, Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on and for devoting your
Speaker 1: Friday night and snacks for us to talk about these things.
Speaker 1: I hope you guys have enjoyed our wisdom. It's a
Speaker 1: bit of a ramble, but that's the point of these episodes.
Speaker 1: If you don't like it, you don't have to listen.
Speaker 1: So there's my kind words for you, and Len I'll
Speaker 1: meet you. Yeah, Phoebe is a great friend, and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad she said yes. So I hope you got
Speaker 1: something out of it. And we'll see you next week
Speaker 1: where we're going to talk about the psychology of social anxiety.
Speaker 1: I'm keen to tune in for someone. Bye.