S1: Is the tortoise. The podcast that digs deep. Into the
S1: power of slow. I am your host. Brooke McAlary. And
S1: I am joined by my life host Ben McAlary. Whoa.
S2: I sound like a parasite.
S1: Oh, no, that wasn't the intention. Okay. Yeah, just. Hi. Well,
S1: it may be fitting for today's conversation.
S2: Oh, totally. Totally. I can't wait to get into it,
S2: but I think we've should start with a bit of
S2: a check in.
S1: Okay, let's do it.
S2: How are you feeling?
S1: I'm feeling. I'm feeling good. So, like, painting the picture?
S1: We're sitting in our back room as is our want.
S1: The fire is going. It's crackling away. I don't know
S1: if you can hear it or not. The sun was shining. It's.
S1: I'm drinking coffee like it's good. Life's good. Yeah.
S2: How about you? School holidays. It is.
S1: School holidays.
S2: So the kids are at home and.
S3: How dare they? We've had a.
S2: Busy, I think, start of the holidays as in we've.
S2: I think we've done a lot.
S1: Yeah. I mean, we went away for a few days
S1: with family and we've had a few day trips. Our
S1: camping trip got rained out, unfortunately, which was a bit
S1: of a bummer. Huge bummer. But you know, that's, that's
S1: the risk with camping. Yeah. And yeah, so we filled
S1: those days with, with other things which was really nice actually.
S1: Went saw a movie, went for a day trip to Canberra.
S1: Went to Questacon. Yep. Live in my year six Best.
S3: Life Questacon.
S2: Because our eldest never got to go to Questacon because
S2: of COVID.
S1: So like a bit of context. Not everyone listening to
S1: this podcast grew up in Sydney. Yeah, Questacon is like
S1: our National Science Centre in Canberra, which is the capital
S1: of Australia, which is about two hours from where we live,
S1: and Questacon going to Questacon for at least for kids
S1: who grew up in western Sydney in like the 90s,
S1: your Year six camp was a trip to Canberra, you
S1: went to Questacon, you went to Parliament House, you went
S1: to the War Memorial. Yeah, and our eldest missed out
S1: on that because of COVID. So we went for a little.
S2: I love little day trip.
S1: It was fun. It was a really fun day, actually.
S2: So fun. I enjoyed.
S3: It. Yeah.
S2: But that all sounds very relaxing and nice, but I
S2: feel stressed.
S1: Okay. Really stressed. You're juggling, though. The.
S2: And I feel like school holidays. You just juggling that
S2: one extra ball.
S1: As that's what I mean. You're juggling school holidays in
S1: a way that I'm not this time around so it's
S1: it's a bit tough.
S3: Yeah, I just.
S2: Feel really stressed. And I'm sorry. I don't feel 100% either.
S1: Oh, very on topic for today's episode.
S3: Actually, I think so.
S2: I think so. All right. So as you said at
S2: the start of the show, the topics all about wellness.
S1: I don't think I did say that. I did you I.
S3: Hinted I.
S1: Did. But if people have read the.
S3: They will title. I don't know.
S2: So yeah wellness and we tried to record this episode
S2: about a week or so ago.
S3: Before school holidays. We were trying to.
S2: Yeah, yeah, we were trying to get on top of things.
S2: But what we found is when we were talking is
S2: that wellness as a topic is just so huge and
S2: we could take it in so many different directions that
S2: we felt like we needed to narrow the scope of
S2: it a little bit and just talk about wellness because
S2: it's something we've both experience wellness and social media. Yeah.
S2: And and social media wellness influencers more specifically, and how
S2: they've infiltrated the wellness scene. Right. And how that makes
S2: us feel.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Because when we first started talking about it, I think you,
S1: I know I certainly felt a bit conflicted because I
S1: have no broad issue with wellness. I have no problem
S1: with people wanting to feel well. But even as we
S1: started that initial conversation, it was like, Well, what's our
S1: stance on this? Because I have a big issue with
S1: some of the commercialization in the snake oil genus of it.
S1: And yet I don't want to rubbish an entire industry. Exactly.
S1: So that's, I think where we kind of fell apart.
S1: So that's why we've come back for this episode 2.0.
S1: Not that you'll ever hear the first one.
S3: No.
S2: Because yeah, it was just so, so broad and so
S2: I mean, when you think about wellness and social media,
S2: what immediately comes to mind for you and you can
S2: start start this answer while I go and stoke the fire.
S2: All right.
S1: What comes to mind immediately, I think, is it's negative,
S1: to be honest. My first reaction, if you're if you're
S1: asking about wellness and social media is like that snake oil,
S1: excuse me, preying on people's vulnerabilities, sort of. Stereotype. And
S1: I know that that's unfair. That's only that's a very
S1: one sided way of looking at it. But that is
S1: absolutely my first. Thought. I think if I step back
S1: and look at my excuse me, my thoughts on wellness
S1: more broadly, I have a much more holistic vision of
S1: what wellness is in that it's about. Yes, physical wellness
S1: to a certain extent. But inasmuch as you can separate
S1: the two physical and mental wellness, but also spiritual wellness and,
S1: you know, relationship wellness and self-worth, wellness. So for me,
S1: it's it's one big picture. And I think that social
S1: media wellness on the whole focuses very much on the physical.
S1: And then probably as a secondary, the mental really.
S2: Yeah, I think you're probably right.
S3: I will say.
S1: Our perspectives are going to be very different because the
S1: information that I am served up as a woman of
S1: my age with the interests and accounts that I have
S1: previously followed, algorithms are going to give me a hugely
S1: different picture of wellness, you know, feeds than it will
S1: for you. And we know this from the things that
S1: you've been served over the years. Yeah. What do you think, though,
S1: when you think social media and wellness?
S2: I just think that I'm being sold a product that's
S2: that's purely what it is is is under the guise
S2: of here's some information it's always and buy this thing right.
S1: So here's some information from a doctor who happens to
S1: have their own supplement line. Yeah. Yeah.
S2: But not even a doctor.
S3: Sure.
S1: Sorry. A quote.
S3: Doctor.
S2: Because I just think. I cannot believe. It's just like
S2: every man and his dog are just talking about wellness
S2: and an aspect of wellness and what.
S1: Can you give me some more information.
S2: Okay, I'll give you an example. Liver king. Yeah.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Liver king. If you don't know who he is, he's this.
S3: Lucky you.
S2: Fitness guru who I started to follow when he spoke.
S2: He started to talk about sort of like nose to
S2: tail leading and specifically liver and and what and eating
S2: like the liver, raw.
S3: Liver, raw.
S2: Liver. I guess at the start, it wasn't even.
S3: Royal, was it not? No.
S2: It was just like if you're eating liver, this is
S2: good because it does X, Y and Z. Sure, I'm okay. Well,
S2: I went out and bought some liver. I cooked it up.
S2: You cooked some of it. I cook some of it.
S3: What happened to the rest? Good.
S4: Good. Chucked in the freezer and it stayed there for about.
S2: One and a half years until you said.
S4: I think it's time to.
S2: Get rid of this liver. And I agreed.
S3: Yep. Goodbye. Liver.
S2: So it started like that, right? You know, this is
S2: why I live is important.
S3: This is. And I remember you.
S1: Talking about him, too.
S3: Yeah, because he was like.
S1: He would speak about things that I could totally get behind.
S1: Like getting sunlight on your eyes and your face first
S1: thing in the morning.
S3: You used to say, Yeah.
S1: And that's fine. Like, that's there's a lot of, as
S1: far as I'm aware, a lot of evidence that that
S1: kind of exposure to light in the morning is good
S1: for you. So, you know, it was like common sense stuff.
S3: Pretty common.
S2: Sense. And he called it the ancestral tenants. Right. So
S2: this is like going back to what the cavemen did.
S2: And I was like, Oh, God, okay, that's the SpinRite
S2: I can put up with that. But just, you know,
S2: what are the fundamentals? And that's what I was really
S2: concentrating on. But.
S4: Then he went.
S2: Crazy. Like it just kept on snowballing what he was doing.
S3: It got more.
S1: And more extreme, right?
S3: Extreme. Yeah.
S2: And, you know, you do some research and look at.
S2: You know what can go wrong when you're eating raw
S2: meat products.
S4: And.
S2: And not only leather, but it went to like the
S2: heart and testicles and.
S3: Yeah.
S5: I loved when I said that you were having a
S5: sip of your coffee.
S6: SIP of coffee. But I did see a video of
S6: him eating like.
S3: Raw bull testicles.
S1: I'm not going to yuck someone else's yum. I'm really not. So, like,
S1: people have all sorts of diets, like all sorts of
S1: nutrition approaches. And I am not going I am not qualified,
S1: nor am I interested in having an opinion on the
S1: way others eat. But it was just interesting to see.
S7: How quickly.
S1: This guy, who was probably already on the edge of
S1: like a little.
S3: Bit loopy and look.
S2: It came out later, like this year.
S4: That.
S2: Everyone was accusing him of of being on steroids. And he, like,
S2: refuted it and said, no, I'm not. He his body
S2: was like, ridiculous.
S7: A very, very large, fake.
S1: Muscular man.
S3: Like, just.
S2: Fake. He was red. You know, he had that look
S2: about him, that he was on steroids and he refuted it.
S2: But then it came out someone called him basically purchasing
S2: steroids or sort of understood it and so came out
S2: and then he accepted it as well, which, I mean, it's.
S4: Just.
S2: This is what I find. And not just live a king,
S2: but all these wellness influencers. It's a race to the extreme. Yes.
S2: And when you're talking about wellness and extreme, that's serious.
S2: That's dangerous, that's hurtful and that's scary.
S1: This is my problem with it. Right? Like I said,
S1: people can do with their own bodies what they want.
S1: But it is so often the race to the more extreme.
S1: And this is why it's so interesting that we've tried
S1: to social media specifically, it's been proven that you will
S1: get if you're an influencer, you will get more engagement,
S1: you will reach further into the algorithm. The more extreme
S1: you are and often the more negative you are.
S3: 100%.
S1: So whether that is a known piece of information for
S1: influencers or if it's just something that people are, you know,
S1: absorbing themselves through their own experience, it is having an impact, right?
S1: So you see like Live a King maybe, maybe his
S1: initial intentions were positive and not extreme at all. You know,
S1: I think most people's intentions are yeah. And then they
S1: get stuck in this feedback loop of more engagement, which
S1: is the currency of social media, more attention because they
S1: said something slightly more extreme or controversial. So you do
S1: it again and you just up the ante a little
S1: bit and then suddenly you're eating bull's balls and, you know,
S1: and whether you think that that's the right thing to
S1: do or not is irrelevant because you've tapped into the
S1: attention side of the equation rather than the intention.
S2: And we're talking about wellness. We could could be talking
S2: about any industry. Absolutely. To social media or any of
S2: those influencing themes and topics. Yeah. And we've seen it
S2: in in the slow living space as well.
S1: Absolutely. Yeah. It gets more and more for a while
S1: there anyway. I don't feel like I'm particularly engaged with
S1: it anymore, but um, for a while there it was like,
S1: how extreme can a minimalist be? Yeah, you know, how
S1: many items? And I absolutely, I don't think I played
S1: into it for views or listens or whatever because that
S1: was something that I was genuinely never interested in. But
S1: it played on my mind about how good a minimalist
S1: am I, you know? And it it had huge impacts
S1: on my mental health. It's like I would spend weeks
S1: stressing about a purchase or, you know, something that we needed,
S1: but I didn't want to add to our like tally
S1: of items that we owned. It really did. Um, it
S1: did number on. It did, yeah. And I had to
S1: intentionally like all of that and step back from that. Yeah.
S1: And I think wellness is far more detrimental because.
S3: Oh yeah.
S1: You know it can impact not only your mental health
S1: but your physical health too. There's this guy that I
S1: not that I'm on Instagram very much anymore. In fact
S1: I deleted it like.
S3: Three weeks ago.
S2: Oh yeah, that's another episode, I think, which we can
S2: go into, and that's social media and teenagers.
S1: Yeah. And social media and families. Yeah. But I. Yeah.
S1: So I don't feel engaged with a lot of the
S1: influencer stuff anymore. But there is a guy I follow,
S1: his name's Ben Carpenter and he is a personal trainer,
S1: really like, you know, visibly fit, muscular guy, also lives
S1: with a couple of chronic illnesses, very open about his
S1: experiences with that. And he will talk about how the
S1: vast majority of so he debunks a lot of wellness
S1: influencer videos around health and fat loss and stuff and he.
S1: Openly shares that the majority of influencers who might look
S1: like the ideal right, the thing that people are trying
S1: to chase. So if it's a someone who's looking to
S1: build a lot of muscle and lose a lot of fat,
S1: he said, they may look like the thing that you
S1: want to. To achieve. And they are so disordered, they're
S1: so unhealthy, they may look like the epitome of health
S1: as we're being sold it, but they are unhealthy because
S1: they have, you know, a really disordered approach to nutrition
S1: or exercise. And I find that people like him are
S1: really helpful counter points because it starts to remove the lens.
S1: And I say this as someone who I feel like
S1: I've got a pretty good bullshit detector and I still
S1: routinely find myself having to pull back from. You know,
S1: snake oil stuff. It's it's.
S3: It's a job I liken.
S2: It the current wellness movement to be like the diet
S2: movement of the 1990s.
S3: Where it was the same thing sugar.
S2: Slash fat wars like yeah truly I think it's that
S2: level of. Marketing and consumerism.
S1: I don't think there is a very big distinction between
S1: what passes as wellness and the diet culture because wellness
S1: is dressed up in moral goodness. Right. If you are well.
S1: Then you must be a good person. And to be well,
S1: you typically have to be thin. You have to be
S1: conventionally attractive. Probably white, probably wealthy. Like that's. And if
S1: you happen to tick those boxes. Then, regardless of how
S1: well or otherwise you are, you are seen as a
S1: morally good person. And that's a real head trip to
S1: try and disentangle yourself from. All right. Yeah. I think
S1: that the crossover between diet, culture and wellness culture is
S1: enormous and so detrimental because as I said, there is
S1: so much wellness. That is positive. So much wellness that
S1: has genuine benefits for people, but it's not necessarily the
S1: same stuff that is going to make you thinner or,
S1: you know, more conventionally instagrammable attractive.
S2: Let's talk about some of those wellness. Like on a
S2: practical sense, what is it that makes wellness for you
S2: a positive experience? Like what do you do in the
S2: wellness space both on that when you're talking about mentally
S2: or physically, which is what I've I looked at in
S2: my own life, but then spiritually as well, which which
S2: is an interesting concept.
S1: It's a good question. I don't necessarily know how to
S1: define it.
S2: What works for you within those three areas.
S1: I think it's. I'm speaking hesitantly because. I want to
S1: use the word self-care, but you know that I have
S1: a very. Conflicted relationship with that phrase. Because it has
S1: become so commercialized. So for me, it's finding small opportunities
S1: for genuine self care. That makes me feel supported. That
S1: makes me feel like from within. That makes me feel
S1: valued or valid. That makes me feel rested that I can.
S1: Find a. A sense of. Okay, I guess I.
S3: Yeah, that's okay.
S4: Yeah.
S1: I think the way I view wellness. Let's start here.
S1: It's a tool rather than the destination. And I think so.
S1: Much of the so many of the issues that I
S1: have with wellness. Are because we treat it like the destination.
S1: You know, it's the thing that we're trying to achieve.
S1: Whereas I see it as. A tool that I use
S1: that allows me to feel well or feel better or
S1: feel supported or, you know, loved or valued. Which then
S1: allows me to go and do other things.
S3: Yeah.
S2: It's like a long term view rather than the short
S2: term view.
S1: Yeah. And it's also not outcome related, which is a
S1: real head trip. Yeah.
S2: The outcome related. I'll push back on a little bit
S2: because I know what you're saying. Like the, the physical
S2: manifestation of what like wellness looks like.
S3: So for me it was weight loss, weight.
S2: Loss and all that sort of. Okay.
S3: So that's it's not anymore.
S2: But what about and you've done this, you've told me
S2: this and we've discussed this before is I'm doing this
S2: so I can. Ski with my grandchildren. So I can. Sure.
S2: Pick up my grandchild when I'm in my age. Do
S2: you mean like it's that.
S1: It's that you're saying that it's an outcome.
S3: It is an.
S2: Outcome. It's 100% an outcome. It's just not. It's a
S2: long term outcome.
S1: But it's also not a it's.
S2: A sustainable.
S3: Outcome, but it's also.
S1: Not a visible outcome. It's not tied to practical.
S2: It's very.
S3: Practical.
S7: Sure.
S1: I get it. And I think for you and I
S1: really if we were to unpack why, we would even.
S1: Delve into wellness stuff. It's because since we probably turned 40,
S1: we've both really wanted to age.
S3: Well, this is 40.
S4: Yeah.
S1: Okay. But that's something that yes, from 40. We both
S1: said we really do want to age well. And what
S1: does that mean? It means that we would like to
S1: we don't know what's around the corner. We don't know
S1: if we'll have grandkids. We don't know any of that stuff.
S1: But so I guess that's that's my point is it
S1: is not a visible outcome and it is not. Um.
S1: It's almost out of our control what that outcome looks like.
S1: Whereas chasing, for example, weight loss, which I did for
S1: many years and obviously no longer do, but that was
S1: a measurable outcome. Which was part of the reason why
S1: it did such a number on my head. But yeah.
S1: And I actually don't think it's controllable either. As I
S1: say that now, you know, there are so many variables
S1: as to why you will or will not have a
S1: body that changes regardless of what you do or don't
S1: do to it. But the wellness industry teaches us that
S1: if only you worked a little bit harder, if only
S1: you ate a little bit less. If only. If only.
S1: If only. If only you bought this thing. If only.
S3: You.
S4: Scarcity mindset.
S1: Then you will be in control of it. We're not.
S1: We're not. So I'd say that, yeah, aging well is
S1: the intention.
S3: Yeah. Nice. So yeah.
S8: I think that.
S1: Saying wellness is a tool. And trying very hard to
S1: extricate it from commercialization is, for me, the most balanced
S1: way of. Looking at it and allowing myself to stay
S1: open to a lot of the elements of it that
S1: have served me well and staying vigilant of those elements
S1: that are trying to sell me stuff.
S8: Yeah.
S1: What? So some examples of wellness.
S7: Like I stretch, I drink water.
S1: I, you know, I walk, I okay, I have a
S1: an activity in sleep tracker. There you go. This I'm.
S4: Going to talk to you about wearable.
S2: Tech. Yeah. Comes to.
S3: Wellness. Yeah.
S1: So I've got one of those rings that I've had
S1: for a couple of years, and I mostly got it
S1: because when I was going through the worst of my
S1: health issues, my sleep was dreadful, absolutely appalling. And I
S1: wanted to get a bit more insight into what it
S1: actually looked like.
S8: And I found it incredibly beneficial.
S1: Yeah. Um, to track my sleep, first of all, and
S1: to see that the tiny changes that I make. So
S1: diaphragmatic breathing, for example, which I have been doing for
S1: about 12 months as a practice, several times a day
S1: for a couple of minutes a day. It has had
S1: a marked improvement. On my measurable wellbeing. So I get
S1: like monthly reports from this ring.
S8: And.
S1: It has shown me over the last year that my
S1: central nervous system so, and my heart rate variability, which
S1: is a measure of overall health, has improved significantly and
S1: that's lined up with a lot of changes that I've
S1: made to my wellbeing in order to have those sorts
S1: of like those slow 1% type improvements. So that has
S1: been really helpful to see that. The tiny changes that
S1: I've made, the breath, you know, the breathing practice, the stretching,
S1: the sticking to a bedtime, you know, 90% of the
S1: time getting up at the same time having a good
S1: morning rhythm that works for me. All of those things
S1: have had a positive.
S8: Impact.
S1: So in that way, I have no issue with, you know,
S1: wearable tech. I think it could very easily become obsessive.
S1: You know, and I do know of people who have
S1: bought like sleep trackers or whatever.
S3: Activity.
S2: Trackers that I need to get my steps in today.
S2: And they pace around the lounge room.
S3: Sure.
S1: I mean, and if that's your goal, if that's your
S1: like the way you measure.
S8: Yeah.
S7: That particular value.
S1: Of yours movement or whatever, fine. For me, it would
S1: be more obsessing over like, Oh my God, I didn't
S1: get good sleep last night. Oh, I'm going to be again.
S2: It's like the long term factors rather than the short term,
S2: like day to day stuff.
S3: That's a good like trending.
S2: Yeah. Trending factors. Yeah, I got one. I got one.
S2: A different kind of wearable. But I did get one
S2: and I was mostly interested in. Recovery. Yeah, because I'm
S2: really challenged by how much I can put push myself,
S2: and I wonder whether I push myself enough. So like,
S2: there's this strain strain kind of measurement and it measures
S2: like a lot of different things, like your heart rate
S2: and all that sort of stuff.
S4: And.
S2: Then your recovery from that. Because I always think and
S2: I'm because I'm mostly mostly trained by myself, am I
S2: pushing myself hard enough to realize benefits and. The answer
S2: is no. I don't think I am based on my
S2: activity tracker. Right that I can push myself. Harder. Than
S2: what I currently am doing. Which is kind of weird,
S2: isn't it?
S3: Like, Yeah.
S1: It is weird. And I recoil a little bit from that.
S3: And I would, of course I.
S5: Would.
S3: Like.
S1: Because that's the antithesis to. Slowness, almost like that's not
S1: even entirely true. But.
S2: The recovery piece is like the slope. That's very true.
S2: So if I reach like this strain factor, whatever that is,
S2: then it will say to me, You need to recover
S2: today and you need to do like a moderate strain,
S2: like don't go over X amount.
S1: And how do you feel when it tells you to
S1: calm your farm a little bit?
S3: I'm feel fine.
S1: You don't feel.
S3: Frustrated? No, no.
S2: No, not at all. Because usually I don't I don't
S2: like exercising to that level, back to back days. I
S2: always have have a day off. So, like day on
S2: day off is how I like to to do it.
S2: Not always able to do that but that's that's how
S2: I like to do it. So I think it's fine
S2: I just I find it valuable in. Yeah just that
S2: recovery piece which and sleep is part of that. Yeah
S2: I get a sleep score. Yeah. And that's part of
S2: the recovery.
S1: Have you found yourself obsessing about any of them, like
S1: when you first got it? Were you.
S3: Oh yeah.
S2: I was looking at it, like multiple times a day.
S4: Right.
S2: And trying to work out, okay, why did I get
S2: a 79% sleep score, right?
S8: Yeah. Did it.
S1: Change your behavior? Like have you adapted or adopted any
S1: wellness type things to help improve your sleep score, for example?
S9: Hmm.
S1: Or is it just a number that you obsess over?
S3: I think.
S2: No, practically, it looks like doing more deep breathing. Okay. One,
S2: two is like when. Like go to bed. When I said.
S3: When it tells you to kind of.
S2: Plans me to go to bed, like go to bed.
S2: I'm amazed at how much sleep I need. I'll put
S2: it that way. Like over eight hours for optimal sleep,
S2: which I was like, Well, I didn't think I needed
S2: that much, but apparently I do again, for that optimal recovery.
S4: And.
S2: Yeah, I can. I don't like it when my sleep
S2: score is no good. That's frustrating. Particularly if that's a
S2: day that I need I want to work out.
S3: Do you.
S8: Think that?
S2: Keep going. I just need to go and stoke the
S2: fire again.
S10: Okay.
S1: Do you think that those days that you get the
S1: the low sleep score. You feel worse because, you know,
S1: you had a bad sleep?
S3: I haven't had.
S2: It for long enough to. But yes, is the answer
S2: to that. But I've only had it for like a month. Right.
S2: Do you know what I mean? So I don't know
S2: how that looks from a trend perspective. And that's what
S2: that's what I like about it. It's like it actually
S2: says you are not optimized yet for some of these scores.
S2: Like it takes a month or even more for it
S2: to be. Accurate in that stuff. So. But yes.
S11: I can.
S2: I could definitely see myself becoming obsessed about this.
S1: I think if you were going to really would have.
S1: Is what I would say.
S8: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
S1: But it does mean so even in that that one example,
S1: both of us having, you know, wearable tech that helps
S1: us and genuinely does help us to access more wellness options,
S1: you know? Yeah. That's a product, right? We're giving our
S1: money to.
S2: 100% bought into the product. Again, though, to look just
S2: need to remember it's a tool, right?
S4: Yes, it's a tool.
S2: And it has many. Look. There's no doubting that it has.
S2: Benefits and for other people as well. For example, I
S2: bought my dad a just as purely a sleep tracker. Now,
S2: my dad has recently been diagnosed with dementia, Alzheimer's and
S2: vascular dementia, and I probably will probably talk about this
S2: later on. But he was obsessing about his sleep and
S2: about how much sleep he was getting because he didn't
S2: think he was getting. Enough where my mum would say, No,
S2: you've got plenty. So we bought him this sleeptracker and
S2: it actually and so it's, it's like scientific. It's, it
S2: shows you not only how much sleep you're getting, what
S2: kind of sleep and for how long and when you
S2: work like all that stuff. So it it's. It's for
S2: him for him and yeah just purely data for him
S2: it just provides like assurance reassurance of, of what it
S2: was like. So it's like, oh it had a bad sleep. Well,
S2: well no you didn't because you this is what it
S2: looked like.
S3: And or.
S1: Alternatively. Yeah, you did. No wonder you're so tired. Exactly.
S1: It makes sense because you are literally sleep deprived. So
S1: I think.
S3: So. That's like great.
S2: What a huge, like, advantage.
S8: Absolutely. And it has been.
S1: It has proven to to be it has released a
S1: tension that.
S2: Was a significant obsessive anxiety. Yeah. A, you know, issue. Yeah.
S2: For my dad and his condition. And it's it's I'm
S2: not going to say relieved, all of it, but it has.
S2: It's been a conversation.
S12: Uh.
S1: It's been an ongoing point of tension. Yes, that's.
S4: That's the word.
S3: I was struggling.
S1: Which is which. It is nowhere near as much the
S1: case anymore. So the World Health Organization. Defines wellness. And
S1: I think this is really interesting. Wellness as a state
S1: of complete, complete physical, mental and social well-being, not merely
S1: absence of disease or infirmity. That feels exhausting to me. And.
S8: Also incredibly exclusionary.
S1: As a definition of wellness. I understand, like if you're
S1: looking at it as a binary thing, to be well
S1: is to be the opposite of ill.
S3: Yet I have.
S1: Been living with chronic condition conditions over the last few years,
S1: and I really am by no means as challenging as
S1: many people living with a disability or, you know, severe
S1: chronic illness. I really bristle at.
S8: The.
S1: Thought that anyone who is. Living with a chronic health
S1: condition or cancer or, you know, any number of illnesses
S1: is just excluded from wellness. That really annoys me.
S8: So I think that.
S1: It's probably more more evidence for me that wellness is
S1: not a destination. But what do you think when you
S1: hear that? Because you're you don't you're not living with
S1: any chronic conditions or anything. Like when you hear that,
S1: does that sound like a. Something that you want to achieve. Like,
S1: is that a mountain you want to climb or is
S1: it something that you're like, No, thank you. That sounds.
S8: Tiring.
S2: It just sounds like a definition that it's been.
S4: And that originated from a committee. Sure.
S2: But policy makers. Sure. And that's all there is that
S2: has then influenced policy decisions. So that's all that's that definition.
S3: Is, which.
S1: Is a problem.
S3: To me.
S4: Huge, huge.
S3: Problem.
S8: Like that's an enormous problem, that policies.
S1: Are being created with a vast chunk of society just
S1: not considered as.
S8: Like worthy or. Um.
S1: Capable? I don't know. Yeah.
S2: Or just even included? Absolutely. Inclusiveness. They're excluded from that measurement.
S8: And I think that the the.
S1: State of complete.
S8: Health.
S1: Is what's wrong with the wellness industry because. I think
S1: to a certain extent, absolutely. Spend time focusing on your
S1: being spend time trying to optimize your health. You know,
S1: I'm not a biohacker. I'm not interested in like ironically,
S1: I'm not interested once I get to a certain point
S1: in those tiny 1% tweaks, you know, where people like
S1: if you go to bed at like 15 minutes earlier
S1: and if you drink this tea and if you do
S1: these exercises and if you sync everything to this particular
S1: like chronotype or whatever, you will feel 1% better. Like
S1: at some point I think there's diminishing returns and I'd
S1: prefer to spend that that energy doing other stuff. I'd
S1: prefer to spend it on relationships or.
S8: Create creative projects or gardening or like watching a movie with.
S1: My kids, you know? So I think it's that. That
S1: mentality of like, if.
S8: I work hard enough.
S1: I'll be 100%.
S8: Well, and then what? They might be like, this is not.
S1: Like a I'm not saying give up, but we're all
S1: going to die. You can work as hard as you
S1: want to optimize your health and well-being. And you're still
S1: going to die. I'm not saying give up. I'm not saying,
S1: you know, do things that make you feel bad just
S1: because it's easier.
S8: But at some point.
S1: There's got to be for me anyway, there's a point
S1: where I'm.
S8: Like, This is good. Good enough.
S1: I feel well enough.
S3: Yeah.
S8: And I'm. Yeah. Even that makes me feel uncomfortable because
S8: of the moral issue, right? Yeah, because if you're not. Like,
S8: maybe I'm not that good a person then, you know, like,
S8: that's how tightly tied it is to goodness.
S1: Yeah.
S2: Maybe I'm not as good as I think I am.
S3: Yeah. Yeah.
S8: It makes me deeply uncomfortable. And I think that's really.
S1: Interesting that that was my reaction. Like, I truly believe that,
S1: you know. Sure. Absolutely. Work on your wellness, feel well,
S1: feel happy, find contentment. But at some point it's like
S1: the capitalist version of health.
S3: Oh, 100%.
S8: You know, when.
S1: When is it enough?
S8: When's it enough? And funnily enough.
S1: It will never be enough because someone else will invent
S1: some new app or some new thing or some new
S1: way of doing it that is meant to make it
S1: just that little bit better.
S2: Yeah, it's that trend.
S4: Stuff, you know, like.
S2: I read an article recently where it's like hit training
S2: is now doing you more harm than good.
S3: That's it.
S2: Because now it's all about slow cardio as the way
S2: to build longevity and burn fat and all the rest.
S2: And like, I just immediately go back to tabloid magazine
S2: articles of the 90 seconds talking about diet fads.
S3: Oh, honey.
S2: Like that's where that's where my mind goes now with
S2: all that.
S7: And it's basically.
S8: The same.
S3: Thing. Big money. Yeah, that's all it is.
S2: Just big money.
S8: And it's just so.
S1: Interesting, though, to see what happens publicly when someone dares
S1: to step out of that and say, Actually, this.
S7: Is just a pile of crap.
S8: Yeah. Um.
S1: You know, find happiness. Like find contentment in yourself, move, eat.
S8: And oh, see, even this is.
S1: Complex, right? Because I went to say, move your body,
S1: eat less processed food. Yeah. To me, that's fairly common sense.
S1: We know that those things are going to contribute to
S1: overall health.
S8: But what gives me the right to say that that's
S8: what people want? Maybe that's not what people want.
S1: But if your goal is to feel well in your body,
S1: that those common sense places are probably a good place
S1: to start and finish, maybe, yeah. Because beyond.
S8: That, it gets really.
S1: Murky and really confusing. And speaking from like personal experience. Damaging. Yeah.
S1: Gets real damaging real quick.
S4: Has this first.
S2: Statistic kind of blew me away and it challenged a
S2: few things, which we've already spoken about, but. As a society,
S2: we are 20% less active now than we were in
S2: the 1960s.
S7: Oh, I believe that.
S2: So knowing what we know about fitness and health and wellness,
S2: that that is from you know, the dietary side is,
S2: you know, looking at macros and what you need to
S2: eat to have like an optimal diet and less processed versus,
S2: you know. You know, we've spoken about that. We've spoken
S2: about like types of exercise we need to do and.
S2: Wearable tech as tools. And, you know, the big data
S2: we have now in in research and all the rest
S2: of our exercises. The fact of the matter is, we're
S2: less well than we were in the 1960s with all
S2: that information. What does that show? What does that tell you?
S8: Oh, God.
S1: It shows us a lot of things. I think it
S1: shows us that lifestyle is not, um, you know, the
S1: average lifestyle now is not. Equipping us to move frequently.
S1: The food that is available to us is far more varied,
S1: but on the whole far more processed. I'm and this
S1: is not like a back in the good old days
S1: kind of commentary at all because. Okay.
S8: How rude.
S1: It's not though, because.
S8: Like life was.
S7: Really.
S1: Terrible for a lot of people, you know, 50 or
S1: 60 years ago. Um.
S7: But.
S1: From that health perspective, I don't think that the increase,
S1: the vast, vast increase of information and knowledge is serving
S1: us all that well. Although in saying that people were
S1: also told in the 60s, women were told to smoke
S1: so that their babies were delivered, their pregnant women were
S1: told to smoke so that the babies were delivered smaller.
S3: What?
S8: So I've been told I wasn't alive.
S1: You know, And there was all sorts of.
S8: Questionable advice.
S1: Given. Either because the knowledge wasn't there or because certain
S1: people had vested interests like tobacco companies and whatnot. So
S1: even that is, you know.
S8: Messy.
S1: But I think that the convenience side of it, the
S1: busyness side of it, the. Constant connection to tech side
S1: of it means that we are often far more sedentary
S1: depending what you do for work and everything else, but
S1: on the whole far more sedentary even in our downtime. Yeah.
S7: That. That doesn't.
S1: Surprise me. I would have thought it would be more. Okay.
S2: Well, by 2030 it will be 35%. Right? So if
S2: that trend continues. So how do we buck that trend?
S4: What are the solutions to this?
S8: Go simple. It's got to be simple. But, you.
S1: Know, it's also.
S8: I don't think you can lead.
S1: People towards anything unless they want to be led. So
S1: some people don't want to.
S8: Change and that's.
S1: Their prerogative. You know, for me, I know that the
S1: change came. Um, the euro turned 40. I made my overall, like,
S1: yearly theme health. Yeah. And joke was on me because
S1: that's when I got sick. But, um. That was that
S1: stemmed from my intention to age. Well, and everything has
S1: probably grown from that intention ever since. No one could
S1: have made me do that unless I wanted to.
S8: So whether or not it's talking about.
S1: The realities of. What it could look like to age. Well,
S1: you know, and.
S8: Allowing or giving people.
S1: Permission to think about aging as a positive thing. Maybe
S1: because then that becomes a goal or a. A value,
S1: you know, to age well. I think people are terrified
S1: of aging and terrified of walking into it intentionally. I
S1: am terrified of aging.
S8: Yeah. Mm.
S1: And yet you're choosing. You're making choices.
S3: To to.
S1: Do it as well as you.
S8: Can. Correct.
S4: That's and then that's the.
S2: That's the way around that right is to age, but
S2: age in a way that.
S4: You're the best.
S2: Version of that.
S1: So you say, what can we do? Like, how do
S1: we reverse the the trend?
S2: So think long term, think sustainable, think non immediate think.
S7: Yeah, sure, absolutely.
S1: But, you know, it's not a matter of creating like
S1: a public health conversation because.
S8: Everyone's values are different, right? Everyone.
S1: I'm sure that if you asked people. No one would
S1: say they willingly want to choose to feel worse. Yeah,
S1: but what feeling better looks like and feels like is
S1: different for everyone. Yeah. So, you know, Yeah, I think it's,
S1: it's really tricky. And I know we kind of moved
S1: away from social media and wellness there towards the end,
S1: but I think that social media does have a huge
S1: role to play there because.
S7: The.
S1: Overarching conversation around health and wellness on social media is
S1: one of youth. It's one of staying young as long
S1: as possible. And if you can't do that, I you
S1: can't do that because you can't stop yourself from aging.
S8: Yeah. Even though there's a lot.
S1: Of podcast bros who tried to tell you that you
S1: can aging is just a disease. Apparently. I don't agree
S1: with that, by the way. I think that if people
S1: were able to extricate themselves from that messaging even just
S1: a little bit and separate wellness from external health. It
S1: might change what it what the pursuit of it looks like,
S1: and then it can become something very simple. It can
S1: be like, well, do I feel better when I move
S1: for 15 minutes a day? Do I feel. Does my
S1: brain feel better? Does my body feel better?
S8: Not. Does it look better? Not. Does it?
S1: You know, even move better. But do I feel better?
S1: And what are the flow on effects of that over
S1: a week? Over a month? Over a year?
S8: I think maybe that's that's where it.
S1: It could shift for people by simplifying it. You know
S1: what happens if I add one new non processed food
S1: to my diet a day, to my nutrition a day?
S8: What does that look like? What does that feel like? Yeah.
S8: And of course.
S1: I do just want to say before we wrap up.
S1: On this topic. There is a huge.
S8: Element of privilege attached.
S1: To a lot of the wellness stuff, particularly nutrition, but
S1: also movement and exercise. So much of it is just
S1: flat out not available to people because of the price tag.
S4: Very true.
S1: You know, so I think that any effort that we
S1: can make to simplify that, to slow it down, to
S1: bring it back to like a very, very, very small
S1: building block is a positive thing. But it always needs
S1: to be seen through the lens of money, exposure, accessibility
S1: and understanding that not everyone's playing field is the same.
S3: Yep.
S2: You know, that's a good way to.
S3: To finish because.
S1: I don't like the judgment that then comes with it.
S1: It's like, well, you're just not trying hard enough. When
S1: someone has access to all of those things, someone else
S1: has access to none of them. You cannot no say
S1: that it's a level playing field.
S3: Yeah, and that's wellness.
S2: You just can't compare.
S4: Full stop.
S1: Well, yeah, I.
S8: Think that's probably ultimately why.
S1: So much of the conversation was like. This silence like
S1: thinking because you start to try and speak in absolutes
S1: and there are none.
S8: No.
S1: When it comes to health and wellness and wellbeing, there
S1: are none.
S4: Absolutely not.
S2: Anyway, that's our views on wellness. If you've got your
S2: own views, why don't you share them over on Substack?
S2: That's the tortoise.
S1: Brooke McAlary. Substack.
S8: Com.
S4: That's it. Just getting used to that.
S7: Yeah, that's where that's where I.
S8: Live these days.
S1: So I live in Substack.
S4: You do? You really do.
S8: Uh.
S1: No, it's, um. You know, it's developing into this really
S1: wonderful community. Actually, I love it a lot. I love
S1: the people who subscribe, people who comment, the people who
S1: take part in our Friday confab. It's just a. I've
S1: really rediscovered my love of writing over the past few months,
S1: and a lot of that's down to what I've been
S1: putting out into the world over on Substack.
S2: Yeah, go and check it out. We also must thank
S2: those that have left us a review and rating on
S2: Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
S3: Absolutely. All those new.
S2: Ratings and reviews really helped. And if you would like
S2: to and haven't done so yet, please, please feel free
S2: to do that. We yeah, we truly thank you that
S2: it's been great.
S7: You've said some.
S8: Very kind things about the podcast, about the the old slow.
S1: HomePod and the tortoise in its new iteration. So it's, um. Yeah,
S1: it's been.
S8: Really cool.
S1: To see, actually. I don't often allow myself.
S8: To feel that and it's been really nice.
S2: I like that. You know what else I like? Staring
S2: at a fire. I've been zoned out on this fire.
S8: It's. Yeah, it's one of my favorite things. It's one
S8: of my favorite things to do. I love that.
S1: The weather is starting to cool.
S8: Down.
S1: So that we can do this a little more.
S2: Let's get on to the second piece that we're going
S2: to talk about, and that's an article that you found
S2: on The Secret to Thriving in Life.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Which I thought was a great counterpoint to the wellness conversation.
S2: It's not all about being comfortable. Yes. Yeah. And I
S2: guess that kind of comes back to what I was
S2: saying about strain and.
S4: And activity and Yeah.
S8: So I will.
S1: Include a link to this article in the show notes
S1: which is over at the Tortoise on Substack.
S8: But it is an article written by a.
S1: Neuroscientist named Paul.
S8: Taylor.
S1: And.
S7: His theory.
S1: Essentially is that discomfort inconvenience.
S8: A.
S1: Certain amount of strain and stress.
S7: Is good for us.
S2: It's not only good for us, it's essential.
S3: Yes.
S8: Correct.
S1: Paired with, as you said, recovery, paired with connection, paired
S1: with sleep and rest and, you know, all of those
S1: other things. But I just thought it was a really
S1: interesting article it made. There's a little bit of. Um,
S1: fear mongering is the wrong word. A little bit of.
S1: That element of going to extremes in the article. And,
S1: you know, he's selling a book.
S3: Promoting a book.
S1: Yeah, I understand where that's coming from. They would have
S1: taken an excerpt from his book that has the most
S1: strong kind of messaging and run with that. So I
S1: do get that.
S8: But ultimately, I.
S1: Thought that his message was really interesting and I mean.
S8: It.
S1: He focused a lot on physical. Discomfort and then physical recuperation.
S8: Yeah. I am more interested.
S1: In emotional discomfort. And the conversation around that. Yeah.
S2: We're challenging your ideas and thoughts. Is that what you mean?
S3: Yeah, I.
S8: Think that having.
S1: Difficult conversations allowing yourself vulnerability. You know, really stepping into.
S7: The fear of.
S1: Being seen or being wrong or.
S8: Allowing.
S1: Yourself to.
S8: Evolve.
S1: I think that there are huge benefits to that. But
S1: something I have found myself thinking about a lot lately
S1: is so people will say, you know, you build resilience
S1: by going through difficult things, by, you know, having tough conversations,
S1: having difficult experiences will build resilience. I agree to a
S1: certain extent.
S8: But where is the line?
S1: Between something that. Builds resilience and something that damages us.
S4: I don't know.
S8: Neither do I. It's not, is it?
S2: Lessons learnt. Is it your ability to reflect on that experience?
S2: And then ultimately, what I really like about it is
S2: that if you think back to your greatest achievements or
S2: things that you're very proud of, most of them involve
S2: some form of stress and being out of your comfort zone.
S3: Sure.
S2: So that's a reflection, right? Like you only know that.
S2: When you've when you've been out to reflect on that experience. Okay.
S2: So to answer your question, it's reflecting on that experience
S2: and going, Oh, no. This is this has happened as
S2: a result of that. And it might be like trauma
S2: or it might be. You know, like the bad experience.
S3: Do you know what I mean?
S1: I do know what you mean, but I don't necessarily
S1: agree with it. Agree? Okay.
S8: Yeah, I think that that's.
S7: A choice.
S1: To look back over difficult things and say as a
S1: result of going through these difficult things, this discomfort, wherever
S1: it fell, on the scale of discomfort, these positive things
S1: have happened or these lessons have come from it.
S7: That's a choice to.
S1: Be able to do that. I don't think we can
S1: always do that. And I think sometimes there are things
S1: that happen to us and we're like.
S7: That just sucked.
S8: That sucked. Do you know what I mean?
S4: Yeah. I can't help.
S2: But think, though, that.
S4: We're bringing.
S2: This other. Oh, look, it's going to come down to
S2: the individual, isn't it? Sure. Some people will never embrace
S2: discomfort because of. A number of different reasons, whether it's Trump,
S2: like too many Trump like experiences of trauma. On one
S2: end of the scale and then the other end of
S2: the scale is people. Might just be victims.
S3: Right?
S2: And just have that victim mentality. We all know people
S2: like that. So it's down to the individual and growth mindset.
S2: That's all it is.
S4: Mhm. But some.
S2: Experiences. Yes. You will reflect on them and go oh no,
S2: that was a traumatic experience. There's no positive to, to,
S2: to come out of that. Um, um. Well, some might say, look,
S2: that was a really traumatic experiences, but this is the
S2: lesson that I've learned from it. I don't know. Yeah.
S2: Is it it's down to the individual in their mindset.
S8: Yeah, I think.
S7: There's also a role of healing.
S1: You know?
S4: Yeah.
S2: I'm going to go and put another log on the fire. Okay.
S1: Choosing to. Heal in spite of.
S8: Maybe that's the difference.
S1: Yeah. We choose to heal in spite of the crappy
S1: thing that happened. Yeah.
S8: Or not.
S1: You know, we choose to blame the crappy thing that
S1: happened as to why we cannot heal or recover. I
S1: wrote a little while ago or last week on The
S1: Tortoise about the difference between healing and recovery. And. The
S1: difference ultimately for me is that recovery is about going
S1: back to what once was. Okay. Yeah. You know, we recover.
S8: From.
S1: An injury and ultimately we've come back to the same
S1: state that we were previously, whereas healing is overcoming, it's
S1: moving forward. And that was really helpful for me because
S1: you can heal forward. You can heal with scars. You
S1: can heal with. Pain and lessons learnt and not going
S1: through what I've gone through over the last couple of years.
S1: I can't recover. And recognizing that I cannot recover. I
S1: cannot go back to how to what and how and
S1: who I was. But I can heal.
S7: That was a huge Yeah.
S1: Shift for me. Yeah, because healing is about moving forward.
S1: Healing is about. Perhaps going back to that article, you know,
S1: embracing what the discomfort has given us and moved forward
S1: in spite of rather than scrambling to get back to. Yeah.
S4: And and that's a key insight.
S2: There is people's obsession and. We all have it because
S2: we're human beings. Is that. It was great back then because.
S4: Of.
S2: I was younger. I was.
S4: Fitter.
S7: Trying to get back to.
S1: What we were.
S3: Yeah, yeah.
S2: Where that is the greatest fallacy of. Being alive is
S2: that you can never go back there.
S1: Which really puts paid to most of the wellness industry then,
S1: doesn't it?
S3: Totally.
S8: I didn't actually design.
S4: Debunks the whole industry.
S3: But you can't.
S8: Like yeah you can't go back.
S4: And that's look.
S2: That's right. And I think the key is then what
S2: we were discussing is that it is instead. Instead of
S2: going back and and and looking in the rearview mirror
S2: of wanting to be back at that weight or that
S2: level of fitness or whatever it is.
S4: It's you look into the crystal ball and you say.
S2: This is how I want to feel when I'm X
S2: years old or when I have this or when I'm,
S2: you know what I mean?
S3: Yeah, I.
S1: Do. I do. I think that it's just also something
S1: to be gained for finding contentment in the where you
S1: are right now.
S2: And Absolutely.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Because I think that either can be quite damaging, grasping
S1: too far into the future for things that we are
S1: not in control of versus wishing we could go back.
S1: They're both quite.
S8: Um.
S2: That's really hard, though, isn't it, to to get into
S2: that mindset of just being content where you are now
S2: and what you're doing.
S3: That's why it's.
S7: Difficult, but that's why it's so powerful.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Which then, you know, if we're. Talking about discomfort. Where
S1: does discomfort come into contentment as well? Do you know?
S8: Do you know what I mean?
S3: It needs to be.
S2: A daily thing.
S4: Yeah.
S2: For, then you to realize. What what contentment looks like?
S8: Sure. It's not a permanent state.
S1: When was the last time you felt uncomfortable? Physically?
S3: Like you push the lightest.
S2: Like heavy workout, probably.
S8: How often do.
S3: You work out? Actually, you know what?
S2: Moving eight cubic.
S4: Tons of firewood. Tons. Eight. Taking cubic.
S8: A lot of firewood.
S4: Was a lot of firewood.
S3: Yeah.
S1: So that was yesterday. You felt.
S7: Physically.
S3: Uncomfortable.
S1: You put yourself in the way of discomfort on purpose.
S3: To get the.
S4: Job done Right.
S1: And did you find a sense of. Um. Achievement. Contentment.
S3: Yeah. It was good to.
S2: Move the move the wood. I was disappointed at the
S2: how I stacked it.
S3: Okay. Because it wasn't.
S2: Neat as I wanted it to.
S4: Be.
S7: You have firewood.
S1: Stacking envy, though.
S5: For some reason.
S4: Yeah, I do. I could.
S2: Spend more time on it and get.
S4: It, but.
S2: It will require me chopping wood as I go. And I'm.
S4: I'm not about that life.
S8: Okay. When was the last.
S1: Time you felt emotionally.
S8: Uncomfortable?
S2: Emotionally uncomfortable.
S4: I know this. This just sprang to mind.
S2: Doing a short online course about understanding dementia.
S3: Yep.
S7: Yep, that will do it.
S4: That's all I want to say about that.
S2: At the moment. But yeah.
S4: Yeah. And.
S2: I think professionally, from a professional career standpoint, I am
S2: always wanting to to throw myself into the deep end,
S2: to feel uncomfortable. One of the.
S4: Huge.
S2: Influences of my life, my working life as something that
S2: your dad said to me early in my career is
S2: fake it till you make it. That's essentially being like uncomfortable.
S2: Until you are not in your.
S12: Cory.
S1: Yeah. Okay. So it's embracing.
S2: So in my career, I think I do it all
S2: the time.
S3: Yeah.
S8: Watching you operate, I would agree with that.
S4: What about you? Physically?
S8: Um.
S1: Yesterday I spent.
S8: A couple of hours in the garden.
S1: Probably doing heavier work than I have in quite some time.
S3: Uh, you know, but it's.
S2: Interesting with you in the physical discomfort because you're so
S2: used to. What it was like in the past.
S4: Being able to push yourself.
S2: You can no longer do that. No. And I feel
S2: like it requires me to come to you and say,
S2: I think that's enough now.
S7: I struggle with that.
S1: Yes, absolutely.
S3: I think you've done enough.
S1: Yeah, I do very much struggle with that because, you know,
S1: 2 or 3 years ago, I could spend five, six,
S1: seven hours in the garden and be very tired, but.
S1: Not wrecked. Yeah. Whereas now I might be able to
S1: do half an hour, some days less, some days more.
S1: Yesterday was was a good hit out. Yeah. But you
S1: still had to say it's time. Even though I knew
S1: like I knew it was.
S4: And then you came in and I said, How did
S4: you feel? How do you like you spent.
S2: I don't know, three hours out there. How do you feel?
S2: And you went I felt like I spent half an
S2: hour too much. Yeah.
S8: So that's that is.
S1: Emotionally uncomfortable for me to. I have to constantly weigh up.
S1: The physical side of it is also emotionally uncomfortable. So
S1: it's I don't think I've got a lot of clarity
S1: around it at the moment because it's still something that
S1: I'm absolutely learning to accept and yeah, go with.
S7: But there is.
S1: A definite crossover between. And I find the same thing
S1: when you and I do usually most weeks we'll do
S1: a personal training session together with our awesome trainer, and
S1: I have to stop myself from doing a full hour.
S1: I cannot if I did a full hour. I've done
S1: it and I'm out of action for a week. I
S1: just cannot do it at the moment.
S7: And that's incredibly.
S8: Frustrating.
S7: Yeah.
S1: So it's really weighing up the the two types of discomfort,
S1: the emotional discomfort that I'm a failure. I, I suck.
S1: I used to be able to do this with.
S7: The.
S1: Physical discomfort of.
S8: Pushing myself, which actually.
S1: Feels kind of good in the doing. But I know
S1: that the fallout will be significant and deeply unpleasant. So that's.
S8: You know, I'm finding that that challenging. Um.
S3: Yeah, I, I. Yeah.
S2: Okay, so what about mentally, then?
S1: I throw myself into emotional discomfort a lot. Yeah, you do.
S7: Um.
S2: You're always challenging.
S3: Yourself.
S1: Yeah, I think.
S3: That and challenging.
S2: Others.
S8: Particularly. That must be annoying. I must be a joy
S8: to live with.
S1: To be like around. Because I think I probably have
S1: a similar perspective on emotional discomfort to what you do
S1: with your work.
S3: Yeah, I'd.
S2: Agree with that.
S3: I would really and I think that's tied.
S1: To my writing and tied to the kind of person
S1: I am and the way that I figure things out.
S3: Because men are from.
S4: Mars and women are from Venus.
S3: Oh, all right.
S4: What the hell is that?
S3: I don't know. I need.
S4: To.
S2: I need to find out what that is.
S3: It's a book.
S8: It was a book from, like, the 80 seconds.
S3: Yeah, it.
S2: Sounds really.
S4: Bad.
S8: Yeah, I haven't read it. I can't pass judgment on it.
S3: If you've read it, let us know.
S4: You hate that as a stereotype, by the way. I
S4: recoil at it. Sorry for bringing it up.
S2: Please share what you were going to say. I'm getting
S2: silly now. I think it's time to wrap this up soon.
S8: Yeah, I think. The last time I.
S1: Was emotionally uncomfortable.
S8: I.
S7: Apologized for.
S1: Something.
S8: Not to you.
S5: I was going to say who was the lucky recipient.
S8: Oh, don't I.
S1: Apologize all the time.
S8: Excuse me.
S1: I do.
S4: You do. But what do you remember? The specific. Specific of.
S3: It or not.
S8: I just snapped at someone.
S3: Oh, yeah. Okay. And it.
S8: Was not.
S1: At all a big deal. But in that context, apologies
S1: never happened. And for me it was actually a very
S1: intentional choice to say sorry because because they never happen.
S1: And I am at a point in my life now.
S7: Where.
S1: I don't want patterns of behavior that have stood for
S1: a long time to continue standing for no good reason.
S2: Generational patterns.
S4: So what it was.
S2: How do you feel now after apologizing?
S3: Could. Fine. Do you.
S4: Feel.
S2: Great about it.
S1: About having snapped at someone.
S8: Know about having a policy?
S3: Um.
S1: I feel like it was the right thing to do.
S3: Because remember, it's.
S4: Not.
S2: What you do. It's your reaction then from it. Yeah.
S3: Do you know what I mean? My, my. What matters.
S1: My intention was. True and positive. Yeah.
S8: And. I think learning.
S1: To extricate my feelings about my choices versus the choices
S1: of someone else and their reactions and my feelings about that.
S7: That's.
S1: That's an ongoing process. Yeah. So, you know, you can
S1: apologize and have all the right intentions and feel fine
S1: about apologizing and still get mad about what.
S8: The fallout was.
S1: Yeah, you can. Those two things can both happen at
S1: the same time and it's just learning to separate them.
S1: I think.
S8: Like this is the kind of stuff.
S1: That I think about all the time. Yeah. You poor bugger.
S1: Like the conversations that I have with you.
S8: You must get so.
S1: Tired of listening to what happens in my head.
S4: So from a professional career point of view. You definitely
S4: challenge yourself.
S7: Workwise. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. You do?
S8: Only recently, though.
S2: Well, actually, you know what? It's. I think it's the
S2: thing that's changed the most. You've challenged yourself more and more.
S2: I mean, the tortoise is a great example of that.
S2: Like you just read. Purpose. Branded a.
S4: Very successful.
S2: Podcast or something. Yeah, like it's different. Yeah, going in
S2: a different direction.
S1: I do love those big, big pivots sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
S3: But Substack is.
S4: Another example.
S2: Like. And the writing you're doing now, it's totally different.
S2: You can you're.
S4: Continually.
S2: Challenging yourself.
S8: Maybe, Yeah.
S1: It's tricky.
S8: I find that a probably a more complicated.
S1: Conversation to have. Um, because a lot of my feelings
S1: about the work that I do as a writer specifically,
S1: that that work is tied up. With.
S7: Self-worth, which is.
S1: Tied up with frustratingly.
S8: Money.
S1: And being un valued as a.
S7: Writer.
S1: Uh, you know, this is a conversation that you and
S1: I have had for many years ongoing, and I.
S8: Feel like.
S1: Maybe something has.
S8: Shifted over the last six months or so.
S1: Which I'm very.
S8: Grateful for.
S3: I am, too.
S1: And it reflects in how I feel about my writing,
S1: how I feel about the work that is writing, how
S1: I feel about the projects that I'm working on.
S8: I think.
S4: And as a whole. How do you feel about yourself.
S2: And your work?
S7: Yeah, it's it's very.
S1: Intricately woven into my.
S7: View of who I.
S1: Am and.
S7: The value that.
S8: I have.
S1: I don't recommend it, but it's where I'm at at
S1: the moment.
S7: So there is always discomfort.
S8: You know what? Around my work, there is always discomfort.
S8: I get very nervous Still.
S1: With every post that I write a second guess myself, I.
S8: Wake up feeling quite anxious.
S1: The days that I know a new post is scheduled
S1: to go out, like there is an enormous amount of
S1: discomfort that comes from writing. And I know that like,
S1: it's of no real consequence in the world. Like I'm
S1: not saving lives. I'm not, you know, curing cancer. I'm
S1: not delivering babies.
S7: But it's just.
S4: I think.
S2: It's just a testament to the authenticity. And it's like you.
S2: You're putting yourself out there. Yeah.
S3: And it's scary.
S2: You're. It's 100% you.
S4: Yep.
S3: You're like, I.
S1: Wish I knew how to make it not. Yeah, but
S1: I don't.
S3: That's just.
S2: Your style and.
S3: Your. Yeah. Yeah.
S8: I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's.
S8: What a conversation. What a.
S4: What a.
S2: What a huge conversation. We do need to, though, just
S2: circle back on our reoccurring topics for the year and
S2: that is 1% and four day working week. Yes. Why
S2: don't you go first 1%. How are you going?
S8: This month has.
S1: Been a little.
S7: More scattershot.
S1: Than last month. So much I felt really.
S7: Really driven, really attached.
S1: To the idea of the 1% like I.
S7: Was.
S1: Um. Almost. Routine, which I'm not often routine in anything,
S1: was quite routine in my 1% application. So that was.
S1: Stretching every morning, working on my novel every day, or
S1: the equivalent of, you know, every day, which adds up
S1: to around like. 1% of a month is 7 to
S1: 8 hours, and I had certainly done that in March, April.
S1: We've been away with family.
S7: The kids are on holidays.
S1: My routine is completely gone and I willingly walk into
S1: that every ten weeks when the kids are on holidays.
S1: It's the choice that I make, but it means that
S1: I've had to be a little more flexible and fluid
S1: with how I apply the idea of 1%. So some
S1: days it's literally, what can I do? What is a 1%
S1: increase in effort in something? And that's enough. You know,
S1: it might be taking an extra 30 seconds to tidy
S1: up the kitchen bench before I go to bed. It
S1: could be, you know.
S8: Realizing I haven't done any.
S1: Breathing exercises that day, Doing them in bed when I'm
S1: reading it could be giving you a.
S7: Hug.
S1: It could be, you know, anything like that. I still
S1: view all of those things as an effort towards the 1%
S1: because they are intentional and I'm choosing to do them
S1: because I believe they will.
S7: Have.
S1: Some kind of impact over a long period of time.
S1: I'll never know what they are. No, but I know
S1: that they exist.
S7: Yeah.
S1: But in saying that, I'm also trying.
S8: As much as I can.
S1: To give that 1% of time to my writing. And
S1: that means that maybe I did an hour on a
S1: Saturday hour on a Sunday rather than 15 minutes a day.
S8: That kind of thing. So, yeah, I still feel good
S8: about it. I love it as a tool.
S1: I absolutely love it because it is so flexible and fluid,
S1: but so positive and forward moving. You know? Um.
S8: Another example is like when.
S1: We tried to record this episode like ten days ago
S1: and we got five, ten minutes into it and we
S1: looked at.
S8: Each other and we're like, You know what?
S1: The kindest thing to do is this. Let's just not,
S1: you know. And the flow on effect of that was positive, too, right?
S3: Because hopefully this.
S2: Episode is so much better.
S1: What's better than something that doesn't exist? Yeah. So I
S1: absolutely love it as a tool and I can't see
S1: myself not using it.
S8: Yeah. What about you?
S1: What has the four day work week traveling we'd like?
S4: It's.
S3: It's pretty terrible.
S8: This month.
S1: Is different.
S8: Again. Yeah.
S2: It's going to be really hard.
S8: So you went from the beginning.
S1: Of this year, sold that on the fact that it
S1: was going to happen to.
S4: Now. It's not going to happen.
S2: How? I thought it would happen.
S3: Yeah.
S8: How did you think it would happen?
S2: Every Friday I would have off and I'd be on
S2: the golf course.
S3: Okay.
S4: Ain't not going to happen.
S7: How many times have you played golf this year?
S4: Once.
S12: Um.
S2: So what is it? What's it going to look like?
S2: I've got to be more flexible in my definition of
S2: what the four day work week is. I need to
S2: create and manage expectations with clients around it. Yep. I
S2: need to get out of the mindset that I am
S2: an employee. Yes. With employee benefits. Yep. Whereas I'm a consultant.
S2: With hopefully consultant benefits. I'm talking very vague here because.
S3: Well, you've got.
S8: Clients and.
S3: So I.
S2: Just need to. Yeah, better manage expectations. Better be kind
S2: to myself when. It doesn't look like what I hoped
S2: it looked like.
S3: Yeah, right.
S2: And because I think just being of like, it would
S2: be easier for an organization in the trials that have
S2: been done is they have said days like it's it's
S2: a four day work week. Yeah. Within this within this
S2: timetable and this is what it looks like. Can't do that. Mm.
S2: So I need to then just better manage what, what
S2: the definition of a four day work week looks like
S2: for me. I did have one magical week where it
S2: did work. Yeah. Now it's about. Okay. There are certain
S2: circumstances out of my control. How do I. How do
S2: I still get the benefits right?
S1: And that's what I was going to say, rather than
S1: focusing so much on what it looks like.
S7: Could it be.
S1: Refocusing your attention on.
S7: How it.
S8: Feels?
S3: Yes.
S1: You know, so whether or not that is a reduction
S1: in hours worked over five days or.
S3: You know, the day is not always.
S2: A Friday.
S3: Or it might.
S8: Be two hours here.
S7: And three hours there.
S1: You know.
S8: Or.
S1: Working in a way that you can take two extra
S1: days off over a long weekend once every, you know, Yeah,
S1: three months, whatever.
S7: It Anyway.
S3: That's, that's where.
S2: You're at where I'm at the moment. The magical fairy
S2: tale definition of it, which works for some people, but
S2: for me and my.
S3: Work at the moment, at the.
S2: Moment unfortunately is not working and I'm a bit angry
S2: about it.
S4: Okay. Disappointed?
S3: Frustrated. Frustrated.
S8: Interesting.
S1: I guess. Holding on to that outcome as opposed to
S1: the process. It might not be a super positive thing
S1: for you at the moment. Then if the outcome looks
S1: like every Friday.
S7: Off.
S4: No. And I opened this conversation by saying how stressed
S4: I am, I actually feel.
S2: So much calmer now.
S4: Having just talked. Okay.
S7: Therapy. It works.
S3: It does.
S7: It does. Of course it.
S8: Is. Yeah.
S4: All right.
S3: Okay, That's it. On that note. Yeah. Thank you.
S4: What a what a good yarn we've had. I've enjoyed it.
S4: The fire's.
S2: Been great. That's really relaxed. Me looking at the flames.
S4: Um.
S2: I've enjoyed your insights.
S4: Thank you.
S8: Likewise.
S7: So if you haven't already.
S1: Head over to the tortoise. You can find all the
S1: show notes for today's episode.
S7: So that's Brooke calorie.substack.com.
S1: You can always just search for. That's the name of
S1: the episode. This is episode number.
S7: Two of the tortoise. You'll find every.
S8: To be there. If you haven't also subscribe.
S1: I send out a.
S7: Friday.
S1: Newsletter.
S7: Every Friday for.
S1: Free to everyone on the list. And often it's a
S1: an essay. Insight into what's been happening. There's also a
S1: big archive there that you can dig in to see
S1: what what the writing is all about. But I would
S1: love to have you there.
UU: Cost. Smooth and slow home.
S1: Readers from way back who have found their way over
S1: to the tortoise. And it's so cool to see like
S1: names that I have.
S3: You haven't seen for a while.
S8: Yeah, and interacting with.
S7: People.
S1: After, you know, a decade.
S7: It's really cool. It's really cool.
S1: There's something about the community over there that.
S7: It's filled me up. So I'd love to have you
S7: come and join us.
S8: In the meantime, we'll be back in your ears in
S8: a month. Third Thursday of every month, there's 100% drops.
S10: And take good care of me.