Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three h four of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get into our conversation
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. If you're all caught
Speaker 1: up on Hulu's new hit Unprisoned, then this is the
Speaker 1: episode for you. Starring Carrie Washington as Page Alexander and
Speaker 1: Delroy Lindo as her father Edwin. Unprisoned is a funny
Speaker 1: and realistic look at what happens when Edwin is released
Speaker 1: from prison and moves in with Paige and her son Finn.
Speaker 1: We haven't had one of these in a while, but
Speaker 1: Page's character was the perfect one for another on the
Speaker 1: collech episode Joining Me Today to chat about what might
Speaker 1: happen if Paige came into her office for therapy. Is
Speaker 1: doctor Lex Brown James. If you've missed Doctor Lex here
Speaker 1: on the podcast before. She's an Amazon best selling author
Speaker 1: of These Are My Eyes, This Is My Nose, This
Speaker 1: is My Vulva, These Are My Toes, and does a
Speaker 1: licensed marriage and family therapy an ASEX certified sexuality educator
Speaker 1: and supervisor. Doctor Lex and I chatted about some of
Speaker 1: the issues she'd explore with Page in therapy, how attachment
Speaker 1: styles impact our relationships, what reparenting and inner child work
Speaker 1: looks like in therapy, and how Page's career as a
Speaker 1: therapist might impact how she showed up as a client.
Speaker 1: This episode does include spoilers, so if you haven't watched,
Speaker 1: please hit pause until you've had a chance to finish
Speaker 1: the episodes. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag
Speaker 1: TBG in session or join us over in the Sister
Speaker 1: Circle To talk more in depth about the episode. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thanks so much for joining me again today,
Speaker 1: doctor Lynn.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me here.
Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. So we both have finished watching for
Speaker 1: season ze Unprisoned on Hulu. We're not sure if we're
Speaker 1: getting the season two, but keeping our fingers crossed. So,
Speaker 1: doctor Lex, I want to first hear from you, what
Speaker 1: was your overall impression of the show.
Speaker 2: I was going in with high hopes. Sorry. I love
Speaker 2: all of the actors that are in the show, and
Speaker 2: then we rarely get to see a marriage and family
Speaker 2: therapist on camera. It's usually a social worker or a
Speaker 2: clinician or a psychologist. So I was just hoping that
Speaker 2: they did this justice, but they're like, please just justashus,
Speaker 2: especially as myself being a licensed marriage and family therapist,
Speaker 2: and overall, I thought it was so beautifully done in
Speaker 2: therapy regard in regards to some of the healing that
Speaker 2: took place in all of the systematic parts of family
Speaker 2: that we saw. That is the Beesnes of family therapy
Speaker 2: right there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely some heavy hitters connected to this project, right. So,
Speaker 1: Yvette Lee Bowser is an executive producer on the show.
Speaker 1: We know Kerry Washington was also an EP as well
Speaker 1: as the lead actress, and Terry Lewis and Jimmy jam
Speaker 1: did the music, which was beautiful. So you could clearly
Speaker 1: hear that there was a lot of care put into
Speaker 1: the music in the soundtrack. So I also really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I wasn't quite sure what I was getting into, but again,
Speaker 1: like you really really appreciated what I saw on camera.
Speaker 1: So we have not had an on the Couch episode
Speaker 1: in a while, and so I would love for us
Speaker 1: to kind of frame our conversation with the idea that
Speaker 1: Page perhaps comes to you for therapy. Right. So, Pages,
Speaker 1: the character played by Kerrie Washington, we see lots of
Speaker 1: different great conversations I think come up related to her
Speaker 1: father who has been incarcerated and is recently released and
Speaker 1: comes to stay with her. And they don't quite say
Speaker 1: how old her son is. I feel like he's like
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen ish Finn. So he stays with them, and
Speaker 1: then you know all the drama that ensues after that. So,
Speaker 1: if Paige came to you as a client, doctor, Lex,
Speaker 1: where do you think you might start with her?
Speaker 2: Oh my my gosh. So if Paige came to me
Speaker 2: as a client, first of all, Paige would tell me
Speaker 2: where she wanted to start because she would have already
Speaker 2: had everything figured out and would have tried to just
Speaker 2: use me as a sounding board, right as somebody who
Speaker 2: could like echo back or mirror back. And for folks
Speaker 2: who don't know therapists who see other therapists, sometimes there's
Speaker 2: this expectation that you already have all of the knowledge
Speaker 2: and so you can work these things out yourselves. That's
Speaker 2: not true. You do need somebody to walk with you.
Speaker 2: So with Paige, I'd start pretty much where all family
Speaker 2: therapists start with. In the genogram, I want to map
Speaker 2: out her family. I want to look at any diagnosis
Speaker 2: that she thinks other family members should have. We see
Speaker 2: that she has some struggles with both her parental units
Speaker 2: we don't really learn much about, like grandparents. And then
Speaker 2: I want to talk about her son and her relationship
Speaker 2: with her son and what that looks like for her.
Speaker 2: And then all of these romantic partnerships and the fact
Speaker 2: that she's a part of an affair as well, and
Speaker 2: how those are affecting all of the systems that she
Speaker 2: is really valuating the most.
Speaker 1: I love that doctor lex and I want to stay
Speaker 1: with this idea of a therapist in therapy for a second,
Speaker 1: because I do think we see that. So that is
Speaker 1: the one thing I think that really could have taken
Speaker 1: this show to the next level for me was to
Speaker 1: see her in therapy or maybe even supervision, right, because
Speaker 1: it is very clear that she has all this self awareness,
Speaker 1: Like in addition to seeing clients in a practice, it
Speaker 1: looks like she also does a lot on social media.
Speaker 1: So she will do these what looks to be like
Speaker 1: an ig live or a TikTok live right, sharing information
Speaker 1: about stuff like attachment theory, and you know, all of
Speaker 1: this stuff, and you can also see the stuff going
Speaker 1: on in her personal life does impact what's happening with
Speaker 1: our clients, Like our clients will often say something that
Speaker 1: it feels like strikes a chord with something going on
Speaker 1: in her personal life. And so can you say a
Speaker 1: little bit more about therapists in therapy some of the
Speaker 1: barriers that I think sometimes come up. You already talks
Speaker 1: about sometimes feeling like therapists will just want a sounding board.
Speaker 1: But what else do you see or notice when therapists
Speaker 1: are actually in therapy for themselves.
Speaker 2: Absolutely here were her friends or cohort maids. Right, So
Speaker 2: as therapists, we have friends that are also therapists, We
Speaker 2: have other people, we have supervisors. When we're like, ooh,
Speaker 2: this case is hard, or my own stuff is being
Speaker 2: triggered ethically, we are bound to figure that stuff out
Speaker 2: so we don't do harm to our clients. And that
Speaker 2: part of her life just wasn't filmed here. We didn't
Speaker 2: see her going to her friends and her colleagues with
Speaker 2: the stuff that was a mess for her, especially when
Speaker 2: she turned over that brilliant ted talk like page got
Speaker 2: hit with waves of stuff that was not easy. And
Speaker 2: so therapists and therapy, I always say that if I'm
Speaker 2: going to therapy, you have to be a better therapist
Speaker 2: than me, because I need to know that I'm not
Speaker 2: just gonna walk all over you. I'm not gonna know
Speaker 2: the next intervention that you're gonna use, because if that
Speaker 2: was the case, maybe I could apply it. I need
Speaker 2: somebody to see my blind sides. And we didn't see
Speaker 2: a lot of that with Paige when she definitely had
Speaker 2: some blind spots and they got poked. They got poked
Speaker 2: quite a bit throughout all of the season.
Speaker 1: Okay, so if we're getting started with your Gina Graham,
Speaker 1: I think the place that it feels most natural and
Speaker 1: most impactful. The start is in the relationship with her father,
Speaker 1: because that is the center of this show. So again,
Speaker 1: her father, it seems, has had bouts of being incarcerated.
Speaker 1: So it looks like I think the latest stint was
Speaker 1: like sixteen or seventeen years he had been incarcerated. So
Speaker 1: what kinds of things would you want to be kind
Speaker 1: of looking at or questioning her or helping her to
Speaker 1: process related to her relationship with her now?
Speaker 2: So I would look at the relationship actually between her
Speaker 2: parents first, because we got that one like really odd
Speaker 2: throwaway about her mom at that party and the level
Speaker 2: of abandonment from there. And then we also had a
Speaker 2: father who also she felt like was abandoning her by
Speaker 2: going back and forth to prison. And so in looking
Speaker 2: at that relationship, I would wonder, what has made you
Speaker 2: feel secure? What has made you want this relationship because
Speaker 2: we see Dad keeps coming back and trying to be
Speaker 2: there and wanting to do things differently. And if anybody
Speaker 2: actually has a more secure attachment out of anybody, I
Speaker 2: think it was Dad. I think Edwin did have like
Speaker 2: I'm wanted, I am valuable, I want to be connected,
Speaker 2: I'm not anxious about it. I just need to be consistent,
Speaker 2: whereas she's like, I'm really nervous about you being here.
Speaker 2: I'm really nervous that you're going to go away again.
Speaker 2: I can't trust that you're going to be here. And
Speaker 2: we see that trickle out through both with Finn and
Speaker 2: her relationship with her son, who has now become more dismissive,
Speaker 2: and it's like, all right, well, if we're attached, if
Speaker 2: we're not, I'm cool either way, because I don't know.
Speaker 2: My mom is so anxious about being close. And then
Speaker 2: also with her romantic relationships, she's never sure if she's
Speaker 2: ever going to be abandoned. So I would have started
Speaker 2: there when she first started feeling that abandonment, specifically from
Speaker 2: her father, because I think her mother automatically abandoned her
Speaker 2: very early on, and this was the one person who
Speaker 2: was trying to grasp on too until she got with
Speaker 2: her foster mom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, doctor Lexon. I wonder why we didn't
Speaker 1: hear more about the birth mom. And I know you
Speaker 1: know that was not designed to be like the center
Speaker 1: of the show, but it did feel very like, oh,
Speaker 1: we just randomly hear, like why birth mom is not
Speaker 1: in her life, but there's no more around it. So
Speaker 1: staying with this idea of the mother figures or the
Speaker 1: women who have kind of had a part in raising her,
Speaker 1: we hear very early on Page talk about being left
Speaker 1: with Nadine, who it sounds like was Edwin's like long
Speaker 1: term on and off again girlfriend who helped to raise
Speaker 1: Page for much of her life. But then also missus Nelson,
Speaker 1: who is her foster mom, who she talks about really
Speaker 1: loving and feeling very supported by. But we clearly see
Speaker 1: there is a very like tense, tenuous relationship with Nadine.
Speaker 1: And even though she describes a loving relationship with the
Speaker 1: foster mom, she hasn't talked to her in some time.
Speaker 1: And I don't know that we ever got any class
Speaker 1: already around like why she hadn't talked with her? What
Speaker 1: did you make of that in the relationship with those
Speaker 1: women in her life?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, So Nadine seemed very much about self
Speaker 2: and then I'm taking care of this other child, right.
Speaker 2: I do think she loved Page through and through, and
Speaker 2: I think also Nadine had a really hard time. The
Speaker 2: man she loved is gone. She's left with a kid
Speaker 2: that she's trying to raise and Nadine, I don't know
Speaker 2: anybody else didn't seem like the Yes, I wake up
Speaker 2: today and I want to be a mom type. She's like,
Speaker 2: I want to live my life and I have this
Speaker 2: kid who I will have living my life with me,
Speaker 2: versus centering her life around that child, which isn't right
Speaker 2: or wrong, it's just not I don't think what Page needed.
Speaker 2: Paige was looking for a more maternal somebody who was
Speaker 2: going to be at home making chicken soup and dumplings,
Speaker 2: somebody who was going to be a bit softer. So
Speaker 2: she wanted a bit of a softer landing place, which
Speaker 2: she got with missus Nelson. But I was also surprised
Speaker 2: because missus Nelson was also very critical, right, and I
Speaker 2: think that added to her anxiety. There was expectations, and
Speaker 2: because Page felt like somebody who was less than because
Speaker 2: she was abandoned so much, or because she became from
Speaker 2: Nadine who didn't have traditional values, then she's like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: what do I do? I need to make sure that
Speaker 2: I'm good enough, and that is a rhetoric that has
Speaker 2: lived throughout the narrative of her life. I need to
Speaker 2: be good enough, how do I prove that I'm good enough?
Speaker 2: And I think it all started to stem from who
Speaker 2: really wants me?
Speaker 1: Very good points there, Doctor Leggs. Can you say more
Speaker 1: about where you saw that not good enough rhetoric pop
Speaker 1: up for her throughout the show?
Speaker 2: Oh where do we gain? Right? So in the beginning
Speaker 2: we saw that when she was talking to her followers
Speaker 2: and she's really like, beholden to this social media following
Speaker 2: and she just wants to show up for them and
Speaker 2: be good enough for them and have all the right
Speaker 2: things to say. We see it with her son and
Speaker 2: she's like, oh, how do I keep engaging with you?
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of parents of teenagers feel
Speaker 2: that way. They're like, what did I do wrong all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, or how come I'm not good enough
Speaker 2: for you now? When that kid is really developing into
Speaker 2: their own sense of self outside of family at that time,
Speaker 2: and so that rejection feels personal. We see with her
Speaker 2: lover who is married to somebody else and not recognizing
Speaker 2: that she's really the side chick and you're the side chick.
Speaker 2: What demands are you making of this person? And being
Speaker 2: strung along for quite a while and trying to be
Speaker 2: okay with it. So we see her trying to be
Speaker 2: good enough in so many realms, and then she's like,
Speaker 2: am I good enough for my dad? Is my dad
Speaker 2: actually going to be proud of me? Am I good
Speaker 2: enough for him to stay out of jail? Right? And
Speaker 2: she's trying to prove herself, like, look at all of
Speaker 2: the things I can do. When they bought the house
Speaker 2: and she kept getting turned down for houses and she
Speaker 2: finally got one, it's like, look what I can do
Speaker 2: for us. I can do it all. See, I'm good enough.
Speaker 2: And so that constant trying to prove herself in every way,
Speaker 2: shape and form. I think even the sex scene, Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh with the new boo and she's like she
Speaker 2: and him joined the sex thing, like is this good?
Speaker 2: You're good, We're having a good time. This is great, right,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, not anymore. So it's a sex therapist.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, there's so much there, all of it's
Speaker 2: pouring out. But it was consistent throughout the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, one of the other things we
Speaker 1: have not talked about, doctor Lex but we definitely have
Speaker 1: to was the beautiful way I think that they weaved
Speaker 1: in this inner child kind of monologue. First of all,
Speaker 1: the actors are adorable, Like the young people actors were
Speaker 1: so so cute and so so good. But I really
Speaker 1: appreciated like this idea that you know, like we're always
Speaker 1: kind of trying to take care of the little person
Speaker 1: we once were, and we don't always see it illustrated
Speaker 1: in the way that I think we did hear. So
Speaker 1: when you said that about like the good enough peace
Speaker 1: and like am I good enough for my dad to stay?
Speaker 1: I really resonated with this idea that the little page,
Speaker 1: how that was really how she was feeling, and how
Speaker 1: children often don't have language or the understandings that kind
Speaker 1: of it makes sense of like why is dad leaving again? Right?
Speaker 1: And they often turned that on themselves. What else would
Speaker 1: you say about the way we saw this kind of
Speaker 1: inner child dialogue really kind of weave throughout the story.
Speaker 2: I wept at this inner child dialogue. And I think
Speaker 2: it was something specifically just about blackness, right when I
Speaker 2: think of other therapy folks, and therapy was basically founded
Speaker 2: by white people for white people, right, And all of
Speaker 2: the founders except for like Mnuchen are white, so and
Speaker 2: I think Munuchin was like white presenting that being said,
Speaker 2: we would be talking about inner child or speaking to
Speaker 2: ancestors and people would think we were schizophrenic. And here
Speaker 2: we see a purposeful use of that inner child. And
Speaker 2: so I think the biggest moment was when Paige found
Speaker 2: baby Edwin under the bed and it represented a little
Speaker 2: black boy and you know, being from Georgia, being a
Speaker 2: little black girl who also used to live in Texas.
Speaker 2: And I am a twin and my twin is a
Speaker 2: darker skinned black boy who was not always safe. And
Speaker 2: when we learn more about that story and we understand
Speaker 2: why he's under the bed because he's not safe, and
Speaker 2: the fact that she's like, I see you and I
Speaker 2: will help keep you safe, I get goosebubs now talking
Speaker 2: about it. So yes, I think we're all walking around
Speaker 2: with these little people that have been hurt. And you know,
Speaker 2: the adage goes, you get stuck at the age that
Speaker 2: you got hurt the most dead, and we see that
Speaker 2: in adults. We see people acting out like ooh, is
Speaker 2: this mature forty two year old doctor Joy right now?
Speaker 2: Or is this eight year old doctor Joy right? Is
Speaker 2: this eight year old lex I got hurt? And we
Speaker 2: see that so that healing that happened in those check ins,
Speaker 2: those internal check ins, like hold on some piece of me,
Speaker 2: and we actually call it like a wounded child in
Speaker 2: a couple of therapy modalities, when we're saying, hey, your
Speaker 2: introjections are acting up. Your wounded children are acting up,
Speaker 2: and everybody else comes around them to try and protect them.
Speaker 2: Our managers come around to try and protect them. Our
Speaker 2: extreme behaviors, which we call firefighters, come to try and
Speaker 2: help protect them too, because these wounded little people are
Speaker 2: acting up. And so to see that represent it so
Speaker 2: poignantly in film, I thought it was Chef's kiss perfection.
Speaker 2: Because everybody has that piece of themselves that still is
Speaker 2: wounded and needs to be tended to.
Speaker 1: So I would imagine that somebody like Paige would be
Speaker 1: right for doing some of this wounded child work in therapy.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about what that looks like like,
Speaker 1: how do you help a client identify this part of themselves?
Speaker 1: And what would that look like? Maybe with Page?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so with Page, I'd want to think
Speaker 2: about some of the core pieces that people are born with.
Speaker 2: People are born compassionate and caring and creative and chrismatic
Speaker 2: and life stumps that out of us. If you ask
Speaker 2: seventeen adults right now to draw you a picture of
Speaker 2: a horse, sixteen of them are gonna be like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't draw very well, and they're gonna apologize for it.
Speaker 2: If you ask seventeen kindergarteners to draw you a picture
Speaker 2: of a horse, they're gonna draw you a picture of
Speaker 2: a horse. Okay, it's gonna look like a dog, cat
Speaker 2: and rabit in between. But they won't drop you a
Speaker 2: picture and his horse, right, And so something gets lost
Speaker 2: along the way. And I'd want to explore that with
Speaker 2: Paige if when she started dropping this confidence in herself,
Speaker 2: when she stopped believing in her creativity, and wonder how
Speaker 2: does she get that back? And so I think the
Speaker 2: pandemic taught us we start to repairent ourselves in different ways.
Speaker 2: We've seen a return to nostalgia. So what do you
Speaker 2: do to heal your inner child? Well, like I got
Speaker 2: to go swing on the swings in the playground because
Speaker 2: my neighborhood was never safe enough to do that. We
Speaker 2: ain't even have swings, It was just changed because people
Speaker 2: kept sealing them. Right. Or I enrolled in an art class,
Speaker 2: or I finally got to do a meetup dot com
Speaker 2: something or other. And yeah, I really thought this was
Speaker 2: cool as a kid, and I still find it kind
Speaker 2: of cool. And so we give them permission to start
Speaker 2: to explore the things that they had to put down
Speaker 2: or things that were forced from them. And so at Paige,
Speaker 2: I'd want to do that with her, especially when she
Speaker 2: was talking about her house and building what her house
Speaker 2: looked like. I liked the paneling, and I liked this
Speaker 2: and wait, but I like this too. So something that
Speaker 2: would challenge her not to be in control but to
Speaker 2: be able to just enjoy the experience of something. I'd
Speaker 2: want her to get involved in to gauge her anxiety
Speaker 2: through it, and so she could be more comfortable by
Speaker 2: not being in control.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about reparenting, doctor lex I feel
Speaker 1: like that is one of those terms that feels like
Speaker 1: has entered the popular lexicon now, and I don't know
Speaker 1: that people always know what that means. What does that
Speaker 1: look like to reparent ourselves?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I do think it's one of those terms,
Speaker 2: right that's just entered our lexicon. But that being said,
Speaker 2: play on my name, right, reparenting this is idea that
Speaker 2: there were gaps in your parenting. Our parents did the
Speaker 2: best that they could what they had. And I think
Speaker 2: it was Tdjakes who said your parent was given sixty,
Speaker 2: but you needed eighty. But all your parent could give
Speaker 2: was sixty. They were giving you all that they had
Speaker 2: and it still might not have been enough. And so
Speaker 2: there are gaps in how we were raised. There are
Speaker 2: gaps and things that we under nderstood, and trying to
Speaker 2: reframe how we grew up is part of reparenting yourself.
Speaker 2: It's part of healing that in her childhood was hurt,
Speaker 2: who felt abandoned or not good enough or made to
Speaker 2: be too much. As that Facebook fad went around for
Speaker 2: all the people who had talked too much on their
Speaker 2: report cards. Right, maybe that's your gift now, right if
Speaker 2: doctor Joy had talked too much and now doctor Joy
Speaker 2: has an award winning podcast. So that's part of reparenting.
Speaker 2: It's healing and knowing that these are gifts and not deficits,
Speaker 2: and realizing how you can use those gifts. If you
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with doctor Lex after the break,
Speaker 1: you really called out in the beginning, like as a
Speaker 1: part of your genogram work with Page, you would want
Speaker 1: to look at like her relationships with romantic partners and
Speaker 1: how she has found herself as a mistress, though I
Speaker 1: don't know that, like you said, she didn't identify that way,
Speaker 1: like I don't think she put that together. So talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about like what we saw in terms
Speaker 1: of her relationships and what kinds of questions came up
Speaker 1: for you and what you would want to explore with
Speaker 1: page related to her relationships.
Speaker 2: I screamed at the screen. I was screaming. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you don't see this, your daddy, you don't see this right,
Speaker 2: because Nadine was never wiped up that we know about,
Speaker 2: but Nadine has been opened for sex. Nadine is holding
Speaker 2: and when down, Nadine got Edwin's fur coat from when food.
Speaker 2: That's for length, right, So I'm like, uh, are we
Speaker 2: not seeing the stability that she's so craving she's still
Speaker 2: not getting romantically. There's sex, and we know that it
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily the greatest of sex because she had sex
Speaker 2: with them later on and was like, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I'm good. So it wasn't even the pen that could
Speaker 2: get her back in despite the fact this man is
Speaker 2: out here making love to you and she's just like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm good. So we know that that wasn't what I
Speaker 2: was keeping. But it's the same emotional pull and push
Speaker 2: away of like do you want me? Okay, you're showing
Speaker 2: that you want me. Okay, I can wait. Do you
Speaker 2: want me again? And so she's doing the same thing
Speaker 2: that she did with her dad. If you really want me,
Speaker 2: you'll stay out of jail. If you really want me,
Speaker 2: you'll be here. Okay, I'll wait for you. Okay, I
Speaker 2: waited for you. You're showing me that you want me. And
Speaker 2: she did the same thing romantically. And I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it's not super Freudian. We're not going like everybody's gonna
Speaker 2: date their father and have Oedipus complex and electrocomplex. So
Speaker 2: what we're talking about is just the fact that those
Speaker 2: same systems and patterns that she saw are the same
Speaker 2: patterns that she's repeating. Because she didn't really know too
Speaker 2: much different, we didn't hear a lot about their relationships,
Speaker 2: so we don't really know what she saw in that relationship,
Speaker 2: but we do know that what she saw with her
Speaker 2: dad was this yello being back and forth, and that's
Speaker 2: exactly what her lover was doing with her because when
Speaker 2: she got with Mal, who was steady, that felt threatening,
Speaker 2: that felt too much, And even though that was quote
Speaker 2: unquote which she was supposed to want, it wasn't enough
Speaker 2: for her at that moment because as she started to heal,
Speaker 2: she realized that she wasn't ready for that either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that this goes back to earlier
Speaker 1: conversation around like how she was so self aware as
Speaker 1: a therapist but didn't always connect to how things were
Speaker 1: playing out in her own life. Right. So the show
Speaker 1: opens up with her doing this Instagram live about repetition compulsion, right,
Speaker 1: which means we kind of constantly find ourselves in the
Speaker 1: same pattern, trying to work through, typically something that didn't
Speaker 1: work out as a child. And so in her instance,
Speaker 1: it is this relationship with her father. But we never
Speaker 1: saw any insight into her connecting her relationship with Bill,
Speaker 1: I believe, the guy who was married. We never see
Speaker 1: her connect to the fact that her relationship with Bill
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways mirrors the relationship that Nadine
Speaker 1: had with and Win. So I do want to stay
Speaker 1: here about Mal because I instantly knew that they were
Speaker 1: going to try to put them together, Like even from
Speaker 1: the first scene you can tell that there's a chemistry
Speaker 1: between them on screen, and so you know he does,
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways on paper, look
Speaker 1: like somebody who would be really stable and who could
Speaker 1: help her develop maybe more secure attachment. But we do
Speaker 1: see that like this is not really what he's into. Now,
Speaker 1: what do you think happened here? Was it the kind
Speaker 1: of thing where it is like when you're so used
Speaker 1: to chaos, like steadiness feels uncomfortable or do you think
Speaker 1: there was something else happening in the relationship with her
Speaker 1: and mal oh?
Speaker 2: So Ma is securely attached, which means Ma wants connection
Speaker 2: and doesn't have a lot of anxiety about being connected
Speaker 2: or being left. So it's idea big word. Differentiation is
Speaker 2: what we use, right, So if you want to look
Speaker 2: it up, it's Bowen Bown differentiation. The fun thing about
Speaker 2: differentiation is you attract somebody that is similarly at your level.
Speaker 2: So we already know Ma has some poor boundaries because
Speaker 2: mal Is Dayton is Parole's daughter, Like, no, Joan and
Speaker 2: I can never date one of our client's daughters or
Speaker 2: your kids, like that's not appropriate for us, right, not
Speaker 2: appropriate for him either. But what we see with Paige
Speaker 2: is that she's doing a healing journey of herself, and
Speaker 2: so she's coming from that anxious attachment with Bill, but
Speaker 2: she's not on Mall's level yet. She hasn't healed enough
Speaker 2: for relinquishing her anxiety around connection because she has somebody
Speaker 2: saying I want you, I want to be here for you,
Speaker 2: and by all intents and purposes, that's what she's supposed
Speaker 2: to want, right, That's what we're all told we're supposed
Speaker 2: to want, especially as black women. You're supposed to want
Speaker 2: a good black man with a good job who wants
Speaker 2: you bick and for her. Right, then that's not what
Speaker 2: she needed, and she's finally realizing that. And I think
Speaker 2: that's where we came to the end is and the
Speaker 2: culmination of all of these men in her life, whether
Speaker 2: it's Finn, her father, Bill, is that she can be
Speaker 2: enough on her own, and so that rejection of Mall
Speaker 2: had to happen in order for her to realize, like, wait,
Speaker 2: I am good atough, just on my own two feet.
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, you know, and he had a
Speaker 1: good government job, so you know, you're definitely not supposed
Speaker 1: to let anybody go who had a nice, secure job.
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that we didn't really see her friends,
Speaker 1: but we do see STI, and I wasn't all the
Speaker 1: way sure of who Estie was, so like, it sounds
Speaker 1: like she was her realtor maybe slash lawyer, but maybe
Speaker 1: also foster sister and best friend. Is that your understanding
Speaker 1: of who she was?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got foster sister and my best friend
Speaker 2: growing up, who like she kind of got ripped from
Speaker 2: and had to really work to establish that relationship.
Speaker 1: Got it okay? So I think something else that likely
Speaker 1: Page would need to work on is the development of
Speaker 1: like connection with friends, because at the same party we
Speaker 1: see that she's hosting and I don't even know how
Speaker 1: close she was to this like colleague down the hall,
Speaker 1: but she ends up hosting the gender reveal party, right,
Speaker 1: and at this party we see, you know, people ask like, oh,
Speaker 1: how did you meet and then she's put in this
Speaker 1: weird predicament of having to say, like, okay, who he is,
Speaker 1: which then reveals like all this stuff about her father.
Speaker 1: But it does feel like there's difficulty with boundaries around
Speaker 1: like what do you share with people? And like in
Speaker 1: what ways is she working to connect with other people?
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you work with her on
Speaker 1: around like how do you meet new people in like
Speaker 1: what parts of your story are okay to share? And
Speaker 1: when she.
Speaker 2: Ain't want to throw our party, we know she ain't
Speaker 2: want to throw, Like that woman was looking at her
Speaker 2: like can you help me? She got guilted into trying
Speaker 2: to help. That's what that was. And that was her work, colleague, right,
Speaker 2: because she owns her own practice, and again, as we know,
Speaker 2: on your own practice can be kind of lonely. But
Speaker 2: she seems to print office space in a place with
Speaker 2: other therapists. So that being said, I think that the
Speaker 2: oversharing and boundaries, I would probably I want to slow
Speaker 2: page down in general, just slow down, right, And instead
Speaker 2: of her treating everything like an audition where people accept
Speaker 2: and like her, I'd like to put the power back
Speaker 2: to her. I'm like, you're choosing people to be in
Speaker 2: your life. I think she's had a haphazard kind of
Speaker 2: people dropping in or her being dropped on people and
Speaker 2: her having to try and attach to those people rather
Speaker 2: than her ever having the ability to choose. You get
Speaker 2: to choose who's in your life. And I think people
Speaker 2: mix up boundaries boundaries. Aren't you controlling somebody else's behavior.
Speaker 2: Boundaries are what you're going to do when somebody else's
Speaker 2: behavior persists. And that's where I think she gets a
Speaker 2: little bit misconstrued and turn around, because she wants to
Speaker 2: be wanted, and when she wants to be wanted, she
Speaker 2: wants to be the brightest and the best and the
Speaker 2: smartest and the prettiest and all of those things all
Speaker 2: wrapped in one, because that's what we're told people want,
Speaker 2: and yet she suffers for it. She suffers with anxiety,
Speaker 2: She suffers thinking that are these real relationships? Are these
Speaker 2: relationships of sustenance? Because I don't see a lot where
Speaker 2: she gets a lot back from other people. Right. There
Speaker 2: is her foster sister, there is her dad, there's Finn somewhat,
Speaker 2: but Finn gets put in this kind of parental role
Speaker 2: or friend role more than child role. So she has
Speaker 2: to learn one, you're actually in control here, you get
Speaker 2: to choose who's in your life. And then two, how
Speaker 2: is it being reciprocated? Are you the only one doing
Speaker 2: for people? Are also people doing for you? Because that's
Speaker 2: a real quick way to get used up when there's
Speaker 2: no reciprocity with you giving out all of your caregiving knowledge, charisma,
Speaker 2: and not getting anything back.
Speaker 1: I love that you started with slowing her down, because
Speaker 1: as I'm thinking back about watching the show, I realized
Speaker 1: like it felt very hurried, right, Like, not in a
Speaker 1: way that I feel like the pacing was off, but
Speaker 1: like she felt like she was just going, like there
Speaker 1: was always some fire I think to put out, And
Speaker 1: so I think the slowing down would really allow her
Speaker 1: to be more connected to the effect part, like the
Speaker 1: emotion feeling piece, which I think it's also something that
Speaker 1: happens when therapists go to therapy, is that there's like
Speaker 1: this intellectualization of things and like you know, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is how I'm thinking in like a very cognitive
Speaker 1: kind of space as opposed to like how does this
Speaker 1: feel like? Where do I feel this anxiety kind of
Speaker 1: in my body? So I think a slowing down of
Speaker 1: her really would be helpful. But I'm also aware as
Speaker 1: we're talking that it feels like there's a lot for
Speaker 1: her to kind of work through, right Like the relationship
Speaker 1: that she's had with dad and Mom being gone, I
Speaker 1: feel like has left her very unanchored, ungrounded, and that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of skills that you like have
Speaker 1: difficulty developing when that parental foundation is not really firm.
Speaker 1: But I think we both work from a strengths perspective
Speaker 1: writ and would not want her coming in feeling like
Speaker 1: there's nothing that I do well right, So, in what
Speaker 1: kinds of ways would you also work to kind of
Speaker 1: highlight the strengths that we saw her page so that
Speaker 1: she would have enough of a foundation to do some
Speaker 1: of this work that we know would need to.
Speaker 2: Absolutely and I'll tell you that I identified most with
Speaker 2: the Ted talk moment, So that part where she's about
Speaker 2: to go do this really big thing and gets just
Speaker 2: catastrophic news that has rocked her world, and she goes
Speaker 2: out and she has this talk prepared and my favorite party,
Speaker 2: she just sits on the stool. She sits on the
Speaker 2: stool and she's like, you know what, let me be completely,
Speaker 2: one hundred percent honest and talk to you about this.
Speaker 2: I was so proud in that moment because she wasn't performing,
Speaker 2: she wasn't just giving tidbits. It was a real processing.
Speaker 2: And so with her strengths, I think that's one of
Speaker 2: her strengths that she cannot only take in information, but
Speaker 2: she can process it and make it digestible so other
Speaker 2: folks can understand it. And we all know that everybody
Speaker 2: doesn't go to therapy. Some people treat social media as therapy.
Speaker 2: Some people don't have access, some people are scared, and
Speaker 2: she's able to really give people a platform of understanding.
Speaker 2: I also think she is so caring, right So, even
Speaker 2: when her and her son are disagreement, she's like, wait, no,
Speaker 2: I see you, and she can acknowledge her faults there,
Speaker 2: and same with her father and she's like, hey, I
Speaker 2: messed up here. Here goes this food that I never
Speaker 2: ever ever eat and will touch. But I wanted to
Speaker 2: make it for you to let you know that you're special.
Speaker 2: And I think she's really good at that of letting
Speaker 2: people know that they're actually special to her, despite the
Speaker 2: fact that she doesn't really always feel that special to others.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, doctor Leggs. So let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about how you might want to support
Speaker 1: her in her relationship with Finn, with her child. What
Speaker 1: kinds of things do you think would be important to
Speaker 1: talk with her about there?
Speaker 2: So Finn is hard right one, because we don't ever
Speaker 2: see Finn's father figure. We don't know what that relationship
Speaker 2: is like, we know, Finn seems to be somewhat of
Speaker 2: an introvert. I call myself the coolest nerd you'll ever meet,
Speaker 2: And so Finn also seems to be on that kind
Speaker 2: of like anime nerdy category with the card game that
Speaker 2: he plays and purposely loses right when he's playing with
Speaker 2: somebody else. So there's some confidence building the fact that
Speaker 2: Finn isn't necessarily driving around the city yet and has
Speaker 2: some trepidations and fears, and so looking at that relationship,
Speaker 2: I would want to look at that control right because
Speaker 2: her anxious attachment has made him want to detach. We
Speaker 2: don't see him with a whole lot of friends. Edwin's like,
Speaker 2: what's going on? Let me help out here, Son, like
Speaker 2: this is cool, and he starts to build a friendship
Speaker 2: with his grandfather, but his mom tends to be just
Speaker 2: over controlling the factory. He can come home and skip
Speaker 2: school and she's kind of unbeknownst to it. But I'm
Speaker 2: sure he's getting good grades. I'm sure he's not really
Speaker 2: struggling because he's really smart, and I don't see her
Speaker 2: facilitating enough of that. Here's how you can be independent
Speaker 2: in the ways that I think will suit you over life.
Speaker 2: It's more about, hey, you're still my favorite son, I'm
Speaker 2: still your favorite mom, right okay? And I love you
Speaker 2: so much and you love me so much, And so
Speaker 2: there's a level of childishness in their relationship. I think
Speaker 2: Finn is starting to grow out of. I need some
Speaker 2: more support in like going towards adulthood.
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with doctor Lex after the break,
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention this doctor Lex, but that moment
Speaker 1: with her ted talk felt like a very black girl
Speaker 1: moment of being put in this huge professional opportunity right
Speaker 1: in which I think a lot of us find ourselves
Speaker 1: and then like you getting this bad news and then
Speaker 1: having to struggle between like Okay, how do I kind
Speaker 1: of put my cape on and like still go show
Speaker 1: up and do this thing, but her instead choosing to
Speaker 1: just be very authentic in that moment and say like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm struggling here and let me just be real with you.
Speaker 1: And I feel like if it had not been that bad,
Speaker 1: she never would have made that choice, right, Like, if
Speaker 1: she had more time to kind of prepare, Like I
Speaker 1: think we know what she would have done, which is
Speaker 1: typically what we do is write you know, like, let
Speaker 1: me just grin and buried for this next twenty five
Speaker 1: minutes and then I can deal with the fire.
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, that news rocked her to her core because
Speaker 2: it's the thing she was most afraid of. Her dad
Speaker 2: is now abandoning her again and she don't know the details,
Speaker 2: and that's why she wanted to punish him for it too.
Speaker 2: She was like, I'm not going to get him. He
Speaker 2: can sit and right. Nope. Right. And meanwhile the son
Speaker 2: is like, I need help. And again, she raised him,
Speaker 2: so he's this great, independent, fierce and also supremely ethical.
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, this is right, this is wrong. Let's
Speaker 2: talk about it. Let's figure it out. What my mom
Speaker 2: is doing is wrong, and that's raising a strong kid
Speaker 2: with her own sense of self. But yes, she was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm flailing right now, and let me tell you all
Speaker 2: that I'm flailing and letting you see that I have
Speaker 2: flaws and I have hardships, and here's how I might
Speaker 2: be able to walk through them. But that was her
Speaker 2: worst fear come true because now her dad has left
Speaker 2: her again.
Speaker 1: Right, so I do want to go back to We
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the inner child dialogue that
Speaker 1: we saw, which I really appreciated them, including like this
Speaker 1: kind of childhood moment for Edwin because before he had
Speaker 1: gone back to his hometown, we had not known a
Speaker 1: lot about what was his backstory and like how did
Speaker 1: he become the person that he was? And I think
Speaker 1: that even though it was like a small thread, I
Speaker 1: do think that there is an interesting conversation and an
Speaker 1: important one to be had around racism and how it
Speaker 1: impacts our mental health. The racism that happens and the
Speaker 1: way our mental health has impacted then intersects with the
Speaker 1: justice system or in justice system in a lot of ways, right,
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think that we can probably
Speaker 1: draw a line from this early childhood experience of a
Speaker 1: racist experience with his incarceration. Is there more that you
Speaker 1: wanted to say about that or kinds of things that
Speaker 1: you would maybe help page kind of process related to
Speaker 1: her dad's background and how that led to who he became.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so one. I'm gonna go ahead and own it.
Speaker 2: I was so angry at Paige for not going full
Speaker 2: caring on that man in the records department. I said,
Speaker 2: girlf you won't go use all the degrees and big
Speaker 2: words on these country people like, where's all of that?
Speaker 2: I need all of that in your throat to come
Speaker 2: out right and protect your daddy. But also shed a
Speaker 2: tear because seeing Edwin's so frustrated at trying to do
Speaker 2: right just represented millions of black folks, millions of poor folks,
Speaker 2: millions of uneducated folks across the country right because as
Speaker 2: the US we have one of the highest incarceration rates
Speaker 2: in the entire world, and saying like, hey, I just
Speaker 2: need to get this thing so I can get a license,
Speaker 2: and now you're telling me I can't because all of
Speaker 2: these laws that are put in place and these systems
Speaker 2: prevent help, which is so backwards. So I did shed
Speaker 2: a tear. And also like I have family members who
Speaker 2: have been incarcerated, and trying to see them being able
Speaker 2: to put their lives back together again with all of
Speaker 2: these constraints. It's no wonder why it feels almost impossible,
Speaker 2: because it is almost impossible, especially in the Deep South,
Speaker 2: especially with people who were still in control and power.
Speaker 2: And I felt for Finn when the white man talked
Speaker 2: about them being moon crickets. Now, look, I have literally
Speaker 2: been chased by the KKK. I have never been called
Speaker 2: a moon cricket. Okay, so that's the old old phrase
Speaker 2: that Edwin talked about, and Finn's like what And even
Speaker 2: when we see Finn with an identity crisis, like he
Speaker 2: thinks I'm white, hold on what he thinks I'm white?
Speaker 2: But seeing Edwin trying to get his life together, and
Speaker 2: we also didn't talk about like whatever the loss was
Speaker 2: that Edwin experienced with his mama. Right his mama was
Speaker 2: dragged out of the house and taken by the police,
Speaker 2: the people who were supposed to protect and serve, and
Speaker 2: wasn't brought back to the next day but had a
Speaker 2: limp and then they moved. There was so much unspoken
Speaker 2: right there. There was so much unsaid, and that's where
Speaker 2: the series moved really fast for me too. I'd like,
Speaker 2: so we just dropping down and okay, and this is
Speaker 2: really deep, really fast and really scary, and you want
Speaker 2: to figure out why Edwin has a problem with police
Speaker 2: officers and doesn't feel safe with them or the system
Speaker 2: that they represent when you consider what they did to
Speaker 2: his mama, and he completely blanked it out. He's like, nope,
Speaker 2: I don't remember too much, so we know it was trauma.
Speaker 2: So I think that's so important to highlight with Paige Page.
Speaker 2: You know, she's just not learning this about her dad,
Speaker 2: and she's just now learning all of these different aspects
Speaker 2: of himself. So who knows what else she doesn't know
Speaker 2: and what else she's operating on a deficit.
Speaker 1: From right, Absolutely, I appreciate you adding that context, and
Speaker 1: you're right, like that happened in what like maybe episode six,
Speaker 1: and then there were only like two more to go,
Speaker 1: so we didn't get a lot of exploration there. But
Speaker 1: the series this season at least wraps up with so
Speaker 1: Edwin has been released. So it looks like Maul has
Speaker 1: made a call to like get him released, because you know,
Speaker 1: it was kind of like a bogus charge in the
Speaker 1: beginning anyway, So he has been really and it looks
Speaker 1: as if Page and Finn will definitely Finn want him
Speaker 1: to come back and live at the house, but he
Speaker 1: is feeling like some trepidation around, like I've messed up again, right,
Speaker 1: So we hear even his self talk of like I
Speaker 1: gotta do this myself and I can't believe I disappointed
Speaker 1: you again, you know, So we see him being very
Speaker 1: critical of himself, and in the end we see his
Speaker 1: old running partners uncle Fox and the other guy pick
Speaker 1: him up and say, hey, you know, like do you
Speaker 1: need a live kind of thing? So we leave on
Speaker 1: a bit of a cliffhanger of like, Okay, what's going
Speaker 1: to happen? What did you make of how the series
Speaker 1: ended in how would you talk with Paige about where
Speaker 1: she finds herself with her father? Now?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it was a cliffhanger. My heart was
Speaker 2: in a chest, like, Okay, what decisions are we making?
Speaker 2: What are we doing? Because we already know he'd brought
Speaker 2: the car back and that was a decision where he
Speaker 2: felt destitute again. And I would say that Edwin rustles
Speaker 2: with the same issues at Page. That's around control, and
Speaker 2: Edwin's most of his life other people have been controlling
Speaker 2: what he can do, what he can eat, where he
Speaker 2: can go, where he can sleep, especially being in prison
Speaker 2: for so long, and then on the outside, those systems
Speaker 2: feel like they're controlling him because he oftentimes feels powerless,
Speaker 2: and so he's trying to do as much as he
Speaker 2: can to acrue power. Very similar to Page. So at
Speaker 2: the end, I'm hoping that Edwin wanting to be on
Speaker 2: his own, He's starting to learn that he is in power,
Speaker 2: that he has the power to make these decisions and choices.
Speaker 2: And we hear him say that. When Finn was like,
Speaker 2: it was my fault I asked you to drive, He's like, no, Finn,
Speaker 2: I should have told you no. I should have owned
Speaker 2: that decision. That's the responsibility that Paige has been looking
Speaker 2: for him to take for so long. I made this
Speaker 2: decision to leave you. He was like, I left you
Speaker 2: in Nadine. That was good enough. And then he realized
Speaker 2: it wasn't good enough because it wasn't me. And then
Speaker 2: he's showing that how much he values them. Right, he
Speaker 2: doesn't want Finn and Page to get in trouble, but
Speaker 2: more than that, he doesn't want them to be disappointed
Speaker 2: in him. And so he started to realize, wait, it's
Speaker 2: not just me fending by myself alone out here, which
Speaker 2: is how he's always kind of felt. He realizes, like,
Speaker 2: I have people that I am accountable for and accountable too,
Speaker 2: including myself, and I need to know I can be
Speaker 2: accountable to myself before I can be accountable to other people.
Speaker 2: And that's okay. There's a lot to strapolate from the ending,
Speaker 2: but that's what I'm going with because I'm gonna keep
Speaker 2: hope that that's what this means.
Speaker 1: You know, I love that doctor leg We are gonna
Speaker 1: keep hope alive. And you know, something you just said
Speaker 1: made me think about like his struggle for wanting to
Speaker 1: be independent, right and like to be in control of
Speaker 1: his own destiny in his own life, which is why
Speaker 1: I think we saw him struggle with like keeping the
Speaker 1: traditional job at the thrift store, and then we know
Speaker 1: it didn't work out at the restaurant. But I was
Speaker 1: not clear, and it felt like there was some allusion
Speaker 1: to do you think what happened with his ice cream
Speaker 1: truck was that the guys he was playing poker with,
Speaker 1: or those guys that were in his circle were the
Speaker 1: ones that ended up stealing his ice cream truck? Did
Speaker 1: you get that same sense?
Speaker 2: I thought so, But I want to I told you
Speaker 2: i'd I'd be trying to do rainbows and puppy dog tails. Okay,
Speaker 2: but I thought so because I'm like hoh with jack
Speaker 2: an old ice cream fridge, and it was just another
Speaker 2: thing in the system that you know, quote unquote kept
Speaker 2: the man down. So I was hoping it wasn't them,
Speaker 2: and I know they want him back, right, and the
Speaker 2: life does that the life pulls you right back. They
Speaker 2: want people who work and move. Edwin was really good
Speaker 2: at that. He's an old head, he has connections, he
Speaker 2: knows how to get around. But yes, I had that
Speaker 2: sense too, because they don't seem to be supportive of
Speaker 2: his journey to be straight and narrow.
Speaker 1: Right right, which is interesting, right, Like you know they
Speaker 1: know he's on parole and like having to be in
Speaker 1: a place where you know things are stable, and like
Speaker 1: we see the whole reason he ends up staying with
Speaker 1: Pages because they're like outside playing and there's like a
Speaker 1: gun on the table, right, and so you know, you're
Speaker 1: right like that, it is important to kind of then
Speaker 1: think about, like, Okay, who is in your circle and
Speaker 1: do they really want the best for you or do
Speaker 1: they want you to kind of just join them because
Speaker 1: that's where they're also at in life exactly.
Speaker 2: And again I'm going to bring this back to echoing Page,
Speaker 2: who is in your life that is trying to lift
Speaker 2: you up, that is trying to provide stability for you too,
Speaker 2: because you're providing it for everybody else. And so Edwin
Speaker 2: and Page are walking these very parallel paths next to
Speaker 2: one another while still trying to connect and they missed
Speaker 2: each other a couple of times, but those moments of
Speaker 2: connection were just so great that they were like, Wow,
Speaker 2: this is what it could be if we keep at it,
Speaker 2: this is what it could be. And I think that
Speaker 2: is amazing and one on film absolutely brilliant again Chef's Kiss.
Speaker 2: But then also what hope did that give to folks? Right?
Speaker 2: How many of us don't know our biological fathers, or
Speaker 2: how many of us haven't been able to connect with folks,
Speaker 2: and how many of us are still trying to steadily
Speaker 2: heal so we can connect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of layers there, and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of things for us to kind of help examine
Speaker 1: in our own lives. Were there any themes or things
Speaker 1: that we didn't talk about that you felt especially important
Speaker 1: to kind of talk about? Our highlight for people today?
Speaker 2: If your therapist shares that much of themselves with you
Speaker 2: in therapy session side of them, because page she's doing
Speaker 2: a lot of oversharing that, I'm not sure it was
Speaker 2: always the benefit of her client. Now we all share
Speaker 2: a little bit of therapists, right, And I think your
Speaker 2: therapist needs to be a whole human. They can't just
Speaker 2: be this amorphous amaton that walks around like your therapist farts,
Speaker 2: your therapist snores. They are whole humans. Okay, we're whole humans,
Speaker 2: and the question is what they're sharing is it beneficial
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 1: Well, and you even heard her client, because we only
Speaker 1: saw her work with one client throughout the series, you
Speaker 1: heard her client say like, I follow you on Instagram,
Speaker 1: and I often feel like what you share there is
Speaker 1: more helpful than what I get in here, which to
Speaker 1: me was like a huge red flag, like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: like what's happening. And so to your point, it could
Speaker 1: be that in session she was getting a little bit
Speaker 1: too much a paid right, which is also why I
Speaker 1: think if we had seen her in supervision or working
Speaker 1: with her own therapist, it could have added a nice
Speaker 1: layer of additional depth to the show.
Speaker 2: Baby the read the things I do for social engagement,
Speaker 2: I'm doing better than my job. Okay, all right, yes,
Speaker 2: I think we would have seen that. But also Page
Speaker 2: didn't have a conduit, right, and therapy, you know, doctor
Speaker 2: Joy goes both ways, Like we emotionally match with a
Speaker 2: person so they don't feel alone. So we have to
Speaker 2: go there in the depth of ourselves, Like I have
Speaker 2: to feel the despair that I felt to mirror the
Speaker 2: despair that you felt. It's not the same situation, but
Speaker 2: despair is despair, and we know that Paige was feeling
Speaker 2: overwhelmed with feelings and so they were pouring out somewhere
Speaker 2: because they didn't have anywhere else to go. So check
Speaker 2: your therapist. Make sure side one them if you need
Speaker 2: to ask them who was that for, so you can
Speaker 2: keep them accountable. But definitely check in and make sure.
Speaker 2: If you're not feeling it, go to therapy for Black
Speaker 2: Girls and see if there's another therapists that might fit
Speaker 2: you a little bit better.
Speaker 1: Great points, stand doctor X. Well, let us know where
Speaker 1: we can continue to find you and support you. What
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media handles
Speaker 1: you'd like to share?
Speaker 2: Ah? Thanks so you can always find me at lex
Speaker 2: L double x sex SCX doc dooc dot com. That's
Speaker 2: my website. You can subscribe to newsletters. I do not
Speaker 2: spam mailboxes and inboxes, nor do I sell your information.
Speaker 2: It is just for me as a way to connect
Speaker 2: with my insiders. You can also join my channel on
Speaker 2: Instagram and across all social media. I am lex L
Speaker 2: Double x Sex. Sex doc doc.
Speaker 1: And you can also check out doctor lex on the
Speaker 1: multiple occasions she shared with us here on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Will be sure to include all of those in the
Speaker 1: show notes so that you can check out her website
Speaker 1: as well as the other time she has so generously
Speaker 1: shared with us. So thank you for joining me again, doctor.
Speaker 2: Lex Thank you for having me. I missed you.
Speaker 1: Indeed, thank you for being back. I'm so glad Doctor
Speaker 1: Lexel was able to join us again for this episode.
Speaker 1: To learn more about her work, or to check out
Speaker 1: her previous appearances here on the podcast, visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three
Speaker 1: oh four, and don't forget to text two of your
Speaker 1: girls right now to encourage them to check out the episode.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida
Speaker 1: Lucas and Elise Ellis, and editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
Speaker 1: real soon.
Speaker 2: Take good care, what's