Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
Speaker 1: I Never told your production of iHeart Radio, And welcome
Speaker 1: to our part two classic rerun.
Speaker 2: I'm Princess Leiah. Whether you celebrate Revenge of the fifth
Speaker 2: or Revenge of the sixth, because people disagree about which
Speaker 2: one is the better kind of rhyming scheme. Either way,
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 3: Hey this Sanny and again Samantha, and.
Speaker 2: Welcome to stuff I've Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3: Always have to pretend like a surprise like I'm still here.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 2: I love your tone of surprise always with you, the
Speaker 2: tone of surprise they have.
Speaker 3: You have to switch it up because you know why not?
Speaker 4: Definitely keep me and the listeners on our toes.
Speaker 2: I actually, how do you feel about a good like
Speaker 2: surprise or twist?
Speaker 4: In medias? At the.
Speaker 3: It's according to what kind of surprise or twist there is.
Speaker 3: Like I will say, if it gets too dark and
Speaker 3: I don't know there's a happy ending, I'm gonna quit.
Speaker 3: But if you tell me that's going to be a
Speaker 3: happy ending, I'll be better.
Speaker 4: I love a good surprise.
Speaker 2: And a good twist, like if it's if it's just
Speaker 2: ridiculous and unearned. I don't like that, right, But something
Speaker 2: like from these movies we're talking about today, Star Wars,
Speaker 2: I am your father.
Speaker 4: I would have loved to have had that surprise.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the I See Dead People.
Speaker 4: Yeah I did that too. I had. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I went through such a big sixth sense phase because
Speaker 2: I love horror, and good horror can sometimes be hard to.
Speaker 3: Find, right, and to be fair, you only can get
Speaker 3: that once. I know that's a sad part.
Speaker 2: But you you are someone who has watched movies with me,
Speaker 2: and movies that I love, and you know, I get
Speaker 2: reinvested every time as if I'm like you.
Speaker 3: It's almost like you get surprised again, like the way
Speaker 3: you're so invested that when I look at your face, you're.
Speaker 4: Like, oh, oh.
Speaker 3: My gosh, that I truly believe that it's the first
Speaker 3: time you've seen it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've wondered about that. And I had a
Speaker 2: friend who kind of like interviewed me.
Speaker 5: She said, so, tell me, why is it every time
Speaker 5: we watch these movies you've seen hundreds of times together,
Speaker 5: you act as though you've never seen it.
Speaker 2: And I was trying to explain that. For me, it's
Speaker 2: almost like I can count on these feelings and stations.
Speaker 2: It gives me every time, and that's why I keep
Speaker 2: watching them and I love those. It's almost like writing
Speaker 2: a roller coaster. I love writing roller coasters. Write a
Speaker 2: million times.
Speaker 3: And if you knew, it's true, because when we've written
Speaker 3: ride together, you do act like it's a new thing
Speaker 3: for you. You're so excited about it in advance. So
Speaker 3: for you, when we were talking about the Star Wars
Speaker 3: that was the first time you wrote it, what was
Speaker 3: your feels other than because the initial was that you
Speaker 3: were so excited that you almost tore, like you almost
Speaker 3: had tears in your You did have tears in your
Speaker 3: eyes as you were like, we're going to write it.
Speaker 3: What was your feel after the fact that you wrote
Speaker 3: it for the first time? You were quiet?
Speaker 4: I was quiet.
Speaker 5: I was like almost euphoria, just a relief and a
Speaker 5: happiness that we did this.
Speaker 2: I've been so worried about it. I thought we would
Speaker 2: never make it happen. And it was around two pm
Speaker 2: that we finally got to write it, and it was Oh,
Speaker 2: I can't believe that it happened.
Speaker 4: All these things could have gone wrong, and we.
Speaker 3: Did, and we were we were kind of scared that
Speaker 3: it was going to go wrong, whether it was weather,
Speaker 3: whether it was being backed up, whether it would break down.
Speaker 3: Because also I had this experience with you with the
Speaker 3: Hagrid Rod Yes, and I was like, we can't leave
Speaker 3: here without you actually writing this ride, because I think
Speaker 3: that would have been one of the biggest disappointments for
Speaker 3: you and for me to see you write it, to
Speaker 3: see you after the fact and the stories that you had. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's kind of that same level.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am so glad you were like, you have
Speaker 2: to write this ride.
Speaker 4: No better what I.
Speaker 3: Really know, I wasn't gonna let you leave without that.
Speaker 2: I love how supportive you are. It's one of my
Speaker 2: favorite things about you. You made sure that happened, and
Speaker 2: I am so glad that I wrote that.
Speaker 3: Right, I will say, you make it easy because I
Speaker 3: know what you love. Yes, And that's like first and
Speaker 3: foremost one of the things that I love about my friends.
Speaker 3: And by the way, when we read the listener letter
Speaker 3: about her friend doing the Harry Potter, she actually tweeted
Speaker 3: her friend tweeted about how much she loved her friend
Speaker 3: for doing that. That is the stuff that I love
Speaker 3: about women loving women and our female supporting females. But
Speaker 3: that is what I see, like, I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: Annie has to do this because she loves it. Of course,
Speaker 3: I love to teach you and be like, no, it's
Speaker 3: never happening. But just watching this movie, just seeing you
Speaker 3: on these rise, this passion. I don't know if I've
Speaker 3: ever felt passionate like that, and you do, and it's
Speaker 3: fun to watch.
Speaker 4: I'm glad.
Speaker 2: I'm glad because, as I said in the last one
Speaker 2: in part one of our Princess Leah Star Wars Overview,
Speaker 2: I've been embarrassed about it.
Speaker 4: Like still to this day, I struggle with it.
Speaker 2: I think fandom is more accepted now, but when I
Speaker 2: was younger, I definitely felt like a weirdo.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: And even my older brother, who loved Star Wars, he
Speaker 2: would make fun of me for liking Star Wars and
Speaker 2: he said I was too into it and it was strange,
Speaker 2: and luckily for me, I was too in it to
Speaker 2: be deterred.
Speaker 3: And I love that. I think people who love things
Speaker 3: are genuinely you know who they are, yeah, And to me,
Speaker 3: they are die hard and loyal and loyalty is really
Speaker 3: hard to find.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think that fandom certainly can be toxic, and
Speaker 2: we've talked about that before.
Speaker 4: And I am someone who.
Speaker 2: I'm able to separate the things that I love about
Speaker 2: Star Wars in particular, or anything that I do really love,
Speaker 2: the good things and the bad things. And like, sure,
Speaker 2: I didn't like this movie, but that doesn't ruin everything
Speaker 2: else for me. And I know for some people it does, right,
Speaker 2: but for me it doesn't.
Speaker 3: And just to put this out there, loving anything too much, yes,
Speaker 3: obsession is dangerous, yes, But to be able to love
Speaker 3: something it is a genuinely good thing. And for those
Speaker 3: who support friends, those who uh for me like I Again,
Speaker 3: I think I've talked about this before about attachment issues.
Speaker 3: I don't quite understand this level of this bond, but
Speaker 3: I love it when I see it because I wish
Speaker 3: I could be as in it as you are.
Speaker 2: Well you, I'm so glad it met so much to
Speaker 2: me that you watched these the feed and you shared
Speaker 2: it with me, because yeah, we are.
Speaker 4: This is our part two of.
Speaker 2: Our epic Star Wars Princess Leiah Feminism Overview. Please go
Speaker 2: check out part one if you haven't listened to it already,
Speaker 2: in which we talk about the cultural impact of Star
Speaker 2: Wars in Leia, and we did the plot overview of
Speaker 2: a New Hope and Impire strikes back from the original
Speaker 2: trilogy because we're mostly focusing on those, and today we're
Speaker 2: gonna start with Return of the Jedi, which is the
Speaker 2: final one in this original it's much maligned. It was
Speaker 2: my favorite as a kid. It's still my second favorite,
Speaker 2: and you can judge me for that if you want.
Speaker 2: But Imperi stikes Pact number one turned the Jedi Hope.
Speaker 3: So in Retard of the Jedi, Leah poses as a
Speaker 3: bounty hunter to infiltrate Jaba's palace to save Han, which
Speaker 3: by the way, I didn't know who Jaba was, and
Speaker 3: he had to tell me who the Green Slide was.
Speaker 3: I got it. I got it. And a lot of
Speaker 3: people joke that she is on a mission to save
Speaker 3: her prince. I agree with that, but it's found out
Speaker 3: after freeing Han from carbonite and enslaved by Jaba, changed
Speaker 3: by his side, which is the scene and that I know, yes,
Speaker 3: this is where Slave Leah and the metal bikini comes in. That,
Speaker 3: I mean, I get it. It was very sexist, but
Speaker 3: damn she looked good in it. She did. She looked good, which,
Speaker 3: by the way, again was one of the three scenes
Speaker 3: that I knew about. Of course everyone knows about that,
Speaker 3: I guess one. So Luke Han and Chewey are sent
Speaker 3: us to death as they fight their way out, and
Speaker 3: Leah strangles Jaba with her chase because she is a badass,
Speaker 3: and she kills him with the tools of her oppression
Speaker 3: and escapes. And by the way, I think I did
Speaker 3: make a few comments about how Chewy looked really rough
Speaker 3: in DC.
Speaker 2: He did, and I always forget that possibly someone doesn't
Speaker 2: know my level of nerd them, and I know you
Speaker 2: had to deal with that, because I'll just forget, like, oh,
Speaker 2: you don't know all these things that I just know.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah.
Speaker 2: Java is kind of this big crime lord who Han
Speaker 2: had a big debt to and so after we got
Speaker 2: frozen in carbonite, got sent to Java hanging on his
Speaker 2: wall like an ornament.
Speaker 3: So I learned about the Mandalorian at this point.
Speaker 4: I don't think I ever explained that properly to you,
Speaker 4: but yes, because.
Speaker 3: Well I think if you didn't, my partner Joe tried to,
Speaker 3: and I was just like staring back and forth at
Speaker 3: both of you. So I learned about the two of them.
Speaker 3: I also learned that the original clunky scene.
Speaker 4: Was due to Java, right, uh, yeah, well it's the Gredo.
Speaker 2: Who's Holly Fryes super fan, Holly fries favorite character.
Speaker 5: I'm not calling her super fan, she's super she is
Speaker 5: an expert. You're right, we should give her the respect
Speaker 5: she is new. Yeah, yeah, I actually have a whole thing.
Speaker 5: And I'm going to come back to this once we
Speaker 5: get to the newer movies. But I'm not sure you're
Speaker 5: aware of this, Samantha, but a lot of people love
Speaker 5: Boba Fett, who is the bounty hunter that that looks
Speaker 5: like the Mandalorian, And I just think he's bad at
Speaker 5: his job.
Speaker 3: And well, I did keep asking where's the baby?
Speaker 4: Yes you did.
Speaker 3: What's his name?
Speaker 4: Well everyone calls him baby Yoda, which is not baby Wrecked.
Speaker 3: But yeah, well I just and so therefore, because I
Speaker 3: know about Baby Yoda and the popularity and the cuteness
Speaker 3: of Baby Yoda, I called everything baby something.
Speaker 2: Also, I didn't mean for that to sound judgmental. That
Speaker 2: everyone gets I also call it baby.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying it's unjudgmental. It is exactly what it is.
Speaker 3: I who knows nothing of Star Wars. No no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: super cute and then everything is baby something.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I appreciated it. So yeah, yeah, there's big crime.
Speaker 2: Lord Leah kills him. When Carrie Fisher was asked if
Speaker 2: she wanted a stunt double to kill Jaba.
Speaker 4: She's like, hell no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2: Yes, And this is probably the scene that causes the
Speaker 2: most feminist discussion kind of ire. It was definitely a
Speaker 2: way of catering to the male gaze, although it is
Speaker 2: worth pointing out that when these movies themselves came out,
Speaker 2: they were not seen as four men and boys.
Speaker 4: That came later, that came around the time of Return
Speaker 4: of the Jedi.
Speaker 3: I think this is a scene that I was like, oh, look,
Speaker 3: there's the one Asian girl.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But we talked about this in our Star Wars Feminism
Speaker 2: episode and her Action Figures episode about how this series
Speaker 2: sort of got really drawn into as part of the
Speaker 2: fact that merchandising was such a big part of it,
Speaker 2: the rebranding in the nineties of this is for Boys
Speaker 2: and this is for girls, and it was firmly set
Speaker 2: aside as this is for boys and slave, Leia is
Speaker 2: absolutely serving this cause this became instant sex symbol, and
Speaker 2: this is the image that many publications use of her.
Speaker 2: Even My Fancy Star Wars Encyclopedia in their entry.
Speaker 4: For Laya, that is the image that they use, and.
Speaker 2: It was the image they used on the nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: three cover of The Rolling Stones in Return of the
Speaker 2: Jedi was announced. It has inspired so much cosplay it
Speaker 2: has a cult following of its own, despite having only
Speaker 2: two minutes of screen time. That is one of the
Speaker 2: three things that you knew about this movie is very
Speaker 2: revealing because it's two minutes or less. Fisher has spoken
Speaker 2: about how miserable it was to film these scenes and
Speaker 2: how the mail crew mocked her. That dignity was out
Speaker 2: of the question, as she said, and it was made
Speaker 2: of metal, or at least one of them was, so
Speaker 2: it didn't really move with her. One version was made
Speaker 2: of rever, but she had to be very careful about
Speaker 2: how she moved, and she's expressed her annoyance that the
Speaker 2: costume has been taken out of context of that scene
Speaker 2: becoming synonymous with sexy. A parent even recently complained that
Speaker 2: the Leya in a metal bikini toy was being sold
Speaker 2: at Target that it was too sexy, when if you
Speaker 2: think about what's happening in those scenes, it's horrendous, and
Speaker 2: Leah's expression of contempt and rage communicates her feelings about it,
Speaker 2: and the fact that she ultimately kills the one who
Speaker 2: tried to take power from her and Jaba, her captor,
Speaker 2: and the one viewing her as a.
Speaker 4: Sex object is objectively gross. He's gross.
Speaker 2: He kind of serves as a stand in for those
Speaker 2: that would objectify her, and you do not want to
Speaker 2: be Java. He's leering, his tongue is rolling out. Almost
Speaker 2: every scene with Leah in this outfit comes with Java
Speaker 2: in the background or reminder that if you're fantasizing about
Speaker 2: this non consensual situation, well you have something in common
Speaker 2: with this disgusting creature right here. This is something people
Speaker 2: often ignore or forget. What they remember of all Leah
Speaker 2: has done is that she was really hot in that bikini,
Speaker 2: and that is so frustrating. It's something we as women
Speaker 2: see all the time. We can lead a rebellion for
Speaker 2: three movies but still be remembered for when we were
Speaker 2: at our weakest and most humiliated, and the fact that
Speaker 2: she is known here as slave Leah, which is never
Speaker 2: used in the script. By the way, that's something culture
Speaker 2: and fans assigned to her and not just Leyah is
Speaker 2: disturbed and very indicative. A lot have accused George Lucas
Speaker 2: of having his cake and eating it too, of catering
Speaker 2: to the mailgize while also condemning it.
Speaker 3: Right. So, there is an episode of Friends where Rachel
Speaker 3: dresses up in the metal bikini for ross. I guess
Speaker 3: it's called the one with the Princess Leah fantasy, and
Speaker 3: there are slave Leya burlesque routines, billy dancing routines, and
Speaker 3: strip routines. Also collectors items and toys, which is all yuck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do like some of the dance and burlesque
Speaker 2: routines or reclaim it, which is really cool as like
Speaker 2: a power power scene. I personally prefer dressing up as
Speaker 2: Leah to get out of jury duty on thirty Huck,
Speaker 2: even though she shouldn't be embarrassed for cosplay, I say,
Speaker 2: as I'm in cosplay, and Carrie Fisher's guest appearance on
Speaker 2: that show is fantastic.
Speaker 3: It is so good. It's probably one of my favorite episodes,
Speaker 3: especially with the whole icon of her being a writer
Speaker 3: and a strong female writer for a field that is
Speaker 3: dominated by men in her age, so like it was
Speaker 3: just so stacked. There's so many layers to that episode
Speaker 3: with Carrie Fisher and also Carrie Fisher as a comedian. Yes,
Speaker 3: she is amazing, Her timing is freaking.
Speaker 2: Amazing, fantastic, fantastic. That one's called Rosemar's Baby, if anyone
Speaker 2: has missed it, and there's a lot. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of debate in the Star Wars community about whether jab
Speaker 2: assaulted Leah in this scene. The consensus seems to be no,
Speaker 2: that the outfit was his way of taking away her power.
Speaker 2: There's also a lot of informal research on why the
Speaker 2: costume has resonated so much with women and why so
Speaker 2: many women cosplay it. Dancer Amir Sayid, who has used
Speaker 2: the outfit in her tears, have said quote, Jaba put
Speaker 2: her into the outfit to humiliate her, but Leah was
Speaker 2: such a strong character her will made the costume empowering.
Speaker 3: Right, and some fans have rebranded Slave Leah as Leah
Speaker 3: the Hutslayer, as they should, and Amy Schumer poked fun
Speaker 3: at this in a photo shoot as well. Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: and as you have told me a couple of times,
Speaker 3: and any k Fisher advised you Star Wars actress Daisy
Speaker 3: Ridley not to let them put her in a bikini,
Speaker 3: and apparently that was a wise statements.
Speaker 2: And I do want to throw in here just a note.
Speaker 2: This is still hotly debated. I have read arguments that
Speaker 2: Leah killing Jaba is not empowering. I've read so many
Speaker 2: that it is. I think a part of the problem
Speaker 2: is the way mostly masculine fan culture around Star Wars
Speaker 2: tries to reduce things like she was rescued on the
Speaker 2: desk star, which is technically true, but misses the whole
Speaker 2: context of the saying it she was a sexy prisoner
Speaker 2: of Java, which again, it just doesn't have the context.
Speaker 3: So I don't know how you let go of the
Speaker 3: fact that she killed him. She killed her prisoner. I
Speaker 3: think that overpowers the fact that she was a sexy prisoner.
Speaker 3: If she was able to kill him and get away
Speaker 3: with it and become the princess.
Speaker 4: Yes, she's ah, I love it, get him leyah Uh.
Speaker 2: Leah after that joins the ground team to destroy the
Speaker 2: shield generators.
Speaker 4: I know this is a lot of technical speak.
Speaker 2: It's not super important, so that the rebellion can destroy
Speaker 2: the Death Star volunteering after she learns that Han is
Speaker 2: leading this group and her surprise, and to her surprise
Speaker 2: is a general accepting a position and a cause important
Speaker 2: to her that he for a long time a shirt
Speaker 2: And this is when he's proved his commitment his love,
Speaker 2: and she shows hers by trusting his leadership at I mean,
Speaker 2: at the start of the movie, she never would have
Speaker 2: trusted Han to lead anything.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's handsome, but he's kind of dumb.
Speaker 5: He has a lot of growing up to do, for sure.
Speaker 5: And Han does not try to sideline her protect her.
Speaker 5: He's happy she wants to be on his team.
Speaker 2: He knows she's useful and very competent, and I do
Speaker 2: love She's not really defined by this.
Speaker 4: Relationship, and she doesn't lose herself in it.
Speaker 2: She acknowledges what she wants and needs and accepts the
Speaker 2: fact that she does in fact have those things, and
Speaker 2: that's okay. She goes on to lead a speeder chase
Speaker 2: after some Stormtroopers, is separated from the group and fights
Speaker 2: all some enemies and joins the Ewoks, which are the
Speaker 2: little teddy bear.
Speaker 3: I call them teddy bears.
Speaker 4: You also, I feel like you kept mixing up wookies
Speaker 4: in ewoks.
Speaker 3: I did. I did, absolutely, Even now as we talk
Speaker 3: about it, I won't say either one of those honestly,
Speaker 3: because I don't know which is which.
Speaker 4: That's totally fair. It's totally fair.
Speaker 3: I just called them the cute things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have understood. Again, I can translate your
Speaker 2: Star Wars speak.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: The interesting thing is like to prove the point of
Speaker 2: how successful merch was for these movies, E Walks never
Speaker 2: said in the movie Wampa, the ice creature from Empire
Speaker 2: strikes Back, that is my fan fiction name.
Speaker 4: Never said name or never not in credit.
Speaker 3: So I didn't know what a wampa was until you
Speaker 3: showed me. I know, and I can guarantee if you
Speaker 3: gave me a pictures of all of these things, I
Speaker 3: probably would get one out of three.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, you better be ready because there's a quiz
Speaker 2: at the end. Oh no, I'm just kidding kind of Okay.
Speaker 3: Then, Luke, I've seen the outline.
Speaker 4: There's quizzes. Don't look ahead in my outline.
Speaker 2: Luke goes on to tell her that she is Luke's
Speaker 2: twin sister and Darth Vader, her past tormentor in arch Nemesis,
Speaker 2: is their dad, and she tells Luke to run away,
Speaker 2: that she she wishes she could go with him, but
Speaker 2: he immediately calls her bluff. He says, you've always been strong, Leah,
Speaker 2: and some as we alluded to in the part one
Speaker 2: of this, some people take issue with this scene that
Speaker 2: she didn't have a bigger reaction to the revelation that
Speaker 2: this person who tortured me and was very instrumental in
Speaker 2: the blowing off my home planet is my father, and
Speaker 2: she does have more experience because of that than Luke
Speaker 2: does with Darth Vader. But I feel like if she had,
Speaker 2: people would have taken issue with that too. She's being
Speaker 2: too emotional. It does to me seem in keeping with
Speaker 2: her character that she takes it in stride.
Speaker 3: I will say, I will say you to that, like
Speaker 3: I think people, as an adopted woman, myself an adopted girl,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of things that you understand and even
Speaker 3: though there's an idealization. Again I'm getting too literal with this,
Speaker 3: but there's an understanding that there's a reason you're not
Speaker 3: with your biological and of course this is a dramatic
Speaker 3: version of he's evil and he did things to you.
Speaker 3: But in actuality, the truth of the matter is that
Speaker 3: the reason that you were not with your biological parent,
Speaker 3: there is a component of not necessarily evil, but a
Speaker 3: dark side. So I will say for me, it made sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I'm someone who when I get news that i'm
Speaker 2: I know is big and I'm gonna have an emotional response,
Speaker 2: I usually have a pretty delayed response.
Speaker 3: I think that's me too. I am one of those
Speaker 3: that sits calmly and then walks away and reacts after
Speaker 3: the fact. I've been called out for that a couple
Speaker 3: of times.
Speaker 4: I have too.
Speaker 2: I had a two friends tell me that, you know,
Speaker 2: they've been dating forever and they thought that I was
Speaker 2: I didn't believe them or I was mad at them
Speaker 2: because I didn't have a bigger reaction, but I just
Speaker 2: I took it and stride and I like to I
Speaker 2: like to think over things and make sure I'm responding
Speaker 2: in a way that captures how I feel and.
Speaker 4: What I think. So I guess I sort of connected
Speaker 4: with her on that.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people have said she's she's playing chess,
Speaker 2: she's doing alliance versus Empire in her head. Meanwhile, Luke
Speaker 2: is doing a much more personal battlefield so it has
Speaker 2: a bigger impact on him. So moving on, she fights
Speaker 2: alongside Han and Chewey and is slightly injured but keeps going.
Speaker 2: She gets to flip the I love you I know
Speaker 2: on Han. The heroes are victorious, a party ensues. She
Speaker 2: is and Carrie Fisher herself has said this she is
Speaker 2: more supportive and feminine in this one, completing her arc
Speaker 2: of allowing herself to lean on others to be more vulnerable.
Speaker 3: I also like the flip that she did with or
Speaker 3: not necessarily she, but the writer, I don't know who
Speaker 3: did it on the fact that he's the one that's
Speaker 3: insecure about the relationship and she's the one who's like,
Speaker 3: calm down, is not what you think.
Speaker 4: And I do love that moment.
Speaker 2: I have never because I'm not into romance, I've never
Speaker 2: really given much thought to the Han and Lance relationship,
Speaker 2: but I did, like, I read an article specifically for this,
Speaker 2: and they were kind of saying what you saying, Samantha's
Speaker 2: it's a sort of a flip because then Emperor strikes
Speaker 2: back too. She's the one that's sort of having intimacy
Speaker 2: commitment issues, and Han's the one trying to get her
Speaker 2: to admit, you know you, he wants, he needs something.
Speaker 3: I think we see so many films with women being
Speaker 3: in the triangle and be like as cool as cool,
Speaker 3: I'll be the best friend, I'll do this or whatever right,
Speaker 3: and she's and she's the one. No, No, calm down,
Speaker 3: you're being emotional. It's okay, you're reading the things. It's
Speaker 3: not what you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I had to put this in there. Samantha
Speaker 2: heard my holes feel I'll try to shorten it, though.
Speaker 2: I have a beef that Darth Vader's last words are
Speaker 2: tell your sister you were right about me. Man, you
Speaker 2: tortured her, dude, And those are some pretty selfish last
Speaker 2: words say.
Speaker 3: I will say, first thing, and he told me right
Speaker 3: after that scene, right after that scene, and I will say,
Speaker 3: not necessarily to me, I think she was just making
Speaker 3: an outright statement.
Speaker 4: Was that's oh no, that's what.
Speaker 3: No, you're still a bad guy. You tortured her. That
Speaker 3: that was the initial statement that I kind of looked at.
Speaker 3: I was like, you're right, you're absolutely this does not
Speaker 3: justify what you did to her.
Speaker 4: No, I'm cladding on my side, I am, and I
Speaker 4: did just want to put this in here because.
Speaker 5: It does come up in a lot of feminist essays
Speaker 5: about Princess Leah, which you would not believe how many
Speaker 5: there are.
Speaker 4: Maybe you would.
Speaker 2: It's Vagerder's threat to turn Lea to the dark side
Speaker 2: that goes Luke into attacking Darth Vader, cutting off Vader's
Speaker 2: hands and almost losing himself his hands and almost losing
Speaker 2: himself to the dark side.
Speaker 4: Some interpret that as sort of the whole hero I
Speaker 4: mean to justify violence or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so put that out there, and then moving
Speaker 2: on to the new the new Ones, which we're again
Speaker 2: not going to talk about too much. You can hear
Speaker 2: more about that in Our especially the Last Jedi's feminism, uh,
Speaker 2: in Our feminism and Star Wars episode because that movie
Speaker 2: really does have a lot going on when it comes
Speaker 2: to feminism. But Leya reprised by Carrie Fisher.
Speaker 3: By the way, I did not see this, so all
Speaker 3: of this is just conjecture from my point of view.
Speaker 2: No, but I would love, like I won't make you
Speaker 2: watch it, but I would love to just tell you
Speaker 2: what happens in it, because it's kind of shocking how
Speaker 2: much feminist dialogue is in it okay, so Leya reprised
Speaker 2: by Carrie Fisher. She's the one that stays. So These
Speaker 2: take place a couple of decades after the original trilogy
Speaker 2: and Han has left. Luke is socially distancing way before
Speaker 2: it was cool, but Leya stayed to lead the fight
Speaker 2: against the First Order, which is the New Empire, and
Speaker 2: her son is a member of that. And it's revealed
Speaker 2: that she was trained by Luke to be a Jedi,
Speaker 2: but she had a vision that if she completed her training,
Speaker 2: her son would die, so she.
Speaker 4: Gave it up. No spoilers.
Speaker 2: When it was announced that she would return, of course,
Speaker 2: the lot of internet was like she's too oh, sho's
Speaker 2: too fat. On the flip side, people were really worried
Speaker 2: that she'd just be a token or a cameo, but
Speaker 2: she's running the whole show. She definitely teaches Flyboy Po
Speaker 2: a valuable lesson about listening to and respecting women in
Speaker 2: the Last Jedi, even though a lot of people did
Speaker 2: not like it. When asked what she wanted fans to
Speaker 2: take away from Leya in the new movies, Fisher said,
Speaker 2: never give up. Fisher was also very outspoken that Leah
Speaker 2: remained a strong character for the generations who had grown
Speaker 2: up looking up to her, and for new generations as well.
Speaker 2: To stay true to Princess Leiah and the fans of
Speaker 2: Princess Leah. And to Twitter trolls commenting on her looks
Speaker 2: and age, Carrie Fisher responded, please start debating about whether
Speaker 2: or not I have aged well. Unfortunately, it hurts all
Speaker 2: three of my feelings. My body has an aged well
Speaker 2: as I have. Youth and beauty are not accomplishments, their
Speaker 2: temporary happy by products of time and or DNA. Don't
Speaker 2: hold your breath for either. Also, here's another controversial thing
Speaker 2: I want to say, because this causes a lot of
Speaker 2: argument in the Star Wars fan community.
Speaker 4: Kyler Renn is a bad Jedi. I'm just gonna leave
Speaker 4: that there.
Speaker 5: Like people like to complain that Ray was too good,
Speaker 5: too fast, maybe Kyler Renn was just bad.
Speaker 4: Have we ever thought about that.
Speaker 3: I would just like to say once again, the Stormtroopers
Speaker 3: and the damn guns, they did not use them because
Speaker 3: it never touched people. I'm just very confused with what
Speaker 3: they were used for other than a laser show. Because
Speaker 3: other than bring a little smoke here and there. It
Speaker 3: rarely killed someone. I don't understand how bad they are
Speaker 3: at aim and why they are stormtroopers if they can't
Speaker 3: aim a laser.
Speaker 2: That is a running joke in the series, and I
Speaker 2: loved watching it with you as someone who hadn't seen
Speaker 2: it and just seeing you immediately pick up on it.
Speaker 3: Why has no one hit any of them? If there's
Speaker 3: twenty of them with laser guns and three of them
Speaker 3: with two guns, why.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're just bad or see. My theory is maybe
Speaker 2: their hearts weren't in it and they were just pretending.
Speaker 3: Maybe they were like they just wanted a laser show, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, to be fair, I feel like none of
Speaker 3: the good guys were able to hit the bad guys either,
Speaker 3: Like it was very fair. You know who did really well?
Speaker 4: E Walks and rocks, Yeah, spears.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they got them one e walk died rip,
Speaker 3: but then they got them with vines and rocks. That's
Speaker 3: all I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean that's one of the reasons people
Speaker 2: really don't like Return of the Jedi. But yes, so
Speaker 2: in the Legends Universe, which is all the books that
Speaker 2: came out after the movies and books and comics and
Speaker 2: everything that Disney has now said is not canon. So
Speaker 2: it's called Legends. But in that she becomes a Jedi
Speaker 2: and a leader of the New Republic. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: we could talk so much, or I could, because I've
Speaker 2: read all these things about Lea in Legends.
Speaker 4: But then this episode never end.
Speaker 3: And I did ask her to end it at page
Speaker 3: twenty two.
Speaker 4: She did, She stepped in, she put the foot down,
Speaker 4: So thanks Samantha for that. Listeners.
Speaker 2: There's political marriages, there's a whole book called the Courtship
Speaker 2: of Princess Leiah. There's multiple kidnappings, pheromone seduction which scared
Speaker 2: me as a kid, forgiveness, forgiveness. When Luke turns to
Speaker 2: the dark side, Lea resists similar temptations, and it's able
Speaker 2: to turn Luke back side. Uh he did in one
Speaker 2: of the books. Oh yeah, and I went into all
Speaker 2: the Luke Skywalker clone whose name is Luke with two us.
Speaker 5: That's also in the books. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 5: In fact, too, Lukes, this can't get any better.
Speaker 3: I'm not ready for all of this.
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's sort of a very uh somehow both
Speaker 2: very long and very short runout of the plot of
Speaker 2: these movies. So now we're going to talk about feminism
Speaker 2: and Princess Leiah. But first we're gonna pop for a
Speaker 2: quick break for word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Speaker 2: Thank you, sponsor. So, as we said in part one,
Speaker 2: Princess Leah is widely regarded as a feminist icon. There's
Speaker 2: even something called Leyah feminism. Carrie Fisher herself has described
Speaker 2: Princess Leah as a huge feminist icon. In response to
Speaker 2: those that call her a damsel in distress in movies,
Speaker 2: she said she bost them around. I don't know what
Speaker 2: your idea of distresses, but that wasn't it. And I
Speaker 2: wasn't some babe running around the galaxy with my spouncing around,
Speaker 2: so I wasn't threatening to women. Carrie Fisher was instrumental
Speaker 2: in this characterization of Leah. She was a Hollywood script
Speaker 2: fixer and she was very involved in making Leyah what
Speaker 2: she was. She said she loved Leah, she loved her feiciness,
Speaker 2: the fact that she killed Jab of the Hut, and
Speaker 2: her the Princess Diarist. She wrote that she was quote
Speaker 2: honored to be Leah's representative here on Earth. She has
Speaker 2: often said that she was Leah and Leyah was her
Speaker 2: and I love that. I love when you find an
Speaker 2: actor who embraces this right.
Speaker 4: I think it's I.
Speaker 5: Think it was because she created it, so she loved it.
Speaker 5: It was a part of her exactly. When this character debuted,
Speaker 5: there weren't many strong female role models in movies and television.
Speaker 5: Most female characters served as decorations or prizes to be one.
Speaker 5: Leah was vastly different when compared to other princesses at
Speaker 5: the time, and still is in many ways. She was
Speaker 5: our first badass princess in pop culture, and especially important
Speaker 5: when we think about entertainment aim towards children. Because these
Speaker 5: were seen as children's movies, she became an instant icon
Speaker 5: for girls and women. She defied stereotypes about women and
Speaker 5: princesses and what they could do in the new movies.
Speaker 2: Her title is general. In the early days, women ran
Speaker 2: star wars, fanzunes, and fan clubs.
Speaker 1: I'm in.
Speaker 2: Some second wave feminists criticized Princess Leah when the film
Speaker 2: came out for her masculine traits. This was during the
Speaker 2: Vietnam War, when masculinity was associated with war and violence.
Speaker 2: And people had a lot of anxiety around that. Take
Speaker 2: this quote from a nineteen eighty five Time article, masculinity
Speaker 2: itself becomes a horror all rage and aggression and reptilian brain.
Speaker 2: Second wave feminism was largely founded alongside the anti war movement.
Speaker 2: Lea was a military leader and orchestrated battles that led
Speaker 2: to many deaths. When she wasn't doing that, she was
Speaker 2: a prisoner of war, so she was at odds with
Speaker 2: this anti war part of second wave feminism. It was
Speaker 2: really young girls at the time that latched onto her
Speaker 2: as a role model, and a lot of those girls
Speaker 2: became third wave feminist, which didn't have as strong of
Speaker 2: an anti military bent, and they bought their life of
Speaker 2: Leah with them. This is also around the time of
Speaker 2: the sexual Revolution, Roe v. Wade and the backlash to
Speaker 2: all of that, which in part explains the rebanding of
Speaker 2: Star Wars as a dude thing uh and the Gold Bikini, which,
Speaker 2: since it was the last movie, happened a little later,
Speaker 2: even though girls and women had been fans of Star
Speaker 2: Wars since the very beginning. JJ Abrams made this mistake
Speaker 2: recently on Good Morning America that the original trilogy was
Speaker 2: for boys, and the backlash rolls into it.
Speaker 3: It should be.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Another related criticism from earlier reviews about Leo was that
Speaker 3: she was a damsel in distressed slash love address so
Speaker 3: while at the same time complaining she liked femininity and
Speaker 3: uh huh, because what doesn't makes sense.
Speaker 4: I guess that's another point of view. You're damned if
Speaker 4: you do, dan if you don't.
Speaker 3: It really is because she can rescue people. But if
Speaker 3: she shows any femininity, that means that she is a damsel.
Speaker 3: But if she is too assertive, then she lacks it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I will say I think that's been a debate in
Speaker 3: my head how to be a female, especially in specific
Speaker 3: cultural ideas of what feminism is not feminism feminine trait
Speaker 3: is versus what feminism is that it has to be
Speaker 3: at odds. When that's not true, we can actually fight
Speaker 3: for our own rights with the availability of being feminine.
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong. I don't bake things, I don't
Speaker 3: make things, and I'm not super cutesy girly. Sometimes I
Speaker 3: wish I were. However, I also cannot figure out how
Speaker 3: to work mechanics on things.
Speaker 2: I do know how to change a tire. I will
Speaker 2: say that's awesome. Yeah, well, and that's when we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about this more in a minute. But that's
Speaker 2: one thing people actually did really like about Leaves that
Speaker 2: she was really as sortive character but also was still feminine.
Speaker 2: So from Diana Dominguez and her work feminism and the
Speaker 2: force empowerment and disillusion meant in a galaxy far far away,
Speaker 2: here was a woman who could play like and with
Speaker 2: the boys, but who didn't have to become one of
Speaker 2: the boys, and who could if and when she wanted
Speaker 2: to show she liked the boys. A woman who is outspoken, unashamed,
Speaker 2: and most importantly, unpunished for being so. She isn't a
Speaker 2: flirty sex spot tossing her hair around seductively to distract
Speaker 2: the enemy. She doesn't play the role of maternal caretaker,
Speaker 2: although she does display caring and compassion, or the sweet
Speaker 2: innocent damsel who stands passively by while the men do
Speaker 2: the work, but does step aside to let them do
Speaker 2: what they're good at when it is wise to do so.
Speaker 2: Leah is a hero without losing her gendered status. She
Speaker 2: does not have to play the cute, helpless sex kitten
Speaker 2: or become the sexless androgynist to get what she wants.
Speaker 2: She can be strong, sassy, outspoken, bossy and bitchy and
Speaker 2: still be respected and seen as feminine. And then there's
Speaker 2: a tweet from Hooveyan Feminism about Leah and the importance
Speaker 2: of Star Wars. Leah was a different type of princess
Speaker 2: than those in most movies shown to girls my age.
Speaker 2: She was a polite and military leader. It showed me
Speaker 2: a girl who was like me, rough and tumble and
Speaker 2: loud and brash and demanding.
Speaker 4: That felt unique and rare at the time.
Speaker 2: Star Wars and Leah and Padmey became fundamental parts of
Speaker 2: my childhood and identity. They showed me it was okay
Speaker 2: to just be me. If you're wondering, Samantha, I'm sure
Speaker 2: you're not. But Padmey is Luke and Lea's mother.
Speaker 3: Actually I was wondering. I was trying to figure out
Speaker 3: who that was. But I was being quiet, like, did
Speaker 3: I miss that part in the movie.
Speaker 2: You will definitely show up on the quiz No, no,
Speaker 2: no no, that was the prequel series.
Speaker 3: Okay, Oh wait, that is that the Nellie Portman character. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 3: I didn't know her name.
Speaker 4: Okay, got it.
Speaker 2: Yes, The character Leah became a symbol of women's protest
Speaker 2: marches worldwide, easily the most referenced pop culture character on
Speaker 2: protest signs. A women's place is in the resistance, for example,
Speaker 2: a rebel rebel with her picture. Mark Hamill even tweeted
Speaker 2: about it. I know where she stood, You know where
Speaker 2: she stood. Such an honor to see her standing with
Speaker 2: you today, bigly you Yeah.
Speaker 3: So. After Carrie Fisher's death in late twenty sixteen, right
Speaker 3: after the tumultuous election her daughter Billy Lord, which, by
Speaker 3: the way, after watching the originals like, oh yeah, they
Speaker 3: are so similar in features, she wrote, Leah is more
Speaker 3: than just a character. She's a feeling. She is a strength.
Speaker 3: She is grace, she is wit, She is femininity at
Speaker 3: its fineness, and no one could have played her like
Speaker 3: my mother. Princess Leiah is Carrie Fisher. Carrie Fisher is
Speaker 3: Princess Leiah. The two go hand in hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful. Fisher's openness about her struggles with bipolar
Speaker 2: disorder and addiction were groundbreaking. She was outspoken about sexism,
Speaker 2: about mental illness, about agism. She was funny, her unwillingness
Speaker 2: to sit down and be quiet, we're aspiring, and she
Speaker 2: infused so much of that into Leah, and that's what
Speaker 2: may Leah is such a powerful impactful character for so many.
Speaker 3: And I just want to put in here because I
Speaker 3: don't think you know, I know, you don't know. So
Speaker 3: Carrie Fisher actually made a cameo on Sex and the
Speaker 3: City and in that level of Carrie Bradshaw, who was
Speaker 3: played by Sarah Jessica Parker, she talks about the fact
Speaker 3: that there are two Carries who are writers. And at
Speaker 3: that point in time, Carrie was seen as a phenomenal
Speaker 3: writer as well because her words were so impactful and
Speaker 3: powerful this time. So yes, you can put this into
Speaker 3: your graph. She was actually acknowledged as a feminine icon
Speaker 3: in Sex and the City.
Speaker 4: All right, you know.
Speaker 2: One of the first cameos I saw her in was
Speaker 2: Screamed three, where she also was still having some commentary
Speaker 2: about hollywood It's treatment of women.
Speaker 4: So there you go. After her death, Christina J.
Speaker 2: Widmyer wrote a paper called the Feminist stra Back Performative
Speaker 2: Mourning in the Twitter response to Carrie Fisher's death about
Speaker 2: the performative grief around it on Twitter and the feminism
Speaker 2: it attracted. They were takedowns of dudes who were like,
Speaker 2: rip my first boner and about how she was so
Speaker 2: much more than just so many Steve Martin even got
Speaker 2: in trouble for this, although it was much less boni
Speaker 2: or more about her looks, but that she was so
Speaker 2: much more and I wanted to read a quote from it.
Speaker 2: Many of these tweets become feminists not only because their
Speaker 2: authors are expressing certain views of Leah as a character
Speaker 2: and Fisher as a person, but also because they are
Speaker 2: utilizing beformativity so that their grief furthers a social agenda.
Speaker 2: They are, in fact using their tweets as a means
Speaker 2: of carrying Ford Fisher's legacy of activism, and they do
Speaker 2: so by challenging patriarchal means of mourning and reintroducing Fisher's
Speaker 2: activist leanings through their tweets. In this sense, they engage
Speaker 2: in a performative goal, both as individuals performing themselves and
Speaker 2: as a collective performing a community value. It is through
Speaker 2: these performatives that divisions in the fan community are revealed
Speaker 2: and negotiated. That was actually really good read.
Speaker 4: I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Writer and Tat's tweeted this thread after Carrie Fisher's death
Speaker 2: about General Organa. She's not young, not wearing a gold
Speaker 2: bikini ar robe. She's dressed to do what she's been
Speaker 2: training her whole life to do, lead the rebellion. This
Speaker 2: is the Layah that has lost everything, her world, her parents,
Speaker 2: her son to the dark side, her brother to who
Speaker 2: knows where, her lover. This is the Laya that could
Speaker 2: easily have been broken down or given up, but she
Speaker 2: was stronger than literally every man in her life.
Speaker 4: She kept going.
Speaker 2: When I see Fisher as General Organa, I see a
Speaker 2: woman who has put up with so much from so
Speaker 2: many men, and yet keeps showing up for them. Princess
Speaker 2: Leiah was great, but General Organa was Fisher's real gift
Speaker 2: to us, And she's who I'm going to be looking
Speaker 2: to in dark times. May we all be able to
Speaker 2: get up every day and in spite of our pain
Speaker 2: and loss and fear, put on our boots and vest
Speaker 2: and plan to destroy the empire. General Organa taught me that,
Speaker 2: ye you don't have to be special or chosen.
Speaker 4: To be a leader. You just have to show up
Speaker 4: and learn and do the work.
Speaker 2: And then another fan, Isaac Breen, tweeted, honor Carrie Fisher,
Speaker 2: normalize mental illness and its treatments, take life a little
Speaker 2: less seriously, destroy a fascist regime, right.
Speaker 3: And I think that's how I know her myself, as
Speaker 3: an amazing writer who spoke truths whether or not you
Speaker 3: wanted it, who had amazing comedic timing and enable to
Speaker 3: have a conversation and making jokes and making a light
Speaker 3: of hard issues that she had to deal with to
Speaker 3: normalize for people who can't deal with it, which we
Speaker 3: shouldn't have to do, but she was able to do
Speaker 3: it as an art form as well as proceed into
Speaker 3: a culture where she came from a time period where
Speaker 3: you're supposed to be feminine, you're supposed to be these things,
Speaker 3: and could have leaned into I was pretty let me
Speaker 3: leave it at that. It came out full forces. I
Speaker 3: have words, I have thoughts, I have strength. I have
Speaker 3: a mother who had to deal with those times of
Speaker 3: oppression as a woman, but I refused to be that woman.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to teach my daughter to come forward
Speaker 3: as a roaring lion and be my own advocate. That's
Speaker 3: how I know Carrie Fisher, and she definitely broke barriers,
Speaker 3: not being just Lea, which, by the way, a phenomenal character,
Speaker 3: but as her individual who leanked into that character to
Speaker 3: push forward herself as a woman who delve into women's rights,
Speaker 3: feminist rights, and also just human rights.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and she did it all well being funny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my like. I will say like every time
Speaker 3: I saw her outside of any of Star Wars, because
Speaker 3: obviously I didn't see her much in Star Wars until recently.
Speaker 3: I saw her as a woman with amazing comediic timing
Speaker 3: with also the contextual ideas of what is wrong in society.
Speaker 3: She did a great job with it without having to
Speaker 3: have her own individual platforms like a talk show or something.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which she did have one at one point.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I knew that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so wishful drinking.
Speaker 3: I love that title.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you should check it out. In the meantime, we
Speaker 4: do believe it or not, have a little bit more
Speaker 4: for you. Oh surprise, surprise.
Speaker 2: But first we have one more coickbreak for a word
Speaker 2: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So
Speaker 2: this is what I will call an Annie original. I
Speaker 2: haven't found too much research on this because it's really
Speaker 2: difficult to search and I tried, but it's something that's
Speaker 2: been on my mind ever since we did our feminism
Speaker 2: in Harry Potter episode. And so this is what I
Speaker 2: call in the outline my feminist Luke Skywalker discussion, because
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 5: I did.
Speaker 4: I want to talk about how in that in Harry
Speaker 4: Potter and in.
Speaker 2: Star Wars, there are these main male characters, Luke Skywalker
Speaker 2: and Harry Potter, which by the way, are both my
Speaker 2: biggest crushes fictional crushes of all time, is more balanced
Speaker 2: when it comes to traditionally feminine and masculine traits, and
Speaker 2: some have even argued that these are essentially female characters
Speaker 2: in the stereotypical sense. Are they're more like female characters.
Speaker 2: Luke was originally written as a female character, so if
Speaker 2: you think about Luke Skywalker, he has plenty of masculine
Speaker 2: coded traits like hot headedness, recklessness, but he's far more
Speaker 2: balanced with feminine coded traits like empathy, compassion, loyalty. When
Speaker 2: you take that even further with how Luke in particular
Speaker 2: interacts with the Force, because you've got Obi Wan and Yoda,
Speaker 2: his mentors telling him that he has to confront and
Speaker 2: essentially kill his father Darth Vader to become a Jedi,
Speaker 2: and Luke saying he can't do it because he's so
Speaker 2: strongly believed and can feel that they're still good In
Speaker 2: Darth Vader, and after he turns himself over to Vader,
Speaker 2: who turns him over to the Emperor, the Emperor is
Speaker 2: urging him to embrace his anger given to his aggression
Speaker 2: kill his father. Violence and anger stereotypically masculine traits, and
Speaker 2: when Luke does that, he almost loses himself to the
Speaker 2: dark side and almost continues this cycle of violence, cutting
Speaker 2: off his father's hand when his father had cut off
Speaker 2: his hand in the previous movie. His active heroism is
Speaker 2: throwing away his weapon, which by the way, is a
Speaker 2: very phallic weapon, and refusing to fight to let those
Speaker 2: things control him, embracing those more feminine coded traits like empathy,
Speaker 2: and this act brings out the empathy and love in
Speaker 2: Darth Vader and breaks the cycle. Luke also rejects the
Speaker 2: old Jedi order as well as the Empire, much like
Speaker 2: feminism demands systemic change right, and I.
Speaker 3: Will add some psychologists see this as the break of
Speaker 3: the edible cycle, specifically refusing to kill the father instead,
Speaker 3: he sacrifices and suffers for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a lot of comparisons to Christianity in there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is just something clearly I think too much about this, perhaps,
Speaker 2: but it is something that's been on my mind, especially
Speaker 2: since I'm on this show now and watching it. And yes,
Speaker 2: there is a lot of sexual imagery if you look
Speaker 2: for it, if you if you want the turning, the
Speaker 2: turning on of the lightsabers, the egg like guath Star
Speaker 2: and the sperm like X wings trying to land a shot.
Speaker 4: It's there, Samantha. And another thing I wanted to.
Speaker 2: Touch on very briefly is Luke Skywalker's sexuality because I
Speaker 2: think the fact that he doesn't have a romantic interest
Speaker 2: in the movies other than a fairly forced plotline with Leyah,
Speaker 2: who yes, it's his sister, although the writers didn't know
Speaker 2: that until Return of the Jedi, so.
Speaker 5: A lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, because I I was really curious, when did
Speaker 4: they know this was true?
Speaker 3: I'm saying they didn't know here, They didn't know here,
Speaker 3: they knew here.
Speaker 4: You're welcome, Samantha, and I'm sorry once again.
Speaker 2: Means that at least, if fan fiction is any guide,
Speaker 2: it's easier for people to see their sexual identity reflected
Speaker 2: in Luke Skywalker. The actor Mark Hamill even spoke to that,
Speaker 2: saying you can believe whatever you want when it comes
Speaker 2: to his sexual identity. And yes, I know this is
Speaker 2: not the same as the importance of explicit representation, something
Speaker 2: we need more of and I am so ready for.
Speaker 2: I really wanted in the New movies been in Poe
Speaker 2: to end up together. Alas in the Extended Universe Legends universe,
Speaker 2: Luke did go on to marry a woman, although that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean he's straight necessarily. The reason I wanted to
Speaker 2: bring this up is because, as you all know, I've
Speaker 2: been reading a.
Speaker 5: Lot of fan fiction lately and I've noticed that in
Speaker 5: the world of Star Wars fan fiction there are a
Speaker 5: lot of a sexual, a romantic Luke Skywalker stories, which
Speaker 5: is something I have never literally ever in all my
Speaker 5: years of fan fiction scene before.
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean it wasn't there at all.
Speaker 2: I have very specific fan fiction circles that I traffic in,
Speaker 2: but for me, i'd never seen it, and I've enjoyed
Speaker 2: quite a few of those stories. Also a lot of
Speaker 2: bisexual han solo stories.
Speaker 5: And speaking of that, I've also sort of fallen into
Speaker 5: the Han solo Luke Skywalker ship, which is you.
Speaker 4: Tell us Guy solo?
Speaker 3: Yeah, would you tell us a lot about Also.
Speaker 4: I can't not see it, and I don't know why
Speaker 4: or how that is.
Speaker 2: Even the story I'm writing is sort of a one
Speaker 2: sided Sky solo story, even though there might be romance
Speaker 2: element later.
Speaker 4: Who knows what the characters will do. I certainly am
Speaker 4: not controlling the actions.
Speaker 5: I'll find out as I write, but that's one of
Speaker 5: the things I love about fan fiction, and I'm clearly
Speaker 5: using it to work. Three things, And yes, before you ask,
Speaker 5: it's not published again.
Speaker 4: I think it could kill someone. It's so sad.
Speaker 2: It's made me crime multiple times writing it, and I
Speaker 2: do again I want to put out there. I'll take
Speaker 2: a prompt because I was gonna read a section of
Speaker 2: my fan fiction on here, but I couldn't find a
Speaker 2: good non sad section other than a drunk Han solo
Speaker 2: which doesn't have to do with Leah or even this
Speaker 2: kind of Luke Skywalker feminis thing. And yeah, I mentioned
Speaker 2: twin Stop is a really popular fan fiction thing where
Speaker 2: Luke and Layer swopped and the fanfic world took that
Speaker 2: and ran with it.
Speaker 4: Because there is an early version of Star Wars draft.
Speaker 3: That it was like that, right, And I do know
Speaker 3: she did tell me plenty of times that Luke was
Speaker 3: originally written as a woman, and then where there were
Speaker 3: stairs between Han and Luke, he would make sure that
Speaker 3: we knew that it would have changed everything if he
Speaker 3: was a woman.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel like I was just trying to pick the point,
Speaker 2: perhaps clumsily, that if Luke had been a woman, people
Speaker 2: would have assumed romantic things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly the point that you were saying. But yeah,
Speaker 3: definitely was like oh oh oh, I mean it makes sense.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of agreement. Ah and there and
Speaker 3: now I have never known, but you've definitely let us know.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. I went into detail about the uh, the
Speaker 4: hot scene and the sharing of the body heats.
Speaker 3: And and then like Han was supposed to leave, but
Speaker 3: then he heard Luke was in peril, so change.
Speaker 4: Oh I was so annoying. I'm sorry, No, you weren't.
Speaker 3: You weren't annoying. You were enjoying yourself. My partner was
Speaker 3: enjoying himself, and I was just there.
Speaker 4: Oh man, Well I really appreciate it. I meant the
Speaker 4: world to me to share.
Speaker 3: It with you. I was glad to share it with you.
Speaker 3: I was glad to see the excitement I think between
Speaker 3: those and aliens to watch movies with the two, well,
Speaker 3: especially you, because I think you and I have watched
Speaker 3: several movies together. But yeah, the excitement that you have
Speaker 3: because it definitely went with you to Spider Man Spider Verse,
Speaker 3: sorry scholars, as well as some of the Marvel movies.
Speaker 3: The joy, the pure joy. But this was the climax
Speaker 3: of it all.
Speaker 2: It's it's definitely like this and Harry Potter and probably
Speaker 2: this a little bit more. Is like I said, it's
Speaker 2: like my soul is part of my soul, and it
Speaker 2: does it made me think about the importance of storytelling
Speaker 2: and that we can enjoy all these things together and
Speaker 2: we can have all these interpretations of it, and it
Speaker 2: can be so impactful for a young child to see
Speaker 2: Princess Leigh and think, oh, I can't do.
Speaker 4: That, and that's really really powerful.
Speaker 2: And I feel like I grew up with these characters
Speaker 2: and sometimes I catch myself missing them, like I.
Speaker 4: Miss Princess Leah, and that's fair.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we've been talking for a while about this.
Speaker 2: We were gonna have some holiday special discussion, but I
Speaker 2: guess we'll table that. Oh And I wanted to put
Speaker 2: in on here that I was legitimately afraid to do
Speaker 2: this research, one that I'd never stop and two that
Speaker 2: I would come away feeling terrible about something that I loved.
Speaker 2: But like I said, why, I totally recognize Star Wars
Speaker 2: has its problems, that Star Wars fandom certainly has its problems.
Speaker 2: All this did was strengthen my love for the original
Speaker 2: trilogy and for Leya in particular.
Speaker 3: Right, I would say, as a person who came in
Speaker 3: in this day and age, I didn't feel it as
Speaker 3: problematic as some things like a John Hughes film for sure.
Speaker 3: And I okaye, I think Leah was a great character.
Speaker 3: I think knowing who Carrie Fisher was and also what
Speaker 3: she tried to represent also made it a bigger impact,
Speaker 3: and I could see why she was a phenomenal individual
Speaker 3: to play this character.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was perfect.
Speaker 2: Like we said in that one quote from the part
Speaker 2: one where it seems like just a million different things happened, correctly,
Speaker 2: like it was just so random of an amazing that
Speaker 2: this came together, and she was a huge part of that. Right,
Speaker 2: So I'm so thankful, Thankful for her, Thankful for it,
Speaker 2: Thankful for you, Samantha for sharing this with me, Thankful
Speaker 2: for listeners who maybe like, oh no, two hours.
Speaker 3: I don't know those people are going to say, oh no.
Speaker 3: I think they're going to appreciate the fact that you
Speaker 3: love it as much as you do, and they probably
Speaker 3: there's still a lot of people out there who loves
Speaker 3: it as much as you do.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm happy to share my love. And I could
Speaker 5: have kept going and going and going, as you know. Okay,
Speaker 5: so I know I mentioned it quiz, but again we've
Speaker 5: I've really gone on and on about this episode's already
Speaker 5: super long. It was supposed to be a one part
Speaker 5: episode and now it's two hours.
Speaker 3: To be fair, I knew it was going to be
Speaker 3: two part.
Speaker 4: The minute well.
Speaker 5: You know me so well, so we're not going to
Speaker 5: do the quiz in this episode, but we will do
Speaker 5: it later off screen.
Speaker 2: I'll I want to I know what character you get, Samantha.
Speaker 2: I have my theory and I want to see if
Speaker 2: I'm correct.
Speaker 3: You're going to have to write this out on a
Speaker 3: piece of paper or okay, email it to me and
Speaker 3: I won't open it.
Speaker 4: Okay, I got Luke Skywalker, which again I don't know
Speaker 4: what to make of that.
Speaker 2: I guess it goes back to my theory if we
Speaker 2: all ultimately love some version of ourselves who we want
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, So that brings us to the end of this
Speaker 2: epic two parter. I hope I did it justice and
Speaker 2: thank you again everyone. If you have any Star Wars
Speaker 2: thoughts you'd like to share, our ideas for future episodes
Speaker 2: or topics we should cover, please write them to us.
Speaker 2: Our email is Stuff Media Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
Speaker 2: or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, who was
Speaker 2: also a fan. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening
Speaker 2: Stuff I'm Never Told You, the production of iHeartRadio. For
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.