Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three oh seven of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard? My
Speaker 1: first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order right
Speaker 1: now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab your copy to
Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
Speaker 1: take when it's time to end of friendship. We'll have
Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. This week, we're
Speaker 1: revisiting an episode from our archives and diving into the
Speaker 1: world of EMDR. EMDR stands for imovement, desensitization and reprocessing
Speaker 1: and is a treatment method designed for treating trauma, PTSD, anxiety,
Speaker 1: and panic. Our guest for this In Case You Misted
Speaker 1: episode is Kelly Davis, a licensed professional counselor based in Memphis, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Kelly and I explored what EMDR is, how it works,
Speaker 1: and how it differs from traditional talk therapy. If something
Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session
Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister circles to talk
Speaker 1: more in depth about the episode. You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So, Kelly,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: You're welcome. So you are here to talk with us
Speaker 1: all about e MDR. So, first of all, can you
Speaker 1: tell us what those letters stand for.
Speaker 2: EMDR stands for Imovement, Desensitization, Reprocessing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what is that EMDR.
Speaker 2: Is a type therapy modality that creates RIM sleep, rapid
Speaker 2: eyemovement sleep at a waking state. It is believed that
Speaker 2: a lot of healing and repairing and restoring takes place
Speaker 2: in rimsleep. So essentially what MDR does is mimic rimsleep,
Speaker 2: but the client or patient is awake and very aware
Speaker 2: of what's going on. Many people mistaken for hypnosis. It's
Speaker 2: not hypnosis. They're awake, they're alert, and they're just kind
Speaker 2: of guided through correcting areas in their lives that need
Speaker 2: to be corrected.
Speaker 1: Okay, and so what is involved in this? Like it
Speaker 1: sounds like this may require like some kind of equipment
Speaker 1: or does it involve any kind of equipment?
Speaker 2: It can involve equipment. When it was first discovered and
Speaker 2: taught to different clinicians, clinicians were encouraged to create the
Speaker 2: eye movement process by taking two fingers and waving them
Speaker 2: back and forth in front of a patient, and patients
Speaker 2: or clients were asked to track the movement of the
Speaker 2: fingers going back and forth. And there's some polin issues
Speaker 2: that still use that. I personally use what are considered
Speaker 2: tappers that will bilaterally stimulate patients and that's what creates
Speaker 2: the rimsleep process. As long as the eyes are moving
Speaker 2: back and forth, then we are mimicking rimsleep. And that's
Speaker 2: the whole method of what's going on, the eye movement
Speaker 2: going back and forth.
Speaker 1: Okay, So these tappers that you're talking about, what would
Speaker 1: they be doing? You say they stimulate bilateral.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I do when I'm using Mdr Joy
Speaker 2: I will have clients or to hold the tappers in
Speaker 2: each hand and you can create the intensity of how
Speaker 2: they buzz back and forth. You can also control how
Speaker 2: fast the movements go back and forth. Some clients, I
Speaker 2: will have them to sit on top of them, to
Speaker 2: put one tapper under each leg or under each foot,
Speaker 2: because reprocessing traumatic events, you know, it's painful, and so
Speaker 2: when people get tearful, I like for their hands to
Speaker 2: be free if they would want to reach for kleenics
Speaker 2: or clench their hands. But every clinician is different.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So what clinical issues is e MD are
Speaker 1: typically used for.
Speaker 2: It's typically used for people survivors of traumatic experiences, primarily
Speaker 2: people with post traumatic stress disorder that have these disturbing
Speaker 2: events that try to process on their own. People try
Speaker 2: to work them out on their own, and the way
Speaker 2: they try to get worked out oftentimes are through nightmares
Speaker 2: and flashbacks. But nightmares people wake up and so they
Speaker 2: stop the process of trying to work through a traumatic experience,
Speaker 2: or if there's a flashback, the inclination is let's go
Speaker 2: ahead and stop it from happening. EMDR will go hit
Speaker 2: and encourage that in control setting and controlled environment.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this this feels like, is this something that
Speaker 1: works in tandem with something like cognitive behavioral therapy or
Speaker 1: is this like a different approach.
Speaker 2: I definitely think it could work in tandem with CBT.
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of clients that come to me
Speaker 2: they've used cognitive behavior therapy to try and to work
Speaker 2: through traumatic experiences. But that kind of keeps you intellectual,
Speaker 2: you know, just kind of in your head EMDR. And
Speaker 2: that's what I like so much about it. It encourages
Speaker 2: the emotional aspect that goes along with traumatic situations that happen.
Speaker 2: Most traumatic situations that happen to us, they kind of
Speaker 2: freeze a story. We're kind of stuck in time, so
Speaker 2: we can feel all of the all of the painful
Speaker 2: emotions are still stuck there. EMDR encourages becoming unstuck, and
Speaker 2: sometimes CBT just cannot reach a client at that level
Speaker 2: because EMDR can be very physiological. It is trapped in
Speaker 2: the body. There's some research that talks about MS multiple
Speaker 2: sclerosis could be considered trapped trauma. Trauma is trapped in
Speaker 2: the body. So EMDR encourages the processing at a cellular level,
Speaker 2: and that's a place that talk therapy tries really hard
Speaker 2: to reach. But in my experience, it can't quite get
Speaker 2: to it. And most clients will come to me and say,
Speaker 2: I've talked about this issue. I'm so I'm tired of
Speaker 2: talking about it. The talking gives it the relief, but
Speaker 2: it just doesn't get it to the level that that
Speaker 2: EMDR will will give a client too that I've seen.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this this all sounds really interesting and I
Speaker 1: want to kind of, you know, help everybody understand like
Speaker 1: what this exactly looks like. So somebody comes to you,
Speaker 1: you know, after a traumatic experience, maybe like a bad
Speaker 1: car accident or something, what kinds of things would happen
Speaker 1: in like the first couple of sessions, and what would
Speaker 1: like a course of treatment look like with em DR
Speaker 1: to help work through the trauma of a car accident.
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's a good example. Somebody comes to me
Speaker 2: with the car accident. EMDR has phases that you go through.
Speaker 2: The first phase would be the history taking asking the
Speaker 2: client exactly what happened, and from events that happened to us,
Speaker 2: we develop a narrative that oftentimes is self deprecating. Things
Speaker 2: we begin to believe about ourselves based on what happened,
Speaker 2: and the belief oftentimes could be I'm not safe, I'm
Speaker 2: not okay, I'm stuck, I'm going to die now. If
Speaker 2: the client made it to my office, of course we
Speaker 2: know that narrative is not true, but they're still living
Speaker 2: with that narrative that keeps them very hypervigilant. That could
Speaker 2: keep them from getting back into a car again or
Speaker 2: just not wanting to drive. So the EMDR process would
Speaker 2: take a client essentially back to that event and work
Speaker 2: hard to change the narrative. And you go back to
Speaker 2: the event with bilateral simulation, asking a client to close
Speaker 2: their eyes, asking them to think about what the worst
Speaker 2: part of that was while they're closing their eyes. It
Speaker 2: just depends on the client, but I will ask that
Speaker 2: they will talk to me through what's going on. For example,
Speaker 2: a client may say, I see the red light changing,
Speaker 2: and you know, I don't want to be there, don't
Speaker 2: want to get out. So what I would do as
Speaker 2: a therapist is almost kind of whole that scene and
Speaker 2: have a client sitting on my couch. Imagine going back
Speaker 2: to the client that was driving the car. Does that
Speaker 2: make sense what I'm.
Speaker 1: Saying, So kind of going back to that moment.
Speaker 2: Going back to that moment while you're still being bilaterally
Speaker 2: stimulated mm hm, and asking the client, you know, what
Speaker 2: is it you would like to say right now, and
Speaker 2: without prompting, most clients are able to say, you know,
Speaker 2: you're gonna be okay, You're gonna make it through. It's
Speaker 2: not gonna be good at the same time, you're gonna
Speaker 2: make it through. So with the bilateral stimulation, now the
Speaker 2: body in the brain is buying into the narrative that
Speaker 2: I'm safe, I'm gonna be okay, not coming out unscathed,
Speaker 2: but still say I survived this incident, and the bilateral
Speaker 2: simulation helps the client to take on that new belief,
Speaker 2: thereby releasing some of the anxiety that's associated with it.
Speaker 2: Prior to an MDR session.
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Kelly after the Break.
Speaker 2: Have you heard?
Speaker 1: My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order
Speaker 1: right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to
Speaker 1: learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
Speaker 1: why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
Speaker 1: take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have
Speaker 1: lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
Speaker 1: to miss it. Pre order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
Speaker 1: right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like maybe like your first couple of sessions are really
Speaker 1: kind of getting a lot of the background information about
Speaker 1: like setting the scene for the trauma so that you
Speaker 1: can then use that in your EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's setting the scene for it. And in this
Speaker 2: day in time, Joe, you have people with a lot
Speaker 2: of complex trauma, and it's not uncommon to realize I
Speaker 2: was in that car wreck and I was unsafe, but
Speaker 2: now I also remember there was another time in my
Speaker 2: life that I felt the same way. So it's very
Speaker 2: common to discover other traumas coming out of just one
Speaker 2: session and the whole narrative associated with what happened, possibly
Speaker 2: long before the car accident. Now, there's some research that
Speaker 2: shows that one em DR session can be equivalent till
Speaker 2: till about five talk therapy sessions in one of them,
Speaker 2: and there was some research there they would be equivalent
Speaker 2: to twelve talk therapy sessions, especially dealing with veterans of
Speaker 2: a post traumatic stress disorder. Just kind of the relief
Speaker 2: that you get out of one of those sessions. It
Speaker 2: encourages clients to come up really with their own insights
Speaker 2: and their own narratives, would without being prompted by the clinician.
Speaker 2: If I fall and break my arm, they're going to
Speaker 2: take me to the door. The doctor will set my
Speaker 2: arm in a cast, and as long as it's supported,
Speaker 2: our creator has given our body everything it needs to heal,
Speaker 2: that bone will go back stronger than ever. EMDR is
Speaker 2: kind of like taking the brain and setting it correctly
Speaker 2: around what happened, and so then the thinking goes in
Speaker 2: an area that's helpful and not an area that's maladaptive.
Speaker 2: It sets it correctly, and the brain has the potential
Speaker 2: to heal, just like any bone in our bodies, It
Speaker 2: just has to be set correctly.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a really powerful analogy, Kelly. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you mentioned and I would imagine I don't know
Speaker 1: how early in a session this would happen. When you said,
Speaker 1: if they could go back to that moment, like right
Speaker 1: at the red light, they would be telling themselves you're
Speaker 1: gonna be okay. I would imagine that doesn't happen in
Speaker 1: like the first session when you are using EMDR.
Speaker 2: And I will say this if I could digression us
Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, in the first session, there's
Speaker 2: a tool you can use with a EMDR called creating
Speaker 2: a calm safe place. So by being bilaterally stimulated, you
Speaker 2: help the client to create a place that is calm
Speaker 2: and safe that's only for them, and you talk them
Speaker 2: through moments of that using EMDR. So let's say, if
Speaker 2: I ask them to go to the red light, if
Speaker 2: that's too much for you, I will say, remember we
Speaker 2: created the calm safe place. It just depends on the
Speaker 2: amount of emotional resourcing a person has that a clinician
Speaker 2: would have to assess to see if they are ready
Speaker 2: for a quote unquote red light sceneman. So you're exactly right.
Speaker 2: The assessment important It depends on the emotional resourcing of
Speaker 2: somebody if they're equipped enough to be able to handle
Speaker 2: a thing like that. So depending on the resourcing, they
Speaker 2: could be ready during the first session and then maybe not.
Speaker 2: But you get that in the history take it part
Speaker 2: part of before you.
Speaker 1: Start, Okay, So those assessment sessions really do more than
Speaker 1: just get like the background of the trauma. They also
Speaker 1: talk about like what the person has been doing to
Speaker 1: cope with the trauma, like how ready are they for
Speaker 1: this intense type of experience?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely, you're exactly right. And sometimes certain medications will
Speaker 2: affect how effective EMDR can be. You know, most of
Speaker 2: the time Benzo's and opiates work against the whole process
Speaker 2: because that's supposed to relax you. You're not supposed to be heightened.
Speaker 2: But there are points of EMDR that can be very heightened.
Speaker 2: And if you're on certain medications, you can't quite get
Speaker 2: to where it is you need to be in order
Speaker 2: for the process to even be worthwhile. Right, So I've
Speaker 2: had people you know in the hospital that I work
Speaker 2: with that I go back to the position, how far
Speaker 2: can we cut back on this medication before we even
Speaker 2: try this process, because you would hate to re traumatize somebody.
Speaker 1: Right, So I want to go back to something that
Speaker 1: you pointed out that I find really interesting. So you
Speaker 1: mentioned that it's been your experience in some of your
Speaker 1: EMDR work that one trauma will then unearth these other traumas.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how then you begin working with like
Speaker 1: multiple traumas through the EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2: It's a very good question, Joy. We ask for a
Speaker 2: Suedge level based on a trauma, and SUGE s u
Speaker 2: d s It stands for a subjective unit of distress.
Speaker 2: And so when the scale of zero to ten will
Speaker 2: say how bad when you think about this event today?
Speaker 2: How bad it does it bother you? Ten it bothers
Speaker 2: me a lot. Zero doesn't bother me at all personally.
Speaker 2: If a SUGE is five or above, I feel like
Speaker 2: that's active trauma and it's probably affecting your life today.
Speaker 2: So the events that you know, if one trauma unearths
Speaker 2: another one, I'll assess and I'll get a SUDGE level,
Speaker 2: And if that distress level is high, then that's something
Speaker 2: that we need to work on. We need to process
Speaker 2: now something I do with my clients and my outpatient office.
Speaker 2: I'll do what's called an envelope system. When I believe
Speaker 2: that there are multiple traumas, and what that is is
Speaker 2: I ask clients to get an index card. Just give
Speaker 2: that event in your life a title, write that title down,
Speaker 2: put it in an envelope, and seal it. We don't
Speaker 2: open the envelope until you come in my office, so
Speaker 2: that means I'm not ignoring it. I know exactly where
Speaker 2: it is when it's time to deal with it. That's
Speaker 2: when I take it to session. Because most people with
Speaker 2: PTSD are very afraid with multiple traumas of losing control,
Speaker 2: so sometimes the envelope system gives them a sense of control. Now,
Speaker 2: each title that they name an event, I ask for
Speaker 2: a sudge level and people can come to work on
Speaker 2: a car wreck, but I'll look at a sudge level
Speaker 2: that happened twelve years ago, and this thing is still
Speaker 2: at a ten. It's like, Okay, WHOA, this holds a
Speaker 2: lot of weight right now, and we start the processing
Speaker 2: from that point.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, got you. So you mentioned that they would
Speaker 1: hold it until they come to your office. Is there
Speaker 1: a place that this is the EMDR not done in
Speaker 1: your office.
Speaker 2: It is done in my office. But the point that
Speaker 2: I give people the assignment, you know, just to say
Speaker 2: that I'm not ignoring it. I'm not forgetting it. I
Speaker 2: wrote it down for Kelly. It's on my dresser. I
Speaker 2: can't wait to take these to her office. I'm not
Speaker 2: asking you to deal with it at home or talk
Speaker 2: to your spouse or your kids about it. We got
Speaker 2: it on paper, it's sealed and all of the EMDR.
Speaker 2: You know that I do outpatient takes place in my
Speaker 2: office unless I'm seeing patients in a hospital, but often
Speaker 2: in my office if I'm working on one thing and
Speaker 2: I assess that there several others, and that is the
Speaker 2: case joy with a lot of African Americans, several others,
Speaker 2: meaning a theme of traumatic experiences that stand out. They
Speaker 2: really do favor and like the whole envelope system.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, I can imagine that does feel a
Speaker 1: little comforting, like they can kind of canted so to speak.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned you know that you found that,
Speaker 1: particularly with African Americans, they find that comforting. And I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if there are any special considerations related to E
Speaker 1: M d R when using with the with the black community.
Speaker 2: Prior to getting to we want to do. Em DR
Speaker 2: is convincing the African American community that what you're dealing
Speaker 2: with is trauma and is PTSD. We ask people out
Speaker 2: a lot of times, what's wrong with you? Or people
Speaker 2: may ask what's wrong with me, when the correct question
Speaker 2: is what happened to me? What happened to you? And
Speaker 2: it's getting African Americans to understand the things that happened
Speaker 2: to them, things that happened to us. Maybe they were
Speaker 2: not healthy, and maybe they were not intended to be harmful,
Speaker 2: but they were. So it's just kind of wrapping my
Speaker 2: mind around that this really is an issue and this
Speaker 2: is something that really has affected me. Once there's a
Speaker 2: buy in that here's something that I need to work
Speaker 2: on because a big part of it, too, Joe, is
Speaker 2: establishing trust. And I have to earn my way, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, especially with African Americans, into doing something like
Speaker 2: emd R, because the first thing they ask, okay, is
Speaker 2: this hypnosis? What does this mean? But earning my way
Speaker 2: into that, but getting them to understand that what's going
Speaker 2: on with me is unresolved trauma. The EMDR process then
Speaker 2: becomes a little easier because it is a very spiritual
Speaker 2: process and one thing I use with African Americans, they
Speaker 2: are quick to go back to. For example, I asked them,
Speaker 2: if you were sexually abused as a little girl, who
Speaker 2: would you like to take back to help rescue that
Speaker 2: little girl? Why the bilateral stimulation is going on. It's
Speaker 2: very common for them to say, I want to take
Speaker 2: God back, I want to take Jesus back, my big
Speaker 2: Mama back, I want to take those So to allow
Speaker 2: them to do that and for them to become tearful
Speaker 2: around that in a good way, they buy into the
Speaker 2: process a lot more. Or if I'm being clear on
Speaker 2: what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I know in some previous conversations before
Speaker 1: we started recording, you talked about the fact that e
Speaker 1: MDR can be really helpful because it allows you to
Speaker 1: get to a place that sometimes words can't. And I
Speaker 1: think that that would be particularly helpful for a lot
Speaker 1: of black women because there does tend to be like
Speaker 1: a guard there in wanting to share emotions. So if
Speaker 1: we're getting at it in a different way, then it
Speaker 1: kind of opens up the space for the words to follow.
Speaker 2: You're exactly right, And here's the thing in doing when
Speaker 2: you talk about unresolved trauma some of the events around
Speaker 2: what happened to us can be really shaming. What I
Speaker 2: like about EMDR is that it takes an element out
Speaker 2: of it because as the clinician, I don't have to
Speaker 2: know the details of what happened and how many times
Speaker 2: and where you were, and that's not nearly as important
Speaker 2: to me. What I'm looking for is that belief that
Speaker 2: you have about yourself because of what happened. That's the
Speaker 2: only thing I'm really concerned about, because that's really the
Speaker 2: thing that's kind of reakin habit, this belief that you
Speaker 2: have about yourself based on what happened. So EMDR helps
Speaker 2: to go back and change that narrative realizing that I
Speaker 2: was actually strong because I survived that, so I can
Speaker 2: take off the layer that I'm unworthy and I'm not
Speaker 2: good enough, so you look at the SuDS going down
Speaker 2: that when I think about the situation now, I'm not
Speaker 2: at a ten. I'm at about it two. It's things,
Speaker 2: but I can handle it a whole lot better. And
Speaker 2: when people come with sexual trauma, their fear is that
Speaker 2: you're going to force me to talk about it. If
Speaker 2: somebody wants to talk, I'm not going to shut them down.
Speaker 2: But that's not the expectation.
Speaker 1: So I can imagine in these sessions that you're bringing
Speaker 1: up a lot. There's likely even if it didn't start
Speaker 1: with emotion, there may be a lot of emotion kind
Speaker 1: of coming out of it. So I'm wondering, like what
Speaker 1: kinds of like homework or like what kinds of exercises
Speaker 1: or grounding kinds of things go along with like the
Speaker 1: that goes on in your office.
Speaker 2: I do give the assignment of letter writing to the
Speaker 2: part of you that endure that trauma. And the hope
Speaker 2: is what I'm looking for is that the person that's
Speaker 2: in my office or after the therapy, that we've invoked
Speaker 2: a little bit more compassion, because it's amazing when we
Speaker 2: come out of trauma, we're so upset with ourselves and
Speaker 2: we beat ourselves up and expect ourselves to heal all
Speaker 2: at the same time, and that just kind of doesn't work.
Speaker 2: It exacerbates even more trauma. Actually, But the homework assignment
Speaker 2: of definitely writing that letter and giving them permission to
Speaker 2: talk from the space of the trauma, meaning what does
Speaker 2: that eight year old liddle girl have to say today
Speaker 2: to a forty year old oftentime eight year olds, thank
Speaker 2: you for forgiving me, for realizing and it really wasn't
Speaker 2: my fault. And that's where the grounding comes in after
Speaker 2: the session is over and sometimes even during the session.
Speaker 2: Every patient, every session is different, but not only grounding
Speaker 2: the whole integration process of it. Integration meaning the d
Speaker 2: and MDR we desensitize it. Let's take the sting out
Speaker 2: because I did survive and I am okay. Now we're
Speaker 2: going to reprocess this and realize just how strong I
Speaker 2: actually was to even make it through that situation. So
Speaker 2: the letter writing helps with that.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you don't use like the bilateral
Speaker 1: stimulation necessarily in every session. Like a lot of what
Speaker 1: you're talking about is like narrative and like cognitive restructuring
Speaker 1: in some ways. So it's exactly right. Okay, So there's
Speaker 1: also a lot of like talking going on maybe with
Speaker 1: in the sessions that don't involve the stimulation.
Speaker 2: Yes, you are exactly right. The biledal stimulation with creating
Speaker 2: the rim sleep. It helps to get through the painful
Speaker 2: parts of the situation. Sometimes when I see a client
Speaker 2: is really struggling or really tearful and clenching. As I said,
Speaker 2: there are different speeds and various intensities on the tapers
Speaker 2: that I use, So I'll turn them up just a
Speaker 2: little in order to kind of make it over that,
Speaker 2: you know, make it over that hump. And there are
Speaker 2: times joy that I've turned them down and the client said, no,
Speaker 2: turn it back up. I'm in this place. I want
Speaker 2: to process that, I want to go ahead and get through.
Speaker 2: But you're exactly right. The bilotal simulation is not necessarily
Speaker 2: used through every setting, you know, every session regarding that.
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Kelly after the break. Have
Speaker 1: you heard? My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for
Speaker 1: pre order right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
Speaker 1: your copy to learn more about what role you play
Speaker 1: in your sister circles, why difficult conversations can make relationships closer,
Speaker 1: and steps to take when it's time to end a friendship.
Speaker 1: We'll have lots to talk about this summer, and you
Speaker 1: don't want to miss it. Pre Order your copy of
Speaker 1: Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. And
Speaker 1: is there a part of this that that a client
Speaker 1: would try to do at home? Like could a client
Speaker 1: induce this for themselves?
Speaker 2: Well? That's the first thing I say. Please, don't go
Speaker 2: home taping.
Speaker 1: On the body.
Speaker 2: Go home and tell people close your eyes. Let me
Speaker 2: sure you what I learned from telling. There are people
Speaker 2: that can order their own tappers, but you have to
Speaker 2: give a lot of paperwork into how much MD are
Speaker 2: you've actually had. You know, another therapist has to know
Speaker 2: that this is what you're doing. What I have encouraged
Speaker 2: clients to do is to kind of create their own
Speaker 2: tapping when I do the calm safe place element that
Speaker 2: you could help to enhance a safe place for you.
Speaker 2: And it's really not tapping, George, because we bilaterally stimulate
Speaker 2: all the time. We rock side to side. That's what
Speaker 2: that is, you know.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about self soothing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, self soothing we sway. So that's the only thing
Speaker 2: that I would encourage. But but not with tappers. And
Speaker 2: if you know a lay person tried to order tappers,
Speaker 2: now they have a lot of questions to ask you
Speaker 2: before they send them to you. You have to have
Speaker 2: a lot of proof of how much even MBR you've had.
Speaker 2: And like I said, those type things, but self soothing,
Speaker 2: you absolutely encourage that and I do that a lot.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, so you've already talked a little bit about
Speaker 1: how you see the suid scores go down between sessions,
Speaker 1: but can you also talk about any other improvements that
Speaker 1: you see kind of throughout the course of treatment with
Speaker 1: EMBR Yes.
Speaker 2: I think coming out of trauma, there are four behaviors
Speaker 2: that that people lean to in order to in order
Speaker 2: to survive. Fight, flight, freezing, a piece. You know. Fight
Speaker 2: is that being angry and defensive. Flight a lot of
Speaker 2: times is being suicidal. Drugs and alcohol. Most people that
Speaker 2: are suicidal, I don't think they want to die. They
Speaker 2: just want to stop hurting. People want to end their pain,
Speaker 2: not their life. Drugs and alcohol is flight behavior. They
Speaker 2: get drunk, they get high. You don't have to feel
Speaker 2: any pain. Freeze it's just kind of numb. You're checked out.
Speaker 2: And a piece is becoming that people pleaser to the
Speaker 2: point of even being abused. Often those four behaviors they
Speaker 2: try to take care of you. Coming out of EMDR
Speaker 2: A lot of times people will realize I don't use
Speaker 2: those behaviors as much as I used to, or am
Speaker 2: using them now with the right people. So that's a
Speaker 2: marker for me as a clinician that I look for.
Speaker 2: What has your fight behavior looked like, your need to
Speaker 2: please so that people won't hurt you or leave you?
Speaker 2: What has that looked like? How are you gauging that?
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what I look for, just behaviorally. How
Speaker 2: has therapy manifested therapy to me? The work is never
Speaker 2: in your office, it's outside of your office. How does
Speaker 2: that enhance the quality of life? So that's exactly what
Speaker 2: I look for, and have clients just report that back
Speaker 2: to me, because unprocessed trauma just leaves you hyper vigilant.
Speaker 2: You're waiting on that next hit to the point that
Speaker 2: you sabotage it or you even cause it all in
Speaker 2: an attempt to protect yourself, but it ends up causing
Speaker 2: new traumas. If that's my calmed down and an embr
Speaker 2: helps to calm that down, got you.
Speaker 1: I was not aware of the appease reaction, Kelly. So
Speaker 1: I've learned so much to just hear you talk, but
Speaker 1: the appeased reaction was a new one for me. It
Speaker 1: definitely helps to kind of bring to light some things
Speaker 1: when we hear about people having repeated traumas. And the
Speaker 1: point that you mentioned about ending up maybe in continuing
Speaker 1: abusive relationships because maybe they are trying to appease, would
Speaker 1: then lead to multiple traumas and joy.
Speaker 2: That is the biggest one for African American women, Oh god,
Speaker 2: that is the biggest one that appeased. And that apeace
Speaker 2: behavior is or you want my money, my mind, my body,
Speaker 2: what you want, whatever you want out do it. Just
Speaker 2: don't leave me and just don't hurt me. You know,
Speaker 2: that's the biggest one for us. And so one of
Speaker 2: my new favorite quotes about that we set ourselves on
Speaker 2: fire to keep other people warm, not realizing I am
Speaker 2: now working on a new trauma because I'm just trying
Speaker 2: to get them not to leave me and not to
Speaker 2: hurt me. And it's survival. We know how to survive.
Speaker 2: We don't know how to thrive. Yeah, you know, it's survival.
Speaker 2: But for Black women that appease, we're either angry or
Speaker 2: we are appeasing, two total opposite, you know, the polarities
Speaker 2: between that I'm fighting angry or try my best to
Speaker 2: please you, right, and all of that is surviving, try
Speaker 2: not to relive the impact of whatever that trauma was,
Speaker 2: and then again working on new traumas and then mad
Speaker 2: at myself because why do I keep going back to
Speaker 2: this situation that doesn't benefit me, But I think all
Speaker 2: of it is a part of just unresolved trauma, being
Speaker 2: educated about this is what I'm doing and why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are very good points, Kelly. So what resources
Speaker 1: can you give us for anybody who wants to maybe
Speaker 1: learn more about E and D R. And I also
Speaker 1: want you to maybe talk about like if somebody listens
Speaker 1: to this episode and thinks, oh, that's something that I
Speaker 1: really would like to try. Is there some kind of
Speaker 1: like directory your national organization where people can find like
Speaker 1: E M d R trained therapist.
Speaker 2: Yes, there is www. Dot MDREA, E M d R
Speaker 2: I a dot com or just google E M d
Speaker 2: R and whoever you go to that's trained in E
Speaker 2: M d R. They need to be a level two
Speaker 2: train E M b R. That's the highest level that
Speaker 2: you can go. But you want to be a level
Speaker 2: two train E M d R. Level one is a
Speaker 2: person that's getting trained that can do a little bit
Speaker 2: of a con save place but not necessarily reprocessing the trauma.
Speaker 2: So googling that you can find a level two train
Speaker 2: M b R and any clinicians that that would like
Speaker 2: to use it as a tool. I definitely think it's
Speaker 2: beneficial because the foundational parts of E M d R.
Speaker 2: Even if you don't do the bilateral stimulation, the foundational
Speaker 2: component is very important to be able to do talk
Speaker 2: therapy in my opinion, and that same information can be
Speaker 2: found on the E M d R website. The same
Speaker 2: information can be found, and the more you use it,
Speaker 2: you kind of tweak it to get it to your
Speaker 2: personality and the population of people that you use. The
Speaker 2: more you use it with anything, the sharper you get
Speaker 2: with being able to use it. It is definitely my
Speaker 2: go to. I like using it a lot, very very effective.
Speaker 2: Let me say this with children, very effective with children.
Speaker 2: It doesn't take them a long time to process. The
Speaker 2: reason is because they don't have a lot of memory,
Speaker 2: so they go directly to what that event is. Most
Speaker 2: of my adult patients often talk about how much better
Speaker 2: they would be if they had gotten the therapy at twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.
Speaker 2: So many different decisions they probably would have made because
Speaker 2: it would have been able to just kind of pluck
Speaker 2: up that you know, that that template that's been so negative.
Speaker 2: So it's very very very effective with the children as well.
Speaker 1: So also any resources like for maybe clients who are
Speaker 1: interested in learning more about like EMDR and how he
Speaker 1: can be useful. Any like udios or books that you
Speaker 1: really like.
Speaker 2: I love France A. Shapiro was a founder of em DR,
Speaker 2: So anything you read by Francin Shapiro, she was a
Speaker 2: founder of EMDR. She discovered it in nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 2: She I'm so sorry, I can't think of the title,
Speaker 2: but I think the body keeps the score is one
Speaker 2: that the clinicians go to a lot. The unspoken voice
Speaker 2: in an unspoken voice by doctor Peter Levine that he
Speaker 2: talks about trauma. And I heard doctor Levine speak, if
Speaker 2: I may say this joy at a trauma conference and
Speaker 2: he showed pictures of the nine eleven building, nine eleven
Speaker 2: when that happened in our country, and he kind of said,
Speaker 2: you see the people in the pictures that are running,
Speaker 2: that are moving, They're probably going to be okay. PTSD
Speaker 2: in trauma is all about this feeling of being stuck.
Speaker 2: So the MDR process helps to get you unstuck. That
Speaker 2: makes sense, yes, little, you know, so I often think
Speaker 2: about that because most people with PTSD and traumas it's
Speaker 2: feeling a trap and So Peter Levine talks about that
Speaker 2: a lot in his book in an unspoken voice of
Speaker 2: what that looks like. But the body keeps the scores
Speaker 2: probably one of the leading ones, and talking about just
Speaker 2: trauma and PTSD and some of the benefits of VMVR okay,
Speaker 2: and you know you can google and YouTube, you know,
Speaker 2: message boards. Clinicians are doing some awesome things with it,
Speaker 2: some awesome things with it. I mean it's almost a
Speaker 2: grab bag of learning the foundational part of it first
Speaker 2: and then tweaking it to your practice of what you're
Speaker 2: willing to do. I think everybody needs to be trained
Speaker 2: in it. But that's just me because it blows a
Speaker 2: myth away that you got to be in therapy for
Speaker 2: the rest of your life to work on trauma. People
Speaker 2: think this has got to be years of therapy to
Speaker 2: undo this stuff. That myth is gone. It goes away.
Speaker 2: You don't have to work on it forever, you know,
Speaker 2: six to eight sessions. That's kind of the you know
Speaker 2: what I'm to do with clients, whether that's the bilott
Speaker 2: of stimulation or not, but I definitely see a lot
Speaker 2: of movement and EMDR helps you jumpstart that. Gotcha.
Speaker 1: So Kelly I also want you to talk to us
Speaker 1: more about your practice and where we can find you
Speaker 1: online in any social media handles you want to share.
Speaker 2: Okay. I am in Memphis, Tennessee. Love being in Memphis,
Speaker 2: and I'm located in Midtown. My practice is the Mental
Speaker 2: and Emotional Resource Center incorporated in me RCI Mercy. I've
Speaker 2: been here since twenty eleven. Social media, I do have
Speaker 2: a YouTube channel that's called Life Management with Kelly with
Speaker 2: is the W and the slash and Kelly is k
Speaker 2: e l I and I'm talking about my work in
Speaker 2: trauma and PTSD on YouTube. I am contracted at the
Speaker 2: local behavior Health hospital here in Memphis and the director
Speaker 2: of grief and trauma therapy there. They've only had two
Speaker 2: directors and the first one was there about nineteen years,
Speaker 2: with her for five of those and when she left,
Speaker 2: I'm number two. So most people if they see me
Speaker 2: in the hospital, many of them will follow me outside
Speaker 2: of the hospital. You know, in the city, I'm known
Speaker 2: for my work with PTSD and trauma, so that's where
Speaker 2: a lot of my referral sources. That's where they come from.
Speaker 2: And as I said, I do this week in week
Speaker 2: out with child in adolescent, whether it's in the hospital,
Speaker 2: in my office geriatric adult. I use this skill a lot.
Speaker 2: So sometimes people say, and this may sound arrogant, is
Speaker 2: there anybody you know that as good as you with
Speaker 2: this type therapy? And I often say, joy, there are
Speaker 2: not many clinical clinicians in this city that have as
Speaker 2: much experience as I have because I do it week
Speaker 2: in and week out with various populations, and so the
Speaker 2: more you do it, the sharper you get with it.
Speaker 2: So I am a clinical supervisor now and to proved
Speaker 2: clinical supervisor. I do have two supervisors that are trained
Speaker 2: in trauma that are shadowing me at the hospital and
Speaker 2: even in my practice, and I'm so excited with what
Speaker 2: they will also be able to do with learning this
Speaker 2: tooluse I can see everybody right right, I can't, but again,
Speaker 2: I do enjoy it. So I'm found in Memphis. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you want my website or.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be included in the show notes, which you
Speaker 1: can share it now.
Speaker 2: Okay. It is www dot Mercymmphis dot org that just
Speaker 2: talks about how to get to me and things that
Speaker 2: I've done in the community.
Speaker 1: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of
Speaker 1: this information with us today. Kelly, I definitely, like I said,
Speaker 1: learn quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, George, You're welch.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Kelly was able to join me for
Speaker 1: this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com
Speaker 1: SASH Session three oh seven, and don't forget to text
Speaker 1: two of your girls and tell them to check out
Speaker 1: the episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist area,
Speaker 1: check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
Speaker 1: com SASH directory. And if you want to continue digging
Speaker 1: into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.
Speaker 1: Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennis
Speaker 1: and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
Speaker 1: this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
Speaker 1: you all real soon. Take good care. What have you heard?
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