Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session threeh eight of the Therapy
Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. This week we have
Speaker 1: a special episode for you, very near and dear to
Speaker 1: my heart and dedicated to the beautiful bonds of sisterhood.
Speaker 1: Many of you know that my debut book, Sisterhood Heels
Speaker 1: the Transformative Power of Healing in Community, releases on June
Speaker 1: twenty seven. It is a celebration of and a guide
Speaker 1: to the relationships black women have with one another. Well,
Speaker 1: the TVG team got some very early copies of the
Speaker 1: book and had a little book club of their own
Speaker 1: to chat about their thoughts, musings, and praise for Sisterhood
Speaker 1: Heels and we wanted to share it with you, but
Speaker 1: the conversation won't stop here. I want you to be
Speaker 1: a part of it as well, so please pre order
Speaker 1: your copy at Sisterhoodheels dot com so that you'll be
Speaker 1: able to join us and the fun as well. If
Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
Speaker 1: it with us on social media using the hashtag TVG
Speaker 1: in session and Sisterhood Heels, or join us in the
Speaker 1: Sister Circle to talk more about the episode at community
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation from
Speaker 1: our book club to yours.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Frida Lucas. I'm the senior producer here at
Speaker 2: the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, and I have the
Speaker 2: distinct honor to be in conversation with my fellow team
Speaker 2: members here at Therapy for Black Girls to discuss Sisterhood Heels,
Speaker 2: the upcoming book and the first book from our illustrious
Speaker 2: leader and founder of Therapy for Black Girls, doctor Joy
Speaker 2: Harden Bradford. And I can speak for myself, have had
Speaker 2: such an incredible joy reading this book and now being
Speaker 2: in conversation with you. Also, I'm very very excited for
Speaker 2: us to get started. Before we jump in talking about
Speaker 2: sisterhood heels, I would love to pass it over to
Speaker 2: the team to do introductions, and the first person I'm
Speaker 2: going to ask to do introductions is Nisha.
Speaker 3: Hello, I'm super excited to be joining you all today.
Speaker 3: I'm Naisha, and I am the community assistant with the
Speaker 3: Therapy for Black Girls Sister Circle. I love what I
Speaker 3: do with our community and I'm just feeling warm and
Speaker 3: fuzzy after going through my notes, just you know, ready
Speaker 3: to dive in.
Speaker 2: Let's pass it over to Kia. Hi.
Speaker 4: My name is Kia, and I'm the business manager here
Speaker 4: at Therapy for Black Girls. So I try to coordinate
Speaker 4: and make sure that the team is working as effectively
Speaker 4: and efficiently as possible. And I too, am excited to
Speaker 4: discuss this book because it reminded me of some things
Speaker 4: that I had already experienced in life and some things
Speaker 4: that I'm looking forward to implementing, so can't wait to
Speaker 4: get into it.
Speaker 2: And the one and only Gorgeous Hello, everyone, My name
Speaker 2: is Gorgeous.
Speaker 5: I'm the kind since specialist with the team with Therapy
Speaker 5: for Black Girls, I help in the community on Facebook
Speaker 5: as well as help pitch topics and thanks to discuss
Speaker 5: on the podcasts and Bob.
Speaker 2: And Lads, but most certainly not Lease Elise.
Speaker 6: Hey, everyone, I'm Eleisa Ellis, the producer of the Therapy
Speaker 6: for Black Girls podcast.
Speaker 7: I am so excited to discuss Sisterhood heels today.
Speaker 6: I absolutely love this book and I'm really proud of
Speaker 6: doctor Joy and preparing for this conversation, I was thinking
Speaker 6: about chapter three being your sister's keeper and being soft
Speaker 6: places to land for each other, and I think that's
Speaker 6: what we have here at this team. Was just so
Speaker 6: heartwarming to discuss it with you, guys. I'm excited to
Speaker 6: see how the Sister Circle talks about the book and
Speaker 6: just our entire audience's response to the release.
Speaker 2: All right, Elise, let's kick it off with these conversation questions.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, I already talked a little bit about one
Speaker 6: of my favorite parts of the book, chapter three, about
Speaker 6: being your Sister's Keeper, and I'm curious what sections of
Speaker 6: the books stood out to you guys and why Global Sisterhood.
Speaker 3: Definitely just from Joy because I'm like, yes, it's how
Speaker 3: you can help a sistem and going into the four
Speaker 3: s's of sistood, being seen, supported, and supporting ourselves as
Speaker 3: well as soften. Wow, just breaking that down so we
Speaker 3: can understand how we can work on ourselves and also
Speaker 3: be there for one another and also how to help
Speaker 3: another be seen. I'm like, yes, so we needed this
Speaker 3: for sure.
Speaker 4: I think I like to touch on the book like
Speaker 4: generally speaking, I thought it was such a good balance
Speaker 4: between academic and researched things that you could really take
Speaker 4: from and a conversational tone because I think sometimes that
Speaker 4: things tend to be more one than the other. And
Speaker 4: I thought like it really connected with me in a
Speaker 4: good balance because every time I was thinking, well, you know,
Speaker 4: what is the why behind this, it would pop up
Speaker 4: in a way that I could easily digest without having
Speaker 4: to you know, look up a whole bunch of things,
Speaker 4: but still feel like I had learned something. So that
Speaker 4: wasn't from one particular chapter, but just throughout the book.
Speaker 4: I thought that it was a really good way of
Speaker 4: weaving it together.
Speaker 5: I definitely agree with you, Kia from a therapist's perspective
Speaker 5: with the book, Doctor Joy definitely executed well the delivery
Speaker 5: of the Jardian and the definitions of attachment theory, Like
Speaker 5: she really broke it down, so, like you said, the
Speaker 5: way it was digestible to where you didn't need a
Speaker 5: degree in psychology or counseling to be able to understand
Speaker 5: these theories and mobalities and practices. I think to go
Speaker 5: back to your question, at least what was our favorite part.
Speaker 5: One of my favorite parts was where she broke down
Speaker 5: the attachment theory because a lot of people aren't aware
Speaker 5: of that, and how we attached in our relationships really
Speaker 5: plays a huge part in how we show up in
Speaker 5: our friendships.
Speaker 8: And even when she broke down and explained I think
Speaker 8: it was.
Speaker 5: Eric Ericksson's kind of like the Stages of development that
Speaker 5: was well written and well highlighted as well. I think
Speaker 5: giving people more insights so you can get the understanding of, oh,
Speaker 5: my relationships started here, and my relationship maybe with my
Speaker 5: younger sibling, I see that now being implemented my doctor,
Speaker 5: relationships with my best friends or whatever. So you need
Speaker 5: to kind of understanpanding the route and basis of friendship
Speaker 5: and relationships.
Speaker 8: That was one of my favorite parts.
Speaker 9: I really loved that.
Speaker 6: Part too, because I've read a bit about attachment theory,
Speaker 6: but it's always talked about in terms of romantic relationships,
Speaker 6: and so I think sometimes we can prioritize developing and
Speaker 6: growing in romantic relationships but not in friendships. And so
Speaker 6: there's a level of introspection in the book that I
Speaker 6: really appreciate. In addition to the attachment theory, the questions
Speaker 6: that doctor Joy wrote that I had to ask myself
Speaker 6: about how I'm operating in my friendships.
Speaker 7: I felt like that was really helpful.
Speaker 6: So I wasn't just reading to learn, but I was
Speaker 6: reading and processing a lot of things in the book
Speaker 6: to understand myself, and that was really helpful.
Speaker 2: So, Nisha, earlier on you brought up the essays of sisterhood,
Speaker 2: and I'd love for us all to touch on how
Speaker 2: do you receive and give sisterhood? And if you feel
Speaker 2: comfortable sharing experiences from your own friendships, I'd be delight.
Speaker 3: I didn't hear them, so when I was reading that,
Speaker 3: I obviously felt seen that I don't be asking for help,
Speaker 3: but thankfully I accepted help this weekend, and as I
Speaker 3: was going through my nose, I was like, Okay, nin
Speaker 3: you sure you didn't want to take that moment.
Speaker 9: Of help with you accepted it. I was literally.
Speaker 3: Walking to a Starbucks and it was a twelve minute
Speaker 3: walk but at three minute drive, and I had just
Speaker 3: slept an event and they two sisters.
Speaker 9: They saw me at the event.
Speaker 3: I was like, hey, sis, you just want to ride,
Speaker 3: And it was hard for me to say yes. And
Speaker 3: I've done that to other people, you know, Hey, come on,
Speaker 3: come on the car, come get a ride. I wasn't
Speaker 3: paying ten dollars for the Uber, so I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna walk this twelve minutes. It's nothing for me.
Speaker 3: But she was like, come on, get in, and I
Speaker 3: felt no hesitation at all. I still I felt nervous
Speaker 3: accepted help. Not nervous for safety and nothing like that,
Speaker 3: but accepting help. I'm like, why, Like, she's literally going
Speaker 3: down the block just like you. But I had to
Speaker 3: just support myself because you know, it was hot, my
Speaker 3: person was heavy because I had my laptop in it
Speaker 3: and it felt good.
Speaker 7: And then jumping into the support.
Speaker 3: Of course, she supported me at that moment, as I've
Speaker 3: done for other people in the same situation.
Speaker 9: Come on, just get in the car.
Speaker 3: Were in the same route.
Speaker 4: I was just going to say that I thought it
Speaker 4: was really helpful the whole idea of holding space and
Speaker 4: what that means.
Speaker 9: And I thought the fact that on page ninety three.
Speaker 4: That the three skills that are needed are active listening,
Speaker 4: freedom from distraction, and a spirit of curiosity. I thought
Speaker 4: that was really helpful to give people. Myself included bullet
Speaker 4: points on you know, I had a friend and I'm
Speaker 4: in that stage right now where people's parents are aging
Speaker 4: and you know, some of them are obviously dying, and
Speaker 4: so the idea of what that means to hold space
Speaker 4: for someone's grief has become very relevant.
Speaker 9: So that was a really good reminder for me.
Speaker 5: I think for me, the support is huge, especially now
Speaker 5: in this season, and I mean with just having a
Speaker 5: newborn baby. So being able to receive health is like
Speaker 5: I have to be okay with like my friends reaching
Speaker 5: out to me and shaking in on me instead of
Speaker 5: being like why are you.
Speaker 8: Still texting me?
Speaker 5: Like they're feeling annoyed with everybody asking how I'm doing
Speaker 5: and how I'm feeling, how the.
Speaker 8: Baby is doing, being able to say it's okay.
Speaker 5: People just want to check in on you, like it's okay,
Speaker 5: to be checked on, because I'm always that one to
Speaker 5: check on everyone else, and so since I am so
Speaker 5: i occupied, I'm unable to do that. Now people are
Speaker 5: checking in on me. It kind of feels a little weird,
Speaker 5: but I'm in a space to receive it. So I'm
Speaker 5: allowing myself to receive the support from my friends and
Speaker 5: then showing up for me like I show up for them.
Speaker 8: So that was a huge reminder for me when I
Speaker 8: read that party.
Speaker 6: For myself, when I was thinking about the fours is
Speaker 6: of sisterhood, one that I think a lot of people
Speaker 6: come to me for and that I get very freely,
Speaker 6: as like the knowledge of self. If I see a
Speaker 6: job that my friend might be good for him to
Speaker 6: send it. If I'm reading an article, I'm like, oh
Speaker 6: my goodness, I just thought of avery, I'm going to
Speaker 6: send it immediately. I'm really open to sharing my own
Speaker 6: experiences and like having my friend grow from them, but
Speaker 6: also just like, oh, at least, what is it like
Speaker 6: to be vegan? Or like where should I eat an
Speaker 6: x y Z place? Like that's very easy for me,
Speaker 6: but what's really hard for me is like to allow
Speaker 6: myself to be soft around other people. I think because
Speaker 6: I support people in that way. I don't know, I
Speaker 6: just get scared, I guess supporting myself and like allowing
Speaker 6: people to see that softer side of me. People tell
Speaker 6: me I can present like a rougher or not a rouffer,
Speaker 6: a tougher exterior, and so being more vulnerable with people
Speaker 6: around me, it can be like really scary, especially because
Speaker 6: I have a bigger family and I have like a
Speaker 6: lot of siblings. Sometime them like I don't need friends,
Speaker 6: but then I realize, like I really do need my
Speaker 6: friends in the same way that they need me.
Speaker 2: I'm hearing a lot of descriptors of the folks in
Speaker 2: this conversation, being the strong friend or the friend that
Speaker 2: does the reaching out, the friend who sends the resources,
Speaker 2: And it's making me think about how doctor Joey broke
Speaker 2: down the different type of friends in a group. So
Speaker 2: she just the leader, the wallflower, the firecracker, or the
Speaker 2: peace maker. And I'd love to hear from us all
Speaker 2: which one are you? And you might be a different
Speaker 2: kind of friend in a different group, So if you
Speaker 2: could share what kind of friends you are and then
Speaker 2: also give us a little bit of context for this group.
Speaker 2: Is it your high school girlfriends. Is it your friends
Speaker 2: that you met through your parents, Rita.
Speaker 8: I love how you distinguish the groups, because that's.
Speaker 5: The real thing when it comes to my high school friend,
Speaker 5: my college friends, my friends that I develop in motherhood,
Speaker 5: now my adult friends, and then my coworker friends.
Speaker 8: Like it's important that you.
Speaker 5: Distinguish the group because each each group either you were
Speaker 5: a different version of yourself when it developed, right, and
Speaker 5: so from my high school friends, they might still see
Speaker 5: me as the firecracker in certain spaces, I'm the one
Speaker 5: that's gonna be like, I'm gonna say it.
Speaker 8: If it is, I'm gonna call it elepant out in
Speaker 8: the room because why y'all being weird.
Speaker 5: And some of my college friends will see that too,
Speaker 5: because we went to high school together. So it's like
Speaker 5: an interchangeable role between that and the leader. My adult friends,
Speaker 5: college friends, grad school friends, motherhood friends, they.
Speaker 8: Will see more of the leader world of me.
Speaker 5: They don't necessarily see that firecracker because with.
Speaker 8: Age, I've tould me down right in maturity in life.
Speaker 8: But my high school friends.
Speaker 5: When they see me in spaces with the other groups
Speaker 5: of friends, they're looking at me like, well, who is that?
Speaker 5: Like is it a gorgeous We know, because normally you
Speaker 5: would have stay at this, So why you're acting scared.
Speaker 5: You're not gonna say what you feel.
Speaker 8: You know what I mean.
Speaker 5: But it's just in the sense of I'm still me,
Speaker 5: but I present different amongst different groups due to the relationship.
Speaker 5: I might feel a little bit more safer with my
Speaker 5: high school friends because of the longevity to.
Speaker 8: Be that firecracker. Right, It's about how safe you feel too,
Speaker 8: and how you show up.
Speaker 6: It's interesting that you mention safety because I feel safe
Speaker 6: when I'm not the only one being the leader in
Speaker 6: a friend group. And so I think, because of the
Speaker 6: nature of like my job, being a producer, you have
Speaker 6: to lead a lot, you have to organize a lot.
Speaker 6: And so when I find myself in situations where I'm
Speaker 6: the only one giving in that way, I get really
Speaker 6: nervous and I get overwhelmed because it's like, is this work?
Speaker 6: Like I don't like that, And so I think sometimes
Speaker 6: in a friend group, I'm looking for like a collective
Speaker 6: of leaders, and I know, like sometimes we can butt heads,
Speaker 6: but I hate feeling like I'm bearing the burden of
Speaker 6: like planning things or reaching out or like making sure
Speaker 6: everyone's being like really cohesive. But I will say, outside
Speaker 6: of being the leader, I am the firecracker. So I'm
Speaker 6: a Gemini, I'm a Sagittari's rising, like I'm not afraid
Speaker 6: to say it. And I think, you know, sometimes I
Speaker 6: think when I was younger, especially with my college friends,
Speaker 6: that could cause like a lot of tension. And that's
Speaker 6: where I found myself being like the firecrack but also
Speaker 6: being the peacemaker, like allowing everyone to say how they
Speaker 6: feel and being that person who can bring up difficult things,
Speaker 6: but also checking myself and like I'm not bringing up
Speaker 6: this difficult thing for drama or to call somebody out
Speaker 6: or to have some tea. It's like, no, I'm bringing
Speaker 6: it up so we can resolve it and we can
Speaker 6: move forward as a friend group. And so I think
Speaker 6: naturally i'm the leader, but where I feel my safest
Speaker 6: is when I can.
Speaker 7: Be the firecracker but also the peacemaker.
Speaker 3: When going through the descriptions, I'm like, I am a
Speaker 3: little bit of everything. And I was thinking about my
Speaker 3: family because I'm not around my family that often. It's
Speaker 3: particularly my father's side, and we're planning in the family reunion,
Speaker 3: and I was supposed to take the lead on it,
Speaker 3: but apparently people didn't want to come to New York
Speaker 3: and they planned something in Florida. So right now I'm
Speaker 3: kind of being the wallflower and being a little quiet,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, you know what, I'm going to still
Speaker 3: show up and be there, still be my firecrackerself when
Speaker 3: I get there. I'm leading things. When it comes to hey,
Speaker 3: who's watching all the kids because the family union, who's
Speaker 3: watching all the kids while the Millenniums go out to
Speaker 3: the club. I'll be leading that. And then when it
Speaker 3: comes to like serving our elders, I'm ready to make
Speaker 3: sure they're served and taken care of. When I was
Speaker 3: listening to at least when she was saying, you know,
Speaker 3: planning different things she produces, I am in the stage
Speaker 3: where I'm like looking forward to going to events where
Speaker 3: I don't have to put things together. As you all know,
Speaker 3: I do this for the Sister Circle, but I just
Speaker 3: want to be quiet and enjoy the event and not
Speaker 3: plan the event. I'm looking forward to that. I am
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur who I have to take the lead and
Speaker 3: just go for it and just show myself that I
Speaker 3: can be the lead. And it's okay of gorgeous also
Speaker 3: meant to something. As I get older, becoming more mature
Speaker 3: and as a parent, I talk so much. I'm like,
Speaker 3: I just want to be quiet and be that wallflower
Speaker 3: and relax.
Speaker 2: I have noticed in all of my friend groups, I'm
Speaker 2: the leader, and I attribute that to for talking astrology.
Speaker 2: I'm a cancer son with the Leo Moon, so trying
Speaker 2: to be very nurturing all the time, and also boss
Speaker 2: lady energy. And so recently, though, with one of my
Speaker 2: friend groups, the best way I can describe them is
Speaker 2: high school in post college. I met half of them
Speaker 2: through my friends that I knew when I was younger,
Speaker 2: and so that's the group. And I was a leader
Speaker 2: in this group, and I noticed, to Elisa's point, that
Speaker 2: I was the one always planning and coordinating our events,
Speaker 2: and I decided to take a sabbatical from this role.
Speaker 2: But I did not tell the group that I was
Speaker 2: doing that. And I noticed because I do it in
Speaker 2: every other category or in every other relationship that I
Speaker 2: have where i'm leading, I'm leading. I'm leading. I said, oh,
Speaker 2: if y'all want to be together, somebody else planned it,
Speaker 2: but I didn't tell them that. And so recently we
Speaker 2: got on the call that I planned because I took
Speaker 2: a year off from planning with these people, so I
Speaker 2: planned my first event of this year and they said, oh, Frida,
Speaker 2: we missed this so much. You know, we were really
Speaker 2: appreciated if you did this more. And it was the
Speaker 2: first time I said, okay, y'all, I'm happy to do this,
Speaker 2: but the next one, if you want this to happen,
Speaker 2: I need someone else to plan one. I need to
Speaker 2: see someone else take this up, because the reason I
Speaker 2: stepped away from y'all is because no one else was
Speaker 2: doing anything. And they said, but you didn't tell us.
Speaker 2: You didn't tell us you were upset, and then you
Speaker 2: left us for a year, and now we done missed
Speaker 2: out on a year of sisterhood. And I said, well, damn,
Speaker 2: you're right. So this book made me think of that.
Speaker 2: And also to the folks who identify as multiples, I
Speaker 2: realize I don't want to be the leader in every group.
Speaker 2: I'm about to start being a wallflower in some groups.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be a firecracker.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: I need to diversify how I show up because I
Speaker 2: notice I'm over indexing in this leader category and as
Speaker 2: a least said as a producer, coordinating and scheduling every day,
Speaker 2: and as Naisha said, coordinating and scheduling for other people.
Speaker 2: I need to figure out other ways to show up
Speaker 2: and feel like that's enough, because a lot of times
Speaker 2: I think, if I'm not leading, if I'm not directing,
Speaker 2: people aren't going to have a good time, or it's
Speaker 2: not going to happen. And allowing other people around me
Speaker 2: to rise to the occasion and do it their way
Speaker 2: without thinking that my way is better.
Speaker 1: More from the conversation after the break, so.
Speaker 6: We touched on the essays of sisterhood where we show
Speaker 6: up in our friendships. I'm curious, what else has the
Speaker 6: book taught you about friendship.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I felt like are really
Speaker 4: validated and putting really good terms for me is that
Speaker 4: I had started many years ago now thinking in my
Speaker 4: life concentrically and that as a pyramid where this is.
Speaker 9: On top and everything else flows from it.
Speaker 4: I decided that they had to be circles, like it
Speaker 4: just was serving me.
Speaker 9: Better to have things not have this hierarchy. I said.
Speaker 4: To see that written out and really validated the choices
Speaker 4: that I've been making and made me feel like, yeah,
Speaker 4: this is This is putting into words what I have
Speaker 4: been trying to do, because especially I'm at a stage
Speaker 4: in my life obviously much different than you all, where
Speaker 4: I'm about to have an empty nest. My son graduates
Speaker 4: from high school, my daughter is in college. So and
Speaker 4: I feel like the decisions that I made when they
Speaker 4: were small are coming to blossom because I was like,
Speaker 4: I cannot make them everything. They are the most important
Speaker 4: things in so many ways, but there's got to be,
Speaker 4: Like I said, the way I think I started thinking
Speaker 4: about it, with circles that overlap, intertwine, and that there's
Speaker 4: no better or worse, there's no scale like that. They're
Speaker 4: all things that bring value to my life, my friends,
Speaker 4: my family, and not just my husband up here and
Speaker 4: the kids. That's just to me, setting yourself up for
Speaker 4: not necessarily failure, but just not the richest life you
Speaker 4: can have.
Speaker 2: He is so fascinating that you came to this conclusion
Speaker 2: to implement this into your life. Was there a catalyst
Speaker 2: for this moment? How did you come to this understanding
Speaker 2: of the circles instead of the pyramid? Was there a
Speaker 2: moment that is distinguishable for you?
Speaker 4: No, I cannot say that there was any aha moment,
Speaker 4: it just became more and more apparent that, like I said,
Speaker 4: I come from a relatively patriarchal situation in terms of
Speaker 4: the very tereotypical head of household, and not in a
Speaker 4: bad way, but in a way that I was like,
Speaker 4: I'm going to learn from this, and I've been very
Speaker 4: fortunate that I have a partner who's very respectful of
Speaker 4: that and very supportive of that because I came to
Speaker 4: this conclusion with him, and not because he was a
Speaker 4: certain way, but because this was a man who was like,
Speaker 4: the fullness and richness of your life is very important,
Speaker 4: whether or not we're together or not, So you need
Speaker 4: to do whatever is going to fertilize and help that bloom.
Speaker 3: It's so funny when doctor Joy put in, she says,
Speaker 3: she's going to say the most cliche thing a therapists say,
Speaker 3: everything starts with our earliest experiences. Goodness. This has come
Speaker 3: up in individual therapy, of course, and now recently grouped therapy,
Speaker 3: because I've been in group therapy for about four or
Speaker 3: five weeks, and we all agreed that, you know, our
Speaker 3: early experiences helps us understand why we're going through what
Speaker 3: we're going through now while we're seeking growth in different areas.
Speaker 3: Me specifically, asking for help was something that I did
Speaker 3: not grow up doing. My mom told me to figure
Speaker 3: it out, and collectively in group therapy, we said that
Speaker 3: a lot of family members told us that. Me specifically,
Speaker 3: a teacher told me to figure it out, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: you're my teacher and she's supposed to help me. Actually
Speaker 3: she was one of my favorite high school teachers, but
Speaker 3: that was her way of telling us. Use the internet. Now,
Speaker 3: you know, the internet was booming and just be creative.
Speaker 3: And we didn't know how to ask those things back then.
Speaker 3: And I can say for myself speaking to my mom,
Speaker 3: if she told me to figure it out, I had
Speaker 3: to go figure it out. So now, being an adult,
Speaker 3: as you were mentioning, free to plan in these things
Speaker 3: rather than going to ask someone, I will been twenty
Speaker 3: minutes of loogle trying to find an answer. So now
Speaker 3: I'm getting like, no, not, you should don't do this.
Speaker 8: I have.
Speaker 3: Thankfully I made friends from the Sister Circle from three
Speaker 3: for Thursday in Georgia specifically where I could ask questions
Speaker 3: when I need help. That's just a small example, but
Speaker 3: there's so many examples that I could share that my
Speaker 3: childhood just shaped who I am, and I'd love to
Speaker 3: touch on point as being a mom now. My childhood
Speaker 3: showed me what I don't want to show my child
Speaker 3: and how I want to be here for her. The
Speaker 3: other day, my five year old told her her other mom,
Speaker 3: I can cry because my feelings are valid, and I
Speaker 3: said yes, clap clop, clap, snapstat snap all that there
Speaker 3: was no debate. We said yes, and she said all
Speaker 3: feelings are valid. And I'm like, did I tell her that?
Speaker 3: I think I did. If I did it, I'm happy
Speaker 3: wherever she heard it from. It could have been on YouTube,
Speaker 3: but I wasn't told that when I was younger.
Speaker 6: I think that's really insightful, Like everything starts with like
Speaker 6: our previous experiences, our childhood experiences, and it reminds me.
Speaker 6: On page eighty eight, doctor Joy writes about trying to
Speaker 6: figure out how your own stuff is interfering with being
Speaker 6: able to hold space for someone else.
Speaker 7: And I think that's one.
Speaker 6: Of the biggest things at this book kind of knocked
Speaker 6: me over the head with is like everyone wants to
Speaker 6: be a great friend, but sometimes we have to realize
Speaker 6: when we're giving advice or when we're showing up for someone,
Speaker 6: how our past traumas, our experiences, our other relationships might
Speaker 6: be blocking or kind of blurring our vision.
Speaker 7: And one of the questions that she.
Speaker 6: Asks on that page is, is the situation my sister
Speaker 6: is confiding in me about too much like when I've
Speaker 6: experienced in the past. Am I really listening to her?
Speaker 6: Or am I replaying my own situation? And I found
Speaker 6: myself on both ends of that spectrum. So someone talking
Speaker 6: to me about something they're going through and me like
Speaker 6: feeling really triggered and like having a lot to say
Speaker 6: about it, but not backing up and realizing a lot
Speaker 6: of what I have to say is kind of based
Speaker 6: off of my own hurt and something I may have
Speaker 6: gone through and I may have experienced, and I'm not
Speaker 6: really listening to her and like holding space for what's
Speaker 6: going on with her because I'm so clouded with my stuff.
Speaker 6: And so I think what you said, Naisha, really recognizing
Speaker 6: what you want to do differently in a situation when
Speaker 6: you're giving advice, but also realizing that like to really
Speaker 6: hold space for someone and for other people means that
Speaker 6: you kind of have to let go of your past
Speaker 6: hurt and you can always be a friend from an
Speaker 6: informed place. But I really think a lot of time
Speaker 6: we get so wrapped up and so attached to our
Speaker 6: own hurts in the past that we're not able to
Speaker 6: really be there for other people. So I think that's
Speaker 6: something the book has really made me think.
Speaker 7: About a lot.
Speaker 6: And I love this book because I think it's encouraging
Speaker 6: us to take our friendships just as seriously as we
Speaker 6: take our romantic relationships, and so a lot of those
Speaker 6: questions kind of prompt me to continue to do that.
Speaker 2: One thing this book has taught me and shared with
Speaker 2: me is a toolkit of language to have difficult conversations
Speaker 2: with people, and doctor Joy broke it down for so
Speaker 2: many scenarios that I can anticipate having. So for me,
Speaker 2: I'm turning thirty this year, and I'm at that place
Speaker 2: where people are going to start having more children, more marriages,
Speaker 2: and then you know, for this thirties decade, there could
Speaker 2: also be divorce. There could also be parental loss. There's
Speaker 2: just going to be a lot of things that I
Speaker 2: anticipate is going to happen to and around the people
Speaker 2: that I love, and I just want to share one
Speaker 2: of them, which was if you've noticed a change in
Speaker 2: your friend since your engagement or wedding. She writes, Hey,
Speaker 2: I just wanted to check in with you. It feels
Speaker 2: like something's been off ever since I got engaged slash married.
Speaker 2: I know this is a huge change for all of us.
Speaker 2: Is there anything you want to check in about? There
Speaker 2: was one for that. There was one about having a baby.
Speaker 2: If your friend is having a difficult time conceiving and
Speaker 2: you're really excited, but you know they're dealing with something.
Speaker 2: And at this place in my life and in reading
Speaker 2: this book, it affirmed for me that the friends that
Speaker 2: I have will be open to these kinds of conversations,
Speaker 2: that we can get through them, and the power in
Speaker 2: that as opposed to what I may have done in
Speaker 2: my teens or in my twenties, which is just fade away.
Speaker 2: But in reading this book, I realized, Oh, I'm going
Speaker 2: to need these friends throughout this decade, through the forties
Speaker 2: through the fifties, this strong sisterhood and having this language
Speaker 2: to identify these conversations. And as I think at least
Speaker 2: you pointed out a aspect of curiosity and almost like
Speaker 2: an optimism that this conversation is going to go well
Speaker 2: because I know my sister and I am proactively speaking
Speaker 2: about it. It just made me feel not like I'm
Speaker 2: excited to have these conversations because I'm not, but feeling
Speaker 2: empowered that I actually can navigate them well.
Speaker 5: I think you spoke a huge point for you to
Speaker 5: in that ability to navigate it well and being able
Speaker 5: to speak to it well, because I think that that's
Speaker 5: a common fear for a lot of people, right, like,
Speaker 5: what do I say? I don't want them to think
Speaker 5: I'm jealous. I don't want want them to think or
Speaker 5: feel no type of way. I don't want this to
Speaker 5: make our friendship, you know, change, So it's like handing
Speaker 5: that optimism I think definitely is a key factor and
Speaker 5: a key point. And I was going to speak to
Speaker 5: that part of the book too, that was the part
Speaker 5: I was going to life, but no, you you definitely
Speaker 5: hit the points that I don't really hit on. So oh, yes,
Speaker 5: I agree with you on that one.
Speaker 4: And at a certain point, I know she says that
Speaker 4: the validation of change being okay, that sometimes you have
Speaker 4: to leave the people where they're at and that's okay.
Speaker 4: And I think just having that put out there and
Speaker 4: explicit terms was really helpful because you know, you go
Speaker 4: back and forth about different things, and there are certain
Speaker 4: situations that'm not salvageable and that's okay. And you have
Speaker 4: to be at peace with the ending of it that
Speaker 4: there's not necessarily going to be closure with it, and
Speaker 4: that's okay.
Speaker 9: And like I said, as somebody.
Speaker 4: Who's very solution oriented, like you tell me something, then
Speaker 4: I'm going to ask you a d C D that
Speaker 4: acceptance of things is something that I definitely have to
Speaker 4: be very conscious of because it's difficult for me.
Speaker 2: Kia. You brought up closure, and when doctor Joy wrote
Speaker 2: closure is not something other people give to you, I
Speaker 2: put the book down. I say, wow, Okay.
Speaker 4: On that same note, there's an author called Cheryl Strait.
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that acceptance is a small quiet room.
Speaker 4: And I feel that so much because acceptance isn't this great,
Speaker 4: big feeling.
Speaker 9: It's okay, you.
Speaker 4: Know, it's not an oversized emotion necessarily, it can be
Speaker 4: something very I mutant and only like you said, like closure,
Speaker 4: it's cousin.
Speaker 3: Freedom. When you mentioned that line, I'm just like it
Speaker 3: was like a godcousness, like you need to figure this out,
Speaker 3: and not in the most common way. It doesn't come
Speaker 3: from the other person. And after being on three for
Speaker 3: Thursday with Doctor Joy for almost two years, she's brung
Speaker 3: this up many times. So you know, working on yourself
Speaker 3: will help you heal, you're expecting it from the next person,
Speaker 3: then you know it's going to take a little longer.
Speaker 3: And these are her exact words, that process is going
Speaker 3: to take a little longer than you expect. And it's
Speaker 3: just bad line. And I went back to it and
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, period. She said it.
Speaker 1: More from the conversation after the break.
Speaker 6: So for our next question, it kind of touches a
Speaker 6: little bit on what Frida mentioned earlier about approaching conflict
Speaker 6: and friendships, and she's talked about how she implemented that
Speaker 6: in some of her own friendship So I'm curious, what
Speaker 6: have you guys taken from the book and how have
Speaker 6: you already started to implement it in your own friendships.
Speaker 6: I'll start so similar to Frida, I really love the
Speaker 6: section about conflict because, as I said before, I am
Speaker 6: the erecracker but also the peacemaker, and I.
Speaker 7: Think I've always struggled.
Speaker 6: I've been good at being confrontational, but struggled to have
Speaker 6: like a soft and caring aspect to it, and so
Speaker 6: I really appreciated a lot of the prompts. I guess
Speaker 6: they take an approach that's not confrontational, because Frieda wret
Speaker 6: the prompt about someone getting engaged and seeing their friend
Speaker 6: be distant. You could be like, you're being really shady
Speaker 6: ever since I got engaged.
Speaker 9: I don't like that.
Speaker 6: Instead of realizing, like where is this other person operating from,
Speaker 6: they may be heard. And so I think what the
Speaker 6: book has made me see our ways I can continue
Speaker 6: to exude softness but also continue.
Speaker 7: To approach conflict in a healthy way.
Speaker 6: And I think something I think about is back in
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, I had a friend who I approached about
Speaker 6: just not a very similar situation not hearing from her,
Speaker 6: especially during the pandemic. We lived around the corner from
Speaker 6: each other, we were only people in our city, and
Speaker 6: I remember I had a lot of pent up aggression
Speaker 6: about that situation.
Speaker 7: But something from like six.
Speaker 6: Months ago, and then something from two weeks ago, and
Speaker 6: I was realizing I came to her and I was
Speaker 6: at level ten.
Speaker 7: And she didn't even know that something was wrong.
Speaker 6: And so I constantly think about also looking at my
Speaker 6: own past her and like what feelings with my friends?
Speaker 6: Haven't I resolved in approaching any conflict, because, like Naisha said,
Speaker 6: the past really does inform everything we do and how
Speaker 6: we operate in every relationship, and so we're not taking
Speaker 6: the steps to address conflict as it's presented to us,
Speaker 6: we can have a lot of pent up aggressions, so
Speaker 6: that softness and that care to our friendships can kind
Speaker 6: of be lost when we want to resolve conflict if
Speaker 6: we're not really checking in with ourselves and then if
Speaker 6: we're not thinking about where's the other person on this scale?
Speaker 6: Have we talked about this before or is this like
Speaker 6: a new issue that I'm bringing up to them?
Speaker 7: And so the book has really helped me. I started
Speaker 7: to be a lot more self aware when approaching conflict.
Speaker 7: But who else I'm curious?
Speaker 4: I think for me just a reminder to be intentional
Speaker 4: and that to continue to cultivate new friendships, new relationships,
Speaker 4: that it doesn't have to be static.
Speaker 9: That it doesn't mean that you're going to.
Speaker 4: Necessarily feel the same sense of kinship with people who
Speaker 4: you've known for decades. But the way to cultivate anything,
Speaker 4: like I said, is to be intentional about it and
Speaker 4: to really be open to continuing to be there for
Speaker 4: the black women who I'm at encounter in more casual situations,
Speaker 4: to be, like I said, really purposeful and cultivating relationships
Speaker 4: with them, which I think I have been, but just
Speaker 4: a reminder to go that extra mile because we're all we've.
Speaker 8: Gone, I think.
Speaker 5: For me, it definitely reminded me that my close friends
Speaker 5: don't live here in Atlanta, right, and so it's like, oh,
Speaker 5: you need to like find and put yourself back out
Speaker 5: there now, especially since things are a little bit more
Speaker 5: safer regarding.
Speaker 8: The pandemic and meet more people like BRNT and I know.
Speaker 5: People, but I need to spend time and engage. It's
Speaker 5: like I haven't fully invested like I should. And so
Speaker 5: it was a huge reminder of like, if you want
Speaker 5: things to look different, you want that support to be
Speaker 5: more immediate and accessible to you instead of long distance,
Speaker 5: then I have to, you know, show up and really
Speaker 5: put forth effort.
Speaker 2: What she said gorgeous made me think about a song
Speaker 2: I learned in elementary school, and it was make new friends,
Speaker 2: but keep the one is sober and the other there's gold.
Speaker 2: I also recent I love that song. I don't know
Speaker 2: if y'all learned that it's a very California school song. Anyway.
Speaker 2: I also just moved to a new place. I'm in Washington,
Speaker 2: DC and realizing the same thing. I actually need to
Speaker 2: not be team no new friends, and if I want
Speaker 2: d C to be as wonderful and miraculous as other
Speaker 2: places I've lived, like New York City or the Bay
Speaker 2: Air to be fruitful and bountiful, I have to take
Speaker 2: that extra step and work on those relationships. I will
Speaker 2: also say this past weekend I had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: go to Los Angeles to celebrate my friend's thirtieth birthday,
Speaker 2: and weeks leading up to it, I was very reluctant.
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if I was going to be able
Speaker 2: to go, and I just wasn't sure if I was
Speaker 2: wanting to spend the money and do all those things.
Speaker 2: And then I think it affirmed for me that the
Speaker 2: right friends and the commitment to the right friends really
Speaker 2: just energizes me in a way I can't even describe.
Speaker 2: So spending one weekend with her makes me feel like
Speaker 2: I have the energy for March in April and May.
Speaker 2: It was just that kind of experience and how real
Speaker 2: sisterhood whether it's seven years old or whether you know
Speaker 2: it's just seven months old, really impacts my health. And
Speaker 2: I think that's also one key takeaway from the book.
Speaker 2: Black women make me feel healthier, safer, more able to
Speaker 2: be myself and to be in this world. And I
Speaker 2: had never thought of it like that, even growing up,
Speaker 2: going back to what we were talking about, our experiences,
Speaker 2: our shape by our past or remember elders in my
Speaker 2: community telling me things like, oh, you know, don't keep
Speaker 2: your friends too close, or don't tell your friends about
Speaker 2: your money, don't tell your friends about your man. And
Speaker 2: then one day I was like, do you have friends?
Speaker 7: Do you do you have friends?
Speaker 2: Because what you're telling me is to fear the black
Speaker 2: women that are around me. And granted, caution is necessary.
Speaker 2: Everyone cannot be trusted. But I am so deeply moved
Speaker 2: and poured into by black women and so that's what
Speaker 2: this book reminded me of. It's just the power of
Speaker 2: friendship in a way that I had never thought about before.
Speaker 3: That's the joy. I actually mentioned that I forget which chapter,
Speaker 3: but she said, you know, after that girl's trip and
Speaker 3: you feel full and you feel whole. Yes, it happened
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 4: Freda and it reminded her respect and take something some
Speaker 4: elders and to discard others. Right, you have to figure
Speaker 4: out what to take and what to leave behind, because
Speaker 4: I know the same.
Speaker 9: It's true, you know, in terms of generational things.
Speaker 4: I remember I was at a family wedding and a
Speaker 4: woman who I loved dearly and respected so much. When
Speaker 4: she found out, I was like excited to tell her, Oh,
Speaker 4: I work with all.
Speaker 9: Black women, and she was like, how is that.
Speaker 4: It just felt very like, this is a black woman
Speaker 4: who I've known because she was like because she was
Speaker 4: bringing her own previous experiences, and I was like, it
Speaker 4: is truly wonderful. And like I said, this is somebody
Speaker 4: who has always been very supportive of me and just
Speaker 4: so inspirational. So to hear her try to give me
Speaker 4: her hurt in some ways it was or to color
Speaker 4: my experience with hers.
Speaker 9: I felt, just like I said, it was very eye
Speaker 9: opening to me.
Speaker 2: So for our closing, we'd love to hear why do
Speaker 2: you think this book is important to have in the
Speaker 2: library of another black woman? Why would another black woman
Speaker 2: want to have this book in her library.
Speaker 5: I think it would be important because this book is
Speaker 5: something you can grow with in the sense of starting.
Speaker 8: Maybe whether it's Genant's eighteen or young adulthood. Throughout the
Speaker 8: transition of adulthood.
Speaker 5: It grows with you and you can always reference that
Speaker 5: depending on the chapter phase you were in in life
Speaker 5: and have to navigate different relationships and situations.
Speaker 3: Every Black woman needs this book in their lives because,
Speaker 3: as Reeda mentioned earlier, there's a toolkit on how to
Speaker 3: approach different conversations and rather than going to someone who
Speaker 3: has not seen the research and done the research themselves,
Speaker 3: the toolkit is there as well as if you want
Speaker 3: to be seen and if you want ideas or how
Speaker 3: to grow sisterhood, Heels will definitely give that to you.
Speaker 4: I think the word decolonized is thrown around a lot.
Speaker 4: Decolonize your fitness, decolonize different aspects of your life, but
Speaker 4: I don't think people necessarily know what that means or
Speaker 4: how to do it. And I think that this book
Speaker 4: really is a key or it's how to take frameworks
Speaker 4: that weren't meant for us and really apply them in
Speaker 4: ways that can benefit.
Speaker 9: Us and allow us to grow.
Speaker 4: So, like I said, I think that that's one of
Speaker 4: the buzzwords that you hear people talk a lot about
Speaker 4: but just see ways in which you can heal, but
Speaker 4: that are outside of the standard ways that we've been taught.
Speaker 6: I think Sisterhood Heels is important in another Sister's bookshelf
Speaker 6: because a lot of life can feel like we're just
Speaker 6: winging it, and I don't think our relationships have to
Speaker 6: feel that way. I think sometimes we talk a lot
Speaker 6: about friendships being natural and connections being natural, and that's
Speaker 6: great and that's fine, but to maintain and to grow
Speaker 6: it does take a lot of heart, hard work. And
Speaker 6: I don't think it's wrong to listen to a podcast
Speaker 6: episode there for black girls to read Sisterhood Heels, or
Speaker 6: to go to a talk the Sisterhood Heels book tour
Speaker 6: and get your friendships together and really like check yourself
Speaker 6: and say how can I be a better friend?
Speaker 7: How can I be a better sister?
Speaker 6: And so I encourage everyone to buy the book, to
Speaker 6: read the book, to share a copy with the friend,
Speaker 6: because friendship doesn't have to be hard.
Speaker 7: It doesn't have to be this big.
Speaker 6: Secret or something that just happens and unfolds naturally like
Speaker 6: thirty forty year. Friendships really do take hard work, and
Speaker 6: I know everyone wants.
Speaker 2: That beautifully said by all of you, by all of us.
Speaker 2: Sisterhood Heels is available for purchase at all booksellers as
Speaker 2: of June twenty seven, twenty twenty three. It has been
Speaker 2: our honor to talk with you about this book, and
Speaker 2: prayerfully we'll be able to do this again, because this
Speaker 2: is just scratching the surface of the incredible work doctor
Speaker 2: Joy has done to put this book together for all
Speaker 2: of us to enjoy and grow from. So thank you
Speaker 2: all so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: So As many of you may have been able to tell,
Speaker 1: I was not a part of the conversation the team had,
Speaker 1: and I'm so honored and touched by all of their
Speaker 1: takeaways and the stories they shared. A huge thank you Takiya, Gorgeous, Frieda, Elise,
Speaker 1: and Naisha for letting us inside their book club. I
Speaker 1: would also be honored if you would take a moment
Speaker 1: to pre order your copy of Sisterhood Heels right now,
Speaker 1: as pre orders are incredibly important to the life of
Speaker 1: a book. They are would demonstrate that there is interest
Speaker 1: for a particular topic and really indicate to bookstores, publishing companies, etc.
Speaker 1: That you want more of a certain thing. Pre Orders
Speaker 1: let stores know how many books to have on hand,
Speaker 1: and I want as many sisters as possible to be
Speaker 1: able to find out about Sisterhood Heels, So please help
Speaker 1: me out by making your pre order today at Sisterhoodheels
Speaker 1: dot com and then text two of your girls to
Speaker 1: encourage them to grab it as well. If you're looking
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Elise Ellis
Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so
Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward
Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 8: Take good care.
Speaker 3: What's