Speaker 1: This is Teddy tepod. Hi guys, who, We're back again
Speaker 1: number three of Teddy tea Pod and I am really
Speaker 1: revved up, like really revved up. I have like I
Speaker 1: got here thirty minutes early because I just needed to
Speaker 1: know all of the answers so many questions. Starting off
Speaker 1: with narcissism. I have Dr Romani here with me who
Speaker 1: and then Jill is going to be co hosting with
Speaker 1: me today because I've heard she has some experience on
Speaker 1: a topic which I tried googling and I couldn't find
Speaker 1: that out. So you're gonna have to enlighten me. But
Speaker 1: first and foremost, first question, if you're listening to this,
Speaker 1: for you, what is a narcissist? Okay, so, a narcissist
Speaker 1: A lot of times we think it's just the person
Speaker 1: who likes to look at the mirror and loves themselves.
Speaker 1: It's actually something very different. These are people who lack empathy.
Speaker 1: They're really grandiose, they're entitled, they're arrogant, they're always seeking
Speaker 1: admiration and validation. They don't tolerate frustration well and they
Speaker 1: get really rageful. Uh. They don't really respect the rights
Speaker 1: of other people. They're manipulative, They take advantage of other people,
Speaker 1: not nice people. They sound like a real dream and
Speaker 1: they can also sometimes be very victimy. They'll, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll blame all of any issues that even they've caused.
Speaker 1: They'll blame the world for them. They never take responsibility
Speaker 1: for anything. Okay, So going back on that, what creates
Speaker 1: a narcissist, So at the core a narcissist is someone
Speaker 1: who's really insecure. You know, we were told this as kids,
Speaker 1: like the bullies are the insecure kids in some ways, well,
Speaker 1: the adult bullies are also really insecure. That's what a
Speaker 1: mean person is, right, But what ages this normally start
Speaker 1: for somebody. I Am not going to call someone out
Speaker 1: as a narcissist until they're really in their early twenties.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Our personalities keep developing through
Speaker 1: childhood and adolescence, and so some of what looks like
Speaker 1: sort of useful stupidity could easily be labeled narcissism in
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old. I tell those barons, wait and see.
Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes when we replay it, we can see, yeah,
Speaker 1: this was not a very nice person all along, but
Speaker 1: you still have some chances to make some shifts in
Speaker 1: their teens by the time they're in their twenty, like
Speaker 1: around the jello mold is set, like they much you're
Speaker 1: gonna do around narcissism because you also hear that it's
Speaker 1: like kind of being overused now or somebody would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's such an narcissist, or he's a narcissistic like with
Speaker 1: no real backing. So what's the like the pivotal thing
Speaker 1: that you know this is an narcisist. The pivotal thing
Speaker 1: is the absolute lack of regard for other people, and
Speaker 1: that comes out in these different ways, like I'm not
Speaker 1: waiting in this line, why should have to wait in
Speaker 1: this line? I'm me? You know, It's like that is,
Speaker 1: in fact, lack of empathy. It's not just someone who's
Speaker 1: a jerkin entitled. They do not care that the other
Speaker 1: people have to wait an extra hour, but they to
Speaker 1: jump to the head of the line. But yet they're
Speaker 1: so charming. They are charming and charming, charismatic confident. I
Speaker 1: always tell people, if you meet someone charismatic, runaway, run away,
Speaker 1: and that's called the golden period. Well, the golden period
Speaker 1: is a period we often also called love bombing, at
Speaker 1: last anywhere from three weeks to three months. And in
Speaker 1: the love bombing sort of golden hour of a narcissistic relationship,
Speaker 1: as it were, you are the center of their universe.
Speaker 1: In essence, you're like a butterfly and they're trying to
Speaker 1: trap you under glass and once they've got you there,
Speaker 1: they're just gonna put you up on the shelf and
Speaker 1: forget about you with the rest of the butterflies. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So then in that what are like early signs or
Speaker 1: red flags you can have if you're starting to get
Speaker 1: into a relationship with a narcissisms They don't listen and
Speaker 1: they turn around and said, oh, I'm sorry, I have
Speaker 1: trouble listening cause I have a d h D. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you didn't have a d h D and I listened
Speaker 1: to you talk for an hour and a half about
Speaker 1: your crazy stuff. You know. So they don't listen, they
Speaker 1: don't pay attention. There overfocused on their devices instead of
Speaker 1: other people. They do expect to be going to the
Speaker 1: head of the line. They don't like to wait, they
Speaker 1: don't tolerate stress well, and most of us will make
Speaker 1: excuses for them. They're under a lot of pressure at work,
Speaker 1: their mom is sick. Those things happen, and we may
Speaker 1: not be graceful, but most of us catch ourselves and say,
Speaker 1: you know what, I am so sorry. I was rude
Speaker 1: with you. My mom is sick. Da da da da
Speaker 1: da versus. Everything is an excuse for them. They literally
Speaker 1: weaponize everything going on around them into an excuse to
Speaker 1: get away with what they want. And that comes while
Speaker 1: also making the other person feel bad. And it's exactly
Speaker 1: and then, but how are they able to cover it up? Oh?
Speaker 1: So well, first of all, let's go back to charm
Speaker 1: and charisma, which is the stinkiest perfume in the world.
Speaker 1: It covers up everything, so people often excuse them. They're
Speaker 1: also quite successful. Narcissists make higher salaries than everybody else,
Speaker 1: so they'll often pick up the check and they'll show
Speaker 1: you a good time, so people will make excuses saying, well, gosh,
Speaker 1: we're having such a good time and they did remember this,
Speaker 1: and they did do this. You get taken in by
Speaker 1: the charm, and the rest of us who are healthy
Speaker 1: give people second chances, and we make excuses for people
Speaker 1: were really good at that. How longer to take you
Speaker 1: until you? Oh, I didn't know for years. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's what I see in my clients is years
Speaker 1: and I feel like the charm everybody sees the charming
Speaker 1: side of them, but only a few select people see
Speaker 1: that other side, the narcissistic side of this, like never apologizing.
Speaker 1: Everything is always your fault, and so people don't realize,
Speaker 1: and so you're kind of left alone wondering, Okay, well
Speaker 1: it's me. It must be me. I must be too sensitive,
Speaker 1: and that's you gas lighting yourself. Gaslighting. There's a new
Speaker 1: term I just recently learned. Can you explain gaslighting to everybody?
Speaker 1: So gas lighting is when somebody questions your reality, questions
Speaker 1: your emotions to the point where that person feels confused.
Speaker 1: So when somebody called her out and said you're too sensitive?
Speaker 1: Who was someone to say you're too sensitive? That is
Speaker 1: ass lighting. That's a that's manipulating her reality. She had
Speaker 1: a feeling about something, and somebody in essence was saying
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have had that feeling, you shouldn't feel anything
Speaker 1: about this. Somebody's saying you're being too angry or that
Speaker 1: never happened. Those are all examples of gaslight. And after
Speaker 1: repeated years of this, you really just believe it. I'm
Speaker 1: not kidding you. I've seen people who have lived through
Speaker 1: twenty and thirty years of gas lighting, and at the
Speaker 1: end of this they look like they have post traumatic
Speaker 1: stress disorder. Somebody messaged me about that, like, I was
Speaker 1: with my husband for thirty years and I I need,
Speaker 1: I need to know what to even do because at
Speaker 1: this point out even know how to live my life anymore.
Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Do narcissists tend to always
Speaker 1: end up with a codependent or does somebody become codependent
Speaker 1: after being with an artist? I don't think they always do.
Speaker 1: I think a person who's quote unquote code dependent made
Speaker 1: me more vulnerable to the narcissist tricks, meaning that they
Speaker 1: may be more likely to go along for the ride,
Speaker 1: less likely to call them out, and more likely to
Speaker 1: do more and more and more to please the narcissist.
Speaker 1: But narcissists sometimes end up with other narcissists. Narcissists sometimes
Speaker 1: end up with healthy people who come from happy families,
Speaker 1: and that person from a happy family says, well, love
Speaker 1: takes care of everything, and if I just love them enough,
Speaker 1: this will all be okay. I don't know that that's codependent.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we want to be careful labeling
Speaker 1: the other person in a narcissistic relationship, thinking there must
Speaker 1: be something wrong with them for putting up with it.
Speaker 1: We are sold a bill of goods in our society
Speaker 1: that somebody that charming, that charismatic, and that's successful can't
Speaker 1: be a bad person. How do you know if you're
Speaker 1: codependent or not? I think that when you when other
Speaker 1: people start pointing the pattern out to you and you
Speaker 1: still say no, no, no no, it's okay, it's okay. You
Speaker 1: start the more you're making your cheating on you and no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're you're misreading that, or you know they're they're just friends, okay.
Speaker 1: And what do you think in your relationship your dynamic was?
Speaker 1: I felt that it was There was always an explanation
Speaker 1: if I felt something was off. Can you give me
Speaker 1: an example, UM, if I was to find or if
Speaker 1: I was to see, you know, some somebody texting him
Speaker 1: on his phone and it was you know, he was
Speaker 1: on his phone a lot, and I would ask, you know,
Speaker 1: who are you texting? And he would automatically have this
Speaker 1: response of a name, and I'm like, why, why? Why
Speaker 1: is she texting you, And he always was so quick
Speaker 1: to have this explanation of why this person needed to
Speaker 1: be talking to him at that very moment, and I
Speaker 1: would just be like, oh, yeah, of course, because I
Speaker 1: just I completely trusted everything that was said, and so
Speaker 1: like little things like that that you wouldn't think we're
Speaker 1: too big of a deal. They just added more and
Speaker 1: more and more and more. Would he also say things like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is your issue if you don't trust me,
Speaker 1: why are you asking why I'm texting you? You know?
Speaker 1: And you were the one you're you feel like you're right.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're the one who's
Speaker 1: always apologizing for everything, even though you know in your
Speaker 1: heart that you didn't do anything wrong. But yet you're
Speaker 1: the one constantly apologizing. And if somebody else was to
Speaker 1: notice something, like some of my family was to say
Speaker 1: something about him like legs they saw, I would then
Speaker 1: get mad at the family, yes, and hide it from him.
Speaker 1: So that so then this brings me my next question.
Speaker 1: Are all narcissist cheaters? No, but a lot are a lot,
Speaker 1: So keep in mind people cheating relationships for a range
Speaker 1: of reasons. Some narcissists interestingly are They love playing the
Speaker 1: hyper moral, hyper loyal card, Like they go the other
Speaker 1: extreme and if they hear of even the tiniest transgression,
Speaker 1: they become like completely judgmental and cruel. So they tend
Speaker 1: to take extremes. But what a narcissist does is they
Speaker 1: choose whatever path is going to validate them and feed
Speaker 1: their ego. So for you can see how cheating would work, Right,
Speaker 1: somebody pays attention to you, You're getting new narcissistic supply.
Speaker 1: Isn't this great? You think you can get away with
Speaker 1: it because they're entitled. They almost feel like they have
Speaker 1: the right to have an inappropriate relationship with anybody they want, Like,
Speaker 1: who's going to stop me? I deserve this because I'm me.
Speaker 1: The relationships that they have with other people, and is
Speaker 1: it always just to benefit themselves, Like they're always looking
Speaker 1: to use the other person for something. They're always looking
Speaker 1: to either feed their ego or protect their ego. Right,
Speaker 1: so you know it's sort of using the example we're
Speaker 1: having of cheating. And sometimes it's not even like they're
Speaker 1: having sex, right, it's those inappropriate text messages and inappropriate
Speaker 1: times that they get together. It's a poor boundaries they're
Speaker 1: really bad at boundaries, because when your boundaries are tight,
Speaker 1: you're not turning to someone for all this validation. You're like, let's,
Speaker 1: you know, let's just stop there. So it's a it's
Speaker 1: always but yes, by and large, their relationships with other
Speaker 1: people serve almost solely to suit their needs. And I
Speaker 1: hate to say this is even happens when they are parents.
Speaker 1: People like what they're a parent. I'm like, yeah, and
Speaker 1: watch this one go down, because that kid becomes their
Speaker 1: source of narcissistic supply. Look at my kid, he plays soccer.
Speaker 1: Look at my daughter, she does ballet, you know, and
Speaker 1: god forbid if that kid doesn't perform. Oh no, they
Speaker 1: may reject them, they may escape go with them. They
Speaker 1: most often it's not even that sinistry. They just kind
Speaker 1: of ignore them. They get bored. They're really cute when
Speaker 1: they're tiny. Around six or seven, they start feeling like
Speaker 1: a nuisance. And then what does that do to your fild.
Speaker 1: You've got one or three paths you take if you've
Speaker 1: had a narcissistic parent. I really see it come down
Speaker 1: to three paths. Path number one, the kid becomes really
Speaker 1: anxious as an adult. Path number two, the kid becomes
Speaker 1: a narcissist as an adult. Path number three, we see
Speaker 1: people who go on to have disorders of what we
Speaker 1: call regulations substance use, eating disorders, problems with spending, problems
Speaker 1: with managing their emotions, lashing out, managing any strong emotions.
Speaker 1: Pick one, Pick one of those three paths, and sometimes
Speaker 1: a person can have more than one more often than not.
Speaker 1: What I've seen in my work is people who have
Speaker 1: a narcissistic parent become incredibly anxious, and they become anxious
Speaker 1: and self doubting and constantly seeking reassurance as adults. This
Speaker 1: is great, This is like group therapy during my lunch show.
Speaker 1: Really enjoy thanks so and and and saying that when
Speaker 1: you're dealing, let's say, with a narcissistic parent or husband
Speaker 1: or wife or whomever it is, they don't know they're
Speaker 1: a narcissist, do they really not know? They really don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it's imagine if you had
Speaker 1: a broken arm, you would do everything you could to
Speaker 1: protect that bone, you get a cast on it. That's
Speaker 1: how they are with their egos. But they're not as
Speaker 1: aware that everything they're doing is to protect this fragile core.
Speaker 1: So they don't have that much insight into what they're
Speaker 1: doing to other people because they don't pay attention to
Speaker 1: other people. Other people only serve the purpose of helping them.
Speaker 1: This water bottle only serves a function of giving me water.
Speaker 1: Once the waters out of it, I'm gonna throw it out.
Speaker 1: That's what they do with people. But then I also
Speaker 1: read that. I also read that um narcissists if they
Speaker 1: if they have a wife or somebody that leaves them,
Speaker 1: then they're even worse to their next person. Well, you
Speaker 1: know that's people ask me, because I'd say about a
Speaker 1: third of my practice is narcissistic clients. Believe it or not,
Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, it's can be gnarly, but I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, well, then why the heck did they come
Speaker 1: in if they don't have insight? Because something goes wrong
Speaker 1: in their life. Someone files a lawsuit, they lose a job,
Speaker 1: their their spouse or partner leaves them, their kid no
Speaker 1: longer speaks to them. Something goes wrong and they're not
Speaker 1: They're confused as to why this happens, and then they
Speaker 1: come in. I'm like, what are exactly are you confused about?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be speaking to you either, you know, so
Speaker 1: they don't get it. They it's almost like they forget,
Speaker 1: they forget the harm. It's like every conversation with them
Speaker 1: is like groundhog Day, like we just went through this
Speaker 1: because to them, an apology is permission. They're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I said sorry, so now I can go do it again,
Speaker 1: and you've forgiven them, so like this is great. I
Speaker 1: can keep making this mistake and this fool is going
Speaker 1: to keep coming back around. So they just don't get it.
Speaker 1: They don't see it. And I'll be honest with you,
Speaker 1: the biggest mistake you could ever make is calling a
Speaker 1: narcissist out because that's your that's your a sus bades
Speaker 1: right there. You do not want them to know, you know,
Speaker 1: because once you do that, they are going to take
Speaker 1: the gloves off. Did you do that? And what happened? Well?
Speaker 1: I really struggled with after everything happened, I felt, what's
Speaker 1: everything happened? Sorry? We dated and once I like confronted
Speaker 1: him about a whole bunch of things and you know,
Speaker 1: basically figured out the type of person that he was,
Speaker 1: I left feeling incredibly weak and I felt like, how
Speaker 1: could I have let this happen? How could I have
Speaker 1: fallen for this when in fact, like three years and
Speaker 1: years of therapy and you know, working through this, you
Speaker 1: can't really you can't blame yourself because you never know
Speaker 1: who this person is going to go after. And so
Speaker 1: that was a real struggle for me, was feeling like
Speaker 1: it was my fault. How could I have let how
Speaker 1: could I have fallen for this guy? But I'm going
Speaker 1: to stay with him for so long? After being with
Speaker 1: the narcissist so long, it did such a number on you.
Speaker 1: You got so masterful at blaming yourself for everything. You
Speaker 1: even blame yourself for even getting in it and staying
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, and I still do, and even like
Speaker 1: in future relationships, thinking like, oh, well, nope, he's too confident. Nope,
Speaker 1: you can't go there. And so I find myself, you know,
Speaker 1: noticing teeny tiny little things and people when it's definitely
Speaker 1: affected me for future relationships for sure, it definitely leaves
Speaker 1: a long echo. And then when you see somebody so
Speaker 1: like one of my best friends her husband now about
Speaker 1: to be ex husband for sure, Like from the moment
Speaker 1: I met him, I was like, this seems like a
Speaker 1: narcissist to me. But I've also seen him, you know,
Speaker 1: get caught for cheating. Are these different things have happened
Speaker 1: and I've seen him like break down to her like
Speaker 1: I am so sorry, you are everything to me and
Speaker 1: do this whole big show. Is that all just a show?
Speaker 1: Or is there any feeling of remorse? Earth they're just
Speaker 1: feeling of getting caught or do they even care that
Speaker 1: they got caught? It's a show with a function. So
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is they narcissist is not
Speaker 1: a psychopath. There's a difference than contessa. You also tell
Speaker 1: me the difference between narcissist. All right, I will tell
Speaker 1: you the difference that I'm gonna go back to your question.
Speaker 1: So narcissist, psychopath, sociopath alright, a little bit different? All three? Okay.
Speaker 1: A narcissist actually does feel remorse, and they particularly feel remorse,
Speaker 1: like they know they can look at someone's face and say, well,
Speaker 1: that wasn't a good thing to do, like a little kid.
Speaker 1: Like they can see when they break something that their
Speaker 1: mom's upset. They're like, oh, I shouldn't have picked up
Speaker 1: that glass. She told me not to. Psychopath does not
Speaker 1: feel that they will they'll shoot you point blank and
Speaker 1: go eat lunch like that. That's and the narcissists won't
Speaker 1: do that. Oh my god, we're gonna do with the body.
Speaker 1: I don't know, they'll get really worked up. Okay, so
Speaker 1: when they throw you know, please don't leave me, DADAA.
Speaker 1: A lot of that's driven by shame. They the narcissist
Speaker 1: knows they are going to get publicly called out. I
Speaker 1: think that narcissist was originally like neglected or you know,
Speaker 1: there's different ways a person because gets to be narcissistic.
Speaker 1: We do know it starts early in life. It's believed
Speaker 1: that people are narcissistic didn't have the opportunity to create
Speaker 1: a really secure attachment to a caregiver like a mom
Speaker 1: or a dad. Sometimes they're raised by narcissist, Like I said,
Speaker 1: times they're raised in homes where the parents are just
Speaker 1: not a tune. That a parent might be struggling with addiction,
Speaker 1: a parent may be struggling with anything. The household is
Speaker 1: characterized by chaos for some reason. When you have a
Speaker 1: really really sort of mean, authoritarian parent, which many people
Speaker 1: did in their dads for generations, that that can breed narcissism.
Speaker 1: But then when you add to that a child who
Speaker 1: may be spoiled, like in terms of material stuff, you
Speaker 1: can have anything you want. Here's a phone, here, here's
Speaker 1: a car, here's this, here's that. But they never get
Speaker 1: their emotional needs met. So when that child has real emotion,
Speaker 1: they're really sad, they're really confused. There's no adults anywhere
Speaker 1: to be found. You need a new phone, They're right there.
Speaker 1: You want to go on a fancy vacation and post
Speaker 1: pictures to Instagram, Mom and dad are on it. But
Speaker 1: when there's a real emotional need, these they are completely malnourished.
Speaker 1: So by the time they get into adulthood, they learned
Speaker 1: that superficial, vain things will feed that emptiness that lives
Speaker 1: inside of them. They don't know how to regulate, and
Speaker 1: they never learned how to have empathy for other people.
Speaker 1: You don't teach your kid empathy by the age of
Speaker 1: seven or eight, you're screwed. And then I have a question,
Speaker 1: So I understand if you have a you know, a
Speaker 1: husband or a wife or a boyfriend and girlfriend that's
Speaker 1: a narcissist, and you finally figure out a way to
Speaker 1: get away and do treatment on yourself to try to
Speaker 1: get over the pain of like the PTSD. But what
Speaker 1: if it is apparent. If it's apparent, I mean, in fact,
Speaker 1: that's something I take on quite a bit in this
Speaker 1: new book. If it is apparent, you can't You may
Speaker 1: not be able to divorce your parents. And the hard
Speaker 1: thing is them being narcissistic left real echoes in your
Speaker 1: own life, which is hard to even reflect on how
Speaker 1: this affected you. But you can set boundaries, and I
Speaker 1: have worked with many clients on many different ways. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people set a time or they their parents are too
Speaker 1: old to know that that's not the phone ringing that
Speaker 1: that's the time or going off, and they said it
Speaker 1: for an hour, an hour and a half, the thing
Speaker 1: goes off, like you know what, I got it, This
Speaker 1: is an important call, and they get out. They come
Speaker 1: up with a list of topics that are not controversial.
Speaker 1: How's the weather? Did you see they're making a new
Speaker 1: grocery store? Can you believe the neighbors painted their mailbox red? Like?
Speaker 1: Really keeping it neutral? The parents, the narcissist gets frustrated
Speaker 1: when you change your game like that. Because narcissistic parents
Speaker 1: can often be jel lists of their adult kids. They
Speaker 1: can covet their lives. The narcissistic parents will often play
Speaker 1: the victim, so if you take away their ability to
Speaker 1: do that anymore, they'll often feel like, oh, here you
Speaker 1: are trying. In fact, I've had numerous clients tell me, oh,
Speaker 1: what's your shrink teacher to talk to me like this?
Speaker 1: You know, so they really are like they notice the
Speaker 1: change in the temperature. Because a narcissist does well when
Speaker 1: there's a fight going on, so they're often gunning for
Speaker 1: a fight, right. They come back always too. You can
Speaker 1: have the worst fights with them that you're like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is gnarly, and they are back the next day
Speaker 1: like it didn't happen, and that's that that's happen. And
Speaker 1: if you want to talk about it again, they don't
Speaker 1: want to. And it's almost like they don't even remember
Speaker 1: it happened. But they'll remember it if it's convenient to
Speaker 1: remember one mean thing you said in the conversation. They've
Speaker 1: got this amazing evolved in their brain. So and then
Speaker 1: they also kind of know what your weaknesses are, right,
Speaker 1: and then they'll just tummel them and tell because I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the thing about they are able to pay a tension,
Speaker 1: you know, if they're able to pay close enough attention
Speaker 1: to mine out your weaknesses to use them against you.
Speaker 1: They're able to. They're just only paying attention for their
Speaker 1: own benefit. But so I tell you know, many people say,
Speaker 1: my mom's and narcissist, my dad's a narcissist. But I
Speaker 1: really adore my siblings and I want to go to
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, And so I say, I set them ground
Speaker 1: rules on like just stick to the neutral topics on
Speaker 1: the list, set boundaries, give yourself breaks, don't stay in
Speaker 1: the house with them, like you know things you can do,
Speaker 1: so you don't. You know, it's still probably gonna get
Speaker 1: to an argument, but this time you'll understand the why
Speaker 1: instead of feeling like, why doesn't my mom or dad
Speaker 1: love me? You know what's sadly, it's sort of like
Speaker 1: this more empty, superficial version of love. Teach yourself, this
Speaker 1: isn't about you. Maybe they sort of quote unquote did
Speaker 1: the best they could, but don't personalize that this was
Speaker 1: them not being a fit parent. It's not about you
Speaker 1: not being a fit child. All right, guys, we've got
Speaker 1: to take a break. But I want to dig into
Speaker 1: like what drives people to be, Like we're attracted to
Speaker 1: the narcissist. Okay, so we're back with Dr Romani and
Speaker 1: also Jil and we're on the topic of narcissism and
Speaker 1: coming back what drives somebody to almost always go to
Speaker 1: a narcissist. You know a lot of people will say
Speaker 1: when they meet a narcissist, they feel so much chemistry,
Speaker 1: we have a magical connection. I've never felt like this
Speaker 1: again went before. When I hear that, I tell my client,
Speaker 1: a right, let's put the brakes on this real fast,
Speaker 1: because that's often a sign that the thing that's being
Speaker 1: activated is an ancient script, some kind of early form
Speaker 1: of invalidation you experience that you're trying to work through.
Speaker 1: And in fact, a brilliant woman I know Dr Pamela
Speaker 1: Rigan I work with, who's a relationship researcher. You know,
Speaker 1: she said that what people call chemistry is actually that
Speaker 1: ancient familiarity of the past, and you just keep playing
Speaker 1: out that dysfunctional story over and over again instead of saying, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is a functional love story, like this is a
Speaker 1: magical love story. Why because it's almost nostalgic, it's so ancient,
Speaker 1: like you're chasing the higher, you're chasing the old story
Speaker 1: like this time, I'll get dad to love me, you know,
Speaker 1: and you keep finding lots of rejecting partners and you
Speaker 1: this time, this time, I'm going to get it right.
Speaker 1: Instead of realizing like that was Dad's story, You're you're
Speaker 1: all good. You're confusing too, because they do love you
Speaker 1: at first, they show that, but they're What it is
Speaker 1: is it's it's it's much like a baby likes to
Speaker 1: be swaddled and picked up. It's an overwhelming experience so
Speaker 1: that if anyone else comes along and it's almost like
Speaker 1: a soft pedal dating experience and it's not so connecting
Speaker 1: people like, well this isn't exciting. I think it's probably healthy.
Speaker 1: And I have a question if that is you, for
Speaker 1: like my listeners, how do you start to equip yourself
Speaker 1: to not make those same mistakes starting I don't know
Speaker 1: if you call them mistakes, but they're not mistakes that
Speaker 1: you know what it is. Become aware of your backstory
Speaker 1: because a lot of people almost want to maintain a
Speaker 1: fairy tale of their family of origin, like we were
Speaker 1: a great family and everything's great and like yeah, everyone
Speaker 1: kind of got it, or they paint this picture and
Speaker 1: they don't really look into what did that do to
Speaker 1: them as a kid, how often they were trying to
Speaker 1: win their parents over. You've got to know where where
Speaker 1: the minds are buried so you don't step on them.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to know what it is about
Speaker 1: your backstory that makes you vulnerable. Number one. Number two
Speaker 1: listening to something like this, reading about this, knowing that
Speaker 1: this pattern is toxic, and no, you are not going
Speaker 1: to be the one to magically turn the frog into
Speaker 1: a prince. It doesn't work that way for the people
Speaker 1: listening that, like, can't afford to go to therapy or
Speaker 1: do those types of things. Are there certain books or
Speaker 1: anything that you recommend While I'm going to be a narcissist,
Speaker 1: I'm going to mention my own I actually do think
Speaker 1: my I've been I've been a professor for years, so
Speaker 1: actually right, I know my students don't love to read,
Speaker 1: so I try to write in a way like if
Speaker 1: I can get them to read, I get anyone to read.
Speaker 1: So I have two books on this, one called Should
Speaker 1: I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with
Speaker 1: the Narcissist, And the other book is called Don't You
Speaker 1: Know Who I Am? How to Stay? Saying in an
Speaker 1: era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. Between those two books,
Speaker 1: you'll understand not only intimate relationship, but also all of
Speaker 1: the other kinds of relationships and why this is becoming
Speaker 1: more and more common in our world. Than what to
Speaker 1: do about it. There's also tons of other good books.
Speaker 1: If you put narcissism into Amazon, it's like it's a tsunami.
Speaker 1: There's also really great podcast There's shows like this one
Speaker 1: you're doing today. I have a YouTube channel um on
Speaker 1: exactly on this and we have tons of content. So
Speaker 1: the content is out there, and it's amazing how many
Speaker 1: people are self educating on this topic. And may I
Speaker 1: ask you a personal question? I don't know if I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask that. Do you have personal experience studying? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to know about drugs, talk about and talk
Speaker 1: to an old drugging, you know, and if you want
Speaker 1: to don't want to know about narcissism. Absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 1: and this has happened to me in professional spheres and
Speaker 1: family spheres and professional spheres, and I began to really
Speaker 1: doubt myself. I'm like, wow, maybe this is because I'm
Speaker 1: this And I thought, no, there's some and then I
Speaker 1: got into doing it in my research. I actually my
Speaker 1: university based research got to be about this particular topic.
Speaker 1: And then all the pieces came sort of sliding in together,
Speaker 1: and it was like now I see it more and
Speaker 1: more and more of my clients here in l A
Speaker 1: kept coming in and telling me the same story about
Speaker 1: their marriages something, and I kept writing them emails like, okay,
Speaker 1: just a review what we did. And I said, I
Speaker 1: keep writing the same email over and over again. I
Speaker 1: might as well write a book. That's where that second
Speaker 1: book came from. So on that same token, Like a
Speaker 1: lot of people. I did something on my answer story
Speaker 1: that said, just like, ask me your questions on narcissism,
Speaker 1: and I had hundreds of people right in, I'm married
Speaker 1: to a narcissist. Yes, so many people. What do I do?
Speaker 1: But like, really, what do you do? You have a
Speaker 1: family together, you love the person you have. I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of them are saying, we have really good
Speaker 1: times together and then there's really dark times. But what
Speaker 1: do you do? Is there any hope of a happy life?
Speaker 1: Canna narcissism a narcissist? Be happy? The best thing I
Speaker 1: can tell them this is going to sound like the
Speaker 1: most awful thing to hear is you've got to keep
Speaker 1: your expectations realistic. When you're having a good day, ride
Speaker 1: that wave out and then know that there's probably going
Speaker 1: to be a series of rainy days. You know that
Speaker 1: your trust may get broken. Um, but the expectations need
Speaker 1: to be realistic. I think a lot of times people
Speaker 1: want an explanation, why are you like this? You're never
Speaker 1: going to get that explanation. You're never going to get it.
Speaker 1: They don't get it themselves, and so there's a lot
Speaker 1: of frustration. But I think the biggest issue becomes from
Speaker 1: the fact that they believe they can change this person.
Speaker 1: If I lose weight, if I if I'm nicer, if
Speaker 1: I keep the house cleaner, if I get more money,
Speaker 1: if I don't work, if I raise the kids better,
Speaker 1: if we can I mean, I've heard every possible trick.
Speaker 1: People have tried to say, maybe if I do this,
Speaker 1: then no, they're never going to change. In fact, the
Speaker 1: person doing all this stuff is changing. But the narcissis.
Speaker 1: Narcissism actually is like it's like the weather in California,
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of always the same. It's just very
Speaker 1: steady and it and it's It's unchangeability in some ways
Speaker 1: makes it manageable because, you know, how do you start
Speaker 1: disarming a narcissist. You don't fall for their tricks and traps.
Speaker 1: You need to be comfortable with your own reality. The
Speaker 1: only way someone can gaslight you is because you are
Speaker 1: willing to doubt your own reality. No. Yeah, and if
Speaker 1: somebody tells me this guy is purple, I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm doubling down on the fact that the sky is blue.
Speaker 1: And if you have a problem with that, I'm not weird. Good.
Speaker 1: How do they react to that? When you sort of
Speaker 1: stand up for yourself more, um, sometimes they get scared.
Speaker 1: They're almost like the wicked witch, you know, like they're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, and they will, especially if you do it
Speaker 1: early in the game. You had even said, like, you know,
Speaker 1: we had talked earlier, what would attracts the person. One
Speaker 1: thing they don't like at first, they'll say, oh, you're
Speaker 1: being a little playful. They're going to keep trying to
Speaker 1: seek out your vulnerabilities. If you don't know that you're
Speaker 1: going into Mortal Kombat, you're not going to be ready
Speaker 1: for this. But if you know what you're doing, it's
Speaker 1: actually very interesting to spar with them. But the key
Speaker 1: piece is to not feed the beast. You don't you
Speaker 1: don't validate them, you don't give them anything, and then
Speaker 1: they're going to get bored of you, right, you know,
Speaker 1: they're just gonna move on to the next person. I'm
Speaker 1: not getting anything here. You're not telling me I'm great,
Speaker 1: you're not making things happen for me, you're not getting
Speaker 1: me Lakers tickets, like, there's nothing happening in this relationship.
Speaker 1: So I'm out. And but once you're in it for
Speaker 1: a long time, they know they can get things from you,
Speaker 1: so it really really gets hard. And I'll be honest
Speaker 1: with you. Some people stay married to narcissists not because
Speaker 1: they love them, but because they don't want to co
Speaker 1: parent with them and they don't want to share custody.
Speaker 1: They don't want the kids to be alone with the
Speaker 1: narcissistic parents just because they feel like the parent is
Speaker 1: just not a good parent. And if they are alone
Speaker 1: with their kids, what are some things that are going
Speaker 1: to happen. They get bored with them, they get irritated
Speaker 1: with them, They may say bad things about the other parents,
Speaker 1: you know, like whereas in any divorce, no matter how
Speaker 1: much you may dislike your ex, your responsibility to your
Speaker 1: parents is to protect the parents. And you know, the
Speaker 1: the child's eyes of the parent in essence like their
Speaker 1: view of the parent, and narcissistic parents will have no
Speaker 1: problem completely doing a number on the other parent trying
Speaker 1: to win them over. So normal to be a little
Speaker 1: bit afraid of the narcissist, like I have a lot
Speaker 1: of fear, or like I always feel like I'm walking
Speaker 1: on eggshells. Well, the walking the eggshells piece absolutely, because
Speaker 1: you never know what's going to set them off because
Speaker 1: they're so insecure, they're very hyper sensitive. So like the
Speaker 1: hiniest little thing like oh, that's interesting, I love that tie.
Speaker 1: You wore it till last week's dinner. What do you mean?
Speaker 1: What do you trying? What do you try to say?
Speaker 1: I only have one tie, Like, you know what, I
Speaker 1: have a thousand ties? You know what talent this? I'm
Speaker 1: not going on this dinner, you know, I'm like I
Speaker 1: just said you. But they do sort of do that
Speaker 1: thing too, where they're like, I'm done talking, I'm done talking.
Speaker 1: It's called stonewalling, and that's actually one of the signs
Speaker 1: that a relationship is kind of coming to an end. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you're in that place where you are being
Speaker 1: stone walled, you have kids, you're afraid to co parent,
Speaker 1: what do you do? You get therapy, you join support groups.
Speaker 1: You realize that kids do move out of the house,
Speaker 1: hopefully in most cases when they're eighteen. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: a long ride. I've watched parents white knuckle this stuff
Speaker 1: for sixteen years, Like I'm not going to sugarcoat this
Speaker 1: and say some magical anti narcissist fairy is going to
Speaker 1: come fluttering down and make it all better. You signed
Speaker 1: up for something rough. My My goal in my work
Speaker 1: is to prevent people from getting into marriages like this
Speaker 1: in the first place, to understand what they're are dealing with.
Speaker 1: But in fact, people there was a research study done
Speaker 1: and people who are dating are more likely to rate
Speaker 1: a narcissist as a better marriage partner than somebody who's not.
Speaker 1: Why because the narcissists looks so much better on paper,
Speaker 1: and I like, you feel amazing sometimes sometimes and it's
Speaker 1: the sometimes it makes it like an addiction. You're chasing
Speaker 1: the high, like I want to feel like I felt
Speaker 1: like last Saturday, you know, so instead of somebody who
Speaker 1: makes you feel good all the time, and somebody's are
Speaker 1: like every day it's good, So it's not interesting. But
Speaker 1: when you have those ups and downs, it's addiction. So
Speaker 1: if if you're listening to if somebody's listening to this
Speaker 1: right now and they're thinking, could I potentially be a narcissist?
Speaker 1: How do you self evaluate in any way? You know
Speaker 1: what I say, First of all, bravo to you for
Speaker 1: even considering it. And I've had many clients come to
Speaker 1: me and say, you know what, I'm not nice to
Speaker 1: other people. I was raised by these people who told me, like,
Speaker 1: you know, other people's feelings are b s, don't concern
Speaker 1: yourself with them, all that sort of thing, and so
Speaker 1: they really minimize That's how they were raised. Now they're
Speaker 1: adults and realizing they can't get into a healthy relationship
Speaker 1: and they feel like their lives are really impoverished as
Speaker 1: a result. It's a slow burn with them. I mean,
Speaker 1: we can only get so far. This is like somebody
Speaker 1: who's never used their legs and we're trying to get
Speaker 1: them to use their legs for the first time. It's
Speaker 1: it's tough. And so when people start realizing they may
Speaker 1: be the first thing I tell them is it's like
Speaker 1: training for a marathon. You've got to be on it
Speaker 1: all the time. You have to you have to pay
Speaker 1: attention to other people's feelings, and it's going to feel
Speaker 1: weird for you have to be mindful all the time,
Speaker 1: like you have to stop, you have to listen, you
Speaker 1: have to reflect back, you have to think about what
Speaker 1: they're feeling. And many people are saying, are you serious?
Speaker 1: I need to do all of this, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's called a relationship. And so you're teaching them what
Speaker 1: they should have been taught when they were small children.
Speaker 1: It's very, very slow, because I feel like I've had
Speaker 1: conversations with narcissists before where they'll ask all the right questions,
Speaker 1: but you can tell by how they respond they most
Speaker 1: likely weren't even listened. Probably not. Probably it's hard for them,
Speaker 1: like they're just going through the motions of asking you
Speaker 1: what they think you want to be asked. And so
Speaker 1: the question is it'body going to be content being with
Speaker 1: someone who's just going through the motions. That's a very
Speaker 1: personal question. Some people might say, listen, if if I
Speaker 1: can manage going through the motions for twelve more years.
Speaker 1: When the kids are gone, I'm out, you know. And
Speaker 1: that's again, I think everyone makes very sometimes on the
Speaker 1: basis of culture finances. Nobody gets to judge. But what
Speaker 1: my goal is is to try to give people tools
Speaker 1: so they can make this so it's as healthy and
Speaker 1: is at least not getting as invalidated all the time
Speaker 1: as they are currently by staying in these relationships. People
Speaker 1: like I have this experience where I think they're a narcissist,
Speaker 1: and I know enough about narcissists to know how bad
Speaker 1: that is, and uh, oh, you need to like prove it,
Speaker 1: like yes, yes, Amy, you nailed it. You know what
Speaker 1: you said, something that I've seen so many people do.
Speaker 1: They're like, I gotta get enough data, enough evidence, so
Speaker 1: I'm convinced. But in the process of getting that data
Speaker 1: and that evidence, they break their own hearts over and
Speaker 1: over again, and to say, why can't it's almost again
Speaker 1: it's gaslighting yourself. Why couldn't you trust yourself the first
Speaker 1: time when you were invalidated? Nobody deserves that, but you
Speaker 1: kind of crave that, like almost feeling that you got
Speaker 1: from before, and it's like not feeling worthy, like the
Speaker 1: hope you're wrong, the hope, you're willing, you know that
Speaker 1: you can change them. And these relationships are kept in
Speaker 1: place by two dynamics, hope and fear. Hope it's going
Speaker 1: to get better, and fear What if I leave? What
Speaker 1: if he's not really like this? What if? What if
Speaker 1: there was no one else? Yeah? What if I never
Speaker 1: feel this way again? And you always can? You not
Speaker 1: only can. What is glorious to witness is after people
Speaker 1: have left narcissistic relationships and learn what's really important. The
Speaker 1: love stories. I've seen people walk into their like I
Speaker 1: never would have looked at this person twice And now
Speaker 1: every day I walk through the world feeling important and
Speaker 1: beautiful and loved and I don't doubt myself and I
Speaker 1: never thought it could be this way. It's it's stunning
Speaker 1: to witness. And I mean, this might be an ignorant question,
Speaker 1: but it's narcissism. Is it women or what's the I'm
Speaker 1: spitballing women that's about to start shifting. I hate to
Speaker 1: say I'm glad we fought for some of its social media.
Speaker 1: I think women are are finally and deservedly so fighting
Speaker 1: for their place in the workplace. But sadly the way
Speaker 1: corporate America's run, there is some incentivizing of being a narcissist,
Speaker 1: so in order to climb up in that, women who
Speaker 1: have those qualities sometimes will do better. Girls are affected
Speaker 1: by narcissistic man. I almost have to create that within
Speaker 1: it does it would be kinder. Yeah, they're allowed to be.
Speaker 1: And keep in mind too, it used to be for
Speaker 1: a woman to be narcissistic. It might have been trickier
Speaker 1: because it might have been harder for her to get married,
Speaker 1: which is almost a societal requirement. We don't require that
Speaker 1: of women anymore, you know, So some of those things
Speaker 1: that you might have socialized out of women, And I'll
Speaker 1: be honest with you, narcissism and women can come off
Speaker 1: more as a victimhood, a coldness, a distance, rather than
Speaker 1: that kind of mean spirited combativeness. Tell you more about women,
Speaker 1: How do you know? As a woman, and same way
Speaker 1: as men? I mean, they don't they They are contemptuous
Speaker 1: of other people's feelings. They view other people's feelings as weak.
Speaker 1: They're very competitive, they don't account for other people's feelings.
Speaker 1: They are very entitled. I see it all the time.
Speaker 1: I see women's narcissism. I've been hurt by women's narcissism.
Speaker 1: It's it's equally ugly to men's. There's really no difference.
Speaker 1: Let's say that you you break free from the narcissist,
Speaker 1: and what's the first thing a person should do or
Speaker 1: could do to help yourself feel better. I tell people
Speaker 1: you need a detox speriit. You've just been through something
Speaker 1: that's you know, sort of on the fringes of the
Speaker 1: neighborhood of traumatic and sometimes fully traumatic. You need a
Speaker 1: moment to I always advise some form of support, whether
Speaker 1: that's therapy, whether that's group support, you know, whether that's
Speaker 1: just you just sort of doing the deep dive, and
Speaker 1: don't try not to get right into another relationship because
Speaker 1: it's like that that scar tissue is really raw. And
Speaker 1: then I think it's about for a while, you're going
Speaker 1: to overcorrect and you're going to say no to a
Speaker 1: lot of people like to go but no charming charming
Speaker 1: and that's okay, that's okay. I'd rather a person overcorrect
Speaker 1: than under corrects in many ways. And then you've got
Speaker 1: I tell people, start with building all those relationships you
Speaker 1: ignored all those years, because you've got to remember most
Speaker 1: of us put of our effort into our most toxic
Speaker 1: relationships and only ten into our most healthy, reciprocal giving relationships.
Speaker 1: Why those really healthy relationships are like, we're cool, I
Speaker 1: love you all the time. When you get in touch,
Speaker 1: we're good. But you don't have to constantly feed them.
Speaker 1: Flip that math, go back to those healthy relationships and
Speaker 1: recognize what it feels like to look into a mirror again.
Speaker 1: I think you nailed on something saying reciprocal, because narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationships are not at all, like at all, No, none
Speaker 1: at all. I mean it's like a mirror that doesn't
Speaker 1: look back, which is actually really unsettling, you know when
Speaker 1: you think about they're not reciprocal. And I think that
Speaker 1: people sometimes feel in control early in a narcissistic relationship
Speaker 1: because they're doing all the work there and and then
Speaker 1: the narcissistic partner maybe trying to win them over again
Speaker 1: deals like it's reciprocal, and then it goes it goes away,
Speaker 1: and what do I need to do to get it back?
Speaker 1: How do I get that back? And now you're peddling
Speaker 1: faster and faster, trying to create a time in a
Speaker 1: relationship that's never going to come back again. Ever, we're
Speaker 1: gonna take a little break here and then we're going
Speaker 1: to talk to UM some of our narcissist hold on
Speaker 1: what's the word, like somebody who's survivors of narcissary abuse. UM,
Speaker 1: We're going to take a little break here, and then
Speaker 1: we're gonna come back. I'll ask more questions, but also
Speaker 1: talk to some survivors of narcissists. So now we're back
Speaker 1: and we're talking directly to a friend of mine. I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe my boss a surviving nurse. I think
Speaker 1: I still have doubts. I always doubt, like were they
Speaker 1: I think they were pretty sure when it's like there's
Speaker 1: four thousand signs that they were or are. But you
Speaker 1: know what, it highlights how important it is for us
Speaker 1: to not get so stuck in the label because then
Speaker 1: people are like, well that didn't so maybe they're not.
Speaker 1: I say, pay attention to how someone makes you feel.
Speaker 1: So if you're feeling no respect and they're manipulating you
Speaker 1: and their gaslighting you and they're twisting your truth and
Speaker 1: they're not respecting your feeling, thank you against other people.
Speaker 1: That what you triangle thing is super big. It's very
Speaker 1: big forms where they get their power, and they all
Speaker 1: have triangles, even the sorry, can you explain the triangle
Speaker 1: thing to me? So Dr MNI can probably explained, but
Speaker 1: I would explain it as OK, here's like a loose example.
Speaker 1: There's always a wife or another girlfriend and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: they were being terrible, so I was super excited to
Speaker 1: see you, but now you're being terrible and I can't
Speaker 1: wait to go back to them. Like classical that happened,
Speaker 1: and they likely grew up like that. Triangulation is often
Speaker 1: a dynamic you learn in the family, and then that's
Speaker 1: what they do. They will pit the mistress and the
Speaker 1: wife for the boyfriend and the husband against each other.
Speaker 1: So and remember what's the great about that setup is
Speaker 1: the narcissist has a guaranteed source of narcissistic supply because
Speaker 1: the wife is aggravated, you got the mistress. You mistress aggravated,
Speaker 1: you got the girlfriend, or until we both until you're
Speaker 1: both And that's that's the best day of my year
Speaker 1: when I watch a narcissists were both the wife and
Speaker 1: the mistress walk out the same day, like that's like
Speaker 1: a holiday around my house. So when they're doing that,
Speaker 1: when the narcissist is doing that. Are they just getting
Speaker 1: off on the fact that they can completely control two people.
Speaker 1: It's not a getting off because that makes it sound
Speaker 1: it's almost too conscious. Then it's a it's a need
Speaker 1: getting met. Like they don't love it, but they love it.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like drinking blood. That's what I was like.
Speaker 1: Each person is giving them something that their ego needs
Speaker 1: to feel like because somebody said something to me like, yes,
Speaker 1: I have cheated on my wife before, but the thing
Speaker 1: is I would never cheat on her with somebody that's
Speaker 1: been with a lot of people. It has to only
Speaker 1: be me. I'm like, why would you? Why would you
Speaker 1: believe that they're only with you they're cheating, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: so what is that? So they believe in things that
Speaker 1: again protect them and help them feel good, and that
Speaker 1: that's it's almost they almost are veering into the delusional territory.
Speaker 1: That's how much that their beliefs are so skewed there
Speaker 1: they seem like they're deluded. They're not. Even ironically, they
Speaker 1: question everyone else's reality, but they're not in their own.
Speaker 1: To a narcissist makes them feel good, absolutely absolutely, because
Speaker 1: it gives them. Think about it, when someone makes them
Speaker 1: feel good as long as it's not about them. Even
Speaker 1: if it's about them, it's power. It's power because now
Speaker 1: you've shown me to be weak. I go back to
Speaker 1: Jill's examples, and in some ways it was like she
Speaker 1: was rendered weak in that relationship. Oh do you really
Speaker 1: care who was texting me? God? Are you really that insecure? Now?
Speaker 1: Imagine how much more powerful he was than her at
Speaker 1: that point. And he got me to change my relationships
Speaker 1: with other people. I am so close with my family,
Speaker 1: and when we were together, there would be weekends where
Speaker 1: we wouldn't see each other whatsoever because he didn't want
Speaker 1: me going somewhere or And in my mind I knew
Speaker 1: it was wrong. In my heart, I knew it was wrong.
Speaker 1: But yet hearing him explained that he needed me to
Speaker 1: stay home, I was like, of course, yeah. And then
Speaker 1: weeks and weeks and weeks would go by. I'm not
Speaker 1: seeing my family, I'm not seeing my friends, And it
Speaker 1: just completely changed me as a person. And the one
Speaker 1: thing I will say is when this relationship ended, I
Speaker 1: was just dead inside. I didn't know who I was.
Speaker 1: I wasn't I was not me at all. Um we
Speaker 1: were together, I mean a little over five years off
Speaker 1: and on for even longer. But that five years of
Speaker 1: span of like was a good run. But it was
Speaker 1: just like I wasn't me and it took a really
Speaker 1: long time for me to feel like myself again because
Speaker 1: I felt nothing. Why does she seem so much healthier
Speaker 1: than me? Because it really is time, And that's why
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, even after that, you're saying, how do
Speaker 1: we get past this? How do we detox? You then
Speaker 1: started spending time with those friends and family again, you know,
Speaker 1: like it really is like breathing healthy air again, Like,
Speaker 1: oh now I'm coming back to life. And it takes
Speaker 1: some time of doing that. We're like, no one's going
Speaker 1: to tell me I can't do this and I can't
Speaker 1: do these things that are wonderful for me. Once you
Speaker 1: start feeling like you're in control of your life again,
Speaker 1: that's often times where you start you start to heal
Speaker 1: because you're when you're in a relationship with the narcissists,
Speaker 1: it's very time consuming because you waste a lot of
Speaker 1: time interpreting texts and why didn't he call or she
Speaker 1: called too soon? Well where is this person? Or what's
Speaker 1: going on? And explaining and talking about things till two
Speaker 1: in the morning, and then people going to bed angry,
Speaker 1: and it's a lot of times like a full time
Speaker 1: all being in a relationship with these people always on
Speaker 1: your mind, whereas if you're in a healthy relationship, to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, you don't waste a lot of
Speaker 1: mental real estate on that. Like you love the person
Speaker 1: and you're happy to talk to them, but you're not
Speaker 1: spending your wheels thinking about them all the time in
Speaker 1: this dysfunctional, ruminating kind of a way. And you hear
Speaker 1: relationships are hard, and so you think like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the people are talking about. By the way,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think a shrink must have sold
Speaker 1: that's so we'd get work. But relationship really aren't that
Speaker 1: hard when they were. Sometimes you have to make a
Speaker 1: compromise like Okay, yeah, I'm going to skip to dinner
Speaker 1: tonight because my partner is sick. But that doesn't feel hard.
Speaker 1: That feels like love, and you don't label that it's
Speaker 1: hard when it was, Like, no, it has to feel hard,
Speaker 1: and relationships should feel like mental pilates. You're doing it wrong.
Speaker 1: For somebody that's in the triangle, if they're either the
Speaker 1: wife or the mistress or whomever, or even the narcissist.
Speaker 1: Is there any closure to it? Ever, there is no
Speaker 1: closure with narcissists, and that I think is the hardest
Speaker 1: thing for people to get their head around. I think
Speaker 1: some people will feel like, you know what, I could
Speaker 1: heal from this if this person would just finally take ownership,
Speaker 1: explain to me what happened, and I can let it go.
Speaker 1: It won't happen because they don't get it, They don't understand,
Speaker 1: and nor do they care what they did to you
Speaker 1: and you. Trying to force them to think about it
Speaker 1: gets them very angry, so they'll often start insulting, criticizing, humiliating,
Speaker 1: and degrading the other person. So then it's even worse.
Speaker 1: The the best play, the best play, honestly, is to
Speaker 1: walk away with your head held high, and honestly, then
Speaker 1: you're kind of sticking it to them too, because now
Speaker 1: they've lost their sulf like you're dead because I left
Speaker 1: one and found another. Yeah, that's why I'm saying you
Speaker 1: need that detox perience. What is a detox? Like I
Speaker 1: just said, you need time a long but it's it's
Speaker 1: definitely and you know what, Listen, a lot of people
Speaker 1: in narcissistic relationships, they stay at the table too long.
Speaker 1: They really do. So the last year or two of
Speaker 1: a narcissistic relationship, this thing is already dead in the water,
Speaker 1: so people crave tie. I often say, if you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissist, try and get things like
Speaker 1: massages from time to time, just so you can have
Speaker 1: real human touch that doesn't feel like sort of this
Speaker 1: toxic kind of angry sex touch or no touch, which
Speaker 1: is what does tend to happen in narcissistic relationship is
Speaker 1: a frequency of sex drops down. Something's weird with so
Speaker 1: they're not going to be touching. So they're touching someone else,
Speaker 1: but they're not going to be like holding your hand
Speaker 1: or saying. It's not very intimate. It's very performance art sex.
Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes it's very athletic and it's very exciting
Speaker 1: and it's very seductive, but it's very empty. And again
Speaker 1: it's like, in fact, they managed to position themselves during
Speaker 1: sex to highlight their best physical attributes. It's all very theatrical.
Speaker 1: Is this familiar A little bit? On the hand, the
Speaker 1: hand holding are more like affection a straight it is,
Speaker 1: so I'm not convinced the third one was the narcissist.
Speaker 1: I'm still holding out hope that I'm two. But the
Speaker 1: third sex at it? Who the the third one? Yeah,
Speaker 1: the one that we talked about that. I'm still not certain.
Speaker 1: There's there's too much insensitivity there, So let's not call
Speaker 1: him a narcissist. But if we call this person deeply insensitive?
Speaker 1: Still not sold on the third one. First, she she
Speaker 1: wants to have that last call, try a little bit
Speaker 1: because and what is it in me? That's like, I'll
Speaker 1: just let me try? Yeah, why does she want to listen?
Speaker 1: I'm going to spit ball here. We don't know each
Speaker 1: other super well. We've talked a bit, but you know,
Speaker 1: I would really want to do the deeper dive into
Speaker 1: your childhood. You know, maybe you might have grown up
Speaker 1: in a very happy home, but that idea that you
Speaker 1: had to somehow take care of maybe mom, maybe dad,
Speaker 1: maybe everyone, and that that's your role and you're going
Speaker 1: to keep doing it because that's where you got your
Speaker 1: identity from that to give up that role and to
Speaker 1: keep trying this until you really feel it's done. The
Speaker 1: real risk for you is to stay in too long
Speaker 1: so you truly feel like you tried everything, but that
Speaker 1: stuff you learn young. I think on the first one,
Speaker 1: well not probably not the first one, but the most
Speaker 1: recent first one. That one was I knew something was
Speaker 1: not right, like two months in and I three years later.
Speaker 1: But by the time I left three years later, I
Speaker 1: was done. But I was gonna say, like, does this
Speaker 1: seem like narcissist to you? Sorry, I'm so like snotty too. No,
Speaker 1: I mean seeing emotion when you're pregnant and make sure
Speaker 1: even more emotional like a snott over here as well.
Speaker 1: So I once said, I feel like you're not reciprocal,
Speaker 1: and he was like, what do you mean? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, and I gave this example and
Speaker 1: I said, oh, I did this, and you didn't say
Speaker 1: thank you. And the person sent me maybe twenty emails
Speaker 1: that we had sent to each other where the thank
Speaker 1: you was highlighted and it was so brutal. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was like it's petty. It is. And and in fact,
Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissists is like death by a
Speaker 1: thousand cuts. You stay and you get cut, and you
Speaker 1: get caught in one day you're like you're done, Like
Speaker 1: you can't bear it. Anymore, but that petty kind of
Speaker 1: counting the thank you It's like, how dare you showing
Speaker 1: you a record of every gift? Look at all these
Speaker 1: thank you there's a lot. They like to account all that.
Speaker 1: They keep an accounting of grievances of things they've done,
Speaker 1: and like good accountants, they pull out the books when
Speaker 1: they need them, and you're like, you really were paying
Speaker 1: attention all along, but to the wrong stuff. So because
Speaker 1: I'd say, that was sort of towards where I was like, gops,
Speaker 1: to get this is a lot. But what if it's
Speaker 1: to narcissists one? Oh lord, everyone, I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: really like you you almost want to it's fireworks. It's fireworks.
Speaker 1: It's two people engaged in parallel play, and it all
Speaker 1: seems to go quite well because it's also superficial. But
Speaker 1: at some point somebody needs more narcissistic supply than the
Speaker 1: other or so what happens that or one person's career
Speaker 1: or something in life is going better, and that's when
Speaker 1: all of it falls apart, which tends to happen in
Speaker 1: most case when it falls apart, like example, um, when
Speaker 1: it falls apart one person we live in Hollywood, like
Speaker 1: one person gets the part they want and the other
Speaker 1: person is sort of still languishing and doing like local theater.
Speaker 1: So then what will the narcissists due to the other narcissis.
Speaker 1: So then the one will start getting angry because all
Speaker 1: of the person who's still in local theater will get
Speaker 1: angry at the person who got the big part because
Speaker 1: they're insecure and they're going getting ahead is making them
Speaker 1: feel more insecure, and so they'll keep you know, pushing
Speaker 1: at them. They'll try to tear them down, and they'll
Speaker 1: keep criticizing them. Well, narcissist isn't gonna put up with that,
Speaker 1: So they're going to say, well, the reason you do
Speaker 1: community theaters because you're a loser and you have no talent.
Speaker 1: And then they'll just get each other down and tell
Speaker 1: neither of you listen. I'm glad when the narcissists find
Speaker 1: each other because it gets them out of our water supply.
Speaker 1: The tragedy the tragedies when they have kids, that devastates,
Speaker 1: devastating because there's really no one really on it with
Speaker 1: the kids, right, these are kids who do go on.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of risks for these kids then as adults,
Speaker 1: so that I'm not okay with, but they want to
Speaker 1: they want to get together find just tryed to avoid
Speaker 1: having kids. It's or hire the best care on the
Speaker 1: planet for those kids, or have the best grandma possible.
Speaker 1: But most of the time that grandma was a narcissistic.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, so it's rough. No, No,
Speaker 1: I've seen it happen over and over again again, especially
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, and clients that that aren't the narcissists that
Speaker 1: are dealing with a narcissists feel crazy. Oh, that's exactly
Speaker 1: what brought them in. They say, I am losing my mind,
Speaker 1: I've lost all grip on reality. I've tried this, I've
Speaker 1: done this. Why isn't it working out? And it must
Speaker 1: be my fault because nothing's working for whatever reason. They
Speaker 1: don't think it's the other person, you know, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's almost like it's like jousting at windmills, right, you're
Speaker 1: never going to get it right. But they all the time,
Speaker 1: you feel like they're going crazy, confusing because other people
Speaker 1: like the narcissists so much. That's exactly. Sometimes I'm like,
Speaker 1: what like people always like he's the best, greatest guy
Speaker 1: and it's like you don't know. And all narcissists, for
Speaker 1: the most part, are successful, not at all. There's a
Speaker 1: subgroup of what we call covert or more vulnerable narcissists.
Speaker 1: Things don't go well for them and they blame the world.
Speaker 1: You know, I would have been a great success if
Speaker 1: you know, I was bigger than Steve Jobs, I was
Speaker 1: smarter than Albert Einstein. You know, I had Bill Gates
Speaker 1: idea before he ever had it. And now they're still
Speaker 1: living in their mother's basement, so clearly that didn't work
Speaker 1: out for them. Insecurity is more um close, like you
Speaker 1: feel and hear their insecurities. Also, I'm not that smart, yeah,
Speaker 1: because that's a narcissist. Yeah, And it's sort of like
Speaker 1: where you go, what are you talking about? And then
Speaker 1: you see but it's as you can tell them how
Speaker 1: great they are, yeah, like you know, I'm never gonna
Speaker 1: make it this business? Are you kidding me? Here? The
Speaker 1: most talented whatever phil it in doctor like me so much.
Speaker 1: But it's so nice that you do. And then the
Speaker 1: next day they'll be like, and no one's ever going
Speaker 1: to love you the way I do. If anyone ever
Speaker 1: says to you, no one's ever gonna love you like
Speaker 1: I do. Change your number and move it, and won't.
Speaker 1: They often say leave, You're not going to do better
Speaker 1: than major leave, Leave, leave, They but dangle from it.
Speaker 1: That's different because that feels so antagonistic. But some people
Speaker 1: really fall hard for somebody saying no one is ever
Speaker 1: going to love you the way I do, instead of
Speaker 1: seeing that as the toxic, scary, manipulative thing. That is,
Speaker 1: people think think like whoa, i' mean this a great
Speaker 1: love story. That's that's where it gets named. And the
Speaker 1: second that you do leave, are you threatened to leave?
Speaker 1: That's when they love bombing comes from. And they just
Speaker 1: turn it on and then you forget it. So they're
Speaker 1: not nice again. They're super nice, overly nice, and it
Speaker 1: outweighs all these horrible bad times that you guys just
Speaker 1: had for this one good good Very confusing. It's very confusing,
Speaker 1: that's the bottom line. It's a very confusing. There's somebody
Speaker 1: who once wrote a book called um too good to leave,
Speaker 1: Too bad to stay, and that was perfectly put. Because
Speaker 1: you have people say there are enough good days, enough
Speaker 1: good hours to keep me in it, to which I say,
Speaker 1: you almost have to view the good days as like
Speaker 1: the harvest season, like put all that good stuff away
Speaker 1: because there's rough days coming ahead, and then just white
Speaker 1: knuckle it and then get that's a it's a heck
Speaker 1: of a way too. I can't do it. It's tough,
Speaker 1: it's yeah, and sorry, just I'm probably running out of time.
Speaker 1: But he'll we're okay, We're okay, okay, good, I'm mechanic um.
Speaker 1: In regards to I know you just said the difference
Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a psychopath, but what's the difference
Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a sociopath? So psychopath and socio
Speaker 1: sociopath is sort of a term that's not as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, people use it, but it's actually in the
Speaker 1: scientific literature. It's a hazier term psychopath that's got a
Speaker 1: lot more meat behind it. A sociopath is considered to
Speaker 1: be like a psychopath in some ways. Their nervous system
Speaker 1: is different, so like when they do when we do
Speaker 1: bad things, we feel uncomfortable, you know, like if we
Speaker 1: I don't know, we cut someone off in a certain way.
Speaker 1: If we were to actually try to break a rule,
Speaker 1: our hearts starts being a little faster. That doesn't happen
Speaker 1: for a psychopath, and as a result, they tolerate stress
Speaker 1: really well. So that's why they often do make like
Speaker 1: great soldiers are great surgeons even because stress doesn't bother them.
Speaker 1: Sociopaths aren't like that. They also don't feel remorse. They
Speaker 1: can also be quite dangerous. They can also quite be
Speaker 1: violent because they tend to be more hotheaded than psychopaths.
Speaker 1: Violent like going on a killing spree, or violent like
Speaker 1: domestic abuse. All of the above yeah so um. And
Speaker 1: it's believed that in some ways the psychopath might be
Speaker 1: more of a pure biological variant of this person who
Speaker 1: can do bad things and not worry about it. A
Speaker 1: sociopath might be more like that as a byproduct of
Speaker 1: their upbringing, like they grew up with significant neglect or
Speaker 1: significant abuse. Again, the research is still kind of evolving
Speaker 1: on that. I prefer sticking to psychopath and narcissist. I
Speaker 1: think spectrum to where like I'm picking the on a
Speaker 1: one to ten, the five, and the five you can
Speaker 1: stick a little longer because they're not so bad, which
Speaker 1: is why I'm always like, are they are they? When
Speaker 1: you say are they are they? They probably are about
Speaker 1: a three or four or five when they were at eight,
Speaker 1: nine or ten. You're just calling nine one one like
Speaker 1: you're like, I need to get out of here. But
Speaker 1: they are on a spectrum, and there's different kinds too.
Speaker 1: There's what I call those more vulnar able narcissists that
Speaker 1: don't look so grandiose. They actually are the ones who
Speaker 1: tend to be more like victims. Woe is me, nobody
Speaker 1: gets me. You know, we talked about these so called
Speaker 1: in cells. That's more of the vulnerable narsis. In cells
Speaker 1: are these guys who are involuntarily celibate and they get
Speaker 1: mad and they kill people. I mean, it's really it's
Speaker 1: it's like the Joker was probably a vulnerable narcissist. And
Speaker 1: that's an example of that. I didn't pick any of those.
Speaker 1: Uh sorry about that. Um is this considered like a diagnosed,
Speaker 1: diagnosed psychological disorder. So this is where a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, well, how dare you be sitting there diagnosing people?
Speaker 1: Were not diagnosing people narcissist. To call someone narcissistic, it's
Speaker 1: an adjective, like calling someone stubborn or agreeable or clingy.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a descriptive term. When we call it
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder, then it's a diagnosis. But actually the
Speaker 1: prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder is only somewhere between two
Speaker 1: and five. And the reason it's so low is that
Speaker 1: for something to be called a mental illness, it has
Speaker 1: to cause a person significant impairment in their lives or
Speaker 1: they need to be distressed about it. Well, a lot
Speaker 1: of narcissists are actually pretty cool with their lives. They
Speaker 1: got lives, they got girlfriends, they got money, like, and
Speaker 1: they don't recognize the insecurity in themselves. It's not like
Speaker 1: they're walking around saying I'm really insecure. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: a jerk. I think if they were listening to this,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't even know we're talking about They would not,
Speaker 1: they absolutely would not, And I think that's what's so maddening,
Speaker 1: because like, for example, if you're in a relationship with
Speaker 1: somebody with depression, they'd know it about themselves and say,
Speaker 1: I know I'm depressed, and I know at times that
Speaker 1: makes it hard for you to talk to me. And
Speaker 1: I know that means at times I don't want to
Speaker 1: go out and I apologize. So there's something rather self
Speaker 1: aware at that for a person struggling with many other
Speaker 1: mental illnesses. This is a very little, unique space, which
Speaker 1: is why I got into research in this area because
Speaker 1: it was such an odd space and mental health. And
Speaker 1: I'm also looking through like kind of some of the
Speaker 1: most asked questions I'm getting, and one that is just
Speaker 1: blowing up my phone is I have to co parent
Speaker 1: with a narcissist. Good please give me the best advice.
Speaker 1: Number one, I want this poor person to not even
Speaker 1: use the word co parent because you're basically a single
Speaker 1: parent with an elephant on your back, you know, because
Speaker 1: the co parenting implies cooperation and collaboration. I tell people
Speaker 1: who co parent with a narcissist, make sure you document everything,
Speaker 1: make sure that you are you Often co parents with
Speaker 1: narcissists will sometimes spend a lot of their custody time
Speaker 1: sort of undoing what happened when the child was with
Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent. You have to be willing to talk
Speaker 1: to your kids about emotions a lot, because their narcissistic
Speaker 1: parent may not do that. You have to. You just
Speaker 1: have to give your kid time to kind of come
Speaker 1: back into your household because that can be hard. Your
Speaker 1: narcissistic co parent or other parent is often going to
Speaker 1: be trying to go to war with you. I always say,
Speaker 1: if a narcissist knows you want something, they're not going
Speaker 1: to want to give it to you. So you've got
Speaker 1: to play it cool when it comes to custody. A
Speaker 1: lot of parents I wish I could have a d
Speaker 1: percent custody, and I said, you know you're narcissistic. Other
Speaker 1: parents may not be as interested in custody as you think.
Speaker 1: Kids are kind of a headache, right They demand time
Speaker 1: and attention. I said, if you play it cool and
Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're getting a win over you,
Speaker 1: you might actually get more and you'll making money based
Speaker 1: and all of that. So, but you really have to
Speaker 1: have patience. You need to be in your own therapy,
Speaker 1: You need to be in support groups. Do not many
Speaker 1: times these divorces don't work with mediators. You do need
Speaker 1: attorneys because it starts getting very messy and mediation may
Speaker 1: not cut it. In some cases it might, but in
Speaker 1: many cases it won't. And you need to be and
Speaker 1: you need to know that you're gonna have to keep
Speaker 1: revisiting this over and over again. This is not a
Speaker 1: one off. This is something that is going to torment
Speaker 1: you until your kids are old enough to make their
Speaker 1: own custody decisions or move out of the house, and
Speaker 1: it will take a toll on your kids. There's you
Speaker 1: do not get to do this without this taking a
Speaker 1: toll on your kids. And then, in that same token,
Speaker 1: if you see somebody in your life that is with
Speaker 1: a narcissist, that's another question. How do you tell your friend,
Speaker 1: your sister, your whatever, like, how do you help them? Don't?
Speaker 1: First of all, don't tell them directly, because if you
Speaker 1: tell them directly, they're going to defend the narcissists and say,
Speaker 1: how dare you diagnose my boyfriend? The best thing you
Speaker 1: can do is take note of patterns and tell them
Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable. Say you know what, Jill, I hope
Speaker 1: you're doing okay? You know I was. I just had
Speaker 1: a moment at dinner. He said something to you, and
Speaker 1: I don't know, it felt a little disrespectful. Are you okay?
Speaker 1: At that point, I'm not saying he's a jerk, I'm
Speaker 1: checking in with Jill. My goal in that was to
Speaker 1: plant a seat of doubt for Jill, like, something isn't
Speaker 1: quite right, because in that moment, Jill is already probably
Speaker 1: taking it on as something she's done, or Jill's like
Speaker 1: somebody just noticed, And that's the key that somebody notes,
Speaker 1: not calling him out, but reflecting on her, because you're
Speaker 1: noticing all these things that you're ignoring them, but then
Speaker 1: once somebody else points it out to you, then it's
Speaker 1: like an additional right. But but making it about her
Speaker 1: in citizening that he's a jerk, No, he's not. I
Speaker 1: noticed that he was talking to Are you okay? Makes sense?
Speaker 1: Nobody gonna break up with someone else because you tell
Speaker 1: them to. That just doesn't work. And also, you know,
Speaker 1: because there's so many things out there that say, like
Speaker 1: narcissism isn't treatable and no luck if somebody is a
Speaker 1: narcissist and they are in a marriage or they're in
Speaker 1: a situation where they want to get better. I know
Speaker 1: you said that they couldn't start being more aware of
Speaker 1: what they're saying when they're saying things to people, But like,
Speaker 1: what where is their hope if they really want to
Speaker 1: get this right, and they're willing to go into their
Speaker 1: own therapy, and they're willing to go into couples therapy
Speaker 1: and they're willing to do the daily hard work. You
Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit, a little
Speaker 1: bit of movement and maybe enough movement to keep it
Speaker 1: all together, maybe to get the kids out of the house.
Speaker 1: Will narcissists actually go to therapy? Oh yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: told you. I see them all the time, but like
Speaker 1: they're they're fine when they're wife And sometimes I call
Speaker 1: them out. I mean, I had one guy walking and
Speaker 1: before his but hit the chair. He's like, Hi, nice
Speaker 1: to meet you. The NARCISSI is, what can you do
Speaker 1: for me? I'm like, not much, but let's see what
Speaker 1: we get to. It's almost like someone brings in an
Speaker 1: old car and I'm like, it's probably just this is
Speaker 1: this one. We might sell this phone four parts, but
Speaker 1: you can't sell that. Questions. Yeah, one is if I
Speaker 1: or anyone listening was in like a strong, confident place,
Speaker 1: can you interact with the narcissists better? Absolutely? And can
Speaker 1: they not break you? Because I have to say, is
Speaker 1: somebody who does this? And it this is a long
Speaker 1: journey for me too, And I went through my own
Speaker 1: therapy with the Master. You know, is that really you do?
Speaker 1: Because what ends up happening is and I'm sure more
Speaker 1: than a few people have called me arrogant because once
Speaker 1: I sense there's a narcissist in the room, people also
Speaker 1: must think I have irritable bowel syndromes. I'm always thying,
Speaker 1: I have to go to the restroom, which is my
Speaker 1: waft getting out of the room. I've I've left dinner
Speaker 1: parties mid course. I won't. I won't stay in the
Speaker 1: presence of it. I mean, and I think that that's
Speaker 1: what you've got to remember. We all have the ability
Speaker 1: to step out of a situation where there's a narcissist present.
Speaker 1: Now I have three questions, so many questions. Now if
Speaker 1: you my question is like I feel like in certain
Speaker 1: situations that reciprocal thing was so not There is there
Speaker 1: edner any healing that could happen just for me standing
Speaker 1: up for myself. Like I know you all said, don't
Speaker 1: talk to him, don't talk to him, but it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I get anything from being like, Hey, you asked me
Speaker 1: to do this, and I did it, and this is
Speaker 1: what I need from you. No, but you're not going
Speaker 1: to get it. So if you're good with asking for
Speaker 1: it and not getting it, then do it. Well, could
Speaker 1: that be that proof that I'm looking for, and then
Speaker 1: if they did do it, then I would be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: if you're being honest with yourself that all you're doing
Speaker 1: is looking for proof, you know that really that I'm
Speaker 1: you know, I can't tell you how many people out
Speaker 1: there clients've worked with and said, yeah, I'm not looking
Speaker 1: at his phone, because as long as I don't look
Speaker 1: at his phone, I can pretend he's not having an affair.
Speaker 1: You know, they can stay in that relationship and in
Speaker 1: that delusion because they said, once I see it and
Speaker 1: I stay, then that makes me a real fool. And
Speaker 1: so you're thinking like, okay, like this is like a
Speaker 1: Santa Claus thing, Like yeah, I mean sorry to your
Speaker 1: listeners who believe in it, but like, yeah, sorry, the
Speaker 1: jig's up game. So um, yeah, I read this article
Speaker 1: about the fear of knowing verse versus the need to know.
Speaker 1: So it's the same thing here that you know, if
Speaker 1: you're really you have to figure out for yourself is
Speaker 1: what am I trying to do here? Am I really
Speaker 1: trying to get that last piece of information? And once
Speaker 1: I have that, then I'm going to go. My concern
Speaker 1: is that then there's going to be one more thing
Speaker 1: you need to know. Then there's gonna be one more
Speaker 1: thing you need to know, and then before you know,
Speaker 1: you've blinked your eyes in two more years have gone
Speaker 1: by and you've not been in a healthy place when
Speaker 1: you deserve so much better. Unsure on the answer on
Speaker 1: that one, I don't know yet. When it's happened in
Speaker 1: the past, does that last call? So I think for me,
Speaker 1: when I moved on from from one years ago, it
Speaker 1: was because I finally was like, I know, and then
Speaker 1: the move on was actually pretty easy, but it had
Speaker 1: been years of torture. So I think I have that
Speaker 1: a little bit in me. But you bring up an
Speaker 1: issue again. I write about it in this in a
Speaker 1: section of this book that my most recent book called
Speaker 1: the line. Everyone has the line that gets crossed. For you,
Speaker 1: it was within five years for you, it will be
Speaker 1: within a certain number of years I've been in relationships,
Speaker 1: or was a certain number of years, and so that
Speaker 1: line is very personal. Okay, for some people, it's knowing
Speaker 1: a partner cheated. For someone, it may be knowing that
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that they broke the law.
Speaker 1: You know. For someone else, it would be that they
Speaker 1: cursed at them. I mean, the line varies depending on
Speaker 1: the person, but once that line gets crossed, that's where
Speaker 1: I see clients and people get mobilized to say I'm out.
Speaker 1: It could very well be that they spoke harshly to
Speaker 1: a child, like the first time they called a child
Speaker 1: that's like, okay, I'm not doing this. And I'm a
Speaker 1: friend who finally got divorced because it went from her
Speaker 1: to the child exactly. So when she left that that line,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what the question is. You're asking,
Speaker 1: is what is your line? And that's personal. And for me,
Speaker 1: I've always been very I never judge if a person
Speaker 1: says I'm going to wait another ten years. And in fact,
Speaker 1: probably the most beautiful book part of this book is
Speaker 1: a woman gave me a letter. She stayed in a
Speaker 1: narcissistic marriage ten years longer than she should have. I
Speaker 1: have a podcast and somebody had called in who was
Speaker 1: just in the beginning of such a marriage. This other
Speaker 1: listener sent this letter in to read to this woman.
Speaker 1: It was like, what happens to you when you say
Speaker 1: another ten years? It's brutal. It's brutal. You find this
Speaker 1: letter by buying my book and going to I think
Speaker 1: it's like three five or something. Well, and yeah, everybody's
Speaker 1: line is different because I have friends who whose line
Speaker 1: they would be out minute one and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back about so don't drudge your line though,
Speaker 1: that's my point. Everybody's everyone buying different. And then what
Speaker 1: happens is, though that line, your tolerance drops. Like next
Speaker 1: time for you, Jual, it's going to be you're going
Speaker 1: to get there a lot quicker. You're going to be
Speaker 1: much better at advocating for yourself because you're saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I know how this works. It's almost like taking
Speaker 1: a class, like you know, I know how to multiply,
Speaker 1: like I got you multiplication, like I got you narcissism.
Speaker 1: Which then, I mean, can we kind of dig into
Speaker 1: sex addiction. Why we're here? I mean, because I'm hearing
Speaker 1: so much close. They're very close. In fact, they're highly
Speaker 1: highly correlated. In fact, i'd say the bulk of sex
Speaker 1: addicts are probably narcissists and they're giving it a nicer name.
Speaker 1: And aren't therapists divided? Yes, yeah, sex addiction is a thing. Yeah, there,
Speaker 1: we're very divided. I am more of a this is
Speaker 1: sort of a disregulated narcissist. Because here's the thing. We
Speaker 1: don't call someone a sex addict if they're not in
Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship. So many times some some do. Like
Speaker 1: a person, let's say every night they're going to a
Speaker 1: different sex worker, or they watch porn twelve fourteen hours
Speaker 1: a day to the point where it's disrupting their life
Speaker 1: where they might be getting illnesses or you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it is. Whatever it may be, and they're in a relationship,
Speaker 1: we tend to sometimes be less likely to diagnose and
Speaker 1: less of persons like, yeah, I'm not going to work,
Speaker 1: so I watching porn all day. If the person is
Speaker 1: in a relationship, obviously it's causing much more disruption this
Speaker 1: kind of behavior because of um, because there's another person involved.
Speaker 1: When it involves they're in a relationship like a marriage
Speaker 1: or whatever, fiance or something, and they do this, then
Speaker 1: there's no empathy for that person. But some people will
Speaker 1: argue they're so disregulated it's like using drugs. They can't
Speaker 1: stop themselves. I've worked with more and more clients who
Speaker 1: are dealing with that disregulated sex, and I can see
Speaker 1: them not stop themselves. But like there's no emotional connection
Speaker 1: to the sex on this and none whatsoever. Like they're
Speaker 1: in there out like it's they're like, I'm not even
Speaker 1: feeling it, but even when they're seeing the aftermath truly
Speaker 1: affect their partner. So substitute drugs for sex then okay,
Speaker 1: So it's almost this is an addiction, So you're going
Speaker 1: to have to deal with It's a disregulated an addiction
Speaker 1: of disregulated behavior. They can't stop themselves. People who spend
Speaker 1: a lot, people who eat a lot, like these things
Speaker 1: do kind of cluster in the same space. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think that what is harder is that sex happens
Speaker 1: in an interpersonal space. It's different than eating a cheesecake
Speaker 1: or spending ten dollars at a shop or something. Could
Speaker 1: somebody be in a marriage that might not be a
Speaker 1: bad marriage, it's it might even be a good marriage,
Speaker 1: but they do have an emotional connection with someone else,
Speaker 1: and the sex with that person is emotional. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a tricky space because I mean, there's people out
Speaker 1: there in the polyamory community who would argue that's very possible.
Speaker 1: I have to say that here's here's the rule of thumb.
Speaker 1: If that if the spouse in that marriage found out
Speaker 1: and would be broken by it. Then I don't think
Speaker 1: that other relationship could ship could be healthy because you're
Speaker 1: engaging in something outside of your marriage that could devastate
Speaker 1: another human being. I always say to people, if you're cheating,
Speaker 1: if your partner is going to sign off on this
Speaker 1: and everyone's cool, which I've worked with plenty of couples
Speaker 1: where that's the case, that's then that's fine. So what
Speaker 1: does it say? So A lot of what I've heard
Speaker 1: when it comes to sex addiction and whatnot is that
Speaker 1: there's one partner that's that's doing it and then the
Speaker 1: other partner is not, and it's obviously devastated. But if
Speaker 1: it were to reverse that other partner would leave them.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So what does that? That's where it
Speaker 1: brings me to. That's a narcissist listening. Addiction of all
Speaker 1: forms and narcissism often hang out together in a significant
Speaker 1: chunk of cases, and what you'll sometimes see it's heartbreaking
Speaker 1: for families. Oh my god, this person is such a jerk,
Speaker 1: and it's because they're using drugs. And when we get
Speaker 1: them into rehab and they come out, everything's gonna be fine.
Speaker 1: They come out of rehab. Now they're sober and they're
Speaker 1: a jerk, which means the narcissism remained that the the
Speaker 1: drug or alcohol addiction is gone. Would be the same
Speaker 1: with any kind of an addictive state. Narcissistic people, because
Speaker 1: they're so empty, they need to regulate from the outside
Speaker 1: and they can't manage their feelings on their own, so
Speaker 1: they spend, They eat, they drink, they drug, they have sex,
Speaker 1: They do all these external behaviors to manage the emptiness
Speaker 1: and all the feelings they have because they don't know
Speaker 1: how to name them, they don't know how to talk
Speaker 1: with them about them, and they don't know how to
Speaker 1: be with them, which is why they have big appetites,
Speaker 1: and that's why they spend so much money. And it's
Speaker 1: like always regulating, regulating, regulating, And that's like a coal
Speaker 1: of damage that I filled the whole. That's what you did.
Speaker 1: You filled the whole until something else will fill the whole.
Speaker 1: Like you're just you're on a conveyor belt of whole
Speaker 1: filling things. But it did feel emotional at the time,
Speaker 1: But talk to an addict, that's what they're filling. To
Speaker 1: talk to someone who does a ton of coke or
Speaker 1: smokes weed all the time. They're filling a hole and
Speaker 1: I felt like a crack addictive. That's right, And so
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. That's where we use the term codependency.
Speaker 1: So you feel like you need it, you have to
Speaker 1: have it. But in the same way, like you know,
Speaker 1: a narcissist isn't going to have empathy. If a sex
Speaker 1: addict is caught cheating by his wife, will he feel empathy?
Speaker 1: It depends. If they're narcissistic, probably not. If it's a
Speaker 1: person who's struggling with sex addiction, they may actually be
Speaker 1: really remorseful. But how can you tell? How can you know?
Speaker 1: I think part of it is commitment to treatment. It's
Speaker 1: um coming clean about it. It's taking ownership clean prior
Speaker 1: to getting caught, coming clean prior getting caught. Exactly, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And then what because we
Speaker 1: know the red flags for a narcissists, what are the
Speaker 1: red flags if you're getting into a relationship with somebody
Speaker 1: who has a sex addiction. I think that you know,
Speaker 1: first of all, there could be things like you know,
Speaker 1: if you come into knowledge of somehow see that there
Speaker 1: they are engaging in a lot of porn news. If
Speaker 1: they are um their sexual wants, needs, asks or something
Speaker 1: that they're not communicating clearly, you feel uncomfortable to you.
Speaker 1: They start talking about their sexual history and it's something like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's more elaborated than you thought, and it's okay to
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable with that and ask more questions about it.
Speaker 1: It's often something hard to suss out in the beginning,
Speaker 1: have to be honest with you. A lot of people
Speaker 1: will say they were blindsided by this because so personal
Speaker 1: porn can be watched. It's not like the old days, right,
Speaker 1: the VHS days, like you're onto it. Nowadays you can
Speaker 1: park in you know, parking a lot and watch your
Speaker 1: porn before you go into the office. Nobody is the wiser.
Speaker 1: So people will walk in on people, they'll see, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll see the you know, the cash and a computer.
Speaker 1: Whatever they see that it might come out in that way.
Speaker 1: But if somebody, for example, who goes on business trips
Speaker 1: a lot and see sex workers on those business trips
Speaker 1: and has like people they know who to pay in
Speaker 1: those cities or something like that, that's hard to that's
Speaker 1: hard to track because they often like they have no
Speaker 1: relationship with that person other than having sex with them
Speaker 1: when they go to that city. I mean, I've I've
Speaker 1: heard so many variants of this. Somebody wants to hide this.
Speaker 1: They'll hide this just like any addict can hide it.
Speaker 1: And a sex attict is not going to sex to
Speaker 1: get validation, it's to regulate. It's filling a different kind
Speaker 1: of need and sometimes those two overlap. I have so
Speaker 1: many more questions time. Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I feel like people honestly right and ask us more questions.
Speaker 1: We can do this again because I want to get
Speaker 1: all your questions answered. I mean, I still have more questions,
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. My absolute pleasu with thank
Speaker 1: you again. Thank you for being so open and honest too,
Speaker 1: because I think that helps people who are listening to
Speaker 1: realize how painful that this is. And they're not foolish.
Speaker 1: They did something very pure and honest. They fell in love.
Speaker 1: That's not that. Never blame yourself for that. Very true. Well,
Speaker 1: I know I personally am going to be reading your
Speaker 1: fault books, but take your life back? And should I
Speaker 1: stay or should I go? Oh? My goodness, is the
Speaker 1: new book? Don't you know who I am? How to stay?
Speaker 1: Sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and shoot, now
Speaker 1: you're just tell me about that incivilitylity? Does that mean
Speaker 1: I don't have that. It's the world today, it's the
Speaker 1: world I can read ish. Thank you, Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me. Thank you, thanks for listening. Subscribe
Speaker 1: to radio or wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going to come back and