Speaker 1: This is Teddy t PO. Hi guys, welcome back to
Speaker 1: this week of Teddy Teapod. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: emailing in. We did a podcast on infertility, and so
Speaker 1: many responses about like, hey, Teddy, cover the other side
Speaker 1: of the story, people who don't want to have kids,
Speaker 1: so um, I wanted to lean into that a little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know from my own personal experience. I
Speaker 1: most of you guys know, I used to ride horses
Speaker 1: professionally and before I met my husband, that's what I did,
Speaker 1: and I always said, you know what, I don't want
Speaker 1: to have kids. It's not something I'm interested in doing.
Speaker 1: I really want to focus on my riding career. And
Speaker 1: it it wasn't something I even put much thought into.
Speaker 1: It was just something I would say because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is something that you know, I'm
Speaker 1: on the road all the time. It's not going to
Speaker 1: work for for this lifestyle and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: then I met Edwin and I still kind of thought
Speaker 1: that same way. And it wasn't until I met his
Speaker 1: daughter that I was like, wow, I you know, this
Speaker 1: is something I really do want and that all those
Speaker 1: reasons I was feeling that way was because of fear
Speaker 1: of being vulnerable or not being the perfect mother or
Speaker 1: any of those things. So that, you know, also kind
Speaker 1: of plays into this topic that we're in because I
Speaker 1: know that people can change their mind, but I also
Speaker 1: know that some people will not change their mind. And
Speaker 1: I said something on the show that I'm on my
Speaker 1: very first season, and I it was when I was
Speaker 1: talking about my infertility struggles, and I said something along
Speaker 1: the lines of, you know, when I couldn't get pregnant,
Speaker 1: I was putting so much pressure on myself and I
Speaker 1: was really beating myself up because I couldn't get pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I felt like it was my job as a woman.
Speaker 1: And I cannot even tell you how many people reach
Speaker 1: out to me enraged, like how could you say that?
Speaker 1: And it was my own personal pressure I had put
Speaker 1: on myself that you know. Of course, I don't feel
Speaker 1: like everybody should feel that way, but it was something
Speaker 1: I had done. But that really leads me to that
Speaker 1: topic of yes, for the other side of the coin,
Speaker 1: for the people that don't want to have kids versus
Speaker 1: the people being okay with not having kids due to circumstances.
Speaker 1: You know, somebody I know is talking about how people
Speaker 1: will constantly ask her how many kids do you have?
Speaker 1: And she goes zero and she just watches their face
Speaker 1: panic and squirm on what to ask next. I mean,
Speaker 1: even our own engineer Eastern has shared with us that
Speaker 1: he and his wife do not want to do not
Speaker 1: want kids. Can you share a little it about that
Speaker 1: thought process? How you guys came along to discussing that?
Speaker 1: Was it right from the beginning? Yeah? Yeah, when we
Speaker 1: got married two years ago, so something we talked about.
Speaker 1: And at the time we were very much like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't I at least I want to
Speaker 1: do it right now. You know, that's if that's something
Speaker 1: we want to do, it's not right now. And now
Speaker 1: it's been a couple of years, we talked about it
Speaker 1: again and we're like, I don't, I don't want to
Speaker 1: do Neither of us has had that drive to like
Speaker 1: to be a parent or um continue our our d
Speaker 1: na um and uh, you know, for a while I
Speaker 1: felt like it was wrong or something, you know, but
Speaker 1: I thought about it, and uh, I just I would
Speaker 1: feel so guilty bringing a life into this world that
Speaker 1: I wasn't like absolutely dying to have, you know, and
Speaker 1: do you feel like your family or her family ever
Speaker 1: puts pressure on you guys or your friends asked questions
Speaker 1: like well, when you guys gonna have kids? You know?
Speaker 1: And what is your response to that? And then do
Speaker 1: you think you're judged? Afterwards? My my dad wants us
Speaker 1: to have kids so badly, so badly, and it's it's
Speaker 1: like it's irritating, but I, you know, I tell him like, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's probably not gonna happen, So get get used
Speaker 1: to that idea. And then, um, you know, if I
Speaker 1: meet people, because when you tell someone you're you're probably
Speaker 1: not going to have kids, they think like, oh, well
Speaker 1: do you I have kids? Do you dislike me? Do
Speaker 1: you think I'm doing something wrong? You know? And the
Speaker 1: and the answer is no, Like like, I love a
Speaker 1: lot of my friends have kids, and I love those
Speaker 1: kids and I love my friends. Um, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't drink either, And that's a there's a very similar
Speaker 1: I've seen a similar reaction when if someone says like, oh,
Speaker 1: do you want to get drink with me? Actually I
Speaker 1: don't drink. Then it becomes like, oh, well, you're attacking
Speaker 1: me or something because I do. And the answer is no,
Speaker 1: I'm very self centered. I'm I'm very I only focus
Speaker 1: on myself, another reason why I don't think I should
Speaker 1: have kids. But um, uh I do feel a certain
Speaker 1: amount of pressure. I think it's much less than it
Speaker 1: used to be. I think, like, you know, twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: it was a lot worse. But uh, I still do
Speaker 1: feel pressure from people to to you know, if you're
Speaker 1: married for x amunty years, you should start a family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like protocol. Yeah, it's like, hey, hey man,
Speaker 1: the funny games are over. You gotta you gotta start
Speaker 1: raising kids. But so do you, guys, do you and
Speaker 1: your wife ever think about, oh, maybe we'll change our mind,
Speaker 1: are you guys? Like no, I I really feel because
Speaker 1: somebody we're going to have a guest on later who
Speaker 1: she did a documentary and one of the people in
Speaker 1: the documentary is a twenty five year old who wants
Speaker 1: to sterilize herself so she cannot the possibility of having
Speaker 1: kids is no longer an option, and you know, like,
Speaker 1: so of course I understand somebody not wanting to, But
Speaker 1: then I also wonder, like what if you change your mind?
Speaker 1: You know, like, how do you how do you really know? Exactly.
Speaker 1: We're not at the point where like I'm going to
Speaker 1: be undergoing any medical procedures to prevent That's what I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, Like, would you have a vasectomy? No? No,
Speaker 1: I I'm not against it. You know a lot of
Speaker 1: my friends have had vasectomies and they have very healthy,
Speaker 1: fun lives. Um, I'm I'm not. Like, Obviously, people can
Speaker 1: grow and change, and people's perspectives on life change, so um,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's totally all the cards,
Speaker 1: but I'm you know, hey, I'm thirty two. It's not
Speaker 1: I'm not getting any younger, you know, and and uh,
Speaker 1: I know our window to to do it in a healthy,
Speaker 1: easy ways closing. So you know, we've talked about if
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it, we'll probably adopt. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's probably what we would do. Yeah. I think it's
Speaker 1: just such an interesting topic because there is so many
Speaker 1: i mean, even celebrities out there who have chosen not
Speaker 1: to have kids. You know, I can run down the list.
Speaker 1: It's Sarah Paulson, Alison Breed, Tracy Ellis Fross, Helen Mire
Speaker 1: and Kim Cortrelle, Jennifer Aniston, Oprah Renfrey, Cameron Diaz, Ashley
Speaker 1: Jed Winona Rider, Rashida Jones, Cameron Diaz, Chelsea Handler, Ellen DeGeneres,
Speaker 1: Oprah Renee Zewager, Mersa, Tomay, Rachel Ray, Betty White. And
Speaker 1: yet you're constantly reading in the press so and so
Speaker 1: is pregnant. You know, like it's like we just can't
Speaker 1: accept that somebody may not want to have kids. So
Speaker 1: what is it in us that feels the need to
Speaker 1: just drive that home or make somebody that's made that
Speaker 1: choice uncomfortable? What is it in us that feels the
Speaker 1: need that we have to understand their exact feeling and um,
Speaker 1: So that's why I'm so excited to have these different
Speaker 1: people on that have completely different experiences talking about the
Speaker 1: difference between childless two child free. So, guys, we're gonna
Speaker 1: take a little break and then we're gonna have Amy
Speaker 1: Blackstone on. She wrote a book called child Free by Choice,
Speaker 1: and I think she'll be awesome to talk to about
Speaker 1: this topic. Oh and other news, I have a gift
Speaker 1: for y'all. If you are in l A or southern
Speaker 1: California and you love Cheryl Crow, we have something special
Speaker 1: for you. See Cheryl Crow in a private performance at
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio Theater in Los Angeles. The best part,
Speaker 1: it's free, y'all know I love free. All you have
Speaker 1: to do is email us at Teddy t at I
Speaker 1: Heart radio dot com to r s v P. The
Speaker 1: show is Monday, December two at seven pm. So guys,
Speaker 1: we have Amy Blackstone on the line. She wrote child
Speaker 1: Free by Choice. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so I have to ask this first, Um, do
Speaker 1: you have kids? I do not? You do not? Okay,
Speaker 1: So what kind of led you to write this book? Well? UM,
Speaker 1: very appropriate that you asked the question, because although the
Speaker 1: book is based on my sociological research on the topic,
Speaker 1: what what drove me to do? This research really was
Speaker 1: a personal quest. Um. I'm forty seven years old now,
Speaker 1: and when I was in my mid thirties, I had
Speaker 1: a bunch of friends, one after another, UM share with
Speaker 1: me that they were pregnant and they were happily so
Speaker 1: and I was happy for them. UM, but I realized
Speaker 1: that as they were starting their families to use the
Speaker 1: most common vernacular, UM, I wasn't feeling the same poll
Speaker 1: toward motherhood that so many of them described. So I
Speaker 1: really wanted to understand I started out wanting to understand
Speaker 1: what was wrong with me, and discovered that I'm not
Speaker 1: alone in in this sort of lack of of poll
Speaker 1: toward motherhood. And then in fact, um what we think
Speaker 1: of as the natural drive to become a mother is
Speaker 1: really more social than it is genetic. And the research
Speaker 1: took off from there. So I learned that early on,
Speaker 1: and then I started interviewing a lot of child free
Speaker 1: women and men to learn about their experiences with that
Speaker 1: identity and then also to try to understand what drove
Speaker 1: that choice for them. Right, And I have a question.
Speaker 1: I know you're speaking a lot about women, but isn't
Speaker 1: there men as well who don't want to have kids.
Speaker 1: I mean, even George Clooney had said, I've always known
Speaker 1: fatherhood wasn't for me. Raising kids is a huge commitment
Speaker 1: and has to be your top priority. For me, that
Speaker 1: priority is my work. That's why I'll never get married again.
Speaker 1: Well he did say that, but then look what happened.
Speaker 1: Things change, so that's you know, it's definitely not just
Speaker 1: a women thing. But I I'm just curious because I
Speaker 1: I do completely understand, but why is it has it
Speaker 1: become something where if somebody meets somebody over a certain age,
Speaker 1: The first question is how many kids do you have?
Speaker 1: And then what what's what's good answer to give back?
Speaker 1: I mean, what is a way to kind of I
Speaker 1: mean in a way of saying this and the not
Speaker 1: nicest way to shut them up? Well, I mean in
Speaker 1: fairness to people who ask that it is for many people,
Speaker 1: it's a safe ice breaker. It's an easy thing to
Speaker 1: ask about, and more people of a certain age have
Speaker 1: children than don't, so it does feel like a comfortable
Speaker 1: thing to ask. But yes, you raise a good point, Well,
Speaker 1: how do you reas on if you're either a person
Speaker 1: like myself who has opted out of parenthood or or
Speaker 1: I think even worse, if you're a person who wanted
Speaker 1: to be a parent but couldn't become one for any
Speaker 1: number of reasons. That question can really be hurtful for people.
Speaker 1: So one one way that I respond when I get
Speaker 1: that question is I say, well, I don't have any kids,
Speaker 1: but one thing that I'm really passionate about is skiing
Speaker 1: or roller derby, or I love reading about wine, and
Speaker 1: try to direct the conversation to another area where we
Speaker 1: might find some common ground. And how do you kind
Speaker 1: of Because a lot of it is the difference between
Speaker 1: not wanting to have kids or people that, because of circumstances,
Speaker 1: don't have kids. And I feel like then people want
Speaker 1: to grill even more on that, or what if you
Speaker 1: change your mind or you know, all of those things.
Speaker 1: I mean I even I even asked that question, and
Speaker 1: I have to like stop myself, right, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I think that in terms of people who make the
Speaker 1: choice not to be parents, it's important to take them
Speaker 1: at their word, to trust what they're saying. And that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that everybody you know holds firm in that decision.
Speaker 1: Some people George Clooney is a great example, do change
Speaker 1: their minds, but that doesn't mean that everybody does, Nor
Speaker 1: does it mean that we shouldn't take people at their
Speaker 1: word in the moment that they're sharing it. And why
Speaker 1: do you think there's like a shame around it around
Speaker 1: not being a parent? Yes, Like why do why do
Speaker 1: people put that on to well? I honestly think that
Speaker 1: for many people, the idea that parenthood is actually a
Speaker 1: choice is so foreign, I mean especially for girls. I
Speaker 1: mean think about walking down like the aisle of a
Speaker 1: toys are us and the boy's aisle versus the girl's aisle.
Speaker 1: We know that girls are taught from a very young
Speaker 1: age that a natural role for them is to become
Speaker 1: a mother. There that's expected, uh, and it's expected that
Speaker 1: they will feel riven to do that. So to challenge
Speaker 1: that idea, I think really for some people it gets
Speaker 1: to their core understanding of the way the world works,
Speaker 1: and so when you question that, it calls all kinds
Speaker 1: of things into question for them. Yeah. And I mean
Speaker 1: I also feel that sometimes people start saying, um, my
Speaker 1: life is more fulfilled because I have children than you,
Speaker 1: you know, that type of thing, and they're starting to
Speaker 1: put that on somebody which is their own, I mean,
Speaker 1: their own issues. I I guess, I just I'm trying
Speaker 1: to understand how we as a community can be more
Speaker 1: understanding and less judgmental. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the ideal,
Speaker 1: and that this is one of the things I addressed
Speaker 1: in my book that yes, it's true for many parents,
Speaker 1: having children maybe the most fulfilling thing for them, and
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, But that doesn't mean that there aren't other
Speaker 1: ways to find fulfillment. And there are many ways to
Speaker 1: leave a legacy to make a difference in the world
Speaker 1: and I think if we can get ourselves to understand
Speaker 1: that parenthood is one way to do that and an
Speaker 1: important way to do that, but not the only way
Speaker 1: to do it, will start to understand the child free
Speaker 1: choice a little bit better. And I mean I think also,
Speaker 1: something that you hear a lot is like, we decided
Speaker 1: to have a kid to save our marriage. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that how is that any better of a choice? You know? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you raise a good point. One thing I
Speaker 1: heard from many of the child free women and men
Speaker 1: I interviewed was that they recognize that parenthood is such
Speaker 1: an important role and takes so much effort that only
Speaker 1: people who truly want to do it, only people who
Speaker 1: are all in and going in eyes wide open, should
Speaker 1: be doing it because it's hard enough, and we shouldn't
Speaker 1: be having people do it for any other reason than
Speaker 1: that they want to do it. Yeah, I mean. And
Speaker 1: then also I've as I started reading, you know, different
Speaker 1: research and things like that, I've noticed that the reason
Speaker 1: that women kind of say they don't want is a
Speaker 1: little bit different than the men. The men's like I
Speaker 1: love to travel, I want to you know, I like
Speaker 1: to continue living this life, where a woman maybe like
Speaker 1: I just don't have that urge, And yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: One of the other differences I've found in my own
Speaker 1: research was that women are more likely to mention an
Speaker 1: interest in nurturing the relationships that they have at present.
Speaker 1: So often that's with a spouse or a partner. So
Speaker 1: many of the women that I interviewed said, you know,
Speaker 1: my relationship with my husband is so important to me
Speaker 1: that I don't want to have to give up time
Speaker 1: to that. I don't want to have to give up, um,
Speaker 1: all of the things that I do to nurture that connection.
Speaker 1: And and it was more often women than men that
Speaker 1: mentioned that. And do you think in the next ten
Speaker 1: years things will change, like will become more commonplace and
Speaker 1: more accepted to not want kids? I hope so. And
Speaker 1: if we look at the way that our culture has
Speaker 1: changed over the last forty years, I would say that
Speaker 1: that's the direction we're headed in. Um. I mean, if
Speaker 1: somebody proclaimed that they had opted out of parenthood forty
Speaker 1: or fifty years ago, the the societal reaction to that
Speaker 1: was much stronger than than it is today. So well,
Speaker 1: child free people still today get a lot of pushback,
Speaker 1: and there's certainly still a stigma associated with the choice.
Speaker 1: We're in a better place than we were decades ago,
Speaker 1: and so I have to believe, in part because I'm
Speaker 1: an optimist, that we will be in a better place
Speaker 1: in future decades. And I have a question. Are you
Speaker 1: in a relationship? I am. I'm going to celebrate my
Speaker 1: twenty five anniversary next month of congratulations, thank you. I mean,
Speaker 1: studies show that that child free women are the happiest
Speaker 1: group of people. Well, they do, but I will on
Speaker 1: one thing to note is that for parents happy, there's more.
Speaker 1: It's more of a roller coaster. Right. Well, I have
Speaker 1: a question. So, from the very beginning, was this a
Speaker 1: topic that you and your husband fully agreed on. Well,
Speaker 1: it's funny it was, but we both assumed that we
Speaker 1: would become parents. Um So. The choice not to become
Speaker 1: a parent was one that we made over time. And
Speaker 1: we got married pretty young. I was twenty two, he
Speaker 1: was twenty three. This was he was my high school sweetheart,
Speaker 1: um so, and I spent my whole teenage years babysitting,
Speaker 1: I nanny throughout college. So I really did think that
Speaker 1: I was destined for motherhood and my husband assumed the
Speaker 1: same thing. And then over the years, um for the
Speaker 1: first ten years or so of our marriage, I just
Speaker 1: kept saying, I'm too young, I'm too young, I'm too young,
Speaker 1: I'm not ready yet. And then by the time I
Speaker 1: hit my mid thirties, when friends of mine were becoming mothers,
Speaker 1: I realized, you know, I really don't think I want
Speaker 1: to become mother so but it definitely was a process,
Speaker 1: and my husband and I would check in with each
Speaker 1: other every few years, and neither of us that felt
Speaker 1: compelled at any point to do it. And then we
Speaker 1: finally just embraced the reality that that we liked our
Speaker 1: lives as it was as it was, and that we
Speaker 1: wanted to stay child free. And I mean, you guys
Speaker 1: are that that's great, because oftentimes that's not the case, right,
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I mean we we are really lucky,
Speaker 1: frankly that we came to the same place, because that's
Speaker 1: not always true for couples. And I do think this
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest deal breakers for couples because
Speaker 1: having kids is not something that you can compromise on.
Speaker 1: Either you have them or you don't. And what do
Speaker 1: you recommend to our listeners out there that don't want
Speaker 1: to have kids, but they're you know, in a newish relationship.
Speaker 1: It's not in their opinion. They don't even know if
Speaker 1: they're going to get married or what's going to happen next.
Speaker 1: So when do you think that conversation starts to happen.
Speaker 1: And also how do you get that person to actually
Speaker 1: believe you, because as I've heard, I've heard men all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, or women say I don't want kids,
Speaker 1: but like it's you know, ten years later they have
Speaker 1: three little ones. Well, this is a question that I
Speaker 1: get all the time from the child free people that
Speaker 1: I meet with and work with. And I think it's
Speaker 1: super important to be as honest as you can be
Speaker 1: from the from the very beginning. Um. And as I
Speaker 1: said earlier, taking people at their word is critical. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, do people change their minds Sometimes they do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But um, better to be honest from the beginning than
Speaker 1: than not. So I think the best way to head
Speaker 1: it off again is to talk about It might feel
Speaker 1: funny talking about having kids when you're newly dating a person, um,
Speaker 1: but I think it's a signal of your values and
Speaker 1: the life that you envisioned for yourself. And those are
Speaker 1: things that I think people at any stage of dating
Speaker 1: should be talking about and I have a question, do
Speaker 1: you think that this decision comes, you know, from a
Speaker 1: very very at a very young age, like to the
Speaker 1: point where like something may have happened, Like a friend
Speaker 1: of mine always says, people always ask me when I
Speaker 1: say I don't have kids, did something happen when you
Speaker 1: were younger? Do you have daddy issues? Like they started
Speaker 1: like going into this rabbit hole of trying to figure
Speaker 1: out and like diagnose why you've made this decision. Do
Speaker 1: you think there's anything that happens in you know, nurture
Speaker 1: that switches this um. The data don't indicate that that
Speaker 1: that's the case. I have to confess that that was
Speaker 1: the stereotype that I myself had of people who opt
Speaker 1: out of parenthood. So when I went when I started
Speaker 1: the research myself, I thought, Okay, I'm a special case
Speaker 1: because I had a great childhood. My parents were wonderful
Speaker 1: at their job, they're still married, but I must be unusual.
Speaker 1: And what I learned was actually, many child free people
Speaker 1: don't have kids because they understand what what a job
Speaker 1: it was for their parents and what it took for
Speaker 1: them to be good parents, and and you know, have
Speaker 1: decided they want to dedicate their attention and their lives
Speaker 1: to other causes. But um, there really isn't a lot
Speaker 1: of evidence to suggest that child free people are more
Speaker 1: likely to have had, you know, a terrible childhood than
Speaker 1: people who have children. So it is a stereotype, it's
Speaker 1: not supported. Yeah, And do you think if more Oftentimes
Speaker 1: when celebrities choose not to have children, they just don't
Speaker 1: talk about it. Do you think if it was more
Speaker 1: spoken about then it would become more accepted or do
Speaker 1: you think it would have any impact? Oh? I totally
Speaker 1: think it would have an impact. And yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: shout out to all of the celebrities who are child free,
Speaker 1: please talk about it because those who have have made
Speaker 1: such a difference. Not just to child free people, although
Speaker 1: seeing you know, seeing people in the public eye who
Speaker 1: are living lives of their choosing and and openly proclaiming
Speaker 1: their choices can be so gratifying um as a child
Speaker 1: free person, but also um opening up the conversation so
Speaker 1: that everybody understands that parenthood is and can be and
Speaker 1: should be a choice rather than a mandate. Um, I
Speaker 1: think we'll serve everybody well. So the more people who
Speaker 1: are in the public eye can be open about their choice,
Speaker 1: the better for everyone. Yeah, I mean you would think
Speaker 1: the fact that Oprah doesn't have kids would make it
Speaker 1: like a more I hate to use it the word
Speaker 1: in quotes acceptable thing because you know she's Oprah right exactly,
Speaker 1: But I agree with you. But I also think she
Speaker 1: has done a lot for the child free community by
Speaker 1: simply being open about her choice. Um, we get to
Speaker 1: see that. Oh yeah, even this amazingly successful, generous, kind,
Speaker 1: wonderful person. It's not a mother now. It's incredible. And
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us and giving
Speaker 1: us your information, like all of your research. It's it's
Speaker 1: been really helpful. So I appreciate at You're welcome. It's
Speaker 1: been fun. Thank you. All Right, talks in Okay, Okay, guys,
Speaker 1: we are back from our break. I wanted to get
Speaker 1: a millennials perspective, so we are going to get Mary
Speaker 1: on the phone and chat with her. Hi. Mary, thanks
Speaker 1: for taking the time to speak with us, of course.
Speaker 1: Um So I have a quick question for you in
Speaker 1: the younger generation and between you and your friends, do
Speaker 1: you think this is like a rising trend right now? Um?
Speaker 1: I don't know, if it's my I don't know about
Speaker 1: the younger generation. I'm thirty two, and all of our
Speaker 1: friends have kids, So I don't know if it's maybe
Speaker 1: um like now with like the millennials or younger kids,
Speaker 1: like maybe that's what's going on, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: For my group and my generation, I'm probably really one
Speaker 1: of the few that, um that we're not having kids.
Speaker 1: Are you married? Yes? Been married for five years? Been
Speaker 1: with each other for wow? And did you guys speak
Speaker 1: about it from the beginning? Um, it was never like
Speaker 1: to sit down conversation when we started dating. I think
Speaker 1: we were just both young and we're both kind of
Speaker 1: the babies of the family of both of our sides.
Speaker 1: Um that we kind of just like grew up, not
Speaker 1: like grew up together. But I was like twenty one
Speaker 1: or yeah, I'm twenty when we met, so we kind
Speaker 1: of both just feel the same way. And do you
Speaker 1: think that there was an actual reason why you decided
Speaker 1: not to have kids? Yeah, I think honestly, I think
Speaker 1: that kids are huge responsibility and I think, like watching
Speaker 1: everybody have kids, I feel like it takes like a
Speaker 1: really big toll on a lot of people's relationships. And
Speaker 1: to be honest, it might sound selfish, but like, I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed me in my husband's life. I like that
Speaker 1: we can go see a movie a Wednesday without like
Speaker 1: having the planet months before, and get a babysitter. I
Speaker 1: like just like picking up and we go to Newport
Speaker 1: and we can spend the night if we want. Like, Um,
Speaker 1: I just really enjoy that. So that's funny. That's actually
Speaker 1: the number we just had another specialist on and that
Speaker 1: was the number one reason she said it ends up happening. Um,
Speaker 1: do you think your husband feels exactly the same way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like. I mean we both I feel like
Speaker 1: we do. I mean we've talked about it. Obviously, it's
Speaker 1: not like an unspoken you know, but I yeah, I
Speaker 1: think he feels the same way. And we're both like
Speaker 1: he has brothers and I'm the baby of three sisters,
Speaker 1: and I feel like we both love being an aunt
Speaker 1: and uncle and we get to babysit them and spoil
Speaker 1: them and kind of take advantage of being a full
Speaker 1: aunts and uncle and then we get to do our
Speaker 1: own thing and travel and um, you know, not have
Speaker 1: that huge responsibility. That's such a good point because so
Speaker 1: often we think that because somebody doesn't want kids, that
Speaker 1: it means they don't being around kids, But really that's
Speaker 1: not the case at all. You love doing it, You
Speaker 1: love being an auntie, love doing all of those things.
Speaker 1: You just know for yourself, it's a personal decision. I
Speaker 1: we love. All of our friends have kids, and the
Speaker 1: kids come over all the time and we get to
Speaker 1: be like the fun aunt and uncle, and I love
Speaker 1: my nieces to death. I just don't personally, it's not
Speaker 1: for me, but I like love them. It doesn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think everyone thinks that just because you don't want kids,
Speaker 1: everyone thinks you hate kids. But it's not it at all.
Speaker 1: And how do your parents feel about it? I think
Speaker 1: I am actually in the clear because I have older siblings.
Speaker 1: I think it would be a lot harder if I
Speaker 1: was the only child. It would be a lot more pressure.
Speaker 1: But I think that they just know how we've We've
Speaker 1: been together for so long and it's not like a
Speaker 1: rash decision. It's just something. I think they get it now.
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot. It seems a lot harder
Speaker 1: raising kids today with social media and the phones, Like
Speaker 1: we didn't grow up like that. I didn't get a
Speaker 1: phone until I was driving at sixteen. So I think
Speaker 1: they get it their grandparents now right. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you feel like you get any pressure, any shame, or
Speaker 1: any of those types of things by friends or people
Speaker 1: that ask you, guys those questions or has it become
Speaker 1: more acceptable? I think in the beginning I did. Like
Speaker 1: when we got married at I was and no, none
Speaker 1: of our friends had kids yet, so we everyone was like, oh,
Speaker 1: are you gonna have They didn't understand it. But it's
Speaker 1: so crazy now that everyone has kids, nobody questions it, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're if you're not on board, don't do it right.
Speaker 1: It makes sense because it is so strange to me
Speaker 1: that people get a little weirded out by it and
Speaker 1: then they failed the need to start grilling and thinking
Speaker 1: it's something that happened in their path, you know, all
Speaker 1: of those things. Um. Yeah, And then so I have
Speaker 1: to ask on the grilling topic, what what would you
Speaker 1: do if your husband all of a sudden changed his
Speaker 1: mind or you changed your mind? Um? I mean obviously
Speaker 1: we would have it. We're like best friends and we
Speaker 1: would have a discussion about it. I wouldn't know exactly
Speaker 1: what would happen, but yeah, something obviously we would talk
Speaker 1: about and be open about because it is a really
Speaker 1: big topic and a really big responsibility that you used
Speaker 1: to think of everything around it. It's not just you
Speaker 1: have a kid and that's it. It's I just feel
Speaker 1: like everyone gets it. Seems like everyone. It's a tool
Speaker 1: on everyone because everyone's so tired, everyone's working. You have
Speaker 1: to make a certain amount of money now to take
Speaker 1: care of your family. So I would always have a
Speaker 1: conversation with him about it. I know, I think that
Speaker 1: you know. And there's also a whole group of people
Speaker 1: who it's you know, are okay with having kids, but
Speaker 1: are deathly afraid to get pregnant. And I mean so
Speaker 1: that just adds like a whole another dynamic to it. Um.
Speaker 1: I love hearing from you, and I hope that you
Speaker 1: My asking questions is really just because that's the nature
Speaker 1: of this podcast. We like to dig deep into all
Speaker 1: different you know, thought processes. So I just wanted to
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to talk with us.
Speaker 1: Of course, thank you so much. Bye. Okay, guys, we
Speaker 1: are back with Maxine Trump. I just watched her movie
Speaker 1: to Kid or Not two Kid, and I just think
Speaker 1: it's such an important message to be to get out there.
Speaker 1: And I thank you for joining us. It's lovely to
Speaker 1: be here. Thanks so much for having us. Can you
Speaker 1: explain a little bit to our listeners what led you
Speaker 1: to make this movie? You know, it's really interesting because
Speaker 1: only when I got to kind of the so called
Speaker 1: end of my biological child rearing opportunity, UM, did I
Speaker 1: really start thinking I have to make a decision about
Speaker 1: whether or not to have kids. It's never been something
Speaker 1: i'd really thought about. In the same way I hadn't
Speaker 1: really dreamt about the big white wedding. I hadn't dreamt
Speaker 1: about kind of a lot of my future. I just
Speaker 1: lived day by day. I was very much that kind
Speaker 1: of person where let's see where this day brings me,
Speaker 1: and what's the next adventure around the corner. And then
Speaker 1: I was realizing the more that people were asking me
Speaker 1: about my decision whether or not to have kids, I
Speaker 1: had to make a decision, and it started getting me
Speaker 1: kind of angry that I couldn't delay it like a
Speaker 1: lot of men, can, you know. Um. And then I
Speaker 1: was starting to look around and and try and look
Speaker 1: for things that could help me with this decision. And
Speaker 1: there was one shorter film out there, but and a
Speaker 1: few books, but This was back in and it really
Speaker 1: hadn't become the hot topic that it is now about
Speaker 1: deciding whether or not to have children. So I did
Speaker 1: what I do best, I guess, and picked up my
Speaker 1: camera and I didn't enter into making a personal film.
Speaker 1: I was just going to explore this subject. And then
Speaker 1: I'm part of this great filmmaking community in New York
Speaker 1: and I started showing test scenes to these groups and
Speaker 1: they were like, you're you're holding back, You're not being clear,
Speaker 1: and so that kind of turned the whole film around,
Speaker 1: and you started really leaning into it and talking about
Speaker 1: your fears and also the kind of the judgments that
Speaker 1: put on you. And a lot of what we saw
Speaker 1: in the film was kind of pressure from your mom almost,
Speaker 1: which I know is probably hard to talk about. But
Speaker 1: do you think that kind of started from a young
Speaker 1: a young age, or you know, do you think that's
Speaker 1: just something that happened once you started saying, you know, no,
Speaker 1: it's not something we want to do. You know, it's
Speaker 1: so interesting because my mom was pretty cool about it
Speaker 1: at the beginning, you know, years ago, when obviously I
Speaker 1: was at a different age. She said to me, you know,
Speaker 1: don't look at having kids through rose tinted spectacles. You know,
Speaker 1: she brought up three kids, she was a single mom
Speaker 1: for a chunk of time, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being like super honest with me.
Speaker 1: And then it kind of started shifting as I got
Speaker 1: when she realized you were serious. I think so right,
Speaker 1: um or or at least, I mean, we just didn't
Speaker 1: talk about it very often because I just wasn't bringing
Speaker 1: it up because I didn't need to write until I
Speaker 1: needed to or until people are asking me more. And
Speaker 1: she wanted to ask me more about my decisions. So
Speaker 1: it kind of shifted, and I think that does happen
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. You know, you get to
Speaker 1: an age where you know you're either maybe maybe in
Speaker 1: a committed relationship or you may be single and deciding
Speaker 1: what's your decision? And um, if you are single, are
Speaker 1: you going to then you know when is the best
Speaker 1: time or who do you go? And you know, Dore dregs,
Speaker 1: you do this not something you want to do. And
Speaker 1: I think that's so often confused, is do you not
Speaker 1: want to have kids? Or because of circumstances are you
Speaker 1: not having kids? And I think that our nature is
Speaker 1: to be inquisitive on that and not realizing what we're
Speaker 1: putting on to the people that are deciding that they
Speaker 1: don't want to have kids. You know. And I love
Speaker 1: your story too because I know you've had a journey
Speaker 1: as well, and I think, um, for my what I
Speaker 1: call my child less sisters and brothers, because it happens
Speaker 1: to men to you know, Um, it's really on my
Speaker 1: heart for them in a big way because if they're
Speaker 1: constantly getting asked, that's even worse than me getting constantly asked.
Speaker 1: You know, I was told from a young age it
Speaker 1: would be hard to have kids, but the door hadn't
Speaker 1: completely closed for me. But for people that are on
Speaker 1: that journey, I think it's really really difficult if they're
Speaker 1: asked all the time because where are they on that
Speaker 1: spectrum they could be at any point, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: So I was really delighted actually because PBS commissioned me
Speaker 1: to do this spinoff series. She's kind of amazing. I
Speaker 1: didn't really congratulations you so much because PBS as well
Speaker 1: aren't always notorious for being the most groundbreaking that works, right, Um,
Speaker 1: but we have this amazing spinoff series which has allowed
Speaker 1: me to explore the whole. Like I said, the spectrum
Speaker 1: of fertility or infertility or decision making. And we have
Speaker 1: these amazing episodes. We have one woman who's in her
Speaker 1: fifties trying to decide when she stops doing IVF and
Speaker 1: she's debating with a young woman who was a team
Speaker 1: mum and that it was an amazing episode. And we
Speaker 1: have a number of episodes where people, you know, we
Speaker 1: had a gay couple talking to young gay guy about saragaceine.
Speaker 1: And it's been really fascinating. I've learned actually a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot over the six years of making it,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine. So that was really exciting because
Speaker 1: you know, fundamentally the film, I didn't want it to
Speaker 1: be my own story, and we definitely explore other people's
Speaker 1: situations for sure. Like Megan. I mean, this is one
Speaker 1: that definitely, like just to kind of give the listeners backstory,
Speaker 1: Megan is struggling to get medical permission to undergo elective sterilization. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she is twenty five, right, and she's gone to
Speaker 1: like four different doctors fifth now, And I mean, the
Speaker 1: my question is in regard to this, what if she
Speaker 1: changed her mind? What if a doctor did agree to
Speaker 1: it and then she did change her mind. Is it
Speaker 1: the same as a vasectomy that you can have it reversed?
Speaker 1: You know, that's a question that a lot of young
Speaker 1: people when they are feeling certain about their decision, that
Speaker 1: they get asked, and they really appreciate um people that
Speaker 1: have gone before them that have shown that they haven't
Speaker 1: changed their mind. We've had, we have a lovely few
Speaker 1: characters in the film. One woman who's you know, in
Speaker 1: her older six, in her sixties now, and she actually
Speaker 1: lost her job when she came out about not having kids.
Speaker 1: And Megan looks at her and looks at me and
Speaker 1: looks at Laurel Carol. That's also in the film. People
Speaker 1: have gone before that proved that their minds aren't changed.
Speaker 1: But I did actually ask her because I did feel
Speaker 1: that that could have been one of the reasons doctors
Speaker 1: were using. And she said, listen, I'll go to therapy
Speaker 1: for as long as they want me to go to therapy.
Speaker 1: She's now five appointments later, she's almost five years later.
Speaker 1: Her husband. She was asked to bring in her husband
Speaker 1: to make sure her husband with sterilization. With her being sterilized,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, she's in charge of her own body,
Speaker 1: and she's not being taken seriously and that breaks my
Speaker 1: heart right and now that that was the one that
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, you know, it's unbelievable. And then
Speaker 1: kind of bringing it back to your story, Josh, your
Speaker 1: husband is in the studio with us, and I think
Speaker 1: what I got? Do you have you have kids already? Yes?
Speaker 1: With with with an X yes. So do you think
Speaker 1: that your conversations about you not wanting to have kids
Speaker 1: may have gone differently had you not? Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: that's a great question. And I think also because having kids,
Speaker 1: not having kids is such a huge thing, it's sort
Speaker 1: of impossible to say, oh, you know, yeah, if I
Speaker 1: didn't have kids, I would have thought X, y Z.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, you're sort of helpless, but
Speaker 1: to come from the perspective where you are in life.
Speaker 1: So I feel like it probably would have been a
Speaker 1: different conversation, you know, if I hadn't had kids. But
Speaker 1: I kind of empowerless to know how different or you know,
Speaker 1: how it would have gone differently because a lot of
Speaker 1: the people that had written in were saying that there,
Speaker 1: you know, and relationships where it's getting to the point
Speaker 1: where they're significant, other might propose or to the getting
Speaker 1: that point and they're scared to have that conversation or
Speaker 1: they've casually mentioned it and it's kind of brushed over.
Speaker 1: So it's like, how how do you really start to
Speaker 1: set that expectation so that you're not ten years, fifteen
Speaker 1: years into marriage and then all of a sudden, like
Speaker 1: you have to separate because you can't agree on this topic.
Speaker 1: Watch the film, honestly, I mean right, I mean that's
Speaker 1: really why I made the film, because I want this space,
Speaker 1: this kind of space for people where a the ice
Speaker 1: has now been broken because they've watched the film is
Speaker 1: a very very vulnerable kind of for me, cringe, cringe
Speaker 1: some of the scenes that have intimates it is now.
Speaker 1: But it's amazing that you're able to share yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: share your journey. But I think that there's so many
Speaker 1: people out there that are questioning themselves and then almost
Speaker 1: putting that that pressure from other people onto themselves or
Speaker 1: really feeling that pressure, you know, I've had in some ways.
Speaker 1: I've got to weigh lightly that it's only been a
Speaker 1: few people in my life. At one screening in Ohio,
Speaker 1: when we were so excited, we did three screenings in
Speaker 1: Ohio where they're trying to institute you know, these crazy
Speaker 1: abortion laws. And one young woman came up with her
Speaker 1: husband in floods of tears after a screening and said,
Speaker 1: I came here and I couldn't tell anyone I was
Speaker 1: coming to the screening, not one person. And I'm still
Speaker 1: getting chills when I think about it now, because I
Speaker 1: sort of feel like if if I've just made this
Speaker 1: film just for her, then I started film my works
Speaker 1: then I know, because the biggest thing is, you know,
Speaker 1: that we want is to not feel alone absolutely, and
Speaker 1: when we start feeling you know, ostracized in any way
Speaker 1: or that we're alone or that people don't understand, then
Speaker 1: we start putting our guards up and we're not living
Speaker 1: the life that we want to live anyway. Um. But
Speaker 1: another topic that's come up a bunch, especially in the
Speaker 1: younger generation that I've spoken to, is actually the fear
Speaker 1: of getting pregnant is why they don't want to have
Speaker 1: kids versus not actually wanting kids. Yeah. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: love that you're bringing this up right now. And I know,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's such a crazy topic for me,
Speaker 1: but I like have to listen to my listeners because
Speaker 1: I did it a big thing on infertility, and people,
Speaker 1: you know, really reached out afterwards and said, we want
Speaker 1: to hear the other side of it, Like we want
Speaker 1: to hear the other side because there, you know, we
Speaker 1: are out there getting questions constantly, and you know, I
Speaker 1: have said some things in the past that like I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that my phrasing could be hurtful to other people,
Speaker 1: you know, just speaking from my own personal I remember
Speaker 1: being at a place where like I was trying so
Speaker 1: hard to get pregnant that I put so much pressure
Speaker 1: on myself for and no one else was putting pressure
Speaker 1: on me, but I felt all this pressure like this
Speaker 1: is my job. And I said that, and people were furious,
Speaker 1: like how could you say this, you know, like what
Speaker 1: is wrong with you? You know, And really it was
Speaker 1: just my own like it's so personal and what your
Speaker 1: goal going through when it happens, you don't know until
Speaker 1: you're actually there. And that wasn't to judge anybody else.
Speaker 1: That was solely how I felt in that moment. And
Speaker 1: you know, but I have a girlfriend that's like, listen,
Speaker 1: I want to have kids, um, but I am scared
Speaker 1: one to carry a baby. And I'm scared too that
Speaker 1: I'm never going to meet somebody, you know, So it
Speaker 1: goes so many different levels that and then she goes,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm scared, and because of that, I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm meeting people because I'm so scared all the
Speaker 1: time that they're not going to be the one, and
Speaker 1: then I'm not gonna be able to have kids. So
Speaker 1: there's so many different levels to this, so many I
Speaker 1: think finding the language to talk about it, and I
Speaker 1: made mistakes too, I think a lot of people do,
Speaker 1: because I think for many years we didn't really know
Speaker 1: how to talk about not having kids or having kids
Speaker 1: or how we were having kids. And I think as
Speaker 1: we're seeing a rise in articles and podcasts, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's great because it's it's given us this opportunity
Speaker 1: to say, hey, did you did you hear that the
Speaker 1: other day? Or well let's talk about like oh, let
Speaker 1: me just play this clip from Teddy Show. You know. Um,
Speaker 1: it allows us really to be much more open about it.
Speaker 1: And I even felt like my shoulders go back a
Speaker 1: little bit more when I bring this subject up instead
Speaker 1: of kind of carrying in a corner. And you know, um,
Speaker 1: so it's exciting. Actually, I think it's another way of
Speaker 1: empowering women. Yeah, I think I think versus where we
Speaker 1: want to clam up and not say anything, even if
Speaker 1: we just share, as opposed to getting frustrated or angry
Speaker 1: when somebody asked, because sometimes somebody's just asking, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the specials earlier. Sometimes somebody's not asking because
Speaker 1: they're judging. They're just meeting you and they're trying to
Speaker 1: fill the conversation, so like they don't know what else
Speaker 1: to say, so like, so do you have kids? Oh?
Speaker 1: Why not? You know, there's just an open space and
Speaker 1: she goes. So you just can alter the conversation however
Speaker 1: you want. No, I don't, but you know what I
Speaker 1: love reading or Bob going skiing or what. You know,
Speaker 1: you just move the conversation along, or you you kind
Speaker 1: of dig into it if you're closer with that person
Speaker 1: and you want to actually have a deeper discussion about it.
Speaker 1: Because I do also think that in your head, you
Speaker 1: start to think, wow, if and I talked about this
Speaker 1: with an earlier guess too is if they don't want kids,
Speaker 1: maybe they don't like kids and putting that on somebody
Speaker 1: and and maybe they don't or maybe they do, maybe
Speaker 1: they love them. Yeah, but it's not ours to make
Speaker 1: that decision totally, and and not to make people feel abnormal,
Speaker 1: Like I think what you've just said, like, okay, that
Speaker 1: maybe the icebreaker, maybe like asking what the weather is
Speaker 1: going to be right today, and you're asking somebody if
Speaker 1: they have kids. But then don't go to that next
Speaker 1: level of either walking away climbing up the conversation, because
Speaker 1: there's been so many people that have been hurt by
Speaker 1: then the next question like, well, why have you decided
Speaker 1: to you know that's that's strange or that's odd, or
Speaker 1: you know, why do you not like kids? Or do
Speaker 1: you know? It's like the follow up question that can
Speaker 1: be really helpful. So I agree with you. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't mind if somebody says do you have kids
Speaker 1: or not? And I say, oh no, And as long
Speaker 1: as they leave it there, but it's asked me something else.
Speaker 1: Don't make me feel weird because I'm not weird because
Speaker 1: there's us is that? Is that the number? Okay? So
Speaker 1: good to know. Um gosh, well, I I do have
Speaker 1: to tell you, guys, you've got to watch this movie,
Speaker 1: especially if you're in a place where you just want
Speaker 1: to be understood. There's so many different amazing women and
Speaker 1: men in the movie who um are just being open
Speaker 1: and honest about their journey. And truthfully, I think, regardless
Speaker 1: if you want kids, don't want kids, can't have kids,
Speaker 1: change your mind about kids, whatever it is you are,
Speaker 1: you're not alone, and you know what it's whatever ends
Speaker 1: up happening, and whatever you want, it's okay, and you
Speaker 1: know what, the people that love you will understand and
Speaker 1: you might benefit from the different decision making like I'm
Speaker 1: sure you have. I mean, my sister has three kids
Speaker 1: and benefits from the fact I didn't have kids, like
Speaker 1: and yeah, mutually symbiotic relations and if you can start
Speaker 1: to also at certain points not take everything so seriously
Speaker 1: so you can't start to, like, you know, laugh and
Speaker 1: have fun and enjoy the circumstances a little bit. I remember,
Speaker 1: even when it came to my infertility stuff, I took
Speaker 1: everything so personal that I alienated myself from my friends
Speaker 1: and family because I didn't want them to know how
Speaker 1: much I was struggling, and then that just made me
Speaker 1: feel more alone. And I think the same can go
Speaker 1: for if you're so worried about people asking you the
Speaker 1: question about if you want kids or not, that then
Speaker 1: you shut out the people in your life instead of
Speaker 1: having the conversation, and then they don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: and then they asked the uncomfortable questions because they're kind
Speaker 1: of backed into a corner. Yeah, but I'm made please
Speaker 1: you brought that up about your own journey and sort
Speaker 1: of alienating because I think we have to be careful
Speaker 1: about the words we use as well, Like I will
Speaker 1: never there's you know, there can be terms that I
Speaker 1: think are unhelpful um on the people when people decide
Speaker 1: not to have kids as well because they've been so hurt.
Speaker 1: You know, there's terms like reader and things like which
Speaker 1: I all mumbies and I do not sign up to
Speaker 1: that in any way. And I think what we've really
Speaker 1: tried to do in the film is really be inclusive,
Speaker 1: as inclusive as possible. And you bring up humor. There's
Speaker 1: definitely moments in the film for sure, right because like
Speaker 1: you say, like let's let's release some of this tension
Speaker 1: because all that heaviness, like what is it gonna do?
Speaker 1: You're gonna explode and you're probably gonna explode on the
Speaker 1: wrong person about the wrong thing. Um, But I you know,
Speaker 1: I want the listen. I encourage the listeners to watch
Speaker 1: the movie, but also keep asking us these questions, keep
Speaker 1: keep putting it out there, because the more that we
Speaker 1: all talk about it, the more that we're all educating
Speaker 1: ourselves on the way to talk about it so that
Speaker 1: we're not hurting the people in our lives, we're supporting them.
Speaker 1: So um, thanks you guys so much for coming in.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thanks, thank you guys so much
Speaker 1: for tuning in to another week of Teddy Tea pod.
Speaker 1: I loved exploring the other side of this and what
Speaker 1: great guests we had and listeners, please keep sending us
Speaker 1: in things you want us to talk about. We love
Speaker 1: it and we want to get some of your answers answered,
Speaker 1: So send an email into Teddy t at I heart
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Thanks for listening, Subscribe to tradio or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts.