Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 1: Chris Harrison coming to you from the home office here
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas, and I am so excited about today's
Speaker 1: episode because it's a subject that was, well, it was
Speaker 1: entrenched in my life for what nineteen or twenty years.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about reality show villains. I have some of
Speaker 1: the most legendary reality show villains joining me on the
Speaker 1: show today. The reason I wanted to dive into this
Speaker 1: is because I was always so fascinated with villains, the
Speaker 1: quote unquote villains that came on The Bachelor in Baccheorette
Speaker 1: that ended up becoming villains. Why and who were they
Speaker 1: really villains? Did they just rub people the wrong way?
Speaker 1: Were they just kind of misconceived by the fans? How
Speaker 1: did they see themselves? Was it the producers, was it editing?
Speaker 1: Or really? Was it just their personality that drove this.
Speaker 1: It's something in a subject matter that I have thought
Speaker 1: about intimately for so long, and so I thought, let's
Speaker 1: do an entire show just with the greatest villains of
Speaker 1: all time. And we're going to talk to Richard Hatch
Speaker 1: from Survivor, one of the biggest Villains from Bacher Bacherette World,
Speaker 1: Courtney Robertson from Ben Flanneck Season How She Stirred Up
Speaker 1: the Waters, and Kelly Dodd from the Real Housewives of
Speaker 1: Orange County. That's who's joining me on the show today. So,
Speaker 1: as I said, we have, I mean the greatest hits
Speaker 1: of villains, but I want to start with a guy
Speaker 1: who I was a huge fan of because I was
Speaker 1: a huge Survivor fan, Richard Hatch back in two thousand
Speaker 1: he became Survivor's first winner in the debut season. It
Speaker 1: was the way he played the game that really caught
Speaker 1: my attention because at the end of the day he won,
Speaker 1: He outplayed everybody and survived and became that first Survivor champion.
Speaker 1: So that is where we will start this villain episode.
Speaker 1: Joining me now really the og villain in all of
Speaker 1: reality TV. I mean, maybe you can go back to
Speaker 1: the MTV days, but Richard Hatch, you are synonymous with
Speaker 1: being a villain on reality TV. And I by the way,
Speaker 1: I do not mean that in a bad way at all,
Speaker 1: because the other thing I will say is I'm a fan.
Speaker 1: I was a fan of Survivor when it came out
Speaker 1: in two thousand and when you were doing it and
Speaker 1: you won, followed you and all the other reality shows.
Speaker 1: So huge fan of how you handled yourself.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks very much, Chris. I liked everything
Speaker 2: except the O in the og.
Speaker 1: Hey. Well, yeah, I know. I'm right there with you, Pal,
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you.
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 1: I mean, is it stunning to think back? That was
Speaker 1: two thousand, man, that was twenty three years ago?
Speaker 2: Twenty three years ago?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know. I remember I was had not started the
Speaker 1: Battery yet, but I had gotten the job, and I
Speaker 1: was doing a charity thing and you may have been
Speaker 1: there because Jeff Probst was there. We did a celebrity
Speaker 1: dodgeball event. Oh they had a Survivor team and I
Speaker 1: remember going up to Probes and asking, so, I'm doing
Speaker 1: this reality show? What is this? What is this genre?
Speaker 1: And He's like, all I can say is, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to figure it out. Like you know, Survivor is
Speaker 1: a different animal. You're gonna have to kind of figure
Speaker 1: out your own kind of path. And it was actually
Speaker 1: great advice.
Speaker 2: Well, it took him a lot longer to figure it
Speaker 2: out than he admits. Now let me tell you.
Speaker 1: Well, we all like to look back and revisions. History
Speaker 1: is wonderful, isn't it. But you became known that first
Speaker 1: season as this, you know, kind of brilliant game player
Speaker 1: and schemer. But also I think it's fair to say
Speaker 1: you were also known as a villain. Did you feel that?
Speaker 1: And when did you feel it?
Speaker 2: I could answer really light and silly, but I'll just
Speaker 2: briefly answer a little bit more seriously. So I played,
Speaker 2: and I thought I played really, really well. I was
Speaker 2: so proud of myself and imagined viewers watching and thought, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to go back to.
Speaker 1: Ye hero's welcome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, how did he do that? How do you
Speaker 2: figure it? Et cetera. And although I did, and there
Speaker 2: are throngs of fans who still communicate with me now, thankfully,
Speaker 2: it really altered my life in a way that I
Speaker 2: hadn't been prepared for. So that whole villain thing isn't
Speaker 2: as simple and superficial as one might think. A big
Speaker 2: part of the villain label for me had to do
Speaker 2: with being naked, gay, and atheists. You know, those things
Speaker 2: combined really made for a very serious villainous thing that
Speaker 2: allowed prosecutors and others to really pounce in a way
Speaker 2: that they felt able to do. Yeah, terrible, But I
Speaker 2: love the game and the flip side of that. If
Speaker 2: I set aside real life and the actual homophobia that
Speaker 2: was behind, it has been fascinating and fun and amazing.
Speaker 2: And people now get it. Even during COVID, you know,
Speaker 2: new fans are like, wow, they told me you were
Speaker 2: a villain. Oh my god, how did you do that?
Speaker 2: It's pretty exciting.
Speaker 1: Your situation is so different because it was a true game.
Speaker 1: You played it masterfully and you won, and people didn't
Speaker 1: understand that. And I don't know if that exacerbated it,
Speaker 1: like damn this guy even more, or because it may
Speaker 1: have been the rules Outlast outplay.
Speaker 2: People did not understand the rules. Even the players didn't
Speaker 2: understand the rules, most of them. But when we got out.
Speaker 2: Rosie O'Donnell, for example, had all of us on her show.
Speaker 2: She gave she loved the show. She was a crazy fan,
Speaker 2: hated me because of the villain thing she perceived, didn't
Speaker 2: understand the rules. She gave everyone a car on air
Speaker 2: and gave me a box of rice. No loved it.
Speaker 2: She was looking to be, you know, to shame me,
Speaker 2: and but but you know, that's that's the type of
Speaker 2: reaction I got from many, many, many folks.
Speaker 1: How crazy, How hard was that for you? You know,
Speaker 1: you came back into the real world and you were
Speaker 1: expecting one thing, you got another, and you had to
Speaker 1: deal with that. That was part of your life and
Speaker 1: you were it was a huge part of your life
Speaker 1: because I mean, I remember the press you got and
Speaker 1: this is before social media.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but it extended into social media. But but
Speaker 2: but sure, yeah, so it was challenging, is what I'll say. Listen,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do the woe as me thing.
Speaker 2: It's been really, really rough, but I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 2: I learned a lot, and it was interesting to me
Speaker 2: to recognize what folks who really face prejudices, et cetera,
Speaker 2: go through. You know, even growing up gay, I had
Speaker 2: to kind of figure out who I was early on,
Speaker 2: But I still didn't face the kind of difficulties that
Speaker 2: I know so many people do. And now now I've
Speaker 2: faced them and understand how how challenging it is.
Speaker 1: You went you went on to use this very well.
Speaker 1: Just you did another didn't you do another season Survivor again?
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure?
Speaker 1: And then there was The Apprentice. I think you did
Speaker 1: the Biggest Loser, so I mean you were able to
Speaker 1: kind of start milking this as producers and people were like, hey,
Speaker 1: this guy is great TV.
Speaker 2: Yeah I did. I did quite a few shows thereafter,
Speaker 2: but it was it wasn't my goal. You know, so
Speaker 2: many people on the show are on there to get famous,
Speaker 2: to get known. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the fun.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed doing and interacting. But I'm a kind of
Speaker 2: a serious fella. I'm trying to do a podcast now
Speaker 2: called Reality Matters, meaning reality What's True Matters, And I'm
Speaker 2: I'm really discouraged by the way in which we seem
Speaker 2: to be shifting away from that.
Speaker 1: Well what was what was true for you? You know,
Speaker 1: because again, Survivor's very different because it is a game,
Speaker 1: and therefore, just for people that are listening, that means
Speaker 1: there's standards and practices. That means if there's money on
Speaker 1: the line, there are lawyers, and there's certain things producers
Speaker 1: can and can't do and say because there's money on
Speaker 1: the line. But do you feel like you were portrayed
Speaker 1: as Richard Hatch? Do you know, do you feel like
Speaker 1: the editing was fair to you?
Speaker 2: Wow? Chris, I don't know if you're you know, you
Speaker 2: have behind the scenes knowledge or you're just shooting in
Speaker 2: the wind. This isn't something most many folks know about.
Speaker 2: But you know, you say there are standards and practices.
Speaker 2: This was the first reality show this on a major network. Yes, MTV,
Speaker 2: like you said before that with Real World, but this
Speaker 2: was the first. So they did not even have a
Speaker 2: representative of standards and practices on set. Now and I
Speaker 2: caught them cheating. They were feeding Kelly, another participant. She
Speaker 2: was she won five challenges in a row. At the end,
Speaker 2: I shut down production. I mean, this really real life
Speaker 2: became a very very difficult situation. You know, while we
Speaker 2: were filming, we were hell yeah, crazy, no standards and
Speaker 2: practices know anything. It was the wild West.
Speaker 1: That is well, because I mean I've hosted you know,
Speaker 1: who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I hosted the game
Speaker 1: show for quite some time. And even when we did
Speaker 1: Bachelor there before we did Paradise, we did this other
Speaker 1: show where there was money on the line. There was
Speaker 1: kind of this prisoner's dilemma again, standards and practices. It
Speaker 1: was like, this is a game show and there's certain
Speaker 1: things you have to stay between you know, these navigational
Speaker 1: beacons to keep it fair. I have never heard that
Speaker 1: story that you caught them cheating and shut down production.
Speaker 1: That is shocking.
Speaker 2: I really wish it were. They were there. But even
Speaker 2: one of the executive producers held himself out after this,
Speaker 2: as I'm the representative of standards and practices.
Speaker 1: He said, I'm like, oh God, then how come you're
Speaker 1: giving Kelly a hamburger?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, you know, they could claim they He himself
Speaker 2: may not have known. I don't know, but there were
Speaker 2: a number well whatever, but watched it. I saw it.
Speaker 2: I stopped it.
Speaker 1: Good for you, by the way, because most people would
Speaker 1: not have the wherewithal and the confidence to do that.
Speaker 2: Thirty nine days, I lost forty two pounds watching him
Speaker 2: give her the food, the chocolate bar, then finding her
Speaker 2: peanut butter and everything. I was losing my mind.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 1: By the way, the Survivor diet's still the all time greatest.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy.
Speaker 1: So it worked, and obviously none of that comes out,
Speaker 1: you know, as you're going back to the reunions and
Speaker 1: all that. It was hush hush, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was hush hush, you know. In the in the
Speaker 2: ten year reunion because so many things happened to me
Speaker 2: as a result of being such a public figure before
Speaker 2: fifty four million viewers. You know, Mark Burnett came up
Speaker 2: and he said, listen, I'm so sorry this happened and
Speaker 2: that happened, and let me know if there's anything I
Speaker 2: can do to help, and it's it's it's fascinating to
Speaker 2: me because people like him in those kinds of positions
Speaker 2: of power now, with wealth beyond what most people could
Speaker 2: imagine and power that goes with that, you know, hasn't
Speaker 2: been there to support the participants afterwards. And that's something
Speaker 2: reality participants ought to know. You know. I've got to
Speaker 2: give Mark credit because he talked to me in the
Speaker 2: early stages when he was selecting me about putting a
Speaker 2: gay person on there and that he wanted a certain representation.
Speaker 2: But the follow through just wasn't there. He could have
Speaker 2: should have known the consequence and what real world I
Speaker 2: might have faced.
Speaker 1: The ramifications of all this. Yeah. With that said, what
Speaker 1: would your advice be to those that are still you know,
Speaker 1: getting in the game, and whether it's survivor whether it's
Speaker 1: you know, a million other shows that exist now.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing is I've always said to folks, you know,
Speaker 2: don't go on these shows to figure out who you are.
Speaker 2: Do that ahead of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 4: You don't have.
Speaker 2: Time while you're in there to figure out who you are,
Speaker 2: and you're not going to be liked by a certain
Speaker 2: segment of society, so get good with that. I was
Speaker 2: pretty comfortable with that in my mind until I realized
Speaker 2: that those people in power might be the ones who
Speaker 2: don't like you, and they can impact your life. They
Speaker 2: can devastate it. So you do have to think about
Speaker 2: the consequence. Oh you should if.
Speaker 1: Don't go in there thinking that you are going to
Speaker 1: be the Captain America that everybody just falls in love
Speaker 1: with and the heront nine percent of the time that's
Speaker 1: not going to be you.
Speaker 2: Correct. You'll have a good amount of people who will
Speaker 2: back you, You'll have followers who understand you, but you
Speaker 2: could have far more people who don't. And particularly in
Speaker 2: social media and particularly with younger folks, it can really
Speaker 2: affect your psyche. It can get to you if you
Speaker 2: haven't figured out who you are yet. So it's challenging.
Speaker 1: Would you do it all again?
Speaker 2: I would go again because I love the game, and
Speaker 2: even when I went the first time at thirty eight,
Speaker 2: I knew who I was. I know who I am.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm comfortable with that. I've figured that out,
Speaker 2: so I would do it well, Richard.
Speaker 1: I tell you what, I have always been a fan
Speaker 1: from day one a Survivor because I love the show.
Speaker 1: Was I love it when it was Eco Challenge, when
Speaker 1: Burnett was doing that, and then when it became Survivor,
Speaker 1: I was so into it. And when you turn the
Speaker 1: game on its head the way you did, I was
Speaker 1: in the camp of Holy Cow. This guy is good,
Speaker 1: Like damn, he's good.
Speaker 2: It's really kind of you.
Speaker 1: So I've always appreciated all the iterations, all the shows
Speaker 1: you've done, and so I'm glad we had a chance
Speaker 1: to talk today.
Speaker 2: Why didn't I get pulled onto Bachelor Paradise to tempt
Speaker 2: the guys?
Speaker 1: That would have been a good twist. He's got the
Speaker 1: villain thing going, man, Chris Richard Hatch, appreciate it, buddy,
Speaker 1: have a good one. My thanks to Richard Hatch after
Speaker 1: talking to him, an even bigger fan to think about. Also,
Speaker 1: it's very interesting to shed light on, you know, being
Speaker 1: a gay man and atheist and all those things that
Speaker 1: he carried into that season. Thank goodness, he was confident,
Speaker 1: knew who he was and was able to withstand the
Speaker 1: pressure that he got from outside the show. But was
Speaker 1: it just me or did anybody fall out of their
Speaker 1: chair like I did when he said he shut down
Speaker 1: production on Survivor because he caught the producers cheating. He
Speaker 1: caught the producers of Survivor feeding Kelly on season one
Speaker 1: and he shut it down until they fixed it. That
Speaker 1: is jaw dropping. I have never heard that story, and
Speaker 1: that just blew me away. So I think, to my
Speaker 1: thanks to Richard Hatch for coming on the show, but
Speaker 1: for that bombshell of a story about Survivor that I
Speaker 1: didn't know about. I hope you didn't either. Up next
Speaker 1: is a very dear friend of mine. So Cordy Robertson
Speaker 1: was a contestant on the sixteenth season of The Bachelor.
Speaker 1: That was been flantic season if you remember. The winemaker
Speaker 1: from San Francisco. Courtney quickly became one of the biggest
Speaker 1: villains in the history of our franchise. She was unapologetically
Speaker 1: after Ben Flannick, who she really did love and fell
Speaker 1: in love with, but again, she really rubbed people the
Speaker 1: wrong way. And became one of the biggest villains in
Speaker 1: our franchise history. Joining me now, very dear friend, Courtney Robertson.
Speaker 1: I was going to say old friend, but I didn't
Speaker 1: want to say you're old at all because I am
Speaker 1: much older. So just I'm going to say, very good friend,
Speaker 1: Courtney Robertson. How you doing.
Speaker 6: Hey, I'm doing super duper. Actually, it's good to see you.
Speaker 3: I was going to call you my old friend.
Speaker 1: Definitely, you can definitely call me your old friend because
Speaker 1: I have you by many, many years. Where are you
Speaker 1: now because you're not in Los Angeles?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I was in LA for about fourteen years
Speaker 6: and I moved back to Arizona, my hometown, about.
Speaker 3: Six years ago.
Speaker 1: Because you're married to kids now, yeah.
Speaker 3: Lots happened.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I've got two kids. Today was actually the
Speaker 6: This week is the first week. They both went to preschool.
Speaker 1: So I'm like free, that a wonderful thing. So they wait,
Speaker 1: they're both headed your pre school. So were talking four
Speaker 1: or five years old.
Speaker 6: We got three and eighteen months, and I have a boy.
Speaker 6: My boys three turning three, and my daughter's eighteen months
Speaker 6: Poloma and she is a mini me and she he is.
Speaker 1: Real sassy, She's got an attitude.
Speaker 3: She's got an attitude. Yeah, oh yeah, she.
Speaker 1: Will grow up to be an amazing villain on reality TV.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know, maybe someday. I talked to Ashley. I'm like, man,
Speaker 6: we gotta get our babies together. Her little baby is
Speaker 6: so cute.
Speaker 1: Ashley Dawson. Yeah, Ashley and Conetti, Ashley and Jared. We
Speaker 1: just saw them here in Austin. Ashley came in town
Speaker 1: with Ben Higgins and had dinner and she showed me
Speaker 1: videos of her and Dawson. I mean, the cutest, cutest kid.
Speaker 1: Poloma would do well to hook up with Dawson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, let's have a playdate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe some day arranged. Weird Bachelor kids getting together,
Speaker 1: that's a whole other show. But we have enough kids now,
Speaker 1: isn't that weird? Before we get into everything we want
Speaker 1: to talk about, it is amazing to me and wonderful
Speaker 1: when I see you, Ashley, Jade and Tanner, Tristan, right,
Speaker 1: you name it. We have so many babies, and they're
Speaker 1: not all Bachelor babies that were made from the show
Speaker 1: and relationships from the show, but just the same watching
Speaker 1: everybody grow up and have babies and kind of complete
Speaker 1: the full circle of their lives is really wonderful.
Speaker 3: It's got to be a trip for you. I mean
Speaker 3: we met gosh over ten years ago, Yeah it was.
Speaker 3: It feels good to me to be like.
Speaker 6: So far moved, like because it took me a lot
Speaker 6: of time to get my life kind of just to
Speaker 6: feeling normal.
Speaker 3: Like what feels normal to me?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: But yeah, it is wild.
Speaker 6: And you were there for like the journey, like and
Speaker 6: you've watched it all unfold. And I met your kids
Speaker 6: when they were little, and then I see them going
Speaker 6: off to college and I'm like.
Speaker 3: What, it's wild, And you're right, are you an empty
Speaker 3: nester now?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean while they boomerang, they do come home
Speaker 1: for summer break, which is really weird because now instead
Speaker 1: of just kids, I have these adults living with me.
Speaker 1: They really don't want to be here, Lauren and I
Speaker 1: really don't want to know. We do love it when
Speaker 1: they're here. It's that good kind of noise. And I
Speaker 1: realize they this is my son's last summer at home.
Speaker 1: He's about to graduate, he's going into senior year. And
Speaker 1: you know, with my daughter, I get like two or
Speaker 1: three more summers and that's it. So I'm grasping onto
Speaker 1: it as hard as I can and favor You're right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you ten years ago and you were able
Speaker 1: to remove yourself. I kind of had this dazed and
Speaker 1: confused version of the show where people would step off
Speaker 1: the merry go round, but I stayed and I would
Speaker 1: get to know the next group, and so I never
Speaker 1: really left. And so I'm kind of where you were
Speaker 1: about two years removed now and it feels good and
Speaker 1: I feel like, finally I have a little distance between
Speaker 1: me and the show and I can kind of let
Speaker 1: my guard down a little bit.
Speaker 6: It takes time, it's you know, and then it sometimes
Speaker 6: it flares back up.
Speaker 3: You know, started a podcast.
Speaker 6: And you dive back in, and I did to use
Speaker 6: the word triggered, but you know, you kind of can
Speaker 6: tap back into that time, and I'm sure you have
Speaker 6: fond memories.
Speaker 3: I mean, how long did you host the show.
Speaker 1: I was nineteen years, a little over nineteen years. We
Speaker 1: were about to celebrate the twentieth anniversary when I left,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean it's the wonderful times there was amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, even look back at your season with Ben
Speaker 1: Flam we traveled the world.
Speaker 3: We were, you know, we were in Zermatt.
Speaker 1: Zermatt, Switzerland, underneath the Matterhorn. I skied up Switzerland and
Speaker 1: down into Italy and had lunch. And we were in Belize,
Speaker 1: where I brought my kids. We were fishing and diving
Speaker 1: with sharks. So it was an unbelievable season. We're was
Speaker 1: that season? Did we go to viek Uh No? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Was it Viekis?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: In Puerto Rico? Oh, you know what happened in Porto right.
Speaker 1: Now, that's where the infamous skinny dip took place?
Speaker 3: Op see poop see.
Speaker 1: What do you remember about the infamous skinny dipping incident
Speaker 1: with Ben Flannik?
Speaker 6: So I remember being at the end of the was
Speaker 6: it the Puerto Rico baseball date, and it was like
Speaker 6: the cocktail party, like the losing team went home boohoo.
Speaker 6: And then we got to like the night portion of
Speaker 6: the cocktail party, and we were sitting in like a
Speaker 6: little guzzy bow talking and the girls were over here,
Speaker 6: and I was like, gosh, I would love to go
Speaker 6: skanping right now, and He's like, I'll do it, let's go,
Speaker 6: And I was like, no, Like these girls are going
Speaker 6: to kill me and anyway, I was like, well, maybe
Speaker 6: another time, and he's like, well, I think my date's
Speaker 6: going to end early tomorrow, wink wink. If you want
Speaker 6: to you know, if you want to do it then
Speaker 6: So I was like, I think people didn't see that obviously,
Speaker 6: So I thought this was like a plan. And then
Speaker 6: so like I'm getting ready, I'm in my robe and
Speaker 6: like they're like okay, like it's time to go. And
Speaker 6: then I showed up to his door like I'm ready,
Speaker 6: I have like a wine glass, I'm in my robe,
Speaker 6: and he looks at me kind of like shocked, like
Speaker 6: I don't know, like if he was expecting it, if you.
Speaker 3: Thought it was a joke.
Speaker 6: So then we did it and in the time, and
Speaker 6: I know people say this it's so cliche, like you
Speaker 6: kind of do forget you're filming a television show, and
Speaker 6: I just I knew I would get extra time with
Speaker 6: him and that there wouldn't be audio. Water and mics don't.
Speaker 1: Mix right exactly.
Speaker 3: I did have a little bit of an ulterior motive.
Speaker 1: And what the producers are you or ben me?
Speaker 4: I did?
Speaker 6: I wanted to like talk to him off camera, and
Speaker 6: that was the close but it was on.
Speaker 1: Camera and that was really the closer though. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, say what you will about that moment. That's
Speaker 1: what sealed the deal. No pun intended it.
Speaker 3: Kind of did. It was kind of did.
Speaker 6: But he told me out there like you know, you're
Speaker 6: the one, and now I kind of have to go
Speaker 6: through the motions and and you I remember this was
Speaker 6: like pretty early on. It really was I and I
Speaker 6: was like considering I was always threatening to me, and
Speaker 6: like I just needed some reassurance.
Speaker 3: So I was like, Okay, I guess we're going to
Speaker 3: do this.
Speaker 1: I found you very interesting and I am having a
Speaker 1: few other quote unquote villains, and I use air quotes
Speaker 1: from reality shows. You are the only bachelor bachelorette person
Speaker 1: because I specifically remember your situation so well and thought
Speaker 1: about it so much. Of why you again, and to
Speaker 1: use the word that is overused today, triggered the other
Speaker 1: women so much right in your mind before the skinny
Speaker 1: dipping incident, because you were not loved in the house
Speaker 1: before then, What was it like? Why now that you've
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to think back, what was it
Speaker 1: that set them off?
Speaker 3: I think it was a trifecta.
Speaker 6: Really, I think the show airing and then seeing what
Speaker 6: I was saying in my interviews, I got too comfortable
Speaker 6: with producers, and towards the end of the show, I realized,
Speaker 6: like I don't have to answer that or I don't
Speaker 6: have to say that again. So but it was too late,
Speaker 6: like the writing was already on the wall for me,
Speaker 6: but for me like, I mean, there's two things that.
Speaker 3: I want to say.
Speaker 6: There's so much flooding into me, like I say, I
Speaker 6: have to kind of like tap back into it. But
Speaker 6: like night one, I remember talking to kcy B, the
Speaker 6: sweetest girl right, and I was like.
Speaker 3: This is obviously an au natural situation. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: so what do you do for work?
Speaker 6: And I was like trying to connect with her and
Speaker 6: she's like, I'm not going to tell you that, like
Speaker 6: and it just like I had my interactions that didn't
Speaker 6: go well, but they didn't show that right, and so
Speaker 6: I just got very like overwhelmed. I was constantly in
Speaker 6: interviews they were like, oh, she's gold, let's.
Speaker 3: Bring her in.
Speaker 6: So I was kind of not around as much and
Speaker 6: I think the girls took it kind of personally. And
Speaker 6: then I had Casey, Shemer my best friend who went
Speaker 6: on to Data Law and on my podcast recently, and
Speaker 6: it was kind of nice refreshing to hear her perspective
Speaker 6: because she was like best friends with everyone in the house,
Speaker 6: and she's like, you know, she was telling me, like,
Speaker 6: they're all talking badly about you. Producers were telling me Courtney,
Speaker 6: people are saying bad things about you, like you kind
Speaker 6: of need to start doing it or you're gonna look bad.
Speaker 6: So there was just so much and I was also
Speaker 6: falling for him.
Speaker 3: Truly.
Speaker 6: My only reason I did the show is because I
Speaker 6: saw him on Ashley season and I was like wine Maker.
Speaker 3: You know, I dated.
Speaker 6: Celebrities, and I really thought, like, this guy seems like
Speaker 6: a catchy, so normal.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if I answered your question.
Speaker 1: Tell me if this is a wild theory. This is
Speaker 1: one theory that I've had, and I want to ask
Speaker 1: your opinion because you were a very successful model coming
Speaker 1: into the show. Extremely gorgeous you are, and I remember
Speaker 1: night one you are very striking, so you make an entrance.
Speaker 1: Do you think that along with the attitude. I think
Speaker 1: models have having gotten to know some and I even
Speaker 1: dated this kind of killer be killed attitude when you're
Speaker 1: a model, when you walk in and there's twenty fifty
Speaker 1: however many other beautiful women, and everybody's shooting daggers, and
Speaker 1: it's like, before you come at me, I'm going to
Speaker 1: come at you. Do you feel like you maybe brought
Speaker 1: that attitude to the show, like this is a competition,
Speaker 1: just like I'm on the runway and I'm going to win.
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent. That was one percent. Yeah I did.
Speaker 3: My dad always says that.
Speaker 6: He said, Courtney, you know, you had a leg up
Speaker 6: on everybody. I had walked into casting rooms where girls
Speaker 6: are sizing up. You walk into a callback for commercial
Speaker 6: and let me tell you, fifty girls are sitting there
Speaker 6: and they look like you, So you kind of this.
Speaker 6: I had confidence, and I know Ben has said that
Speaker 6: about me and that that really attracted him to me.
Speaker 3: And then slowly throughout the season.
Speaker 6: It kind of started like we're the volume went down
Speaker 6: on my confidence. But I think there is the ego
Speaker 6: part of it as well, you know, like, yeah, I
Speaker 6: want to win the first time. That's why I'm here,
Speaker 6: Like I'm here to win, and you know, because I
Speaker 6: really liked him so for the right reasons. But then
Speaker 6: the girls just, you know, something I wanted to touch
Speaker 6: on I won't say the name, but what didn't air?
Speaker 6: And I wanted to talk to you about the Women
Speaker 6: Tell All because I was one of the only ones
Speaker 6: to go into.
Speaker 3: That hot seat with you.
Speaker 6: But you know, one of the girls kept calling me
Speaker 6: AUTI stick on camera and they would never air that.
Speaker 6: They didn't air it, and I thought that that was
Speaker 6: how the narrative was going to play out, like so
Speaker 6: you'd see this this beef and this confrontation and it
Speaker 6: didn't air out that way like it aired like people
Speaker 6: assumed she was just calling me like the B word.
Speaker 3: So that was like, really, like what made me dislike
Speaker 3: this girl?
Speaker 6: And I just had to touch on that because I
Speaker 6: couldn't talk about that at the Women Tell All.
Speaker 1: So how much do you feel was you that we
Speaker 1: got to see Courtney for the most part? And how
Speaker 1: much do you feel the producers had a heavy hand
Speaker 1: and how you were portrayed and who you became to
Speaker 1: be on the show?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I mean maybe fifty fifty.
Speaker 6: You know, I think you know, I've talking to producers after,
Speaker 6: like Mike Fleiss and I hung out through Amy Bean
Speaker 6: and Malibu, and you know, he said, you're famous and
Speaker 6: he was like you know, it was him or one
Speaker 6: of the top female execs was like, we've never really
Speaker 6: had like a true model on the show, and like
Speaker 6: we kind of had to do it to you.
Speaker 3: So I think that they always knew, well, like did you?
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what I said.
Speaker 6: I was like, I remember Mike seeing my engagement ring,
Speaker 6: like how do you like that ring?
Speaker 3: I bought you?
Speaker 6: And so yeah, I mean it's just a small world,
Speaker 6: but yeah, I definitely think that they had a plan
Speaker 6: for me. Yeah, and I kind of shot myself in
Speaker 6: the foot by being so trusting in the interviews.
Speaker 3: I mean it was also positive.
Speaker 6: Like some people, it was like they love to hate me,
Speaker 6: but it was so bigger than I thought it could
Speaker 6: ever be, Like dealing with that kind of hate and
Speaker 6: having really no support.
Speaker 3: You know, I had dated celebrities, I'd.
Speaker 6: Seen them deal with paparazzi, but then like to be
Speaker 6: the one who has like paparazzi stalking me and being
Speaker 6: I was on the cover of US Weekly for like
Speaker 6: five weeks in a row, like.
Speaker 3: Man Eater, like shameless seduction.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then I hate to say it, but like
Speaker 6: Whitney Houston died and I was I had a break
Speaker 6: for about a week. Yeah, but it was just like
Speaker 6: the beating that never stopped. And on top of it,
Speaker 6: I was dealing with the relationship that wasn't so good.
Speaker 1: I can completely sympathize with that now. I understand that
Speaker 1: sorry sales.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, but it's and.
Speaker 6: I was curious to ask you that because when you
Speaker 6: went through this, I don't think you saw I know
Speaker 6: you were going through it. I didn't reach out to
Speaker 6: you personally, but I did a story and I probably
Speaker 6: went away in twenty four hours, but just saying like
Speaker 6: I miss him, like I was sad because I'm a
Speaker 6: fan of the show now I still watch because of everything,
Speaker 6: and I just had to say that I was really
Speaker 6: sad to see you go.
Speaker 3: I appreciated that. Thank you, And I know you know that.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a broken record.
Speaker 1: No, I apre no. I love hearing that, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate that so much, you know, because.
Speaker 3: You've been so delightful.
Speaker 6: When we did Katie Kirk in New York, we did
Speaker 6: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I've seen you at
Speaker 6: events and like you know, you've always just been such
Speaker 6: a solid dude, and people always ask me, how is he?
Speaker 3: I'm like, he's incredible.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Yeah, we've always had a great relationship.
Speaker 1: You and I have done We have done a ton
Speaker 1: of things. I remember when I essentially took over the
Speaker 1: Katie Kirk Show. We hosted it that day and had
Speaker 1: everybody on.
Speaker 3: I was so nervous it was but like, your.
Speaker 1: Season was so interesting because you know, I doubt that
Speaker 1: anybody had the idea before you walked in, but I
Speaker 1: think they saw the impression you made and thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: now this is a narrative, this is a string we
Speaker 1: can kind of weave throughout this entire season. And then
Speaker 1: on top of that, Ben was crazy about you, and
Speaker 1: that's really what sent this over the top. If you
Speaker 1: weren't the one, then it wouldn't have been that big
Speaker 1: of a deal and it would have petered out, and
Speaker 1: what's what's the big deal? But the fact that you
Speaker 1: won one essentially and you got engaged. I think that
Speaker 1: infuriated people. Do you think that exacerbated the whole thing.
Speaker 3: I think that he had Lindsay, who's sweetest pie?
Speaker 6: And we are just like night and day different, And
Speaker 6: I think it's like anybody like you're rooting for, like
Speaker 6: when you're watching it's a television show, and I remember,
Speaker 6: like I hate to say bring up the past, but
Speaker 6: I remember, like your wife said something like about me,
Speaker 6: like I really wish he would have picked you.
Speaker 3: Hear those things and you're like, oh, like you know,
Speaker 3: but he picked me. So but then I had to
Speaker 3: deal with the relationship as well, and.
Speaker 1: That was like yeah, and the relationship obviously didn't go
Speaker 1: great and broke up, right, but I mean he's.
Speaker 3: And we're fine now.
Speaker 6: But like this whole process was like very much so
Speaker 6: like pick me, pick me, and then afterwards it was
Speaker 6: still like pick me, pick me, where I was like
Speaker 6: I kind of got to the point where by the
Speaker 6: after the final rows, I was like I'm done.
Speaker 3: I have no fight left, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And do you ever go back? Have you watched
Speaker 1: that season back?
Speaker 6: So I watched some of it when I wrote my book,
Speaker 6: and I was shocked, I mean because I knew what
Speaker 6: I was wearing when I said this, and then I
Speaker 6: was shocked at like how many voiceovers were the things
Speaker 6: that caught created the most problem. Yeah, and then I
Speaker 6: was like, oh, I realized why the girls like oh
Speaker 6: they showed that or like I realized why the girls,
Speaker 6: I think that just made it worse, kind of going
Speaker 6: back to what we were talking about, Like they saw
Speaker 6: what I was saying my interviews, but when I was
Speaker 6: in the house I really didn't. I wasn't mean to
Speaker 6: their faces.
Speaker 3: I was just having fun.
Speaker 1: Right it is? And you kind of remind me a
Speaker 1: little bit of Michelle Money, who I'm very dear friends
Speaker 1: with as well, and she was kind of the narrator
Speaker 1: of her season, and she was so funny and so
Speaker 1: quick witted. In the moment, it didn't it didn't come
Speaker 1: off well, and she was a bit of a villain.
Speaker 1: I remember standing up for her at the tell all
Speaker 1: because I was like, guys, this is not who this
Speaker 1: girl is. Trust me, like y'all, you will learn to
Speaker 1: love her, and everyone did eventually your tell all, I
Speaker 1: felt really guilty and horrible when you were in the
Speaker 1: hot seat. I don't know if you know this. I
Speaker 1: was so sick, deathly ill. I was so sick.
Speaker 3: That was my question for you. I wondered if you
Speaker 3: were really sick.
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to faint. So here's what
Speaker 1: was going on. I was obviously you were the penultimate moment. Right,
Speaker 1: you were the interview that I was looking forward to
Speaker 1: that everybody was. You were the show, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: say what you will, You were the show. It was
Speaker 1: no longer about Ben, it was no longer it was
Speaker 1: all about you. You were the only thing driving this.
Speaker 1: If you had walked away, the show would have been
Speaker 1: off the air. That was it. You were driving the ratings.
Speaker 1: And so this was the interview. And I had the
Speaker 1: flu I had neat. I was so sick, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I got dizzy and I started sweating,
Speaker 1: and so I don't even know if you heard this
Speaker 1: in my microphone. I started whispering because I thought I
Speaker 1: got really dizzy, and you know how like the world
Speaker 1: starts closing in on you, so that starts happening. And
Speaker 1: there was back in the day we had fake candles
Speaker 1: after a while, but back you were real candles. So
Speaker 1: we had these this huge candle set up next to
Speaker 1: me on the left, and I thought, I was I
Speaker 1: wasn't even listening to what you were saying anymore. And
Speaker 1: I was like, well, if I pass out, I'm going
Speaker 1: to try and roll to the right, and so my
Speaker 1: face in it. Oh, I thought I was going to
Speaker 1: pass out, and then I think we stopped down for
Speaker 1: like an hour that day.
Speaker 3: That was my question.
Speaker 6: I'm glad to hear that you really were sick, because
Speaker 6: I kind of felt like duped after the fact, and
Speaker 6: like I could see you did look a little gray
Speaker 6: or green as.
Speaker 3: They call it. But I was sitting there. They bring
Speaker 3: me out.
Speaker 6: I walk out and like was we were starting to
Speaker 6: go when this happened, and the audience is booing me,
Speaker 6: the girls are chirping at me. They are gassed up
Speaker 6: on like tequila, and I sit down, so I'm like
Speaker 6: ready to go, and then they're like, Chris needs to
Speaker 6: lay down, and I was like, oh, okay, like thinking
Speaker 6: you'll just be right back or make up.
Speaker 3: I don't know which means.
Speaker 1: That's the weirdest thing in the world. Chris needs to
Speaker 1: lay down. That's never happened before. I've he's just never
Speaker 1: heard that. I've been sick twice in the history of
Speaker 1: the show. I was sick twice once.
Speaker 3: Hey, that's a good batting average.
Speaker 1: It was I was at the lady's house, I was
Speaker 1: at the mansion, and I had to do a quick
Speaker 1: just date card thing, so it didn't matter and then
Speaker 1: there was you. I don't even remember, and I hate
Speaker 1: to admit this, I don't even remember what I was
Speaker 1: asking because I wasn't even listening. If a producer wasn't
Speaker 1: in my ear at that moment when you stop talking,
Speaker 1: somebody would say something and I would ask that question.
Speaker 1: I wasn't even in the building. I had no and
Speaker 1: I felt horrible. I felt so guilty because I really
Speaker 1: liked you, as you know, thank you, and I thought
Speaker 1: you were I understood why there was this kind of
Speaker 1: villain moniker, but I also understood that there was this
Speaker 1: other side to you and that you were this really
Speaker 1: sweet woman, and maybe misunderstood a little bit, and so
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm going to try and bring
Speaker 1: this out, kind of like I did with Michelle Money,
Speaker 1: and I just wasn't there for you. I felt like
Speaker 1: I abandoned you.
Speaker 6: Well, it's so funny that you say that, because I
Speaker 6: kind of felt like, God, maybe he just doesn't like me,
Speaker 6: like because you know, and that's really nice of you
Speaker 6: to say that. Actually, like feels good to hear, because
Speaker 6: I felt like we had always had such good interactions
Speaker 6: and not that you abandoned me, but like like you said,
Speaker 6: like I was so terrified, but like I had watched
Speaker 6: Michelle Moneies because I was like, how is this going
Speaker 6: to go?
Speaker 3: And it wasn't that. It was just very like matter
Speaker 3: of fact, like how's your family doing?
Speaker 1: And I was like like like I wasn't even listening,
Speaker 1: like you're not even responding to what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: But on top of it, the girls.
Speaker 6: Were yelling like there's no way that you could have stopped.
Speaker 6: Like it's almost like this woman tall all with Jesse Palmer,
Speaker 6: like it's just like it was like and like you
Speaker 6: you weren't there.
Speaker 1: I really pride myself on listening and then you know,
Speaker 1: I'll have something in mind. But then usually the question,
Speaker 1: you know, we go off on a tangent somewhere else
Speaker 1: because that's where the interview takes you. And you could
Speaker 1: have said the sky is blue, and my next question
Speaker 1: could have been what color do you think the sky is?
Speaker 1: It was just I was so out of it.
Speaker 6: That makes so much sense to me, honestly, and like
Speaker 6: there were things that I wanted to like get across,
Speaker 6: and also this was before it was live.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank god.
Speaker 3: Can you imagine if you rolled off? No?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what it would happened because I
Speaker 1: had to go laid down Paulie. You remember Big Poulie,
Speaker 1: our stage man.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 3: I just saw him and they just had me back
Speaker 3: for group days. Oh really still there and he hooked
Speaker 3: me up on the stage.
Speaker 1: Yah's one of my favorite human beings. And he literally
Speaker 1: carried me to my room and laid me down on
Speaker 1: the couch and was just like, are you okay? I
Speaker 1: was like, I think I'm going to die. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I just need a minute and I'm sorry in a
Speaker 1: flop sweat for like thirty minutes, and then came back
Speaker 1: and then hosted the rest of the show and then
Speaker 1: went back and just passed out. It was war.
Speaker 3: You're a professional. You're a professional.
Speaker 1: Back to you know, being quote unquote a villain. Do
Speaker 1: you have advice for people now that you host your
Speaker 1: own podcast and you talk to so many people and
Speaker 1: I'm sure hopefully people have reached out to you. What
Speaker 1: is your advice to people that are either coined as
Speaker 1: the villain or going on a reality show?
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, so much advice. I mean, you really have
Speaker 6: to have thick skin, mind you. Instagram wasn't a thing
Speaker 6: when I went on. Twitter was kind of a thing.
Speaker 6: But the online hate and the trolls are really like,
Speaker 6: it doesn't matter who you are Kardashian, Rihanna, anybody in
Speaker 6: the public eye, you are going to get hate. I mean,
Speaker 6: I've had the most vile things said to me. I've
Speaker 6: had stalkers. I've had two stalkers. So just be prepared,
Speaker 6: like try to put yourself. You can't really prepare for it,
Speaker 6: like you think, oh, I might get a little famous,
Speaker 6: but just really keep that into consideration because your privacy
Speaker 6: just goes away for like for me, like I said,
Speaker 6: years like, I mean, wouldn't I couldn't go places. I
Speaker 6: lost my privacy and that was really hard for me
Speaker 6: because I was kind of this free spirit in Santa
Speaker 6: Monica and I didn't think it through all the way.
Speaker 1: I guess, well, I don't know if anybody can. And
Speaker 1: this is what I always say about people that say, oh,
Speaker 1: Courtney knew, she knew what she was signing up for,
Speaker 1: she was going on the You don't. They don't. I
Speaker 1: don't care how long the show's been on the air.
Speaker 1: You can't comprehend how your life can change if you
Speaker 1: are the one now for ninety five percent of the
Speaker 1: people on the show. Your life won't change positive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could be positive or whatever, but whether it's good
Speaker 1: or bad, there's certain people that just pop in. Your
Speaker 1: life changes and it can be a wonderful thing and
Speaker 1: lead to money and all that, but it can be
Speaker 1: very difficult. And I try to tell people, Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: no way Courtney could have prepared herself, even being a wonderful,
Speaker 1: talented model coming into this understanding dating a celebrity. No way,
Speaker 1: no way you can prepare for it.
Speaker 6: It's like the ABC, It's like any show, like now
Speaker 6: they have these amazing Netflix dating shows, like you just
Speaker 6: get rust into the life.
Speaker 3: I didn't.
Speaker 6: I guess I didn't realize what a big show it
Speaker 6: really was, and like how passionate the fans are, and
Speaker 6: as I'm sure you know, and I'm dying to ask
Speaker 6: you because I thought of you during your your whole
Speaker 6: thing that happened, and I wondered if you thought of
Speaker 6: like the villains, Like if you, for the first time
Speaker 6: in your life, felt that blowback in such a big
Speaker 6: way that maybe you hadn't before.
Speaker 1: It was a great question. Two things that really gave
Speaker 1: me perspective on the show. Going through my divorce and
Speaker 1: going through a breakup, dating again and being back in
Speaker 1: that world gave me such great perspective. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: going through what I went through has made me rethink
Speaker 1: and how I was treated by the show, by producers,
Speaker 1: by executives, the things promises made, promises not kept, et cetera.
Speaker 1: It made me sorry for some of the things that
Speaker 1: people went through thinking. I think I was pretty naive,
Speaker 1: thinking that there's no way certain things were happening, and
Speaker 1: they probably were behind my back and under my nose.
Speaker 1: I wish I'd been a little bit more aware, but
Speaker 1: for sure, it definitely gave me a whole different perspective
Speaker 1: on people like yourself. Honestly, it really has.
Speaker 6: It's a big weight on your shoulders. And for me, truthfully,
Speaker 6: and I don't know if I haven't admitted it much,
Speaker 6: but it was really embarrassing if the cringe the embarrassment
Speaker 6: that I had, Like there would be days where I
Speaker 6: just didn't leave my house.
Speaker 3: I was just so embarrassed and I didn't want to
Speaker 3: face the world.
Speaker 1: Well, you are facing it now and you're doing so beautifully,
Speaker 1: married children, beautiful life, and you have your podcast, so.
Speaker 6: It's after reality and it's really focusing on what life
Speaker 6: is really like after reality TV, like how do you
Speaker 6: figure it out? And yes, interviewing some celebrities and former contestants,
Speaker 6: especially villains, and talking about motherhood and.
Speaker 3: What that really looks like.
Speaker 6: I think it's easy to see this picture perfect highlight
Speaker 6: reel on Instagram, but it's tough.
Speaker 3: It's the hardest job in the world.
Speaker 6: And I'm going to be talking to other moms and
Speaker 6: I think people will find it funny and relatable and
Speaker 6: I'll definitely bring the tea in the snark.
Speaker 1: Courtney, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for
Speaker 1: being such a dear friend and supporter. And you may
Speaker 1: have been known as a villain, but let me just
Speaker 1: say it for the whole world to hear. This woman
Speaker 1: is anything but you are an absolute gem and I
Speaker 1: thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, anytime, Chris, I'm always in your corner.
Speaker 1: So good to reconnect with Courtney, and I'm so happy
Speaker 1: that she is living this beautiful life with her husband
Speaker 1: two kids. She's an amazing mom, one of those people
Speaker 1: that I do keep in touch with from time to time,
Speaker 1: and she's just been a big supporter and a dear friend,
Speaker 1: and it's always good to see a smile on her
Speaker 1: face and to see how she handled being a villain
Speaker 1: at the time and how, yes, I played a part
Speaker 1: in that, and as she very astutely brought up in
Speaker 1: her question to me, if I sympathize with that more
Speaker 1: considering what I went through And the answer emphatically as
Speaker 1: I said, is yes, I definitely empathize and sympathize with
Speaker 1: the villains and how they have been treated by their productions,
Speaker 1: by executives, by fans. Very interesting, how the tables can
Speaker 1: be turned. The tables definitely were turned on My next guest,
Speaker 1: Kelly Dodd, reality television star. For sure, you have to
Speaker 1: say that, but you also have to say quite the
Speaker 1: villain for the Real Housewives of Orange County.
Speaker 5: He said, I love you and then picked someone else.
Speaker 5: They haven't spoken in seven years. For the first time
Speaker 5: since their television breakup, they are reunited bachelor Ben Higgins,
Speaker 5: Bachelorette Joe, Joe Fletcher, and Jordan Rodgers together for the
Speaker 5: first time and you get to hear it all. Join
Speaker 5: Ashley I and Ben Haygen's along with Jojoe Fletcher, and
Speaker 5: Jordan Rodgers on the Almost Famous podcast available now wherever
Speaker 5: you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: Joining me from her house in Orange County. Kelly Dodd
Speaker 1: from the Real Housewives of Orange County, one of the
Speaker 1: more infamous housewives. I would say of all time, is
Speaker 1: that is that fair?
Speaker 4: I hope so, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty good.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's pretty fair. You were clearly
Speaker 1: a great housewife fan favorite. But would you also say
Speaker 1: you were a villain? Is that fair?
Speaker 4: I feel like I was attacked and I just stoock
Speaker 4: up for myself. But I wouldn't say I did anything,
Speaker 4: you know, and look into people's business. I didn't make
Speaker 4: up rumors. I didn't do anything like that. I mean,
Speaker 4: I don't feel like I was a villain.
Speaker 1: I always find it interesting because I've been on both
Speaker 1: sides of this, as far as being the host of
Speaker 1: the Bachelor Bacherette for so long, and I saw how
Speaker 1: it worked, but I also saw it happened naturally, meaning
Speaker 1: sometimes producers are involved and there's clever editing and all that,
Speaker 1: But then sometimes people just didn't resonate with the audience
Speaker 1: the way I thought they would, and they became a
Speaker 1: quote unquote villain. What camp do you fall in? Would
Speaker 1: you say some editing producing or was it just the
Speaker 1: way you were taken by the fans?
Speaker 4: I think it was just the way I was taken
Speaker 4: by the fans. I think they did. You know, they
Speaker 4: showed they provoked me. They they tried to, you know,
Speaker 4: poke the bear, my buttons, poked the bear, like making
Speaker 4: up rumors, you know, saying I did a sex train
Speaker 4: which I've never even had a pretty some you know,
Speaker 4: making up trying to get me drunk, trying to get
Speaker 4: you know, trying to make up rumors saying that you know,
Speaker 4: I cheated on my head. They're just like awful, nasty
Speaker 4: things where I felt like, you know, I have a
Speaker 4: daughter that was young at the time, and it was
Speaker 4: just like unnecessary lies that and I felt like I
Speaker 4: needed to defend myself. It I it was all meant. Now,
Speaker 4: was there editing involved? I mean were they yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: like poke the bear, get her drunk? Yes, there was
Speaker 4: and there, But but I think, you know, half, like
Speaker 4: like Andy Cohen said, I'm polarizing. Half the country likes
Speaker 4: me and half the country doesn't, you know, And I
Speaker 4: think that's what reality is, right.
Speaker 1: Like, that's not a good good reality TV for sure.
Speaker 1: It makes you think it provokes you to make up
Speaker 1: your own opinion on somebody mm hmm. And the main
Speaker 1: thing is I was always wondering, you know, with with
Speaker 1: all villains that are coming on today's show. You know,
Speaker 1: if they felt like they were for the most part,
Speaker 1: it is TV. If you, for the most part were
Speaker 1: portrayed as Kelly Dot if you felt like, yeah, that's me,
Speaker 1: you know, that was me speaking my piece.
Speaker 4: It's not me. It's not They don't show all of me.
Speaker 4: They only show snippets of me. So what you see
Speaker 4: on that show isn't me. Like I do a daily
Speaker 4: show on YouTube called The Daily Smash, the Rick and
Speaker 4: Kelly Show, and I do it every single day and
Speaker 4: everybody that writes my comments because I wish they would
Speaker 4: have showed this side of you on TV, Like, they
Speaker 4: don't show that part of me. They only show the
Speaker 4: parts were the conflict resolution kind of. They didn't see
Speaker 4: my day to day how I react and how I
Speaker 4: really am on the daily you know. And also I
Speaker 4: was going I was in a bad relationship. I was
Speaker 4: in a bad marriage, and that also I wasn't in
Speaker 4: the right head space at the time, so you know,
Speaker 4: you know, they never told me what to say or
Speaker 4: what to do. That was on me, So I mean,
Speaker 4: I have to own that. However it is produced. It
Speaker 4: is trying to make you look bad and horrible in
Speaker 4: a lot of ways. But whenever I said that came
Speaker 4: out of my mouth, came out of my mouth myself.
Speaker 1: Well, and do you to that point, do you regret anything?
Speaker 1: Or do you feel like you were always defending yourself?
Speaker 1: Is there anything you look back and you're like, maybe
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have called her a pig or said some
Speaker 1: of these things. Maybe I went a little too far.
Speaker 4: No, I don't regret anything. What I do regret is
Speaker 4: even dancing or entertaining like rumors, you know, like entertaining
Speaker 4: that like I should have just walked away and not
Speaker 4: even entertained it because it's garbage and it was lies,
Speaker 4: and I should have just said, like I shouldn't even
Speaker 4: have entertained.
Speaker 1: That's one of the hardest things to do. I always
Speaker 1: talked to about that when there are things thrown your way,
Speaker 1: and I dealt with this myself when I went through
Speaker 1: my situation. The hardest thing in the world to do
Speaker 1: is shut up and not speak, because you want to speak,
Speaker 1: but all that does is fan the flames, and it
Speaker 1: gives the story legs, and it gives everybody another thing
Speaker 1: to write about and talk about. So it is hard
Speaker 1: to not defend yourself because it's counterintuitive to somebody who's
Speaker 1: strong and independent.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, well, I think that what I did wrong
Speaker 4: for me was I that whole COVID thing. I feel
Speaker 4: like if I would have just like, not been on
Speaker 4: social media, I would have I wouldn't I still still
Speaker 4: have a high paying job. But also I'm happy that
Speaker 4: I out was outspoken what I do regret. I didn't
Speaker 4: do anything on the show and that Annie Coney said that.
Speaker 1: So you're you're referring to why you were eventually fired
Speaker 1: from the show, right, is there a world in which
Speaker 1: you would ever go back to the Real Housewives?
Speaker 4: You know, you know, it's so funny that you say
Speaker 4: that I loved the money.
Speaker 3: I loved it, and.
Speaker 4: I absolutely did.
Speaker 1: Does it pay well paid?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: I was getting paid, you know, almost half a million
Speaker 4: dollars a seison, yes, a season. Yeah, it's a big chunk.
Speaker 4: And now that but I made more money on that
Speaker 4: because I did meet and greets and I got to
Speaker 4: you know, speaking engagements, and so it was you know,
Speaker 4: I mean it was a lucrative job, but it got there.
Speaker 4: You didn't get paid that your first second season, you know.
Speaker 4: I was on there for five years. Yeah, but it
Speaker 4: was a lucrative, easy job. You know, all I had
Speaker 4: to do was film for four months and then do
Speaker 4: you know, press and do those confessionals. I mean it
Speaker 4: was easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They've monetized that show very well with Bravocan and
Speaker 1: all that that stuff. That's something that the Bachler Bacherette
Speaker 1: never did. They just could never get their ducks in
Speaker 1: a row and pull it out to do that. Because
Speaker 1: it's brilliant. There's a whole other cottage industry outside of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well before that, before the bravocns, I used to go
Speaker 4: do these these junkets with Derinda and Teresa Judais and
Speaker 4: Dolores and Tamra and we'd go like to Mohegan's son
Speaker 4: and do these meet and greets, and Bravo saw that
Speaker 4: we were making money doing that, and then they're like,
Speaker 4: uh uh uh huh, yeah, we're doing Bravocon and you know, uh,
Speaker 4: you're not going to be making more money. Well we're
Speaker 4: going to be We're the ones that are going to
Speaker 4: be making money.
Speaker 1: Well, do you find it ironic to a certain degree
Speaker 1: that they created, helped create this persona for you, this villainous,
Speaker 1: you know housewife. That's that's how they made ratings, that's
Speaker 1: how they made money, and then they turn around and
Speaker 1: fired you for being that person in real life.
Speaker 4: Right, I don't feel like I'm like again, I don't
Speaker 4: feel like I'm a villain. I didn't cheat people out
Speaker 4: of anything. I'd never been to prison. I I you know,
Speaker 4: I didn't lie in court and say that you know,
Speaker 4: you know, lie on my taxes, file bankruptcy. I mean,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know how I.
Speaker 1: Which A host of housewives have done all this stuff
Speaker 1: has been done.
Speaker 4: I'm not, you know, a villain, but those people are villains.
Speaker 4: I'm just outspoken. But it's I guess, like again, there's
Speaker 4: I have a huge following, you know I have. I
Speaker 4: have a close to a million followers that never paid
Speaker 4: for and they like what I have to say and
Speaker 4: what I stand for. I was too real for that Housewives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, that's interesting. It was like it was good
Speaker 1: for them when they needed it, and then when it
Speaker 1: got to be too much, they didn't like that.
Speaker 4: They didn't like anything that I had to say I
Speaker 4: was too real for the Housewives.
Speaker 1: Well, Kelly, I really wanted to talk to you because
Speaker 1: you know, we're doing this entire episode on villains, and
Speaker 1: I again, because of my perspective on this, I always
Speaker 1: found it just very interesting who resonated and why And
Speaker 1: the overall thing that I always said when I was
Speaker 1: hosting the show is these are still people. I know
Speaker 1: you see Kelly dot on Real Housewives, but this is
Speaker 1: a real woman who has a real family and living
Speaker 1: a real life. Right And did you do you find
Speaker 1: that fans and viewers had a tough time separating those two.
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, because I'm you know, I
Speaker 4: have a Patreon. You know, I have a patreon on
Speaker 4: YouTube and I have you know, I'm making a living
Speaker 4: off of that because I do have a lot of
Speaker 4: fans that I think just like I do. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: that's the reality. You know, half the people think like
Speaker 4: I do and have the people don't. But you know,
Speaker 4: if people want to portray me as a villain, you know,
Speaker 4: and that's the thing, Like they came out with the
Speaker 4: Ultimate Girls Trip of Villains, uh huh, they didn't pick me.
Speaker 4: If if that was a villain. How come they didn't
Speaker 4: pick me? They just don't like what I have to say.
Speaker 1: They think that I am a villain, right, very interesting. Well, Kelly,
Speaker 1: I appreciate your time and your insight on this and
Speaker 1: kind of opening the door to what it was like
Speaker 1: to be known as a villain on a reality show,
Speaker 1: whether you are or aren't in the real world. And
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was
Speaker 4: great talking to you and seeing you.
Speaker 1: All Right, Kelly, take care, all right, take care.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 1: My thanks to Kelly Dodd, Courtney Robertson, Richard Hatch. These
Speaker 1: three human beings who were unknown the day before they
Speaker 1: stepped foot on the set of The Real Housewives, The Bachelor,
Speaker 1: and Survivor. But now are sonon with those shows and
Speaker 1: with reality TV and with being a reality TV villain
Speaker 1: and what that means. But if you take anything away,
Speaker 1: as I told Courtney, and I've said this many times
Speaker 1: to people that have been on The Bachelor and Bacherette,
Speaker 1: these are people. These are real people. And I know
Speaker 1: many fans listening and on social media will say, well,
Speaker 1: that's what they signed up for, yes, and no, I
Speaker 1: can't begin to tell you how being shot out of
Speaker 1: a cannon without a net on the other side feels.
Speaker 1: But that is what it's like. Your hair is on
Speaker 1: fire and you're shot out of this cannon. You thought
Speaker 1: there would be some press, Yeah, you thought you might
Speaker 1: catch some grief on social media. But when you are
Speaker 1: the quote unquote villain or even the star of the show,
Speaker 1: I just don't think you can really prepare yourself for that.
Speaker 1: So maybe, in the immortal words of Richard Hatch, know
Speaker 1: who you are before you step on set. Know you
Speaker 1: have that confidence because trying to figure out in the
Speaker 1: middle of it is not going to work. Good lesson
Speaker 1: in life and a great show today, and I thank
Speaker 1: you all for being here, and I think my guest,
Speaker 1: as always, I love diving into this subject matter. I
Speaker 1: love having real conversations, and I love having those conversations
Speaker 1: with you. And I will talk to you next time
Speaker 1: because we have a lot more to talk about. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic
Speaker 1: pod ever and make sure to write us a review
Speaker 1: and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.