Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode. New listeners, old listeners, wherever.
Speaker 2: You are in the world.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you have joined us for an
Speaker 3: episode that I am so very excited about. It's been
Speaker 3: a long time coming, It's been in the works for
Speaker 3: a while. I'm bringing on a beautiful guest, a beautiful friend,
Speaker 3: to talk about things like identity, rituals, creative inspiration, everything
Speaker 3: and anything in between. Without further ado, I'd love you
Speaker 3: to introduce yourself.
Speaker 4: Hello, Hello, Hi, Hi, nice to meet you all. Yeah,
Speaker 4: big fan.
Speaker 2: Oh you're a big fan, big big fan of Big Fan.
Speaker 2: So who are you?
Speaker 4: That's a good question. Yeah, who am I? No, My
Speaker 4: name is claud Bailey. My pronouns are they, eat, them, they,
Speaker 4: and them. I'm a filmmaker and more recently have started
Speaker 4: doing a lot of work in queer youth, queer youth
Speaker 4: art projects, workshops, development programs. I don't really know how
Speaker 4: to sum it up, but I am a big advocate
Speaker 4: for giving queer youth opportunities to express themselves, and a
Speaker 4: lot of my filmmaking work because I write, direct and produce,
Speaker 4: is you know, centering queer youth as well. I just
Speaker 4: I love them. They're the future.
Speaker 2: They are, they are in the future. You did an
Speaker 2: amazing film recently, didn't you.
Speaker 4: I did.
Speaker 3: Can you talk about it a little bit? I feel
Speaker 3: like people would love to hear about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I made a film called right Here, premiered at
Speaker 4: Sydney Film Festival.
Speaker 2: Which ye are ye huh Well City Film Festival.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: When I got the email, I screamed in the street.
Speaker 4: It was a really gorgeous moment and I called my
Speaker 4: best friend.
Speaker 2: I was like, it happened.
Speaker 4: I did cry.
Speaker 2: I would be crying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. I always went to that festival when
Speaker 4: I was much younger and want to be a filmmaker.
Speaker 4: So then getting to have my film there was a
Speaker 4: really big moment. But that film was my fifth short
Speaker 4: film and my last. I think, really, yeah, I'm done
Speaker 4: with short films anyway. But it was about a young
Speaker 4: non binary person. They came out to their parents and
Speaker 4: their birthday didn't go very well. You don't really see that,
Speaker 4: and then they materialize at their future self's birthday party
Speaker 4: and they see the life they're going to have and
Speaker 4: the community they're going to have. Because I think a
Speaker 4: really big thing is that when you're a teenager or
Speaker 4: a kid queer youth, generally, you don't have any control
Speaker 4: over your environment. You don't have any control over your school,
Speaker 4: over your family. And so I wanted to give young
Speaker 4: people some tangible hope. That's like, if right now your
Speaker 4: environment is not it, it's coming, I promise you, because
Speaker 4: it happened for me, and it happened for so many
Speaker 4: queer folk around me. So it's coming. You just gotta
Speaker 4: and like, unfortunately, hold tight because it's all yours. And
Speaker 4: that's what the film's about.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's an amazing message. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 4: We're gonna bring it to schools all around Australia this year.
Speaker 4: I have a I'm working with Wear at Purple, which
Speaker 4: is a non for profit queer youth organization, and we're
Speaker 4: gonna try and get it to young people all around
Speaker 4: to be like here, yeah, have this.
Speaker 2: Little nugget of joy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as someone who like obviously we both grew up
Speaker 3: in Australia. I don't think there was any queer representation
Speaker 3: in any of my curriculum growing up.
Speaker 2: None at all.
Speaker 6: Oh not in curriculum, oh in a facet like you know,
Speaker 6: And I went to a pretty progressive school, and even
Speaker 6: with in that environment, it was like, this isn't really
Speaker 6: spoken about and it's not something that was like I
Speaker 6: think people had access to or were able to be
Speaker 6: educated on, which is so bizarre to me.
Speaker 3: Because I'm like, it does make up such an amazing,
Speaker 3: vibrant part of our society. It's just part of everyday
Speaker 3: life for so many people, even people who aren't queer.
Speaker 2: So I'm really excited that you're able to do that.
Speaker 4: Well, That's what's very interesting is that I'm working with
Speaker 4: a lot of queer youth right now and they have
Speaker 4: a lot more access to online spaces and to recomentation.
Speaker 4: But what I'm finding is that even though they have
Speaker 4: all this access, they have the terminology, they have the language,
Speaker 4: they know it's out there, they still though cannot touch it.
Speaker 4: It's beyond their grasps. And at a lot of schools
Speaker 4: there's the QSA, the Queer Straight Alliance and different pride
Speaker 4: groups and there's those spaces, but it's still it's still
Speaker 4: out of grasp, still not in reach, and so I
Speaker 4: think it's still extremely important.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually really good point, because I do feel
Speaker 3: like with the rise of social media and things like that,
Speaker 3: which we talk about it quite a bit on the podcast,
Speaker 3: and how it's changed our dynamics with other people and
Speaker 3: our relationships to ourselves, the fact that you're like that
Speaker 3: still isn't something that's like tangible for them. But I
Speaker 3: want to talk about this a little bit more like
Speaker 3: how you talked about how your film, the concept of
Speaker 3: your film was giving that hope to queer youth. Was
Speaker 3: that something that you drew a lot from your personal experience?
Speaker 3: How much of that was really like thinking about your
Speaker 3: past and thinking about how you came to really like
Speaker 3: embrace and show people your identity.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I went to a Catholic or girls' school.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah, positive. Yeah, And I was in the closet,
Speaker 4: but I didn't even know I was in the closet.
Speaker 4: Like I was in Nannia and I was living there,
Speaker 4: and like I was in love with my best friend
Speaker 4: in high school, but I didn't that didn't equate to
Speaker 4: me being queer. I was just like, oh, I love her.
Speaker 4: I love her, but I'm not a lesbian and I
Speaker 4: don't identify as a lesbian now anyway. Interesting, but I
Speaker 4: think that I didn't even have any of the tools
Speaker 4: to start to understand who I was or how I identified.
Speaker 4: That wasn't that wasn't around me whatsoever. We were all
Speaker 4: boy crazy and yeah, it just that. Again, that's what's
Speaker 4: so interesting about young people now is that they do
Speaker 4: have the access to understand what the queer world is
Speaker 4: like and what is out there, but they don't. They
Speaker 4: can't grasp. But I didn't even know. I had no idea.
Speaker 4: So I think back to my younger self, and I
Speaker 4: have so much love for them. I have so much
Speaker 4: love because not that I had a really great upbringing
Speaker 4: and I had a really gorgeous time in high school,
Speaker 4: but I just never really felt like myself. I never
Speaker 4: felt comfortable in my skin, I never really like I
Speaker 4: never had any high school boyfriends and everyone did, and
Speaker 4: I just thought that I was broken and all the
Speaker 4: sexual experiences I had were never fulfilling. So I always
Speaker 4: just thought, oh, this makes wrong with me. And so
Speaker 4: one thing, like I always say that queerness is the
Speaker 4: most beautiful thing about my life. It really is in
Speaker 4: every facet.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 4: We'll probably go into it, but I just I didn't
Speaker 4: even know. And so when I started, when I did
Speaker 4: come out and then started to enter community, I was like, whoa,
Speaker 4: I just I was blind. Now I can see, like's
Speaker 4: it was life changing.
Speaker 3: That sounds like a genuinely incredibly enlightening experience. And one
Speaker 3: thing I think that a lot of us don't really
Speaker 3: get right, like coming to terms with some part of
Speaker 3: our identity that has been concealed for some time, even
Speaker 3: people who are listening to this who may not identify
Speaker 3: as queer. That's not something that happens all the time.
Speaker 3: But I do just want to take a step back here,
Speaker 3: and you know, you talked about how your identity has
Speaker 3: kind of did from your adolescence, even your childhood maybe
Speaker 3: to like your adulthood, but like, how would you define
Speaker 3: it now? How would you define your queer identity of.
Speaker 2: The broader queer identity in general?
Speaker 4: Big question.
Speaker 3: We can we can buy, we can see bite sized chunks.
Speaker 3: I just kind of want to know like that, you know,
Speaker 3: you like how you said you were in the closet
Speaker 3: and you didn't even know it, Yeah, and now you're
Speaker 3: this amazing individual who is able to impact young people's
Speaker 3: lives with your message, with your stories. Like what was
Speaker 3: the kind of journey from that place when you're in
Speaker 3: high school to the place you are now?
Speaker 4: I think the biggest part of it was visibility. I
Speaker 4: only really understood these things within me when I saw
Speaker 4: it in others. That was and also experience, like I
Speaker 4: don't know, I kind of branched into two sections, like
Speaker 4: sexuality and gender because they are completely different. And I
Speaker 4: think a lot of people bunch gender and sexuality together
Speaker 4: because it's under the LGBTQIO plus you know header, But
Speaker 4: they're such different and also they intercross a lot as well.
Speaker 4: But for me, it was very separate. I realized I
Speaker 4: was gay or queer first, and that was this slow
Speaker 4: experience through relationships and through having Like I remember when
Speaker 4: I had my first crush outside of the person I
Speaker 4: loved in high school. It was very beautiful because I
Speaker 4: was like, oh, this wasn't just a one time thing,
Speaker 4: this is actually something inside of me. And it took
Speaker 4: a while to walk that path because I had never
Speaker 4: done it before. I didn't know anyone. I felt like
Speaker 4: that one I did kind of alone, and it was
Speaker 4: very slow, and it also took a lot of me
Speaker 4: breaking down so many barriers that I had about me
Speaker 4: being broken that came from, which is such a.
Speaker 3: Hard experience to think. If you it kind of hurts
Speaker 3: me to think that you ever thought of yourself that way.
Speaker 4: I thought of myself for that way for such a
Speaker 4: long time. On the other side of that was the
Speaker 4: most liberating and healing thing, and that's why I say
Speaker 4: quickness is one of the most gorgeous things about my life,
Speaker 4: because it was like, oh, these things, yeah, yeah, they
Speaker 4: were not working for you for many different reasons. Let's
Speaker 4: give you another avenue to explore yourself. And through that
Speaker 4: I was able to feel lovable. And it was very
Speaker 4: relationship based, but gender has been the most personal thing
Speaker 4: to me, and it was through I guess another relationship.
Speaker 4: But I met someone who became one of my best
Speaker 4: friends who was trans is trans and I saw in
Speaker 4: them or him what I always felt inside of me.
Speaker 4: And that's why I say visibility. I saw it and
Speaker 4: I went, hey, I really feel this thing and I
Speaker 4: can't really describe it, but I just feel it.
Speaker 5: And then I.
Speaker 4: Started asking friends to you they them again because I
Speaker 4: had met other non binary people and it just felt right.
Speaker 4: It didn't really make sense. I didn't understand it, but
Speaker 4: it just felt right. And then people started using they them.
Speaker 4: And it's not even about the words, to be honest,
Speaker 4: It's just about a feeling.
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 3: It's not about the words because I feel like and
Speaker 3: I just feel like, this is such an interesting thing
Speaker 3: because I think when we think about the political space
Speaker 3: and whatever and how politics and personal opinion and public
Speaker 3: opinion interacts with our lives, like a big discussion is
Speaker 3: around like the use of pronouns.
Speaker 4: Well, that's like the most exhausting part of all of
Speaker 4: it is that our identity as queer or trans people
Speaker 4: is political now.
Speaker 2: And it's fucked.
Speaker 4: Am I allowed to swear?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It is fucked because you know what I feel like,
Speaker 3: only like the people who are oppressed, their lives become political.
Speaker 4: It's true.
Speaker 3: It's such lives are not political as much as like,
Speaker 3: you know, a heterois man might want to say that, like,
Speaker 3: oh my life is political because I could be anceled.
Speaker 3: That's not a political thing, the same way that like
Speaker 3: abortion is a political thing, or like, you know, access
Speaker 3: to curriculum or schools. If you're someone who is transgender
Speaker 3: or non binary, is a fucking political thing these That's
Speaker 3: why I.
Speaker 4: Say that if I had it my way, I would
Speaker 4: not talk about my gender experience with anyone because I
Speaker 4: don't have words for it.
Speaker 2: Still.
Speaker 4: It has always been based in feeling and I can't
Speaker 4: really summarize it. And what sucks is that pronouns are
Speaker 4: such an external thing. People can misgender you every single day.
Speaker 4: People say you're coming out every single day, and that
Speaker 4: is exhausting, and I wish I could. I just always
Speaker 4: define my gender as like a floating bob in the ether,
Speaker 4: which makes cist people go what the fuck on about?
Speaker 2: But it's kind of a beautiful metaphor.
Speaker 4: I just I don't feel like man, I feel like women.
Speaker 4: I just want to exist and not be seen as
Speaker 4: either blah blah blah. But I will talk about it
Speaker 4: because visibility is what grant me to feel like myself.
Speaker 4: So I will do this so hopefully someone can listen
Speaker 4: and go, oh, I feel that within me as well,
Speaker 4: because that is the most beautiful gift we can give
Speaker 4: each other, is that feeling of coming home to yourself.
Speaker 4: So I will do it because I want others to
Speaker 4: feel this way. But it's exhausting. It's the most personal thing.
Speaker 4: Like just imagine any part of your identity that is
Speaker 4: like inside of you that you don't have words for it.
Speaker 4: It's like a little locked box. Having to find words
Speaker 4: for it and be able to, you know, talk about
Speaker 4: it on panels and make work about it. It's a lot,
Speaker 4: and I don't hate it. I have found a way
Speaker 4: to love it because now I am finding ways to
Speaker 4: give other young people the opportunity to make work about
Speaker 4: it and create have expression with it all. But it's
Speaker 4: a really confusing thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my gosh, I can only imagine, and it's
Speaker 3: actually really interesting for me to hear and be like,
Speaker 3: I'm asking you these questions right now, and the fact
Speaker 3: that you've learned to love this thing. But then I
Speaker 3: think about my own experience, like no one's ever question
Speaker 3: my identity that way. We kind of have it easy,
Speaker 3: like I never have to explain that because it falls
Speaker 3: into a very like easy box for people to understand.
Speaker 3: And I really do respect what you're saying about how
Speaker 3: it's like it comes with a lot of almost emotional burden.
Speaker 2: Would you say that's the right word?
Speaker 4: Formational? Labor, emotional labor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yet you still feel this duty to do it.
Speaker 4: I think what's really difficult is that I people, so,
Speaker 4: for example, someone on the street, your family member, anyone
Speaker 4: asks you these questions about your transit's your queerness, and
Speaker 4: for them it's just another chat, another discussion, another thing
Speaker 4: they're curious about. It's a dinner table conversation. For you,
Speaker 4: it is the most personal and sacred part. And these
Speaker 4: conversations sometimes are really beautiful and healing and gorgeous, and
Speaker 4: I don't think they shouldn't happen. That's how we bridge understanding.
Speaker 4: But there is a lot of times that there is
Speaker 4: no acknowledgment of how much emotional labor the person from
Speaker 4: the marginalized group has to do because they're experiencing so
Speaker 4: much all the time, they're experiencing people saying horrible things
Speaker 4: on Instagram or saying things on the street, that this
Speaker 4: isn't just another dinner table conversations. Is them having to, like,
Speaker 4: you know, pull out that drawer and bring out their
Speaker 4: palm cards, that they've had to work out how to
Speaker 4: talk about these things, and it's just it is so personal,
Speaker 4: and I think it's it's that I always like to
Speaker 4: say to you, it's a dinner table conversation. To me,
Speaker 4: it's my heart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess that kind of links back with
Speaker 3: what we were talking about, how it's become quite politicized
Speaker 3: in a way that very few other elements of our
Speaker 3: identity other than like probably religion, have become politicized. And
Speaker 3: even then it's very different.
Speaker 4: And I think it's like the minority Olympics you hear
Speaker 4: about these days, that like so many parts of our
Speaker 4: identity are politicized now. It's confusing that, you know, if
Speaker 4: you say, And honestly, since coming out a non binary,
Speaker 4: I have risk gotten so many more opportunities work wise,
Speaker 4: and it's interesting. I go, Okay, cool, all my emotional labor.
Speaker 4: I guess it's coming through this way in a in
Speaker 4: a weird, strange way. But nothing's good or bad. It's
Speaker 4: just it's just what it is, yeah, which is a
Speaker 4: great way. You're just such a stoic I always say, clude,
Speaker 4: there's a stoicedness.
Speaker 2: You love life for what it contains, but you're very
Speaker 2: much like it's finite.
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, the fragility of life, so you might
Speaker 4: as well enjoy it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh yeah, absolutely well. With that in mind, I
Speaker 3: feel like you're talking. You're talking a lot about this
Speaker 3: emotional labor, which I think that someone like me can't understand,
Speaker 3: right Like, I'm never going to understand it the way
Speaker 3: that you've already understood it at your age. Is there
Speaker 3: anything that you're like, Okay, I wish people would just
Speaker 3: understand this about me, or about the people that are
Speaker 3: like me, or about the people that I have community
Speaker 3: with that isn't talked about much, Like what would you
Speaker 3: say is a big misunderstanding that if you had the
Speaker 3: opportunity you could correct, or something that you would love
Speaker 3: to be like, Okay, you know you're at a dinner
Speaker 3: table conversation with your family. What's a question you wish
Speaker 3: wasn't asked that you could correct? Right now?
Speaker 4: I think my main thing is to tell them you
Speaker 4: don't have to understand it to respect it. I love
Speaker 4: if you are trying to understand it and come from
Speaker 4: a place of empathy and openness and that you want
Speaker 4: to listen. But you don't have to understand what it
Speaker 4: means to be non binary, or what it means to
Speaker 4: be trands or like the logistics of it all. That's
Speaker 4: not really your business and you maybe can ask to
Speaker 4: depending on the relationship in the person, but you don't
Speaker 4: have to understand to just respect it. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 4: main thing, because it is I always say, it is
Speaker 4: a gift if someone gives you their vulnerability and their
Speaker 4: insights in all of this, because they're living in every
Speaker 4: day and they're talking about it to all of their
Speaker 4: friends and people in their life all the time. So
Speaker 4: if they want to give that to you, that's really gorgeous.
Speaker 4: But it should be like you should handle it as
Speaker 4: a gift, not as just something that you take.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think is like a great attitude with
Speaker 3: many things, Like someone's giving you their time and their
Speaker 3: energy and their they're very carefully thought out words like
Speaker 3: you've said, you know, those flash cards almost of information
Speaker 3: and things that they need to plan to say. Have
Speaker 3: you found that, like in the conversations you've had with family,
Speaker 3: that there's people who haven't wanted to understand or haven't
Speaker 3: wanted to respect. Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 4: Happens all the time. You can sniff it instantly when
Speaker 4: someone is inquisitive and curious and wants to know, And
Speaker 4: it's very different when someone doesn't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's what?
Speaker 3: How can you tell the difference, because I feel like
Speaker 3: the line of questioning to begin with might be quite similar.
Speaker 2: You can just a lot.
Speaker 4: A lot of it is in the tone. If someone
Speaker 4: feels like they're arguing with you to some extent, and
Speaker 4: that's really hard because they're arguing about your identity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not none of their business, I guess as well,
Speaker 3: which is the strange thing like.
Speaker 4: And also if they want to actually understand versus I
Speaker 4: don't know what versus, but if they judge all yeah,
Speaker 4: but they're here to be like, hey, I don't really
Speaker 4: get that. Like I love when people in my life
Speaker 4: who you know, aren't queer sit me down and be like, hey,
Speaker 4: I love you so much and I really want to
Speaker 4: get like understand this of you more. Can you tell
Speaker 4: me about it more? And it's something that was really
Speaker 4: beautiful the film I made. The actor in it, the
Speaker 4: lead is this amazing non binary person who I adore,
Speaker 4: and they told me this really beautiful story that I
Speaker 4: feel like they won't mind me sharing. Their mum, who's
Speaker 4: also this amazing filmmaker who I'm a big fan of.
Speaker 4: She was like, I love your queerness.
Speaker 2: I want to.
Speaker 4: Understand it more. It's one of my favorite things about you.
Speaker 4: I cried because I was like, oh my gosh, that's stunning.
Speaker 4: I've heard enough of Oh I'll love you despite this,
Speaker 4: or I love you no matter what, even like I
Speaker 4: want you to love me because of this, because it's
Speaker 4: one of my favorite things about me. And I don't
Speaker 4: mean this with like family, I just mean this generally.
Speaker 4: It's like a gorgeous thing about a person. I wish
Speaker 4: everyone could be queer. It's the best thing about being alive.
Speaker 2: It really is is.
Speaker 3: But why do you say that, like when you talk
Speaker 3: about well, I guess it's like that visibility.
Speaker 2: We're talking about the community.
Speaker 4: The community. It's even out like outside of the relationships
Speaker 4: and quit intimacy, which is also stunning.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, we were talking about that earlier, like that
Speaker 3: book that I've been reading that.
Speaker 2: Was really really interesting, and how it was.
Speaker 3: About no monogamy, nom monogamy, yeah, open relationships, polyamory, and
Speaker 3: how so much of the hetero conceptualization of that idea
Speaker 3: has come from inspiration from from queer culture and queer
Speaker 3: identities and and people who have adopted that within like
Speaker 3: lesbian communities and whatnot, and how the relationships that they
Speaker 3: have with each other has kind of almost been taken
Speaker 3: as inspiration for how us as a heteros like you know,
Speaker 3: as a hetero person, approaches concepts like that. It's like
Speaker 3: so fascinating, so interesting.
Speaker 4: Honestly, I wish everyone could get a little portal into
Speaker 4: all the conversations I have with my queer friends, because
Speaker 4: they about connection and about navigating. Like I was having
Speaker 4: this gorgeous conversation today about cross pollination, so oh what
Speaker 4: does that mean? Essentially like the web so especially we're
Speaker 4: currently on Gadigal Land in Sydney and in the Inner West,
Speaker 4: the quick community is quite dense. Everyone knows each other,
Speaker 4: Everyone's fucked each other. Everyone, it's very interwoven. And we
Speaker 4: were talking today about how to navigate that, and I've
Speaker 4: had a lot of experience in that, and I think
Speaker 4: we came down to that if you have a connection
Speaker 4: with someone, if you want someone, always go out go
Speaker 4: for that like that you should. Again depends on everyone's
Speaker 4: moral compasses and relationships and dynamics. But also it's all
Speaker 4: about communication and it's all about being conscious of other
Speaker 4: people's feeling and like queer people because we have to
Speaker 4: do that all the time. Our pool is a lot
Speaker 4: smaller than the very world. We have learnt these skills
Speaker 4: of how to not always because sometimes it's really tricky,
Speaker 4: but you know, everyone is friends with their exes or
Speaker 4: one of their exes. Everyone knows friends of friends who
Speaker 4: have slept with each other, seen each other, whatever it is.
Speaker 4: It's so interwoven. You have to learn these skills and
Speaker 4: it's really gorgeous. But going back to where I love
Speaker 4: the queer community, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Want to hear everything about it. I feel like it's
Speaker 3: such an important thing to talk about.
Speaker 4: Like it's like if you're out there and you're a
Speaker 4: baby queer, a baby queer, you're you're queer, you maybe
Speaker 4: haven't come out or you don't have much community. Oh gosh,
Speaker 4: it is stunning because no matter where, Like I just
Speaker 4: went to the US last year and it was my
Speaker 4: first time going overseas queer like out and queer. Any
Speaker 4: anywhere I went, I would go to a queer bar, event,
Speaker 4: trans space, whatever, and every time I instantly felt safe
Speaker 4: and like I was with family, And that is what
Speaker 4: it always feels like going into a queer space, not
Speaker 4: always a gay space, but that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 4: By going into a queer space you walk in, people
Speaker 4: will always make sure they look after you. People will
Speaker 4: always like have chats to you, welcome you, be inclusive.
Speaker 4: It is this con like this big, huge network that
Speaker 4: you can just dive in and people are they just
Speaker 4: everyone's had the same shared experience and a lot of
Speaker 4: people have had that in isolation or you know, completely
Speaker 4: by themselves regionally in their Catholic or girls school, whatever
Speaker 4: it is. Everyone has had a very similar experience and
Speaker 4: different ones, but like a core thing. So it just
Speaker 4: connects you in a way that you know, that's a
Speaker 4: lot of community. Well we called chosen family, you know,
Speaker 4: because a lot of queer people's family don't always accept
Speaker 4: them or understands them. So like, you know, over Christmas,
Speaker 4: I went to Queer Christmases and it was just filled
Speaker 4: with community and it was so gorgeous. I don't know
Speaker 4: what else to say. I just it's one of my
Speaker 4: favorite things about being alive because it integrates all of
Speaker 4: these different kind of relationship structures. It puts in family,
Speaker 4: and it puts in friendship and love and like romantic
Speaker 4: love into one huge I keep saying cessedpot that is
Speaker 4: not it but like no, but.
Speaker 2: Like a gorgeous community.
Speaker 4: Yummy dish, oh y, it's gorgeous.
Speaker 2: It does sound really beautiful.
Speaker 3: That's an amazing I think outlook. And especially when as
Speaker 3: we were talking about like the baby queers, I've never
Speaker 3: heard that. I think that feels like the most beautiful
Speaker 3: phrase ever. And people he were saying, like, you're listening
Speaker 3: to this or or even the film you made, which
Speaker 3: was targeted towards people.
Speaker 2: Who might be in like a pretty dark space, who
Speaker 2: like or in in a.
Speaker 3: Pretty isolating space, who haven't maybe been able to be
Speaker 3: truthful with themselves or those around them. And there might
Speaker 3: be people who are listening to this right now who
Speaker 3: are going through something really similar and who are really
Speaker 3: questioning whether they do want to come out and whether
Speaker 3: that's the right thing for them to do in their
Speaker 3: community and their cultural group and their family. And they
Speaker 3: might be listening to this with fear or excitement. So
Speaker 3: do you have any words of wisdom, any advice for
Speaker 3: people who are in that situation?
Speaker 4: I think that coming out is quite archaic because if
Speaker 4: you are in a position that you do not feel
Speaker 4: safe too, I'm putting air quotes, come out with your
Speaker 4: family or cultural group or religious group or whatever it is.
Speaker 4: You can for your own safety not come out to
Speaker 4: those people, but you can still access community, whether that
Speaker 4: be online or whether that be in physical spaces, depending
Speaker 4: on your situation. That it doesn't need to be this
Speaker 4: huge overnight I'm out and proud.
Speaker 2: You know, fuck you support me.
Speaker 4: It doesn't need to be that. If you need to
Speaker 4: stagger it, if you need to have it in only
Speaker 4: safe spaces, that is okay, it is. It doesn't matter
Speaker 4: because it is up to you and your safety. And
Speaker 4: that's what's really hard. And I drill home about all
Speaker 4: of this as well. So much of queerness is about safety.
Speaker 4: That's why we gather in community. That's why we have
Speaker 4: our echo chambers, is because we do not feel safe
Speaker 4: out in the world all the time overseas are so
Speaker 4: many anti queer laws in so many different countries, Like
Speaker 4: there is a reason we congregate at the bearded tit
Speaker 4: and you know, our different watering holes, because that is
Speaker 4: the place. And then I also say, it is all
Speaker 4: coming for you. Whether you have it right now you don't,
Speaker 4: I really am sending so much love to you. If
Speaker 4: you do not have that right now and you don't
Speaker 4: feel it's successible, but I just promise you to hold
Speaker 4: out because there's so many little pockets. There's going to
Speaker 4: be the people that are yours, and you're going to
Speaker 4: find them.
Speaker 5: It's stunning, Claude, you do some amazing things for your
Speaker 5: emotional and your mental and your spiritual wellbeing.
Speaker 3: I would say that really kind of I think drew
Speaker 3: me to you when we first met, and then as
Speaker 3: I started following along with like some of the things
Speaker 3: you're posting online and then some of the discussions we've
Speaker 3: had recently, it's just become even more prominent to me,
Speaker 3: Like what an amazing inspiration you are for the specific
Speaker 3: like activities that you do that really help, like resenter
Speaker 3: you can you talk a bit about them. I want
Speaker 3: to hear about the solo dates in particular. I feel
Speaker 3: like this is solo dates. The soli dates is like
Speaker 3: one of the best ideas I've heard in.
Speaker 2: A long time.
Speaker 4: Well, I think soli dates is heard about, but I
Speaker 4: have a structure that I'd be doing for the last
Speaker 4: three years that every month I go on a solo
Speaker 4: date to an Italian restaurant. You can choose your own.
Speaker 4: You don't have to be Italian that's just what I like.
Speaker 2: Vie whatever you like.
Speaker 4: But I like to do Italian so I love Italian food,
Speaker 4: and I book myself into a restaurant, I bring my journal,
Speaker 4: and every time as well, I book there always like
Speaker 4: just for one person, I'm like, yeah, babe. Well, at
Speaker 4: the start of the solo dates, I would be a
Speaker 4: bit timid and be like, yeah, it's just me. But no,
Speaker 4: now I'm like, yes, it's just me. I go to
Speaker 4: a different Italian restaurant every single time. And I have
Speaker 4: these set of questions that I, you know, ask myself
Speaker 4: where I journal about them. So I will put like
Speaker 4: my date number, where I'm at physically, like the location,
Speaker 4: and then I ask myself, what did you do today?
Speaker 4: And I write in extreme detail because that will be
Speaker 4: so interesting to look back on when I'm an old,
Speaker 4: old person. And then I ask what are you looking
Speaker 4: forward to? And I do little dot points, and I
Speaker 4: do what's on your mind or on your heart, and
Speaker 4: I just let myself blurge whatever is taking up brain space.
Speaker 4: And then what are you proud of yourself for? And
Speaker 4: I do little dot points and then the last three
Speaker 4: texts I receive because I think that's just another interesting
Speaker 4: thing to see. And I'll be doing that every single
Speaker 4: month for the last three years, and it is such
Speaker 4: a beautiful thing, like a gift to yourself every month,
Speaker 4: but also a moment of reflection and to see what
Speaker 4: you want to, what you're looking forward to, where you've been,
Speaker 4: where you're at. And at the end of every solid date,
Speaker 4: I read the entry from the month before, and it's wild.
Speaker 4: Every time I say what are you looking forward to
Speaker 4: or what do you want, everything happens like really like
Speaker 4: it it always does, and also like it could be
Speaker 4: big things, it could be small things, but it just
Speaker 4: keeps you on track for what you really want in
Speaker 4: your life. And I think having rituals like that is
Speaker 4: just a really gorgeous thing to be able to check
Speaker 4: in with yourself and continually check in with your gut
Speaker 4: and that you're on the path that you want to
Speaker 4: be on. Because we have a short time on this earth,
Speaker 4: we really do, but it's also the longest thing we're
Speaker 4: ever going to know, because it's like human you know,
Speaker 4: the human time, Like that's all we know. But it's
Speaker 4: the longest but also shortest thing because it's inevitably going
Speaker 4: to end. So I want to be living my life
Speaker 4: how I fucking want to, like, how I want to be.
Speaker 4: I want to be doing what I want. I want
Speaker 4: to be following my gut. I want to be always
Speaker 4: prioritizing my well being, my pleasure, my joy. And so
Speaker 4: it's something it's a way for me to continually do that,
Speaker 4: because it's very easy in life to get swept away
Speaker 4: and feel monotonous or disassociated or out of touch and
Speaker 4: get into a routine that you're not in touch with yourself.
Speaker 4: So it's something it really allows for me to continually
Speaker 4: check in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like those rituals are such an
Speaker 3: important part of our twenties, right, And I love what
Speaker 3: you're saying about knowing that like and hoping that you're
Speaker 3: going to get to the age where you can be
Speaker 3: reflective on these points and being like, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be able to track my development and like my goals
Speaker 3: and and things like that.
Speaker 4: And also I read back these entries from like, you know,
Speaker 4: a few years ago, and the things that when I
Speaker 4: would say what's in your mind or what's in your heart,
Speaker 4: and I'd read those splurges of my anxieties or whatever
Speaker 4: was happening years later, months later, that's fluff. I don't
Speaker 4: remember it, or I it's not important to me anymore.
Speaker 4: And it teaches me that when I'm feeling anxious about
Speaker 4: something or I my brain is spiraling about something, that
Speaker 4: that is always transitory, like it is, it isn't gonna
Speaker 4: be there for long. So if you're feeling it, let
Speaker 4: it swell. But also there are times to externalize and
Speaker 4: step out of it because it's really not gonna be
Speaker 4: there forever. Some things are, but a lot of things
Speaker 4: are just going to float away and you're not going
Speaker 4: to really remember it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have this saying that I stay.
Speaker 3: Quite a bit on the podcast, which is that like,
Speaker 3: if it's not going to matter in five years, you
Speaker 3: shouldn't think about it for longer than five.
Speaker 4: It's not gonna matter for a month, should you know.
Speaker 3: It's well, that's the thing, right, It's like and I
Speaker 3: totally have that experience as well, which is like why
Speaker 3: I also am a huge proponent of journaling of in
Speaker 3: some way keeping track of your journey through life. I
Speaker 3: like read back on this journal entry from like twenty seventeen,
Speaker 3: which is what like six years ago, Yeah, and I
Speaker 3: was like talking about this person. I was like I'm
Speaker 3: not gonna say their name because I feel like I
Speaker 3: don't know they are a real person, but I was like,
Speaker 3: let's call them Lucy. I was like, Lucy said this
Speaker 3: really mean thing to me, And then you know, Anna
Speaker 3: was like saying this thing and that, and I was
Speaker 3: so annoying and I was so mad and like blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. I don't even remember who those people are.
Speaker 3: Like I was reading back on that journal.
Speaker 2: Entry, and I was like, who is Anna? Who is Lucy?
Speaker 3: Like I don't have any idea of who they are,
Speaker 3: but I think that like, especially in this like like
Speaker 3: this decade of life where it's like this is our
Speaker 3: first decade of adulthood, everything feels so permanent and so severe,
Speaker 3: and we no longer have like the shelter of our
Speaker 3: families and the shelter of being young to.
Speaker 2: Kind of protect us. Things can feel so much more
Speaker 2: serious than they actually are.
Speaker 4: But also flip that we are still so young. Your twenties,
Speaker 4: we were talking about this before, are famously the time
Speaker 4: of making mistakes, experimenting, working out who you are. So
Speaker 4: it's also that it's okay to go through all those
Speaker 4: growing pains still you know you're not you haven't got
Speaker 4: your shit sorted in your twenties, is whatsoever?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, literally, I feel like and it's so interesting. I think,
Speaker 3: like meeting other people who are doing something similar and
Speaker 3: like doing a creative thing and being like, WHOA, like
Speaker 3: this is I never expected that I'd end up here.
Speaker 2: And I always think about who I was.
Speaker 3: Ten years ago or five years ago, and I'm like, WHOA,
Speaker 3: this person would never have really been able to conceptualize
Speaker 3: or have any understanding of, you know, the loves that
Speaker 3: I've had, the mistakes that I've made, the moves that
Speaker 3: I've made, like and that's going to keep happening, I know.
Speaker 3: And that's like, actually such a beautiful thing to me,
Speaker 3: because I think sometimes I get quite worried about like
Speaker 3: the passing of time, and I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: this is so stressful that like life is so finite
Speaker 3: and there's so much I want to do, and you know,
Speaker 3: time just keeps passing. And then I'm like the fact
Speaker 3: that I like look back on the last five years
Speaker 3: of my life and I'm like, you know, by the
Speaker 3: in five years time, i won't be thirty, i won't
Speaker 3: even be thirty yet, and I will have all of
Speaker 3: those experiences and so many more yet again, and like
Speaker 3: I just cannot wait for it. It makes me feel
Speaker 3: so optimistic to reflect and then also look forward.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have that same experience.
Speaker 4: I always loved getting older. I've always just I've every
Speaker 4: time I get a year old, a go, thank the Lord.
Speaker 4: Just I love getting older. I can't wait. I love
Speaker 4: being this age. I'm excited to be my thirties. I'm
Speaker 4: excited to be my forties. I'm excited to be in
Speaker 4: my fifties. I don't want to rush it, but I
Speaker 4: love getting older. I love juicing more experiences up and
Speaker 4: becoming who I am because every year it gets better,
Speaker 4: Like oh it's so hard, something like last year was
Speaker 4: fucking hard, but it was every year. I'm just getting
Speaker 4: closer and closer to myself. And I was saying to
Speaker 4: you before, and this might be different in Claudia in
Speaker 4: a year's time would be like what the fuck man,
Speaker 4: what are you're saying? But I don't get nervous anymore.
Speaker 4: I have. I feel so confident in myself and that
Speaker 4: is so cool. And maybe you know, I like to
Speaker 4: say this quote I heard somewhere, which is you will
Speaker 4: lose yourself over and over again, and you will find
Speaker 4: yourself over and over again. So I'm sure there are
Speaker 4: times that I will feel extremely nervous and anxious and
Speaker 4: all those things. But as I keep getting older, I
Speaker 4: just feel more in myself. And I think that's a
Speaker 4: really nice thing to look forward to, because time gives
Speaker 4: you that.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, like you did go through a really rough
Speaker 3: time last year, Like we talked about this the other day, right,
Speaker 3: and it was I didn't live it, and even hearing
Speaker 3: you speak about it.
Speaker 2: I was like, that sounds all forl and so traumatic.
Speaker 3: And so what do you think is, well, you know,
Speaker 3: there's been circumstantial things that have changed, but like the
Speaker 3: fact that you're talking about you're talking about how you
Speaker 3: don't have any anxiety and how your life just keeps
Speaker 3: getting better. Like why do you think you've been able
Speaker 3: to shift into that perspective? Like what do you think
Speaker 3: has changed in the way you see the world or
Speaker 3: the way you address your life or focus on your life. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that has created shift because I'm sure that a lot
Speaker 3: of people are listening to this being like, wow, living
Speaker 3: without anxiety, that sounds absolutely blessed.
Speaker 4: Well, I also want to acknowledge that a lot of
Speaker 4: people you know, have anxiety or depression or any other
Speaker 4: kind of yeah mental exactly, that is outside of their control.
Speaker 4: And I'm not like, whoo, life is great, just live
Speaker 4: on the bright side. But for me, my mum was
Speaker 4: diagnosed with cancer last year, and that was heinous. It
Speaker 4: was she's she's fine. Now she's a remission, which is great,
Speaker 4: but that, yeah, it was. It was heinous. And I
Speaker 4: was also going through a breakup at the same time,
Speaker 4: so those two and like my first big breakup, so
Speaker 4: the two were kind of hitting off each other. But
Speaker 4: since you know, healing from both of those things, a
Speaker 4: huge perspective shift happened, which was, if I wake up
Speaker 4: and circumstantial things I cannot control everything is shit and
Speaker 4: I can't control that, then fair enough to feel all
Speaker 4: those things. But if I wake up and everything is
Speaker 4: okay for the most part in my immediate life, like
Speaker 4: obviously the world is a bit cooked, so yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: I understand when people can tap into that. But if
Speaker 4: I wake up and people my life are alive and
Speaker 4: well and healthy at this point, and then I might
Speaker 4: as well have the best fucking time and enjoy myself
Speaker 4: because it tragedy is coming for all of us. Pain
Speaker 4: is coming for all of that. That is inevitable. I
Speaker 4: watch it's a really amazing documentary called Stuts, which I told.
Speaker 2: You to watch. Oh, the one with Jonah Hill.
Speaker 4: Did you watch it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he introduces, I need to watch it. Maybe i'll
Speaker 2: watch it tonight. You should well.
Speaker 4: He says that this therapist says that the three constants
Speaker 4: in life is pain, uncertainty, and constant work, which I
Speaker 4: really agree with. But if you wake up and your
Speaker 4: world is non on fire, try and have the best
Speaker 4: fucking day, because your world will be on fire some
Speaker 4: day and you cannot control that, and you will not
Speaker 4: be able to have the best days. So a huge
Speaker 4: thing that just happened when I thought that my mum
Speaker 4: was gonna die, and then coming out the other side
Speaker 4: of that is going, Okay, great it didn't happen. Well,
Speaker 4: I might as well reap all of the joys of life.
Speaker 4: Smell the fucking flowers as I walk around, look at dogs,
Speaker 4: pat them, go after what I want. Every part of
Speaker 4: my life I love, yeah, every part of it. And
Speaker 4: I think that all of us should aim for that
Speaker 4: if we can, for whatever, just in every single way,
Speaker 4: my career, my friends, my home, everything I love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's almost like this.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say artificial optimism.
Speaker 2: I will forced optimism.
Speaker 3: But like this attitude of being like, let's see the
Speaker 3: brighter side here, and I completely agree with you. Like
Speaker 3: one of my friends was saying to me the other
Speaker 3: day that her therapist was like, listen, like, your life
Speaker 3: is going to be painful.
Speaker 2: There are going to be.
Speaker 3: Things that you cannot control, things that are outside of
Speaker 3: your comfort zone, external things like illnesses like death, losing
Speaker 3: your job, but being able to be like what is
Speaker 3: within my realm of control?
Speaker 2: What am I able to actually?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 3: It's almost like a chess game, right, like you can't
Speaker 3: control the other person's moves, but you can control your own.
Speaker 4: And also then finding things that give you a sense
Speaker 4: of fulfillment or ease or peace in all of it.
Speaker 4: The piece is a huge thing for me is in
Speaker 4: all of it how to find a sense of inner
Speaker 4: peace and acceptance. And when everything was really shit last year,
Speaker 4: I was living by the ocean and every single day
Speaker 4: I'd wake up, I'd get my coffee, I'd go and
Speaker 4: put it on my special rock, and I'd go for
Speaker 4: a swim and every time I put my head under
Speaker 4: the water and I came up, I felt like a
Speaker 4: moment of pure joy and catharsis. And then I'd go
Speaker 4: instead of my rock, drink my coffee and just journal.
Speaker 4: And always having that every morning as a morning ritual
Speaker 4: was so healing and gorgeous, and again another gift to
Speaker 4: myself that I could grant myself because in that moment,
Speaker 4: I couldn't control the pain I was feeling and everything
Speaker 4: that was happening. But I could give myself that morning
Speaker 4: every morning, and it put me in a really good place,
Speaker 4: and then you know, the day would take its course
Speaker 4: and who knows, but I think that if you're in
Speaker 4: a space that things are happening and you can't control it,
Speaker 4: finding those little rituals that give you some peace is
Speaker 4: really important.
Speaker 3: I think that's an amazing point to maybe wrap up.
Speaker 3: We've had so many conversations pain and beauty, Pain and beauty. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we're kind of philosophizing, aren't we. We're just getting into
Speaker 3: like very I feel like every time we talk we
Speaker 3: have these like the conversations just go into this like entirely,
Speaker 3: like we could be teaching a university of course, right
Speaker 3: now about hiddenism that stole us, and about the reality
Speaker 3: of pain and whatnot.
Speaker 2: But I do want to sincerely thank you for coming on.
Speaker 4: I think I want to sincerely thank you for having
Speaker 4: me on.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, so much sincerity in one space at
Speaker 2: one time.
Speaker 3: No, it was an amazing It was an amazing experience.
Speaker 3: And I hope that if you've made it this far,
Speaker 3: which I hope many of you have.
Speaker 2: That you've learned something. You've learned something important.
Speaker 3: Maybe you were listening to this as a baby queer
Speaker 3: like you were talking about and who better to take
Speaker 3: advice from than this amazing person.
Speaker 4: But also I take so much, not take so much,
Speaker 4: but I learned so much from queer youth as well.
Speaker 4: I want to say that, like it's not just like, oh,
Speaker 4: the little baby quiers, like they are the future and
Speaker 4: they are teaching us everything and they are.
Speaker 2: On it honestly, Like I feel like this.
Speaker 3: I feel like often when we talk like the narratives
Speaker 3: around the queer community or often, like we said, politicize.
Speaker 3: So it's like really beautiful that you came on and
Speaker 3: we're talking about community and something that I is not
Speaker 3: often recognized by people beyond that space and beyond that
Speaker 3: identity and beyond that community secret.
Speaker 4: It is a.
Speaker 2: Beautiful secret and I'm so glad that you shared it
Speaker 2: with me. I feel very very privileged and very blessed.
Speaker 4: So for listeners, yes, and your listeners, you're in on
Speaker 4: the secret as well.
Speaker 2: Oh little Secret Circle.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for coming on, and if you did
Speaker 3: enjoy this episode, please feel free to leave a five
Speaker 3: star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Whatever you're listening right now,
Speaker 3: follow us on Instagram at that Psychology podcast if you
Speaker 3: want to hear more, I'm sure i'd also tag you therefully.
Speaker 3: Oh you know, you know what's going to happen, So
Speaker 3: if you want to follow along with their work, I
Speaker 3: would really recommend it you can. Maybe you should pin
Speaker 3: that post about your solo Italian dates.
Speaker 4: I had a pin thing.
Speaker 2: Oh it's incredible. I really I want that to be
Speaker 2: like common.
Speaker 4: Knowledge pin things or the Soliday.
Speaker 3: Both.
Speaker 2: Okay, the solo dates.
Speaker 3: I'll give you a tutorial and thank you again for listening,
Speaker 3: and we will see you next week for another episode.