Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Before we get into this episode,
Speaker 1: I do want to let you know that this conversation
Speaker 1: does include discussions of domestic violence and sexual abuse. There
Speaker 1: will be resources in the description of this episode if
Speaker 1: you need or require further help or information, but listener
Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, new listeners, old listeners, wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world today, we have an incredible
Speaker 1: story and incredible guest on the show to share their
Speaker 1: experience with overcoming adversity and hardship, mainly a trauma and
Speaker 1: an event that happened during their twenties.
Speaker 2: I think it's always phenomenal and a good idea to
Speaker 2: view our lives as more than this decade and receive
Speaker 2: the input from someone who has lived through their twenties,
Speaker 2: lived through some incredibly hard things, and come through it
Speaker 2: so that they can teach us, teach us the way
Speaker 2: and show us that there is a path forward. So amy,
Speaker 2: it is so amazing to have you on the show.
Speaker 2: Can you introduce yourself for the audience?
Speaker 3: Oh lord, you know it's funny. I don't get nervous often,
Speaker 3: but I don't know why I'm a little nervous right now.
Speaker 3: That was quite the introduction in such a beautiful, you know,
Speaker 3: space to enter, So thank you. I my name is
Speaker 3: Amy B. Chessler, and I am an author, a podcaster,
Speaker 3: a mom first and foremost, to be honest, I should
Speaker 3: have said that first, and I am a victim advocate.
Speaker 3: I often start by sharing my story by saying I
Speaker 3: am a victim and also a survivor of domestic violence.
Speaker 3: My mother, however, is not She did not survive the
Speaker 3: domestic violence we faced. So just I'll I guess a
Speaker 3: long story short, because I do believe my upbringing led
Speaker 3: to me led me to the culmination of a lot
Speaker 3: of abuse and trauma in my early twenties. But long
Speaker 3: story short, I was raised by a very tenacious, strong
Speaker 3: single mother. I grew up in Calabasas, California, So like
Speaker 3: the Kardashians like, which was a not reality again, Like
Speaker 3: there's really a lot of reality TV made about the place,
Speaker 3: but there's it's not a reality based place. However, I
Speaker 3: was raised by a single mom and we didn't have
Speaker 3: a lot of means. My brother was ostracized there because,
Speaker 3: you know, again we in the eighties nineties, we didn't
Speaker 3: have the cool stuff that everybody else had. We kind
Speaker 3: of were just scraping by. We were latchkey kids, and
Speaker 3: we both got picked on a lot. But he just
Speaker 3: kind of never found a place to fit in. That
Speaker 3: developed and turned into abuse over the years. He scapegoaded
Speaker 3: my mom and I, I believe, for a lot of
Speaker 3: the feelings he was feeling. My dad was never really
Speaker 3: in the picture. In fact, my mom likes to tell
Speaker 3: me I was the last time they had sex, so
Speaker 3: like I was conceived that time, So I never actually
Speaker 3: lived with my father. I guess I was probably a
Speaker 3: lot less affected by his absence because I had never
Speaker 3: even known his presence. My brother was deeply affected by
Speaker 3: it because he left when he was three, So just
Speaker 3: from then on he kind of was an angry ass person.
Speaker 3: He really directed a lot of the anger towards myself
Speaker 3: and my mom. He abused me in many different ways
Speaker 3: over the years. The abuse started around when I was
Speaker 3: probably ten or eleven. I say that like the abuse
Speaker 3: was environmental where he would get really angry and punch
Speaker 3: holes in the walls. He was really volatile, he was
Speaker 3: really moody. Then actually the abuse became sexual and he
Speaker 3: sexually abused me as a child. That was when I
Speaker 3: was around twelve, and it took me decades to figure
Speaker 3: out what he had done because his abuse was so shrewd.
Speaker 3: And I share, like I don't generally like to share that,
Speaker 3: like the intimate details of it live because I write
Speaker 3: about it more than anything. Because again, as much as
Speaker 3: I digest all this trauma for other not for content
Speaker 3: and awareness and all that, I get to choose the
Speaker 3: boundaries of that, So my boundary generally. But yeah, that
Speaker 3: was extremely devastating. It kind of manifested when that ended.
Speaker 3: A year later, when I was around thirteen, he became
Speaker 3: extremely violent and angry, ended up dropping out of high school,
Speaker 3: and ended up going in and out of the army
Speaker 3: a couple times, the US Army, and just really could
Speaker 3: never find a place in life. My mom led him
Speaker 3: in and out. An abusive relationship is really hard. We
Speaker 3: know the toxicity, we know the cyclical nature of it.
Speaker 3: Now there's a lot more language we have than when
Speaker 3: we did in two thousand and seven, when at the
Speaker 3: height of our abuse. Eventually, unfortunately, the abuse got so
Speaker 3: bad he threatened my mom's life several times and eventually
Speaker 3: killed her on September twenty fifth, two thousand and seven.
Speaker 3: The exact date actually became America's National Murder Victims Remembrance Day,
Speaker 3: like her exact murder date, but that was coincidental. I
Speaker 3: didn't find that out for many years. However, that that day,
Speaker 3: after a heated argument, he stole her life. I came
Speaker 3: home to find her, even though he had told me
Speaker 3: he had killed her. On my drive home, i'd reached him,
Speaker 3: he told me not to go home. I didn't really
Speaker 3: believe him because of the nature of his abuse and
Speaker 3: his kind of cycle of behavior. It was so up
Speaker 3: and down. He would sometimes joke about stuff like that.
Speaker 3: I know that sounds really weird, and I've gotten a
Speaker 3: lot of slack on about that on the Internet because
Speaker 3: people just don't understand how that's possible for me to
Speaker 3: underhear that and think he was joking. But when you
Speaker 3: live in constant abuse or fear, sometimes those things are jokes.
Speaker 3: And that's a mechanism of coercive control that I've now
Speaker 3: you know, identified with time. But so when I was
Speaker 3: twenty two my brother murdered my mother. It was shocking,
Speaker 3: it was gutting. It threw me for a major damn loop.
Speaker 3: I found many mechanisms of healing afterwards, some healthy, some not.
Speaker 3: And now that I am thirty eight, I have a
Speaker 3: grand perspective of our experiences. My degree going into that.
Speaker 3: You know, my brother actually killed her two weeks before,
Speaker 3: two weeks after I graduated college, and my degree is
Speaker 3: in psychology, so I actually went on in all of
Speaker 3: that in my healing, went on to start my MFT.
Speaker 3: I did drop out because I realized it just wasn't
Speaker 3: exactly where I wanted to be. But I think I
Speaker 3: utilize psychology, and obviously I utilize my own healing journey
Speaker 3: and my work and my advocacy and my sharing in
Speaker 3: my endeavors, and it's just, yeah, it's been a bit
Speaker 3: of a mind fuck the journey that I've gone on
Speaker 3: since then.
Speaker 2: I can imagine, and all of that is just so terrible.
Speaker 2: Obviously we've spoken about it before, but it's just every
Speaker 2: time you tell me, I literally just get like this
Speaker 2: terrible feeling in my stomach that you had to live
Speaker 2: through that because it's yeah, no words, really no words.
Speaker 3: And I like to add too, is that the nature
Speaker 3: of my podcast, not to plug it so earlier talk
Speaker 3: about it, but the nature of my podcast it's called
Speaker 3: what Came Next? Because quite literally, people think that victims,
Speaker 3: endeavors or journeys or hardships kind of end with the
Speaker 3: trauma and then we get to heal. But the idea
Speaker 3: is that there's always something coming next. So we'd like
Speaker 3: to think that, like, like you said, thank you for
Speaker 3: acknowledging that, however, the trauma didn't even end there with him. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, the nature of our and I think it's
Speaker 3: important to know that, like the nature of our criminal
Speaker 3: justice system allows for I think I believe the correct
Speaker 3: term is litigation abuse. So my brother was caught that evening.
Speaker 3: He was admittedly guilty, but it took four and a
Speaker 3: half years to convict him. And the last ditch effort
Speaker 3: he made before he actually got convicted or actually pled
Speaker 3: no contest to second degree murder in two thousand and eleven,
Speaker 3: I believe, was he tried to hire a hitman to
Speaker 3: kill me. He tried to pin the murder on me,
Speaker 3: say I planned everything I like promised him a huge
Speaker 3: lump of money that I didn't have, Like I don't
Speaker 3: know where he was coming up with any of this shit,
Speaker 3: and basically told this inmate in jail that was getting
Speaker 3: out or you know, potentially being released, like, hey, my
Speaker 3: sister did all this shit? Can you can you try
Speaker 3: to stalk her? He created like a stalking plan for him,
Speaker 3: and then he said, like off the record, like hey,
Speaker 3: if you don't do it, I mean, if she doesn't
Speaker 3: do it, if she doesn't admit to what what I'm
Speaker 3: saying she's should admit to, just wipe her out basically,
Speaker 3: So that was like a continued abuse from within jail.
Speaker 3: He eventually pled guilty and then I only got nine
Speaker 3: and a half years before his first parole hearing, And
Speaker 3: those nine and a half years I kind of had
Speaker 3: that like looming death threat over my head. I guess
Speaker 3: I had always thought that like maybe I'd given to
Speaker 3: I give him a lot of power in those years.
Speaker 3: I think that I shouldn't have that. I didn't have
Speaker 3: the tools to not give like I was definitely so
Speaker 3: bring with some severe PTSD lingering after all of that,
Speaker 3: So I think I don't even think I started healing
Speaker 3: until twenty eleven, when I was about twenty six, which
Speaker 3: is my mom's lucky number. So there we go.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's sweet, that's very sweet.
Speaker 3: Because I never really thought about that.
Speaker 1: Look at that.
Speaker 2: Twenty six is a special number, honestly, and because you
Speaker 2: were twenty two when it happened, So that's when you
Speaker 2: said this before, but that's you were just still basically
Speaker 2: a child, you know, technically an adult, but it's well
Speaker 2: still in that formative decade.
Speaker 3: Well, the ironic thing is is that my brother always
Speaker 3: got the comfort of a youth offender status because he
Speaker 3: killed my mom when he was twenty five years old
Speaker 3: in nine months instead of twenty six. Twenty six in
Speaker 3: America is the number that we I guess the law
Speaker 3: sees your brain firm, fully formed, and so I guess
Speaker 3: now I'm putting all these pieces together. I didn't even
Speaker 3: realize I was twenty six when he was technically sentenced.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of interesting, all these like alignments. But yeah,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of different, little weird alignments that I've
Speaker 3: gone through similar traumas at the same time that my
Speaker 3: mom did, or just similar kind of like, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 2: Grief and trauma never really does leave the body, as
Speaker 2: we know. So it's just amazing to still see you
Speaker 2: doing really well and your show is incredible. But I
Speaker 2: do want to ask you, know this, this is a
Speaker 2: show about your twenties. Yeah, this is a major, I
Speaker 2: would say, defining event and defining experience of your whole life,
Speaker 2: but your twenties life, and it culminated. Yeah, So looking
Speaker 2: back on that, what would you what would you tell
Speaker 2: her now, this this young person who's just lived through
Speaker 2: possibly the most life changing thing to ever happen to her.
Speaker 3: Oh goodness, well that's a really big question. You're making
Speaker 3: me tear up. But I think a lot of abuse
Speaker 3: survivors have will carry a lot of shame and guilt,
Speaker 3: and as much as I don't anymore at all, I've
Speaker 3: done a lot of hard work in a deep digging,
Speaker 3: I think I would just tell her that I love
Speaker 3: her and that none of it is their fault. I
Speaker 3: never shared the about the sexual abuse of my mom,
Speaker 3: so I always thought when it happened, initially that when
Speaker 3: I was twenty two and my mom was murdered, I
Speaker 3: initially immediately thought, God, if I had reported that my
Speaker 3: mom would be alive today. Because she would have created
Speaker 3: a harder boundary with my brother, knowing how bad the
Speaker 3: abuse was towards me. I always she was my fiercest advocate,
Speaker 3: so I thought, in not advocating for myself, I didn't
Speaker 3: advocate for her too. I have had to. There's this
Speaker 3: very like religious tenant that people have to forgive their abusers.
Speaker 3: I don't believe in that. That's some bullshit. I believe
Speaker 3: in forgiving your younger self, in allowing quote unquote, although
Speaker 3: that is not really allowing you are being abused, but
Speaker 3: that is the sentiment that usually that is a victim.
Speaker 3: You know, we think, oh gosh, I've allowed this. I
Speaker 3: have to allow healing and forgiveness to that young girl
Speaker 3: who didn't have the tools and resources to establish the
Speaker 3: boundaries that she needed. And that's what I give myself
Speaker 3: every day. I also something I say to that young lady.
Speaker 3: I talk to her every day. Quite honestly, you know
Speaker 3: that sounds crazy, but I doesn't. Well. I believe in
Speaker 3: being mindful, and I believe in having healthy schemas in
Speaker 3: your head. The way you talk to yourself is of
Speaker 3: utmost importance, and the way I talk to myself at
Speaker 3: that time was not healthy. A lot of young women
Speaker 3: in the world, and a lot of young people in general,
Speaker 3: not just women, do not speak health.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I don't think our society in general breeds too much
Speaker 3: mental health innately. And so I constantly talk to her
Speaker 3: by healing how I speak about myself, and in that,
Speaker 3: I'm speaking to her too. And I'm just like, I
Speaker 3: tell myself a badass all the time. I say, I
Speaker 3: forgive you, I love you. You are safe. Now, look
Speaker 3: at you, Look how far you've come.
Speaker 2: I love the tenets of Healing your Inner Child, and
Speaker 2: I did an entire episode on it. It's my favorite
Speaker 2: episode because I think there is this misconception that it's
Speaker 2: really wishy washy, that it's a pseudoscience. But positive self
Speaker 2: talk and healing your Inner Child is so based in
Speaker 2: so much psychological theory. It goes back for decades, and
Speaker 2: I just think it's a beautiful practice to visualize your
Speaker 2: younger self and care for them because they're still within you.
Speaker 2: That version of you has not disappeared. You're not replaced
Speaker 2: each a year that you age. So I really really
Speaker 2: like that you brought that up. I have to ask something, though,
Speaker 2: do you think that a part of part of your
Speaker 2: struggle was also survivor's guilt, or the fact that you
Speaker 2: felt that you could have saved your.
Speaker 3: No, I never really thought about that, to be honest,
Speaker 3: I know that sounds a little callous or selfish, perhaps,
Speaker 3: but I knew the mechanism of abuse was all my
Speaker 3: brother's hands. I had seen his volatility in his violence
Speaker 3: for so long. I knew that was all his right.
Speaker 3: Like I didn't really, I didn't think. I never actually thought,
Speaker 3: because I always thought if I had been there that
Speaker 3: night and he had lost it, I'd be dead too,
Speaker 3: to be honest, So I get to carry on, and
Speaker 3: I don't have survivors guilt. I have survivor's responsibility, perhaps
Speaker 3: in making her death not in vain, in making my
Speaker 3: efforts heard, and trying to change whenever I can, by
Speaker 3: using our story as an example. My mom was a teacher.
Speaker 3: I used to be a teacher before I turned into
Speaker 3: tell and actually, well, I had my own kids. But
Speaker 3: I also was like in my having my children, I
Speaker 3: knew I had a lot to heal in my ear.
Speaker 3: I had kids in my twenties as well. I was
Speaker 3: twenty eight when I had children, so that is super
Speaker 3: formative too. I never thought I would have children in
Speaker 3: my twenties. I had so many conversations with my mom
Speaker 3: growing up, saying I want not have kids until I'm
Speaker 3: at least thirty. And then I went through this massive trauma,
Speaker 3: and all I wanted to do was recreate a healthy
Speaker 3: family system, or not even recreate, because I don't think
Speaker 3: we ever had that with him. Maybe when we were
Speaker 3: very young, but my brother was just always, always beyond
Speaker 3: reach for her and abused her. It was a really
Speaker 3: toxic relationship. So I think my twenties and being free
Speaker 3: from the murder I mean from my brother unfortunately, at
Speaker 3: the loss of my mom, really it knocked me for
Speaker 3: a loop. It was fucking traumatic, beyond belief. What I
Speaker 3: saw I wouldn't wish on any of my worst enemies,
Speaker 3: but it changed my life. Ultimately, I've got freed from
Speaker 3: my lifetime abuser. I finally got So Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's big cost. There's very layered, it's very layered, very nuanced.
Speaker 2: I just imagine, I just can't imagine what it would
Speaker 2: be like to be in your head stepping through all
Speaker 2: those different scenarios and all those different outcomes and consequences.
Speaker 3: And I will say sixteen years later. Obviously, the way
Speaker 3: I talk about it and navigate it is a bit
Speaker 3: different than I was then. I couldn't talk about it
Speaker 3: and navigate it. I was surviving, so I was Yeah,
Speaker 3: So it's just definitely interesting. The perspective I've gained.
Speaker 2: It's very intricate, And I wonder you've already mentioned this
Speaker 2: about how it changed your life. Really and now you
Speaker 2: do so much work around victim and survive, the advocacy,
Speaker 2: and you have this entire show that is dedicated to
Speaker 2: extending the story or sharing I guess more of the
Speaker 2: side of the story that isn't always made available. But
Speaker 2: how do you think it's kind of changed your perspective
Speaker 2: and your mindset on life? Do you think that it
Speaker 2: obviously has had an impact, but in what way?
Speaker 3: You hit me so deeply with that question. When I
Speaker 3: saw it, quite honestly, it changed my life forever. Like
Speaker 3: we talk about the brain development, right, our brains are
Speaker 3: not entirely developed at twenty two, So I saw the
Speaker 3: most traumatic thing I could ever see in my life
Speaker 3: at twenty two. I experienced extreme abuse in the couple
Speaker 3: years before, right when I was around twenty, like, it
Speaker 3: became very extreme, So that abuse. That event changed the
Speaker 3: way I literally react to everything. I mean, I watch
Speaker 3: movies differently. This was a continuing argument in my marriage
Speaker 3: while I was still married. Was my ex husband never
Speaker 3: really kind of understood where I was coming from. When
Speaker 3: I would watch a bloody movie, I would cover my
Speaker 3: eyes or I would have him turn it off or something,
Speaker 3: and he'd be like, come on, it's just fake. And
Speaker 3: I always would say, if once you see it for real,
Speaker 3: you don't want to see it for fake. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: he never kind of I know, I understand the instance
Speaker 3: of it. There's a lot of time back over there too.
Speaker 3: I was like, I met him when I was I
Speaker 3: met him like two months after my mom was murdered,
Speaker 3: so and here came and a gentleman quote unquote that
Speaker 3: was like very much love bombing me. I now know
Speaker 3: a lot of mechanisms of coercive control and emotional abuse
Speaker 3: to a certain degree from a lot of my relationships.
Speaker 3: I will say that. But it changed the way I
Speaker 3: just literally see things, my perspective on everything violence in
Speaker 3: the media. Like I was saying true crime content, I'm
Speaker 3: my mom and I growing up I always loved true crime.
Speaker 3: Not that I hate that statement because you can't love
Speaker 3: true crime like you can love the content in true crime.
Speaker 3: I don't love crime basically, Yes, was fascinated.
Speaker 2: By the stories. Maybe that's why I was.
Speaker 3: My mom and I both were right that all of
Speaker 3: her books in her shelves were true crime books. So
Speaker 3: now on the other side of things, and once I
Speaker 3: was healed to a large degree, I could consume those stories,
Speaker 3: and really it made me see everything differently, even the
Speaker 3: true crime space that I had always really been interested in.
Speaker 3: I navigate my relationships differently. I'm triggered by different things
Speaker 3: than other people are. I had PTSD for a long time,
Speaker 3: so even just when I go to concerts, it's very unnerving.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about shootings all the time, Like the America's
Speaker 3: state right now, the amount of shootings and gun violence.
Speaker 3: It's I literally just navigate world differently. I know, like
Speaker 3: I'll literally drop my kids off at school, wave to
Speaker 3: them through the gate, and the mom that I'm standing
Speaker 3: next to their i'm friends with, I'll be like, I
Speaker 3: just hope there isn't a shooting today, and she looks
Speaker 3: at me like, what the fluck, And I'm like, I
Speaker 3: know that they are in the same America as I am,
Speaker 3: but I have known a violence like that. It was
Speaker 3: in my home, so for me to see it replayed
Speaker 3: all the time everywhere, it is highly triggering for me
Speaker 3: to even just to persist in my country. So it's
Speaker 3: just a very layered state to be in. And it's
Speaker 3: a forever state. You said, grief is to a certain
Speaker 3: degree forever. Trauma can be too. Major trauma, especially I
Speaker 3: think before a certain point in your life is forever
Speaker 3: to a certain degree. That is not too a establish
Speaker 3: a quote unquote, which is my favorite least favorite statement
Speaker 3: in the world. And when you google victim, I mean,
Speaker 3: when you go to Instagram and you type in victim,
Speaker 3: the first thing that pops up is victim mentality. I
Speaker 3: hate that, but I'm not perpetuating like I think that's
Speaker 3: thet scummiest term on the planet because victim victimhood, when
Speaker 3: you're talking about extreme trauma or persistent trauma over the years,
Speaker 3: that is kind of forever and it is a not
Speaker 3: a mentality, but a state, to be honest, when you're
Speaker 3: that triggered. PTSD can be forever to a certain degree.
Speaker 3: I see PTSD, I mean that's generally what it's called so.
Speaker 2: Complex post traumatic stress disorder, and I think often people
Speaker 2: associate that with like, oh, you have to have gone
Speaker 2: to war or experienced like like yeah. I think we
Speaker 2: often think about it in terms of veterans, but there
Speaker 2: is so much everyday trauma that happens in the world
Speaker 2: that is going to impact all of us in a
Speaker 2: different way. I do want to go back though, to
Speaker 2: this idea that we mentioned at the very beginning, which
Speaker 2: is adversity and hardship and how we overcome that. Now.
Speaker 2: I think everyone in some capacity sits on this spectrum.
Speaker 2: Everyone experiences something. No one goes through life unharmed or
Speaker 2: escaping kind of some level of adversity.
Speaker 3: And what might be traumatic might what might not be
Speaker 3: traumatic to you might be super traumatic to me. So
Speaker 3: that is another level of that too. Sorry, go on, no,
Speaker 3: I just I agree with that.
Speaker 2: I always say that trauma is subjective. That's like a
Speaker 2: massive thing that we stay on this show. But how
Speaker 2: would you approach hardship? You know, a massive part of
Speaker 2: my audiences people under the age of thirty, who are
Speaker 2: probably experiencing some of them are be experiencing the things
Speaker 2: that are going to old to their life right now.
Speaker 2: Looking for answers being like, how do I get through this?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: How do you approach how did you approach this experience
Speaker 2: in this journey?
Speaker 3: Wow? So I actually wrote in my book and this
Speaker 3: is a silly but it's a silly anecdote, but it's
Speaker 3: from my childhood and it kind of summarizes how I
Speaker 3: take on anything because it's what my mom left me with,
Speaker 3: Like I honestly think the main I had many adults
Speaker 3: in my life that invested in me and made sure
Speaker 3: I was successful along the way, but my mom was
Speaker 3: the main. Absolutely. She left me with so many lessons,
Speaker 3: but I think one of the biggest ones was and
Speaker 3: it's something I repeated over and over and over again
Speaker 3: throughout my life, and it's how I get through everything.
Speaker 3: Is that I remember. I think I always wanted to be.
Speaker 3: I know I'm a leader, but nobody in my youth
Speaker 3: saw that, Like none of my peers saw that. So
Speaker 3: every year I would always run for office in school
Speaker 3: and I would always lose, even into high school, even
Speaker 3: into college, believe it or not, Like every single year
Speaker 3: I ran and still run that I lost. And every time,
Speaker 3: you know I did, every time I lost my mom
Speaker 3: and I maybe took off a year here or there
Speaker 3: or whatever. But like my mom would say, Okay, so
Speaker 3: if you lost this time, what are you going to
Speaker 3: run for next year? And that was literally how my
Speaker 3: mom trained my brain. So when I she was gone
Speaker 3: at twenty two, I was literally left with okay, so
Speaker 3: what are you gonna do next? It wasn't like she
Speaker 3: she just trained me that you always keep going. That
Speaker 3: tenacity was like the main theme in my entire life
Speaker 3: that she always left me with and without her reminders
Speaker 3: and without her you know, firing up my But like
Speaker 3: that was left on me when I hit twenty two
Speaker 3: and I was left without her, And that's what just
Speaker 3: what I did. I kind of perseverance and tenacity I
Speaker 3: think has a lot to do with self talk. I
Speaker 3: think it. And even when it was sometimes negative, when
Speaker 3: I felt ineffective at times, or or I lacked the
Speaker 3: confidence to do something I really wanted to do, I
Speaker 3: still had that voice saying, but you're gonna try because
Speaker 3: you've already dealt with the I already dealt with the
Speaker 3: worst thing I could possibly have happened, anything else, like
Speaker 3: rejection letters for writing fair nothing. I just saw my
Speaker 3: mom murdered. Like they're like, you know that is literally
Speaker 3: how I got through. I know that sounds a little
Speaker 3: twisted and dark, but I literally got through by saying
Speaker 3: that was the worst that could have ever happened. The
Speaker 3: rest has to be better. And it's not that I
Speaker 3: feel that the world owes me anything. I know trauma
Speaker 3: will still happen to me in the future, and it
Speaker 3: has in my life since, but it's put things into perspective.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes we think how people will ask me,
Speaker 3: how did you survive? And my only question is the
Speaker 3: only alternative is not, and you just get up, You
Speaker 3: put one foot in front of the other. I'm finally
Speaker 3: in a place right now where I can be really mindful.
Speaker 3: I think I just gave myself grace in all of
Speaker 3: those years, and I maybe wasn't as my I had PTSD.
Speaker 3: Like I said, that makes you no mindful. You can't
Speaker 3: live in the moment. You live in your anxiety and
Speaker 3: your fear and your panic and your all of that.
Speaker 3: But the way I got through is just literally knowing
Speaker 3: that there is better. The world had shown me better.
Speaker 3: My mom she showed me better, teachers had showed me better.
Speaker 3: I'd shown myself better and all of that too, No
Speaker 3: matter what was going on at home that like all
Speaker 3: of my hard work paid off, and I like, I
Speaker 3: think the other thing my mom always left me with
Speaker 3: was like, the only way to fail is not try.
Speaker 3: So the only way to fail at life or to
Speaker 3: just is just to give up. And I couldn't give up,
Speaker 3: Like I Yeah, that's I know. It's like Also, obviously
Speaker 3: therapy really helped. Yeah, And I have to be honest,
Speaker 3: though not all therapy helped. Not all therapists are helpful.
Speaker 3: I think it's the right therapist. I definitely think that
Speaker 3: there's this fallacy that any therapy helps. I've really been
Speaker 3: to some harmful therapists from anything really like benet a
Speaker 3: benevolent harmful where like the second meeting, like obviously, therapists
Speaker 3: often ask you what brings you here. Obviously, one of
Speaker 3: the first things I say is my mom's murder. And
Speaker 3: the second interview with this one woman, she said, okay,
Speaker 3: so how's your relationship with your mom? Do you talk
Speaker 3: to her daily or weekly? And I was like, wait,
Speaker 3: hold on. That was harmful to me because she couldn't
Speaker 3: even remember who I was at a certain degree. Other
Speaker 3: there have been other ones that have been harmful in
Speaker 3: other ways, but the point is, is that a healthy
Speaker 3: therapist that gives you tools and doesn't make you think
Speaker 3: that you have to live by going to them every
Speaker 3: week for the rest of your life. Oh yeah, is
Speaker 3: a great space. I think that knowing therapy is a
Speaker 3: space for reflection and resources to get through something. But
Speaker 3: it's not an end all be all. I don't think
Speaker 3: anything can be an end all be all. I exercise
Speaker 3: has always been a really great resource for me in
Speaker 3: getting through anything. In my twenties, I honestly coped a
Speaker 3: little unhealthy, like I dealt with not a diagnosed eating disorder,
Speaker 3: but I definitely had disordered eating at times. That was
Speaker 3: something I controlled when I couldn't control other things, which
Speaker 3: is a big.
Speaker 2: A big thing. A big think to disordered eating is
Speaker 2: when you've gone through trauma.
Speaker 3: So absolutely, and I saw that as more of a symptom.
Speaker 3: I was also plagued with really bad stomach aches around
Speaker 3: that time too, because of all my anxiety. There was
Speaker 3: no diagnosis. I couldn't I wasn't gluten intolerant, I wasn't this,
Speaker 3: I wasn't that. So I do believe I eventually, like
Speaker 3: you know, I just I got I got a divorce.
Speaker 3: I escaped some toxic situations. I put in the time
Speaker 3: and the work in healing and I thrived. So just
Speaker 3: like investing in myself, I think self care has been
Speaker 3: one of the most And self care can be legal care,
Speaker 3: it can be therapeutic care, like in a you know,
Speaker 3: a regimented therapy therapy. It could be like you know,
Speaker 3: one on one talk therapy. It could be writing my book,
Speaker 3: and any of those things. I you know, I started
Speaker 3: my book really young to in my twenties. It took
Speaker 3: me a long time to finish, but like all of
Speaker 3: these things were practices I needed.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 3: I started writing and doing live pieces to share my
Speaker 3: grief with people that were also grieving or people that
Speaker 3: were mothers, and all of that really showed me I
Speaker 3: wasn't alone and that has been a big saving grace
Speaker 3: as well. Is community building a community around not like
Speaker 3: off of the trauma, but building a community around or
Speaker 3: surrounding the trauma to kind of encapsulate it and to
Speaker 3: put finite borders around it and to heal together.
Speaker 2: Which I think is remarkable. Community is such a healing force.
Speaker 2: And you know, you lost your mother on that day,
Speaker 2: but also you you know, your brother sounds like an
Speaker 2: awful person is an awful person, but you also lost
Speaker 2: him in the sense that like suddenly there was no family.
Speaker 3: I had no family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whole family, Yeah gone. And I think that building
Speaker 2: community is something I say to like everyone, it feeling
Speaker 2: less alarned just makes everything seem more manageable.
Speaker 3: And I should have said that from the beginning. You said,
Speaker 3: how did you get through? I honestly, in my book,
Speaker 3: I explained how I got through those four years just
Speaker 3: to convict him, and in it, the recurring theme I
Speaker 3: would say is the people my mom left me with,
Speaker 3: the community that I built through my work, through her,
Speaker 3: through everything, through school, through my sorority, everything that all
Speaker 3: was literally what carried me when I couldn't carry myself.
Speaker 3: Those people were there. And then, you know, once I
Speaker 3: started sharing my story more publicly, the people that reach
Speaker 3: out to me and say I'm a victim of sibling
Speaker 3: abuse as well. You know, in my research, I found
Speaker 3: out like fifty percent of American kids are affected by
Speaker 3: sibling abuse in some manner. And I'm sure you talk
Speaker 3: about abuse in the in the definition of it at times,
Speaker 3: but the abuse, you know, abuse can be anything where
Speaker 3: they're using a position of power or you know, to
Speaker 3: manipulate a behavior, so that is you know, emotional, physical,
Speaker 3: you know. And I get messages all the time from
Speaker 3: people saying I was abused by my brother, or women
Speaker 3: who say thank you for showing me what my son
Speaker 3: could potentially do, and just the allowance to know that
Speaker 3: we're not alone is huge. I write back to everybody
Speaker 3: that writes to me, and even like, well, I'll get
Speaker 3: to the bed, Like even when my book came out,
Speaker 3: my uncle hit me up. My dad is my dad's brother,
Speaker 3: and he said, thank you for naming something that I
Speaker 3: went through at the hands of your dad, like he
Speaker 3: and I had known that he had never shared that
Speaker 3: with me, but my mom had told me similar like
Speaker 3: stories about it, and so I help like this was
Speaker 3: in within my home. But in the messages I write
Speaker 3: back to people that send me like, you know, thank you,
Speaker 3: I went through this. I'm so glad to know I'm
Speaker 3: not alone. I know, and I write a variation of
Speaker 3: this to everybody, but bab like, my heart breaks for
Speaker 3: people who go through something similar, but it gives each
Speaker 3: of us a little bit of solace and knowing that
Speaker 3: we aren't alone and that it's literally in the sharing
Speaker 3: is the lifting. When you share a load with someone,
Speaker 3: they're literally helping you lift it up. So that is
Speaker 3: what community did for me too, is that when I shared,
Speaker 3: when I was roused, I had someone to go to.
Speaker 3: I utilized friends, therapists, family. I'm so blessed to have family.
Speaker 3: I mean, oh my god, that's massive. Yeah, so many good,
Speaker 3: many good thing. Yes, I'm very blessed, which sounds very
Speaker 3: weird to say that, but iView about my mom's murder.
Speaker 3: But yeah, well it just feels so dichotomous. But I
Speaker 3: two truths could be true exactly.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with that. I want to ask you
Speaker 2: one final question before we wrap up, and I think
Speaker 2: the big thing that I take away from talking to
Speaker 2: you is that people who experience these things should be
Speaker 2: in child to their stories. It's not for other people
Speaker 2: to interpret. It's not for other people to use as entertainment.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously there is a core element of education.
Speaker 2: But if we as the audience, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: include myself in that as well, because listening to you
Speaker 2: speak is just incredible, But if we as the audience
Speaker 2: could take away one thing from your story, what would
Speaker 2: you like it to be?
Speaker 3: Well, First of all, thank you for interpreting what you
Speaker 3: did thus far. That was a great takeaway you said.
Speaker 3: You took away that each person should be in charge
Speaker 3: of their own narrative and have the power to tell it.
Speaker 3: That's I absolutely agree. What I was thinking is actually,
Speaker 3: like I mentioned at the beginning of this, you asked
Speaker 3: how April seventeenth went, which was actually my brother's final sentencing,
Speaker 3: which just happened out of nowhere, and at the end
Speaker 3: of my victim impact statement, which I almost didn't get
Speaker 3: to make because he pled guilty and then said, if
Speaker 3: she makes the statement, I'm going to retract all my guilties.
Speaker 3: Like he literally fuck tried to fuck with me with that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and the judge kind of putting him in his place
Speaker 3: a little bit, but then he made he talked through
Speaker 3: my whole victim of back statement. But whatever, I like,
Speaker 3: I was a badass. I just kept pausing every time
Speaker 3: he talked, and even though the judge wanted me to
Speaker 3: keep going, I did not. But at the end of it,
Speaker 3: I said, and that's what the takeaway will be A
Speaker 3: long story short, I'm sorry, I'm a talker. The thing
Speaker 3: that I want everybody to take away from my story,
Speaker 3: from mom's story, from the trauma that we faced, from
Speaker 3: everything that's ensued after is that, and especially from my
Speaker 3: brother's actions. It's that one person's actions can deeply affect
Speaker 3: someone else's trajectory. We see that all the time, right,
Speaker 3: like in a million different ways. But I actually saw
Speaker 3: that recently at that hearing on April seventeen, which I
Speaker 3: actually like, give a full rundown. I'm going to release
Speaker 3: an episode in a little while about like the update
Speaker 3: but and how that changed my life for.
Speaker 2: The know, this was your So your brother's final hearing
Speaker 2: date was on April seventeenth, so it was.
Speaker 3: A sentencing for a new crime. They also went backwards
Speaker 3: and gave me some more justice for other for my
Speaker 3: mom's murder as well as another crime, the death threat
Speaker 3: he was threatening me. So at that sentencing, my last
Speaker 3: sayment was again I said, like my brother's actions proof
Speaker 3: one person's choices can mentally affect someone else's trajectory. But
Speaker 3: the DA proved me that that to me too that day.
Speaker 3: He believed in me. He took made a little bit
Speaker 3: of more effort. He did, he went a little bit
Speaker 3: of above and beyond his job, and he changed my
Speaker 3: life forever. And I think that just knowing that your
Speaker 3: actions carry much weight, even you listening, everybody. I didn't
Speaker 3: mean to say even you, especially you listening, because you're
Speaker 3: listening and leaving yourself open to change and evolving. But
Speaker 3: everybody's actions carry immense weight, and we all have the
Speaker 3: great ability to change things. And I really do challenge
Speaker 3: everyone to step outside a little bit of their comfort
Speaker 3: zone and do more for others and try to just
Speaker 3: you know, go that extra little mile. It might make
Speaker 3: a huge fucking difference for people. I love that mentality,
Speaker 3: and I just think that even with mental health and everything,
Speaker 3: you know, people that might be struggling, being there for friends, whatever,
Speaker 3: it is, just doing a little bit more giving that
Speaker 3: compliment when you see somebody walk by, you don't know
Speaker 3: what their day's been like, whatever it is. I do
Speaker 3: believe in the power if individual I mean I believe
Speaker 3: in individual power. I believe in you the listener.
Speaker 2: Amy. I love that you have ended the show on
Speaker 2: that note, because I do just think it's like the
Speaker 2: most beautiful trajectory of this story right from the start
Speaker 2: of this episode, hearing what you went through and not
Speaker 2: just what happened on that day that your mother passed away,
Speaker 2: but everything from childhood to now and the fact that
Speaker 2: you're saying to us, just do that little bit extra
Speaker 2: for people, because people are good and think about others.
Speaker 2: It's just so beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And I
Speaker 2: just think the theme of this, the topic that we
Speaker 2: you know, this all links to, is like overcoming adversity
Speaker 2: and hardship and your story through that, and it's just really,
Speaker 2: I don't know, really inspiring to me to hear that
Speaker 2: you can still have that mind frame and mindset and
Speaker 2: that you've done so much good stuff for the world.
Speaker 2: Like I can't wait to watch that vice.
Speaker 3: Is it a documentary or yeah, you know, there's just
Speaker 3: a tiny blip. I don't even know if I'll be
Speaker 3: in it, although they did ask for like how to
Speaker 3: spell my name, so I think they. But my friends
Speaker 3: who are actually releasing a podcast tomorrow, they're kind of coinciding.
Speaker 3: They are kind of the main focuses of the of
Speaker 3: the documentary, but it kind of goes through and like
Speaker 3: they just actually they interview a whole bunch of really
Speaker 3: famous I hate to say that victims from and just
Speaker 3: kind of get their take on how the whole genre. Go, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess it's today for you, though.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and watch it after this. Actually,
Speaker 2: I'm going to sit down and watch it and probably
Speaker 2: send it to some of my friends because I think
Speaker 2: that is it's just it's interesting. I think sometimes we
Speaker 2: need to be a little bit more conscious about how
Speaker 2: we consume our media. And I think often the time
Speaker 2: we think like, I don't I want to spend less
Speaker 2: time on my phone or YadA, YadA YadA, But it's
Speaker 2: actually like sometimes a bit more ethical than that. So
Speaker 2: I think this is it's just an interesting, a really interesting,
Speaker 2: fascinating perspective that I'm glad you were able to share.
Speaker 2: And I want to thank you very sincerely for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you to be honest, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: opening your platform to my story, to leaving your heart
Speaker 3: open and listening. Thank you just for the thoughtful questions
Speaker 3: and for the care through this whole process. That's a
Speaker 3: whole nother facet. I know this is not a true
Speaker 3: crime podcast, but you know we talked a lot about ethics,
Speaker 3: So thank you for contributing. Whether you are a true
Speaker 3: crime content or not, you are an ethical show that
Speaker 3: Kate creates a safe space for victims like me, and
Speaker 3: I just appreciate you doing that and contributing such a
Speaker 3: thoughtful show to the conversation and such awareness.
Speaker 2: So that is you the big the biggest compliment I've
Speaker 2: ever received. I'm never going to forget that. That's oh
Speaker 2: my god, when having such an emotional time over here.
Speaker 2: And where can people find you? I think that everyone
Speaker 2: needs to listen to your show? Can you can you
Speaker 2: plug yourself a little bit? Please?
Speaker 3: Yes? Thank you? So personally you can find me on
Speaker 3: all platforms at Amy M y b As and Boy
Speaker 3: and Chessler that's my last name, c H E. S
Speaker 3: l E R. And then my podcast which recently came out,
Speaker 3: and again I kind of go through history and I'm
Speaker 3: I'm interviewing victims of relatively notorious crimes or just crimes
Speaker 3: that happened consistently and talking about how navigating their after story,
Speaker 3: basically navigating the after the trauma, how it affects them
Speaker 3: to share their story in the media, how you know,
Speaker 3: how just like navigating the legal system, how that's affected
Speaker 3: their trajectory. And that show is called What Came Next.
Speaker 3: You can find What Came Next on your preferred podcasting platform.
Speaker 3: I know I mentioned my book before. The title is
Speaker 3: Working for Justice. One Family's Tale of murder, betrayal and Healing,
Speaker 3: and that honestly, that was fourteen years in the making
Speaker 3: and I can't go through an interview without mentioning it
Speaker 3: because I think it was. It's a beautiful tribute to
Speaker 3: my mom. I actually include some diary entries of my
Speaker 3: mom's in throughout the book, so I just think like
Speaker 3: it's important again, like you said, to give victims voices,
Speaker 3: and I think I did that even in my mom
Speaker 3: in the books.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, Amy for coming on sharing your story.
Speaker 2: As always, if you think there is a friend, a
Speaker 2: family member, a colleague who would benefit from Amy's perspective
Speaker 2: and what she had to say today, feel free to
Speaker 2: share this episode with them. She was so generous and
Speaker 2: brave in coming on and I very much appreciate it.
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give
Speaker 2: it a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify wherever
Speaker 2: you are listening right now, and if you want to
Speaker 2: provide some feedback, if you have an episode suggestion, you
Speaker 2: just want to reach out and say hi, follow us
Speaker 2: on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast and we will be
Speaker 2: back next week with another episode.