Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stephman.
Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio. And welcome to
Speaker 1: a feminist movie a Wednesday, Wednesday or whenever it comes out,
Speaker 1: because we're recording it on Wednesday. Yeah, so we shall see,
Speaker 1: we shall see.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: We are today talking about CODA, which is an acronym
Speaker 1: that stands for Children of Deaf Adults And it was
Speaker 1: an Oscar winning AT twenty twenty one film written and
Speaker 1: directed by Sean Hayter. And I hope I'm getting that
Speaker 1: close to right. I looked it up, but I don't
Speaker 1: know I tried it. It is an English language remake
Speaker 1: of the twenty fourteen AT French film The Family Bellier
Speaker 1: and it follows Ruby Rossi, who's play made by Emilia Jones,
Speaker 1: a child of deaf adults. The deaf characters are played
Speaker 1: by deaf actors, which shouldn't seem such a big deal,
Speaker 1: but it unfortunately is currently though the financiers of this
Speaker 1: movie pushed back on that, and it was at the
Speaker 1: insistence of Marlee Matlin, who was the first deaf actor
Speaker 1: to win an Oscar and the first to sign onto
Speaker 1: this project. She plays the mom who threatened to drop
Speaker 1: out otherwise. So after that threat they relented them were like, okay,
Speaker 1: we will cast deav actors to play these deaf characters.
Speaker 1: About forty percent of the film is communicated through American
Speaker 1: Sign Language and hater learned for the production learned ASL,
Speaker 1: and they had two ASL masters, as they were called
Speaker 1: on set. It's a critically acclaimed coming of age story,
Speaker 1: though not without some debate within the deaf community, and
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about that at the end. It
Speaker 1: won Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Troy Kutzer, who
Speaker 1: was the first stef Man to win an Oscar for acting,
Speaker 1: and Best Adapted Screenplay at the ninety fourth Academy Awards.
Speaker 1: So spoilers. I guess this is a recent film.
Speaker 2: This is fairly new, I think twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, spoilers. But it was I watched a couple
Speaker 1: days ago. I was really cute, really like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was a lot more than I thought.
Speaker 2: By the way, this the lead, the female lead, the
Speaker 2: young woman is actually in lock and key, and I
Speaker 2: was like looking at her, like I know her, you
Speaker 2: know how I do this thing where I had to
Speaker 2: go back and forth, which By the way, Kutzer was
Speaker 2: in Criminal Mind and I remember him and that, Oh
Speaker 2: he did great and okay, I guess he was a
Speaker 2: serial killer, but whatever, he was really good in it.
Speaker 2: No episode, but yeah, I thought that was I thought
Speaker 2: it was good too. Definitely felt a little off, so
Speaker 2: I could definitely tell there was a bit of controversy
Speaker 2: where it was coming through an ablest person's lens, so
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't have who's not deaf, and so I'm like, ah,
Speaker 2: this is definitely a perspective. It also reminded me of
Speaker 2: the mister Hollands opus. Have you ever seen that one?
Speaker 2: The Rosor Dreyfus has a deaf son and he is
Speaker 2: a composer and a music teacher, and so he has
Speaker 2: to flip It's like the flip script of like, oh,
Speaker 2: I have to show my son, I want him to
Speaker 2: appreciate music. Here's this right, right.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the biggest points of contention about
Speaker 1: this is that music aspect, which we will talk about.
Speaker 1: We will talk about, but first let's get into the plot.
Speaker 1: The film takes place in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and follows seventeen
Speaker 1: year old Ruby, who is the only member of her
Speaker 1: family parents, Franka, Jackie, and older brother Leo. With hearing,
Speaker 1: she is the titular coda. She helps work at her
Speaker 1: parents struggling fishing business, a business she plans to work
Speaker 1: at full time once she graduates. And there's this local
Speaker 1: board meeting that Frank and Leo go to, and people
Speaker 1: are really angry at it over these sanctions and these
Speaker 1: fees that are making it harder for businesses to stay
Speaker 1: afloat pun, causing boats to disappear from the harbor. Frank
Speaker 1: announces he's going to start his own company to bypass
Speaker 1: restrictions and sell his own fish, and he calls on
Speaker 1: others to join him. The family depends on Ruby to
Speaker 1: spread the words so they can make the new business successful.
Speaker 1: After seeing her crash, Miles sign up for choir. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Ruby does. She signs up too, hoping to get closer
Speaker 1: to him. The choir teacher, Mister v pairs her with
Speaker 1: Miles for a duet and encourages her to do more singing,
Speaker 1: even trying to convince her to audition for the school
Speaker 1: He went to Berkeley College of Music, and he offers
Speaker 1: her the same private lessons he was already providing Miles.
Speaker 1: She agrees, but all of this stuff stretches her sin
Speaker 1: as her family frequently needs her to be their interpreter,
Speaker 1: and this culminates and mister V becoming frustrated with her,
Speaker 1: alleging she doesn't really care about the music because she's
Speaker 1: often late or like falls asleep in the lessons.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, because she has to wake up a three
Speaker 2: in the morning to go fishing and then goes to
Speaker 2: school and then goes to these lessons. That's impossible for anyone.
Speaker 1: It's a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So one day Ruby goes swimming with Miles because you know,
Speaker 2: Miles does something bad and he's a jerk and he
Speaker 2: has to apologize, and this is a way of apologizing. Sure,
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: After she and the family get into a whole fight,
Speaker 2: by the way, she decides to go swimming with Miles
Speaker 2: while Frank and Leo go out fishing accompanied to buy
Speaker 2: a federal fishing observer who did not realize they were deaf.
Speaker 2: And when they do not respond to actually, she apparently
Speaker 2: tattles on them essentially and calls in the coastguard to
Speaker 2: say that they don't have people. And when they don't
Speaker 2: respond to the radio calls and horns of the Coastguard
Speaker 2: who abruptly jump bond like they're gonna take people down
Speaker 2: and dramatic. They receive a fine and have their fishing
Speaker 2: license revoked for a while. They get like, twenty five
Speaker 2: hundred dollars fine is excessive, and this is on top
Speaker 2: of the fact that they had to pay for this
Speaker 2: federal person to be on board to make sure they're
Speaker 2: filing like following regulations. There's a lot of money. You
Speaker 2: can see why people are agree. Later, they have an
Speaker 2: argument with Ruby, telling her that she should have been
Speaker 2: on the boat with them while and while she argued,
Speaker 2: she can't always be there to interpret and this is
Speaker 2: not her fault. After Frank and Leo appeal, they get
Speaker 2: their license back on the condition that they have a
Speaker 2: hearing person on board with them at all time, and
Speaker 2: Ruby tells them she'll join the business full time after
Speaker 2: graduation instead of pursuing college because they would have to
Speaker 2: you know. They're like, oh, no, what do we do?
Speaker 2: This leads to another argument. While her parents are happy
Speaker 2: to know this, Leo gets angry and tells her that
Speaker 2: she is talented and she'll regret the decision not to
Speaker 2: go to college and that he is being treated like
Speaker 2: a baby. There's a lot of motions. The family goes
Speaker 2: to the choirs recital Ruby's performing in, and though they
Speaker 2: can't hear her, they see how receptive and positive the
Speaker 2: crowd is to Ruby singing, and later that night Frank
Speaker 2: requests that Ruby sings while he fills her vocal cords,
Speaker 2: and he's overcome with emotion, leading to a shift in
Speaker 2: their relationship. Yeah, the mother of the whole time is
Speaker 2: the one that's like, she can't go, she can't go.
Speaker 2: She did not see moved by the concept. She's just like, man, okay,
Speaker 2: because she at the beginning, she was like what if
Speaker 2: she's bad, what if she's really bad. I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: they're trying to make her look bad, like this editing
Speaker 2: or this script is making the mom look really cold.
Speaker 1: Not She has that line too in the beginning where
Speaker 1: she's like, so if I was blind, you'd want to
Speaker 1: be a painter.
Speaker 2: I was like, whoa, this is like this is really heated,
Speaker 2: and she's all joking about it that there's no real
Speaker 2: like it's almost worse because it's like coldly done with
Speaker 2: no care. But I was like, well, okay, that's how
Speaker 2: we're gonna interpreted this character. How dare you do that
Speaker 2: to Marley? Anyway, So the whole family drives with Ruby
Speaker 2: to her audition to Berkley, getting out of there a
Speaker 2: little late. Once they get there, Ruby bumps into Miles,
Speaker 2: who wishes her luck and tells her he didn't make
Speaker 2: it that he choked on at the auditions. There's a
Speaker 2: rule on no guests at the auditions, but Ruby's family
Speaker 2: finds this advantage point to watch, and so they were
Speaker 2: at this upstairs balcony and when she had forgotten her music,
Speaker 2: mister V comes in, who had supposedly left but came
Speaker 2: back and accompanies her because the other person who was
Speaker 2: on the piano did not know how to play Joni
Speaker 2: Mitchell's song.
Speaker 1: Yes Yes, and Ruby, because of all of these things,
Speaker 1: is very nervous, and mister V makes a deliberate misstep
Speaker 1: miss key, so she can start again, and after she
Speaker 1: catches sight of her family, she becomes more confident and
Speaker 1: she sings and signs both sides now by Joni Mitchell.
Speaker 1: The judge noticed the family and realize what's going on,
Speaker 1: but she gets in and invites Miles to visit her. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the Fishers in the community have been learning sign language
Speaker 1: so they can communicate while her family drives away. After
Speaker 1: she is dropped off at college, she signs that she
Speaker 1: loves them very much.
Speaker 2: Yes. End of story.
Speaker 1: At the ending.
Speaker 2: So, by the way, Miles is Scottish. That's something I
Speaker 2: always have to know. And the girl who plays Ruby
Speaker 2: is English. Really, I'm all always like, look at them
Speaker 2: in their accents. They did a great job. But let
Speaker 2: me mock them on the door, but let me note
Speaker 2: that they I don't know why, but that's always fascinates
Speaker 2: me when I'm like, oh, look at that. Okay, I
Speaker 2: would have never known. Good on you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was watching another I've been in my BA
Speaker 1: in my mountaineering. I don't know what is going on
Speaker 1: with me, but I was watching Everest. Uh, and it
Speaker 1: has Martin Henderson who is in X with a very
Speaker 1: southern accent. But he's also isn't he in True Blood?
Speaker 1: And he has a like anyway, I had a moment
Speaker 1: because he has a New Zealand Everest. You know you
Speaker 1: know who it is. Well, it's like if you saw him,
Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh, this is just the podcast where
Speaker 1: we like go on tangents about actor and.
Speaker 2: This is what I do in real life. Though, yes,
Speaker 2: this is Blood.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was. I don't know.
Speaker 2: No, I don't. Oh, okay, I know you're talking about
Speaker 2: but he definitely wasn't on True Blood. You're wrong, all.
Speaker 1: Right, I accept that. I don't.
Speaker 3: I'm not like Hugh Samantha Anatomy. Oh, I wouldn't know
Speaker 3: about that. Well, we've gone off the rails, we have,
Speaker 3: but coming back to Everest and the accents.
Speaker 1: Well we don't need to come back to that at all.
Speaker 2: But yes, I think it's different because because of these
Speaker 2: actors and especially being Ruby, she is usually the American
Speaker 2: sign language. And I've always thought that was interesting too,
Speaker 2: because she's having to fly, not that she KNEWSI language
Speaker 2: to begin with, but you know, it's different from different countries,
Speaker 2: so I wondered what the differences would be and that
Speaker 2: and her like adapting to that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and most of the cast and crew did learn ASL.
Speaker 1: So I think it said it took her nine months
Speaker 1: to learn to be able to do it, like very
Speaker 1: confidently because it's part of her role. She does through
Speaker 1: that through throughout the film. But yeah, that that was
Speaker 1: an interesting aspect of it. It is a very it's
Speaker 1: a very coming of age short. It's a very feel
Speaker 1: good story, and that was one of the critiques of
Speaker 1: it was the ending was so nice, which is funny
Speaker 1: to me. I get it, I get it, but it
Speaker 1: is like, oh, everything works out.
Speaker 2: Oh, but you know, I think it's also I was surprised.
Speaker 2: I was hesitant in watching this movie because I do
Speaker 2: feel like it's as voyeurism to a certain extent that
Speaker 2: I don't It makes me uncomfortable with anything like this,
Speaker 2: But it's also like there's a Again, the two sides
Speaker 2: to this coin is that it does make me uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: You should be uncomfortable, you should be wanting to watch this,
Speaker 2: but what type of voyeurism is this learning? Or are
Speaker 2: you just doing this in a like an almost fetish
Speaker 2: sized way. Because also a sign language is kind of
Speaker 2: like that too. I wanted to learn sign language. I
Speaker 2: think I feel like every person wants to learn sign
Speaker 2: language growing up. But then it's like, Okay, what is
Speaker 2: the reason do you really want to? And then people
Speaker 2: who teach it and get obsessed with it, teach it
Speaker 2: incorrectly and then take away from those who actually like
Speaker 2: the deaf teachers who are like hey, don't do it
Speaker 2: that way, please, you're messing us up type of thing, like,
Speaker 2: that's a whole conversation on TikTok that's been happening and
Speaker 2: forth for a while right now, people with good intentions
Speaker 2: not doing it correctly and then really throwing off an
Speaker 2: entire community of people were like, this is our language,
Speaker 2: please stop this.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think when it comes to this movie,
Speaker 1: that was one of the that's one of the biggest
Speaker 1: critiques or just conversation points because people people did have
Speaker 1: a lot of thoughts about it. But one of the
Speaker 1: things is, you know, they had these two ASL people
Speaker 1: on set at all times. One of the things people
Speaker 1: wrote about that really resonated with me was again those
Speaker 1: like small things that you don't know unless you that's
Speaker 1: your experience, so you do. There are things in ASL,
Speaker 1: which I did take in elementary school. I would never
Speaker 1: ever presume to be any kind of expert, but like,
Speaker 1: unless you speak in that all the time, you're going
Speaker 1: to as a hearing person kind of try to put
Speaker 1: it in a way a hearing person would put it,
Speaker 1: and it's not always that same way, right, So that
Speaker 1: was one of the things people brought up is some
Speaker 1: of those differences they saw one watching this movie. And
Speaker 1: I would say the conversation and the deaf community that
Speaker 1: came out after this came out like no community is
Speaker 1: a monolith. But overall it felt like people were very
Speaker 1: torn in that, like they liked a lot of They
Speaker 1: liked a lot of it, but there are other parts
Speaker 1: that are like this is actually damaging, right, so and
Speaker 1: that's it's complicated. And that was another thing a lot
Speaker 1: of people said is that you know, there's deaf experience
Speaker 1: varies and it is often very complicated. So it was
Speaker 1: just a lot of talking around around that and the
Speaker 1: actors they got all the phrase which is great. They
Speaker 1: were great. There was also a lot of conversation around
Speaker 1: the depiction of the parents as sexually active and self sufficient,
Speaker 1: because that's something we've talked about a lot of times
Speaker 1: people with disabilities are desexualized in media, so they were
Speaker 1: talking about that. I did see some conversation though about
Speaker 1: how it was sort of used humorously, like they were
Speaker 1: like very sexual, but it was very humorous, and I
Speaker 1: think like, because unfortunately we don't have this representation a lot,
Speaker 1: then that feels almost like they aren't being very sexual
Speaker 1: like not sexualized. That's not the right word, but it's
Speaker 1: almost like it's being like used as a joke as
Speaker 1: opposed to like they're actually sexually active.
Speaker 2: I mean I could say that because any joke. I
Speaker 2: wonder too. Those also like the parents the embarrassment for
Speaker 2: a child in general, and that could be in any
Speaker 2: way right for any spectrum of communities. But like I
Speaker 2: also thought that was interesting with a brother, like they
Speaker 2: made sure like he was always on tender trying to
Speaker 2: find a mate, and then he did hook up with
Speaker 2: the friend, which was not wonderful, but like it took
Speaker 2: it into like, no, this is their sexual people. They're handsome,
Speaker 2: they're like all these things. They're attractive. Nothing like takes
Speaker 2: away their deafness, does not take away from their dating
Speaker 2: life growth, dating growth whatever however he has it. But
Speaker 2: like I think that that they did that in a
Speaker 2: good light as well. But I can see like, yeah, again,
Speaker 2: like when I was talking about the reason I think
Speaker 2: people were shocked about the good ending is most award winning,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to oscars, it needs to be
Speaker 2: tragic or tragic warn for you to actually like it.
Speaker 2: So I appreciated that, Like it's a difference instead of
Speaker 2: seeing something to go destroyed because of a disability or
Speaker 2: you know when we see the feel good movies where
Speaker 2: someone has a disability and they died and everybody cries,
Speaker 2: are like, that's awful. Why are we praising this movie?
Speaker 2: They don't have to die, not just disabled person has
Speaker 2: to die to make this a good film? What the hell?
Speaker 2: And which is like a huge critique in the entirety
Speaker 2: of the film industry. So like it's kind of a
Speaker 2: double edge sortain, like, well, the opposite way of not
Speaker 2: having a good ending is is that better? Because we
Speaker 2: don't want that either, do we?
Speaker 1: Right? Right? I think again, it has to do so
Speaker 1: much of this is very complicated because there isn't this representation.
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of it was like people
Speaker 1: codis who are like, no, that's not that wasn't my experience.
Speaker 1: But I'm happy to see this representation, right, But because
Speaker 1: there's just so little representation, yeah, then it's I guess
Speaker 1: it's still there's like a lot of work to be
Speaker 1: done that it could be so much better.
Speaker 2: I mean, like it absolutely holds true, like that you're
Speaker 2: getting the crumbs. It's like you have to be appreciative
Speaker 2: because at least you have something, So why are you
Speaker 2: complaining we finally gave it to you. I mean that's
Speaker 2: that whole conversation, Like when Parasite came through and everybody
Speaker 2: was pissed. This is you know, like that they won
Speaker 2: and Peoble like, why are you too lazy to read subtitles?
Speaker 2: Is that a hard thing for you? Are you? Are
Speaker 2: you really struggling? But like stuff like that, and we
Speaker 2: had to be you know, we I'm talking about like
Speaker 2: Asian people, like had to be grateful. It was a
Speaker 2: good film, don't get me wrong, but the entire day
Speaker 2: of the film was like, oh, well look how these
Speaker 2: poor people?
Speaker 1: And also.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's squid games, same thing, everything is awful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that was That was definitely something I read
Speaker 1: a lot researching. This was people writing about like I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I could critique it in any way
Speaker 1: because it's you know, so rare, and that they were
Speaker 1: legitimately like did like it or at least parts of
Speaker 1: it and were happy to like they did still see
Speaker 1: it as a huge deal of like representation that it
Speaker 1: wasn't a story about pity, but not being comfortable because
Speaker 1: it is unfortunately so rare because opportunities are so slim.
Speaker 1: Right to make any kind of public critique.
Speaker 2: Right it is. And again like for us who are
Speaker 2: hearing people, we really don't have the right to say
Speaker 2: one way or the other. Like we didn't say we
Speaker 2: enjoyed the movie, we enjoyed the acting all that for sure,
Speaker 2: and that bias, but we can't really say one thing
Speaker 2: or the other because it's not our it's not our fight,
Speaker 2: it's not our conversation. This is not our platform to
Speaker 2: be able to be like this is why I should
Speaker 2: be loved by all the Duck community, because that's absolutely
Speaker 2: not true, and we should he listen to the critiques.
Speaker 2: I did find it interesting. I don't know about you.
Speaker 2: Did you You watched it on Apple right, which is
Speaker 2: not a sponsor right now, not currently, but the intent.
Speaker 2: So when you watched it, did it have the subtitles
Speaker 2: for the ASL?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: So when I was reading it, because what I was
Speaker 2: watching it on a different platform, I'm not gonna talk
Speaker 2: about that, it did not have subtitles and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh no, no, what do I do? So I had
Speaker 2: to go back through because again forty percent of the
Speaker 2: movie is an ASL's like oh no, they intended not
Speaker 2: to actually, like they did that on purpose, like it's
Speaker 2: provided for you can get it, but the idea was
Speaker 2: like that the hearing people would be left in the dark,
Speaker 2: often as people who are not hearing or who are
Speaker 2: deaf who have maybe issues and not being able to
Speaker 2: access the subtitles or the captions close captions. So I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I guess I could try to watch
Speaker 2: it that way. I could not by the way I
Speaker 2: could not. I was like this, I can't do this.
Speaker 2: It's so frustrating. So it kind of teaching you a
Speaker 2: little lesson. But that's I did read that and the
Speaker 2: intent they didn't necessarily do it on purpose, but they
Speaker 2: left it out on this kind of you know what
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like with like you could get it, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's accessible, but we're not going to necessarily do it
Speaker 2: easily for you. That's interesting, And I'm guessing like the
Speaker 2: streaming service since it was produced by Apple mm hmm,
Speaker 2: they did they would provide that on their own streaming service.
Speaker 2: But of course for me, I am now at the
Speaker 2: age I love subtitles and now cannot watch movies without subtitles.
Speaker 2: When we go to theater, and I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'm suffering right because I can't see the subtitles. I
Speaker 2: love them, and I feel like I can't hear it
Speaker 2: correctly if I'm not looking at the subtitles. A lot
Speaker 2: of people will understand this. Yeah, but like, yeah, so
Speaker 2: that's automatic, so you might not you might not have known.
Speaker 2: But according to one of the things that I read,
Speaker 2: that was an intentional decision.
Speaker 1: Huh, Yeah, that's interesting. And I did read a bunch
Speaker 1: from the creators that they did want to do stuff
Speaker 1: like that to like make you realize how many things
Speaker 1: that we take for granted as hearing people.
Speaker 2: Right. I'm interested though, So anybody who went to the theater, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and see this, it was the captions there, Like, I
Speaker 2: don't want to wonder how they I assume they did.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming they did, but.
Speaker 2: Because of the theater. But like, yeah, that's just what
Speaker 2: I read in a couple of things.
Speaker 1: Well, this movie one of the reasons people think it won.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to detract anything from it, but
Speaker 1: it came out during COVID, which was when we were
Speaker 1: all like feel good, feel good, But it was because
Speaker 1: another controversy it caused was it was the first movie
Speaker 1: released directly to streaming that won an oscar, and people
Speaker 1: were very like, that's not a real movie, you know
Speaker 1: how they get about streaming.
Speaker 2: We've like, let that go now because that's what I
Speaker 2: think we take.
Speaker 1: I think we have. But at the time people were
Speaker 1: still mad. So it probably did. If it was on
Speaker 1: streaming first, then it very well might have had you
Speaker 1: had to go and put on the captions.
Speaker 2: So for those people who are unlike me who don't
Speaker 2: watch TV captions on the regular, how does it work?
Speaker 2: I guess you can't go and you can go and
Speaker 2: find it out. Take off the captions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I'll do some investigating.
Speaker 2: Right, get to investigating, girl.
Speaker 1: Oh you know I love investigating. Well, okay, So another
Speaker 1: big piece of this conversation, which we did mention earlier,
Speaker 1: was the use of music specifically and the idea that
Speaker 1: deaf people can't enjoy it, or people's reactions to it
Speaker 1: being miserable that they can't enjoy it. That line I
Speaker 1: kind of made fun of earlier, Would you be a
Speaker 1: painter if I was blind? I feel like they realized
Speaker 1: this was a thing, but they did it anyway for
Speaker 1: kind of drama. It felt like right.
Speaker 2: Well, and then I'm wonder like because Marlee is very, very,
Speaker 2: very outspoke and she always has been, like she's one
Speaker 2: of the first. Like I will say, the two of
Speaker 2: them are probably the most well known deaf actors, and
Speaker 2: especially now, but I have seen him on screen time
Speaker 2: more than any other deaf actors outside of Marlee as well,
Speaker 2: So I wonder, like how much input they Obviously Marley
Speaker 2: has like a lot of say so with the fact
Speaker 2: that she held out, which was amazing, which I'm again,
Speaker 2: like you said, I can'tnot believe that wasn't even a conversation,
Speaker 2: but that they would not have been like this line
Speaker 2: is real, real bad, this line. This is not what
Speaker 2: I was saying because again, like Marley, the mom's character
Speaker 2: was not likable, Like she wasn't I didn't hate her
Speaker 2: like a lot of the other but like she was
Speaker 2: not likable. It didn't quite make sense. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if it's because we wanted to sympathize with the
Speaker 2: daughter so much, which by the way, is an ablest
Speaker 2: view we've seen. We've talked about it before, how they
Speaker 2: make the caretakers a guardian angel as if they are savior,
Speaker 2: and that's just as bad as anything else. And this
Speaker 2: is what we see here. So I wonder like if
Speaker 2: they're like because Marley has been self sufficient, because she
Speaker 2: can also communicate. She can actually speak pretty well. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's read lisps, but I think she's
Speaker 2: able to read lips and so I like she's self sufficient,
Speaker 2: like she doesn't necessarily need that type of you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, like a daughter to translate.
Speaker 1: That's related to another critique a lot of people had
Speaker 1: was it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic that there would not be
Speaker 1: an interpreter in professional settings. The ADA requires that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I read that, but I mean, as we talked about,
Speaker 1: ADA is not perfect, and it does require litigations sometimes.
Speaker 1: But like there should have been someone provided.
Speaker 2: But they owned a private business. Yes, so does seem
Speaker 2: to kind of like under the radar a lot of
Speaker 2: the times, right.
Speaker 1: I wanted to include this quote from someone who specializes
Speaker 1: in death portrayals in things quote. When Beacam first saw
Speaker 1: the trailer of the movie, she thought the story must
Speaker 1: be set in the past. It was the only explanation
Speaker 1: she could think of for Frank and Jackie's dependence on
Speaker 1: Ruby instead of on professional interpreters, which have been mandated
Speaker 1: ever since The Americans with Disabilities pasted in nineteen ninety,
Speaker 1: acknowledging that interpreting services aren't always provided and that many
Speaker 1: children interpret in a pinch. Beacon pointed out that the
Speaker 1: script made no mention of this being a last resort
Speaker 1: for the family. The movie also rarely showed deaf people
Speaker 1: communicating through other methods like video relay services, mobile phone apps.
Speaker 1: Lip reading are just plain old pencil and paper.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not gonna lie. That was like the rational
Speaker 2: part of me, and like, why wouldn't they just text
Speaker 2: like they're doing? That makes the most sense. Why wouldn't
Speaker 2: they write? Why are they not writing things to each other?
Speaker 2: Like I don't quite stand. It's not like pen and
Speaker 2: paper don't.
Speaker 1: Exist, right, And that's I think like the heart of
Speaker 1: most of every critique I read was this was still
Speaker 1: told from a hearing case. It had people on sets
Speaker 1: who were deaf, had actors who were and as you said,
Speaker 1: I'm sure one hundred percent sure that they did raise
Speaker 1: points and were impactful, but ultimately it was still told
Speaker 1: from a hearing gaze, and it was very much about
Speaker 1: ruby and you know, the coda experience too, Like people
Speaker 1: who were CODA spoke up about it like this is
Speaker 1: not that wasn't my experience, Like still wonder.
Speaker 2: About like when she talks about being young and talking funny,
Speaker 2: as she says in the movie, not not saying that,
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, is that a typical experience from a CODA.
Speaker 1: Well that was one thing I read about, Like that
Speaker 1: line in particular, was that that's a thing maybe you
Speaker 1: can talk about and say if you are actually in
Speaker 1: the deaf community or CODA who is in the deaf community,
Speaker 1: but like you know, like as someone who isn't that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be making that comment, that joke like that
Speaker 1: because you're not. You don't know where it's coming from.
Speaker 1: You don't know all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: Like like that's what I'm like, It's maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're like insulated with only deaf people. But she
Speaker 2: seemed to be surrounded by a lot of hearing people,
Speaker 2: so that would seem like I don't think that would
Speaker 2: be as prevalent as that would seem unless she was
Speaker 2: completely isolated in the community. Again, we don't know. They
Speaker 2: don't really talk about that backstory because she also says,
Speaker 2: you only see her deaf friends once a month.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was something that came up too, And
Speaker 1: I think someone pointed out that she is she's kind
Speaker 1: of like the virtuous perfect character, like she wants to
Speaker 1: sacrifice for her family, as you said, but also she's
Speaker 1: kind of judgy about sex with her friends and her brother,
Speaker 1: which again I feel like it's the strangeness between like
Speaker 1: I get it when your family and sex is weird.
Speaker 1: But also it felt something about it felt very like
Speaker 1: virtue singing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was too many storylines in those maybe again
Speaker 2: because we open with her singing, so you know from
Speaker 2: jump oh, she's got a good voice, but she's singing
Speaker 2: around her us A family, so she doesn't know, they
Speaker 2: don't know. Whatever whatnot, we go this is this is
Speaker 2: a setup to like her loving singing and then her
Speaker 2: family not approving of it. I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 2: if that's truly a thing. I don't feel like maybe
Speaker 2: maybe I'm just being too open minded in that the
Speaker 2: Pitt families are like families who grow together. Sure, but
Speaker 2: I don't think they automatically would have been like no,
Speaker 2: no college for you. That seems so backwards nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: maybe right, nineties even.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, And I think part of it too
Speaker 1: was I understand storyline wise, and I did. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed the movie, but we you know, like storyline wise,
Speaker 1: I get the drama of it, but because it has
Speaker 1: so much like ablest stuff around it, the fact that
Speaker 1: she her singing is the thing and they can't hear
Speaker 1: it and so forward, they must be miserable and she
Speaker 1: can't share it with them and they must be miserable.
Speaker 1: It's just not true. It's like not a great message.
Speaker 2: I mean, I did say at one point that the
Speaker 2: dad really likes gangster rap, which I was like, can
Speaker 2: we just say hip hop? Can you just say, like
Speaker 2: that's unnecessary to say gangster rap, Like that's obviously a
Speaker 2: joke line there, but like because he likes the beats,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if that's not true, but I
Speaker 2: know I've definitely seen artists talk about who are hard
Speaker 2: of hearing, or composers who are hard of hearing talking
Speaker 2: about they hear the beat and that's how they follow
Speaker 2: it and create music and is often amazing and that
Speaker 2: doesn't limit people to do creating music, and it's the
Speaker 2: beat lines. But I'm like, wow, Okay, that's I guess
Speaker 2: that's good. But at the same time, why are we
Speaker 2: saying it that way?
Speaker 1: Y'all right? And that was another big scene that people
Speaker 1: are like, no, that doesn't ring true. Is when he
Speaker 1: feels the vibrations of her throat and roby singing and
Speaker 1: her dad feels the vibrations of her throat, which is
Speaker 1: a very emotional scene, but a lot of deaf people
Speaker 1: were like, that would be like feeling a ring tone
Speaker 1: of a phone or like feeling a vibrate, and that
Speaker 1: it can actually be a traumatizing method used to teach
Speaker 1: deaf people on how to speak. So that was just
Speaker 1: kind of another instance where people like this obviously it
Speaker 1: was not written right someone in the deaf community.
Speaker 2: They thought it'd be a pretty touching moment. And then
Speaker 2: you're like, right, you should have consulted somebody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And again so many people said that the experience
Speaker 1: is very buried within the community. But still, yeah, like
Speaker 1: somebody I imagine would have been like, hey, actually.
Speaker 2: This one, yeah, this one. And again, it's different. It's
Speaker 2: not a singular experience. People have different experiences. It is
Speaker 2: a singular experience, rather that people have different experiences, individual experiences,
Speaker 2: but the conversation should be maybe we should do it
Speaker 2: in a different way. I don't know, Like I A
Speaker 2: was thinking she was gonna start signing yeah music to
Speaker 2: him to let him know the words of what it means.
Speaker 2: That was like, why why wouldn't you go ahead and
Speaker 2: sign the song? Yeah, maybe that's more difficult than to translate.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I was like, yeah, okay, okay,
Speaker 2: we're just touching. We're just yeah, just touching.
Speaker 1: Well. And then I had a moment of like, am
Speaker 1: I supposed to interpret this as he's so sad he
Speaker 1: can't hear her, which is again not the thing we
Speaker 1: should be doing. Or is it that he's like actually
Speaker 1: getting something from the vibrations right again?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Is it like oh I want to be a
Speaker 2: part of this and this is the best way I
Speaker 2: can do it? Whatever? Whatnot? Also the flip from the
Speaker 2: mom again, like the next day everybody decided to take
Speaker 2: her to Boston. I was like, wait what Yeah, I
Speaker 2: know the brother would have been on top of it,
Speaker 2: but the mother. I was like, shouldn't we have a fight. No,
Speaker 2: she just doesn't care.
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. Yeah, that was a moment where
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, a minute I missed something.
Speaker 2: But so quickly we were all like, what's that, what's that?
Speaker 2: What's just happened?
Speaker 1: Who's going where?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's something I read from Codas too, was that
Speaker 1: it didn't properly capture the things that they are more
Speaker 1: worried about or have to deal with, and one of
Speaker 1: them was not being able to call in a pinch
Speaker 1: if you really need to, especially in the case of
Speaker 1: an emergency. And then a lot of them, a lot
Speaker 1: of the articles I read brought up the scene where
Speaker 1: Ruby misinterprets for her parents as a joke like they
Speaker 1: you can't have sex ever, that's what the doctor is saying,
Speaker 1: which I also, as we said, I understand the underlying
Speaker 1: it makes us uncomfortable as kids to think about that.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people Codas were like, no, normally
Speaker 1: that that's upsetting. That's like you don't do that right, right, right.
Speaker 2: That's for sure, Like any any interpsation, any like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we would have this whole conversation because when we would
Speaker 2: have Spanish speaking clients at different things and they would
Speaker 2: bring the kid and we're like, we can't do this.
Speaker 2: This is so bad because yes, if they misinterubor like
Speaker 2: anything or leave something out. This could be probably a
Speaker 2: huge problem and a violation for both us and the parents,
Speaker 2: and so that should be a no note to be given. Again,
Speaker 2: like studies like doctor's with privacy, typically it shouldn't have
Speaker 2: ever been a.
Speaker 1: Child, right, Yeah. And I think one of the bigger
Speaker 1: one of the issues a lot of people brought up
Speaker 1: was that it was played specifically for laughs. It was
Speaker 1: used as a joke line, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: shared like their own personal stories of doing that in
Speaker 1: a medical sense and how up setting it was. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that came up a lot. I did find I mentioned
Speaker 1: it recently. Who knows when the schedule things have come out,
Speaker 1: but I mentioned recently that I did find a paper
Speaker 1: about hearing loss and interacting at big crowds, and I
Speaker 1: was really amazed at how many little like it's those
Speaker 1: little things where it's like, yes, I know what that is,
Speaker 1: I know exactly what that is that you don't know
Speaker 1: unless you've like really lived it. And I feel like
Speaker 1: that that was throughout of the sort of hearing gaze
Speaker 1: of this movie is those little intricacies, right. I would
Speaker 1: say the one of the general vibes I got that
Speaker 1: was going back to what we were talking about earlier
Speaker 1: was a lot of people feeling very torn because they
Speaker 1: were glad the movie got made, but wanting more and
Speaker 1: not wanting Hollywood to shy away because they were critiques
Speaker 1: like this. I'm like, oh, we can't do it because
Speaker 1: the deaf community wasn't happy, Oh or never like not
Speaker 1: wanting that to happen and wanting to provide more support
Speaker 1: for movies like this and deaf creators. But I know,
Speaker 1: we've just been going over a lot of critiques and
Speaker 1: they're important, Like, we have to talk about this. I
Speaker 1: did really like and I feel like most people I
Speaker 1: read as I said, did enjoy it, but there were problematic, damaging,
Speaker 1: right things in there and we have to talk about them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then in general, I think it's overall talking
Speaker 2: about taking a lesson.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The truth of the matter is, because of stigmas and
Speaker 2: so much ablest ideals, racist ideals, all the things, you're
Speaker 2: never going to have a perfect movie and you're always
Speaker 2: going to have someone critiquing something that's going to be
Speaker 2: an obvious. But when you hear a majority of people
Speaker 2: saying this is the problem we need to fix that,
Speaker 2: you need to listen and Again, as we talked about
Speaker 2: in our feminist around the world, when we talk about
Speaker 2: not including those marginalized people in every aspect of the thing,
Speaker 2: including screenwriting, including production, including editing, then you're going to
Speaker 2: do cause these big like conversations which could be avoided
Speaker 2: if you brought them in at the jump. So the
Speaker 2: fact that Marley had to in the middle of casting
Speaker 2: threaten someone instead of it being handled from jump is
Speaker 2: a problem and that has to be talked about in general.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about these criticisms, it's not because
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, this is an awful movie. It was
Speaker 2: an enjoyable movie. I thought each actor did an amazing
Speaker 2: job with the character they had. Really grateful to see
Speaker 2: that they are being highlighted and they're starring in it.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Like we want to get accolades to that. Now,
Speaker 2: let's bring in people of color with that, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, and marginalized people and people around the
Speaker 2: world who have their own different cultural ways of interpreting things.
Speaker 2: But the fact is that because it wasn't handled from jump,
Speaker 2: that's the problem, and that's what you have to talk about.
Speaker 2: And we want to praise the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: this woman who decided she wanted to do this was
Speaker 2: excited to celebrate this type of lifestyle. It's beautiful and
Speaker 2: we want to celebrate that too. But to truly celebrate
Speaker 2: is to understand you're out of your depth and you're
Speaker 2: gonna need to lean on the people who understand it.
Speaker 1: Right, right, And I think that I'm it sounds so
Speaker 1: kind of cliche, but I'm glad we're having these conversations
Speaker 1: because I think one of the things this movie did
Speaker 1: do was for people who maybe have never thought about it,
Speaker 1: who have internalized ableism and didn't know who maybe don't
Speaker 1: even know I'd never heard the word ableism before. Like
Speaker 1: I'm hoping, I know it started some conversations, and I'm
Speaker 1: hoping more and more people were reached through that and
Speaker 1: had more questions of, like, there's more to this than
Speaker 1: just a coming of age feel good story that we
Speaker 1: need to discuss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to start from somewhere, and so even
Speaker 2: if it's to the from being wrong to being corrected,
Speaker 2: that's still the beginning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it is, and it I mean, this
Speaker 1: movie was his work in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where we talk about it
Speaker 1: and I wish it wasn't so historic because it's twenty
Speaker 1: one when it came out, but it was so listeners.
Speaker 1: If you saw this when it came out, If you
Speaker 1: have any more information about how the closed caption situation
Speaker 1: subtitle situation was, please please let us know. If you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts about any of this, please let us know.
Speaker 1: You can email us at Stuffmedia, Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
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Speaker 1: We have a tea public store we can buy some merchandise.
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Speaker 1: at stuff you Should Read Books dot com. You can
Speaker 1: also pre ordered on Audible. Thanks as always too, our
Speaker 1: super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1: Thank you all, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff
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Speaker 2: No