S1: This is the tortoise. The podcast that digs into the
S1: possibilities of slow. I am your host, Brooke McAlary, and
S1: I am joined by Ben McAlary. Hello.
S2: This is not a podcast. This is a podcast. I
S2: forget that we say that I need to get back
S2: in saying podcast, not a podcast because it suits this podcast.
S2: Podcast sure, doesn't it?
S1: It's very plodding.
S2: It's so we're such plotters.
S1: I like it. Makes me feel a bit cozy, to
S1: be honest.
S2: Absolutely. Let's do a quick check in. How are you feeling?
S1: Pretty good. Pretty good. Been a weird few weeks, but
S1: I'm doing all right. Sitting here with you, having a chat.
S1: Dogs at my feet. Happy days. Yeah. Yeah.
S2: Cozy. Comfortable.
S1: Very cozy and comfortable. Exactly. How are you?
S2: Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I just. We're. We don't record
S2: in the afternoon very often. And when you're listening to
S2: this podcast, we're recording in the afternoon, so there might
S2: be some energy differences.
S1: Yeah, there might be some traffic noise differences.
S2: I might be even more goofy than usual.
S1: Yeah.
S2: But other than that, looking forward to some holidays very,
S2: very shortly.
S1: So you're taking a week off, Which would be great. Yeah.
S1: The kids have just started school holidays, so. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. I love this time of year.
S1: Why? Why do you like winter?
S2: Well, it's just kind of like the it's going to
S2: say the beginning of the year. Beginning of the new
S2: new financial year.
S3: Woo hoo!
S2: Accountants rejoice.
S1: Apologies to any accountants I.
S2: I like it because it signifies the middle of the
S2: year and it like it's reminding me of how quickly
S2: the year's gone so far.
S1: Okay.
S2: Yeah. Like, shouldn't it be March? Sure. That's what it
S2: feels like to me anyway.
S1: I often to be like just going off on a
S1: little tangent here. I often I have a bit of
S1: a conflicted relationship with that whole like, gee, the years
S1: flying by kind of talk because it absolutely is like,
S1: I actually cannot believe it is July. Yeah. And it
S1: is the middle break of the school year. Uh. And
S1: I feel like every year is going quicker than the last.
S1: Just to dive fully into that cliché.
S4: Absolutely.
S1: But I also don't. I don't want to lean too
S1: heavily into it because then that becomes like that becomes
S1: the norm, right? And all of us talk about how
S1: quick everything's going and we sort of give up and
S1: we give ourselves over to the. Almost unnatural speed of
S1: time passing. And I don't I don't I don't like
S1: contributing to that because I feel like that conversation contributes
S1: to people's stress and I don't want to do that,
S1: but I totally get it.
S2: What's really stressing me out now is our dog has
S2: picked up our daughter's pillow and is literally destroying it.
S1: Well, he's dancing around. He wants attention.
S2: He is. You know what I think about this is
S2: the way that I treat it as it's like I'm
S2: running a long distance race.
S3: Okay.
S2: So I've started the year off nice pace and I've
S2: surprised myself. I'm halfway through the race, okay? And I've
S2: got so much energy left and I'm going to finish
S2: so strong. That's how I feel.
S3: Well, that's.
S1: Good. Now, what do you like this time of year?
S3: I know it's.
S2: Not always like that, but this particular race. 2023. Okay.
S3: Doing well. I dig it. Yeah.
S1: So anyway. Yeah, I just don't like. I don't like
S1: contributing to that. You know that feeling where everyone's like,
S1: I'm running out of time. Oh, my God, everything's going
S1: so fast. And life's like, passing me by. So. It
S1: feels slow. If it's nice and slow. Good.
S2: Yeah, very good. So in today's episode, we're going to
S2: talk about its tick tock.
S1: Tick tock on the tortoise. Tortoise. Tick tock.
S2: And specifically taking kids. Yep. And the relationship.
S3: Of.
S2: Our kids with tech.
S1: Yeah, well, I mean, I'm.
S2: Of our kids and not. We're not. Look, we're not experts.
S3: Nope.
S2: Of anything.
S3: At all.
S1: Not a single damn thing. Which is just the way, like.
S2: You won't find two bigger generalists in the history of
S2: the world than you and I. So, yeah, we just
S2: want to say that, though. We like we caution. Everything
S2: we say is we're not experts and anything. And the
S2: advice we give is of general in nature. And it's not.
S3: Specific. We don't give advice, though. Circumstances, do we give.
S2: I was trying to sound like a financial services ad, Sorry.
S2: Go on.
S1: Yeah, I think we actually go to kind of lengths
S1: to not give advice and I think your word observations
S1: is and conversation, that's really what we're doing here. And
S1: I think the only reason I really want to say
S1: that is because this is a really fraught topic that
S1: people often feel is laced with judgment, particularly, I think,
S1: when you're talking about it through the lens of slow
S1: living or mindfulness or intentional living or whatever. It's really
S1: easy to get defensive, and I get it. I completely understand.
S1: I have been there and will be there again myself
S1: many times. So I think that's really why I just
S1: wanted us to start out on that fruit and just say,
S1: this is a conversation. It's full of observations. We have kids,
S1: our kids are 12 and 14, so we've been through
S1: some stuff. We haven't been through other stuff. Everyone's situation,
S1: everyone's circumstances are going to be different, but also every
S1: single parent I know. Who I've ever touched on the
S1: conversation of parenting or tech or anything in between with.
S1: Everyone is struggling with it.
S2: It's one of the biggest, if not the biggest issues
S2: facing parents today.
S3: Yep.
S1: I would agree 100% because of the breadth of it.
S1: We're not just talking about social media. We're not just
S1: talking about, you know, phone use. It's it's everything that
S1: comes with. The Internet, you know, and all technology that
S1: is related like connection tech. I'm not. I think that's
S1: really what we're talking about is connection tech. So, you know,
S1: anything Internet related, anything. Connection related? Guess. Yeah.
S2: All right, well, let's get into it. I want to
S2: start the episode by. Having a little quiz.
S3: Pop quiz.
S2: Pop quiz for you. A couple of questions, if I could,
S2: just to get a base level understanding of of tech
S2: and and the relationship. Predominantly of of teens, but tweens
S2: as well as some tween stuff in here as well. Anyway,
S2: let me let's let's kick off and we'll see how
S2: you go. What is the most popular online platform for teens?
S1: Like social media.
S2: Social media? Yeah. This is all about social media.
S3: Okay. TikTok.
S2: Okay. And, like, keep on going. Like, what do you
S2: think's next?
S1: Oh, you. So YouTube, I don't know if you would classify.
S2: This classified as as social.
S1: Then YouTube first and then so. And then TikTok and
S1: then Snapchat. Instagram. Facebook.
S2: Pretty good.
S3: Yeah, pretty good.
S2: You just mixed up. Snapchat and Instagram are interesting. Instagram
S2: is slightly more positive, more used by about 3%.
S3: Right. Okay.
S2: Yeah, but yeah, YouTube. Get this. 95% of teenagers and
S2: tweens have used on the regular YouTube.
S1: That does not surprise me at all.
S3: That's unbelievable.
S1: I saw a.
S2: It's the most addictive.
S3: Mm.
S2: For me as well. Social media channel that I've ever known.
S1: That's interesting because I'm not a YouTube consumer. What I.
S2: Don't like. So why.
S3: Just.
S1: I.
S2: It's not on your radar?
S3: Nope, I'm.
S1: Not a visual learner. So I think a lot of
S1: people find their way onto YouTube. Maybe people our age.
S1: I'm not talking about kids necessarily because they're looking for
S1: instruction on how to do something and whether that's like
S1: a holiday that they're planning or a specific problem that
S1: they're having with their computer or wanting to learn how
S1: to crochet or so people will go to YouTube. I
S1: don't learn.
S2: Very informative.
S1: I don't learn that way.
S3: I can be totally sure.
S1: And I get it. I completely understand it. You have
S1: learnt loads of things and if you run into a
S1: problem at home like a, you know, an issue with
S1: a tool or something, you'll go YouTube.
S3: Definitely go to YouTube.
S1: See, I will go and read about it.
S2: I would not read a manual.
S3: No, I.
S2: Know I would go on YouTube and see it.
S3: For like.
S2: Practical reasons.
S1: It actually annoys me that I don't. Yeah, but it's not.
S3: It's just not.
S2: Part of your solution matrix.
S1: No. Well, when I learned that whatever they.
S3: What is that?
S1: You're so full of crap.
S3: It's like.
S1: Corporate bullshit. Bingo. God. When I learnt how to crochet.
S3: I went to you.
S1: Know, I tried. I did try, Yes. And I found
S1: it so frustrating because people who were doing the videos,
S1: their brains didn't work the same way my brain did.
S1: So the way they explain things or the way they
S1: showed things did not vibe at all. I didn't get it.
S1: I had to find someone who had photographs and written
S1: instructions that were in the same so vain.
S3: So you went.
S2: On to a blog?
S1: Basically. Yeah, it was. I think it was from like 2012.
S1: So that's my brain. I guess that's where my brain
S1: stopped developing back in 2012 or something. So sorry, that
S1: doesn't surprise me. Going back to your quiz, it does
S1: not surprise me.
S2: So 95% followed by TikTok, 67%. Huge difference. Instagram 62,
S2: Snapchat 59% and lowly. Fifth place Facebook with 32%.
S3: Yeah, I'm in 2014.
S2: Facebook 71%. Yes. That's not I mean, that's not surprising.
S2: Everyone knows that the only people on Facebook nowadays are
S2: either our parents or our parents parents.
S3: Yes. All those.
S1: Those 100 year olds on.
S3: Facebook.
S2: Um, but I guess looking at, you know, that. So
S2: the most common platforms, the scary statistics start when you
S2: start looking at how many times people visit these platforms.
S3: Per day or how.
S1: Many hours they're on them.
S3: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
S2: So. YouTube people just go down and, you know, YouTube,
S2: there's just videos that roll on and on and on
S2: and looking at it and look at TikTok short form.
S2: It's very short form Instagram, very short form Snapchat. I
S2: guess I've never, ever been on Snapchat, you know, So
S2: would not know and never been on tip top. Tick, tip, top,
S2: top shop Tik Tok never been on Tik tok. I've
S2: seen and this is the thing with YouTube. YouTube has
S2: tik tok on it. Yes, it has other I think
S2: Snapchat type things as well. It's got streaming. YouTube is
S2: just like this big. It's like a. Syndication, Right.
S1: So but also people will like there was a meme
S1: going around about two years ago saying, I don't I'm
S1: not on TikTok, I'm too old to be on TikTok.
S1: I just see TikTok videos on Instagram two weeks after
S1: they were big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was me.
S1: When I used to use Instagram, I'd be like, Yeah,
S1: I know what TikTok is. I'm I'm down with the kids.
S1: And then would proceed to talk about something that was
S1: big three months ago. Uh, yeah. So do you have
S1: any more questions for me? Okay.
S3: You like this?
S2: All right. So thinking about the amount of time tweens
S2: and teens spend on social media. So now we're going
S2: on to consumption. What do you reckon the average is?
S1: I'm going to say something like 12 hours.
S3: Okay.
S2: 15 hours.
S3: Holy on average. Okay, so that's.
S2: An average figure. And all these figures are from Pew
S2: Research Center, figures from last year. So the 2022 figures,
S2: 15 hours.
S3: Listen to.
S2: This. Most kids are spending more than five hours a
S2: day on social media slash video games.
S3: Okay. Well, that's a.
S1: Weird thing to combine.
S2: Well, not really. When you think about video games are
S2: very social these days, as in you're chatting to friends.
S2: Not even friends, actually. Just randoms you might find in
S2: a game you are. You can hear them. You're communicating
S2: with them also.
S1: How much has the world changed since when we were
S1: I mean, duh, since when we were growing up. The
S1: idea of talking like literally having a conversation with a
S1: random stranger on the internet filled our parents with dread. Right? Like,
S1: that was the thing. It was stranger danger on, you know,
S1: steroids because suddenly you could connect with everyone across the world.
S1: And now my kids, like. Talk to people that they
S1: don't know, they'll never know them. They don't actually really
S1: even want to know them as people. It's just like
S1: this connection. Portal. Yeah, you know. Sorry.
S2: Who's playing the corporate bullshit?
S1: Because I've been watching too much of the office. That's
S1: what it is.
S2: Just some more statistics. 32% of teens surveyed said they
S2: were online for 5 to 6 hours. What are they?
S2: They're at school. And anyway. 17% reported being online for
S2: 7 to 8 hours and 13%. So more than 1
S2: in 10 teens are online more than nine hours a day.
S1: But didn't you just say it was 15 hours, 15 average?
S2: That's that's for everything.
S3: Got you. Yeah. This is all.
S1: Screens.
S3: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Wow. So nine hours of social media a day.
S2: 15 hours on a screen, nine hours of which is
S2: on social media slash gaming.
S3: Unreal. Wow.
S2: Um, and now for some really sobering, really sobering statistics, which,
S2: you know, then we'll kind of get on with the episode.
S2: But 665% of 8 to 14 year olds have been
S2: involved in some kind of cyber bullying incident.
S1: What was the percentage?
S2: 65%. This one. My jaw dropped. 90% of children aged
S2: eight 8 to 16 have seen online pornography. 30% of
S2: kids who use the Internet for over three hours a
S2: day were diagnosed with depression. That's a bit.
S1: No, but there has been some significant studies released over
S1: the last couple of months that are more and more
S1: able to tie the mental health crisis. With the advent
S1: of smartphones and social media like they are.
S2: It's linked. So excessive.
S3: Use of.
S2: Technology. Um, then you're going to have things like lower
S2: attention spans. Like that. Increased risk and lack of privacy.
S3: Yep.
S2: Depression? Yeah. Obesity. Falling grades. And then like general, like
S2: social interaction issues as well, like being able to talk
S2: to people in the real world.
S1: There's so much in that that. Upsets me and makes
S1: me it makes me angry on behalf of these kids.
S1: It makes me so angry. And it makes me ashamed because.
S1: You can almost. You can forgive our parents generation for.
S1: Not knowing because like AOL and, you know, what's AOL,
S1: you know, instant messaging and. My space. Oh, those sorts
S1: of things. Yeah. We didn't. No one knew. What the
S1: impact of that was. I'm sure there were many people
S1: who were like, this is not going to be good
S1: for yeah, young brains. But there was no you know,
S1: there was.
S2: It was more, you know, isn't this great connection so.
S3: Good, Maybe. Yeah. Like novel.
S2: It's novel. It was a novelty.
S1: But we knew famous famously.
S2: For me, I had a boss who said social media
S2: is a fad.
S3: And you know what?
S1: If you take the long view, he's probably not wrong. Like,
S1: we may be seeing the end of social media coming.
S2: Definitely with Facebook.
S3: Yeah, that's.
S1: Right. I mean, something else is taking its place over
S1: and over again.
S3: Well, that's what I that's it.
S2: Like social media as we know it is just evolving
S2: into other things. Like you wouldn't have classified YouTube as
S2: social media but it is like you can chat to
S2: people on YouTube. Comment like you want to mean like
S2: the comments.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And then you're getting, you know, now I'm
S1: writing over on Substack. That is definitely a form of
S1: social media. Yeah, you can't.
S3: Yeah, that's true.
S1: You know, it's somewhere that people are creating communities and stuff,
S1: but it is media and it is social. You know,
S1: people are connecting and people are able to interact.
S2: So I'm just shocked. Look, the 90% pornography that just
S2: floored me and makes me really upset.
S1: It makes me angry. Like it makes me angry for
S1: these generations of kids who are just given unfettered access
S1: to the Internet. Yeah. And that is something that I cannot.
S1: I cannot understand. I because we know like we know
S1: what is as adults. We know what is on the Internet.
S1: And I know how damaging it can be to me
S1: as an adult. Even when you're not you're not looking
S1: for stuff like you're not going out there looking for
S1: things to make you upset or to make you question
S1: yourself or to twist your mind in horrible ways. You're
S1: not even looking for it. And it's there and it's
S1: really disturbing. What's an eight year old brain going to
S1: do on that? There are more and more studies coming
S1: out showing the impact of what porn can do to
S1: young brains like and the ripple effect of that of,
S1: you know, self image, relationships, intimacy, being able to, you know,
S1: form and maintain healthy, intimate relationships, all of that. It.
S1: Is so distressing to think that 90% of kids. Are
S1: being exposed to some level of porn, whether they want
S1: like whether they're searching it out or not, You know,
S1: it's not. It's. So, yeah, that's why I. I cannot understand.
S1: Kids being given complete and open access to the Internet.
S3: Yeah.
S2: And I think this is be a good time to
S2: for us to share our tech. Rules and regulations in
S2: this House.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Which are evolving always. And you know.
S3: I shouldn't.
S2: Say rules, guidance notes because I think.
S3: We have rules.
S2: It's kind of. But they they've got to flex, right?
S2: Like they've got to move. That's why I like rules
S2: are quite hard and fast but depending on. Assessments, assignments, assignments, homework.
S2: Like what we're doing on a weekend. They do flex.
S3: Sure. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. I understand what you're saying. I think our mentality
S1: with kids, with learning how to make good decisions and
S1: we applied this to things that they would spend money
S1: on and the way that they would spend their time
S1: and that kind of stuff was that we have always
S1: tried to give them boundaries. And within which they are
S1: allowed to make their own decisions. And I think we've
S1: kind of maintained that as they've gotten older. It's just
S1: that the boundaries are getting bigger. But. There are still boundaries,
S1: you know, and I think that that has been important
S1: for us and for them, because any time they have
S1: tried to cross those boundaries or, you know, the boundaries
S1: have been crossed. We can draw our attention to them.
S1: You know, and that's the that's the starting point of
S1: the conversation. So both of our kids are in high
S1: school now and they both got a smartphone, their first
S1: one when they started high school. So our daughters had
S1: one for 18 months. Our son said one for six
S1: months roughly. And it's not been without its bumps, that's
S1: for sure. Uh, one of them has social media. The
S1: other one has no interest in social media at this point,
S1: with the exception of YouTube.
S2: Oh, okay. Let's not. YouTube is social media. So, yes,
S2: he's there's they've got. Social media as far as I'm concerned.
S3: Yeah.
S1: And the platforms that they're allowed on is an ongoing conversation. Yeah.
S1: So Instagram is something that because I understand it, I've
S1: spent a lot of time on it. I know a
S1: bit about how. People use it, but also how kids
S1: use it. That was where we started. And then there
S1: was a day where we were petitioned very strongly for
S1: access to TikTok.
S3: Yeah, to.
S2: The point where there was a presentation.
S3: There was a.
S1: Presentation made, which I appreciated. I appreciated the dedication to
S1: the to the cause. There was like a PowerPoint presentation.
S1: It was awesome.
S2: Reminded me of an American sitcom.
S3: Sure.
S1: Yeah. And so TikTok was allowed for a while. A
S1: TikTok isn't allowed anymore.
S2: Let's talk about.
S3: Why.
S1: So it's been really interesting to see. The echo chamber,
S1: the algorithm, whatever you want to call it, in play.
S1: Because it happens on YouTube as well. So this is
S1: a more general comment. Um, but you see the kids
S1: being interested in something which is fine and they go
S1: looking for content about that thing and suddenly the algorithm
S1: serves up more of that thing and as we learning.
S1: And I think we spoke about it a little bit
S1: on the wellness episode, the social media and wellness episode
S1: a few months ago. Content creators recognize that the more
S1: extreme their content is, the more engagement they're going to get.
S1: Whether that is. Um. Synthetic like weather. That's something that
S1: the algorithm is doing or whether that's something that people
S1: just like looking at things that are that a little
S1: bit more extreme. And so it actually does boost their engagement,
S1: I don't know. But. Either way. They recognize that going
S1: more extreme with their content.
S2: It's 100% part of their narrative.
S3: Sure.
S2: Which their strategy.
S3: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Which is a whole other conversation. And you just see
S1: the kids. Opinions. You see their actions, you see their.
S3: This is just.
S2: Through engaging and talking with them. That's right.
S3: Which is the.
S1: Other which is going to be the flip side of
S1: this conversation, I think. You see, they're the lens through
S1: which they're viewing the world and themselves in the world
S1: change and slip. And it's really scary. And I think
S1: it's fair to say that we're fairly engaged in this stuff.
S1: Like I am probably one of the strictest parents of
S1: my kids friends. Like, I think you're also.
S3: Strict, but thank you very much.
S1: No, you are like We agree. Well, I'm trying to
S1: say is we agree on the boundaries before we give
S1: them to the kids. It's never one of us driving
S1: the bus without talking to the other one. But I
S1: think because of what I know, because of the work
S1: I've done, because of the reading I've done, because of
S1: the echo chamber that I exist in, yeah, I get
S1: served up a huge amount of content about how how
S1: harmful all this stuff is.
S3: Totally.
S1: So that's all you've.
S2: Seen it through yourself and your actions and your what
S2: you've done.
S3: Yeah, but I.
S1: Also happen to believe it, you know? Yeah. Which is the.
S3: All of.
S1: It. No, not all of it. Definitely not all of it.
S2: That's the thing, isn't it?
S3: Yeah.
S1: So we have the capacity to think critically. You and
S1: I have both studied, you know, communications, and through that,
S1: we've studied various ways of analysing discourse. And, you know,
S1: we understand a lot of that. And we also read
S1: about it because it's interesting. So we have that set
S1: of tools that we can use when we're reading or
S1: being presented with information kids don't have that. They have
S1: to learn that. And when they're not learning it at school,
S1: you know. It's on us as parents to have these
S1: conversations with them. So that's the flip side of what
S1: I wanted to say, which is I think the reason
S1: that we were able to recognize that TikTok in itself
S1: had become an issue was because we kept having conversations
S1: and because we and as a parent, like everyone knows,
S1: when something's up, you know, you have that gut feeling.
S1: And it's just a matter of reiterating. I'm here to talk,
S1: if ever you want to talk. Is something going on?
S1: You know, have you been upset by something that you've seen? Like,
S1: let's talk about this person. And I have no shame
S1: in saying that. I was very. On it into I
S1: got a TikTok account.
S3: Did you.
S2: Know that?
S1: To make sure that.
S3: What the.
S2: Dancing did you.
S3: Do so much.
S1: Dancing. Yeah. Dancing point videos. That's my thing. Uh, so
S1: you can call it spying if you want. Don't mind.
S1: I don't think it's spying. It's more like just keeping a.
S1: Finger on the pulse of what's going on. Yeah, and.
S3: I'd like.
S1: That stuff would disturb me. Did disturb me as an adult.
S1: So it's kind of drawing your kid's attention to the
S1: fact that. A lot of the content they're watching is
S1: made by people not much older than them. First of all, often.
S1: And they don't have all the answers. No one has
S1: all the answers. But, you know, if you're 13, a
S1: 16 year old probably doesn't have all the answers. And.
S1: Helping them recognize that. The more stridently someone speaks about
S1: a topic isn't necessarily tied to the level of truth
S1: and accuracy.
S3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S1: But man, it is. It's a job. Like, it's really tough.
S2: Okay, so that's the platforms and yeah, I think you've
S2: articulated that pretty well.
S1: So hang on. Going back to guidelines and stuff though. Like.
S2: This is what I'm going to get at now. So
S2: in terms of duration.
S3: Yep.
S2: Uh, and looking at those averages 15 hours a day.
S3: Um.
S2: What? How do you monitor the usage?
S1: So both of our kids have got Apple phones and
S1: so do I. And so do you. But they're tied
S1: to my apple ID so I can monitor their screen
S1: time on my phone just because we set up as
S1: like a family. I can't remember how I did it,
S1: to be perfectly honest. But that's helpful. Just to keep again,
S1: just to keep a finger on the pulse of like
S1: what they're actually doing, you know? And I know. So
S1: their school has a phone ban, a very strict phone ban,
S1: which is awesome. And all public schools in our state
S1: will be bringing first phone in at the beginning of
S1: the final term of the year. Yeah, I am. So
S1: for that. Seeing how their school has managed it, I'm
S1: incredibly impressed and I think the school benefits over and over.
S1: The kids benefit, the teachers benefit. Of course kids are
S1: going to push back and they hate it and they
S1: whinge about it and parents whinge about it. But for me,
S1: I'm all in.
S2: So just just to interrupt. So do you have do
S2: we have.
S3: I should say.
S2: Uh, like limits, daily limits on on tech usage?
S1: Oh, like not we don't have like a 60 minute limit.
S1: We used to when they were in primary school and
S1: it was like, can I play Minecraft or whatever you say, Yes,
S1: you've got an hour. I'll set the timer. Um. It's
S1: tricky because both of them will often have YouTube on
S1: while they're doing other things, which again does not compute
S1: for me. I can't do that. But you can.
S2: 100% that.
S3: Works. So you.
S1: Work and you've got YouTube videos on like that on.
S2: So YouTube videos. I've got music playing on YouTube or.
S3: Like like you have.
S1: A game like a sports match on.
S3: Sometimes, correct? Yeah.
S2: So I'll have like a sports game in the background
S2: not playing a lot.
S3: I could not do that for.
S2: Some reason and it's because I've worked in quite busy,
S2: noisy offices with TVs on like kind of like newsroom
S2: type places. For some reason it just I need that
S2: sort of background noise sometimes, other times. I'm. Yeah. I
S2: don't have anything on. Yeah. Yeah, they're like that. So
S2: they finish their homework or. Or they might be reviewing
S2: or revising something they will have. And I've gone in
S2: to our daughter's room and she's got like relaxing music
S2: playing on, on YouTube. Yeah.
S1: Well, she likes watching. Yeah, they both like watching like. Um,
S1: like film critiques and like, content about gaming and that
S1: sort of stuff. Again, it's not my jam, but that's
S1: what I've had to do as they've gotten older and
S1: their their interests and their tastes and their preferences have
S1: started to really become their own. And I'm like, That's
S1: not mine. That's okay. Like I've had to let go
S1: of that. I've had to go, okay. Their brains work
S1: differently to mine. They can do their revision, their science
S1: revision while they've got this thing on in the background
S1: or whatever. Um, that's been helpful for me to recognize
S1: that there are many ways of. Existing in like a
S1: tech connected world that aren't going to be super duper
S1: detrimental to the brain. So that's part of that echo
S1: chamber that I was talking about before, like having to
S1: let go of the quiet black and white mentality around
S1: that has been helpful for me, and I'm a hell
S1: of a lot more relaxed than I used to be.
S1: So we don't have like an, you know, minutes per
S1: day kind of limit, but obviously there's no. Tech. And
S1: until they've done their homework, you know they can't.
S3: Which is on a computer.
S1: Exactly. And that's the other thing. It's really hard to
S1: draw that distinction now, whereas we used to write everything
S1: by hand and it was like, you know, then you'd
S1: go and play. Yeah, back in my day I'd use
S1: a tablet and a piece of chalk.
S2: One thing that I'm a real huge fan of and
S2: it gets to this privacy thing is open door policy. Yes,
S2: the door needs to be opened at all time. When
S2: you're using tech. Yep. I don't care if I can
S2: hear your conversation. Yeah, often I don't because you're wearing
S2: a headset, but at least there's that. Like, it's just.
S2: It's almost like a reminder for the kids. Like you're.
S2: Like we're around. Like they're safe. Yeah, like I'm looking
S2: after you. And if they say, Oh, Dad, I need privacy,
S2: I'm like, I'm protecting your privacy. Yeah. Yeah, That's my.
S3: Number one concern.
S1: To a friend. Different situation. But that's not that common,
S1: to be perfectly honest. They don't sit and talk on
S1: the phone like we used to. Um, so, yes, open
S1: door policy. I'm not a big fan of earbuds or
S1: headphones when the kids are watching stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm
S1: actually not a fan of this. A lot of a
S1: lot of kids do it. They keep their AirPods in
S1: while they're talking to people now. And that is something
S1: that I actually have a huge issue with. And I've
S1: said it to both the kids. It feels like there's
S1: a wall there between it's rude. Sure. Yeah, that feels
S1: like I didn't want to say that because it sounds judgmental,
S1: but I find it rude if it's our kids. So
S1: I'm like, Take them out, let's talk. But also in
S1: terms of, you know, guidelines and stuff, the kids will
S1: come home. We're really lucky in that you or I
S1: is almost always home when the kids get home. So
S1: it's sort of part of our afternoon rhythm that they
S1: come home, they'll have something to eat. Even if it's
S1: only 15 or 20 minutes, they'll chat, they'll talk about
S1: their day, you know, and it gives their brains a
S1: minute to decompress because I know at school they're on
S1: screens a lot. Not as much as I think I assumed,
S1: but they are on screens a lot. Then they've got
S1: like a 45 minute bus trip home. Apparently they both
S1: listen to music a lot on the way home, and
S1: I believe that then they come home and I just
S1: want them to have a minute to decompress, to talk,
S1: to look people in the eye. I don't mind if
S1: they're in a bad mood. I don't mind if they
S1: don't want to talk, but to have the opportunity to.
S1: And then it's homework. And then after that, if there's
S1: nothing else on, if there's no other activity, if there's,
S1: you know. I'm not getting them to help with dinner
S1: or whatever. They might play a game or watch YouTube
S1: and then later in the night. We have a very
S1: strict no phones in the bedroom for anyone.
S3: That's for us.
S2: And it has been like that for us in our
S2: in our bedroom, especially for as long as I can remember,
S2: since probably.
S1: I know when the kids were really little, so probably
S1: the first smartphone I ever had, I would use it
S1: at night in bed. Yeah. And that was it. That
S1: was sort of the line in the sand for me.
S1: So no one has a phone? Um, no one has
S1: their computers in their rooms.
S3: So we have.
S1: Made it a big difference.
S3: Absolutely.
S2: Do you want to talk about the tech box, if
S2: you like. Like the tech?
S3: Space. Yeah.
S1: It's just somewhere that everyone can go and charge their phones.
S1: One of our kids still uses his iPad. Sorry about
S1: the noise. The dogs are being weird. Um. Yeah, everything
S1: just gets charged in the same place.
S2: And that's it's like a visual reminder for the kids
S2: to put their devices in the tech box after they've
S2: like basically at dinner time. Yep. Because after that it's
S2: usually unless one of them needs to revise something for
S2: an exam the next.
S1: Day, 99% of the time.
S3: It's not going.
S2: To be like that. Yeah. So what do you. How
S2: could we improve? I guess is the next question.
S1: So there are definitely times where. So there are definitely
S1: times where. It's convenient. Even at the age of the
S1: kids now, like if you and I have a lot
S1: of work going on, like the kids are going to
S1: push the boundaries. Of course they are. I would have
S1: as well at their age. So I guess just recognizing
S1: that that's what they're doing and that's fine. That's pretty
S1: normal behavior. And B, maybe. I don't know. I was
S1: going to say like have a whole lot of alternatives
S1: for them. They know that I want to do the alternative.
S2: Covid really smashed us for that, I think, because, yes,
S2: tech was just such an integral, an essential part of
S2: our lives back then. Yep. And a lot of the habits.
S2: A lot of those. Usage have just kept going. Not not,
S2: not kept going. But I feel like without Covid, we'd
S2: be in a different space. Would you agree with that?
S1: No, I think that I think that. Our kids have
S1: a fairly moderate use of tech and we've got a
S1: fairly good grasp on that at the moment. You know,
S1: we have lots of conversations about it. They roll their
S1: eyes about it, they get sick of me talking about it,
S1: but I can always tell them why. Yeah, we have
S1: those points of view and why it's not going to
S1: change or what things. We are open to changing over time,
S1: you know? And I think that Covid hit at the
S1: stage where the kids were still very much in our
S1: sphere of influence and now. That sphere of influence has
S1: expanded a lot. Yeah. You know, being in year seven
S1: and year eight at a much bigger school, they're both older,
S1: they've both got smartphones. So I don't. Necessarily think that.
S1: We would be in a different place if it wasn't
S1: for Covid, I think. I understand what you're saying, but
S1: I think that would be the case maybe if the
S1: kids were younger, but it's sort of transitioning out. Of
S1: Covid has happened at the same time as them transitioning into.
S1: A whole new phase of life and phase of tech use.
S1: You know.
S2: I know what you're saying, but I totally disagree.
S1: As is your right.
S2: So moving on now. Do you want to. For a
S2: second part of the interview.
S3: And what is it?
S1: To close it out, we've got to close it out. Yeah.
S3: Okay.
S2: So. How do you want to close it out?
S1: So we kind of wrapped up with the guidelines. Yeah.
S3: And then I said, What.
S2: Would you want to change? And you didn't really answer
S2: that question.
S1: Okay, So let's go back to that. Okay. So you
S1: asked me, though. Sorry.
S3: Yeah. Going back.
S2: To my original.
S3: Question.
S1: What would I change? What would I. What would I
S1: do better?
S2: Yeah.
S3: And speak for.
S2: Yourself. Speak on behalf of yourself. But also with the
S2: kids as well, I guess. But do not dare mention
S2: me in this. Okay.
S3: Um.
S1: Sometimes I worry about. The content that they're consuming. And
S1: it's because. I can't. I can't watch it all. You
S1: know what I mean? Like I.
S3: What do you mean?
S2: You want to. You want to watch it before them?
S1: No, I don't. It's. It's not possible for me to.
S1: Like when, you know, our daughter started reading more widely.
S1: I would often read the books before her. Yeah. So
S1: that a I had something, you know, we had conversation to,
S1: to have about it, but be just as like a
S1: bit of a screening. There weren't many things that I
S1: stopped her from reading because I think that it's important,
S1: especially with, with books. And I know that was certainly
S1: the case for me. That's how you learn, you know,
S1: that's how you figure out what you, you know what
S1: you like, where you fit, all that sort of stuff.
S1: But it was always good for me to know. What
S1: was happening there and the.
S2: A laugh because it's so strange. Books were basically when
S2: I was our daughter's age. I was reading Stephen King.
S1: Right. Okay. Yeah. And how messed up are you because
S1: of that?
S3: Not at all.
S2: That was more like that was me pushing boundaries or almost,
S2: you know, that was me going on websites that I
S2: shouldn't be going on like the equivalent. Maybe it's not.
S3: I don't think it is, though. Probably not. This is
S3: what I'm saying. I'm just.
S2: I'm trying. Like, are we being too protective?
S1: Sometimes I worry about that. I do. But kids are
S1: a long time growing up and I just think there
S1: is so much out there that has such detrimental impacts
S1: on them. Like we were talking about porn. Yes, that's
S1: the obvious one. But there's a whole Internet worth of
S1: stuff that can mess up a mind and. I don't
S1: feel bad about limiting access to that. Yeah. So I
S1: think sometimes I do tend to trust our kids in
S1: terms of the content that they're consuming because we have
S1: the open door policy because, you know, they know we.
S3: Can get on a lot and because.
S1: They know we can get on their phones at any point.
S1: They know that we monitor their screen time via my phone.
S1: They know all of that and they're fine with it,
S1: which makes me trust them. But I also know how
S1: easy it is to fall into spaces online that are
S1: not safe, that are not okay, that are not going
S1: to leave you feeling okay. And I know that as
S1: an adult, as a, you know, a tween, a teen,
S1: someone who's still trying to.
S2: Someone in.
S3: Between. Yeah.
S1: That's very easy to, you know, to fall into that
S1: that trap. So I guess my answer to your question
S1: is maybe. Monitoring the content. I don't know. I don't
S1: know because I'm really torn between what you're saying of like,
S1: are we overprotective?
S3: I think we're doing a pretty good job. Yeah.
S2: Like at the moment, I think it's it's, it's we're
S2: doing a pretty good job. I'd like to slightly reduce
S2: the amount of time there on YouTube, but that seems
S2: to be like a problem worldwide at the moment. I
S2: would like to stop the amount of time I'm on YouTube.
S1: So I have blown up about YouTube recently. Like I really.
S1: I hate it. I kind of hate it.
S3: Do you? Yeah, I.
S2: Why would you hate it? I'm not out of any.
S3: I hate social. Like I actually hate them all.
S1: Okay, I really do. So he's going back to what
S1: I was saying at the beginning of our conversation, how
S1: I get angry and ashamed because I'm ashamed that our
S1: generation is failing our kids. Yeah, that's truly how I feel. And.
S1: I'm angry because bastards like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk
S1: and whoever else or the tech bros are, they are
S1: making billions of dollars off people's misery and. What's even
S1: worse is that most of the time kids don't understand
S1: that they're miserable. Like I'm going to get really emotional.
S1: It really? It makes me so mad that people are
S1: making so much money off. Mental health crisis in kids.
S1: And I know that the content creators on the whole
S1: are not the problem. Like I get it, most kids
S1: grow up and they're like, I want to be a YouTuber.
S1: I want like, they're not growing up saying, I want
S1: to destroy someone's body image. I want to spread misinformation.
S1: I want to, you know, blow up conspiracy. Like they're
S1: not saying that. No one's saying that. They're like, I
S1: want to make fun videos with my friends. It's this
S1: machine that people get stuck in and that machine twists
S1: things around and makes people create content that is just
S1: that slightly bit more extreme and slightly and slightly and
S1: slightly until you've got money wrapped up in it and
S1: you've got all sorts of nefarious stuff wrapped up in
S1: it and.
S3: It is just.
S1: Destroying the way the kids, the way kids see themselves
S1: in the world and. That's no joke. That's not an
S1: easy thing to come back from. It is a crisis.
S1: I'm going to link in the show notes to a
S1: study that came out recently. I'm not across it enough
S1: to quote any of it, but it was really eye
S1: opening for me to see the the data, like the
S1: black and white numbers that show the link, not saying
S1: which is causing which, but showing the link between the
S1: advent of smartphones and social media with the beginning of
S1: the current mental health crisis. Um.
S2: Yeah. Without a. Without a doubt. It is connected.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Like it's.
S1: And then, you know, that's not even going into the
S1: data mining and, you know.
S2: Algorithms.
S3: And but.
S1: Like the people who are selling all the information about
S1: all the things that we watch and all the websites
S1: we visit and, you know, creating these. Uh, you know,
S1: online versions. I forget what the word is like the,
S1: you know, the online versions of us that they then
S1: sell to. Yeah. No, it's like a there's a word
S1: and I've just blanked on it, but.
S2: Ready? Player one.
S1: Sort of like an avatar, actually. Like an avatar. Yeah.
S1: They're creating these avatars of us based on what kids
S1: are watching. And they're using it to sell stuff. You know, So, look,
S1: I could. I could rant. I could.
S3: But that's why.
S2: I'm always shocked when the when you do get ads
S2: on on YouTube or Instagram, because they're designed or they're
S2: they're trying to be designed for you.
S3: Right? Yeah. I mean.
S2: And the amount of hair loss ones I've had recently
S2: an erectile dysfunction. Not a happy man.
S3: You hit.
S1: 40 and they're like, Well, obviously this.
S3: Is relevant.
S2: Oh, we should get one of these problems at least.
S1: But I mean, that's like basic that's like birth date stuff, right?
S1: And it's just kind of playing the numbers, but it's
S1: when it's, like really specific.
S3: Oh, no.
S1: Specific things.
S3: I shot.
S2: That turns me off if it's really specific. Like you
S2: mentioned something and then you look at your screen and
S2: then it's, you know, there's an ad for something like
S2: I just it I disconnect. Then I'm like, I'll put
S2: it down.
S3: That's just too.
S2: Spooky. It's just gross. And I mean, what a. What
S2: a mammoth topic that would probably hardly scratch the surface on.
S2: So we probably will. It's probably a revisit at some stage.
S1: Yeah, I think it probably is. It may even be
S1: like a. I don't know. Like a alive.
S3: Coal with people love coal.
S1: I'm just thinking it literally just.
S2: Dawned on you popped.
S1: Into my head. But it could be something that maybe
S1: if people are interested, um, we could have, like, a community.
S2: Discussion on it.
S3: Yeah.
S2: Yeah.
S1: I don't know, because I think you're right. There's just.
S1: There was a lot of emotion in that conversation and
S1: hopefully some practical as.
S2: We said at the start, it's one of the biggest
S2: issues facing parents today, if not society as a whole.
S2: Western society.
S1: Yeah, and it's certainly not just kids. And that's the
S1: other thing. I don't want kids and I don't want
S1: our kids. I don't want any kids to feel like.
S1: The amount of time they spend on their screen is
S1: a personal failing. And that's something that we have said
S1: to our kids many times, is, you know, when the
S1: hooks get their way into your brain, yeah, that's not
S1: your fault. That is not a failing on you as
S1: a person. That is a failing, that is a design
S1: of the system. Like you are up against an entire
S1: industry of people whose job it is, is to keep
S1: your eyes on your screen. That's all. They don't care
S1: if they're making you happy. They don't care if they're
S1: making you sad. They don't care if your mental health
S1: is crumbling because of what they're serving you. All they
S1: care about is your eyeballs on that screen. So I
S1: think reminding our kids, not making them feel like they're
S1: failing somehow, and also reminding ourselves when we beat ourselves
S1: up for the exact same reason. This is not a
S1: personal failing. This is not a moral failing. This is
S1: not a reflection on you not being strong enough or
S1: strong willed enough.
S2: This is the machine.
S3: It is.
S1: And. I think that's a really important, compassionate thing to
S1: begin with.
S2: And of those words that you used then saying that
S2: it's not your fault, you've used those with our kids.
S2: So I know. They work, you know, engages with them
S2: in a way that they're like, wow. Makes them think. Yeah.
S2: It really makes them think, Yeah. Now let's jump over
S2: to talk about.
S1: So our reflection. You know, we always like we have
S1: a conversation our reflection. Yeah. And it's always just something
S1: that I have consumed over the past few weeks that has.
S1: I don't know, lit me up or interested me or
S1: got me thinking. So previously it's been an article that
S1: I've read or a comment over on Substack. So this
S1: time it is a documentary, one that I watched yesterday.
S1: I was lucky enough to get a pre screener from
S1: the pre-release screener, from the producers who asked actually if
S1: I wanted to have the director on as a podcast
S1: guest and we don't do interviews anymore. They sent me
S1: a and.
S2: I said, no way, Jose, I'm the only guest on
S2: this show.
S3: Now. Exactly.
S1: And they sent me a screener anyway, and I loved it.
S1: So it's called Rachel's Farm, and it is a I
S1: know some of the people involved were the same team
S1: who made 2040 a few years ago, which was.
S3: Great.
S2: Documentary.
S1: Really awesome documentary, Hope Filled. And. You know, ask the
S1: big questions about what the world might look like in 2040.
S1: If we did these five things. This is in a
S1: similar vein, and it's very uplifting, but it's also a
S1: much smaller story. So Rachel is Rachel Ward, who is
S1: an actress.
S2: Australian actor.
S1: She's English actually.
S3: But English actress.
S1: She lives in Australia, has for a long time, is
S1: married to Brian Brown. The most Australian of actors. Isn't Brown.
S3: Isn't he.
S2: A New Zealander?
S1: Oh God, don't think so.
S2: I am going to check that while you keep going.
S3: Russell Crowe is.
S1: A New Zealander. I know we like claiming things for ourselves,
S1: but anyway, so she owns some property up on the
S1: Northern Rivers and. The entire premise of the documentary is
S1: her transitioning that land to regenerative farmed land region agriculture. Sorry,
S1: Go ahead.
S2: Pannonia He was born. So a very Aussie, very Australian.
S1: Uh, what I really like about it is that she
S1: begins by basically owning up to her own ignorance. And
S1: the story also begins as a result of the Black
S1: Summer bushfires and her personal despair and the depression and
S1: the anxiety and the overwhelm and almost the. Complete shutting
S1: down that she did emotionally as a result of it.
S1: And that is something that I can relate to very closely. Yeah. Um,
S1: she called herself thin skinned at one point in the
S1: documentary in that she feels things incredibly deeply and they
S1: really affect her. And I.
S3: That's you? Yeah.
S2: You got translucent skin.
S3: Yeah.
S1: I'm sure sometimes I don't even have any skin. Um.
S1: So I know that there are a lot of people
S1: who read at the Tortoise and who listened to the
S1: podcast who are similarly inclined. Like we've got a lot
S1: of big feelers in our audience, and I think that
S1: this will resonate with them because of that, but also
S1: because they're people who are looking for a way forward.
S1: And this was Rachel Ward's way forward. She's like, I
S1: used to run cattle on this land, and over the
S1: last 30 years, we have degraded this land. And they
S1: showed like they measure their topsoil and there's hardly any
S1: left and there's no biodiversity. And, you know, it's about
S1: the very long, very real, very honest process.
S3: Very slow.
S1: Well, yeah, very slow.
S2: Tortoise the.
S1: Process of. Regenerating that land through using. Cattle through using
S1: indigenous wisdom and knowledge. It's really, really cool and very
S1: human like they. Make mistakes. They show the tough stuff,
S1: you know, and I don't think we see that very often.
S2: What was that show that we watched during lockdown, I think.
S2: And it was an American. It just sounds a bit
S2: like this, where they ran a farm.
S1: Like Apricot.
S3: Lane.
S1: Farm or something like that. And they had the pig.
S3: Yes, that.
S1: One. Yeah. Yeah. Not dissimilar. I don't think.
S3: I feel like it's very.
S2: Similar to that.
S3: Yeah.
S1: And. It's interesting to me for a few reasons. So
S1: these guys, they run cattle and that remains part of
S1: their business strategy is to run cattle. She's a vegetarian
S1: and she's like, that was partly because of, you know,
S1: environmental reasons. So to see her not become not a vegetarian,
S1: but to see her recognize that running cattle responsibly and
S1: regenerative can actually become part of the solution was really interesting.
S1: And also because their property used to be managed by
S1: an older farmer who was very traditional, very industrial farming
S1: with his methods and for very good reasons, you know,
S1: it's the way he'd always done it and it had
S1: always served them fairly well. His son comes in and
S1: after a number of years says this is not sustainable
S1: and goes around. His dad has a lot of difficult
S1: conversations with his dad about changing the way they farm.
S1: And his dad's like, I can't I can't agree with you.
S1: So it's like this microcosm of generational change of, you know,
S1: a new generation of people coming up. And being prepared
S1: to put their money where their mouth is, quite literally
S1: in some instances and make the difficult. You can't literally
S1: put your money.
S3: Right.
S1: Where your mouth is. Anyway, I found it really inspiring.
S1: I found it really uplifting. Um. I felt like. Um,
S1: I felt like, hopeful. I felt. Yeah, that was possibility
S1: wrapped up in it, you know?
S3: Um.
S2: Did it make it feel accessible or not? Or did
S2: it make it sound like it's two too much hard work?
S3: What?
S1: It made it. It sound like it's a lot of
S1: hard work and probably too much hard work for most
S1: people to do, including Brian Brown. Actually, he even said
S1: that he's like, I couldn't do what they're doing. There's
S1: no way you don't don't want to work that hard. But.
S1: It made it. Accessible to us as consumers. To be
S1: supporting people who are doing this work. No, that's that's
S1: where change comes. Like, there's going to be a select
S1: group of people who have the knowhow, who have the money,
S1: who have the capacity, who have the land and the desire.
S1: That's not not going to be a lot of people.
S1: But if everyone who believes in what they're doing supports
S1: them when they can, they're going to be able to
S1: continue doing what they're doing. You know? And I thought
S1: that was a really. Important part of the whole message.
S1: We sort of. Making clear how it is a system.
S1: And a number of people said in the documentary, everything
S1: and everyone is connected and that goes to. Rewriting the
S1: rules of the system. You know, we don't have to
S1: be reliant on. A couple of big industrial producers we
S1: can actually. Shift to a more community minded, regenerative minded
S1: way of attaining food, not just meat. You know, she
S1: also talks a little bit about vegetables and things. So anyway.
S3: Where can.
S2: People go to.
S3: Find out?
S1: In Australia it is being released in cinemas the first
S1: week of August on a limited run at this point.
S1: But if there is a cinema near you screening it,
S1: I just really recommend and encourage you to go because
S1: the more bums in seats they get at these films,
S1: the more sessions they're going to be able to run,
S1: the more, you know, successful it will be. But I
S1: know Rachel Ward is actually doing quite a significant tour
S1: with the film, so check on the film. I'll leave
S1: a link to this in the show notes to the website,
S1: but check over there and see if she's coming to
S1: somewhere near you. You might want to go along and
S1: have a listen to a Q&A with her. I know
S1: in the States she's touring September, October, and I'm assuming
S1: that not long after that it will be available to stream. Um.
S1: Whether it's on Apple or it gets picked up by
S1: one of the streamers, I don't know. But yeah, definitely
S1: go over to a website Rachel's farm.com you think it
S1: is and you can get on the mailing list and
S1: check out what they're doing. But yeah, I thought I
S1: really wanted to put that in front of people because
S1: I really enjoyed it.
S2: Well, that's been a. Pretty long and winding episode really
S2: been interrupted a lot. But we've persevered. We have. We're
S2: going to spare the listener to those interruptions, so we'll
S2: do some editing. Even though this is a non edited podcast, it's.
S1: Typically very non edited.
S2: But some of it is quite unlistenable.
S3: So no one needs.
S1: To hear the dogs barking that much new. Well, honey,
S1: enjoy your holiday.
S3: I'll be there.
S2: You're coming. Just a nice little week holiday to, uh. Yeah.
S2: Reset for the beginning. Beginning of the financial year. Why
S2: am I your best with this?
S3: You're not even.
S1: Accountant.
S3: Oh.
S1: Anyway, that's fine. We can have a little New Year's
S1: Eve party if you'd like.
S2: Very good. Very good.
S1: Well, we'll be back in your ears next month. But
S1: in the meantime, if you want to know what I'm
S1: up to, I'm writing over at the tortoise a couple
S1: of times a week. Most weeks. If you wanted to
S1: head over there and jump on the tortoise mailing list,
S1: I would love to have you. There's quite a few
S1: thousand of us over there now, and it's developing into
S1: a really beautiful little corner of the Internet or some
S1: little community. Um, so yeah, head over to Brooklyn Gallery
S1: substack.com if you want to join us over there. That's
S1: where you'll also find the links in from today's episode.
S1: I think that's it.
S2: We always value your feedback whether that's. Yeah. Over on
S2: the sub stacks or iTunes, Spotify ratings, reviews, likes and
S2: shares or very appreciative of of that.
S1: So also if.
S3: You're very.
S1: If the idea of having a conversation about technology like
S1: if you know kids or if there's something in particular.
S2: Because we know this is a this is a big
S2: topic for the amount of questions we've had on this
S2: topic over the years, it would have to be in
S2: the top three themes and topics to discuss.
S1: Yeah, it's certainly something that we would consider maybe hosting.
S1: Q&A or something with our community.
S3: Do a live.
S2: Podcast.
S1: Well, maybe we maybe we could.
S2: To to tortoise subscribers. Yeah. I going to be pretty fun. Okay.
S1: So anyway, if that interests you at all, if you
S1: feel like there's more mileage to this conversation, leave a
S1: comment on today's episode and.
S2: Leave a tortoise emoji. Okay.
S3: Sure. That's quick.
S1: I like it. Love that little tortoise emoji. He looks
S1: very friendly, but, you know, and we'll take a level
S1: of interest from there and see what happens. But until then, peace.
S1: Have a wonderful day. Take good care.
UU: And we'll see you soon.