Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we are
Speaker 1: so excited to be joined by a friend of the show,
Speaker 1: general friend Joey.
Speaker 2: Welcome Joe my friend's status. We girl. We need to
Speaker 2: meet in in IRL. We do. I need to go
Speaker 2: to Atlanta soon.
Speaker 3: I'm waiting until it starts getting cold here, so I
Speaker 3: don't want to be in New York and then I
Speaker 3: will definitely be out in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: That's smart because it's very hot here.
Speaker 2: But yes, I cannot cannot wait.
Speaker 1: And it's been a minute since you've been on here,
Speaker 1: so we're really excited to have you back. And this
Speaker 1: topic is one that I'm really interested to learn more about.
Speaker 1: And I think you and I were discussing before this.
Speaker 1: I sort of learned about it at the same time
Speaker 1: as you did, but perhaps slightly differently. Yeah, but yes,
Speaker 1: today we're talking about KOSA. So can you just like
Speaker 1: intro what we're discussing today for sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So, Okisa, I'm going to be talking about KOSA, which
Speaker 3: is the Kids Online Safety Act and sort of this
Speaker 3: onslought of bills in Congress right now that are aimed
Speaker 3: at quote protecting kids online.
Speaker 2: We live in a weird time, and there's.
Speaker 3: A lot of weird, terrible, repressive legislation going on this
Speaker 3: set of bills that we're going to focus on, and
Speaker 3: I think I was already sort of concerned about this
Speaker 3: when I started writing this. I think, especially after researching
Speaker 3: this whole thing, this piece of legislation is one of,
Speaker 3: if not the thing that I'm probably most worried about
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 2: I think it is.
Speaker 3: It has a lot of potential really catastrophic outcomes that
Speaker 3: could happen from this, and it's been a little bit
Speaker 3: scary to see sort of how it's been repackaged a
Speaker 3: lot in mainstream coverage and how a lot of sort
Speaker 3: of the issues of it regarding it have been kind
Speaker 3: of glossed over in paper with this idea of like
Speaker 3: quote protecting kids. And yeah, I'm going to get more
Speaker 3: into that, but so really quick, just content warning. I'm
Speaker 3: going to be discussing some mental health crisises, suicide, self harm, bullying,
Speaker 3: child abuse. None of it's super explicit, but these are
Speaker 3: things that aren't going to come up. And also just
Speaker 3: transphobia and homophobia and some of the legislation that has
Speaker 3: been weaponizing these phobias. Anyways, as Annie and I were
Speaker 3: speaking out before this, I first heard about this through TikTok,
Speaker 3: like many people, I think, because again, this is a
Speaker 3: peaceable legislation that's in Congress right now and is happening
Speaker 3: tangentially to a lot of other similar pieces of legislation.
Speaker 3: The TikTok has been a big place, a big platform
Speaker 3: for activists to speak about this. To creators in particular,
Speaker 3: I want to shout out are Sarah Phillips. I think
Speaker 3: her ad is just Sarah E. Phillips. And then also
Speaker 3: the creator Omar's big sister. I don't know what her
Speaker 3: actual name is, but I love her TikTok. She's hilarious,
Speaker 3: very super online internet kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Love it. But anyways, she's lit a lot of.
Speaker 3: Really great work and talking about this issue and getting
Speaker 3: information out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I Samantha as usual kind of
Speaker 1: my TikTok person who sends me to tson I need
Speaker 1: sent me some about this of the day the tragic
Speaker 1: day that AO three went down and fan fiction was
Speaker 1: oh yeah unavailable.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was also a big thing that.
Speaker 3: Kind of sparked a lot of this. Obviously, like people
Speaker 3: were talking about this beforehand. There was a lot of
Speaker 3: organizing that was happening. But about a month ago AO three,
Speaker 3: which is this thing fan fiction site. We've talked about
Speaker 3: the show a couple of times. It shut down for
Speaker 3: like a day. It turned out there was some whole
Speaker 3: I don't I still don't totally know what the story is.
Speaker 3: There are like a lot of weird things that was happening.
Speaker 3: I think I saw it was hacked or something. But
Speaker 3: something that was coming up that day was like, Hey,
Speaker 3: this sucked that we didn't have fan fiction for a day.
Speaker 3: This could be a permanent thing if this legislation passes, Like,
Speaker 3: we should talk about this because I'm some again, I'm
Speaker 3: somebody who enjoys fan fiction. I think it is, you know,
Speaker 3: an important part of the Internet.
Speaker 2: And all of that.
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of other even if you don't
Speaker 3: care about fan fiction, there's a lot of things this
Speaker 3: legislation's going to effect that are a little bit scary.
Speaker 3: So yeah, So COSA, the Kids Online Safety Act What
Speaker 3: is it? COSA is one of again an on slide
Speaker 3: of recent bills aimed at regulating kids online activity and
Speaker 3: data privacy, which in theory seems not terrible.
Speaker 2: There's two things here. One is data.
Speaker 3: Privacy, which we don't really have a lot of in
Speaker 3: this country, and I do think that is a very
Speaker 3: important issue. But if you look at the actual bill,
Speaker 3: it doesn't really do much to protect data privacy. In fact,
Speaker 3: it kind of does the opposite, and it forces people
Speaker 3: to put a lot more information online.
Speaker 2: Tech experts have.
Speaker 3: Said that this bill will end up requiring everyone to
Speaker 3: upload their government ID when they want to use the Internet, which, like, just.
Speaker 2: Think about that for a second. Again. Going back to
Speaker 2: Omar's big sister, one of.
Speaker 3: My favorite TikTokers who does some great work on this,
Speaker 3: she made a couple of videos about this one talking
Speaker 3: about this particular concept, and she pointed out two really
Speaker 3: important things. One, if this happens again, your government ID
Speaker 3: will be attached to everything that you do online. So
Speaker 3: if you're speaking out against the government, if you are
Speaker 3: part of a marginalized group, this can be used to
Speaker 3: target you. Like this will now be attached to your
Speaker 3: official sort of ID that usually has like your birthday,
Speaker 3: usually your address. People already get docs for activism they're
Speaker 3: doing or just identic that they have, and this will
Speaker 3: make it so much easier. And then the second point
Speaker 3: that you made was like this is the site you
Speaker 3: need to upload your ID two, and then that site
Speaker 3: could be hacked very easily, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: all of your information could be leaked online. Like again,
Speaker 3: this whole thing is about we're protecting kids data, We're
Speaker 3: protecting data privacy. Yes I did just say data and data.
Speaker 3: I don't do the same word, but yeah, it ends
Speaker 3: it does the opposite. It ends up doing the opposite
Speaker 3: for everybody. It makes it less safe for people to
Speaker 3: be online. So the main focus of this episode is
Speaker 3: going to be on that first part, which is this
Speaker 3: idea of regulating kids online activity, which again just saying
Speaker 3: it like that, that sounds great. The internet's crazy. If
Speaker 3: you're a parent, you have a young kid, like I
Speaker 3: can't imagine what that's like. You're totally gonna want to
Speaker 3: have like some guardrails in place. You're going to want
Speaker 3: to have things that you don't want your kids to see.
Speaker 3: But the problem is this piece of legislation is very vague,
Speaker 3: it's coming up at a very strange time, and there's
Speaker 3: a very clear disconnect between how it's sort of being
Speaker 3: marketed and the actual motivation behind it and the reality
Speaker 3: of what it's going to be used for.
Speaker 2: So Fight for the.
Speaker 3: Future is an advocacy group that focuses on tech policy issues,
Speaker 3: particularly data privacy. They created a website that's called stopcosa
Speaker 3: dot com will have in the show notes, but on
Speaker 3: that website they state KOSA claims to make kids safer,
Speaker 3: but it's really a dangerous censorship bill that would give
Speaker 3: the government unprecedented control over the Internet. This would put
Speaker 3: youth in danger by preventing them from accessing potentially life
Speaker 3: saving resources. Lawmakers concerned about online safety should reject KOSA
Speaker 3: and instead work to protect all Internet users from abusive
Speaker 3: tech companies by passing a federal data privacy law. And
Speaker 3: like first Things First, uptop, I'm going to be talking
Speaker 3: a lot, a lot about the problems with a specific
Speaker 3: legislation and also talking about some of the positives of
Speaker 3: social media and the Internet.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that the Internet.
Speaker 3: Isn't also deeply messed up, and there aren't a lot
Speaker 3: of concerns about again data privacy and what kids are
Speaker 3: seeing online, what people have access to.
Speaker 2: I think there is a conversation that needs to be
Speaker 2: had there.
Speaker 3: This bill is not the solution this bill that is
Speaker 3: just going to be used as a method of censorship.
Speaker 2: It's not the solution.
Speaker 3: Again, I'm not really a tech person. I don't know
Speaker 3: the specifics of how a lot of stuff works. But
Speaker 3: we do need data privacy laws in this country, like
Speaker 3: that is something we need. I think it is really
Speaker 3: telling that these politicians are focusing on a lot of
Speaker 3: these bills that are focused on censorship rather than actually
Speaker 3: protecting data.
Speaker 2: And then also at the.
Speaker 3: Top, clearly there is like a problem again, like there
Speaker 3: are a lot of problems with the Internet.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of problems with how kids.
Speaker 3: Interact with the Internet, and how we interact with the Internet,
Speaker 3: and how technology is regulated. But again, rather than addressing
Speaker 3: data privacy or mental health, which is going to come
Speaker 3: up a lot in this bill, that's not what they're doing.
Speaker 3: So again for the future, they said a first COSA
Speaker 3: would pressure platforms to install filters that would wipe the
Speaker 3: net of anything deemed quote inappropriate for minors. This equals
Speaker 3: instructing platforms to sensor plain and simple that already use
Speaker 3: content filters have restricted important information about suicide prevention and
Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus support groups and KOSO would spread this kind
Speaker 3: of censorship to every corner of the Internet. It's no
Speaker 3: surprise that anti writes slits are excited about KOSA. It
Speaker 3: would let them shut down websites that cover topics like race, gender,
Speaker 3: and sexuality. Second, KOSO would ramp up the online surveillance
Speaker 3: of all Internet users by expanding the use of age
Speaker 3: verification and parental monitoring tools. Not only are these tools
Speaker 3: needlessly invasive, they are a massive safety risk for young
Speaker 3: people who could be trying to escape domestic violence and abuse.
Speaker 3: And then also when we talk about this bill, they use,
Speaker 3: you know, language like kids and children a lot that's
Speaker 3: just referring to anybody seventeen and younger, which again is
Speaker 3: like the definition of a child. But I think that
Speaker 3: there's something very intentional about using the word kids, and
Speaker 3: like when you hear kids, you're thinking of like an
Speaker 3: eight year old, not you're not thinking of a seventeen
Speaker 3: year old.
Speaker 2: But I think, like, especially as we talk about how
Speaker 2: this bill.
Speaker 3: Is going to affect information about like sexual and reproductive health,
Speaker 3: which are very important things for people to learn, usually
Speaker 3: in their teen years. Like again we're talking about teenagers
Speaker 3: on having access to this information we're not talking about, like,
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, five year olds.
Speaker 3: And yeah, again, this isn't a coincidence that all this
Speaker 3: is happening at the same time there's this huge backlash
Speaker 3: against queer and trans people, particularly queer and trans kids
Speaker 3: in this country. And so let's talk about who's actually
Speaker 3: behind the bill. There's two main sponsors. One is Senator
Speaker 3: Marshall Blackburn of Tennessee, who's a Republican, and then the
Speaker 3: other is Senator Richard Blumenthal from Connecticut, who's a Democrat.
Speaker 2: We love bipartisan repression.
Speaker 3: All right, but anyways, I'm going to start with Senator
Speaker 3: Blackburn and the right wing push for this bill. I'm
Speaker 3: going to get to Senator Blumenthal for a minute because
Speaker 3: I some weird stuff on him. But anyways, Also, agism
Speaker 3: is bad. We've talked about this on the show. Agism
Speaker 3: is a terrible thing. That being said, I think it
Speaker 3: is worth pointing out both Blackburn and Bluementhal are in
Speaker 3: their seventies, and like, I know, it's complicate, legislation is complicated.
Speaker 2: A lot of people were on legislation, but.
Speaker 3: Like, personally, there's something really weird to be about the
Speaker 3: fact that the two sponsors of this bill are in
Speaker 3: their seventies, and most of the people that are like
Speaker 3: promoting this are on the older side. And then meanwhile,
Speaker 3: if you look at a lot of the backlash and
Speaker 3: a lot of the people are speaking out against it,
Speaker 3: it's a lot of like twenty something or thirty something
Speaker 3: year olds or teenagers, you know, And we're the people
Speaker 3: that actually grew up on the internet. Like I'm I'm
Speaker 3: twenty four. I like the Internet has been a part
Speaker 3: of my life since I was a kid. I there
Speaker 3: is a generation alive right now that actually has experienced this,
Speaker 3: and I think deliberately not looking to those people to
Speaker 3: kind of lead this discussion is weird and it's just
Speaker 3: not gonna like end well. There is a quote like
Speaker 3: gen Z activist group that has been supporting this bill.
Speaker 3: It's called Design It for Us. Their Instagram bio says
Speaker 3: a coalition of young activists and organizations fighting for safer
Speaker 3: social media and online platforms for kids, teens, and young adults.
Speaker 3: I haven't really been able to find much information on
Speaker 3: this organization. Honestly, the most telling thing for me they
Speaker 3: have three hundred and twenty six Instagram followers, which is fine.
Speaker 3: Instagram's not for everybody, but if you aren't, you're calling
Speaker 3: yourself like a gen Z activist organization. You have three
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty six Instagram followers like that's my mom
Speaker 3: has more.
Speaker 2: Instagram followers like I don't wish again. She's gonna listen
Speaker 2: to get mad at me. That does not change her.
Speaker 2: It's just like, is it I gotta call your mama
Speaker 2: like that? I get a very angry text after she
Speaker 2: you know whatever I need to the point of reference anyways.
Speaker 3: So yeah, they're definitely there's there's this sort of disconnect
Speaker 3: between that I say this, I probably the same age
Speaker 3: as your mama and around the same round following.
Speaker 2: So how dare you'll get that for her?
Speaker 3: She can make fun of me about having to text
Speaker 3: her about like how to send a letter.
Speaker 2: She can g your poor mother, I'm so sorry. I'm
Speaker 2: with you one back to Senator Blackford.
Speaker 3: So a May article from the Electronic Freedom Foundation written
Speaker 3: by Jason Kelly stated that coosa's co author, Senator Blackburn
Speaker 3: of Tennessee, has referred to education about and race discrimination
Speaker 3: as quote dangerous for kids. Many states have agreed, and
Speaker 3: recently moved to limit public education of the history of race, gender,
Speaker 3: and sexuality discrimination. COSA passes platforms are likely to preemptively
Speaker 3: block conversations that discuss these topics, as well as discussions
Speaker 3: about substance abuse, suicide, and eating disorders, and there's not
Speaker 3: clear agreement on their causes or their solutions referring to
Speaker 3: suicide and disorders and substance abuse, So yeah, there's a
Speaker 3: lot to unpack. First things First, we're living in the
Speaker 3: middle of an active push to criminalize the existence of
Speaker 3: a minority group in the US. The right wing of
Speaker 3: this country are actively trying to kill trans people. I
Speaker 3: have no problem just saying that, y'all straight up had
Speaker 3: a spokesperson at CPAXA like trans people need to be eliminated.
Speaker 2: It's very mask off at this point.
Speaker 3: Senator Blackburn clearly and sort of that same boat and
Speaker 3: says queer people, you are also being targeted.
Speaker 2: You are also now part of this group, like you
Speaker 2: guys are next.
Speaker 3: We know where this is going anyways, So these same
Speaker 3: people that are fueling this panic about queer and trans people,
Speaker 3: they're now saying they want authority to dictate what is
Speaker 3: and what is not appropriate for kids online.
Speaker 2: This I think is particularly relevant right now.
Speaker 3: There's a wide piece of misinformation that's circulating right now
Speaker 3: that's called the social contagent theory that basically claims that
Speaker 3: exposure to trans people or media that talks about trans
Speaker 3: people will somehow convince otherwise this gender kids that they're
Speaker 3: trans too. It's based on and this really weird claim
Speaker 3: that there's just like so many kids coming out as
Speaker 3: transgender right now.
Speaker 2: I don't really get where that's coming from.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this idea that like coming out is frands is
Speaker 3: like a cool trendy thing to do with everybody. Again,
Speaker 3: I don't know why people think that that's very much
Speaker 3: not the case.
Speaker 2: Coming out is still very very difficult.
Speaker 3: Anyways, a lot of Turfs in particular flash on to
Speaker 3: this idea. I would totally recommend checking out the Anti
Speaker 3: trans Hate Machine podcast.
Speaker 2: With Lamar Jones.
Speaker 3: She did a really great deep dive into how this
Speaker 3: theory circulated and a lot of like the right wing
Speaker 3: push behind it.
Speaker 2: One thing I also think is really scary about this
Speaker 2: is that.
Speaker 3: You know, more than like the sort of hyper religious
Speaker 3: conservative angle of transphobia, I think this can be very
Speaker 3: appealing to a lot of people that like consider themselves
Speaker 3: to be like center left or left. This has made
Speaker 3: its way into a lot of mainstream coverage of trans people.
Speaker 3: It's made its way into the New York Times coverage.
Speaker 3: I think, like this is scarier to me than like
Speaker 3: this sort of evangelical, super ultra right Christian in gold
Speaker 3: that is also super terrifying. But yeah, and again, there's
Speaker 3: no evidence for this. This entire like theory quote unquote
Speaker 3: comes from one study from one doctor. The organization that
Speaker 3: published it later refeted it, and a number of medical
Speaker 3: organizations have come out and said that there's no evidence
Speaker 3: this is actually a thing. Also, again, like I don't
Speaker 3: get why this is so hard for sis stray people
Speaker 3: to understand, but like, think about it. Okay, you could
Speaker 3: be arrested for not dressing a close enough to your gender,
Speaker 3: regardless if you were a trans or not, like not
Speaker 3: dressing feminine or masculine enough up until like the seventies,
Speaker 3: and then like the AIDS crisis happened and a lot
Speaker 3: of people died, and then the next twenty years it
Speaker 3: wasn't like there wasn't there was still a lot of homophobia.
Speaker 2: There was still a lot of transphobia that was very
Speaker 2: well accepted. Maybe the reason.
Speaker 3: More people are coming out as trans now, is just
Speaker 3: that like we live in a slightly more accepting society,
Speaker 3: and yes, we are quickly rolling backwards too, but like
Speaker 3: we do live in a time where there's some precedent
Speaker 3: visibility and that can be really helpful, especially and again,
Speaker 3: like if you're a trans kid and you've never been
Speaker 3: exposed to this idea that like you can be trans,
Speaker 3: that's a possibility, and then suddenly, like you see a
Speaker 3: piece of media where they talk about trans people, whether
Speaker 3: that's like through the Internet or TV or just like
Speaker 3: a book you read, like that can help you realize
Speaker 3: your trans That's one of the beautiful things I think
Speaker 3: about a lot of media and a lot of entertainment
Speaker 3: media and fiction too, is like people see themselves reflected
Speaker 3: in it. So like, yeah, if you have a kid
Speaker 3: and they watch to show about trans people and then
Speaker 3: all of a sudden they were like, I think I'm trans,
Speaker 3: that probably means they're trans. That probably just means they
Speaker 3: saw themselves for the first time. And then also this
Speaker 3: whole idea of like, oh, your friend came out of trans,
Speaker 3: so now you're gonna come out of trans. Like we
Speaker 3: all kind of find each other, like we all kind
Speaker 3: of you know, it's it's like having any sort of
Speaker 3: marginalized identity, you're gonna want to find people's similar experiences
Speaker 3: to you. It makes sense that trans kids are going
Speaker 3: to sort of lash onto each other moren't friendships.
Speaker 2: And again, like I think when.
Speaker 3: We're talking about the Internet, we're talking about this issue
Speaker 3: particularly involving the Internet. So for some people, the Internet
Speaker 3: is that space where they find these connections, They find
Speaker 3: connections with other trans kids, they find connections with other
Speaker 3: trans people.
Speaker 2: That was my experience growing up.
Speaker 3: I I was, you know, growing up when Tumblr was
Speaker 3: a big thing, and like Tumblr was sort of my
Speaker 3: first exposure to like other queer people and like queer community.
Speaker 3: And there's positives and negatives of that, but again I
Speaker 3: think I'm glad that I had that instead of just
Speaker 3: not having anything.
Speaker 2: And again, there is a discussion that we had about
Speaker 2: like online.
Speaker 3: Safety and all that, but just saying we need to
Speaker 3: censor all this, we need to let kids like not
Speaker 3: have any accesses, that is not the answer that is
Speaker 3: going to end up causing more harm than good.
Speaker 2: And again, like when it is.
Speaker 3: Terrifying this whole idea that like the whole social contagion idea.
Speaker 3: It is rooted in this idea that being trans is wrong.
Speaker 3: It is rooted in this idea that like there's something
Speaker 3: wrong with you if your trans are queer. Because in
Speaker 3: all honesty, too, it's like worst case scenario. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 3: it is a phase. Maybe a kid comes out as
Speaker 3: trans and then later they decide they're not. That's normal,
Speaker 3: kids go through phases, Like I don't know, it is.
Speaker 2: It's very strange that there's been this like.
Speaker 3: Massive backlash to the idea of even considering that you
Speaker 3: might be trans or you might not be your assigned
Speaker 3: gender at birth. So the Heritage Foundation has also been
Speaker 3: a big supporter of this bill surprise surprise, as on
Speaker 3: May twentieth, they tweeted quote, keeping trans content away from
Speaker 3: children is protecting kids in response to somebody pointing out,
Speaker 3: you know, another quote where they were talking about like, yes,
Speaker 3: we want this bill to pass because we can stop
Speaker 3: trans and queer people from existing on the internet. And yeah, again,
Speaker 3: very mask off, like it's very obvious what they're going
Speaker 3: to be using this legislation for. Another big supporter of
Speaker 3: the bill is the National Center on Sexual Expectation, which
Speaker 3: a Vice article by Janie Rose described as a far
Speaker 3: right quote and anti trafficking group previously known as Morality
Speaker 3: and Media that has lobbied against porn, sex workers, and
Speaker 3: LGBT rights since the nineteen sixties. Again, I'm not saying
Speaker 3: there isn't a lot of problems with the porn industry,
Speaker 3: but it feels very strange to me that they're like,
Speaker 3: we're an anti trafficking group and then their main things
Speaker 3: they're lobbying against are porn and LGBT rights and sex workers. Anyways,
Speaker 3: just seems weird. Back to that Vice article quote, the
Speaker 3: group's president, Patrick Truman, has previously worked for the American
Speaker 3: Family Association and the Family Research Council, both far right
Speaker 3: Christian organizations that have been designated as anti LGBTQ hate
Speaker 3: groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. So, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is legislation that's being supported by hate groups. I think
Speaker 3: that is worth pointing out. And Yeah, one of the
Speaker 3: really messed up things about all of this and a
Speaker 3: a lot of this legislation is a lot of times
Speaker 3: it's framed as protecting kids, as stopping child abuse, stopping trafficking,
Speaker 3: which all seem great, but that can very easily be
Speaker 3: used as sort of a mask for anti LGBT, anti
Speaker 3: people just talking about sexuality in general, people talking about
Speaker 3: reproductive healthcare, especially in like a post QAnon America. I
Speaker 3: would always be cautious if a piece of legislation is
Speaker 3: talking about protecting kids or anti trafficking, there's a very
Speaker 3: good chance that's sort of upfront for something else. And
Speaker 3: the frustrating part about that is like, yeah, trafficking is
Speaker 3: an issue, kids being abused is an issue. We should
Speaker 3: be addressing those ideas. But this isn't actually addressing that.
Speaker 3: This is addressing very different issues. And yeah, again I'm
Speaker 3: focusing a lot on LGBT couplus issues and how these
Speaker 3: are going to be affected by the bill because I
Speaker 3: think that's the most obvious right now and probably like
Speaker 3: the first thing that it will be used for. But again,
Speaker 3: going back to that quote about Senator Blackburn, a lot
Speaker 3: of these politicians and advocates are like the same people
Speaker 3: are also saying that learning about racism is inappropriate for children,
Speaker 3: or learning anything about sexual and reproductive health.
Speaker 2: There was that article that just came out that was
Speaker 2: like you basically can't teach.
Speaker 3: Ap psych in Florida anymore because of like that don't
Speaker 3: say gay bill like that.
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
Speaker 3: This isn't There's so many things that could be kind
Speaker 3: of caught in.
Speaker 2: The net of what this bill allows politicians to regulate.
Speaker 3: And then so going back to that quote again from
Speaker 3: the Electronic Freedom Foundation about the bill and its sponsors,
Speaker 3: it also points out that the bill passed.
Speaker 2: If the bill passes, quote.
Speaker 3: Platforms are likely to preemptively black discussions about substance abuse, suicide,
Speaker 3: and aiding disorders, which I think is the other side
Speaker 3: of this, this discussion about mental health. And again I'm
Speaker 3: not saying social media can't be used to promote those things.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I was a tumbler kid. I have
Speaker 3: seen all of the worst of this, but they are
Speaker 3: very complicated issues.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that cause this.
Speaker 3: People talk about, like the mental health crisis happening right now,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of factors that contribute to that. And
Speaker 3: also the Internet and social media can also be tools
Speaker 3: for helping find support. Again, the Internet is just a platform.
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily good or bad. It is just a
Speaker 3: way of distributing information, and you can just as easily
Speaker 3: find things that will help you as you can find
Speaker 3: things that will harm you. So from that same article
Speaker 3: again they said quote to pick just one example. In
Speaker 3: some communities, safe injection sites are seen as part of
Speaker 3: a solution to substance abuse, and others they are seen
Speaker 3: as part of the problem. Under KOSA, could a platform
Speaker 3: be sued for displaying content about them or about needle exchanges,
Speaker 3: malaxa or other harm reduction techniques. So yeah, again, the
Speaker 3: problem with this is that yes, it'll block informa, it'll
Speaker 3: block things that will supposedly promote eating disorders or substance abuse,
Speaker 3: but then it'll also block information about getting help and
Speaker 3: on that mental health thread. Because again, so this has
Speaker 3: been something I think supporters of libill have really latched
Speaker 3: on doo and again we were talking about kind of
Speaker 3: the right wing backlash. I think this has been a
Speaker 3: little bit more universal, a little bit more bipartisan. They're
Speaker 3: arguing that the internet and the kids, the things that
Speaker 3: kids are seeing on the Internet are the sole causes
Speaker 3: of all of these things like depression, eating disorders, addiction,
Speaker 3: self harm, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Again, which are all very complicated issues. These things didn't.
Speaker 3: Just randomly appear when the Internet appears. They've been around
Speaker 3: for a while. I think they're more visible now for
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, but.
Speaker 2: They've always kind of been there.
Speaker 3: And again, there's definitely a conversation we had about the
Speaker 3: mental health crisis happening in this country, but just blaming
Speaker 3: the Internet for it is dangerously simplifying those situation and
Speaker 3: it's just a weird, like disinformed take. It's going to
Speaker 3: end up causing it more harm than good. And so
Speaker 3: a lot of this is coming from They're recently wise
Speaker 3: this report from the US Surgeon General, which was an
Speaker 3: advisory on social Media and Youth Mental health that called
Speaker 3: to attention the negative impacts that social media can have
Speaker 3: on kids' mental health. And this is a great report.
Speaker 3: I totally encourage people to check it out. I think
Speaker 3: it does a good job of, like again, laying out
Speaker 3: a lot of these issues and laying out how social
Speaker 3: media can make these problems worse, which again I'm not
Speaker 3: denying that that is a thing. I'm not denying the
Speaker 3: fact that social media can contribute to these problems. But
Speaker 3: one thing I think was interesting about the study, and
Speaker 3: that is sort of being looked over by a lot
Speaker 3: of the coverage of it, is that it also does
Speaker 3: a pretty good breakdown of like not just the negative
Speaker 3: aspects of social media, but also the positive aspects. And
Speaker 3: one thing that came out of the study was that
Speaker 3: more marginalized youth tend to see the internet more positively
Speaker 3: and tend to have kind of more positive experiences with
Speaker 3: the internet. So again, if you just google this study,
Speaker 3: you're going to see a lot of headlines that are
Speaker 3: like Surgeon General raises alarm about social media and social
Speaker 3: media driving team mental health crisis, which is a big
Speaker 3: part of the report, but it also said social media
Speaker 3: can provide quote positive community and connection with others who
Speaker 3: share identity, abilities, and interest. They later said that social
Speaker 3: media can provide quote buffering effects against stress, particularly for
Speaker 3: queer and trans youth, youth of color, or just like
Speaker 3: anybody that belongs to a marginalized group. Some stats from
Speaker 3: the report that I thought were particularly interesting. One was
Speaker 3: that seven out of ten adolescent girls of color report
Speaker 3: encountering positive or identity affirming content related to race across
Speaker 3: social media platforms. Fifty eight percent of adolescents interview had
Speaker 3: reported that social media helped them feel more accepted. Sixty
Speaker 3: seven percent said that social media helps them feel like
Speaker 3: they have people who can support them through tough times.
Speaker 3: Seventy one percent said that social media provides them a
Speaker 3: place to show their creative side, and eighty percent felt
Speaker 3: like they were more connected to what's going on in
Speaker 3: their friends' lives. That last stat I think is particularly important.
Speaker 3: The study also pointed out that quote the ability to
Speaker 3: form and maintain friendships online and developed social connections, as
Speaker 3: well as interactions with more diverse peer groups than are
Speaker 3: available offline, Like these are all sort of benefits of
Speaker 3: social media, which, like I don't know if you guys remember,
Speaker 3: but there was this pandemic thing that just happened, and
Speaker 3: a lot of us were very isolated for a long
Speaker 3: period of time. A lot of kids were, and the
Speaker 3: internet and social media that was a way for people
Speaker 3: to bind connection. That was a way for people to
Speaker 3: stay connected with other people and provide an escape for
Speaker 3: a lot of people.
Speaker 2: It definitely helped me. Like that's how I kind of
Speaker 2: stayed sane.
Speaker 3: I was, you know, I was on Twitter a lot,
Speaker 3: I was on TikTok a lot. I was also like
Speaker 3: just facetiming friends and stuff like that. Like that was
Speaker 3: a way for me to like keep up social interaction,
Speaker 3: which is a thing that you know people need anyways.
Speaker 3: So one more point I want to pull from this
Speaker 3: report it said quote an addition, research suggests that social
Speaker 3: media based and other digitally based mental health interventions may
Speaker 3: also be helpful for some children adolescents by promoting help
Speaker 3: seeking behaviors and serving as a gateway to initiating mental
Speaker 3: health care. So that's kind of going back what I
Speaker 3: was saying before, Like this is really important. You can
Speaker 3: argue that, yes, like social media, the Internet, it exposes
Speaker 3: kids to self harm and to addiction and to suicidal idealization,
Speaker 3: but also it provides kids with support. If you google
Speaker 3: anything related to suicide, like one of the main things
Speaker 3: that pops up is the suicide hotline. Like that is
Speaker 3: a resource that is available to people. There are resources
Speaker 3: through the Internet people that are trying to overcome addiction.
Speaker 3: You can find communities online. And also if you've been
Speaker 3: involving this like ongoing right wing attack on queer and
Speaker 3: trance folks in this country, one of their most recent
Speaker 3: targets has been the Trevor Project, which is a suicide
Speaker 3: hotline for LGBTQ Post Kids Suicide Hotline, So it is
Speaker 3: something that saves kids' lives and This has been kind
Speaker 3: of the latest.
Speaker 2: Group that's been roped into this whole like groomer rhetoric
Speaker 2: about LGBTQ plus organizations and people.
Speaker 3: This is a suicide hotline, this is preventing death, and.
Speaker 2: It's just it's so what the I just I can't like.
Speaker 3: It's so twisted, it is so messed up, And I
Speaker 3: think that it is really telling that the same people
Speaker 3: that are trying to shut down the Trevor Project just
Speaker 3: because they acknowledge that queer people exist, I don't know,
Speaker 3: they're the same people sort of promoting this bill and
Speaker 3: promoting a lot of the things like changes that will
Speaker 3: be put in place because of this legislation.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think a big issue with this.
Speaker 3: The bill doesn't discriminate between content that's causing harm and
Speaker 3: that's preventing it.
Speaker 2: It's just sort of a catch all.
Speaker 3: The people again that are going to be determining what
Speaker 3: is or is not appropriate for kids are politicians. Are
Speaker 3: a lot of these same people that are trying to
Speaker 3: again eliminate trans people from public life and their own words.
Speaker 2: So it's scary.
Speaker 3: I'm really worried about what where this is going. And
Speaker 3: on top of that, talking about the Internet and some
Speaker 3: of the again like positives that I see about the
Speaker 3: Internet and social media, because I do feel like I
Speaker 3: got to defend that a little bit. A lot of
Speaker 3: queer and trans kids don't live in accepting households or
Speaker 3: they just don't know other queer people. Again I've talked
Speaker 3: about this before, Like I had a couple of friends
Speaker 3: growing up that were like also coming out around the
Speaker 3: same time, but like, I didn't really know any other
Speaker 3: queer people.
Speaker 2: I didn't know any queer adults.
Speaker 3: And like, if you're a person of color, if you're
Speaker 3: a person who belongs to a marginalized religious group or
Speaker 3: ethnic group, you can kind of be in a similar
Speaker 3: position where maybe you're the only person at your school
Speaker 3: who has that identity and you can't really relate to
Speaker 3: other like you just don't have a community to talk
Speaker 3: about those experiences with that can be really detrimental to
Speaker 3: your mental health. And so one thing I was thinking about,
Speaker 3: So there was this campaign what I was growing up
Speaker 3: that was called it Gets Better, and I'm be real,
Speaker 3: it was really corny, Like I thought it was really dumb.
Speaker 3: That being said, I think it was well intentioned. I think,
Speaker 3: like I'm looking back I'm really glad it was like
Speaker 3: a thing. I'm glad, and again, especially given the situation now,
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, I did not realize that that was
Speaker 3: like really good.
Speaker 2: I do think I missed the mark a little bit.
Speaker 3: Anyways, I think the point of what that whole campaign is,
Speaker 3: that campaign was supposed to be and I think something
Speaker 3: that I think is really important. It's supposed to be
Speaker 3: like showing kids this idea that like, you can have
Speaker 3: a happy queer future. And I think for me, again,
Speaker 3: that whole campaign didn't early work. I was a really
Speaker 3: agsty kid. I think I was just like very like whatever.
Speaker 3: But what I the things that like helped me sort
Speaker 3: of imagine like a happy queer future for myself where
Speaker 3: I would be able to be like my true self
Speaker 3: and be again yeah, just be happy, just be like
Speaker 3: not suffering all the time. Access to the internet was
Speaker 3: access to YouTubers and to Tumblr and to just like
Speaker 3: and a fan fiction.
Speaker 2: Again, like I keep going back, but that was really
Speaker 2: the first time.
Speaker 3: I I read stories about queer people. And again, these
Speaker 3: are all things that are going to be attacked to
Speaker 3: sort of like wiping the existence of queer people from
Speaker 3: the internet.
Speaker 2: All you're gonna do with that is show kids that like,
Speaker 2: you don't have the.
Speaker 3: Future, You don't have a future where you can be
Speaker 3: happy and accepted and be your true self. And that
Speaker 3: is terrifying. That is that is what leads to suicide.
Speaker 3: So anyways, yeah, right wing politicians want us dead.
Speaker 2: What else is new?
Speaker 3: Anyways, let's talk about the Democratic co sponsor of this bill,
Speaker 3: Richard Blumenthal. Oh my god, this guy. Okay, So he
Speaker 3: has been a co sponsor on a lot of similar bills,
Speaker 3: a lot of these bills that have been tracked by
Speaker 3: the Electronic Freedom Foundation and Fight for the Future.
Speaker 2: This has been just looking at kind of his legislative history.
Speaker 3: He also like tried to pass some bills in like
Speaker 3: the late nineties early two thousands about like regulating MySpace,
Speaker 3: and I don't know, this just seems to be his
Speaker 3: whole thing. He is very into like restricting what people
Speaker 3: can see online. Apparently he is also the co sponsor
Speaker 3: of the earn It Act, another bill that Fight for
Speaker 3: the Future is organizing against, which if you look at
Speaker 3: what Congress has online, they summarize the bill as quote,
Speaker 3: this bill revises the federal framework governing the prevention of
Speaker 3: online sexual exploitation of children end quote, which, again, that
Speaker 3: sounds great. I don't think anybody can disagree that like that.
Speaker 3: That's yeah, we shouldn't be having that happen, but that's
Speaker 3: not what the bill actually does. This is again from
Speaker 3: Fight for the Future's website. Bad Internet Bills also will
Speaker 3: also have that in the description. They have a lot
Speaker 3: of information about not just KOSO, but like all of
Speaker 3: these bills that earn earn It Act and other bills
Speaker 3: that are happening right now. But yeah, so from their
Speaker 3: web site, this bill quote threatens to undermine online encryption
Speaker 3: by punishing companies that provide encryption services. Again, I'm not
Speaker 3: a very tachy person. I don't know exactly how end
Speaker 3: to end encryption works, but basically, it is what keeps
Speaker 3: online messaging private. It is what prevents Again, we don't
Speaker 3: really have good data privacy laws in this country, but
Speaker 3: it is like the one thing that prevents hackers from
Speaker 3: accessing your personal information.
Speaker 2: We all use it, even if you don't think you
Speaker 2: do like you use it.
Speaker 3: And again this is the same guy who's arguing that
Speaker 3: KOSA will protect data privacy, and they've used some of
Speaker 3: the language from the arn IT Act. They put some
Speaker 3: of this into KOSA. Both of these bills are going
Speaker 3: to destroy what little data privacy we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So. Also from Fight for the Future, in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 3: a bipartisan congressional commission concluded that quote encryption is an
Speaker 3: exorbally tied to our national interest. Senator Ron Wyden has
Speaker 3: pointed out that quote, you can't only build a backdoor
Speaker 3: for the good guys. Once you weaken in encryption with
Speaker 3: a backdoor, you make it far easier for criminals and
Speaker 3: hackers and predators to get into.
Speaker 2: Your digital life.
Speaker 3: So, like back in twenty sixteen, we had congress people
Speaker 3: being like, we need encryption.
Speaker 2: This isn't like we shouldn't end encryption.
Speaker 3: This is literally the one thing that is preventing hackers
Speaker 3: from getting into your stuff.
Speaker 2: This bill also allows for like a heightened surveillance state.
Speaker 2: Also from the.
Speaker 3: Fight for the Future website, quote, Beyond the systemics surveillance
Speaker 3: issues we face, individual police officers routinely misuse their access
Speaker 3: to confidential databases to get information on neighbors, romantic partners,
Speaker 3: and business rivals. We know the giving law enforcement and
Speaker 3: intelligence officials access to our communication results in them taking
Speaker 3: advantage of that access in the ways that hurt us,
Speaker 3: often with absolutely no benefits to the public good. Why
Speaker 3: should we trust them to with even greater access to
Speaker 3: our private conversations?
Speaker 2: Simply put, we shouldn't.
Speaker 3: So. Yeah, like, remember how like ten years ago we
Speaker 3: had this whole like like the snowed in leaks happen
Speaker 3: and we were like, oh my god, the government spent
Speaker 3: like recording all these phone calls and stuff, and it
Speaker 3: hasn't even really done anything to like prevent terrorism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole conversation.
Speaker 3: I thought we universally like decided massurveillance is a bad thing.
Speaker 3: But again, now we're apparently doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So in an article about this bill, the Electronic Freedom
Speaker 3: Foundation states that quote in the name of fighting crime,
Speaker 3: the earn It Act creates all Internet users like we
Speaker 3: should be in a permanent criminal lineup under suspicion for
Speaker 3: child abuse. If enacted, earn It will put massive legal
Speaker 3: pressure on Internet companies both large and small, to stop
Speaker 3: using true end to end encryption and instead scan all
Speaker 3: user messages, photos, and files. And like I said before,
Speaker 3: we all use end to end encryption if we use
Speaker 3: it for so many things. The Electronic Freedom Foundation points
Speaker 3: out that this bill could be used to target people
Speaker 3: who seek reproductive healthcare, since that's something that's been under attack.
Speaker 3: Also could be used to target trans folks. We're already
Speaker 3: seeing some state governments that are going out of their
Speaker 3: way to target and harassed trans folks. Last year, Texas
Speaker 3: Attorney General Ken Paxton attempted to use government resources to
Speaker 3: compile a list of trans adults who changed their legal
Speaker 3: gender marker on their ID. That is creepy, Like he
Speaker 3: wanted a list of everybody that changed their gender marker
Speaker 3: on their ID. There's no way that ends well, Like
Speaker 3: I just it's it's weird. And again, like even if
Speaker 3: if you're somebody, if you're in a position where like
Speaker 3: I'm never going to deal with this, I am a
Speaker 3: sis white man, I have whatever the most privileged ever,
Speaker 3: why would you want less data privacy? Like?
Speaker 2: Why again?
Speaker 3: And these are things like we use we use an
Speaker 3: encryption for healthcare, we use it for finances. Why would
Speaker 3: you want to make it easier for people to hack
Speaker 3: into your health care information, your health information or your
Speaker 3: your again your finances like.
Speaker 2: That that doesn't seem good.
Speaker 3: A number of senators have spoken up against this bill,
Speaker 3: including Senator Corey Booker and John Ossoff and one hundred
Speaker 3: and thirty two LGBTQ plus human rights organizations have signed
Speaker 3: on to a letter opposing this bill. Also, just a
Speaker 3: quick note brought up this bill and relation to Senator Bloomenthal,
Speaker 3: who is the Democratic co sponsor of this bill. The
Speaker 3: Republican co sponsor is Lindsay Graham. Ted Cruz is another
Speaker 3: co sponsor.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't think those are people that have my best
Speaker 3: interest in mind. That's just my thoughts on that anyways.
Speaker 3: So again, KOs isn't the only bill that is attacking
Speaker 3: internet freedom or data privacy.
Speaker 2: Senator Bluenthal apparently thinks.
Speaker 3: He's like an LGBTQ plus ally and has like spoken
Speaker 3: up in the past about LGBT issues. If you want
Speaker 3: to give me a call and explain to me why
Speaker 3: you think like you can call yourself an ally and
Speaker 3: lay the charge for both of these bills, Like, explain
Speaker 3: that to me, because I'm confused. And yeah, again, because
Speaker 3: Congress is weird. There's also two nearly identical bills that
Speaker 3: Blumenthala is sponsoring that are called One is called Stop
Speaker 3: See Sam and the others called the Cooper Davis Act,
Speaker 3: and they both are essentially the same thing where they're like,
Speaker 3: we're gonna stop sexual abuse and child abuse by just
Speaker 3: monitoring everything on the internet. And let I guess, look
Speaker 3: at anything on the internet. Go to bad Internet Bills
Speaker 3: dot com if you want to learn more about this.
Speaker 3: They have some really great information. But yeah, this is scary.
Speaker 3: All of this is scary, fun stuff.
Speaker 1: Clearly you've laid out why it's scary, but it's also
Speaker 1: scary that I hadn't heard of it before.
Speaker 3: Then, Oh yeah, I think that's that's the other part is,
Speaker 3: like I there's been very minimal coverage. Again, it is
Speaker 3: both of these are bipartisan bills that are going through.
Speaker 3: There has been you can't just point to it to
Speaker 3: a right wing or a lefting issue. There's been a
Speaker 3: lot of propaganda like kind of trying to portray this
Speaker 3: bill a certain way. Again, really big shout out to
Speaker 3: all of these activists on TikTok that are talking about this.
Speaker 2: I think they've done a really great job of, like especially.
Speaker 3: Educating younger folks. Sarah Phillips, who I mentioned at the top,
Speaker 3: she wrote a really awesome piece for teen Vogue about
Speaker 3: this bill and kind of laying out also talking about
Speaker 3: the AO three crash and laying out sort of a
Speaker 3: lot of things that are going to be affected by
Speaker 3: this bill.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it is. It is scary. Again, it's terrifying.
Speaker 3: This is going to have if this passes it, it's
Speaker 3: going to have a terrible impact on our data privacy,
Speaker 3: on internet freedom, on freedom of speech. Where it's again,
Speaker 3: this is one of those things where it's like it's
Speaker 3: clearly a freedom of speech issue, and none of the
Speaker 3: supposed freedom of speech whatever purists seem to be speaking
Speaker 3: out about this.
Speaker 2: So that's a whole other discussion. But yeah, again I
Speaker 2: think this is really important to talk about. Now. This
Speaker 2: is the second attempt they did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they tried this back and I believe twenty sixteen
Speaker 3: where that quote was from.
Speaker 2: But they're trying to rush this theory right now.
Speaker 3: I believe they're supposed to vote on it in September.
Speaker 3: I might be wrong about that anyway. It's that being said, though,
Speaker 3: it is this is an urgent issue. This is something
Speaker 3: that I think especially again I think it is it
Speaker 3: is no coincidence that this is happening tangentially to all
Speaker 3: of these anti trans anti queer legislation that's happening, especially
Speaker 3: those that are targeting trans kids. And again I've talked
Speaker 3: about the social contagion, conspiracy theory, lie, whatever the hell
Speaker 3: you want to call it. These are the same things
Speaker 3: that are fueling this legislation. And it's terrifying that this
Speaker 3: could be a this could be a national this could
Speaker 3: be a national law.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: And also just to add Senator Blumenthal, who is the
Speaker 3: co sponsor of this bill and of the burn It Act,
Speaker 3: he's also a co sponsor of this restrict Act, which
Speaker 3: is the bill that is, if you read the actual bill,
Speaker 3: what it says is it authorizes the Secretary of Commerce
Speaker 3: to review and prohibit certain transactions between persons and the
Speaker 3: United States and foreign adversaries and for other purposes. This
Speaker 3: was this is being promoted and response to TikTok, which
Speaker 3: there have been some Again that's a whole other complicated conversation,
Speaker 3: but it's the myths that are going around is like
Speaker 3: TikTok's gonna be a used to spy on the US
Speaker 3: from the Chinese government, and I don't know. Again, there's
Speaker 3: so much unpacked there. There's so much wrong with that claim.
Speaker 3: It also is very strange that we are like, you know,
Speaker 3: we have Facebook, and we have all these other corporations
Speaker 3: that are tracking our data and have no problems like
Speaker 3: sharing it with the US government. Probably have no problems
Speaker 3: like sharing it with foreign governments too, So it.
Speaker 2: Is weird that. And again, I the reason they're going.
Speaker 3: After TikTok is because TikTok has become a new platform
Speaker 3: for young people to organize on. Trump was really against TikTok,
Speaker 3: and like that makes sense because remember he had that
Speaker 3: one rally where like there was supposed to be like
Speaker 3: a like a there's like a huge crowd that was
Speaker 3: supposed to be there, and that was like really tiny
Speaker 3: because a bunch of people on TikTok like started basically
Speaker 3: explain like here's how to get tickets, and.
Speaker 2: Like, like I think it literally.
Speaker 3: Is just all these these politicians that are like mad
Speaker 3: that people are organizing against them and are trying to
Speaker 3: restrict the platforms that people are using to organize. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and this is a conversation again, Like there definitely is
Speaker 3: a conversation to be had about Internet safety, and there
Speaker 3: definitely is a conversation to be had about how kids
Speaker 3: are interacting with the Internet. And how the Internet affects us.
Speaker 3: But this is something this whole idea of like we
Speaker 3: don't understand it, so we just have to like we
Speaker 3: just have to block it. We just have to like
Speaker 3: get rid of it. This is something that happens every
Speaker 3: time there's a new piece of technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was a kid, it was video games,
Speaker 2: like it and.
Speaker 3: Like before I get again, like it's been used for
Speaker 3: certain types of music. It's been used for my favorite
Speaker 3: thing to point to. In the nineteen fifties, there was
Speaker 3: a whole congressional trial about comic books and about how
Speaker 3: comic books are like destroying the youth of America. Look
Speaker 3: up a like nineteen fifties comic book panel. They're corny
Speaker 3: as hell. Like it's so like there it's again. This
Speaker 3: is it's the same conversation over and over again. I
Speaker 3: think in twenty years this conversation is going to look
Speaker 3: equally as ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I hope it does.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's again and also my issue again when
Speaker 3: we when we have these conversations about the Internet, I
Speaker 3: think a big problem is very quickly a lot of
Speaker 3: times it gets sort of split into either the Internet's
Speaker 3: good or the Internet's bad. Social media is good or
Speaker 3: or social media is bad, and both are complicated.
Speaker 2: It is a very complicated situation.
Speaker 3: And regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's the
Speaker 3: thing that exists, Like we're not. You can't put that
Speaker 3: back in the box. Like it's out there. The Internet exists.
Speaker 3: We interact with the Internet every day of our lives.
Speaker 3: If you want to participate in everyday life, you need
Speaker 3: to know how the Internet works. And I think, again,
Speaker 3: it is complicated. I do think there needs to be
Speaker 3: like some sort of conversation about this. But I think
Speaker 3: one of the positives of being a kid and growing
Speaker 3: up with the internet, growing up with internet access is
Speaker 3: that you learn internet safety at a much younger age
Speaker 3: and you learn kind of how to interact with the
Speaker 3: Internet from.
Speaker 2: A much younger age.
Speaker 3: And I think again, like, you know, we joke about
Speaker 3: how like older people not being tech savvy and younger
Speaker 3: people kind of having a more of an idea of
Speaker 3: how these platforms work, but like the reason is because like, yeah,
Speaker 3: people my age, we all grew up with this, We
Speaker 3: all grew up learning this, learned how to be you know,
Speaker 3: citizens on the internet, whatever that means. And just taking
Speaker 3: that away and just saying like, no, kids shouldn't be
Speaker 3: able to interact with this, kids shouldn't understand the realities
Speaker 3: of how the internet works and how it affects us.
Speaker 3: Like that, doesn't that just it's gonna you're just putting
Speaker 3: off the problem. You're just putting it off till they're older. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's weird. It's it's not gonna end well, and
Speaker 3: it's we living a really cool time. It's a lot
Speaker 3: of weird stuff's happening right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the folks talking about AI, I tell you, talking
Speaker 2: about AI apparently about this too, is like.
Speaker 3: What I brought up that quote like gen Z activist
Speaker 3: group that's behind supposedly supporting COOSA. One of the things
Speaker 3: they've been really like advocating like regulating AI, which I
Speaker 3: think is a totally like, yeah, that's a whole.
Speaker 2: Different issue first of all, And yes, we do need
Speaker 2: to be regularly in the AI.
Speaker 3: We do need to be having some conversations about AI.
Speaker 3: That's not the same thing as social media and just
Speaker 3: like the ability to find things on the internet. These
Speaker 3: are all again, like I said before, ageism is bad,
Speaker 3: but I think.
Speaker 2: It is a little like these are people that are.
Speaker 3: In their seventies that are that are trying to explain
Speaker 3: the internet to us. They're trying to explain how the
Speaker 3: internet works, like this isn't I don't know, there's so
Speaker 3: many I just yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: That's too, That's what they told me. There is a
Speaker 2: bike that is a real quote. That's a real quote
Speaker 2: from a politician. Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah. I mean, thank you for breaking this down.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're seeing all of these book bands,
Speaker 1: we're seeing all of this attempts at censorship, and a
Speaker 1: lot of times people don't equate what's going on online
Speaker 1: with quote life, but it is. We do interact with
Speaker 1: it every day. I lost it for a little bit
Speaker 1: recently and I was like, well, what do I do?
Speaker 2: I don't how do I function? Like it's a part
Speaker 2: of where everyday lives.
Speaker 1: And they're just using all of these fake like we've
Speaker 1: talked before about how often they use sex trafficking and
Speaker 1: the safety of children and all these things that sound
Speaker 1: really good, but they're just using it to distract you
Speaker 1: from the real thing and like those issues, distracting from
Speaker 1: those issues like yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, It's it's really
Speaker 1: scary because the Internet. We've also talked before about Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're perfectly happy to for American companies to make money,
Speaker 1: but so many places that people frequent that you were discussing,
Speaker 1: where you might find like a community around your marginalized identity,
Speaker 1: are free and that's important. But they probably that's like
Speaker 1: the first thing they're gonna get rid of. Like the
Speaker 1: companies that can like get your data right now, nothing's
Speaker 1: gonna happen to them. But like those kind of free
Speaker 1: spaces where people can find community that they maybe couldn't,
Speaker 1: that's that's gonna go first, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think also we're watching this happen.
Speaker 3: While like Twitter's kind of fallen apart, and I think
Speaker 3: that's been a great like that's been a great example
Speaker 3: of how like Twitter for a while.
Speaker 2: Again, it wasn't perfect.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of issues with Twitter, but it
Speaker 3: was a place that a lot of activist movements like
Speaker 3: kind of gained popular. That's where like the Black Lives
Speaker 3: Matter movement and me Too, like really gained momentum.
Speaker 2: It was like a networking platform for a lot of people. Again,
Speaker 2: like I'm a I'm a journalist. I used Twitter a lot.
Speaker 3: To connect with people and to connect with sources or
Speaker 3: just connect with other people with like similar identities. I
Speaker 3: met a lot of other I have a lot of
Speaker 3: friends that I met through the internet just because we again,
Speaker 3: like we were both we're both like trends or we're
Speaker 3: both interested in the same like nerdy fandom.
Speaker 2: Stuff like it's it's it's.
Speaker 3: Been a really I again, I think I think the
Speaker 3: whole is the internet good or bad thing? Isn't a
Speaker 3: productive conversation because again, it exists. But it's like, but
Speaker 3: there are a lot of benefits. And I think, again
Speaker 3: going back to that report that the supporters of those
Speaker 3: bill keep pointing to about the mental health effects and
Speaker 3: social media, they're really ignoring the fact that this report
Speaker 3: also is like no, like this can be really great
Speaker 3: for kids with marginalized identities. There are a lot of
Speaker 3: positives to this. It's yeah, it's it's much more complicated.
Speaker 3: It's and if we want to talk about mental health too,
Speaker 3: like we have, like the healthcare situation in this country
Speaker 3: is a mess. We don't want to like why aren't
Speaker 3: we talking about that? You know what, it would be
Speaker 3: a great like thing to help out mental health in
Speaker 3: this country. It would be to like strengthening our actual
Speaker 3: like healthcare system and the ability of people to access
Speaker 3: healthcare because so many people like don't have health insurance
Speaker 3: or and that and in itself self causes more, you know,
Speaker 3: the harm to your mental health. Financial insecurity causes harm
Speaker 3: to your mental health. The fact that we live in
Speaker 3: a planet that is burning. Definitely, that's that's only a
Speaker 3: big thing. I don't know again, like as aliens, apparently, I.
Speaker 2: Think that's fun you know, I do think it was
Speaker 2: a little funny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the people always want to talk about
Speaker 3: how like gen Z has terrible mental health, we're on
Speaker 3: a planet that's dying.
Speaker 2: Like, it's it, it makes sense.
Speaker 3: What would I don't know, it's this whole thing is
Speaker 3: so yeah, I've said my piece.
Speaker 2: It's it's messed up. It is. It is.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you Joey for coming on and bringing
Speaker 1: this to us and breaking it down, for providing sources,
Speaker 1: because there are if you look this up, there are
Speaker 1: some things you can do, like contacting your senators all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, if you want to do something
Speaker 1: about this very scary thing that's happening. But yeah, Joey,
Speaker 1: where can the people.
Speaker 2: Find you online? If they want to for now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: while we still the internet.
Speaker 3: You can find me at pat pat T not n
Speaker 3: ot prat pr a t T. That is my Twitter
Speaker 3: and my Instagram if you're interested in this topic and
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about the Internet and all
Speaker 3: the various issues that the internet and technology should check out.
Speaker 3: There are no girls on the Internet, which with Bridget Todd,
Speaker 3: I work on that show as well as well as
Speaker 3: a couple of other Avenue one coming out I'll probably
Speaker 3: be talking.
Speaker 2: About next time I'm on here, but as of right now.
Speaker 3: I don't have any updates, but yeah, yeah, find me
Speaker 3: on Twitter and Instagram. I'm not on Twitter very much
Speaker 3: anymore because like who is but you know I'm holding
Speaker 3: I'm holding.
Speaker 2: On till.
Speaker 3: Hold. Yes.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, well more excuse for you to come back
Speaker 1: and you can talk about course your upcoming show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime being on the show so fun. We love
Speaker 2: having you. So that's so glad. Well, listeners.
Speaker 1: If you would like to find us on the Internet,
Speaker 1: you can email us Stephanie mol Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,
Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. I never told
Speaker 1: you we have a tea public store with merchandise. We
Speaker 1: have a book you can preorder. It is that step
Speaker 1: you should read books dot com. We have an audiobook.
Speaker 1: I have a physical form of the book. Thanks as
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya
Speaker 1: and Joey who is here, and thanks to you for listening. Stephanderfertilds,
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.