Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hey, Dream listeners, if you like this podcast, you're gonna
Speaker 2: love the book. Yeah. I wrote a book. It's called
Speaker 2: Selling the Dream, and it's coming out March twelfth, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four, on Atria. It's about all of your favorite
Speaker 2: characters from MLMs and some that you've never even heard of.
Speaker 2: I hope check it out. Previously on the Dream, I got.
Speaker 3: To the level where you were in the Mercedes and
Speaker 3: then very quickly was sucked through the pipeline of an
Speaker 3: MLM coaching cult. Obviously, the love bombing began right away.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you're in social work. Oh you have
Speaker 3: two kids. I have two kids too. You're so much fun,
Speaker 3: You're a great speaker, you love to help people. All
Speaker 3: these little things that really felt good.
Speaker 2: So maybe you're wondering what's been going on with me
Speaker 2: and my coach Jesse, not Jesse Lee Ward, the other Jesse,
Speaker 2: and I'm here to say it's going boringly, which is great.
Speaker 2: She came into the studio when we first got started,
Speaker 2: and she basically interviewed me about all my problems, everything
Speaker 2: I wanted to change, or at the very least complain
Speaker 2: about how's.
Speaker 4: Your sleep bad.
Speaker 2: It's really bad, great start. I'll spare you the talk
Speaker 2: about my bowel movements and all that jazz. But Jesse
Speaker 2: comes at this from both a wellness angle and a
Speaker 2: spiritual angle, and she finds connections between the two all
Speaker 2: over the place.
Speaker 4: No pain or stiffness when you're waking up in the morning.
Speaker 2: I have pain at night in my back, in my
Speaker 2: lower back.
Speaker 4: That's because you're having problems with you, dude. Okay, okay,
Speaker 4: that's all all right. Sorry, good to know. Please, if
Speaker 4: you're listening, don't quote me on that. It's just the
Speaker 4: metaphysical stuff, you know. I mean, you already told me
Speaker 4: you're not very spiritual and stuff like that, but you
Speaker 4: don't do any spiritual practices go to church. But you
Speaker 4: are eager to find some higher power. Yeah, okay, I am.
Speaker 2: I'm eager to like not have existential dread that goes
Speaker 2: unanswered all the time, you know. So either get rid
Speaker 2: of my panic about like floating around in space all
Speaker 2: by myself for all of eternity, or you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I just don't want.
Speaker 4: To think to reincarnate, dude. Yes, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't need to I don't need to know. I
Speaker 2: just needed to not sound terrible and I need to
Speaker 2: kind of feel a little more.
Speaker 4: Purpose. There we go, and that's the thing. You need
Speaker 4: to eat a little bit better, you need I mean
Speaker 4: all of this kind of things, like you have no idea.
Speaker 4: Once you start changing a little bit of the way
Speaker 4: you eat, and just little by little things are going
Speaker 4: to start changing. Okay, You'll feel good about coming to work,
Speaker 4: you feel good about leaving your house because what you're
Speaker 4: doing has purpose. And let me just tell you that
Speaker 4: what you do and the people that you are touching,
Speaker 4: it's godly. You have no idea. What you're doing is
Speaker 4: so beautiful and you just have to believe it. And
Speaker 4: that's what I'm here for. I want to tell you
Speaker 4: that you're beautiful. I want to tell you that you're
Speaker 4: full of love. That you will find perpose be paying you.
Speaker 4: It doesn't I know, but still, I mean that's worth
Speaker 4: because I'm working. But we won't be together for a
Speaker 4: long time because everything has a kind of expiration. This
Speaker 4: is what my thing is. Okay, I'm going to teach
Speaker 4: you everything and then I'm going to leave you alone
Speaker 4: and I'm going to check in on you and be
Speaker 4: like are you doing this? And are you doing that?
Speaker 4: Maybe now we need to see each other instead of
Speaker 4: three times a week or two times a week, that
Speaker 4: we're going to start seeing each other. Then we're going
Speaker 4: to say I'm going to take a break. And this
Speaker 4: usually takes I'm going to be completely honest. Nothing is
Speaker 4: going to change overnight. I like to give three months
Speaker 4: to six months, one year, eighteen months, okay, Like this
Speaker 4: is how long I think this can take after we
Speaker 4: do all of the above. Okay, let's just let's stick
Speaker 4: to Let's stick for a year. I mean, we don't
Speaker 4: have to write a contract. If things don't work out,
Speaker 4: they don't work out. Let's stick to a year. And
Speaker 4: after that year, I'm going to check in on you
Speaker 4: once every two weeks, okay, and we can just go
Speaker 4: for a hike and talk. If you're not working out,
Speaker 4: If you're not this, guess what I am going to
Speaker 4: come back to you because you do need me. My goal.
Speaker 4: This is what I want.
Speaker 2: I wanted somebody to like hold like, yeah, of course
Speaker 2: my goal.
Speaker 4: I'm going to work out with you. I'm going to
Speaker 4: cry with you. Is it you only going to sit
Speaker 4: in church instead? Like, I mean, come on, Like, what
Speaker 4: do you want to do because everyone is different. Maybe
Speaker 4: you just need to stretch today. You need to be
Speaker 4: physically moving. You need to eat foods that are real foods,
Speaker 4: good energy. That's what you need. You have more purpose
Speaker 4: than just being this wonderful mother and this girlfriend and
Speaker 4: a friend. You owe it to yourself, babe. You owe
Speaker 4: it to yourself to understand how special you are.
Speaker 2: You have so much truth for me to listen too.
Speaker 4: It's not hard. You're just hearing it and you know
Speaker 4: it's true. You know it's true, and you're You're just
Speaker 4: someone that your body is telling you, like yo, get
Speaker 4: it together. Come on, and I'm going to send a
Speaker 4: woman to you that is just going to make you
Speaker 4: just in an easy way, just by showing you love
Speaker 4: and being your friend, and we're going to have a
Speaker 4: great friendship after. Okay, I just want you to know
Speaker 4: I'm excited. I am too, Honestly, honestly, I'm.
Speaker 2: Very do I sound like too much of a massmar Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: sound like me. So we decided we'd meet up twice
Speaker 2: a week but text whenever we felt like it, which
Speaker 2: is a lot. And so far it's going great. Now
Speaker 2: let's check back in on another very different coaching experience.
Speaker 2: Last we heard from Jennifer, she was getting coached by
Speaker 2: this guy called Ray Higden. At first, she was just
Speaker 2: spending twenty dollars a month to watch his videos read
Speaker 2: some business pointers. But then she was asked to join
Speaker 2: his inner circle and get more direct coaching, and that
Speaker 2: would cost her five thousand dollars. But Jennifer thought it
Speaker 2: had to be worth it. Otherwise why would this guy
Speaker 2: even be in business? So she paid five thousand dollars
Speaker 2: to be the most coached you could be in the organization.
Speaker 2: And then they asked her one more thing, did she
Speaker 2: want to become a coach herself, you know, join them
Speaker 2: at the top.
Speaker 3: I say yes to becoming a coach for Ray Higden's
Speaker 3: one hundred k inner circle because I think deep down,
Speaker 3: every single person in multi level marketing on some level
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if you're at the top or the bottom
Speaker 3: of the bottom. You know that it's unsustainable. I mean
Speaker 3: unless you like got in in nineteen ninety two, like
Speaker 3: your number one or number two, and also like the
Speaker 3: company can go under it any time. It's not actually
Speaker 3: your own business. And you see that, but like you're
Speaker 3: not willing to see it. But I think on some level,
Speaker 3: deep down, you know that. So I said yes to coaching,
Speaker 3: thinking this is going to be more sustainable, like long term.
Speaker 3: Initially I thought that it would just be alongside of
Speaker 3: Arbond also your coach. Like the average millionaire has seven
Speaker 3: streams of income, so if nothing else, this just felt
Speaker 3: like another income stream that would be coming in.
Speaker 4: So I'd have my.
Speaker 3: Arbonn business, which could fluctuate, but I'd have this coaching business.
Speaker 3: And even though it was it began as twenty two
Speaker 3: dollars a session, which was nothing compared to what he
Speaker 3: was making off of it, it felt like, well maybe,
Speaker 3: I think in the back of my mind, I thought
Speaker 3: maybe one day I could be a coach like him.
Speaker 3: Because what happens is then the goal instead of just
Speaker 3: getting to the top of your pyramid. You see all
Speaker 3: these people at the tops of the pyramids then become coaches,
Speaker 3: life coaches, business coaches, relationship coaches. Because they have all
Speaker 3: this power and influence. Why not exploit, like make exploit
Speaker 3: my followers and my downline and make even more money
Speaker 3: by selling them courses and books and coaching sessions, so
Speaker 3: that slowly you become indoctrinated, especially as you move up
Speaker 3: the ranks to want that too, Like your wants and
Speaker 3: dreams aren't even your own. Really, Like you're you're like
Speaker 3: made to think this is what you should want. You
Speaker 3: should want to be rich. Why wouldn't you want to
Speaker 3: be rich? Why wouldn't you want to live in a
Speaker 3: seven million dollar home like Rey he lives in a
Speaker 3: seven million dollar home, Like he bought a boat during
Speaker 3: the Panda This is exactly the mindset that you begin
Speaker 3: to believe you need to have. And it's a mindset
Speaker 3: of privilege and of self righteousness that if I just
Speaker 3: believe I'm better than everybody else, so shall I be
Speaker 3: bestowed all the wealth and knowledge of the world. And
Speaker 3: that's not I was a social worker for Christ's sake.
Speaker 5: Like.
Speaker 3: That's not ever something that I aspire to be, Like
Speaker 3: I just wanted to help people. But as a coach,
Speaker 3: you're like, I am helping people, I'm just helping them
Speaker 3: in a different way. And what's wrong with wanting to
Speaker 3: live comfortably? Because there isn't anything wrong with that, like inherently,
Speaker 3: until you become so obsessed, like you begin to believe
Speaker 3: that money makes you a good person.
Speaker 2: But you are living like this is a lovely house.
Speaker 2: It's like three times the size of my house. You
Speaker 2: have an entire corner a lot, you live near lakes
Speaker 2: and other things. Mushrooms that I want to tell the
Speaker 2: audience about, like really cool wild mushrooms.
Speaker 3: And I have like a beautiful marriage, and I have
Speaker 3: beautiful children, healthy children, and but but not even that.
Speaker 3: It's like I have, I have a family, I live like,
Speaker 3: I have support, I have like but it's it's all
Speaker 3: like a mind fuck of like because if you begin
Speaker 3: to believe that money makes somebody a good person. Every
Speaker 3: time Ray says, oh, my house was seven million dollars,
Speaker 3: Oh I spent this much on a coach his you
Speaker 3: believe he's a good person and he would never scam you,
Speaker 3: he would never lie to you.
Speaker 4: And so it.
Speaker 3: Becomes easier to invest in his programs in his books
Speaker 3: because look at what good he is doing. You begin
Speaker 3: to believe that, like if Ray said, we gave this
Speaker 3: money to this charity, I started to give to it.
Speaker 3: Like for example, at one of his events, he heavily
Speaker 3: promoted Operation Underground Railroad, and I gave like five hundred
Speaker 3: dollars to that at one of his events because because
Speaker 3: I just thought Ray is promoting this. It's where it
Speaker 3: gets to this point where you're not you know, you're
Speaker 3: not thinking for yourself. If it's like Monkey, see Monkey
Speaker 3: do he does it? I want to be successful like him,
Speaker 3: So I'm going to do it too. Say you became
Speaker 3: Ray Hagden, what did you want your life to look like?
Speaker 3: If I'm being honest, it was like, I need to
Speaker 3: live in a mansion, I need to drive a fancy car.
Speaker 3: I need to take exotic vacations and brag about it all,
Speaker 3: just like Ray does. I mean I never said those
Speaker 3: exact words to myself, but like looking back at like
Speaker 3: when I envisioned myself driving a Mercedes, it was more
Speaker 3: for like the Mercedes part of it, not I want
Speaker 3: a reliable car as much as like I convinced myself
Speaker 3: because like your morality, you're in a constant battle with
Speaker 3: your own morality. So you convince yourself that I want
Speaker 3: to drive this Mercedes because it's a reliable car and
Speaker 3: it's an SUV and I need a bigger car because
Speaker 3: I have three kids. As much as you try to
Speaker 3: remain practical, you're just soft that you're like, no, this
Speaker 3: is about the Mercedes, and I deserve it. It's a
Speaker 3: sense of entitlement to more in your life, and why
Speaker 3: shouldn't you deserve that? So I become this coach and
Speaker 3: people pay five thousand dollars to join Inner Circle. I'm
Speaker 3: getting paid twenty two dollars a session to have a
Speaker 3: half an hour to an hour phone call with these people.
Speaker 4: And what it was.
Speaker 3: Is like, tell me your goal, which they already know
Speaker 3: their goals. What now they're just telling them to me. Okay,
Speaker 3: so when do you want to make this amount of
Speaker 3: money by or when do you want to recruit this
Speaker 3: many people by the end.
Speaker 2: Of the year.
Speaker 3: So then it's like, okay, well, if you're doing this
Speaker 3: by the end of the year, it's like this strategy
Speaker 3: that isn't really a strategy because it depends on your
Speaker 3: ability to manipulate people how like probably attractive, funny, smart,
Speaker 3: like who do you know? Like, but because you feel
Speaker 3: like you've cracked the code on this business, you like
Speaker 3: I have knowledge, like I've figured it out. I am
Speaker 3: worthy of teaching other people how to do the same thing.
Speaker 3: There's also no regulation in the coaching industry. You see
Speaker 3: these coaches selling today only it's one and eleven dollars
Speaker 3: regularly valued at five nine and ninety seven dollars. I've
Speaker 3: literally seen coaches on on Instagram be on vacation in
Speaker 3: their feed, doing a Facebook live saying, we are planning
Speaker 3: on staying here another week, So for today only, I'm
Speaker 3: offering my coaching services for nine to ninety seven. Like
Speaker 3: when you really think about that, they need to pay
Speaker 3: for their family vacation to stay another week, and they
Speaker 3: are just trying to sell you more coaching packages.
Speaker 2: But Jennifer wasn't yet allowed to set her own prices.
Speaker 2: She spent about a year making that twenty two dollars
Speaker 2: an hour as a coach in training, along with going
Speaker 2: to conferences and even getting up on stage with Ray
Speaker 2: Jennifer take it away.
Speaker 6: Hello, all right, I want to share with you the
Speaker 6: power of affirmations and how you can use them to
Speaker 6: overcome your fear of success in leadership. If that's you,
Speaker 6: I can relate, and I'm going to give you a
Speaker 6: tip that'll help you think differently about it. It's not
Speaker 6: that you have a fear of success, it's that you
Speaker 6: have a fear.
Speaker 4: Of struggling, and.
Speaker 7: You've equated success to having to struggle.
Speaker 6: And if you think that success means struggle, then of
Speaker 6: course you would have resistance to it.
Speaker 2: But like she said, she was having this fight with
Speaker 2: herself the whole time. Was she a good guy or
Speaker 2: a bad guy? Was she actually helping people? Was this
Speaker 2: the right thing for her and her family.
Speaker 3: I was pouring everything into Inner Circle coaching and my clients,
Speaker 3: and I actually started to grind my teeth like really
Speaker 3: badly from like stress and anxiety. And I went to
Speaker 3: the dentist and they were like, you need to have
Speaker 3: dental surgery. Like your grinding of your teeth is like
Speaker 3: pushing this for it. I like was starting to get
Speaker 3: a gap in my teeth that I didn't have before.
Speaker 4: It's very cute, thank you. But they they.
Speaker 3: Suggested that I get this gum surgery in the back
Speaker 3: because it was like tearing from grind. I don't know,
Speaker 3: well it was due to stress, and so I took
Speaker 3: that time off. So then I have this dental surgery.
Speaker 3: I schedule it in December. I arrange ahead of time.
Speaker 3: I move all of my coaching clients and calls because
Speaker 3: I am now up to like forty clients at this point,
Speaker 3: Like I'm I had coaching calls like every day, and
Speaker 3: so I did. I worked overtime. I got all of
Speaker 3: them out of the way just so I could have
Speaker 3: this dental surgery. And I'm in pain. I can't speak.
Speaker 3: I'm hopped up on like I have pain medication, antibiotics.
Speaker 3: And I get a call from like our boss who's
Speaker 3: not Ray but and he's like, hey, you know, hey, Jennifer,
Speaker 3: what are you doing because we have this difficult client.
Speaker 3: And I was so good at my job, like I
Speaker 3: was good at speaking with difficult people because of my
Speaker 3: social work background and having crucial conversations with people and
Speaker 3: dealing with sensitive subjects and like just all of these
Speaker 3: things and that was used, like it was exploited to
Speaker 3: their benefit, like right. So he calls me and he says,
Speaker 3: we have this difficult client that wants to quit her coaching.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I can barely talk. I just had surgery,
Speaker 3: Like didn't you see I took the days off. And
Speaker 3: he was like, well, if you can save this client,
Speaker 3: meaning like get her to not quit and have them
Speaker 3: not refund her money, then we'll throw in a bonus
Speaker 3: for you. And I remember the look on Derek, my
Speaker 3: husband's face. He's like like, are you really going to
Speaker 3: say yes to this, and I'm like, yeah, he goes,
Speaker 3: you don't even have to talk. Don't worry about it,
Speaker 3: you don't even have to talk. Just listen to her.
Speaker 3: She just really needs someone to listen to. I don't
Speaker 3: know why somebody else couldn't have done it, but I do. Yeah,
Speaker 3: well why why just because they wanted to test you.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you're at your weakest moment.
Speaker 3: It's true, probably was a test in loyalty or something.
Speaker 2: Let's see how committed you are in your lowest point.
Speaker 3: You're so right, And they probably knew I was questioning things.
Speaker 3: They probably could tell because I had backed away because
Speaker 3: I had been like this gung ho, like all in person,
Speaker 3: I've never thought about that before. So I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: put her on the phone. I'll talk to her. And
Speaker 3: I did for almost two hours. I could barely talk,
Speaker 3: and I told her like I could barely talk, and
Speaker 3: I just listened to her, and she was difficult, but
Speaker 3: like she had valid concerns. And because I was questioning
Speaker 3: it actually was very helpful for me to be like,
Speaker 3: she's not the only one thinking this. And so because
Speaker 3: I wasn't on that, I was not in the defense.
Speaker 3: And Ray Higden in rank maker's mode. I really did
Speaker 3: do feel like that's how I saved her, because she
Speaker 3: felt like we were on the same level. Well, when
Speaker 3: she signed back up, I never got that bonus. She
Speaker 3: I was then told, well, she let's see if she renews,
Speaker 3: if she sticks it out for the six months, you know,
Speaker 3: we'll make it even will make it even better for you. Right,
Speaker 3: it's always this dangling carrot that you're chasing. And I
Speaker 3: just was so exhausted, I like didn't care. So a
Speaker 3: friend of mine, who was like very influential in Ray's group,
Speaker 3: just I mean she was amazing on video. Ray like
Speaker 3: always recognized her for things she had left earlier that
Speaker 3: year because she created a course for him that he
Speaker 3: bundled up and sold and never paid her a dime for.
Speaker 3: So I had been talking to her a little bit,
Speaker 3: but I still it's like that cog native dissonance would
Speaker 3: like shut down my brain. Like I could only like
Speaker 3: speak to her a little bit because it's like I
Speaker 3: still felt like I needed to be in two places.
Speaker 3: But at this point, because I'm I'm so pissed off,
Speaker 3: and I'm actually allowing myself to be pissed off for
Speaker 3: like the first time in probably eight years. I'm I'm
Speaker 3: that's not an exaggeration, and I have this moment like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm in a cult. Like it was
Speaker 3: just like everything she was talking about, like with behavior
Speaker 3: control and information control and emotional control and manipulation, and
Speaker 3: and I'm like wait what, And so I'm like googling.
Speaker 3: I'm like starting to do all this on my own.
Speaker 3: And so I'm I message her and I say, I'm
Speaker 3: working on my exit strategy, like I see it, but
Speaker 3: I still didn't know how to leave.
Speaker 2: Jennifer didn't really have time to figure out that exit
Speaker 2: strategy before her next meeting with Ray.
Speaker 3: We had a monthly meeting with Ray as coaches where
Speaker 3: basically we went to him with questions and I'm going
Speaker 3: to shut my camera off. I don't even know if
Speaker 3: I can look at him. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: But I never felt like I was going to say
Speaker 3: something like I still felt so confused and alone. I
Speaker 3: wasn't quite sure. And one of my colleagues who had
Speaker 3: expressed that she was concerned about some of the things
Speaker 3: we were doing as coaches.
Speaker 2: She asks Ray Ray, I'll interrupt Jennifer right here, because
Speaker 2: this meeting of a handful of folks, the chosen ones
Speaker 2: who were working as coaches for Ray. It happened over zoom,
Speaker 2: and all of these meetings were recorded so people can
Speaker 2: return to.
Speaker 8: Them right.
Speaker 4: Oh for it.
Speaker 8: Who's got something?
Speaker 2: We have those recordings, and we don't want to use
Speaker 2: the voices of anyone but Ray and Jennifer, So I'll
Speaker 2: paraphrase the actual question this other coach asked him. She said, Ray,
Speaker 2: I have a coaching client who's been having a bit
Speaker 2: of a hard time, a bit of a downward spiral.
Speaker 2: We uncovered like where that came from. She was holding
Speaker 2: a lot of blame for something that happened in her childhood.
Speaker 2: I don't know if the awareness is enough to change things.
Speaker 2: And I'm curious if you have any other suggestions.
Speaker 3: He took it upon himself to just pitch his new book.
Speaker 8: I would really embrace. It's really one of the reasons
Speaker 8: that our next book, which sounds like is going to
Speaker 8: get picked up soon. But our next book is called defiance,
Speaker 8: and I think that help them embrace the concept of
Speaker 8: defiance of you know, when you're not feeling like doing
Speaker 8: it anytime you do it, whatever that is, when you
Speaker 8: don't feel like doing it, you're building that you're building
Speaker 8: your self worth, you're building your self esteem, you're building
Speaker 8: that defiance muscle, so you get stronger. And so that's
Speaker 8: what I would embrace with her. And you may even
Speaker 8: set some defiant goals of Okay, how about this week
Speaker 8: we go for five defiants. I want you to locate
Speaker 8: the things you know you should do that you're not doing,
Speaker 8: and I want you to do them. Be defiant to
Speaker 8: your emotion and feeling, because you're the master of your emotions.
Speaker 8: If you choose to be and do that thing, and
Speaker 8: the more that you do that thing, then the more
Speaker 8: self belief you're going to have and the more you're
Speaker 8: going to be able to easily do the things you
Speaker 8: know you should be doing.
Speaker 3: And he said the word defiance like thirty seven times.
Speaker 3: That's not even exaggeration, and I recognized it as neural
Speaker 3: and linguistic programming through all the stuff I was reading.
Speaker 3: And then he started to use all of these tactics
Speaker 3: like information control, behavior control, emotional control. He started like
Speaker 3: telling us what emotions were acceptable and one's what we're not,
Speaker 3: and like my brain was like firing on all cylinders,
Speaker 3: Like I'm like I could. I was just like checking
Speaker 3: off everything that I was reading about. He is emotionally
Speaker 3: manipulating us right now, he is controlling us. So then
Speaker 3: normally I was the person in the meeting who was
Speaker 3: like like writing, taking all these notes, raising my hand,
Speaker 3: like smiling, like being so happy. And I think he
Speaker 3: noticed it on my face that there was a change,
Speaker 3: and he wanted to, like what every leader of a
Speaker 3: high control environment wants to do is they want to
Speaker 3: make sure that they check your disobedience. So I think
Speaker 3: he saw it as like, like, what's with the look
Speaker 3: on Jennifer's face?
Speaker 2: And so he's like, Riola, what's going on, lady in rad.
Speaker 1: Nothing? What's going on with you?
Speaker 8: Such a but an endearing tone, Does anyone happen?
Speaker 1: I don't really agree with the advice. I feel like
Speaker 1: it's teaching people to deny their intuition.
Speaker 8: Okay, so what would you advise in that situation?
Speaker 1: So I always think when people have like feelings that
Speaker 1: come up, I don't think they're emotional addictions. I think,
Speaker 1: especially for women, like their feelings that come up are
Speaker 1: valid and that's almost like how women move through things.
Speaker 1: And I think like continuing to tell people like just
Speaker 1: distract from your emotions and activity that will get people
Speaker 1: to success, but they end up burned out. I mean
Speaker 1: I hear people all the time who are like, you.
Speaker 9: Know, there's so much activity, there's so many trainings, like
Speaker 9: we just had the Reals Challenge and the Influencer Brand Secrets,
Speaker 9: and now there's this one Ke challenge, and it's like
Speaker 9: all a huge distraction from what they really need to
Speaker 9: be doing with their business. And then what happens is
Speaker 9: we come to you with this information and you say, oh,
Speaker 9: it's something wrong with their mindset, and so I just think,
Speaker 9: for lack of a better word, it's all bullshit.
Speaker 4: Nice.
Speaker 8: I appreciate that.
Speaker 7: Because if we just keep perpetuating this idea that these
Speaker 7: people don't know themselves, then they're always going to feel
Speaker 7: like they're not enough, and they're always going to.
Speaker 1: Be like, I need to invest in this course, in
Speaker 1: this program, in this training, and they're.
Speaker 7: Always going to be like chasing this ideal of like.
Speaker 1: Time, money, freedom, cool. And if people are coming into
Speaker 1: this program to get results in their network marketing business,
Speaker 1: I get that there are a lot of people that
Speaker 1: are sold this program that have no business being here,
Speaker 1: that have deep emotional issues, not even at the point
Speaker 1: of taking any action. And yet they're sold the program
Speaker 1: and we're supposed to pick up the slack for that.
Speaker 1: We are like glorified counselors. And so then then I
Speaker 1: would suggest that at the sales level, are you just
Speaker 1: selling the program to sell the program? Are you actually
Speaker 1: selling it to the people that need it?
Speaker 2: And I don't think that that is consistent. Some of
Speaker 2: the other women on the call jumped in to defend Ray,
Speaker 2: not Jennifer. Here's another paraphrased quote from the woman who
Speaker 2: originally got the conversation started after hearing what Jennifer had
Speaker 2: to say. Sometimes they don't have the information, and it's
Speaker 2: like showing them where the information is and then helping
Speaker 2: them apply it. Like there's all these trainings and I
Speaker 2: now set them up in advance and say, hey, just
Speaker 2: so you know, there's a ton of information here. It's
Speaker 2: like a reference library. You wouldn't go into a reference
Speaker 2: library and try to read everything all at once. I
Speaker 2: feel like that's my responsibility to direct them to the
Speaker 2: right information and the right tasks.
Speaker 8: If they're saying, hey, I would like to work on
Speaker 8: the emotional stuff, then we need to help them and
Speaker 8: as best as we can get into some kind of action.
Speaker 1: Well, last time this was brought up, your answer was
Speaker 1: to sell them more coaching. And so that's the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff that I feel like, is this really about
Speaker 1: helping people?
Speaker 8: What do you mean about last time this was brought up,
Speaker 8: it was to sell them more coaching? What does that mean?
Speaker 1: The last time we had a meeting with you and
Speaker 1: it was brought up like people not getting results, whether
Speaker 1: they weren't taking action or not, people not getting results,
Speaker 1: your answer was to sell them more coaching, get them
Speaker 1: in the program, sell them more coaching. If they get
Speaker 1: to our event, if they sign up for another round.
Speaker 1: We know that we can help them, but we're not
Speaker 1: helping them. So it's not fair to the client to
Speaker 1: just sell them more coaching. That doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: Then another attendee jumps in. Sometimes they're perfectly line stuck
Speaker 2: for a little while, and that's where they need to be.
Speaker 2: So I don't know. I'm not sure why the energy
Speaker 2: of this today feels the way it does.
Speaker 1: The energy is a s way is because I've just
Speaker 1: been thinking this for a long time and I'm finally
Speaker 1: brave enough to say it. I'm finally not jumping on
Speaker 1: this call like fawning at Ray's feet. And I'm allowed
Speaker 1: to speak out because some of them are coming to
Speaker 1: us with I need like I'm struggling mentally, and I
Speaker 1: feel like we're coached to tell them, well, what happened
Speaker 1: in your childhood to make you feel that way? And
Speaker 1: it's like it's just like shame and bringing up like
Speaker 1: trauma when we're not licensed therapists to do so.
Speaker 8: So one you know, we we create options as a coach.
Speaker 8: If they're asking you, hey, should I do this? If
Speaker 8: you don't think they should, then don't sell it to them, right,
Speaker 8: It's not that big of a deal. I think the
Speaker 8: incongruence of if you've hated this for so long, like
Speaker 8: I don't, I don't know why you've stuck around. If
Speaker 8: you you hate, you know what we're doing here and
Speaker 8: you hate, you think that I'm never you're a guy
Speaker 8: or whatever.
Speaker 1: I never said hate.
Speaker 8: I just see the it's it's a strong emotion and
Speaker 8: I and I appreciate it. But I never said I
Speaker 8: wouldn't stay in an arena. Can you hear me felt
Speaker 8: this way?
Speaker 1: Can you hear me?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 1: I never said hate.
Speaker 2: That was the last time Ray and Jennifer ever spoke,
Speaker 2: her passwords were taken away. She lost a bunch of friends,
Speaker 2: and now she spends a lot of her time one
Speaker 2: loving on her children and her husband. Two hunting for
Speaker 2: morel mushrooms, which I taught her to do when I
Speaker 2: was there, but didn't record it because I was a
Speaker 2: little paranoid that one of you sleuths would hear something
Speaker 2: in the background, like a train perhaps or a certain
Speaker 2: bird call, and you'd be able to deduce the sweet
Speaker 2: spots full of morals that we found within like the
Speaker 2: first half hour of looking. So I know I didn't
Speaker 2: record that, but it did happen. I think we got
Speaker 2: like two dozen first outing seriously, and three she spending
Speaker 2: her time helping other people out of the situation she
Speaker 2: found herself in. Follow her on TikTok at. Jennifer spelled
Speaker 2: like j E nni fer dot. Riola spelled like r
Speaker 2: A ja la if you can believe it.
Speaker 3: For eight years, I poured my blood, sweat and tears
Speaker 3: into an MLM to create success.
Speaker 1: I became a VP within that company.
Speaker 9: Which is like the top two percent, and I was even.
Speaker 5: Recruited to become a coach within the industry across many companies,
Speaker 5: and I have no idea when it happened, but before
Speaker 5: I knew it, all of my time was consumed by
Speaker 5: the mission of these groups. I was coerced to constantly
Speaker 5: be losing and chasing time and money and calling it freedom.
Speaker 5: And so I'm using this page to tell my story
Speaker 5: about how I woke up from this cult behavior.
Speaker 3: I loved coaching others for a long time.
Speaker 5: I loved my company, I loved the products that they had,
Speaker 5: I loved my upline.
Speaker 3: So it's not what you think.
Speaker 5: I really just woke up and could no longer ignore
Speaker 5: all the bad vibes in an industry that preaches good vibes.
Speaker 5: Only again, I just want to make things right for
Speaker 5: myself and for those of hurt.
Speaker 3: I'm healing, and I no longer.
Speaker 5: Care about, you know, only seeing the positive and putting
Speaker 5: a positive spin on all this. I want to be
Speaker 5: honest so that it doesn't happen to you or someone
Speaker 5: that you love.
Speaker 2: Coming up on the dream. The one thing you need
Speaker 2: to know and be really good at to manipulate people
Speaker 2: change their mindsets and get them to pay you for it.
Speaker 2: Did you just hypnotize me in anyway not say necessarily
Speaker 2: say more.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm trying to condition you.
Speaker 2: What is neuro linguistic pro program? Well, neural linguistic program
Speaker 2: means neuro the mind body connection.
Speaker 4: But like I don't understand. What what do you say? Okay?
Speaker 2: So our world or map is made up of our
Speaker 2: five senses? Okay, Okay? Do I have to be doing
Speaker 2: this all the time?
Speaker 4: So what is the MLP?
Speaker 6: Sort?
Speaker 2: Jesus, because I just want you to give me.
Speaker 4: The let me give you a process.
Speaker 1: The Dream is.
Speaker 2: Written, hosted, and executive produced by me Jane Marie. Our
Speaker 2: producer is Mike Richter, with help from Nancy Golumbiski and
Speaker 2: Joy Sandford. Our editor is Peter Clowney. The Dream is
Speaker 2: a co production of Little Everywhere in Pushkin Industries. If
Speaker 2: you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering
Speaker 2: bonus content, exclusive binge opportunities, and ad free listening across
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