Speaker 1: The Around the NFL Podcast believes in your franchise quarterback.
Speaker 1: Well maybe not that guy.
Speaker 2: From the Chris Westling podcast studio. It is Around the
Speaker 2: NFL Bonus episode. He and Alf Dan Hans is here,
Speaker 2: Greg Rosenthal, Mark Sessler. Boys, this is something that we've
Speaker 2: been wanting to do. We were just looking for the
Speaker 2: right window to do it. And at the quarter pole ish,
Speaker 2: it feels like a good time to check in with
Speaker 2: the QB Index, which is a column for NFL dot
Speaker 2: com that has been in very good hands through the years.
Speaker 2: In fact, on today's program, I'm the only one that
Speaker 2: hasn't written the QB Index writing it next year, Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: over my dead body. But I've done power rankings. But
Speaker 2: it was a Chris Westling joint rip, it was a
Speaker 2: Greg Rosenthal, It then was a Mark Sessler joint, and
Speaker 2: then this offseason he handed the reins to a man
Speaker 2: we're gonna welcome in right now. He needs no introduction actually,
Speaker 2: because you see him every Sunday night on the Flagship program.
Speaker 2: He just got in a pump and he's a busy man.
Speaker 2: He's getting work to depth. We're gonna talk to Eli
Speaker 2: about that. By the way, in the newsroom.
Speaker 3: Nick Shook.
Speaker 2: He is the man, the myth, the writer of the
Speaker 2: NFL QB Index.
Speaker 4: Hi buddey, Hello, fellas, how are we doing today?
Speaker 5: I was very damaged seck of you. Hello fellas.
Speaker 6: I love that we got you at the quarter pole,
Speaker 6: because that was the week when I would do the
Speaker 6: QB Index year after year that I would officially like,
Speaker 6: I would put it in the notes that you take
Speaker 6: away any previous thoughts of like how good this quarterback
Speaker 6: is and it's just about twenty twenty three alone, and
Speaker 6: it's a lot. It's a big enough sample size that
Speaker 6: it's like, Okay, now I don't feel so bad like
Speaker 6: this year, for instance, totally burying Joe Burrow behind him,
Speaker 6: nobody's you got a just evaluate it on this year
Speaker 6: and this year it's not pretty.
Speaker 2: A little shot below the knees, right, It shook before
Speaker 2: you could say a word.
Speaker 4: Now this is you're to see a ton of that
Speaker 4: this week. I felt the same way. I look back
Speaker 4: and I was like, you know what, Look, it's been
Speaker 4: a month. They haven't done anything offensively with Joe Burrow.
Speaker 4: It's time to bury him. So I'm glad that you.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I would have even MARB. But we'll get
Speaker 5: to that writer.
Speaker 3: So shook.
Speaker 2: The assignment itself, by the way, before we get into
Speaker 2: the top ten. Yeah, with power rankings, the criticism could
Speaker 2: be withering from outside. Dude, and quarterbacks people are very
Speaker 2: very It's a very personal subject a quarterback for a
Speaker 2: sports fan and their favorite team, So I would imagine
Speaker 2: it gets pretty personal in your timeline. People don't take kindly,
Speaker 2: like maybe Bengals fans of a guy that's a Browns
Speaker 2: writer of the QB index burying one of the generational
Speaker 2: players at QB.
Speaker 3: At this stage of the season, you get a lot
Speaker 3: of heat for this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's too bad that I don't have a better
Speaker 4: professional picture of me actually doing my job other than
Speaker 4: when I was with the Browns and our great photographer
Speaker 4: there it's dark. He shout out to him, because that's
Speaker 4: my banner foot all on my Twitter page. And I
Speaker 4: can't tell you how many times people get to mentions
Speaker 4: you go, look at this guy, he's a Browns fan.
Speaker 5: You gotta change it. I got to change you.
Speaker 7: Do you have to change?
Speaker 6: Yeah, Instead you're doing a pump and you'll get a
Speaker 6: lot less.
Speaker 3: Don't.
Speaker 2: Don't because everybody wants to now pretend that they're not fans.
Speaker 3: I like that you're a fan, not a shot at you. Mark.
Speaker 7: I'm not pretending anything, but I would say, Shook. The
Speaker 7: other problem you have is proud. She's also five years old.
Speaker 5: That guy.
Speaker 7: You got to update it when you're burying it, like
Speaker 7: someone like.
Speaker 3: Who me check? I think I gotta update mine as well.
Speaker 7: It's time go ahead, Mark, I wasna say when you
Speaker 7: have Burrow like way down there, it's like people don't
Speaker 7: read the intro to these articles or any context around
Speaker 7: what's happening. They just didn't think that you're out of
Speaker 7: an outer space, dropping like an all pro level quarterback
Speaker 7: in the middle of nowhere, and it's like it is
Speaker 7: based on what's happened in these recent weeks my friends. Yeah,
Speaker 7: it's a rough existence.
Speaker 4: I considered writing an intro about Kirk Cousins a couple
Speaker 4: of weeks ago, but I just to fold it into
Speaker 4: his little blurb because I was getting a lot of
Speaker 4: hate for not including Kirk Cousins in the top ten
Speaker 4: when he was near the top of the league. And statistically,
Speaker 4: I've had people in my Instagram mentions or my dms
Speaker 4: calling me ignorant, telling me, I should be fired going
Speaker 4: to length's beyond that for my opinions on this thing.
Speaker 4: But look, guys, most of you aren't watching every game.
Speaker 4: You're watching your favorite teams game. I'm watched every game.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of got
Speaker 2: to bite your tongue because so many of the so
Speaker 2: much of the criticism comes from dumb naive.
Speaker 6: Again, but we have been watching all the games, and
Speaker 6: we're gonna come at you with flamethrowers.
Speaker 3: All right, Yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 2: Yes, this will be honest, honest criticism, but with respect
Speaker 2: for the man that does the work, watches the game
Speaker 2: and then compiles the list thoughtfully. Let's start with the
Speaker 2: top ten and we'll work our way downward. Let's take
Speaker 2: a look at it right here, Josh Allen. Yes, that
Speaker 2: shouldn't be a surprise, because who's playing better than this
Speaker 2: man in the last three weeks.
Speaker 3: Week one, a oberration.
Speaker 2: Here you go, Number two, Tua, number three, Pat Mahomes
Speaker 2: even after a clunker on Sunday night, Lamar Jackson four,
Speaker 2: Jalen Hurts five, Justin Herbert six, down two spots, Brock
Speaker 2: Purdy at seven, dak At eight, Matthew Stafford at nine
Speaker 2: and look at that.
Speaker 3: Isn't that funny? Why don't we start there?
Speaker 2: Jared Goff and Matt Stafford back to back in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three in the QB Index. Mark, I'd be curious
Speaker 2: your thoughts about this because you were writing this when
Speaker 2: GoF had kind of his reinvention with the Lions. GoF
Speaker 2: is an easy guy to put in the top ten
Speaker 2: because who's been more consistent than him this year?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think Goff last year when he
Speaker 7: started to really statistically rise up and like was a
Speaker 7: different version than you had to like separate everything you
Speaker 7: kind of think about Jared Goff into what you're actually seeing,
Speaker 7: and like in that offense he fits so well and
Speaker 7: I think he cracked my top ten by the end
Speaker 7: of the season. But it was one where you're just like,
Speaker 7: you're gonna get flamed no matter what you do with
Speaker 7: the Jared Goff, someone's gonna dis disagree with these Nick.
Speaker 4: I think so much of this is, at least the
Speaker 4: perception of it, is built on reputation, which is actually
Speaker 4: oddly enough, how the first month usually looks until you
Speaker 4: get to this point. But Jared Goff has consistently outperformed
Speaker 4: his reputation. I mean, even going back to Week one,
Speaker 4: I was surprised to see so many people I mentioned
Speaker 4: saying I can't believe the Lions won despite how Jared
Speaker 4: Goff played. He didn't lose them the game. In fact,
Speaker 4: he put them in multiple positions to win the game.
Speaker 4: That's what he's done for the majority of this year.
Speaker 4: The only big mistake he made was turning the ball
Speaker 4: over in that overtime loss to the Seahawks. Otherwise he's
Speaker 4: operating this offense. He's probably playing some of the best
Speaker 4: football of his career. Yeah, it's not spectacular Josh Allen
Speaker 4: level stuff, but it's consistent, it's reliable, and they're winning
Speaker 4: football games because of it. So I feel pretty good
Speaker 4: about him being in the top ten.
Speaker 6: It's clean. I think he's played better this year. Unbalanced
Speaker 6: because I think he's been more consistent to your point
Speaker 6: than he did a year ago. But I would have
Speaker 6: him in Stafford still quite separate when I looked at
Speaker 6: the ranks, because I've initially I just looked at it
Speaker 6: last week and you had Stafford in the middle of
Speaker 6: the pack, and now now you've you've bumped him up
Speaker 6: to nine. He's someone and I know you're not doing
Speaker 6: enough stats because his stats aren't great, like touchdown interception.
Speaker 6: It's why I never like passer rating. Touchdown interceptions just
Speaker 6: not great. I mean, it's it's a it's a bullet
Speaker 6: point to pay attention to. But if you're watching Stafford
Speaker 6: week after week as you are, I'm just so impressed
Speaker 6: with the quality of throws and I and it's so
Speaker 6: hard in this exercise to divorce him from the situation.
Speaker 6: But I think in just terms of high level quarterbacking
Speaker 6: what he's doing, he's a top five quarterback to me
Speaker 6: so far this year, even before last week. I know
Speaker 6: he had the okay, too bad Bengals game, but in
Speaker 6: three out of four weeks, I think you can look
Speaker 6: the way he's played, and in that week he is
Speaker 6: up there with the Josh Allens and the Mahomes for
Speaker 6: me right now, where so I'd push him up even
Speaker 6: a little bit higher.
Speaker 5: But I'm glad. You'm glad you got him into the
Speaker 5: top ten.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the funny thing, greg Is. I don't even
Speaker 4: disagree with you. It's just that he came from the
Speaker 4: middle of the pack. Yeah, and if he hadn't had
Speaker 4: that bad Week three game, he'd be up there right now.
Speaker 4: And you know it's funny because you say you try
Speaker 4: to divorce them from the situation, but you have to
Speaker 4: consider the situation which he's operating right and look at
Speaker 4: his receivers. It's pukinnakua and it's two two at well,
Speaker 4: he's got Ronnie Rivers taking handoffs in the back of
Speaker 4: the Kyram Williams is their lead back and a remade
Speaker 4: offensive line that's playing better than I anticipated that they would.
Speaker 4: And most importantly, he's healthy. He looks really good. He
Speaker 4: looks like old Matt Stafford. He's pushing them to victories
Speaker 4: right now's.
Speaker 6: Just better, maybe in some ways better Like I I
Speaker 6: think he's like kind of taken the things he's learned
Speaker 6: over the years, and physically he's still great right now.
Speaker 5: At least we'll see about the hit.
Speaker 6: But uh, like, I think he's playing as well as
Speaker 6: he did in the twenty twenty one playoffs.
Speaker 2: Put it that way, Mark throwout in this top ten.
Speaker 2: Someone whose placement surprises you, well, you've mentioned the Matthew Stafford.
Speaker 7: I can I actually give you credit for brock party
Speaker 7: because I feel like other people would take brock Party
Speaker 7: and just because of the offense that he's in the
Speaker 7: environment like that, we all get it. It may inflate
Speaker 7: the Jimmy Garoppolos of the world and other quarterbacks like
Speaker 7: Rock Purty. I don't know what else he needs to do.
Speaker 7: He may not be as physically impressive as the person
Speaker 7: above him, justin Herbert, But what more at this level
Speaker 7: do you need to do to produce? He was twenty
Speaker 7: for twenty one a week ago. He distributes the ball
Speaker 7: all over the place like he's I think to be
Speaker 7: a seventh round pick and to be what he's done
Speaker 7: since week fourteen last year. This is like a pristine
Speaker 7: performance by a quarterback. No one expected it at number seven.
Speaker 7: I think other people just sort of drop him out
Speaker 7: of the top ten because of the I guess certain
Speaker 7: things that you just assume coming in, like brock Party
Speaker 7: deserves seven.
Speaker 2: And to kind of dovetail off that show. It kind
Speaker 2: of is in terms of what you do. It's interesting
Speaker 2: to me, how do you factor in when you make
Speaker 2: this list. You know, the setup around him, the environment,
Speaker 2: like you obviously aren't digging Brock for it to have
Speaker 2: him in the top ten. I'd probably have him outside
Speaker 2: the top ten because of that reason, but I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have him buried either because he's still playing at a
Speaker 2: high level.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You know what matters to me so much, and I
Speaker 4: think this is extremely applicable with Brock Purdy is are
Speaker 4: you hurting your team? That's the first thing I need
Speaker 4: to check off the list. If you're not hurting your team,
Speaker 4: all right, then you're we're in the positive territory. Are
Speaker 4: you helping your team win games?
Speaker 3: All right?
Speaker 4: That's the next positive, you know area. That's that's are
Speaker 4: you executing the offense? Are you winning games for your team?
Speaker 4: Those are the three different levels that I kind of
Speaker 4: consider these guys. And that's the thing is that they're
Speaker 4: not but you can help push your team to a
Speaker 4: victory with your performance. What he's doing right now is
Speaker 4: executing this offense exactly as it's intended. I think that
Speaker 4: if he was in some other situations, he wouldn't be
Speaker 4: as good, but you could say that about most anybody.
Speaker 4: And more than anything, he's playing clean football. It's kind
Speaker 4: of like Jared Goff in a sense, except that it's
Speaker 4: much more effortless, even than the Lions offense. That the
Speaker 4: forty nine ers is. I mean, yeah, he's got a
Speaker 4: lot of talent around him, of course, but he's calling.
Speaker 4: He's cool, he's collected, He's somebody I enjoy watching because
Speaker 4: the confidence in that pocket right now, sometimes to a
Speaker 4: fault occasionally, it's just so remarkable for a guy who's
Speaker 4: so young, he plays it like he's a ten year veteran.
Speaker 4: He's not hurting them. He's throwing the ball downfield to
Speaker 4: Brandon Ayyuk, he's dumping an off on time to Christian McCaffrey.
Speaker 4: It's just a well oiled machine, and a lot of
Speaker 4: that has to do with a guy who executes it perfectly,
Speaker 4: and it makes a lot of sense why they committed
Speaker 4: to him in the off season.
Speaker 6: It's so funny, though, because we just went through this
Speaker 6: five year debate about Jimmy G in the exact same offense,
Speaker 6: and it's like an ab test because I think you
Speaker 6: can see pretty clearly he's better than Jimmy G. I
Speaker 6: think he is, and he has a higher ceiling than
Speaker 6: Jimmy G. Now, Jimmy G just by wins losses by
Speaker 6: EPA per play, was a Hall of Famer.
Speaker 5: I mean, just by those stats. I mean by if
Speaker 5: he was healthy.
Speaker 6: But like in terms of like the EPA per play,
Speaker 6: he was top four every year, touchdown, interception wins, losses,
Speaker 6: top five.
Speaker 3: Every uncomfortable even putting upload and Hall of Fame in
Speaker 3: the right.
Speaker 5: No, no, and I'm not so that's why.
Speaker 6: And I think you can look at Purty and I
Speaker 6: think you can see him a little better. And I
Speaker 6: was like, Dan I saw that, I'm like, oh, that's
Speaker 6: too high for Purtty because I don't because to me,
Speaker 6: I think you look at Stafford, you look at Hurts.
Speaker 5: I would even throw Cousins. I would actually throw Gino
Speaker 5: in there.
Speaker 6: This is where it gets murky and stroud, and you think,
Speaker 6: is he making the guys around him better? Is he
Speaker 6: elevating the offensive? Is he doing high level quarterback stuff?
Speaker 6: But then I decided to be fair to you actually
Speaker 6: make my own list, and in the end it's like, actually, no,
Speaker 6: I still would have him at a dock and a
Speaker 6: head of golf, and I have him around eleven or twelve.
Speaker 6: It's not that big of a difference from eight or nine.
Speaker 6: Like a few spots. It does hurt me, so to
Speaker 6: see him below Stafford, it hurts me.
Speaker 2: We got twelve minutes into the show until Greg sai,
Speaker 2: we're gonna work off his list now so we can
Speaker 2: say goodbye and thank you again, see you Sunday night.
Speaker 5: I mean, you gotta make the list.
Speaker 6: It's like people who say, oh, that's a snub, you
Speaker 6: snubbed them from the Pro Bowl, Well, then tell me
Speaker 6: what you would have put it in.
Speaker 5: So I had to make my own rinks. And then
Speaker 5: I realized, you know.
Speaker 2: What, it's not that all right, that's that's a good
Speaker 2: theory in a way to do it. Before we move
Speaker 2: into the middle tier and anybody else jump in, I
Speaker 2: want to give you a shout out here for Jalen Hurts,
Speaker 2: and he has not moved from next week. You had
Speaker 2: him number five last week, number five this week. Some
Speaker 2: of the it almost felt like the Salem Witch trials,
Speaker 2: the hysteria around the passing game of the Eagles and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, like that's fine, this is a top
Speaker 2: five quarterback. They're figuring things out. You saw that against Washington.
Speaker 2: The passing game with AJ Brown was unstoppable. Devanta Smith
Speaker 2: had a huge play. Like I'm feeling very good about Hurts,
Speaker 2: and that's respect for Mahomes obviously, keeping him in the
Speaker 2: top three despite him not being a top three producer
Speaker 2: through four weeks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. This is the first time that I had
Speaker 4: Mahomes out of the top two, and it felt justified
Speaker 4: because of the game that he had in New York
Speaker 4: and but the body of work overall. You know, he's
Speaker 4: had a spectacular game against the Bears, kind of middling
Speaker 4: stuff otherwise a tough one even though they won that
Speaker 4: game against the Jets, So I mean, he's still that
Speaker 4: guy's great week.
Speaker 6: Run though I thought, like that's the thing. I to me,
Speaker 6: he would have stayed in the top two. You're right,
Speaker 6: the Jets game was bad. I mean, yeah, last week
Speaker 6: was bad. But before that, like I know, the numbers,
Speaker 6: I guess weren't there. But who was out playing him?
Speaker 6: Maybe Allen maybe too, So that makes sense.
Speaker 2: You said one big I just mean from numbers statistically,
Speaker 2: one big game, and he's been okay as a producer.
Speaker 2: But that's not just what this list is about. And
Speaker 2: I like that mark anything else before we move on? No,
Speaker 2: I want to move on, all right, I got something
Speaker 2: in the next tier. That's all right, We'll start you off.
Speaker 2: Then let's check out this second tier here. Number eleven,
Speaker 2: down two spots. Kirk Cousins, Gino Smith at twelve, down six.
Speaker 3: Oh, Greggy's sharping his fangs.
Speaker 5: No, I'm impressed yet, Gino at six going into week four.
Speaker 3: So I love you for that same.
Speaker 2: How about this, Texans fans, you got a new world
Speaker 2: because CJ. Stroud is up seven spots to thirteen. Sam
Speaker 2: Howell up eleven. He washes that four pick game out
Speaker 2: of his mouth and moves up to fourteen. Baker fifteen
Speaker 2: and shook the Browns fan and is feeling good about that.
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson down two to sixteen. Anthony Richardson, hmm, I
Speaker 2: don't like that. We'll talk about it at seventeen. Trevor
Speaker 2: Lawrence down seven to eighteen. Woof, Justin Fields and Jordan
Speaker 2: Love down five spots to twenty. I should mention Justin
Speaker 2: Field's up twelve spots to nineteen, So do the math.
Speaker 2: He was buried at the bottom of this list before
Speaker 2: week four.
Speaker 3: Mark. What are you seeing?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 7: I do we should talk about Anthony Richardson. That's a
Speaker 7: tough's that's a tough one in this exercise, and like
Speaker 7: you're gonna it's that this is gonna be interesting season
Speaker 7: to see where he goes on this list. Trevor Lawrence
Speaker 7: to me, I just think that, like, I don't see
Speaker 7: a quarterback that's lesser than last season, but I do
Speaker 7: see a lot of I think he like he's got
Speaker 7: top some of the top drops in the league in
Speaker 7: terms of like not being helped by his wideouts. He said,
Speaker 7: some tough situations in the red zone, in the ed zone.
Speaker 7: I think like Trevor Lawrence to me, I would comfortably
Speaker 7: put him above like the Sam Howell, the Baker Mayfield,
Speaker 7: the Russell Wilson of the world, above Gino. Frankly, I
Speaker 7: just and part of me. And this is why I
Speaker 7: struggle with his exercise a little bit, is I couldn't
Speaker 7: separate like who I truly believe Trevor Lawrence is from
Speaker 7: maybe some up and down performance of the offense, and
Speaker 7: like I'd move these guys all around during the exercise
Speaker 7: of it. But Lawrence, to me, he just stands out.
Speaker 7: I think he's PFF's number two quarterback. That's a different metric.
Speaker 7: Let them do their thing, but wow, that's a little
Speaker 7: showy by PFF.
Speaker 3: It's a little showy. But I think that.
Speaker 7: Trevor Lawrence like, has just not been that different from
Speaker 7: the guy that I came into the season loving personally.
Speaker 7: So Nick, I wonder what brought you to the point
Speaker 7: of putting them down at eighteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think he goes back to Greg's point that after
Speaker 4: a month of football, you kind of reorganize based on
Speaker 4: what they've done this year. Because I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Speaker 4: That was one of the more difficult ones. And it's why,
Speaker 4: as you know, producer Eric copied and pasted my spreadsheet
Speaker 4: that I made. Do you guys like my color coordinations?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Right, you were much more organized than.
Speaker 3: Wow, look at that. Whoa you have the team color?
Speaker 3: That was you?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I thought that was No, that was me,
Speaker 4: And so I cautioned putting the move week by week
Speaker 4: in there. It's really for my own tracking than anything,
Speaker 4: But I thought, he why not send it over because
Speaker 4: it looks drastic with some guys like Lawrence didn't have
Speaker 4: a seven spot drop worthy performance last week. It's just
Speaker 4: that after a month where he started where I've kind
Speaker 4: of kept him based on a mix of Rick tation
Speaker 4: performance and then now just looking at this season, I
Speaker 4: just feel like they're not quite there yet, and it's
Speaker 4: really not his fault. Mark's completely right. There were some
Speaker 4: near misses, there were some drops, there were some issues.
Speaker 4: The offense has just really not gotten completely going. But
Speaker 4: at the same time, I know who he is and
Speaker 4: I know that eventually they're going to get there. They
Speaker 4: just haven't put together complete performances as an offense with
Speaker 4: Lawrence so far, and that's not entirely his fault. But
Speaker 4: that's just where he stands.
Speaker 6: I'd push back, though, because I can get why PFF
Speaker 6: has I'm surprised hees too seems high, but they're grading on.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, by the way, right, But that's THEFF
Speaker 2: holmost like, look at us. We now he's here's the
Speaker 2: second best quarterback in football this year.
Speaker 5: Andy Dalton too, And I used to try to do
Speaker 5: this too.
Speaker 6: I had my own little system to it that I
Speaker 6: didn't think was scientific, but it was my system of
Speaker 6: you grade each player, you grade positive negatives. And they're
Speaker 6: looking at Lawrence and I kind of know which quarterbacks
Speaker 6: end up doing well in their system. It's quarterbacks who
Speaker 6: don't make bad throws. He doesn't do that that on
Speaker 6: a play to play basis. If you just grade him,
Speaker 6: isn't having many negatives and is going to have a
Speaker 6: lot of positives.
Speaker 5: And I still see that with him this year. Now
Speaker 5: two is a step too far for me.
Speaker 6: But I think he's running the offense they're asking and
Speaker 6: occasionally maybe he's getting rid of the ball too quickly,
Speaker 6: not holding on for that extra beat and looking for
Speaker 6: something downfield. It's almost like he's anticipating that he's got
Speaker 6: a bad offensive line, and they do have a bad
Speaker 6: offensive line. So I would have him lower, but I
Speaker 6: would have him in the top ten because I think
Speaker 6: he's playing at quite a high level. To me, he
Speaker 6: would be in the golf Gino area, and i'd put
Speaker 6: him maybe a little higher than that, right at the
Speaker 6: back end of the top ten, even just on this season,
Speaker 6: because I think it's more the offense and what's been
Speaker 6: around him that's hurting his numbers.
Speaker 4: And you know, the other product this is too, because
Speaker 4: that's essentially where he was prior to this week. It's
Speaker 4: the re shuffling of the other guys that just knocks
Speaker 4: some guys down, you know, moving Stafford up, moving hal backup,
Speaker 4: who's been the most voluable player in this entire group
Speaker 4: so far. Eventually, guys just kind of slide down and
Speaker 4: then you look at it your reorder a little bit
Speaker 4: more and you think, okay, after a month, that's kind
Speaker 4: of where they are. Even though I know Trevor's a
Speaker 4: better player than that ranking.
Speaker 2: Right now, I think this, I think he did a
Speaker 2: really good job here with what you call the middle
Speaker 2: class to the upper middle class. I would maybe personally
Speaker 2: have Richardson a little higher because I think he's shown
Speaker 2: himself to be a playmaker, but durability is part of
Speaker 2: the gig as well.
Speaker 5: I thought you were going to say you wanted Richardson lower.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, like this is Dan Scoyem, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: I mean up around Cousins and Gino's okay, I think
Speaker 2: he should be just I just think he's done a
Speaker 2: lot in a little amount of time. But the playing
Speaker 2: time is in part because he's been hurt, and that's
Speaker 2: a problem as well.
Speaker 6: I love Howell Mayfield Russ back to back to back
Speaker 6: because they're all comps for each other, right right. They
Speaker 6: all remind me of each other and it's interesting to
Speaker 6: look at them. That is your Dalton line right now.
Speaker 6: That is kind of the middle, at least of the
Speaker 6: NFL right now. Shook, you nailed it, Howell, Mayfield Wilson
Speaker 6: and how about c J.
Speaker 5: Starta.
Speaker 6: I know, I don't think anyone's arguing I'm not that
Speaker 6: that seems perfect for his spot.
Speaker 7: But what a I'd put him above Gino even so.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what a money out of him?
Speaker 3: I'm too low and Kirk similar I think put him
Speaker 3: right on the end doorstep at the top ten. That's glorious.
Speaker 5: It's funny.
Speaker 6: Those three actually remind me of each other a little
Speaker 6: bit stylistically too, just in terms of how they win,
Speaker 6: what they do well. Tell us what you've just seen
Speaker 6: in CJ. Stroud, Just what you liked about him?
Speaker 4: Accuracy, poise, confidence in an offense that suits him perfectly.
Speaker 4: He's throwing guys open. He looks like he's been in
Speaker 4: the league for five years. They're winning because of him.
Speaker 4: He looks way better than even I anticipated. And the
Speaker 4: Texans are a fun watch because he's playing quarterback right now.
Speaker 4: And you know that was a big jump to move
Speaker 4: him up there, but I felt he completely earned it.
Speaker 4: And the only difference really, like you kind of get
Speaker 4: a Stroud and Richardson sandwich here with those three guys
Speaker 4: that are similar comps in between, and the only reason
Speaker 4: is is because Richardson hasn't been in every game and
Speaker 4: you know the durability thing. That's it. That's the only
Speaker 4: reason otherwise CJ Stroud right now, like we've talked about,
Speaker 4: you know, this week leading candidate for Offensive Rookie the Year,
Speaker 4: and I think Richardson's going to make a strong play
Speaker 4: for that. If if Richardson continues to play like this,
Speaker 4: they're gonna be neck and neck in these rankings throughout
Speaker 4: the year.
Speaker 2: The only one I'm seeing here that maybe I'm bumping
Speaker 2: up against a little bit before we move on, Jordan Love,
Speaker 2: you have at twenty, I would imagine for you he's
Speaker 2: been a kind of a tough evaluation because he's shown
Speaker 2: really exciting moments and moments of leadership and playmaking, but
Speaker 2: also he's had a lot of his core missing and
Speaker 2: there have been some dry spots. Thursday night against the
Speaker 2: Lines last week was not great shakes. Has he been
Speaker 2: a little tough for you to play so far?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he just hasn't played a complete game yet. You know,
Speaker 4: there's been flashes where he's gone out there and led
Speaker 4: them back to victory against the Saints and done some
Speaker 4: really good things, some exciting things, but watching him is
Speaker 4: kind of an unhinged experience because he doesn't quite have
Speaker 4: everything together underneath him, and he'll try to make the
Speaker 4: superhero play a little bit too often, and then he
Speaker 4: kind of settles down shorter passes, gets into a rhythm,
Speaker 4: and then suddenly that offense is unlocked and you find
Speaker 4: success just not complete and consistent over a four game
Speaker 4: stretch so far. But I like what I see from him.
Speaker 4: I think he's got a bright future.
Speaker 2: And I'll just make a quick note before we move
Speaker 2: to the back end that we'reding this ahead of TNF
Speaker 2: kickoff week five, So don't get fired up about fields
Speaker 2: and Howell's placement if they do something marvelous or terrible
Speaker 2: on Thursday.
Speaker 5: Very possible with those two quarterbacks.
Speaker 3: Yes, so this is.
Speaker 2: All through week four, and now let's move to the
Speaker 2: bottom of Now, bottom of the barrel is not fair,
Speaker 2: but this is the bottom third of the QB index.
Speaker 2: Ryan Tannehill up eight spots, so he was buried, but
Speaker 2: he moves up to twenty one. Derek Carr drops one
Speaker 2: spot to twenty two. Joe Burrow, that's the conversation that
Speaker 2: we hinted at it early on and we should get
Speaker 2: back into it. Down eleven to twenty three. Eight In
Speaker 2: O'Connell the Raiders rookie twenty four.
Speaker 3: Look at Joe Burrow just ahead of Ader O'Connell. What
Speaker 3: a world.
Speaker 2: Josh Dobbs twenty five, up three spots. Zach Wilson, after
Speaker 2: showing signs of life on Sunday Night Football, up six
Speaker 2: to twenty six. Bryce Young the first overall pick at
Speaker 2: twenty seven, down one spot. Mac Jones takes a nosedive
Speaker 2: after the Cowboys debacle, Down nine spots to twenty eight.
Speaker 3: Can he pick it?
Speaker 2: Down seven spots after a rough one against Houston to
Speaker 2: twenty nine.
Speaker 3: Daniel Jones another.
Speaker 2: Dirt nap, down seven to number thirty after a wipeout
Speaker 2: on Monday Night Football. Desmond Ritter more or less stays
Speaker 2: where he is at number thirty one, rightfully so and yeah,
Speaker 2: Dorian Thompson Robinson shook. He watched that game yesterday and
Speaker 2: that was that was a tough debut for dtr Get
Speaker 2: well soon. Deshaun Watson. Where's Deshaun Watson? So he's off
Speaker 2: the list because he so?
Speaker 7: Can I like I don't shook? Or they hope they're
Speaker 7: helping you out here more last year, like when Jalen
Speaker 7: Hurts went out for this week and Minshew came in
Speaker 7: two weeks, you have to like you act like Jalen
Speaker 7: Hurts doesn't exist, and suddenly Gardner Minshew comes into the lineup.
Speaker 7: And I'm sure they've corrected this because I had to.
Speaker 7: It would cause me a four or five days of
Speaker 7: utter havoc. But you know, Jalen Hurts was hanging out
Speaker 7: at one or two and then he goes out, and
Speaker 7: it's like they put out Mark Sessler's top ten QB
Speaker 7: list and Jalen Hurts isn't even in the time ten
Speaker 7: and there isn't like an asterisk that says like injured
Speaker 7: players not shown. And just like suddenly everyone east of
Speaker 7: the Mississippi is like taking out like a verbal machine
Speaker 7: gun to take me out. So I hope for your
Speaker 7: saying that's not happening.
Speaker 2: I just say, and I'm sure it is happening. Shook still,
Speaker 2: but I mean a little how the sausage gets made.
Speaker 2: But I would say maybe a conversation with Ali Bompuri.
Speaker 3: No, he he met these guys into the list.
Speaker 7: He was very receptive. So this isn't like me a
Speaker 7: year later trying.
Speaker 3: To I'm saying, let's get the shot just because he
Speaker 3: missed the week.
Speaker 6: But you know, so you can blame me because that
Speaker 6: was you know, I started, and this was my policy.
Speaker 6: But you could change the policy because I wanted to
Speaker 6: write about who has played.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 6: You want to like if a rookie you waited till
Speaker 6: the week after, but if you have a rookie play
Speaker 6: in his first game, you want to write about how
Speaker 6: he looked, and so you would.
Speaker 7: And when you're writing about these guys like eighteen nineteen
Speaker 7: weeks in a row getting a fresh rice and there
Speaker 7: is not that that was part writing twenty twos about
Speaker 7: Derek Carr. You I'm ready to like jump off a
Speaker 7: cliff at some point. This is definitely an offline converse.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, no, no, yeah, guys, you're what you're doing
Speaker 4: is I'm taking a lot of bullets every week with this,
Speaker 4: and he shouldn't be part of the job. But you
Speaker 4: just gave me like a handful of smokernades, incredible cover.
Speaker 4: I'm moving from one bunker to the next right now.
Speaker 4: Thank you, you guys.
Speaker 6: I couldn't believe how low Josh Dobbs was this is
Speaker 6: where I think, if you're getting to week five, maybe
Speaker 6: more than any player on this list, you're just valuing
Speaker 6: how he's played on a week to week basis.
Speaker 5: He's taught.
Speaker 6: I think he's number two in the NFL espn QBR
Speaker 6: in terms of rushing value. He's like middle of the
Speaker 6: pack overall, but rushing value isn't that crazy. He's been
Speaker 6: a great runner, great decision maker, I would say, been accurate.
Speaker 6: You know, he doesn't have all the pop in his
Speaker 6: arm and all that, and the production has been good,
Speaker 6: not great. To me, he's up there in the hot
Speaker 6: maybe a head even of the Dalton line in terms
Speaker 6: of how he's.
Speaker 3: On your lengths, on your rankings just then.
Speaker 7: But he reminds me i'd like to see he's like
Speaker 7: this year's Jacoby Brissette, who like people were like, no,
Speaker 7: I'm not believing what I'm seeing.
Speaker 6: Right, it's not as high as maybe I'm making it sound.
Speaker 6: I had him seventeen, so a little higher, seventeen sixteen,
Speaker 6: right near russen Baks.
Speaker 3: You have him at twenty five.
Speaker 5: So to me, he's he's right in that group where man,
Speaker 5: he's playing some good ball.
Speaker 4: He would have sat there if he hadn't had accuracy
Speaker 4: issues in the first half in Week four. That was
Speaker 4: the biggest drawback to me, was that he missed a
Speaker 4: number of open guys over the middle early in that
Speaker 4: game as they fell behind. He was he was erratic
Speaker 4: and and in the win over the Cowboys, he did
Speaker 4: his job well. The rushing value really showed in that game,
Speaker 4: but it wasn't necessarily a game where he had to
Speaker 4: go throw them to victory. As much as he did
Speaker 4: his job, did it well. So I think that if
Speaker 4: he were to put together a type of game that
Speaker 4: he had in the second half against the forty nine
Speaker 4: ers in a full game in the week ahead, you'll
Speaker 4: see him rise back up. He's the one guy where
Speaker 4: I want to keep nudging him. I just just come out.
Speaker 6: I mean, there's no way Joe Burrow's played better than
Speaker 6: him this year for instance, No or car or Tannehill.
Speaker 5: That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3: It's a tough assignment though it is.
Speaker 5: No, No, it's not. He knows it's not personal.
Speaker 3: How about so Bryce Young?
Speaker 2: I feel like this is shaping up as a tricky
Speaker 2: one triggering for Panthers fans, For Bryce young. You're probably
Speaker 2: feeling a lot of frustration because there are quarterbacks in
Speaker 2: your class who are thriving that were taken right behind you.
Speaker 2: Not only can you, are you dealing with injury issues.
Speaker 2: The surrounding talent is not at a high level. Is
Speaker 2: he a difficult evaluation again because of the injuries and
Speaker 2: the supporting cast? Like, what are you seeing from him
Speaker 2: as a quarterback so far?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Its situation does matter. I also think this is
Speaker 4: an uninspired offense under Frank Reich and his staff so far.
Speaker 4: They're not doing him a lot of favors. But he's
Speaker 4: also not doing himself a lot of favors. You know,
Speaker 4: he's playing too much superhero ball, trusting his physical attributes
Speaker 4: that found success at Alabama that are not going to
Speaker 4: create the same positive plays in the NFL. I mean,
Speaker 4: I think about that stripsack that he gave up, you
Speaker 4: know that basically swung the game on Sunday against the Vikings.
Speaker 4: It was a play where you just take the sack.
Speaker 4: You know, you see the rush in your face, you
Speaker 4: take the sack. He tried to get rid of the ball,
Speaker 4: tried to evade the tackler, He fumbled his return for
Speaker 4: a touchdown. Those are the types of mistakes where he
Speaker 4: just thinks he can do everything and he can't quite
Speaker 4: do everything, hasn't learned it yet. And then the situation
Speaker 4: also matters as well. Doesn't have the best supporting cast.
Speaker 4: So I think that he has a positive, bright future.
Speaker 4: It's just that, you know, you gotta understand, you got
Speaker 4: to play a little bit more within yourself.
Speaker 7: At this point, I look at the bottom and I
Speaker 7: forget dtr here, but Bryce Young, Mac Jones, Canny Pickett,
Speaker 7: Daniel Jones, Desmond Rider. I wish I could come at
Speaker 7: you with something, but I don't have a huge problem
Speaker 7: with that at all. This is where these guys belong
Speaker 7: right now.
Speaker 4: Well, A couple of those guys have bad offensive lines
Speaker 4: and poor schemes, Kenny Pickett being one of those. It's
Speaker 4: a combination of the two. In Pittsburgh, it feels like
Speaker 4: every third down they face is third and twelve or longer.
Speaker 4: I think he's starting to see ghosts because he doesn't
Speaker 4: trust his offensive line. Daniel Jones was mauled on Monday night.
Speaker 4: I felt bad for him because you do see glimpses
Speaker 4: of him, but overall he has not lived up the expectation.
Speaker 4: And then Mac Jones, another guy who tries to do
Speaker 4: a little bit too much, throwing a pass across the field,
Speaker 4: getting picked off, throwing an ugly interception, later getting stripsack
Speaker 4: from behind trying to evade. It was a really rough
Speaker 4: game for him. It wasn't as ugly as I thought
Speaker 4: it was going to be statistically speaking, But then I
Speaker 4: look back and I was like, ah, man, this is
Speaker 4: not a good trend for him right now. He has
Speaker 4: not settled in at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's circle back to Burrow because I think, again,
Speaker 2: being a veteran at listicles here at NFL dot com,
Speaker 2: it's kind of a good one for you because that's
Speaker 2: the headline. Burrow drops into the bottom tier or whatever
Speaker 2: in the nether world, and you can back it up statistically,
Speaker 2: you can back it up with the eye test. And
Speaker 2: before people can, you know, get on you, including Bengals fans,
Speaker 2: you say, listen, you're seeing it. This is not Joe Burrow.
Speaker 2: I mean, his name is Joe Burrow. He still looks
Speaker 2: like a full grown Macaulay Culkin like. He still looks
Speaker 2: like Joe Burrow. But the player robbed of his athleticism
Speaker 2: is not the same player, and you could even argue Shook,
Speaker 2: you could argue you could put him lower because of
Speaker 2: how stilted and really doa this offense is with this
Speaker 2: type of quarterback right now, I've been vocal about you
Speaker 2: he should be out of the lineup until he gets
Speaker 2: a little bit better or a lot better. But they
Speaker 2: see I determined to have him play through this tough one.
Speaker 4: We are bordering on gross negligence in the part of
Speaker 4: the Bengals right now with Joe Burrow because he is
Speaker 4: not physically capable of being the player that he wants
Speaker 4: to be that he's gotten to this point in his
Speaker 4: career by being He can't move. He's a statue in
Speaker 4: the pocket. He's like Tom Brady in the pocket, except
Speaker 4: he doesn't have tom Brady's priestnappabilities and cannot deliver the
Speaker 4: same way tom Brady did without getting out and running.
Speaker 4: It's not that Joe Burrow is a mobile quarterback per se,
Speaker 4: but his ability to extend plays, navigate the pocket, and
Speaker 4: then pick up rushing you know, positive gains when he
Speaker 4: needs to is part of what makes him great. And
Speaker 4: instead he's stuck behind an offensive line. That's okay, that's
Speaker 4: not great, but is okay is not doing him any favors.
Speaker 4: Neither is the fact that the Bengals for some reason
Speaker 4: don't want to run the football with Joe Mixon other
Speaker 4: than on the first drive of the game. Their play
Speaker 4: calling has done him no favorites. They're asking him to
Speaker 4: do way too much right now, and that's why you're
Speaker 4: getting the stagnant offense where Joe Burrow looks rather mortal
Speaker 4: instead of some superhuman deserving of the highest contract in
Speaker 4: the NFL.
Speaker 7: Backing up where he puts him, I like it.
Speaker 6: That was very I don't know if you happen to
Speaker 6: hear the a flea like baseline or something that was
Speaker 6: in the background there, but shook Us went through it like.
Speaker 3: That was flee. We actually paid him four hundred dollars
Speaker 3: to lay that down.
Speaker 4: Underneath that was a phone vibrating on the table.
Speaker 5: That's what that was.
Speaker 3: Suck. It's about the illusion, my friend. Yeah, show, I.
Speaker 6: Thought it was great. That was It was like C. J.
Speaker 6: Stroud ignoring the pressure in the pocket. I just want
Speaker 6: to say a shout out.
Speaker 5: I'm with you on where you put Tannehill.
Speaker 2: But just by the way, that was Nick Westling calling
Speaker 2: you angry about Joe Burrow.
Speaker 5: And also seeing I was right about Stroud.
Speaker 6: The Westlings were high on high on Stroud, but they're
Speaker 6: high on every Ohio state.
Speaker 4: Can we talk Tannehill real quick?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what I'm gonna call him now from
Speaker 4: now on Diet Kirk Cousins, because you know he's not
Speaker 4: as delicious as a classic Coca Cola. You know, he's
Speaker 4: more he just gets the job done. When you want
Speaker 4: the taste of coke, but you don't want the calories,
Speaker 4: they're all the sugar. That's Diet Kirk Cousins. Ryan Tannehill,
Speaker 4: who's been very up and down this year. When he
Speaker 4: has time to throw and they're able to build out
Speaker 4: of the run, you know, play action, he's good. Yeah,
Speaker 4: never gonna be great. When he doesn't have time to throw,
Speaker 4: he's a nightmare. It's a disaster so far.
Speaker 5: Like that Browns game.
Speaker 6: I actually when I rewatched, I was like, I don't
Speaker 6: put much of this on Tannehill. I actually think he
Speaker 6: played like okay in that game. He was a bit
Speaker 6: of a disaster week one, but he's been strong since.
Speaker 6: And I have a soft spot in my heart because
Speaker 6: QB in Decks started it was my first year at
Speaker 6: the NFL.
Speaker 5: I was still living in New York.
Speaker 6: Qban Decks started as a project to watch the great
Speaker 6: quarterback class of twenty twelve. Coaches film every week and
Speaker 6: rank them and just go through their games every week.
Speaker 6: So it was RG three, it was Luck, it was
Speaker 6: Russ who's still on this list. It was Tannehill, it
Speaker 6: was Brandon Whedon and then Nick Fole snuck in there
Speaker 6: with a couple starts in the mix too, and Tannehill.
Speaker 6: I really love him because I think he's really developed
Speaker 6: so much as a quarterback. Back then he was just
Speaker 6: sort of a guy who threw the ball straight in,
Speaker 6: a big, strong athlete and a barely played the position.
Speaker 6: And now here we are, how many seasons later, fourteen
Speaker 6: to twelve seasons later, and he's still kicking on this list.
Speaker 6: Russ is still kicking the columns, still kicking in much
Speaker 6: different form with a much bigger, stronger writer behind the
Speaker 6: helm is doing.
Speaker 5: Great job, good job shooking.
Speaker 4: Thanks guys, I appreciate you. That was real nice.
Speaker 3: Any other thoughts, gentlemen, Well, I think.
Speaker 7: Part of this exercise, because you're just people are just
Speaker 7: gonna look at the list that's it. They get all upset,
Speaker 7: they run around their farmstead or wherever they live. But
Speaker 7: like the actual it's thirty two like boiled down thick
Speaker 7: graphs on each player that come from a lot of
Speaker 7: film study. It take a lot of work goes behind it.
Speaker 7: You got to prove your point like you just did
Speaker 7: on Burrow, but you got to add a little spice
Speaker 7: to the writing. We got to know who Nick Shook
Speaker 7: is versus the last writer or the writer previous, or
Speaker 7: who cover comes next? And Shook I've read, I've read
Speaker 7: each one of these and I just want to say
Speaker 7: the writing and your like whimsical nature with some of
Speaker 7: the entries is part of the delight. So don't just
Speaker 7: look at the list, read the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Good reader, Well.
Speaker 4: Sad, that's a good sales pitch. I appreciate you.
Speaker 2: Well, so got it. He's just a kid from Akron.
Speaker 2: Don't change your Twitter photo.
Speaker 6: I mean, but at some point it's false advertising. You
Speaker 6: don't want to be one of those guys that's you know,
Speaker 6: got the like five year old picture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but look at look at his buy and look
Speaker 3: at anybody on the on the left sleeve.
Speaker 2: So he's interviewing who's the player he's interviewing there, it's
Speaker 2: Larryjobi okay Ogum Joey three teams ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Larry, you're interviewing a guy named Larry.
Speaker 2: And look on the left arm, the way the sleeve
Speaker 2: hugs the buy in the try. Now, do we want
Speaker 2: to if we want to get some people off your back,
Speaker 2: do you want to photoshop the browns helmet off, off
Speaker 2: the off the breastplate there. Sure you can do that,
Speaker 2: but I would not get away from the photo because
Speaker 2: it really checks a lot of boxes.
Speaker 3: Otherwise, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 4: I have a backpack that I got from the Browns
Speaker 4: when I still work for the team, and I've thought
Speaker 4: about sewing an NFL patch over it on multiple occasions.
Speaker 3: For this very reason, Shook never changed.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this, and we really did want to
Speaker 2: highlight the brain work you're doing and and the NFL
Speaker 2: QB indexicus who doesn't love chopping up the quarterbacks? And
Speaker 2: uh check out Shook on on Twitter at the Nick Shook.
Speaker 2: Uh hell check out his Twitch handle the Knick Shook.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and nim.
Speaker 6: Check him out in a big spot. While we're in
Speaker 6: London bringing that Sunday Night weeks six Recap Home with Patrick.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm glad that we can add more work to
Speaker 7: your plate. It sounds like you're not doing enough fixed,
Speaker 7: So good job.
Speaker 4: Thank you for giving me a platform to defend myself
Speaker 4: before they come out. It's the game day graphic. By
Speaker 4: the way, the NFL Game be account say, that's the one.
Speaker 4: That's the I'm still getting notifications on.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 2: And last but not least, check out Nick Shook every
Speaker 2: Sunday night on the Flagship podcast, where he does a
Speaker 2: great job helping us out with the game coverage.
Speaker 3: See you later, but all right, guys, see you all right,
Speaker 3: there goes Nick Shook again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, NFL dot com slash qb index read it every
Speaker 2: week and that is a bonus app of around the NFL,
Speaker 2: no cost.
Speaker 6: And a nice little part of ATN history here atn
Speaker 6: when it was a blog for a news thing, and
Speaker 6: we used to have a lot of QBNX arguments right
Speaker 6: here on this podcast.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a dynasty and it's in Shook's hands until
Speaker 2: next time.
Speaker 3: Hey, a call