Speaker 1: Wake that answer up in the morning the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2: Morning.
Speaker 3: Everybody is DJ Envy Charlamagne de Goud. We are to
Speaker 3: Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed,
Speaker 3: the director of the Anti Defamation lead, Jonathan Green Black.
Speaker 1: Welcome back, Good morning, DJ.
Speaker 3: How are you feeling this morning?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm glad I'm here. I'm glad I'm here.
Speaker 1: We've definitely got stuff to talk about.
Speaker 4: Man, what is going on in the world For people
Speaker 4: that don't know, don't understand what is going on in
Speaker 4: Israel and Gaza?
Speaker 2: What is happening?
Speaker 1: Look it is Uh, these are dark days. These are
Speaker 1: dark dark days. I would say that this last week
Speaker 1: has probably been the toughest week of my adult life.
Speaker 1: So last Friday night, around one thirty in the morning,
Speaker 1: I got a call from that of my Israel office,
Speaker 1: who lives in a town called Modeen, who said, you know,
Speaker 1: when the phone rings at one thirty in the morning,
Speaker 1: you know, I look at the phone and she said, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: there are hundreds, maybe thousands of rockets coming into Israel.
Speaker 1: She said, I don't know exactly what's going on, but
Speaker 1: you need to know something's up. And so then I
Speaker 1: called my other staff in Israel and was basically up
Speaker 1: all night trying to figure out what was going on.
Speaker 1: And then I would say it was around six in
Speaker 1: the morning that we started to get word here of
Speaker 1: what had actually happened. So it turned out that those
Speaker 1: rockets that were sent by Ramas into civilian targets in
Speaker 1: Israel were sort of a cover or a distraction for
Speaker 1: what was really happening, which was this terrorist infiltration and
Speaker 1: the massacres that took place up and down the Gaza
Speaker 1: border in all of these surrounding towns. And they were brutal,
Speaker 1: I mean the stories that are still coming out. More
Speaker 1: than thirteen hundred civilians not just killed, although they were,
Speaker 1: I mean it was a slaughter. It was a slaughter.
Speaker 4: But he said, the largest what are the largest number
Speaker 4: of Jewish people killed in one day since almost the Holocaust?
Speaker 1: Jesus, this is I think the largest terrorist active terrorism
Speaker 1: since nine to eleven. I think it's one of the
Speaker 1: largest acts of terrorism since the Second World War. And
Speaker 1: these people weren't just killed, I mean they were slaughtered.
Speaker 1: Don't I say slaughtered. They were raped, they were tortured,
Speaker 1: babies were burned in their cribs, children were executed in
Speaker 1: front of their parents. Parents were executed in front of
Speaker 1: their children. Elderly people were shot in the head at
Speaker 1: point blank range. And they didn't just kill Israeli Jews.
Speaker 1: Israeli Arabs were killed, Asian people who live and work
Speaker 1: in Israel. There were videos of Thai people being killed.
Speaker 1: I saw one man a video of one man being
Speaker 1: I mean, he's bloodied, he'd been brutalized, being beheaded with
Speaker 1: a shovel. Filipino workers were killed. A lot of people
Speaker 1: died at this music festival. There was a music festival,
Speaker 1: a piece festival, and these men came in on like
Speaker 1: mechanized hand gliders of some sort with automatic weapons and
Speaker 1: gunned down approximately two hundred and sixty young people. These
Speaker 1: are boys and girls and teenagers. Shot them in the back.
Speaker 1: Some of the people who'd come in on land were
Speaker 1: dressed as Israeli medics. They were in like uniforms, you know,
Speaker 1: and they were in the parking lot. Apparently they stationed
Speaker 1: themselves in the parking lot. So these men flew in
Speaker 1: and as I understand, the concert goers who filmed it
Speaker 1: on their phones, because these people were coming in, they
Speaker 1: thought it was part of the show. It's like a rave.
Speaker 1: They shot them, shot at them, and the people ran
Speaker 1: and they ran to the parking lot and there were
Speaker 1: medics there who they thought came into help, and then
Speaker 1: the medics took out their guns because they were actually
Speaker 1: these terrorists and killed them all. They burned people alive
Speaker 1: in their cars. And of course the people that they
Speaker 1: didn't kill, that they didn't maim, that they didn't mutilate.
Speaker 1: They raped a lot of the women before they killed them.
Speaker 1: There were stories about women who were shot in the
Speaker 1: legs so they couldn't run and then raped. Some of
Speaker 1: them were killed, but a number of them and others
Speaker 1: were then seized and brought into gaza. And so we
Speaker 1: know this because we have the footage. This is the thing.
Speaker 1: We have the footage of all of this because these
Speaker 1: people gleefully videoed it on their phones. The story that
Speaker 1: I heard about one girl who saw the video of
Speaker 1: her grandmother being killed because they came into her home.
Speaker 1: They had the grandmother, oh, give them her phone, open
Speaker 1: her phone, they video themselves killing the grandmother. Then they
Speaker 1: uploaded it to the YouTube chats or sorry, the WhatsApp
Speaker 1: chats on her phone. So that's how the grandmother saw
Speaker 1: her grandmother die in the family WhatsApp chat.
Speaker 2: Well, the grandmother saw her.
Speaker 1: The granddaughter, Sorry if I said it wrong. The granddaughter
Speaker 1: learned that her grandmother had been killed because these men
Speaker 1: uploaded the video into the into the family WhatsApp chat
Speaker 1: from the grandmother's phone. But they've seized a lot of
Speaker 1: these people and they've brought them into Gaza. And again
Speaker 1: we have the footage of all this. We have the
Speaker 1: footage of the murders. We have the footage of the torture,
Speaker 1: we have the footage of the beheadings. We have a
Speaker 1: footage of these people in Gaza like that. There's a
Speaker 1: number ofos you may have seen them. There's one video
Speaker 1: of a young woman battered and bleeding, forced out of
Speaker 1: a car, mocked by the crowd, and then lit on fire,
Speaker 1: set on fire in front of all of these people.
Speaker 1: There's a video, another video I've seen, of a young
Speaker 1: girl brought out of a car, bleeding from the crotch.
Speaker 1: I mean it's bloody, you know, and they're leading her
Speaker 1: through and they're chanting and hooping and hollering like she's
Speaker 1: some kind of I don't know, trophy or something. So
Speaker 1: I mean these things, these videos, like I can't get
Speaker 1: them out of my mind. Like, you know, we talk
Speaker 1: about what happened in Rwanda, we talk about what happened
Speaker 1: in Cambodia, we talk about what happened in the Holocaust,
Speaker 1: and these are like things over there, right, And I'm
Speaker 1: not minimizing them at all, but oftentimes these are incidents
Speaker 1: for which we don't have the live footage, and they
Speaker 1: it like it's hard for us to relate to them.
Speaker 2: You can see.
Speaker 4: It's like when they put the pictures of the Via
Speaker 4: No More on the papers back in the day.
Speaker 2: You can see it. You can actually see what's going on.
Speaker 1: And like these are I mean it's like live in
Speaker 1: color on your phone, real time. And again like the
Speaker 1: applauding of it and the apparent you know, grotesque macabre
Speaker 1: fun of it. For these people, it's just a kind
Speaker 1: of sadism that I mean, look, I know people who
Speaker 1: were killed. I just learned this morning driving in that
Speaker 1: my son's camp counselor. My son goes to a Jewish
Speaker 1: overnight camp. A lot of kids go to camp, and
Speaker 1: they have some Israelis who come in into the counselors.
Speaker 1: The counselor from his bunk had been missing since all
Speaker 1: this happened, meaning people knew he was down there and
Speaker 1: couldn't find him. And I learned this morning that they
Speaker 1: identified as corpse overnight. So I don't know if he
Speaker 1: was one of the people who was burned beyond recognition.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was one of the people
Speaker 1: who was beheaded, and so they didn't have an easy
Speaker 1: way to know who he was, but they just figured
Speaker 1: it out, you know, six days later.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you a question. So asking in friends
Speaker 3: and people tell me that the Israeli military is very strong. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and they also told me there's a lot of military
Speaker 3: and they also said that they have this technology that
Speaker 3: I believe that only the Israeli military in the United
Speaker 3: States has, where they can block missiles that come and
Speaker 3: it's like a high percentage rate of them block. And
Speaker 3: I think it's called the Iron Dome, the Iron Dome.
Speaker 3: So what happened to those strategies were none of that
Speaker 3: into play?
Speaker 1: Well, I think I don't know exactly, but here's what
Speaker 1: I think, MV. I think what happened was, Look, this was,
Speaker 1: first of all, we think about Hamas and I think
Speaker 1: clearly there were a lot of failures here. There were
Speaker 1: intelligence failures, a military failure, a technology failure, and a
Speaker 1: moral failure. And I'll talk about that a bit, but
Speaker 1: just on the military fit technology failure, I think that Look,
Speaker 1: the Comas is not some random group of guys, you know,
Speaker 1: showing up on Saturdays and doing like you know, cosplay.
Speaker 1: It's a highly trained military force that's been groomed over
Speaker 1: decades by the ir audience, armed trained all of that,
Speaker 1: and so I think what they did was they identified
Speaker 1: the Israeli like technology centers like the antenna and the
Speaker 1: different posts where they had the means by which they
Speaker 1: could surveil or detect, and they took them out and
Speaker 1: I think that inhibited the Israeli response. I also think
Speaker 1: that the Israelis did not believe they had the capability
Speaker 1: of launching missiles like that. But what we now know
Speaker 1: why because they've they filmed it. Hamas was you know,
Speaker 1: there's been a big water crisis in Gaza for years.
Speaker 1: To step back like Gaza is a is an impoverished,
Speaker 1: very tough place like our hearts should break for the
Speaker 1: people of Gaza right who live under a repressive Hamas regime,
Speaker 1: who have suffered greatly like we should. There's there's a
Speaker 1: there's a human dimension to this on that side that
Speaker 1: we you can't talk about this without talking about that
Speaker 1: who's faulted it? What's Haramas's fault? One hundred percent? Now
Speaker 1: I'll give you a good example of it. So the
Speaker 1: Israelis didn't think that they had the technology. And there's
Speaker 1: also been this water crisis for years, a lack of
Speaker 1: potable water, a lack of drinking water, terrible sewage problem.
Speaker 1: So it turns out, and now we know this because
Speaker 1: they filmed it, that Hamas has been taking the water
Speaker 1: pipes out of the ground, repurposing them in makeshift factories
Speaker 1: into missiles. So where did Hamas get thousands of missiles?
Speaker 2: They didn't.
Speaker 1: The Israelis would never prevent missile parts from going in,
Speaker 1: neither with the Egyptians. Where did they come from? They
Speaker 1: took the water pipes out of the ground, the water
Speaker 1: pipes that serve their population, that facilitate things like sewage
Speaker 1: and the passage of potable water, and they turn them
Speaker 1: into missiles. And again you can see the footage of this.
Speaker 1: So we say whose fault is it? Like it is
Speaker 1: reasonable to say that it would be I mean, Gaza
Speaker 1: does not need to be like this. It does not
Speaker 1: need to be the most densely placed, the most I
Speaker 1: don't know this is exactly most densely, but a highly densely,
Speaker 1: highly impoverished pocket. But the reason why it is that,
Speaker 1: the reason why it is in such bad straits is
Speaker 1: because of the Hamas that runs it, that took over
Speaker 1: in a coup d'tat in two thousand and five or
Speaker 1: maybe two thousand and seven. The Hamas that has not
Speaker 1: had an election in sixteen years, The Hamas that forces
Speaker 1: women to wear hijabs, The Hamas that hangs gay people
Speaker 1: or kills them. You know, there are no gay people
Speaker 1: in gods are at least open or out. The Hamas
Speaker 1: that doesn't allow the construction of churches or you know,
Speaker 1: other kind of means of worship for other people. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the reason why the situation is where it is.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying Israel doesn't have its problems. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying Israel shouldn't do more. I mean, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been here before, and I've been an active, active, fierce,
Speaker 1: ferocious advocate for a two state solution for years, and
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of criticism from some in my community,
Speaker 1: But I've always believed, I still believe as we sit
Speaker 1: here today, that you will never have a true and
Speaker 1: sustainable peace unless you have safety and security for Israelis
Speaker 1: and dignity and equality for Palestinians. That's what I believe.
Speaker 1: I don't think you can ever build walls that are
Speaker 1: high enough. I don't. However, like the war that is
Speaker 1: now being fought wasn't started by the Israelis, you know,
Speaker 1: And the way I would describe it is, you know,
Speaker 1: the IDF, the Israeli army, they are there. They use
Speaker 1: the army to protect their citizens. Kamas uses their citizens
Speaker 1: to protect themselves. They put missile launchers in hospitals, they
Speaker 1: put missile launchers in schools, they put guns and arms
Speaker 1: in mosques. They dig holes like for the tunnels inside
Speaker 1: people's home. So why do they do that. They do
Speaker 1: that because the Israelis abide by the conventions of the
Speaker 1: Geneva Convention and the rules of war, and you are
Speaker 1: not supposed to You are not supposed to bomb hospitals
Speaker 1: or schools or mosques. Now again, if you're launching missiles
Speaker 1: from it, it's a different story, and you're then implicating it.
Speaker 1: But that's the idea and that's why they do it,
Speaker 1: so they don't leave the Israelis with much choice, and
Speaker 1: using their own people as human shields, taking Israelis hundreds
Speaker 1: of people as hot stages, taking elderly people and children.
Speaker 1: I can show I will show you the videos.
Speaker 4: I think that's the saddest part, you know, looking at
Speaker 4: civilians in Israel, civilians in Palestine dying and being casualties
Speaker 4: are something that seems like it's way bigger than them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think this will be called the
Speaker 1: Hmas war. I think that's what this will be referred
Speaker 1: to as we look back on it, because again it
Speaker 1: is tragic when civilians are killed, but the ones who
Speaker 1: killed the Israelis, again, the grandchildren and the disabled people,
Speaker 1: were the Rahmas terrorists, and the people who are now
Speaker 1: killing the Gazans are Hamas terrorists. Because if the Kamas
Speaker 1: terrorists put these hostages out, if they just gave them back,
Speaker 1: the Israelis would have no pretext to do. It would
Speaker 1: be very difficult for the Israelis to do what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, israel Is retaliating, though.
Speaker 1: I would say they're responding defensive measure. And I say that,
Speaker 1: and I use that framing because again, this wouldn't have
Speaker 1: happened had they not gone in and butchered all these people.
Speaker 1: It just wouldn't have. And I think this is where
Speaker 1: you know, Envy, you asked appropriate, don't they have the
Speaker 1: Iron Dome and don't they have all this intelligence? And
Speaker 1: they do? And so I think there will be like
Speaker 1: forensics and after actions to try to understand how did
Speaker 1: this happen for years. But it's not just a military failure.
Speaker 1: It's not just an intelligence failure. It's a moral failure.
Speaker 1: Bil's hamas in its charter, which was written in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven, it says its goal is not a two
Speaker 1: state solution. It's to eradicate the zionisdentity. That's what it says.
Speaker 1: I actually brought it with me, you know, so I
Speaker 1: would have it so I could read it. In it
Speaker 1: says Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam
Speaker 1: will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
Speaker 1: So if you read the charter right, I mean it's
Speaker 1: off the wall. But I think the Israelis came to
Speaker 1: believe that they could find like a like a modus Vivendi,
Speaker 1: like they could find some kind of status quo and
Speaker 1: live with them. Yes, they hate us, but they'll stay
Speaker 1: there and we'll stay here. And I think that was wrong.
Speaker 1: And I'll also tell you that I think all of us,
Speaker 1: like me and American polity, Americs and others who figured,
Speaker 1: you know what, how bad could it be? They'll stay
Speaker 1: on their side. They'll learn to work it out. We
Speaker 1: were wrong. And when people tell you they want to
Speaker 1: kill you, you need to believe them. And when people
Speaker 1: tell you you're not a human being, you're a Zionist and
Speaker 1: you are committing genocide and you don't deserve to live,
Speaker 1: like we should know already, Like, listen to your enemies.
Speaker 1: Take them seriously. And and I don't think we took
Speaker 1: it seriously enough.
Speaker 3: Do you think this is start another World war?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think America sent that big aircraft
Speaker 1: carry over there as a warning to the Iranians. Look again,
Speaker 1: Hamas is funded by Iran, the Hamas government. They don't
Speaker 1: trade with other countries, they don't build industry. Seventy percent
Speaker 1: of their budget comes from Iran. So again, this is so,
Speaker 1: how does it happen that they are at war with
Speaker 1: their own people and polishing them at they're war with Israel.
Speaker 1: It's because they don't have any accountability so America, and
Speaker 1: so they're a proxy, They're a militia, they're like an
Speaker 1: extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, their army. Okay, So
Speaker 1: if Israel goes into Gaza, as they will, is that
Speaker 1: going to prompt other countries to get involved? I think
Speaker 1: America moved into aircraft carrier over there as assigned to
Speaker 1: the Iranians. Don't get involved. So I hope that that
Speaker 1: will deter the Iranians from doing anything. I mean, we've
Speaker 1: seen in the weeks since this happened, all the government
Speaker 1: in Europe, almost all the governments in the world, I think,
Speaker 1: have spoken out in support of Israel and condemned the massacre.
Speaker 2: But is say Putin wants to take advantage of.
Speaker 1: The I'm sure he does.
Speaker 4: Ahama's official even revealed the intent behind you so on
Speaker 4: Russian television.
Speaker 1: Is that right? I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: I thought I don't see it in yesterday.
Speaker 1: Look, it plays into Russia's hands. They want to distract
Speaker 1: the world from the savagery they're doing in Ukraine. Like
Speaker 1: I get it. They want the West to Fund divert
Speaker 1: money to Israel and not to Ukraine. I get it.
Speaker 1: They want the UN to be focused on Israel, not Ukraine.
Speaker 1: I get it. Like it works for Russia. But look,
Speaker 1: if God forbid, there's a world war, I mean God forbid,
Speaker 1: Iran gets involved and they shut down the Gulf, and
Speaker 1: then oil can't move, and then prices go up, and
Speaker 1: like the whole thing could spiral really quickly, really quickly.
Speaker 4: What is the difference between Palestine civilians in Palestine who
Speaker 4: might feel like who feel they're being oppressed by an
Speaker 4: Israeli government, what's the differ between them in helmath.
Speaker 1: It's a super good question. So let's step back right.
Speaker 1: So basically in that part of the world where there
Speaker 1: have been indigenous Jews and indigenous Muslims living forever for
Speaker 1: a long time, thousands of years. Nineteen forty eight, the
Speaker 1: United Nations, these people are skirmishing and fighting with each other.
Speaker 1: I want land. I want land. The British pull out.
Speaker 1: The United Nations says we're going to partition the land.
Speaker 1: One side for the Jews, one side for the Arabs.
Speaker 1: Now one thing I'll just note here the Jews, so
Speaker 1: Jews are both a religion and an ethnicity. Jews are
Speaker 1: from the ancient tribes of Judea, right, you read it
Speaker 1: in the Bible. That's who the Jews are. Now you
Speaker 1: can certainly convert to Judaism and not be of that
Speaker 1: ethnic stock. But it's a little confusing because we are
Speaker 1: both in ethnicity and we are a religion. Okay. So
Speaker 1: that being said, so the Jews in the area and
Speaker 1: the Arabs in the area, the Jews say, the Jews
Speaker 1: want all the land, the Arabs want all the land.
Speaker 1: They partition it did Jews say, okay, we'll take half.
Speaker 1: The Arabs say, we won't. We want it all. And
Speaker 1: so they go to war. They go to war against
Speaker 1: this little state, and that's Jordan and Egypt and Syria
Speaker 1: and Lebanon and Iraq, I think, and the israelis this
Speaker 1: new little country. In nineteen forty eight, they survive, and
Speaker 1: so that becomes Israel. Then in nineteen sixty seven, Syria
Speaker 1: and Egypt and Jordan go to war again against Israel.
Speaker 1: They attack Israel, and Israel wins. And when it wins,
Speaker 1: it pushes back on Jordan, which had a bunch of
Speaker 1: the land that the Arabs didn't want, or the Palisine.
Speaker 1: Arabs didn't accept, and so that they occupy that and
Speaker 1: that is called the West Bank. And then the Israelis
Speaker 1: also occupy part of the land the Egyptians came up from,
Speaker 1: and that's called Gaza. And the Israelis also occupy part
Speaker 1: of the land that Syria came in and attacked them from,
Speaker 1: and that it's called the Golan Heights. So now Israel,
Speaker 1: which is once this big, gets bigger, and they also
Speaker 1: occupy the Sinai that the Sinai area that Egypt also
Speaker 1: came in from. Okay, nineteen seventy three, the Arab's attack again,
Speaker 1: Israel repels them again, but they have all this land.
Speaker 1: Nineteen seventy eight, Israel makes peace with Egypt and they
Speaker 1: give them back the Sinai. Nineteen ninety three the Oslo Accords.
Speaker 1: The idea is Israel's going to make peace with the
Speaker 1: Palestinian authority, which is so let's step back nineteen sixty two. Remember,
Speaker 1: as I explained, there's a partition Israel. The Jews take
Speaker 1: half the land, the Arabs refuse. The Jews survive the
Speaker 1: land that was going to go to the Arabs, Jordan
Speaker 1: takes it, and Egypt takes it. So in nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 1: Israel repels Jordan and occupies that land, that land we
Speaker 1: call the West Bank. So in nineteen sixty two, in
Speaker 1: parallel to this, the PLO is formed to represent the
Speaker 1: policy people, the indigenous people who got you know who,
Speaker 1: the Arabs who didn't accept the deal in the first place.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety three the Oslo Accords, Israel makes peace
Speaker 1: with the Palestinian the PLO, and they become the Palasin Authority,
Speaker 1: the government in the West Bank. It's okay, you can
Speaker 1: have it. We'll work it out. And in Gaza too,
Speaker 1: and in Gaza too, And then in two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven there are elections in Gaza. Hamas wins the elections
Speaker 1: in Gaza'll talk about Hamasa one second, and the Palsian
Speaker 1: authority doesn't accept it. They fight and Ramas stage is
Speaker 1: a coup d'tat and basically wins. They won in the election.
Speaker 1: The PA didn't accept it, so they killed. They killed
Speaker 1: the Palestinian authority and they took over. That's in Gaza.
Speaker 1: Now Ramas Ramas is in a it's called the Muslim Brotherhood.
Speaker 1: It's an Islamic movement. It's got branches in different plays
Speaker 1: started in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood chapter if you will,
Speaker 1: in Gaza is called Hamas. Hamas is formed in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven. Hamas, like I said, wins the election in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. When they don't get power, they
Speaker 1: kill the palace. They fight and they kill the palse
Speaker 1: in authority and they take over. So it is and
Speaker 1: has been is recognized by the United States and the
Speaker 1: European Union, many governments as a terrorist organization. It's a government.
Speaker 1: Why because, as they say in their charter, it's called
Speaker 1: the Covenant of Ramas. They believe in violence and they
Speaker 1: don't believe in peace. This is literally what it says. Again,
Speaker 1: I can read it if you want. So they believe
Speaker 1: in the eradication of the Zionist entity. They don't refer
Speaker 1: to it as Israel. Typically they call it the Zionist
Speaker 1: entity because they don't want to recognize that Israel exists.
Speaker 1: So this terrorist group took over and this terrorist group
Speaker 1: governs Gaza. This terrorist group, again is a Muslim Brotherhood outfit.
Speaker 1: So they are a fairly oppressive regime, meaning that it's
Speaker 1: an Islamic state, meaning they don't allow other religions. They
Speaker 1: don't allow music, they don't allow dancing. It's a lot
Speaker 1: like the regime in Iran or what Isis wanted to
Speaker 1: build in Syria. So these are not people who are
Speaker 1: like liberal democrats. And these are not people who I
Speaker 1: think all of us could very easily relate to or
Speaker 1: and they would certainly have no interest in relating to me.
Speaker 1: So the ordinary Palcian people Charlemagne are just living there.
Speaker 1: They are not necessarily members of Hamas. Most policing people
Speaker 1: are not in the Hamas like military units. They're just
Speaker 1: moms and dads going to the grocery store.
Speaker 2: Who probably want a too state government.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the polling say is about what
Speaker 1: they want, but I think they probably just want to
Speaker 1: raise their kids and take a vacation like most of us. Nonetheless, yes,
Speaker 1: I will say that Hamas and the Iranians, so a
Speaker 1: lot of this is being pushed by Iran. We can
Speaker 1: talk about that. But Hamas again has brainwashed and tries
Speaker 1: to use propaganda to tell their people that they're at
Speaker 1: war with the Jews, not with Israel, by the way,
Speaker 1: with the Jews. So here's where it gets a little confusing.
Speaker 1: So Israel is a the Jewish State. It is a
Speaker 1: Jewish state. It was founded by Jewish people as a
Speaker 1: homeland for the Jewish people in the ancient land where
Speaker 1: the Jewish people have always lived. Not all of us. Again,
Speaker 1: we were thrown out and we've lived all over. Now
Speaker 1: there are Jews who don't live in the Jewish State
Speaker 1: like me, and millions of other people. Nonetheless, it's a
Speaker 1: Jewish state. So when Ramas says that we want to
Speaker 1: kill the Zionists, and when Ramas says it's the obligation,
Speaker 1: it says again, I'm reading from their charter Article seven.
Speaker 1: The day of judgment will not come until Moslems fight
Speaker 1: Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind
Speaker 1: rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out, oh, Maslem,
Speaker 1: there is a Jew hiding behind me, Come and kill him. So,
Speaker 1: as I read this, this is not about again Palestinian identity.
Speaker 1: This is not about dignity, equality of ordinary people. This
Speaker 1: is about killing Jews. Which is why the head of
Speaker 1: the of Hamas, who by the way, lives in Cutter.
Speaker 1: He doesn't live in Gaza, he doesn't live in the
Speaker 1: West Bank. He lives in Cutter in a villa that's
Speaker 1: where most of their leaders actually live. They don't live
Speaker 1: in Gaza, even though Hamas controls it, because their afraid
Speaker 1: the Israelis will get them, so they live in They
Speaker 1: live very posh lives, driving Mercedes Benzes in very nice
Speaker 1: digs in Doha. But he did a video earlier in
Speaker 1: the week and he called for a day of jihad today,
Speaker 1: a day of jihad, and said that again Muslims should
Speaker 1: go and kill Jews wherever they are, which is why
Speaker 1: in New York today there's a police presence in front
Speaker 1: of every synagogue and every school. Because what the Haramash
Speaker 1: Charter tells us, what the Haramas leadership tells us, is
Speaker 1: that all the Jews are targets. And I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just the reality. So Israelis do not say that all
Speaker 1: Palestinians are targets Jewish people. They're not my synagogue talking
Speaker 1: about muslim Not only do I talk about that, like
Speaker 1: if you remember, like this organization, the one that I run,
Speaker 1: eighty IL fights Islamophobia. I have criticized Israeli government for
Speaker 1: its policies toward Palestinians. I stood up in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: in November after the election, when Donald Trump not my
Speaker 1: cup of tea? Did this? You know? He was talking
Speaker 1: about a registering Muslims. Do you remember this? And I
Speaker 1: stood up in front of a crowd of people and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm the grandson of a Holocaust survivor. My
Speaker 1: grandfather lost everything, well if his family was slaughtered and exterminated.
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, as a proud Jew, if
Speaker 1: there is if you try to register Muslims, I'll be
Speaker 1: the first person to register myself as a Muslim because
Speaker 1: I think I think it was an atrocious idea, and
Speaker 1: I will fight anti Muslim bias with every fiber in
Speaker 1: my being. But there aren't Jewish people saying kill all
Speaker 1: the Muslims. And there certainly isn't it. The Jewish government,
Speaker 1: if you want to call it that in Israel is
Speaker 1: certainly not saying kill all Palestinians. And no one is
Speaker 1: saying that the appropriate response to what happened is to
Speaker 1: go to a Palestinian music concert and gun down their
Speaker 1: children and burn them in their cars. So the level
Speaker 1: of savagery here is just off the charts. The idea
Speaker 1: that somehow my our synagogue I'm in here in New
Speaker 1: York is a legitimate military target, Like do I need
Speaker 1: to say how insane that is?
Speaker 3: But if they are, if they're considered a terrorist group. Great,
Speaker 3: as what you said, when when the world sees a
Speaker 3: terrorist group, we usually go and try to find or
Speaker 3: get that terrorist group. Right, how come that hasn't been
Speaker 3: the same for this case or has it been?
Speaker 1: It's a really good question. Env So, yeah, Hamas is
Speaker 1: a foreign terrorist organization designated by the US State departments
Speaker 1: of the governments. And yet I would say that the
Speaker 1: Israelis don't assassinate, kidnap, arrest HAMAS figures around the world.
Speaker 1: They don't do that. Maybe they should? They don't.
Speaker 3: Could they usually do that for other quote unquote terrorists.
Speaker 1: Groups in the United States? Has the United Kingdom has
Speaker 1: for sure? Israelis don't do that. Maybe they should? I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Israeli, I mean the Hamas. Like you know that wall,
Speaker 1: the terror wall that's built in much of the West Bank.
Speaker 1: It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. The Israelis
Speaker 1: built it after Hamas did a wave of suicide bombings.
Speaker 1: If you remember this, they had people strap themselves with
Speaker 1: explosives and go into cafes and dance clubs and go
Speaker 1: on public buses and thousands of Israelis were killed in
Speaker 1: the nineties and that's why they did that. Sorry, it
Speaker 1: was the early two thousands of the nineties. Uh, but
Speaker 1: you know, no, Actually I'm wrong. It was the mid nineties,
Speaker 1: and it was in response to the Oslo Accords. It
Speaker 1: was in a response that push for a two state solution.
Speaker 1: Hamas doesn't want a two state solution. They don't they
Speaker 1: say it, they have demonstrated it. And again, when you
Speaker 1: butcher children, like when you behead babies, clearly you have
Speaker 1: reached a point where you do not think the other
Speaker 1: side are people. I mean, you do not think that Israelis,
Speaker 1: whether they call us Israelis or Zionists or Jews, all
Speaker 1: the same. You don't think they're people. You think they're animals.
Speaker 1: You think they're less than animals. We don't burn animals alive,
Speaker 1: we don't behead animals, we don't rape animals, we don't
Speaker 1: do that. And I think you can clearly see through
Speaker 1: their actions that they regard these they regard Jews as subhuman.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's also hard for us,
Speaker 1: and it's probably hard for your audience. Like, look, it's
Speaker 1: the year twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why is it still happen?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got electric cars, artificial intelligence, we've cracked the
Speaker 1: genome code, we're trying to address climate change. I mean,
Speaker 1: you don't think, you don't expect that there are people
Speaker 1: out there who are so brainwashed and are so suffused
Speaker 1: with hate. But you know, I wrote this book. I
Speaker 1: was on your show talking about my book it could
Speaker 1: happen here. And the point of the book it could
Speaker 1: happen here was what happens when hate goes to the unthinkable?
Speaker 1: And how can we stop it? Like, and the whole
Speaker 1: point of the book was when you use this hateful rhetoric,
Speaker 1: when you demonize people, when you dehumanize them, it creates
Speaker 1: a conditions in which genocide can happen. And so whis
Speaker 1: why we got to stop it. Why we speak out
Speaker 1: against hate when we see it anti semitism, anti black racism,
Speaker 1: anti you know, Hispanic xenophobia, you speak out against it,
Speaker 1: because if you don't speak out against hateful comments, it
Speaker 1: can you know, a sort of like what would you
Speaker 1: call like evolve or can move up the chain from
Speaker 1: comments to actions to systemic systemic policies to violence to
Speaker 1: genocide and when I wrote that two years ago. It
Speaker 1: was certainly based on things like the Holocaust, It was
Speaker 1: based on things like Rwanda. It was based on what
Speaker 1: I thought the world had learned. And yet here we are,
Speaker 1: you know, literally sifting through the rubble and counting the bodies,
Speaker 1: trying to identify the victims in a way which suggests
Speaker 1: we haven't learned the lessons at all.
Speaker 4: What would you say to people who say that because
Speaker 4: you said you've criticized the iss before, Sure have MSNBC
Speaker 4: I saw something yesterday said Israel's far right government fuel
Speaker 4: tensions with Hamas.
Speaker 1: So what would you say to look at Kamas wrote
Speaker 1: their charter in nineteen eighty seven. Nineteen eighty seven last year,
Speaker 1: the Israeli government was a coalition. It's a coalition government.
Speaker 1: They had Jews and Muslims in the government. They hadn't
Speaker 1: they had gay and straight and conservative and liberal. This
Speaker 1: government is certainly more conservative, more right wing than that one.
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is Hamas didn't change
Speaker 1: their charter when they were you know, Palestinian Arabs in
Speaker 1: the Israeli government. So I don't think it matters who's
Speaker 1: in the Israeli government. BB in Yahoo in the government Hamas,
Speaker 1: I don't think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see so I do. I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: do what they do regardless.
Speaker 1: Hamas is going to do what they do regardless. Hamas's
Speaker 1: charter hasn't changed. So it's certainly true that, like I
Speaker 1: have been, someone who's been pushed the Israeli government for
Speaker 1: years to negotiate with the Palestinian authority to try to
Speaker 1: find ways, try to explore, try to use their kind
Speaker 1: of political and moral imagination to find ways to bridge gaps.
Speaker 1: Because again I meant what I said before, but two
Speaker 1: state solution. But when the when I see no public
Speaker 1: demonstrations in the Arab capitals, when I see no words
Speaker 1: from the Palestinian leadership, when I see them in fact,
Speaker 1: celebrating and hooting and hollering and giving out candies, it
Speaker 1: feels like they don't want a two state solution. They
Speaker 1: want a final solution. And the final solution is the
Speaker 1: term that Hitler used to describe what he wanted for Europe,
Speaker 1: which was to exterminate all the Jews. And what we
Speaker 1: saw happen this weekend in Israel was an extermination of
Speaker 1: the Jews. And so for Jewish people like me who
Speaker 1: lived just two generations from genocide. Is this is you know,
Speaker 1: a book. This isn't some abstraction, This is reality.
Speaker 4: Is it true when they say that the far right
Speaker 4: government in Israel has escalated military occupations over Palestinians in
Speaker 4: the name of Jewish supremacy.
Speaker 1: Look, so a couple of things. First, there's gods in
Speaker 1: the West Bank. So let's break it down what the
Speaker 1: difference is. So, first you have the West Bank. The
Speaker 1: west Bank is the area that's controlled by the Palestinian authority.
Speaker 1: There is a strong as military presence. They're still in
Speaker 1: parts of it. There's area there are different areas, they're
Speaker 1: designated areas A, B, and C. There are parts of
Speaker 1: the west Bank that Israel doesn't go in at all.
Speaker 1: There are parts that are totally controlled by the PA.
Speaker 1: There are parts that are controlled by the Israelis. And
Speaker 1: it's true that the net and Yahoo government has allowed
Speaker 1: for the building of settlements and parts of those area
Speaker 1: that are infuriating to Palestinians because they can't build the
Speaker 1: same way. And again, hopefully when there is a two
Speaker 1: state solution or there is some motor of peace like
Speaker 1: that area is going to be controlled by the Palestinians,
Speaker 1: so they can live with dignity and equality. So there's
Speaker 1: no question that policies of the current government in Israel
Speaker 1: have done nothing to strengthen the opportunity for peace in
Speaker 1: that part of the land. Then there's Gaza, Gaza that
Speaker 1: Hamas controls. Gaza, Israelis withdrew from in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: The Israelis used to have settlements there. They used to
Speaker 1: be Idf presence there. They're gone. Like when I say
Speaker 1: they're gone, there isn't a single Israeli in that ship
Speaker 1: of land, not one zero. That's part of why there
Speaker 1: was this intelligence fail because no Israelis there. The Israelis
Speaker 1: do control the borders into Gaza, as does Egypt. So
Speaker 1: Gaza is bordered by Israel and Egypt. So now it's
Speaker 1: true again the Israelis control the flow of things into Gaza,
Speaker 1: like cement and supplies. Why do they do that because
Speaker 1: there are that the Kamas will use cement and supplies
Speaker 1: to build arms. Turns out that's true, but they control that,
Speaker 1: so do the Egyptians. Again, it's not just the Israelis,
Speaker 1: it's the Egyptians too. But this far right government, the
Speaker 1: BB government has continued to supply electricity to allow supplies
Speaker 1: to flow, and they have allowed for permits for Palestinian
Speaker 1: workers to come into Israel. Like I don't know if
Speaker 1: you know this or not, but Palestinian workers come into
Speaker 1: Israel from Gaza every single day, thousands of them. And
Speaker 1: they do this in order to allow these people to
Speaker 1: make money and have a decent living.
Speaker 4: Well, they say, they say, the BB government. You know,
Speaker 4: they do home demolitis and violent expulsions of people in
Speaker 4: math killings and military raids on refugee camps. And I
Speaker 4: hear people trying to use that at the justification for
Speaker 4: what happened, which I think is they're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's no justification for raping women, butchering children period.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: So what happens in the West Bank, they do do
Speaker 1: home demolitions of a home where it's someone who goes
Speaker 1: in and commits a terrorist act. They do that. They
Speaker 1: do that. They don't do mass killings. That's just not true.
Speaker 1: That isn't true at all. Now, they may go into
Speaker 1: arrest and kill someone who is a terrorist who's committed
Speaker 1: an act against Israeli civilians. They do do that, for sure,
Speaker 1: But these things aren't true, and they don't do anything
Speaker 1: in Gaza, so it's hard to It feels like victim blaming.
Speaker 1: It feels like saying, you know, oh, it's the Jews.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm seeing this people saying it's Israel's fault
Speaker 1: that their people were murdered, it's Israel's fault that their
Speaker 1: children were kidnapped. And I just think victim blaming is disgusting.
Speaker 1: It's despicable, especially while we're still burying the bodies.
Speaker 2: And history less hamas, like, just read it.
Speaker 1: Like it's right here. They're not hiding it, like, you know,
Speaker 1: good for them, Good for them for not hiding it,
Speaker 1: Good for them for making sure we all understand. But
Speaker 1: bad on us for not taking it more serious.
Speaker 3: You think the US is doing enough?
Speaker 1: No, what do you think that? I mean? I will
Speaker 1: say President Biden's words were strong, and they were meaningful,
Speaker 1: and they were important, and I think that the other
Speaker 1: European countries have been good. And I think, by the way,
Speaker 1: like in Congress, you know, I think I'm not always
Speaker 1: a fan of some of these politicians, but I think
Speaker 1: both on the right and the left, they've gotten it right.
Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders said he thinks Israel seeds on gods is
Speaker 4: a serious violation of international law.
Speaker 1: Well, look, I would say to Bernie as soon as
Speaker 1: the I mean, I don't know what Bernie said in
Speaker 1: response to the savagery that happened. I don't know. I'm sure,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I would think he criticized it.
Speaker 2: I hope so.
Speaker 1: But I think there's a way to end this. What
Speaker 1: did he call it this?
Speaker 4: He said, it's a serious violation of Israel seeds on siege.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think number one Bernie Sanders should use
Speaker 1: every time he talks about Israel, shoud talk about Egypt
Speaker 1: because Egypt barricades blockades that place too. By the way,
Speaker 1: why does Egypt Because they don't want Hamas terrorists in
Speaker 1: Egypt either. But number two Bernie Sanders should instead of criticizing,
Speaker 1: he should propose, how do we end this? Agent guys
Speaker 1: that give all the hostages. Let all the hostages out.
Speaker 1: Hamas announced they're ready for peace negotiations with Israel and
Speaker 1: ready to accept its existence. That would end this like that.
Speaker 1: But if they're not willing to do that, I don't
Speaker 1: know what he thinks the Israeli should do. Does he
Speaker 1: think that the Israelis So if he doesn't think the
Speaker 1: Israeli should cut off the supplies, what does he think
Speaker 1: they should do? Does he think they should go find
Speaker 1: a Palestinian concert and rape their children? Does he think
Speaker 1: that the Israeli should the Palestinian terrorists? I shouldn't say Palestinian,
Speaker 1: the Hamas terrorists. The Hamas terrorists went into these towns
Speaker 1: and went house to house and murdered entire families. We
Speaker 1: have the videos. So you think you said the Israelis
Speaker 1: call house to house in God and murder entire families.
Speaker 1: Of course not. Should the Israelis go in find some
Speaker 1: Israeli find good luck finding a music concert in Gaza
Speaker 1: since they don't allow it. But should the Israelis go
Speaker 1: murder teenagers? Of course not? Like So, what the Israelis
Speaker 1: need to do is to create pressure to get Hamas
Speaker 1: to release the hostages and to realize they have to
Speaker 1: live with their Jewish neighbors.
Speaker 3: So you said the US should do more?
Speaker 1: What could the US could do? So? I would like
Speaker 1: right now to make sure if Hamas is a foreign
Speaker 1: terrorist organization like you were asking Envy, like there should
Speaker 1: we shouldn't allow people to provide supplies or support for
Speaker 1: Hamas we should give We should pressure Cutter where these
Speaker 1: people are living, all the leadership to extradite those people
Speaker 1: to Israel so they can stand trial for their crimes.
Speaker 1: We have a big military base and Cutter their quote
Speaker 1: unquote an Ally, there are also Hamas leadership in Turkey.
Speaker 1: We should pressure our allies in Turkey to have those
Speaker 1: people stand trial. We should make sure that there's not
Speaker 1: a single sent from anywhere and that goes to Hamas coffers.
Speaker 1: And finally, Iran. We need to be a lot tougher
Speaker 1: on Iran because Iran, if you cut off Iran and
Speaker 1: you cut off the flow of money, it would force
Speaker 1: Kamas to realize they have to work with their neighbors,
Speaker 1: you know, and can't try to mutilate and murder them.
Speaker 1: So I think I'd like to see our country do
Speaker 1: more to quell the flow of money and arms and
Speaker 1: ideas from Iran to Ramas.
Speaker 2: I got a couple more questions.
Speaker 4: You know, they've been putting this thing out on social
Speaker 4: media where it says sixty four hundred Palaceinians and three
Speaker 4: hundred Israelis have been killed, not counting the recent fatalities
Speaker 4: have been killed since two thousand and eight. Who's responsible
Speaker 4: for that? Is that Hamas? Is that Israeli government? Like,
Speaker 4: who's responsible for that?
Speaker 1: Well, look, it's hard for me to talk in the abstract,
Speaker 1: but like, this isn't a game. This isn't like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're scoring points here, right, Like, I don't think we
Speaker 1: can think about this as if it's something we're watching
Speaker 1: on ESPN. Well, who scored more points?
Speaker 2: That's true, I.
Speaker 1: Mean that just isn't a construct that applies here. It's
Speaker 1: not about the number of people who have been killed. Although,
Speaker 1: just so we're clear, the death of any innocent person
Speaker 1: is a tragedy. Like the death of any innocent person,
Speaker 1: any child, a child in Gaza, a child in you know,
Speaker 1: still Row. I mean, these are tragedies, but there is
Speaker 1: something qualitatively and just like obviously different than again, a
Speaker 1: terrorist with a machine gun shooting at families, right, and
Speaker 1: again the grandmother who was burned alive in her house
Speaker 1: because she was too weak to leave. They burned her
Speaker 1: alive in her house because she was too difficult to kidnap,
Speaker 1: and they filmed it. So like, again, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's about scoring points. I think it's about recognizing the
Speaker 1: dignity of every human life and approaching it on that.
Speaker 4: Bas I'm glad you said that because I'm sitting here
Speaker 4: trying to figure out, why do you think, whether you're
Speaker 4: pro Israel, pro Palestine, why do you think people try
Speaker 4: to justify these attacks and people losing?
Speaker 1: Well, look, we should talk about that because there have
Speaker 1: been rallies here in the US that are pro Hamas,
Speaker 1: like the the BLM chapter in Chicago and in LA.
Speaker 1: Did you see like glorifying these people and saying all
Speaker 1: these things that, oh, the resistance and this and decolonization
Speaker 1: if you think decolonization requires you to like sodomize the elderly,
Speaker 1: like there's a special place in hell for you. So
Speaker 1: I like, and I'm someone who stood up and said
Speaker 1: black lives matter, I said it on your show, Like
Speaker 1: I believe in these I think, like, why are we
Speaker 1: even talking about these are basic principles that like, of
Speaker 1: course our lives are created equals. Of course there is
Speaker 1: systemic discrimination against Black Americans. And if you don't understand that,
Speaker 1: you're not looking at the data and you're like divorced
Speaker 1: from reality, but pushing for equality and justice for black people,
Speaker 1: pushing for you know, reform of a criminal, like an
Speaker 1: incarceration industrial complex pushing for you know, the ability of
Speaker 1: every American of access to vote however they want. Has
Speaker 1: nothing to do, no relationship whatsoever to again, the savagery
Speaker 1: that we saw in Israel and the people who conflate
Speaker 1: the two who say, well, this is what decolonization looks like.
Speaker 1: Like again, I'm sorry, but the level of moral degeneracy
Speaker 1: there is off the fucking charts, use my language. And
Speaker 1: so that's like I'm.
Speaker 2: Having a bit.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm having a big problem with this. Maybe
Speaker 1: you guys can help me, Like I can't. I can't
Speaker 1: stand up there and say support Black Lives Matter when
Speaker 1: they support the genocide of Jews, Like, how do you
Speaker 1: guys deal with this?
Speaker 4: Well, I would tell you that was one chapter black
Speaker 4: Lives Matter Chicago don't think.
Speaker 1: That, of course not, of course not.
Speaker 4: I don't know if the whole I don't know if
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter National has spoken out against that yet.
Speaker 2: I haven't. I don't know yet, but I definitely don't.
Speaker 2: I think that's just one chapter.
Speaker 1: You got to look it up, because like the Movement
Speaker 1: for Black Lives which I think is the kind of
Speaker 1: umbrella group, has also talked about actually, can you send
Speaker 1: that to me? Dan? What did the Movement for Black
Speaker 1: Lives say? Can you pull it up?
Speaker 3: Do you know Jonathan has to leave soon? Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: I just had a question to you know, on social media.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're you're on social media as much,
Speaker 3: but you see some of the big conversations with celebrities
Speaker 3: not mentioning it, and wanted to know what your thought
Speaker 3: about it when they mentioned Drake or they mentioned DJ Khalett,
Speaker 3: who's kalid As Palestinian and Drake is.
Speaker 1: Jewish as well.
Speaker 3: So when you see celebrities talking about it, how do
Speaker 3: you feel about it?
Speaker 1: I feel sad. I feel alone, Like celebrities didn't hesitate
Speaker 1: to say black lives matter, and they should, like just
Speaker 1: so we're clear after the death of George Floyd, of
Speaker 1: course they should. And you know, celebrities ran to talk
Speaker 1: about and influencers and people like, I don't know exactly
Speaker 1: what Drake or DJ college said.
Speaker 2: They didn't say anything. People saying that they never do would.
Speaker 1: Yes, So like I don't. I don't want to pick
Speaker 1: on them in particular.
Speaker 3: Celebrities in total, because they it's hard.
Speaker 1: I mean, as a Jewish person, when you see when
Speaker 1: you look, I've stood for Black Lives matter. I fought,
Speaker 1: you know, I fought to stop Asian hate. We launched
Speaker 1: the Asian American Visition. For goodness sakes, I'm I you know.
Speaker 1: I co chaired the sixteen versus that march on Washington
Speaker 1: with Wherever now a few weeks ago, and I have
Speaker 1: proudly stood and we'll continue to with the NBA and
Speaker 1: the Urban League and LDF and all these groups. These
Speaker 1: are my friends, and their cause is just, and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to stop. But like the Movement for Black
Speaker 1: Lives the talk that justifies the genocide of Jews that
Speaker 1: says Zionism is racism, anti Zionism isn't just anti Semitism.
Speaker 1: I use to say that. I used to say anti
Speaker 1: Zionism is anti Semitism because dehumanizing Jews, right, or saying
Speaker 1: I love the Jewish people. It's just a Jewish state
Speaker 1: that's illegitimate and needs to be destroyed. So I've said
Speaker 1: for years anti Zionism is anti Semitism, But anti zionem
Speaker 1: is actually genocide. It's an argument to savagely rape and
Speaker 1: mutilate and murder people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like who can be so I don't understand. I
Speaker 1: truly don't understand how you can say you're an anti
Speaker 1: racist and an anti Zionist in the same breath. Anti
Speaker 1: Zionism is anti humanism. And just so we're clear, Zionism
Speaker 1: is the idea that the Jewish people should have the
Speaker 1: right to self determination in that piece of land. It
Speaker 1: does not exclude Palestinians in that it doesn't say anything
Speaker 1: like the Hamases Charter, that's all. And that's how you
Speaker 1: get Arab Israelis and Israeli Muslims and Israeli Christians in
Speaker 1: the government survey in the IDF, And that's how you
Speaker 1: get Ethiopian Israelis and Yemeny Israelis and people from all
Speaker 1: ethnicities and walks of life in the country treated as equals.
Speaker 1: Now is their discrimination in Israel? Sure, there is absolutely,
Speaker 1: And could Israel? Does Israel have to work to make
Speaker 1: itself more perfect so that all people, regardless of their religion,
Speaker 1: of their ethnic origin, are treated exactly the same, of course,
Speaker 1: And yet it's the only democracy in the region, it's
Speaker 1: the only place where LGBTQ people feel safe. It's the
Speaker 1: only place where you can have these sort of interfaith families.
Speaker 1: Look and while there are, there have been and will
Speaker 1: continue to be. You know, Palestinian Muslims in the Israeli government.
Speaker 1: You think there any Jewish people in the Iranian government?
Speaker 1: I mean, again, they're not democracies with coalitions, let's just
Speaker 1: acknowledge it. But do you think there's any like a
Speaker 1: Jewish minister in the Algerian government? And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that to make fun. I mean, there's a thousand year
Speaker 1: history of Jews in Algeria. There's a I think three
Speaker 1: thousand year history of Jews in Iran. But the rights
Speaker 1: that people are affwarded in Israel is just qualitatively different.
Speaker 1: That's because Zionism is not an ethno nationalist exclusive idea,
Speaker 1: but anti Zionism. That justifies again, shooting teenagers in the
Speaker 1: back while they flee. I mean, that is barbaric, that
Speaker 1: is sadistic, and it's just plain wrong.
Speaker 2: All Right, there you have it.
Speaker 3: The director of the Anti Defamation League, Jonathan green Black,
Speaker 3: thank you.
Speaker 1: For Can I just say one other thing, of course,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you for giving me the
Speaker 1: chance to talk about this. And it's hard like you're Jewish,
Speaker 1: like this is the week when you should be reaching
Speaker 1: out to your Jewish friends. You're Jewish colleagues. Like all
Speaker 1: of us have family in Israel, all of us have
Speaker 1: friends in Israel, all of us have people over there.
Speaker 1: And even if you have someone of you who doesn't say, well,
Speaker 1: I know anyone in Israel, if you're Jewish, you're a
Speaker 1: target today on the global Day of Jihad. So I
Speaker 1: would say this to everybody watching or listening, like this
Speaker 1: is a time to like reach out to people and say, hey,
Speaker 1: we got your back, We're there for you, because, like
Speaker 1: I can tell you this too, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: stop speaking out for the rights of my black brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters. I'm not going to stop speaking out against
Speaker 1: anti black racism. I'm not going to stop speaking out
Speaker 1: against other forms of hate. So you guys and your
Speaker 1: audience being there for your Jewish brothers and sisters, you
Speaker 1: guys being there and speaking out against anti Semitism and
Speaker 1: anti Zionism, like this is the day, this is the
Speaker 1: moment to do it, because this is when it really matters, all.
Speaker 3: Right, Jonathan Green Black, it's the Breakfast Club. Good morning,
Speaker 3: Thank you guys, wake that answer up in the morning
Speaker 3: for Breakfast Club