Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: This is Talk Easy. I'm standing Forgoso. Welcome to the
Speaker 2: show today. I'm joined by singer songwriter wise Blood. About
Speaker 2: a year ago, she released her fifth record, entitled and
Speaker 2: in the Darkness Heart to Glow. It came out through
Speaker 2: the label Subpop. It's a second installment in her Foreboding trilogy,
Speaker 2: which began back in twenty nineteen with her hit album
Speaker 2: Titanic Rising. If that record waded through feelings of impending doom,
Speaker 2: Hearts of Glow seems to be set in the aftermath
Speaker 2: of catastrophe, when there's friction in the world. She said
Speaker 2: in this conversation, that's when the songs come out. And
Speaker 2: so with that guiding statement in mind, I thought it
Speaker 2: would be a good time to sit with wise Blood
Speaker 2: and discuss her prescient music, which she's been performing around
Speaker 2: the globe over the past year. We also discussed growing
Speaker 2: up in a household of Christianity and rock and roll,
Speaker 2: the influence of Nico and Sonic Youth, and how she
Speaker 2: charted her course in what seems to be a precarious,
Speaker 2: ever changing music industry. In a kind of prologue for
Speaker 2: this new record, she wrote that these songs, some of
Speaker 2: which you are about to hear, attempt to find meaning
Speaker 2: in a time of instability and irrevocable change, looking for embers,
Speaker 2: She wrote where fire used to Be, And those lines
Speaker 2: have stayed with me this past week and it felt
Speaker 2: like that's exactly what we need today and in the
Speaker 2: weeks ahead. So I hope you enjoyed this special conversation.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy the music, whether you've heard it
Speaker 2: before or it's the first time. Natalie, who goes of
Speaker 2: course by wise Blood, is one of my favorite living musicians,
Speaker 2: trying to make music about this moment, which is confusing
Speaker 2: and difficult and painful, and yet her work continues to
Speaker 2: meet the moment in ways few other musicians do. That's
Speaker 2: all coming up next with our guests wise Blood.
Speaker 3: Hey, Natalie, Hi Sam.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How do you feel being here?
Speaker 3: I feel very lucky. I love your podcast and you've
Speaker 3: had so many incredible guests, and to be one of
Speaker 3: them feels like a privilege. And I also have the
Speaker 3: privilege of knowing you as a friend.
Speaker 1: Is that a privilege? Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, You're a great joy to have around, really
Speaker 3: light up a room.
Speaker 1: It's weird because we don't often have people on that
Speaker 1: I know in a social capacity. But I've been wanting
Speaker 1: to do this for a while and I'm just going
Speaker 1: to break the rule. So let's jump in your record
Speaker 1: and in the darkness. Hard to Glow came out about
Speaker 1: a year ago, and you just finished this American leg
Speaker 1: of the tour ending at the Greek, which I have
Speaker 1: to tell you was so surreal to watch the other
Speaker 1: night that felt like a religious experience. You were even
Speaker 1: dressed and all white, you talked about your mom. Everything
Speaker 1: felt like it was coming together in that moment. Are
Speaker 1: there still parts of performing it that you enjoy at
Speaker 1: this point because you've done it so much?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean I feel like that might have
Speaker 3: been like our eighty seventh show or something for me.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It kind of evolves and it gets
Speaker 3: more exciting the more we can kind of fine tune
Speaker 3: it and like get into the alchemical process of the show,
Speaker 3: like the lights and like the cues and playing that
Speaker 3: many shows, Yeah, there might be a couple of nights
Speaker 3: where it feels like you're going through the motions, but
Speaker 3: things do tend to evolve, and my experience of the
Speaker 3: shows has evolved, and playing in such an incredible venue
Speaker 3: like that felt very unique and different, and like for me,
Speaker 3: I was kind of hearing some of the songs for
Speaker 3: the first time. But I've had to trick myself into
Speaker 3: that kind of state of radical acceptance where I'm just like,
Speaker 3: all right, here's another one, and like I'm gonna have
Speaker 3: to make it new.
Speaker 1: You know, before you go on stage, are you told like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what city are we in again? Let me just make
Speaker 1: sure I get the city right.
Speaker 3: I've definitely been in Indianapolis and been like, How's what's
Speaker 3: the most haunted building in Minneapolis? You know, like, I've
Speaker 3: made some really big.
Speaker 1: Mistakes and how did you recover by.
Speaker 3: Telling everybody that I was raw dogging ADHD and that
Speaker 3: I didn't have meds and this is just me and
Speaker 3: it's not personal.
Speaker 1: That's good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not personal.
Speaker 1: I mean when you're doing eighty seven shows, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: hard to make it personal. And yet the other night
Speaker 1: really did feel I don't know, present in a way.
Speaker 1: It really felt different. I couldn't quite pinpoint. I wonder
Speaker 1: if you felt some of that I did.
Speaker 3: I think it's such a big moment for me to
Speaker 3: have a big homecoming show because I'm from Los Angeles
Speaker 3: and I've played the Greek before opening up for Father
Speaker 3: John Misty, and I've seen a lot of great shows there,
Speaker 3: so it was like all those men, and it did
Speaker 3: feel a bit like pagan time travel, like I was
Speaker 3: kind of skating through the past and knowing that my
Speaker 3: mom was there, and I mean, I might as well
Speaker 3: tell the story because it's such a cute story. But
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy one, my mom's older sister had this
Speaker 3: guy that wanted to take her on a date, but
Speaker 3: she was babysitting my eleven year old mother and he
Speaker 3: was like, well, let's just go to Griffith Park and
Speaker 3: we can hike up in the trees and watch some
Speaker 3: of the show at the Greek. And he took her
Speaker 3: up simpler times. Yeah, he bought her an ice cream
Speaker 3: and he took her up into this tree and they
Speaker 3: watched Carol King from one of the trees behind the Greek,
Speaker 3: just like so insane and so, I don't know, playing
Speaker 3: the Greek in front of my mother, who was in
Speaker 3: the audience just felt like a big full circle in
Speaker 3: a beautiful.
Speaker 1: Way, especially since you're compared to Carol King like once
Speaker 1: every thirty minutes.
Speaker 3: I says two nice, too nice.
Speaker 1: There was something special also about listening to songs made
Speaker 1: in the pandemic, in many ways, about the alienation of
Speaker 1: the pandemic in a crowd of strangers. I know this
Speaker 1: is the second album in this trilogy that you're making.
Speaker 1: With the song, it's not just me, it's everybody. You've
Speaker 1: called it the thesis of the record before we take
Speaker 1: a listen to it. How would you articulate that thesis now?
Speaker 3: I think that song is kind of like a Buddhist
Speaker 3: anthem in some ways, and that it's it's talking about
Speaker 3: the interconnectivity of all beings, like even down to like
Speaker 3: transspecies level, you know. But I think ultimately what it
Speaker 3: means to me now is just that for a long time,
Speaker 3: especially while I was making Titanic Rising, I kind of
Speaker 3: felt like I was sounding the alarm on you know,
Speaker 3: how wonky everything was, and I thought I was kind
Speaker 3: of you know, like the canary and the coal mine.
Speaker 3: And then over the course of the pandemic, it was
Speaker 3: like the peel had just been peeled off, and all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, everybody was feeling it. You know, nobody
Speaker 3: could deny climate change anymore. Nobody could deny how isolating
Speaker 3: technology had become. It was just common knowledge. And I
Speaker 3: think before, you know, people were kind of kidding themselves,
Speaker 3: thinking everything was pretty average or status quo. And I
Speaker 3: think that that really uncovered a lot of truth in
Speaker 3: terms of everybody feeling this way. And now it's just
Speaker 3: mainstream to feel that way.
Speaker 1: It's not anymore.
Speaker 3: It's not alternative anymore, I'll tell you that much. It's
Speaker 3: like mainstream to be like, oh, modernity is so hectic,
Speaker 3: you know. And it just blows my mind to watch
Speaker 3: the blossoming of like everybody kind of waking up to
Speaker 3: this truth of how dystopian you know the mono? How
Speaker 3: does topian the monod No, I can't say, do you
Speaker 3: want me how Dystopian the monoon?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I can't say leave that all in does leave Natalie
Speaker 1: taking three attempts at it? Do you want to go
Speaker 1: for the third try?
Speaker 3: No, I'll just say, how dystopian the world has become? Yeah, No,
Speaker 3: I think it's something that everybody feels. It's become common knowledge,
Speaker 3: and it is important, I think for us all to
Speaker 3: understand that we're going through it together.
Speaker 1: Well, here's a song about being in the thick of
Speaker 1: it going through it together. This is it's not just me,
Speaker 1: it's everybody by wise Blood.
Speaker 5: Sitting at this poverty wondering.
Speaker 6: If anyone ass me.
Speaker 3: Lysses, who.
Speaker 5: Oh, it's been so long since I've.
Speaker 3: Really no.
Speaker 5: Fragile in the.
Speaker 7: Morning can hold on much of it with this.
Speaker 8: All in.
Speaker 1: The opening line of that song is sitting at this party,
Speaker 1: wondering if anyone knows me? And I was thinking like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's kind of how we met the first time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you said once that you like to write songs at
Speaker 1: parties because quote, I feel so physically uncomfortable at them,
Speaker 1: and that discomfort is such a big part of my thing,
Speaker 1: gently tapping into the world, getting what I need, and
Speaker 1: then getting out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's just like any
Speaker 3: kind of gathering of humanity and all the causal things
Speaker 3: that happened with a bunch of people in a room together,
Speaker 3: and also just like the culture, you know, kind of
Speaker 3: presenting itself in whatever state it is. I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's a great place to observe and really up with
Speaker 3: ideas and have an exchange. And yeah, I do think
Speaker 3: that more recently, for the first time, I did kind
Speaker 3: of experience that physical discomfort at parties, which was something
Speaker 3: that was kind of, yeah, like a new experience of
Speaker 3: being like, wow, I actually just feel so radically unable
Speaker 3: to like put on a mask and like play this game,
Speaker 3: Like I just have to be real, and I just
Speaker 3: know that that's not like what everybody's ready for, and
Speaker 3: maybe it is also like the place we live and
Speaker 3: the kind of parties we've been to. It was almost
Speaker 3: like the lid blew off of my own personal performance
Speaker 3: as a human who just kind of going around and
Speaker 3: being like, oh, this is socially acceptable and this is
Speaker 3: how I'll present and then having that just be blown
Speaker 3: to smithereens and kind of feeling like there was more
Speaker 3: to be said and more to be uncovered.
Speaker 1: When did that shift happen?
Speaker 3: I think I think for a long time I was
Speaker 3: so distracted with music and just trying to kind of
Speaker 3: establish myself as a songwriter that I think once I did,
Speaker 3: and once I finally started touring and kind of having
Speaker 3: consistent work and being recognized for my music, I had
Speaker 3: a huge identity crisis because so much of my identity
Speaker 3: was kind of wrapped up in being anonymous and that
Speaker 3: nobody knew who I was. I had a lot of
Speaker 3: kind of secret strength and power from the privacy of that,
Speaker 3: and also from you know, when you're not successful and
Speaker 3: no work is really coming your way, you just kind
Speaker 3: of have all the time in the world to write
Speaker 3: and just kind of hide and nobody's really asking much
Speaker 3: of you because they don't want anything from you. So
Speaker 3: in some ways, that first line of that song wondering
Speaker 3: if anybody knows me, it's like, yeah, no, people know me.
Speaker 3: It's more like how well do people know me? Like
Speaker 3: it becomes a question of like does this person really
Speaker 3: know me or do they think they know me or something?
Speaker 3: So I think, yeah, once I became known publicly, that's
Speaker 3: actually when I started to get really anxious around people,
Speaker 3: because it was like I felt everything was different and
Speaker 3: my identity of being kind of a nobody was stripped
Speaker 3: of me, and I had a lot of safety and
Speaker 3: comfort in that.
Speaker 1: Should we go back to that time when you were anonymous. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So You're born in Santa Monica nineteen eighty eight. Your
Speaker 1: family bounces around California for that first decade of your life.
Speaker 1: Both your parents were musicians. Your mom also had a
Speaker 1: flower shop, I think in Santa Monica for a time.
Speaker 3: She yeah, she did the floral arrangements for Saint John's
Speaker 3: Hospital gift shop.
Speaker 1: Tell me what happened at around like age eight when
Speaker 1: your father tells you about his new wave past. What
Speaker 1: did you make of that?
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, that was a really big moment for me.
Speaker 3: I remember I was sitting on the edge of my parents'
Speaker 3: bed and he was playing electric guitar and he was
Speaker 3: kind of finally admitting. He's like, you know, I used
Speaker 3: to be in a band, and you know, we played
Speaker 3: Madame Wong's and Whiskey a Go Go and we opened
Speaker 3: up for the Knack and I was like the Knack.
Speaker 3: He's like, you know the song my Sharona Sarona, And
Speaker 3: I was like, I do know that song? And you
Speaker 3: opened up for them, and it just blew my mind,
Speaker 3: and then it kind of clicked. I was like, oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, my dad was a rock star because he had,
Speaker 3: you know, became Christian, got a really straight job, and
Speaker 3: he still played music in church, but he was mostly
Speaker 3: just like a normal corporate dad by that time. So
Speaker 3: seeing him reveal this other side of him, I was.
Speaker 1: Like, I knew it.
Speaker 3: I knew it because I just felt like maybe that
Speaker 3: was my destiny, to like not give up and not
Speaker 3: go corporate.
Speaker 1: Did he tell you all that because he wanted to
Speaker 1: deter you from music or did he want to go
Speaker 1: like this was a dream deferred for me but maybe
Speaker 1: shouldn't be for you.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting you say that, because my mother really
Speaker 3: wanted to do music, but she kind of became a mother.
Speaker 3: She had, you know, three babies, and my dad was
Speaker 3: trying to support us, and I feel like they both
Speaker 3: kind of of chose the family route, and so I
Speaker 3: think for me, I always knew there might have been
Speaker 3: a secret yearning for like the unknown, the door that
Speaker 3: was not taken, the path. But I also knew that
Speaker 3: they had become so Christian that for them the value
Speaker 3: of the family and their their new life was like
Speaker 3: I don't think they were breeding me to be a songwriter,
Speaker 3: but there were cues and hidden messages and there are
Speaker 3: some subtext, but there was never a blatant like you
Speaker 3: got to do this.
Speaker 1: But they did want you to be a Christian, I.
Speaker 3: Think more so than a music shouldn't right. I think
Speaker 3: they knew that, you know, music was really tough, and
Speaker 3: I think they knew that you know, it's really difficult
Speaker 3: because I think every child of every parent has some
Speaker 3: seeds that are planted within them, whether it be subconsciously
Speaker 3: or otherwise. I think I don't really know if it's me.
Speaker 1: Or them, probably algamation of yes both. When your family
Speaker 1: did move from California to Pennsylvania, how much of that
Speaker 1: was fueled by the born again Pentecostal church, Like, was
Speaker 1: that was that a big part of it.
Speaker 3: No, that was just my dad just got a better
Speaker 3: job and medical publishing. Yeah, moving to Pennsylvania meant we
Speaker 3: got to have like, you know, a swimming pool, like
Speaker 3: all this weird, old school suburban stuff that we couldn't
Speaker 3: necessarily afford in California. So that was really cool. But
Speaker 3: it was like a time machine. It was like going
Speaker 3: back in time because Pennsylvania was culturally different. What does
Speaker 3: that mean In the late nineties, Pennsylvania was still pretty
Speaker 3: like old school Doylestown, Dolestown. Yeah, it was really a
Speaker 3: lot of mom and pop shops, independent businesses, and like
Speaker 3: weird old buildings. Everything was like in a state of decay.
Speaker 3: It was like, you know, the rusted steel belt. It
Speaker 3: was like moving into the rusted steel belt, which isn't
Speaker 3: really a thing in California. There's other things that are
Speaker 3: old and falling apart here, but for the most part,
Speaker 3: it's like a very generative, new, kind of progressive place
Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania is like a memory, a colonial memory.
Speaker 1: You know. I bring up the church because your mom
Speaker 1: has talked about it. When it comes to religion. Your
Speaker 1: mom said, we weren't a religious household in the sense
Speaker 1: of having a lot of rules and regulations. We were
Speaker 1: kind of a different breed. Yeah, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: At different breed?
Speaker 3: They had been like kind of hippie people. My dad
Speaker 3: was like a new Waiver and my mom was, you know,
Speaker 3: really obsessed with Joni Mitchell and Judy Collins and they
Speaker 3: were kind of like secular and they became Born Again,
Speaker 3: which was a movement in the early eighties. So it's
Speaker 3: like their spin on. It was way more less legalistic
Speaker 3: and less like Baptist and more esoteric.
Speaker 1: And how did it shape you?
Speaker 3: Well, I was allowed to listen to secular music, so
Speaker 3: I was like listening to weird music. I had to
Speaker 3: hide the parental advisory CDs for sure, But like there
Speaker 3: was still this appreciation for culture and it wasn't like
Speaker 3: we were homeschooled or like hidden. We were free range,
Speaker 3: as my dad likes to say. But there are still
Speaker 3: rules and there was still this cosmology we were all
Speaker 3: kind of living under. But there was an appreciation for
Speaker 3: music that wasn't just Christian.
Speaker 1: I heard that they would ground you for like months
Speaker 1: at a time, which would in turn force you into
Speaker 1: a kind of creative isolation. Oh totally is that true? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean I got grounded for very good reasons.
Speaker 1: I would like lie about where I was and take
Speaker 1: the train into the city and like make up somebody
Speaker 1: that I was staying with and I was just at
Speaker 1: some punk house, like it was worth getting grounded over.
Speaker 1: Or I'd like miss the last train home right and
Speaker 1: they'd think I was down the street at a friend's
Speaker 1: house and be like, sorry, I'm in the city, you know.
Speaker 1: Like so I would just go in my bedroom in
Speaker 1: those times and record on my four track. For people
Speaker 1: who only know your recent records, they'd probably be surprised
Speaker 1: to learn that you really got your start in the
Speaker 1: punk and experimental music space, because, like you said, starting
Speaker 1: in middle school then going into high school, you would
Speaker 1: take the R five train into Philadelphia and go to
Speaker 1: these punk shows in like the basements of churches.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the first Unitarian church.
Speaker 1: What would happen at those shows? Like what happened to
Speaker 1: you as a young kid there?
Speaker 3: Well, I would go so early that they would just
Speaker 3: sometimes let me in for free. I'd come like four
Speaker 3: or five hours early and just you're like hi, and
Speaker 3: they're be like, oh, there she is, come on in.
Speaker 1: Who didn't ask, like how old you were?
Speaker 3: The oak They knew I was like fourteen or fifteen,
Speaker 3: so everybody they probably felt a collective responsibility for how
Speaker 3: precocious I was. But I remember there was a guy
Speaker 3: that had a record store. He would have a little
Speaker 3: stand inside the shows, and I would kind of go
Speaker 3: hang around him and like look through the records, and
Speaker 3: I was just like a little spo. I was just
Speaker 3: trying to soak everything up and see every band. And
Speaker 3: in some ways being raised Christian kind of contributed to
Speaker 3: this religious fervor I had about DIY music. We're going
Speaker 3: to a show. To me, that was like church and
Speaker 3: like moshing or like getting into it and standing side stage.
Speaker 3: These were all kind of like ways of transcendence, and
Speaker 3: it was really important to.
Speaker 1: Me since the concerts took place in a church. Could
Speaker 1: you explain it away to your parents to go like, well,
Speaker 1: I did mosh, but it wasn't a church basement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they're like, but it was a Unitarian church,
Speaker 3: which is the most loosey goosey church of all. But
Speaker 3: I think at that point my folks just knew I
Speaker 3: was into dark music. I mean I would listen to
Speaker 3: the crazy records in my room and my mom would
Speaker 3: come in and be like, this music is making you depressed?
Speaker 1: Was it? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I mean it was like the darkest Screamo and you know,
Speaker 3: all the stuff that is really beautiful and appealing to
Speaker 3: an angsty team. And the reason I liked, you know,
Speaker 3: some much music like that was it was the only
Speaker 3: thing you could see lives. If there was going to
Speaker 3: be a show in town, it was going to be
Speaker 3: like kind of a scream o hardcore show. And then
Speaker 3: if it wasn't going to be that, it was going
Speaker 3: to be like weird, grateful dead fish people.
Speaker 1: You've once described yourself as a teenager as moody and weird.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of extra emotional software that I
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with. What did that look like?
Speaker 3: I think I was just very sensitive and in tune,
Speaker 3: and I think I knew about climate change and global
Speaker 3: warming in middle school, and I was like, something's off
Speaker 3: about the culture. I mean, I knew something was off
Speaker 3: about the culture. I think when Britney Spears and and
Speaker 3: Sync and all that stuff started coming out, it's like
Speaker 3: watching the change of the guard, like from kind of
Speaker 3: alternative music into that like early aughts pop. You just
Speaker 3: felt like there was like this dip, this death of culture.
Speaker 3: And the only other person I've talked to about this
Speaker 3: is Adam Curtis actually, and we tried to figure it out.
Speaker 3: We're like, what happened was at nine to eleven? Like
Speaker 3: what was it? And He's like, I think it's when
Speaker 3: the boomers started fearing death.
Speaker 1: Say more about that.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's a really interesting take on it,
Speaker 3: because I feel like I started rebelling and getting angsty,
Speaker 3: probably because of puberty, but also because I was watching
Speaker 3: the world kind of shift into this new place and
Speaker 3: my generation was going to be known as the establishment generation,
Speaker 3: like Millennials were known as like not being rebellious. It
Speaker 3: was almost like we're not even allowed to be or something.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I did feel that, and I
Speaker 3: was really young, and I was kind of in tune
Speaker 3: with that, and maybe that was part of the reason
Speaker 3: I was so moody. Is like, as a young kid
Speaker 3: being into Nirvana and alternative music, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 3: I can't wait to become a teenager and like actually
Speaker 3: have a chance to push the envelope and we'll have
Speaker 3: another wave of deconstructionist music. We'll take the man down,
Speaker 3: you know. And then it was not that it was
Speaker 3: like in sync and Britney spears. It's like, oh, the
Speaker 3: man is bigger than ever, and now everybody's just like
Speaker 3: eating it up, like it's really good.
Speaker 1: So when you start making music on your own, I
Speaker 1: think it's around fifteen Ian. What did that sound like?
Speaker 3: It was really progressive. It was kind of like freak
Speaker 3: folk meets some Hogy Carmichael meets some like I would
Speaker 3: like fill up pots and pans with different levels of
Speaker 3: water and hit them like xylophones, and there's some kind
Speaker 3: of scratch and sniff improvised jazz moments. But it was
Speaker 3: very folky and beautiful.
Speaker 1: And you're going to perform that here today for us, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you brought I brought the pots?
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, and I'm gonna singing cursive if you know.
Speaker 1: The how does how do you sing in cursive?
Speaker 3: You know what cursive singing is?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't even want to tell you. But it's
Speaker 3: it's when people sing in that terrible accent that nobody
Speaker 3: really has.
Speaker 1: The transatlantic one or what can you demonstrate?
Speaker 3: No, because I sing in calligraphy, but cursive would be
Speaker 3: to sing kind of like wow, I don't even know
Speaker 3: how to do it. I don't even want to do
Speaker 3: it because it's so scary to me.
Speaker 1: You look at me like the fear of your eye.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I can't do it.
Speaker 1: When you started making those songs as a teenager, who
Speaker 1: were the big influences? Was it people like Nico and
Speaker 1: Jonny Mitchell?
Speaker 3: Well, no, no, Joni Mitchell was kind of my mom's music.
Speaker 3: I listened to so much of Jony as a kid,
Speaker 3: But as a teenager I was really into like Sid Barrett,
Speaker 3: and I was really into Ween and Sonic Youth and
Speaker 3: Radiohead and Fugazi and just like all the big alternative bands.
Speaker 3: I really loved that book Our Band Could Be Your
Speaker 3: Life by Michael Azarod where he kind of goes through
Speaker 3: all the bands in the eighties and nineties kind of
Speaker 3: leading up to Nirvana.
Speaker 1: Was there anyone that was a kind of template for
Speaker 1: you that you thought like, Okay, I want to make
Speaker 1: a career out of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Sonic Youth for sure, because they were so fierce.
Speaker 3: It was such a legendary story to kind of go
Speaker 3: from being this extremely experimental underground band to kind of
Speaker 3: being a huge, headlining festivals, mainstream band. But because I
Speaker 3: didn't have bandmates, I kind of didn't. I was like, well,
Speaker 3: who's the solo artist I would want to be? I mean,
Speaker 3: it was never my interest to be a solo artist.
Speaker 3: It was almost just out of necessity or you know,
Speaker 3: out of what happened.
Speaker 1: So what happened.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't really find anybody to be in a
Speaker 3: band with. Like there was like a grindcore kind of
Speaker 3: hardcore band and I showed up with my guitar and
Speaker 3: my delay pedal, my loop pedal, and they're like, well,
Speaker 3: would you play bass? And I'm like no, I'm a
Speaker 3: guitar player. And they're like well bye. You know, like
Speaker 3: just like dudes, you know, like dudes weren't interested in
Speaker 3: having like a creative female force. I think they were
Speaker 3: interested in maybe having a bass player, a girl who
Speaker 3: could like support the vibe, but not like somebody was
Speaker 3: trying to do some different stuff. Like I did put
Speaker 3: a band together once, and I felt like the guys
Speaker 3: were a little embarrassed to play with me. So I
Speaker 3: just yeah, it wasn't like I was meeting people with
Speaker 3: the same interests as me. I mean, my musical tastes
Speaker 3: were different than a lot of the kids around me,
Speaker 3: And everybody would talk trash about sonic youth and act
Speaker 3: like they're bad, and then like years later they'd be like,
Speaker 3: wholl that was actually a good band. You were right
Speaker 3: that kind of a.
Speaker 1: M When you leave home at the age of seventeen,
Speaker 1: you graduate high school early, you don't go to prom.
Speaker 3: Didn't do prom. Still down to recreate it someday we'll talk.
Speaker 1: About that afterwards. You then spend like the next decade
Speaker 1: really in transit for pretty much all of it. You
Speaker 1: go to La the New York Then you moved to
Speaker 1: Kentucky where you were tapping maple trees, New Mexico, where
Speaker 1: you studied herbs, Baltimore, where you made music in warehouses,
Speaker 1: before settling back in New York City, all while trying
Speaker 1: to forge a path as a musician. I knew none
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 3: After that, I like moved every like six months or something.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, do you think your trajectory is emblematic
Speaker 1: of the specific struggle your generation faced post the two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight recession? Like the past generation could work
Speaker 1: at a coffee shop, could also make music and live
Speaker 1: in a place that wasn't oh for sure horrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I think that my
Speaker 3: kind of bouncing around and constantly being at the whim
Speaker 3: of a sublet or like an artist's residency or just
Speaker 3: something that was affordable, was because life was becoming unaffordable,
Speaker 3: and it was like so quick that it happened that
Speaker 3: it was like it kind of was happening under everybody's nose.
Speaker 3: Nobody really noticed it was happening. I just started noticing
Speaker 3: in my early twenties of like, oh, that friend has money,
Speaker 3: Like that friend has a parent who's willing to kind
Speaker 3: of step in and fill in the spaces because things
Speaker 3: cost more money now. And I just felt like I
Speaker 3: watched everything kind of shift from being totally manageable to
Speaker 3: completely unmanageable.
Speaker 1: Would you say anything?
Speaker 3: Yeah? But I think I also, like I still thought
Speaker 3: it was possible to live off rice and beans and
Speaker 3: like sell your cassette tapes and buy a funky old
Speaker 3: house and fix it up. But that was such a
Speaker 3: gen X thing, so I think it took a while
Speaker 3: for me to realize that that wasn't the case anymore.
Speaker 1: I guess in the process of figuring that out, did
Speaker 1: you ever go like, h jeez, of course, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I keep going on this.
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, yeah, no. And it was a little
Speaker 3: sad because it was like my skills were so specific
Speaker 3: that it was really difficult to get good jobs. So
Speaker 3: it's like if I had a good nannying job, I mean,
Speaker 3: that could have supplemented my income and been pretty chill.
Speaker 3: But like I would go to a nannying job and
Speaker 3: the kid would be like, you only have one pair
Speaker 3: of shoes, Like you're just wearing the same clothes every day,
Speaker 3: and I'd be like yeah, And I think the kid
Speaker 3: would kind of lose trust in who.
Speaker 1: I was because you only had one pair of shoes.
Speaker 3: I just think that they weren't interested in somebody like
Speaker 3: that at that time. But yeah, no, I just found
Speaker 3: that I was constantly kind of being just like incapable
Speaker 3: of fully engaging in the workforce properly. I was too special,
Speaker 3: just too different. I'd go to a restaurant, I'd work
Speaker 3: at a restaurant for a couple months, and after a
Speaker 3: while people would be like, I don't know about it.
Speaker 1: It's funny, like the the economic conditions that made Gen
Speaker 1: X and the musicians of that generation flourish, that made
Speaker 1: it possible for them to both make indie music and
Speaker 1: live a life that did not carry over into your generation,
Speaker 1: into post two thousand and eight America.
Speaker 3: No, definitely not.
Speaker 1: But the thing that did carry or at least as
Speaker 1: I understand it, was this kind of misogyny embedded within
Speaker 1: the music industry. You have a quote. I would go
Speaker 1: on tour with people and they would say, if you
Speaker 1: don't sleep with me on this tour, it's going to
Speaker 1: be the tour from Living Hell. I used to mute
Speaker 1: my sexuality and my femininity so that I could be
Speaker 1: considered a peer, and that has its own pitfalls.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: How did you manage that stuff?
Speaker 3: I mean it's like, how does any girl manage that stuff?
Speaker 3: It just happens. And I think I played it really
Speaker 3: tough because I had brothers and I kind of had
Speaker 3: this attitude about it that was very like, you know,
Speaker 3: just kind of like, oh, that's just the way it is,
Speaker 3: you know, like I had anger, but I also was
Speaker 3: just kind of so I was so much more interested
Speaker 3: in music and survival that I could put my convictions
Speaker 3: about the misogyny on the back burner for the sake
Speaker 3: of music, which that all became an issue, Like eventually
Speaker 3: it all had to kind of come to a head
Speaker 3: where I was like, oh, I have to face this mask.
Speaker 1: And when did that happen?
Speaker 3: I think when there was more women in music, and
Speaker 3: when it became clearer to me how they behaved, and
Speaker 3: it became clearer to me what happens when a group
Speaker 3: of men are in a room with one woman versus
Speaker 3: when one man it's in a room with a group
Speaker 3: of women, and you know, just kind of understanding that
Speaker 3: dominance hierarchy is kind of like the natural disposition of
Speaker 3: a group of men. So when you get a group
Speaker 3: of men in a you know, recording studio, they will
Speaker 3: tend to defer to one another and one person and
Speaker 3: will kind of become the one that everybody defers upon
Speaker 3: because they'll kind of take on the alpha stance, and
Speaker 3: if a woman shows any sign of weakness or kind
Speaker 3: of like I don't know what to do, that men
Speaker 3: see that as an opportunity to come in and be like, well,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what to do, and it's not coming
Speaker 3: from any state of maliciousness. It's just this kind of
Speaker 3: natural settling of vibes. And I think that upon learning that,
Speaker 3: I kind of realized like, oh, there's been so many
Speaker 3: moments where I kind of let the guys kind of
Speaker 3: have their moment and then I'm kind of secretly controlling
Speaker 3: everything behind the scenes. And then I realized very quickly
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I don't.
Speaker 1: Even need to like do it secretly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can just be like very blatant about this.
Speaker 1: Did that happen on like your second record? Did you
Speaker 1: feel that? Yeah?
Speaker 3: That was my like kind of learning curve where I
Speaker 3: was like, I was definitely dealing with a lot of
Speaker 3: men who had a lot of ideas, Like they kind
Speaker 3: of saw me as this raw clay, like raw putty,
Speaker 3: and I saw myself as like, oh, I'm just so
Speaker 3: glad that I get to be here, you know, going
Speaker 3: from a moldy basement to playing an actual venue, Like
Speaker 3: how exciting or like having an actual album deal, being
Speaker 3: in a real studio, and I'd be like, well, what
Speaker 3: do you think? What do you think? And I didn't
Speaker 3: really understand at the time that they were like so
Speaker 3: ready to tell me exactly what they thought. It wasn't
Speaker 3: necessarily they were like looking out for my best interest
Speaker 3: and getting that confidence, in that strength to know that
Speaker 3: I instinctually knew what I needed to be and that
Speaker 3: I was the boss. It's a beautiful thing when you
Speaker 3: can kind of finally clear that space and be the
Speaker 3: driver of your own chip.
Speaker 1: So then when you got into the room to make
Speaker 1: Titanic Rising, did you say to yourself, I need to
Speaker 1: do this my own way, Like I can't do what
Speaker 1: I did on the last one.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 3: I think Front Row Seats Earth was the first album
Speaker 3: that I was just like and I was working with
Speaker 3: Chris Cohen, who is such a just an angel of
Speaker 3: a person, an incredibly intuitive, sensitive soul. So he really
Speaker 3: paved the way for me to do exactly what I
Speaker 3: wanted to do and to not feel like I constantly
Speaker 3: had to defer to other quote unquote more experienced gentlemen
Speaker 3: or whatever. And then on Titanic Rising, it was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I was already just kind of ready to take the reins.
Speaker 3: And Rado and I have very similar feelings and ideas
Speaker 3: about sound and music, and so it was very collaborative
Speaker 3: and fun. But there are even moments where it'd be
Speaker 3: like the Lemon Twigs and Rado, it would be like
Speaker 3: a group of guys just kind of like going crazy,
Speaker 3: and I would just be in the background like, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, like but I had to like kind of
Speaker 3: let them get their yayas out and then I would
Speaker 3: take the record into my own hands and mute all
Speaker 3: the things they did.
Speaker 1: What the hell are there yayas? I don't know.
Speaker 3: And you get a bunch of musicians in a room
Speaker 3: and they're just kind of jamming, and they just go
Speaker 3: for it and depart the original plan, the idea, and
Speaker 3: it's very important. I think that that kind of generative,
Speaker 3: volcanic vibe in a studio is really important to just
Speaker 3: kind of let people cut loose and do what they
Speaker 3: want to do, and that's how you can capture some
Speaker 3: real magic. But that's also how you can get some
Speaker 3: stuff that has nothing to do with your music. It's
Speaker 3: good to deviate a little bit here and there and
Speaker 3: you can't be too strict with where things go, because
Speaker 3: when you're loose and you're kind of letting things unfold,
Speaker 3: you can surprise yourself.
Speaker 1: After the break. More from Wiseblood. Hey everyone, this is Sam.
Speaker 1: As you may have noticed the past six months in Hollywood,
Speaker 1: they haven't been going that great. The actors and the
Speaker 1: writers went on strike against the AMPTP. The writers have
Speaker 1: recently reached deal, but the actors have yet to do so. Obviously,
Speaker 1: for a show like ours that has on writers, actors, filmmakers,
Speaker 1: this has proven to be a challenging time. I'll just
Speaker 1: be honest with you. It's been difficult to make a
Speaker 1: show about culture when culture has basically been put on
Speaker 1: pause for the most part. And yet myself along with
Speaker 1: our incredible, incredible team, have continued to make new episodes
Speaker 1: just about every Sunday. We've done this with authors like
Speaker 1: Zadi Smith and WashU, musicians like Leave and Ludwig Gorenson,
Speaker 1: who created the score for Oppenheimer. We had on st Higham,
Speaker 1: We had on reporters like Sam Sanders and Matt Bellanie.
Speaker 1: We did an episode about the border with Beto O'Rourke
Speaker 1: and my father. We had a conversation with screenwriter Alex
Speaker 1: O'Keeffe at the height of the strike about the conditions
Speaker 1: of being a modern screenwriter, the state of Hollywood, and
Speaker 1: really so much more. Through this turbulent, precarious time, we
Speaker 1: have continued to find stories that I think are worth
Speaker 1: telling and worth sharing with you. And so if any
Speaker 1: of those episodes, or if any of the episodes that
Speaker 1: I did not mention, have meant something to you, if
Speaker 1: the show has meant something to you, I would really
Speaker 1: appreciate if you shared the program on social media or
Speaker 1: with a friend, with a family member, anyone that you
Speaker 1: think would be interested in the kind of researched, thoughtful
Speaker 1: and honest conversations that we try to have here each
Speaker 1: in every Sunday. You can share and tag us at
Speaker 1: talk easypod across social media. If you want to drop
Speaker 1: us a line, you can reach me at SF at
Speaker 1: talk easypod dot com. That's sf at talk easypod dot com.
Speaker 1: Later this year we'll be starting our newsletter, which we
Speaker 1: are very excited to do and put out. But until then,
Speaker 1: sharing the show or reviewing it on the platform that
Speaker 1: you're listening to this right now. I know every podcas
Speaker 1: caster talks about it, but it really does help us
Speaker 1: continue doing the work we so love to do here
Speaker 1: each and every week. And with that, I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy the rest of this conversation with wise Blood. I
Speaker 1: feel like fittingly this chapter turn that happened with Titanic Rising,
Speaker 1: it makes all the sense in the world, because even
Speaker 1: the cover of the record is like it's a recreation
Speaker 1: of your teenage bedroom, right, yeah, and it's like very
Speaker 1: clearly sitting at the intersection of the past and the present. Like,
Speaker 1: how would you describe the thesis of that album? We
Speaker 1: mentioned the trilogy at the top, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, I think that album is a kind of a
Speaker 3: very extroverted kind of alarm album where it's like coping
Speaker 3: with radical shifts change over the course of our lifetime,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of being born at the end of
Speaker 3: the twentieth century, at the end of a paradigm and
Speaker 3: kind of watching the new paradigm unfurl in front of
Speaker 3: our eyes faster than we could have imagined.
Speaker 1: Eerie that it came out in April of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3: I know, it was right before the shit really hit
Speaker 3: the fan. Did you have a sense then, of course?
Speaker 3: I mean, that's why I made it I really felt.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is whatever's going on is so
Speaker 3: unstable and insane.
Speaker 1: And what song do you think exemplifies that thesis?
Speaker 3: I think something to believe and a lot's going to change.
Speaker 3: Both ended up being the most kind of universal feelings
Speaker 3: that a lot of people.
Speaker 1: Felt, all right, this is a lot's going to change.
Speaker 1: Off the record Titanic Rising by wise Blood.
Speaker 7: Go back to a time when I was just when
Speaker 7: Jack Me dro me that good thing could be taken away.
Speaker 5: If I still believe, but start apply, You're gonna be yours.
Speaker 4: Lord, it's gonna change in you talk trying to leave
Speaker 4: it all because.
Speaker 3: The you I can't listen to. I can't listen to
Speaker 3: my own music.
Speaker 1: Why can't you listen to your own music?
Speaker 3: Because I just hear all the things I could have
Speaker 3: done differently.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's rank them one through five. What are the
Speaker 1: things you want to change?
Speaker 3: Oh? No, I can't give away all the secrets. It's
Speaker 3: kind of like the director's commentary on a DVD or something.
Speaker 3: It's like, you don't do that for music. Music is
Speaker 3: so subjective anyway, Why would you plan any seed about
Speaker 3: what was supposed to be or what was it meant
Speaker 3: to be when it is just what it is and
Speaker 3: it's kind of everybody's own personal experience.
Speaker 1: I agree, But then why can't you just.
Speaker 3: Listen to it like that. I'm a perfectionist and I'm
Speaker 3: constantly a work in progress. I think I'm still trying
Speaker 3: to figure out how to make music that sounds the
Speaker 3: music I hear in my head. I still don't know
Speaker 3: if I've successfully done that. I think I'm getting closer
Speaker 3: with the last three albums, but I feel like the
Speaker 3: next record I make, I've learned so much. I'm really
Speaker 3: excited to make another album.
Speaker 1: When you perform this new record on stage, does it
Speaker 1: let you in some way get out of your own
Speaker 1: head about it all?
Speaker 3: Yeah? No, Performing it live is really the salve for
Speaker 3: any kind of recording studio blues because it's so different.
Speaker 3: It's like it's just this one moment. It really is
Speaker 3: time and space, and recording is time and space. You're
Speaker 3: kind of creating a special space and creating a specific
Speaker 3: three to six minute amount of time. That's like a
Speaker 3: little transportation device experience for somebody. But it's this evolution,
Speaker 3: this process of growth and creation, and I mean that's
Speaker 3: kind of goes back to what I said earlier about
Speaker 3: trying to capture the music I hear in my head.
Speaker 3: It's like in the idea phase, it is so amorphous.
Speaker 3: It can be anything, and in some ways that limitless possibility,
Speaker 3: there's like a very exciting state when something is just
Speaker 3: an idea, and then when it becomes something solid, like
Speaker 3: a recording or like an album, you do have to
Speaker 3: kind of let go of all the little ideas that
Speaker 3: didn't make it.
Speaker 1: You know, the songs in your head. Do you find
Speaker 1: yourself creating songs while you're in the midst of having
Speaker 1: like human experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this goes back to the party, Like I write
Speaker 3: songs in the most inopportune times, but when there's friction
Speaker 3: in the world and in between people or I don't know,
Speaker 3: I just yeah, it's in that state of friction that
Speaker 3: for me, songs come out. And that's why I write
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff on my phone because I used
Speaker 3: to write in a journal and it was just so obvious.
Speaker 3: You bust out a journal, everybody's going to look at you, like,
Speaker 3: what what are you doing over there? You think you're
Speaker 3: better than us, But if you're writing a poem and
Speaker 3: the notes app on your phone. Nobody knows, so I
Speaker 3: get away with it that way. Sometimes you can't really
Speaker 3: control when lightning strikes. It's just so random.
Speaker 1: When it comes to the construction of these songs. Throughout
Speaker 1: this tour that you've been on this year, people have
Speaker 1: been coming to the shows with like a bunch of
Speaker 1: DVDs that they keep giving you, And I wanted to
Speaker 1: just talk about the role of film in the way
Speaker 1: you think of your music, because I'm curious how much
Speaker 1: of like Stanley Kubrick, informs the way you imagine your
Speaker 1: lyrics and your songs.
Speaker 3: A lot. I've always tried to attain some kind of
Speaker 3: cinematic quality to the music because I've always been such
Speaker 3: a big fan of soundtracks and classical music and that
Speaker 3: creating and defining emotion on screen using melody and you know,
Speaker 3: even like Mickey Mousing, like just using sound effects to
Speaker 3: represent movement. That connection to me was always very strong,
Speaker 3: and it was like I could always kind of hear
Speaker 3: a soundtrack to life, and I could always feel when
Speaker 3: a song had an emotion to it that was really specific,
Speaker 3: and certain chord changes would make me feel this way
Speaker 3: versus others. And I just always found that connection to
Speaker 3: be so beautiful that you can kind of guide somebody
Speaker 3: over the course of a film with score, but also
Speaker 3: that when a film lacked score, that that silence in
Speaker 3: itself had its own really intense presence. So I think
Speaker 3: those dynamics in cinema always really inspired me, and I
Speaker 3: think when it came to Stanley Kubrick, he was always
Speaker 3: so interested in kind of the subconscious interpretation of images
Speaker 3: and movement, where he felt like instrumental music and silent
Speaker 3: scenes and film were just as effective as dialogue, and
Speaker 3: I'd have to agree. I think sometimes they can say
Speaker 3: even more. And that's kind of always why I have
Speaker 3: at least one instrumental track on my albums, because music itself,
Speaker 3: just as is with our subconscious kind of painting its
Speaker 3: own picture, is also very very transcend it.
Speaker 1: Kubrick once said about two thousand and one a Space Odyssey,
Speaker 1: that I was trying to create a visual experience, one
Speaker 1: that bypasses verbalized pigeon holding and directly penetrates the subconscious
Speaker 1: with an emotional and philosophical content.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like exactly what I hope to do at
Speaker 3: times as well. I mean, I wouldn't aspire to necessarily
Speaker 3: well who knows, maybe I'll direct a movie someday.
Speaker 1: That was the biggest smile you've had during this whole taping.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, yeah, No. I have a real hankering for
Speaker 3: creating a visual universe that accompanies my music, and I
Speaker 3: look forward to exploring that more.
Speaker 1: You mentioned Adam Curtis, and as we leave, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about the intersection of your music and a visual element,
Speaker 1: which he made this great video for your song God
Speaker 1: turned Me into a Flower, And before we play it,
Speaker 1: I just kind of wanted to sit with that track
Speaker 1: and see, I don't know what it means to you
Speaker 1: having performed it all year long and live with it
Speaker 1: as long as you have.
Speaker 3: Luckily, it's kind of continued to evolve. I kind of
Speaker 3: wrote it because I had just read The Culture of
Speaker 3: Narcissism by Charles lash and it was like a very
Speaker 3: interesting book to read to kind of diagnose the culture
Speaker 3: as being like kind of a little bit more narcissistic
Speaker 3: than it had ever been, and how our interpretation of
Speaker 3: that might be a little flawed because people think the
Speaker 3: myth of narcissist is about a guy who was obsessed
Speaker 3: with his own reflection, when in reality, the crux of
Speaker 3: that myth is that he didn't recognize that it was himself,
Speaker 3: that he was kind of obsessed with this reflection, not
Speaker 3: knowing what it was, thinking it was this external otherness,
Speaker 3: and becoming fully consumed and kind of missing the point
Speaker 3: that it was within himself, which is like a reoccurring
Speaker 3: archetype in a lot of religious myths, and I think
Speaker 3: it's so typical of modern culture too, like everybody's seeking
Speaker 3: external validation constantly and kind of going outside of themselves,
Speaker 3: hoping to find something that fills the void of their spirit,
Speaker 3: and in reality, it's, you know, the only thing that
Speaker 3: could ever really fulfill you is within you.
Speaker 1: But many people turn to music to fill that void.
Speaker 3: I think because music helps you get into that headspace,
Speaker 3: which headspace just like kind of a mythical headspace of
Speaker 3: taking something like the art of music in itself. It's
Speaker 3: a job is to kind of take these things that
Speaker 3: feel meaningless or feel hopeless and all of a sudden
Speaker 3: make them kind of transcend that and become a universal
Speaker 3: truth or universal experience, or kind of an encapsulation and
Speaker 3: a meaningful presentation of something versus just kind of like
Speaker 3: the passing, ticking moments of reality which slip away so quickly.
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Uh huh so yeah, I guess
Speaker 3: my hope would be that the whole concept of getting
Speaker 3: turned into a flower is really to kind of become soft,
Speaker 3: and that the rigidity of our own beliefs and our
Speaker 3: own narratives that we tell ourselves in our head in
Speaker 3: some ways, that's what needs to change and becoming more
Speaker 3: flowerlike becoming more soft and kind of accepting reality in
Speaker 3: the most radical sense. And I know I've said that
Speaker 3: twice about acceptance, but it's such a long journey to
Speaker 3: even figure out what that means for yourself. You know,
Speaker 3: everybody kind of has to go on that journey of
Speaker 3: finding out that everything they've sought externally exists within themselves.
Speaker 1: This is God turn Me into a flower by wise Blood.
Speaker 5: You see the reflection. You want it more than the truth.
Speaker 9: D dream you couldna get to because the person on
Speaker 9: the end of the side is old. It's just being.
Speaker 4: Oh God, journey.
Speaker 1: To coming back. You said right before the song that
Speaker 1: everyone has to go on this kind of journey to
Speaker 1: figure out what it means to you, What has it
Speaker 1: meant to you? Like? Where are you at on all
Speaker 1: of that?
Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of like you you have to
Speaker 3: find the infinity in every moment. And as long as
Speaker 3: you're in your mind thinking about or hoping for some
Speaker 3: future or kind of fretting over some past experience, as
Speaker 3: long as you're not present, you're actually not steering your
Speaker 3: car in the right direction.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: If you live within the moment and within the now,
Speaker 3: you can actually kind of see clearly and actually experience
Speaker 3: reality in a way that is present and like you
Speaker 3: can see what's happening versus if you're obsessed with some
Speaker 3: probable outcome, or if you're obsessed with what you want
Speaker 3: to be, if you're obsessed with everything that's missing from
Speaker 3: your life, if you're obsessed with things that you've lost,
Speaker 3: that that puts the focus to kind of more of
Speaker 3: an abstract, non existent place, and you kind of lose
Speaker 3: touch with the things that are actually happening in front
Speaker 3: of you at that moment. I think it's important to
Speaker 3: be able to enjoy the good times but not become
Speaker 3: too attached. Important to experience the bad times and not
Speaker 3: become too attached. And a state of detachment isn't nihilistic
Speaker 3: or apathetic or existential, but it's actually kind of like
Speaker 3: a cosmic sense of humor, and looking at it that way,
Speaker 3: I think you can live a little bit more passionately
Speaker 3: in the waves because inevitably everything's going to ebb and flow,
Speaker 3: and you want to learn how to serf that.
Speaker 1: You did an interview this year where I think one
Speaker 1: journalist asks to you, like, do you think you're like
Speaker 1: a nostalgic person, and you said, I've been using the
Speaker 1: word sentimental more. I think I'm sentimental because sentimentality leaves
Speaker 1: you open to experiencing the future as something that's worth remembering.
Speaker 1: In our culture, it's so easy to just assume that
Speaker 1: the future is going to keep getting worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean I really feel that. I think
Speaker 3: nostalgia has become more of a capitalistic trope nowadays than
Speaker 3: it's ever been, where they're just trying to kind of
Speaker 3: repackage things that we miss and sell them back to us.
Speaker 3: But sentimentality is anything can be sentimental.
Speaker 1: I bring that up because as we're talking about the
Speaker 1: past and present in the future, the third part of
Speaker 1: your trilogy, which will be the next record, you said
Speaker 1: it's going to be about hope, and I wondered, is
Speaker 1: that still true, and if so, can you make the
Speaker 1: case for hope in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Yes, you can. I really do think that the universe
Speaker 3: ultimately is more benevolent than not, you know, I think
Speaker 3: we constantly live in a really exquisite balance of people
Speaker 3: trying their best. But I do think that it's hard
Speaker 3: to watch when that doesn't always kind of fulfill our
Speaker 3: greatest hopes and dreams for humanity. But I think on
Speaker 3: the whole, putting that onto the individual, like it's up
Speaker 3: to you personally to solve climate change, up to you
Speaker 3: personally to solve all this social unrest, I think that
Speaker 3: is where it gets unrealistic. I do think that we're
Speaker 3: kind of finding a new medium of communication with each
Speaker 3: other because the medium of communication has become kind of
Speaker 3: entertainment and media and social media and things like that
Speaker 3: that in order to effectively communicate with each other, it
Speaker 3: takes hope. It takes hope and acceptance for the inevitability
Speaker 3: of the finiteness of time and maybe the finiteness of
Speaker 3: culture or like civilization as we know it. And I
Speaker 3: don't think that that has to be all doomsday sad,
Speaker 3: you know, I think there's still hope in that So.
Speaker 1: You're saying the next record pure bliss.
Speaker 3: I mean, it'll be extroverted in its own way, but
Speaker 3: it's also not made yet, so it's like I can't
Speaker 3: say too much. I don't want to jinx it. But ideally,
Speaker 3: all the things that we've been talking about and the
Speaker 3: way you've seen me evolve over this year as a
Speaker 3: person that kind of feeds into your art.
Speaker 1: Last night, in preparation for this conversation, I opened up
Speaker 1: the emails that we first sent each other we met,
Speaker 1: and I have this quote from you that's so good.
Speaker 1: He wrote, It's interesting to imagine what people are going
Speaker 1: to tell themselves in the next thirty years this record.
Speaker 1: This was about the latest one at the time. This
Speaker 1: record is the beginning of my narration the modernity myths.
Speaker 3: I don't even remember saying that. That sounds pretty wind baggy,
Speaker 3: but you know how it is. I can't help it.
Speaker 1: I thought it's kind of nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I would think that we need myths and
Speaker 3: we need stories, and we need archetypes to cope with friction.
Speaker 3: It's a valuable thing for artists to do well.
Speaker 1: If we were to do this again in five years,
Speaker 1: what do you want for yourself, both in the music
Speaker 1: and beyond it.
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel so grateful that I get to
Speaker 3: do what I do that I would hope that I
Speaker 3: could continue. I would love to keep making records and
Speaker 3: touring for as long as that makes sense. It feels
Speaker 3: like something I was born to do. But I also
Speaker 3: it would be nice to the next five years. I
Speaker 3: don't know. That's such a deeply personal question, isn't it.
Speaker 3: I don't know what I want, and I think that's
Speaker 3: really beautiful. Like I think that I would like to
Speaker 3: know what I want in the next five years, but
Speaker 3: at this moment, I'm just kind of enjoying what it is.
Speaker 1: Maybe in the next five years, you'll make a song
Speaker 1: that you'll be comfortable listening to in front of me.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a very attainable goal.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 3: I like that one. But yeah, no, I would love
Speaker 3: to develop a closer community of people and musicians and
Speaker 3: artists and friends. I do think that our culture is
Speaker 3: not fabulous for community, and I think that there has
Speaker 3: been a lot of fragmentation since the pandemic and we're
Speaker 3: still kind of coming back from it, and it's a
Speaker 3: slow crawl. And then there's also just the social fabric
Speaker 3: of America in general being completely unhinged and bizarre. So yeah,
Speaker 3: in five years, I'd love to see some nurturing happen,
Speaker 3: of closeness between people and friends, and maybe find other
Speaker 3: ways of expressing myself besides songwriting.
Speaker 1: Well, before we go, is there a track that you
Speaker 1: want to leave us with?
Speaker 3: Yes, I will leave you with Something to Believe?
Speaker 1: Really you want to go to that record?
Speaker 3: Well, I think something to Believe is cool. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like what we were talking about, Like if you
Speaker 3: needed to have some kind of faith in reality, it
Speaker 3: could just be faith that it's always changing.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for this and for that show the
Speaker 1: other night. Seeing everyone respond to songs that I remember
Speaker 1: you playing for me, like, you know, six months before
Speaker 1: they came out, it is kind of amazing to see
Speaker 1: the entire Greek theater lose their shit over things that,
Speaker 1: like I remember us just hearing when we didn't know
Speaker 1: how people were going to respond.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah I will. I'll say this is a good
Speaker 3: story because I feel like I play you were one
Speaker 3: of the first people to hear the album. Yeah, besides
Speaker 3: the people that worked on it, and I was so nervous,
Speaker 3: but it made so much sense to hear it through
Speaker 3: your ears. It was almost like the premiere of it
Speaker 3: in my mind. I didn't know you that well. I
Speaker 3: was like, here's some random guy that knows a lot
Speaker 3: about cool stuff, and I'm just, you know, exposing myself.
Speaker 3: But I felt like when we listened to it, I
Speaker 3: could hear it with New Year's too, and it was great.
Speaker 1: I will sign up for that job anytime you need me.
Speaker 1: Natalie A pleasure, Sam, thanks for having me. This is
Speaker 1: something to believe. Off Titanic Rizin by wise Blood.
Speaker 5: Drank a lot of coffee today, God lost.
Speaker 4: In the fray.
Speaker 6: I gave all for a time, then bays Strange design,
Speaker 6: I got a case of alass for Gatten b and
Speaker 6: by lad to the band man living on the phone, and.
Speaker 4: I just laid down a crown the regal baby. Something
Speaker 4: can see, something bigger, Sason.
Speaker 5: Something terrible.
Speaker 8: S And that's our show.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to leave us
Speaker 1: five stars on Spotify, Apple, wherever you do your listening.
Speaker 1: Whatever you can do to help ensures that we can
Speaker 1: keep doing this through the end of the year and
Speaker 1: into twenty twenty four. Now, with that, I want to
Speaker 1: give a special thanks to our guest today, my friend
Speaker 1: Natalie Mahring aka wise Blood. If you've not listened to
Speaker 1: her latest record and in the Darkness Hearts Glow, you
Speaker 1: can find it wherever you are listening to this right now.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to learn more about her and her work,
Speaker 1: or if you want to check out that music video
Speaker 1: we referenced in this episode, visit our website at talk
Speaker 1: easypod dot com. If you want to hear more episodes
Speaker 1: with other great musicians, I'd recommend our talks with David Byrne,
Speaker 1: Ludwig Gorensen, Questlove Lord, and Sleader Kenny. To hear those
Speaker 1: and more Pushkin podcasts. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
Speaker 1: wherever you like to listen. You can also follow us
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram at talk Easypod. If you want
Speaker 1: to purchase one of our mugs or our vinyl record
Speaker 1: with the inimitable fran Lebowitz, you can do so at
Speaker 1: talk easypod dot com slash shop That's talk easypond dot
Speaker 1: com slash shop Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is jenay Si Bravo. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: is Caitlin Dryden. Today's talk was edited by Clarice Gavara
Speaker 1: and mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our assistant editors are Lindsay
Speaker 1: Ellis and c J. Mitchell. Today's episode was engineered by
Speaker 1: Tim Moore out of York, recording here in Los Angeles, California.
Speaker 1: Our music is by Dylan Pack. Our illustrations are by
Speaker 1: Christian Schenai. Photographs today are by Julius Chu. Video and
Speaker 1: graphics by Ian Chang, Derek Aberzac, Ian Jones and Ethan Senica.
Speaker 1: I also want to thank our team at Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: Justin Richmond, Julia Barton, John Stars, Kerrie Brody, Heather Feine,
Speaker 1: Eric Sander, Jordan McMillan, Kira Posey, Tara Machado, Jason Gambrel,
Speaker 1: Justine Lang, Malcolm Gladwell, and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Sam Fragoso.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy.
Speaker 1: I'll see you back here next week. Until then, stay
Speaker 1: safe and so on.