Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: This is talk easy. I'm student Fragoso. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Today we return to our very special conversation with artist
Speaker 2: Marina Abramovic. She's currently the subject of a show at
Speaker 2: the Royal Academy of Arts in London, making her the
Speaker 2: first female artist to host a major solo exhibition at
Speaker 2: the two hundred and fifty five year old institution. Recognition
Speaker 2: is long overdue. As a pioneer in performance art, which
Speaker 2: she began creating back in the nineteen seventies. Throughout her career,
Speaker 2: she's often tested her own physical limits in ways we
Speaker 2: haven't seen in public spaces before or since. And yet
Speaker 2: perhaps her most daring performance, the one that you probably
Speaker 2: know her from, is her most sedentary and the artist
Speaker 2: is present. From two thousand and nine, Marina sits silently
Speaker 2: at a wooden table in which a queue of people,
Speaker 2: one by one, sit across from her in a chair
Speaker 2: waiting to be occupied. Over the course of nearly three months,
Speaker 2: for eight hours a day inside the MoMA Atrium in
Speaker 2: New York City, she met the gaze of over a
Speaker 2: thousand strangers, many of whom were moved to tears in
Speaker 2: her presence. The piece would Garner Marina international recognition catapulting
Speaker 2: performance art into a larger cultural conversation, a conversation that
Speaker 2: continues here today on our show has both Marina and
Speaker 2: I discuss her five decades of groundbreaking work and how
Speaker 2: she continues to create art out of hardship at the
Speaker 2: age of seventy six. I sat down with her last
Speaker 2: year inside her New York City apartment, and to help
Speaker 2: illustrate exactly what we're talking about, we've put together a
Speaker 2: virtual exhibit displaying some of the pieces discussed in this conversation.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to follow along as you listen, you
Speaker 2: can visit our website at talk easypod dot com. That's
Speaker 2: talk easypod dot com. We've also included a link in
Speaker 2: the description of this episode. We'll be back next Sunday
Speaker 2: with a new episode with a guest that we have
Speaker 2: long wanted to have on this show. Until then, here's
Speaker 2: my talk with artist Marina Abramovich.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3: You know why the people don't like to people get
Speaker 3: into their partners because they don't like to reveal anything
Speaker 3: about themselves. But I don't have secrets. I have no secrets,
Speaker 3: which is so incredibly relaxing.
Speaker 1: May be the first person to ever come on the
Speaker 1: show with no secrets.
Speaker 3: You know, when I do things, I am here with you.
Speaker 3: I'm notwhere else.
Speaker 1: That's how I do the show. Yeah, Marina, thank you
Speaker 1: for having me in your apartment. This is very unusual,
Speaker 1: especially in pandemic times.
Speaker 3: I think I totally ignore pandemic times. Looks to me,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I work more than ever, I travel
Speaker 3: more than ever. I'm really lucky. I never got sick.
Speaker 3: I got all vaccinations boosters. Not everybody else, but to me,
Speaker 3: the pandemic time. Okay, sorry, what's that?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 3: You?
Speaker 1: The bell rang? Marina walked to the door. Now she returns.
Speaker 3: They aren't know within there, they're kind of mixing the door. Okay,
Speaker 3: So my pandemic time is incredibly creative. For an artist's
Speaker 3: solitude is so important. In these two years, there was
Speaker 3: plenty of solitude. Also for me, nature was very important.
Speaker 3: I developed this exercise that to go to nature and
Speaker 3: look the tree you really like, and hug the tree
Speaker 3: and complain beIN minimum fifteen minutes. And I'd done this
Speaker 3: in England, and people really start complaining much longer than
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes. So much to complain. In England, they start crying,
Speaker 3: start pouring the heart out and talk about their lives.
Speaker 3: I really understood how much nature can heal.
Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna do a whole show with very little complaints.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna complain too much.
Speaker 3: I'm not complaining. Type actually very positive, you know. To me,
Speaker 3: when I see something very try, something very difficult, this
Speaker 3: is happening. It's always reason behind to really understand why
Speaker 3: things are happening, is not happening. I love this saying
Speaker 3: of Sufi's I think it's a roomy he say the
Speaker 3: wars is the best and why because then when it
Speaker 3: comes to the bottom of things, then somehow the gravitation
Speaker 3: force pulls you up after every rainy days of the sun.
Speaker 1: How are you grappling with what's happening in Russia and Ukraine.
Speaker 3: I was just reflecting on this whole thing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: First of all, I've just been there, so my relation
Speaker 3: to this is really like something's happening to my family
Speaker 3: and it's devastating, and I've just been in a ki
Speaker 3: of walking on the streets and seeing the buildings be
Speaker 3: demolished and had the suffering and the people in the
Speaker 3: subways and no food and electricity, no water. I feel
Speaker 3: almost guilty, how lucky I am here. I'm here in
Speaker 3: America and I just, you know, go to the bathroom
Speaker 3: and I had a hot shower anytime I want. And
Speaker 3: then also the question, but what you can do in
Speaker 3: this situation, how you can help? I also have the
Speaker 3: same questions when I was worn in my country in Zeugoslavia,
Speaker 3: and then I realized the only thing I can do
Speaker 3: is do my work as fast as I can and
Speaker 3: give the message through art. In that time in Yugoslav War,
Speaker 3: I create a space Balkan Baroque which I washed the
Speaker 3: bones repeatedly for five days in a thirty degree celsius,
Speaker 3: when the worms was coming out of the meat and
Speaker 3: blood was everywhere. And the message was that you never
Speaker 3: can wash the blood from your own hands. And that
Speaker 3: image is looking very apocalyptic, you know, me sitting on
Speaker 3: the file of two thousand and five hundred bonds and
Speaker 3: try to wash them without any result.
Speaker 1: Other than nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. But the part of this more important was
Speaker 3: it was for that moment rather than my country. But
Speaker 3: that image. I also want to be transcendental. I want
Speaker 3: to be that image that we can use over and
Speaker 3: over again wherever war is. Somewhere is Ukrainia just before
Speaker 3: this war started, the last only a few months ago.
Speaker 3: I've been several times in Ukrainia because I was invited
Speaker 3: to build monuments for Babyar. Babyar. It's one of the
Speaker 3: very dark part of history of the Second World War.
Speaker 3: In nineteen forty three, one hundred thirty thousand Jewish people,
Speaker 3: gay people and the Gypsies being killed in three days,
Speaker 3: strip naked and killed on the hill and throw into
Speaker 3: the mass grave. And then after that it was just
Speaker 3: put the concrete over this ault thing and became the park.
Speaker 3: And this park stays through the Nazi period, Ukrainian period,
Speaker 3: and Russian came and Ukrainia came back into doing the
Speaker 3: dependency and never been any kind of memory about that event.
Speaker 3: And some Holocaust people who still survives, people who remember
Speaker 3: this sulting and never had any point that they can
Speaker 3: actually moan or they can you know, sit in silence
Speaker 3: flight on this event. Till Zelenski, the president came and
Speaker 3: Brazilenski is Jewish and he felt his duty as the
Speaker 3: first thing actually to create the park of the memory
Speaker 3: about Babyar and he wired some artists and I make
Speaker 3: the proposal, and my proposal was accepted, and I was
Speaker 3: very touched and really full responsibility of what I'm going
Speaker 3: to do there. So I was thinking, how I can
Speaker 3: conceptually prolong this wall of prayer in Jerusalem all the
Speaker 3: way to the Ukraina into the wall of crying, healing
Speaker 3: and forgiveness. And I came with this idea of forty
Speaker 3: meter very big wall, enormous autonomy toms actually to construct
Speaker 3: free standing wall in this park. And the wall was
Speaker 3: made from the call Black coll who is actually came
Speaker 3: out of Ukraina. And then I ordered two hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty pure crystals from the middle of the mines in Brazil,
Speaker 3: and I positioned them in three places in an exactly
Speaker 3: position of the had hearted stomach, with the different sizes
Speaker 3: of different size of people, including the children. And the
Speaker 3: instruction of that wall was that you go in there,
Speaker 3: face the wall and press three points of your body
Speaker 3: against the crystals and close your eyes and just contemplate,
Speaker 3: remember and also get healing from crystals that historically had
Speaker 3: been possible. And it was incredible to see forty people
Speaker 3: standing against the wall. And when it was the opening
Speaker 3: of this old BBR event. For the opening, keme Zelenski
Speaker 3: came the President of Germany and the President of Israel.
Speaker 3: And these three presidents never faced the wall in their life.
Speaker 3: They always faced the audience. And I asked them actually
Speaker 3: to face the wall, and they did. And this was
Speaker 3: a very historical moment.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The idea of that monument is there for healing. And
Speaker 3: before the attack of Russia, there was alway so many
Speaker 3: rumors in Ukrainia the WORL would start frequenty to be
Speaker 3: used more and more and more. And I hope there
Speaker 3: was still after this hell finished. One day, I hope
Speaker 3: the world be still there.
Speaker 1: Something you said early on, you and I sitting here
Speaker 1: in this beautiful apartment in New York, you feel some
Speaker 1: kind of guilt that you're here and your friends are
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. How much of your work do you think
Speaker 1: comes from a place of guilt.
Speaker 3: I don't think much, actually, if I think really seriously,
Speaker 3: lots of work come out of missing love, out of loneliness,
Speaker 3: broken heart, unhappiness, some kind of big drama.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I always think that generally, if you look history of art,
Speaker 3: there's not too many art come from happiness. You need
Speaker 3: some kind of push into something that is different than
Speaker 3: your trunk will life. And always my old theory that
Speaker 3: you know, if your childhood, you have great childhood, it's
Speaker 3: difficult to become good artists because you have to difficult childhood,
Speaker 3: because there's so much work to do to work with.
Speaker 3: And I'm always you know, I take my body as
Speaker 3: a center of the work, like you know, pushing mental
Speaker 3: physical limits. But also the body is universe, and nobody
Speaker 3: knows even how our brain works. We think that we
Speaker 3: have thirty percent working, but actually scientists just develop the
Speaker 3: theory that we only have twenty percent work.
Speaker 1: Some people seem to have less than twenty percent.
Speaker 3: I'm sure. But the thing is that, you know, if
Speaker 3: I take my body's universe is endless exploration, endless expiration.
Speaker 3: And to me, in my early period of work, it
Speaker 3: was really kind of pushing these physical limits. And now
Speaker 3: I'm so much more interesting in the brain and mental limits,
Speaker 3: which is so much harder. But I think the work
Speaker 3: if you come just about guilt, I don't think that's interested.
Speaker 3: I think it is so much more important to kind
Speaker 3: of expand consciousness and see things in a kind of
Speaker 3: big view. I always love this big view. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I have story that everybody should go to the Museum
Speaker 3: of Natural Art History here in New York, and there
Speaker 3: is this conservatory and actually this is for children mostly,
Speaker 3: And then you go there and it was lying on
Speaker 3: these very comfortable chairs and then all swear open and
Speaker 3: there is a universe. And then you see a milky
Speaker 3: way and a tiny little shiny dot the pointed with
Speaker 3: the lasers say and this is Earth. And then comes
Speaker 3: this voice like George Clooney, whoever has said this is
Speaker 3: a planets And we look this, this tiny little blue
Speaker 3: tea and on this tiny little blue tinge. How many
Speaker 3: shit is happening? And how much we don't care about
Speaker 3: these little blorers. It's terrible. So I always try to
Speaker 3: have this view from the plane, you know, on the
Speaker 3: old thing, and to see this in the context of
Speaker 3: the planet, in the cosmic black holes universe. When I
Speaker 3: was child, my big question was always what is behind
Speaker 3: on the cosm? Where are we now?
Speaker 1: There's a piece of poetry that you discover in your
Speaker 1: childhood that I think informs the artist at present. It
Speaker 1: comes from Rioka. It goes Earth. Isn't this what you
Speaker 1: want to arise within us? Invisible. Isn't it your dream
Speaker 1: to be wholly invisible someday? Or Earth invisible? What if not?
Speaker 1: Transformation is your urgent command.
Speaker 3: This is so incredible. You see, Rica is my big,
Speaker 3: big love. And this is related to the Great Wall.
Speaker 3: That I walk together with Ulai, each of us to
Speaker 3: a half thousand kilometer to come to the middle and
Speaker 3: say goodbye. One of the reasons we wanted to do
Speaker 3: this because NASA report was also that only visible construction
Speaker 3: human made on our planet can be seen from the
Speaker 3: moon from out of space. It's the Pyramids and Great
Speaker 3: Wall of China. So before us, before subtleites, before anything.
Speaker 3: The second century poet and he said Earth is small
Speaker 3: and blue, and I'm just a little crack in it.
Speaker 3: Confession of the Great Wall of China. I mean, how
Speaker 3: you explained this complete astral vision of somebody looking from
Speaker 3: up into the earth in the second century.
Speaker 1: This idea of transformation, This is recurring throughout your work.
Speaker 1: The artist is present is being represented by a video
Speaker 1: installation in this upcoming exhibition for people who may remember
Speaker 1: this piece, for those who don't know about it, how
Speaker 1: do you think about this performance?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: You see this is twelve years later and one of
Speaker 3: the reasons why I want to show to actually this
Speaker 3: piece now in a gallery after twelve years is really
Speaker 3: that I have very large young audience. My generation is
Speaker 3: not kind of my audience, and so many of them
Speaker 3: have never had opportunity to see this work. This huge
Speaker 3: opportunity to actually recause constructed. But also what is happening
Speaker 3: in this piece. It's that I documented lifetime exactly, which
Speaker 3: is insane. We are talking seven hundred and sixteen hours
Speaker 3: of the documentation. I was thinking how I can present this.
Speaker 3: I was very conscious about recording this historical event, even
Speaker 3: if you're never going to sit there and look seventy
Speaker 3: six hours, but your mind, you know, that's real time,
Speaker 3: real labor which I put in, and it's no fake.
Speaker 3: I never stand up, I never drink the water, I
Speaker 3: never moved, So it's just to be there, present for
Speaker 3: this period of time. So what we had there, we
Speaker 3: had one camera who filmed all situations, which is a
Speaker 3: two chairs and table two months and later on tables
Speaker 3: removed it just two chairs, and then we filmed you
Speaker 3: on one side me first months in blue color because
Speaker 3: dress was blue, second months in red and need more energy,
Speaker 3: and the two months purification white color, so that each
Speaker 3: this square, which is actually filmed on my face, it's
Speaker 3: actually eight hours multiplied by three months. The only time
Speaker 3: that is ten hours is every Tuesday when museum is
Speaker 3: open ten hours, so it's really created as a diary.
Speaker 3: On another side, you have people. Every single square is
Speaker 3: amount of people who see that day. Some of them
Speaker 3: sit five minutes, twenty thirty. I have the guy who
Speaker 3: sit the entire seven hours. I have the same man
Speaker 3: sit twenty one time in the different periods. I have
Speaker 3: people returning, coming back, and so on. So the second
Speaker 3: screen on the opposite is like pust sitting up and down,
Speaker 3: up and down, up and down, and in the middle
Speaker 3: you have original two chairs and the table, so it's
Speaker 3: real time. You go into kind of time capsule to
Speaker 3: see this piece, and then it's very important. Another thing
Speaker 3: about this installation the photography. In the seventies, when you
Speaker 3: record performance art, the photographer never been told what to do,
Speaker 3: because also performers sometimes is very impulsive or is very improvised,
Speaker 3: so you never know what's going to happen. And then
Speaker 3: sometimes it's fifteen minutes, one hour, two hours, so the
Speaker 3: photographer come take some shots, go smoke a cigarette, come back,
Speaker 3: take another shot. So what you see it's not really
Speaker 3: exact what happened there, and also is influenced by the
Speaker 3: vision of photographer what he see and not what actually
Speaker 3: see the performer after seeing documentation. And here I have
Speaker 3: Mark Connelly, who I asked to photograph every single person,
Speaker 3: which means that this is a first photographer is in
Speaker 3: history to be there exact amount of time like me,
Speaker 3: with exact same conditions. He could go to the talls,
Speaker 3: you could not do eat. You have to be there
Speaker 3: to photograph every single person, and so most of the
Speaker 3: people who sit there and cry. And the Mark Connelly
Speaker 3: told me that he will actually photograph different sequences, but
Speaker 3: we also will make the point waiting that the tear
Speaker 3: reach the cheek and the light just kind of hit
Speaker 3: that point that is glowing. Wow. As the photographer, we
Speaker 3: just actually published the book. It's just incredible.
Speaker 1: For seven hundred and sixty and a half hours, you're
Speaker 1: sitting motionless in the moment atrium. Again, this is eight
Speaker 1: hours a day, every day, ten hours on Fridays for
Speaker 1: three months. I have a question. We'll come back to
Speaker 1: some of this later, but I have a question you
Speaker 1: and I just sitting here now. You're an extremely excitable,
Speaker 1: animated person that wants to go from here to here
Speaker 1: in conversation and offering tea, and you've given me cookies
Speaker 1: and je Japanese and all these treats. And I sense
Speaker 1: a kind of restlessness. Even in the pandemic. You are
Speaker 1: creating endlessly in the work. When you're sitting there for
Speaker 1: three months, did it calm you in some way? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't need to be calm. I am exciting. I
Speaker 1: love things, I love to explore. I'm curious. I love
Speaker 1: to see every moment the world like a child, just
Speaker 1: you know, born.
Speaker 3: This is so important.
Speaker 2: This.
Speaker 3: I feel that life in every pore of my body.
Speaker 3: And the work in the performance, work is something else.
Speaker 3: You enter to another type of yourself, You enter in
Speaker 3: your super self. How I can say it's a transition.
Speaker 3: You know, you create the concept and then you executed
Speaker 3: this concept, and that's not a life, but is life
Speaker 3: also because three months doing this thing become life, become
Speaker 3: my life because it was nothing.
Speaker 1: Else, because there's no division, not at that point, between
Speaker 1: art and your life.
Speaker 3: And then when you when I came back out of
Speaker 3: the performance, I made a big party. I went to
Speaker 3: the countryside with the twelve friends and we had a blust.
Speaker 3: We had a love and we had a humor, and
Speaker 3: we have ice cream and we have fun.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: This is the thing, you know, it's it's not contradictional.
Speaker 3: I have so many different people in me, and all
Speaker 3: of them have a kind of equal presence and each
Speaker 3: one to function what the concept needs, you know. So
Speaker 3: I do nothing regularly, you know, like people say, oh,
Speaker 3: my meditate every day. No I'm not. But there is
Speaker 3: a time that I'm just wake up and I'm lazy,
Speaker 3: and laziness is fine too. And then I have some
Speaker 3: ideas and are really shitty, so I'm thinking and love
Speaker 3: about them and I'm not doing it. And then I
Speaker 3: have an idea, idea. Well I'm so obsessed by it
Speaker 3: and I'm so afraid. It's a hell I have to
Speaker 3: do that, Like artist is present. There was a hell
Speaker 3: of an idea. But it was also opportunity to show
Speaker 3: the transformative power of performance art by doing absolutely nothing.
Speaker 3: That was incredible, but it was every day could be
Speaker 3: the last, how have you? And difficult was but that
Speaker 3: was my chance to do that. In a setting of
Speaker 3: the MoMA Art sum and put performance right from no
Speaker 3: mainstream art into mainstream. And to me, I was sixty
Speaker 3: five when I done MoMA. I could never do this
Speaker 3: when I was twenty five, for simple reason I didn't
Speaker 3: have this willpower. I didn't have the wisdom. I could
Speaker 3: don't concentration and any of this. Sixty five was right time,
Speaker 3: and I do it. I mean now I am next year,
Speaker 3: seventy six and I'm playing very big performances in all
Speaker 3: Academy and I just done you know, oput which I'm
Speaker 3: directing and playing myself. But not so difficult, you know.
Speaker 3: But I want to say, it's so interesting to explore
Speaker 3: new territories to see what's happening. This is not wrestless us.
Speaker 3: This is curiosity, and.
Speaker 1: I love your curiosity. In nineteen seventy six, you spoke
Speaker 1: on the role of the artist. You said, you have
Speaker 1: to realize that it is the decision of the artists
Speaker 1: to use their body through which it becomes an instrument,
Speaker 1: and you only have to look at the message it carries.
Speaker 1: You have qualms just like most other people. That is
Speaker 1: an ethical matter, but the artist has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the morality. Once you go over that limit, the
Speaker 1: matter is about other things. Do you still belie leave
Speaker 1: that in twenty twenty two that the artist has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with morality?
Speaker 3: But you know, I just want to also say that
Speaker 3: taking back all the artists work, we are talking about performances,
Speaker 3: We're talking about fluxus and happening, we are talking about
Speaker 3: foot tourists, we are talking about that day is we
Speaker 3: I mean, just name it all historical things. It would
Speaker 3: never happen now because of this the situation how everything
Speaker 3: is judged.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 3: Look now, political correctness today, like you're accused of everything
Speaker 3: you say, every comment, you can't tell the jogs, you
Speaker 3: can't say nothing. Is so difficult, and the freedom of
Speaker 3: artists to be free and say whatever he wants is
Speaker 3: taken away. So the work that I've been doing in
Speaker 3: that period will never be possible now, absolutely not. They
Speaker 3: will be judged in a totally different way that and
Speaker 3: it's nothing to do with art at all. So this
Speaker 3: is what I'm really fed up with political correctness. I
Speaker 3: love telling drugs. I can't tell any drug anyway, or
Speaker 3: because I can't tell jogs about Mexicos, I can tell
Speaker 3: you about Jewish, I can tell drug The only thing
Speaker 3: I can tell about more Tenegro people are my own,
Speaker 3: but everything else I have a great Jewish jock. Actually
Speaker 3: I can tell. So the two Jewish guys mates on
Speaker 3: the street, and one Jewish guy said, okay, can you
Speaker 3: tell me just in one word how you feel? And
Speaker 3: the guys say good, okay, if you need the two
Speaker 3: words to tell me how you feel, he said, not good,
Speaker 3: it's so stupid. I love it. It's just simple and
Speaker 3: nobody got hurt.
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh, let's stick on this for one moment before
Speaker 1: we go back. This is something I hear about often
Speaker 1: that political correctness cancel culture. It's getting in the way
Speaker 1: of true artistic expression. But what has it done to
Speaker 1: your work? Has it in any way prohibited you from
Speaker 1: making something you wanted to make? No? Haven't you made
Speaker 1: everything you've wanted.
Speaker 3: It's true because I don't give a shit about it.
Speaker 3: This is why I don't. I really don't, and I
Speaker 3: take my freedom.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I've been criticized so much constantly when I was in
Speaker 3: ex Zigoslavia doing my early performances. One now in every
Speaker 3: art history book it was terrible ticks about them that
Speaker 3: I should be put in mental hospital. And that is
Speaker 3: not art, that this is this is shame and so on,
Speaker 3: and this go on forever. And then I was the
Speaker 3: poor artist where everybody liked to be discovered. Then I
Speaker 3: was discovered. Then in MoMA, I was celebrated. Then they start,
Speaker 3: you know, telling me how I'm celebrity now and this
Speaker 3: is not art. Then they'm using the fashion clause because
Speaker 3: I get fashion clothes from the friends. Then I am
Speaker 3: become this conspiracy theory, which is another shit. You know
Speaker 3: that I'm at least they before they told me I
Speaker 3: am Satanic priests. Now they actually they upgrade me into
Speaker 3: the high priests.
Speaker 1: I mean, this go on and on and on, and
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm really looking forward to the Satanic
Speaker 1: parties you invited me to.
Speaker 3: You know, I have whatever you do, you know, and
Speaker 3: I'm targeted and I can't change that. All what I
Speaker 3: can do is do my work the best as I can,
Speaker 3: as I've always been doing, regardless of the opinions, and
Speaker 3: opinions constantly up and down, up and down. You know,
Speaker 3: the more you're exposed and the more you're into the world,
Speaker 3: the more you have hate and love. Nobody is ever
Speaker 3: indifferent about my work or they hate me or they
Speaker 3: love me. It's how it's supposed to be. I'm not
Speaker 3: not complaining, just just noticing.
Speaker 1: But sometimes the criticisms bother you.
Speaker 3: I hate lies. If I do my work and I
Speaker 3: give one hundred and fifty percent what I'm doing, and
Speaker 3: I give every atom of my energy to the work,
Speaker 3: I'm okay with this because I can't do more. And
Speaker 3: whatever you tell me is good or not, I can't
Speaker 3: change it. But if I don't do this hundred fifty percent,
Speaker 3: I have the worst judge to myself. I get sick
Speaker 3: and I don't go out of the street. I really
Speaker 3: know I didn't do my best. But when they're telling
Speaker 3: me that I am traffic in children and I am satanists,
Speaker 3: this is incredibly hurtful because it's total lie and absolutely
Speaker 3: manage my function of an artist in my message. That
Speaker 3: is something that I can't take. Wait, can I tell
Speaker 3: something more about I need to get you something.
Speaker 1: You can give me something?
Speaker 2: No, no, something no.
Speaker 3: I want to talk about this, Okay.
Speaker 1: Marina is in the kitchen grabbing what looks to be
Speaker 1: a newspaper.
Speaker 3: Differently than the male artist. It's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: I just want this. This is the.
Speaker 3: Guardian last week it's a very big article Guardian. Okay,
Speaker 3: that you know?
Speaker 2: To me?
Speaker 3: I also like to talk about how does somebody manager
Speaker 3: in me? Recently? And they told me if you are
Speaker 3: the only female artists have that kind of public image
Speaker 3: like I have away like Jeff Consle that me and
Speaker 3: Hurst not that the other female artists have. I didn't
Speaker 3: think that way, but then I'm thinking, yes, if I
Speaker 3: have that kind of what kind of image I have?
Speaker 3: I'm talking just especially about the two Guardians articles recently.
Speaker 3: One was about my show in October last year in
Speaker 3: Listen Gallery, and then oother one you know last week
Speaker 3: about publishing on my cards of Abram Which method you know?
Speaker 3: I didn't know that when you write the article, the titles,
Speaker 3: what articles are made from the different organization. So I
Speaker 3: had both articles very well written by the people who
Speaker 3: are the artistorian and they're good, but the titles are
Speaker 3: incredibly discouraging, diminishing and vulgar.
Speaker 1: They're designed for people to click on it, and that
Speaker 1: subtly bothers me.
Speaker 3: And this you don't have with the male artists. You
Speaker 3: have just with me. Who is the only public one here?
Speaker 3: I mean, okay, this is one just now you know
Speaker 3: the one in October was Marina Bramwich Have a Young Lover,
Speaker 3: Dirty Jokes and mystical Crystals. That was the worst kind
Speaker 3: of summary what my fifty years of my career is.
Speaker 3: So now I'm publishing this the cards who have been
Speaker 3: really well reviews everywhere, and now the cover of the
Speaker 3: issue in The Guardian is culture for her next tricks
Speaker 3: Marina Bramwich Artists, Provocateur, self help Guru is the most
Speaker 3: ugly titles I can possibly imagine, and I have to
Speaker 3: live with that. And when you read the article, this
Speaker 3: doesn't actually reflect the title at all. And why you think,
Speaker 3: my question to you, is this happening?
Speaker 1: I think there's two reasons why. One, people are reading
Speaker 1: less and less, and publications across the globe have to
Speaker 1: continue to write headlines that are intentionally provocative to get eyeballs,
Speaker 1: to get people to click so that advertisers keep coming back.
Speaker 1: That's the financial part of it, and that's true. The
Speaker 1: second part is probably what you're saying, which is you're
Speaker 1: a woman in the public eye and most of these articles,
Speaker 1: even when the articles are written by women, the headlines
Speaker 1: are written by men, so there's clear sexism too.
Speaker 3: But you know it's one thing to take this when
Speaker 3: you're in the beginning of your career or the video career,
Speaker 3: but when you're really seventy five, it still lies act
Speaker 3: of your life. You know, how long it going to
Speaker 3: live till eighteen ninety whatever. I hope on hundred three
Speaker 3: as my grandmother. But I just kind of have enough
Speaker 3: that my work finally should have the kind of weight
Speaker 3: and understanding which is more profound than these titles.
Speaker 2: Well, I agree with you, So whant tot we take
Speaker 2: a break and when we come back, we'll dive into
Speaker 2: the work. Coming back. You talk about at this point
Speaker 2: in your life wanting people to understand the work that
Speaker 2: you've made. Why don't we try to do that. Let's
Speaker 2: start with Rhythm zero, which you performed in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: four in Naples. Explain to people what exactly you did here.
Speaker 3: You know, by that time I was already doing my
Speaker 3: performance work. Performance artists in those days was heavily criticized
Speaker 3: as masochist, as sadis, this is exhibitionism, that's not art
Speaker 3: at all, and so on and so on, and I
Speaker 3: become very angry and very fatal in that time. When
Speaker 3: you're young and they say Okay, let me see if
Speaker 3: I do something and see what will happen if I
Speaker 3: put seventy two objects on the table which have the
Speaker 3: objects for pleasure and objects for pain and torture, including
Speaker 3: pistol with one bullet, and also the simple structure that
Speaker 3: you can use everything on the table as you want
Speaker 3: pleasure pain, including killing me in six hours. And I
Speaker 3: take all responsibility. And I'm standing dress in black shirt
Speaker 3: and black jeans in the front of this table. Wow,
Speaker 3: that was kind of pretty bald to do that. But
Speaker 3: I was ready to die. There was no question about it.
Speaker 1: You are ready to die.
Speaker 3: I was ready to die for art. You know, there
Speaker 3: is a wonderful set. The quotation of Bruce Nauman, he said,
Speaker 3: you know, the art is a matter of life and death.
Speaker 3: Maybe sounds malodramatic, but it's also very true. This is
Speaker 3: how I took everything in my life as matter of life,
Speaker 3: and that this is why my work is so important
Speaker 3: to me. My work is everything I have. I pour
Speaker 3: my heart into it and every single work, and it's
Speaker 3: true and it's vulnerable. And this is why young generation
Speaker 3: can react to me that way because they understand it's
Speaker 3: not bullshit. Is understand that they have intuitions, they have
Speaker 3: sense that I'm not playing anything. What I'm doing and
Speaker 3: what they see is.
Speaker 1: What it is. This is a matter of life and death.
Speaker 1: It's my understanding that a man placed a bullet in
Speaker 1: the pistol of one of your performances.
Speaker 3: In that performance. Particularly so for this perform there was
Speaker 3: normal gallery. People came from normal opening, not expecting anything.
Speaker 3: They came with the wives that came. So and the
Speaker 3: six hours we are talking, you know, from the evening
Speaker 3: till two in the morning, and they have were not
Speaker 3: expecting anything like that, me standing there in the front
Speaker 3: of them, completely looking one point fix and the all
Speaker 3: this possibility. So the first three hours they've been playing,
Speaker 3: they will give me the flowers, they will fit me
Speaker 3: with a piece of cake, you know, all kinds of
Speaker 3: things that was available on the table for pleasure and playing.
Speaker 3: But I took six hours. I give them time to
Speaker 3: actually develop dark side of themselves and then start playing.
Speaker 3: They cut me on my neck, drink my blood. They
Speaker 3: put the cotton around my shoulders, tried to burn. They
Speaker 3: put the water over me. They carry me around, spread
Speaker 3: their legs and put the knife on the table between
Speaker 3: my legs. They done all of these things. Still the
Speaker 3: one came with a pistol. Put the bullet, put on
Speaker 3: my forehead. Somebody start fighting. They throw the pistol away.
Speaker 3: There was all this incredible attention. Everything with Italians done
Speaker 3: to me. If you see the photographs, is a reflection
Speaker 3: of three things, poor Madonna mother, three possibilities. The women
Speaker 3: would tell men what to do, and they would take
Speaker 3: my tears on my eyes. They would not do anything,
Speaker 3: and they cut my clothes. They exposed my breast. When
Speaker 3: the one give me the rose, other one takes the
Speaker 3: needles of the rose and step into my breasts. I
Speaker 3: was standing there and I absolutelyn' react if they put
Speaker 3: my hand up and live that way. If they moved me,
Speaker 3: I had no reaction at all, like a puppet. And
Speaker 3: this went on and on and onth The only they
Speaker 3: didn't rape me because they was there with the wives.
Speaker 3: But I could go in any direction. And after six
Speaker 3: hours I was really naked, full of blood, wet hair
Speaker 3: falling upon it was horrible. The galleries came to me
Speaker 3: and whisper my ear. Six hours is finished, and I
Speaker 3: start moving towards them. To the public. The whole run away,
Speaker 3: literally they run away. They could not face me as
Speaker 3: me and then I came to the hotel, I look
Speaker 3: myself in the mirror and a piece of gray hair
Speaker 3: in my hair.
Speaker 1: After that performance, you just described gray hair. With the
Speaker 1: gray hair, What did it tell you about people?
Speaker 3: It was very important because actually two performances was very
Speaker 3: important to me. The iteth of zero and many many
Speaker 3: years later, artists is present because of the same reason
Speaker 3: relation to public, because in the first one, I really
Speaker 3: pushed the dark side and I understand in that process
Speaker 3: that public can kill you. When I understood that, I
Speaker 3: didn't want to deal with that part anymore. Then artists
Speaker 3: is present. I restrict everything except I gaze, not touching
Speaker 3: and now talking just condition is city and I guess
Speaker 3: there I left human spirit because I knew the key
Speaker 3: how to do that. That was the moment that actually
Speaker 3: the only they can do is to go into themselves.
Speaker 3: But I need all these years in between to get that.
Speaker 1: Twice thirty six years between the two. Throughout your career,
Speaker 1: you've created performances around self infliction. You have razor blades,
Speaker 1: the stomachs and lips of Thomas, a bed of fire,
Speaker 1: and rhythm five taking pills for schizophrenia and rhythm two.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, sounds so terrible.
Speaker 1: But this performance in rhythm zero is different, like you said,
Speaker 1: because others are causing the pain. And I wonder how
Speaker 1: much you're drawing from your experience is growing up in
Speaker 1: post war Yugoslavia. Here's a passage from your memoir. When
Speaker 1: I was small, when my mother and sister would slap me,
Speaker 1: I got blue bruises all over. My nose would bleed constantly.
Speaker 1: Then when I lost my first baby tooth, the bleeding
Speaker 1: didn't stop for three months. I had to sleep sitting
Speaker 1: up in bed so I wouldn't choke. Finally, my parents
Speaker 1: took me the doctors to see what was wrong with me.
Speaker 1: At first they thought it was leukemia. My mother and
Speaker 1: father put me in the hospital. I was there for
Speaker 1: almost a year. I was six. This was the happiest
Speaker 1: time of my childhood.
Speaker 3: That's true. I'm so so dramatic. Now I look with
Speaker 3: total optimism and enthusiasm about this all hell I went
Speaker 3: through because I make me stronger. And I also understood
Speaker 3: this intention of my mother, because you know in this diaries,
Speaker 3: I'm talking about her not ever kiss me or tell
Speaker 3: me I love you or something like that. And I
Speaker 3: never understood that coldness and the really suffered as a childhood.
Speaker 3: So much for that. But then when she died, I
Speaker 3: find her diaries and I read this diarist. And if
Speaker 3: I read one page of this diary during her lifetime,
Speaker 3: my relation to my mother would be very different. Why
Speaker 3: is that? Because she was emotionless, suffering father, being totally
Speaker 3: unfaithful all the time. You know, I have to have
Speaker 3: her career, two children to take care, and it was
Speaker 3: so hard. And I understand in her mind, the only
Speaker 3: way to make me strong is to make me worry
Speaker 3: and cut me from all the emotional bullshit. That's how
Speaker 3: she saw it. But I didn't know that. I only
Speaker 3: knew this ash that died and then I really forgive
Speaker 3: this all thing. So I'm looking this like just experience,
Speaker 3: but also the later on the things that I done
Speaker 3: to my body. It's not reason because I wanted to
Speaker 3: suffer or I want to I am interested in pain.
Speaker 3: It was much more related to the shamanism, to the
Speaker 3: rituals of different cultures. All of them deal with the
Speaker 3: facing the pain of the body and understanding the pain
Speaker 3: of the body and actually liberate themselves from the fear
Speaker 3: of the pain, and I just staged these things in
Speaker 3: front of the public goes through this, and if I
Speaker 3: can do to myself and do this, the public can
Speaker 3: also get treat of their fear of the pain, because
Speaker 3: pain is something that you can open the door. Pain
Speaker 3: keeps the secrets. It's kind of complicated to explain all that,
Speaker 3: but in a way, you know right now, I mean,
Speaker 3: do I look too sick to look you, you know,
Speaker 3: unhealthy or I'm something disturbed? No, I actually pretty free
Speaker 3: because I understood the structure and this was, you know,
Speaker 3: one of the reasons how to enlarge your consciousness. I
Speaker 3: get to read of fears that you have basic fear
Speaker 3: of pain, of dying, of suffering, and I had plenty
Speaker 3: in my life and took me fifty years to work
Speaker 3: this out.
Speaker 1: Do you wish you could have forgave your mother or
Speaker 1: mended your relationship before she passed away.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so. As I said, if I just
Speaker 3: read one page's diary, it would be different. And I'm
Speaker 3: so sorry I never did. My mother was national hero
Speaker 3: that I didn't know either till I found actually the
Speaker 3: article and medals in the little box under her bed,
Speaker 3: because she never talked about the war. And my father
Speaker 3: always talked about the war. He was also a hero.
Speaker 3: Different story, and she never talked, and she always have
Speaker 3: the light in her bedroom on. And I was always
Speaker 3: thinking because she's afraid of dark. And I don't think
Speaker 3: she was afraid of dark. She was pretty much have
Speaker 3: the guts and that was amazing story. They want to
Speaker 3: know the story how she got a hero.
Speaker 1: I know the story, but I would love for you
Speaker 1: to tell her.
Speaker 2: So she.
Speaker 3: Was the commander of the Red Cross. She was like
Speaker 3: I don't know, twenty seven to uage on the front lines,
Speaker 3: picking up wounded soldiers to bring them safety to the hospital.
Speaker 3: And there was occupation of Belgrade, and she have a
Speaker 3: truck with the six nurses driver and she picked up
Speaker 3: on the streets of Belgrade soldiers forty six of them
Speaker 3: put inside the car and was driving to get out
Speaker 3: of Belgrade to the hospital which was not occupied. And
Speaker 3: in the process the driver got killed and she had
Speaker 3: to remove all the soldiers with the six nurses to
Speaker 3: the sidewalk and the truck start getting fire, and she
Speaker 3: ran into the fire truck and take the land phone
Speaker 3: that she can fold the hospital to send another truck.
Speaker 3: In meantime, four nurses got killed, so she's now with
Speaker 3: two nurses, and her new truck came got all the
Speaker 3: soldiers back to the new truck. Forty six of them
Speaker 3: saved their life. Not bad, not bad, not at all.
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about her because throughout your memoir you
Speaker 1: reference your relationship with her, especially in relation to how
Speaker 1: you loved. You're right. When I think back on all
Speaker 1: that happened between Ulay and me and Paolo and me,
Speaker 1: I often wonder what I contributed to each split. And
Speaker 1: I can't help believing that the need to be loved
Speaker 1: and taken care of that my mother never satisfied was
Speaker 1: a hurt I brought to every man I was ever with,
Speaker 1: and something that they couldn't fix. You're seventy five, now,
Speaker 1: how do you think about those loves today?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: God, you know I don't take it more because in
Speaker 3: the past and each of them I suffer and love
Speaker 3: with Paul already broke my heart. And this is the
Speaker 3: reason why I've done all this, you know, the seven
Speaker 3: deaths Mariacanas, because in her life, you know, on US's
Speaker 3: broke her heart. She die and for me, my work
Speaker 3: saved me from that dying. But I want to do
Speaker 3: something in memory of her. But finally, and right now,
Speaker 3: this is five years I mean relationship. Who's like, wow,
Speaker 3: I can't believe this is really happening. I've always believed
Speaker 3: the second shoes fall down and something will terrible happen
Speaker 3: because it's based on trust and love and happiness and
Speaker 3: incredibly peacefulness, and it is so unknown territory for me,
Speaker 3: and it's working citing all the understanding and all mistakes
Speaker 3: and the kind of knowledge I get from the old
Speaker 3: failed relationships kind of pour into this one that actually
Speaker 3: I think I'm more happy in my life than ever been.
Speaker 3: And it's like very un known territory to work in.
Speaker 1: In fact, it's the exact opposite of territory we started with.
Speaker 3: Absolutely it takes long time. But also age is not
Speaker 3: bad at all, because you know, if you're old and sick,
Speaker 3: that really sucks, but when you're old and happy. Ad vice.
Speaker 3: I never want to go back when I was twenty thirty, forty.
Speaker 1: It was too hard work, so it's okay. So basically
Speaker 1: I want to get this right. You said in the
Speaker 1: beginning of this conversation, if you had a happy childhood,
Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty hard for you. As an artist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you're a happy adult at seventy five, does
Speaker 1: that work?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, works because you have all this knowledge that
Speaker 3: you didn't have when you're twenty five, and that knowledge
Speaker 3: counts lot. Honestly, this is like for me the last
Speaker 3: part of my life, and it's so full of optimism
Speaker 3: and hope and happiness and always I said the same thing,
Speaker 3: always about dying. All what I'm worrying about is to
Speaker 3: die without fear, consciously and without anger. And if I
Speaker 3: succeed this, I done well in this life. Because you know,
Speaker 3: as again Sophie said, life is a dream and that
Speaker 3: is waking up.
Speaker 1: You said your last performance piece will be your death.
Speaker 3: Not really that funeral because that you know, we don't know.
Speaker 3: But the funeral, yes, organized funeral.
Speaker 1: What is this project?
Speaker 3: I just wanted to have happy ending. It's so important
Speaker 3: to have happy ending, you know, of one fulfilled life.
Speaker 3: And I really feel that I'm very lucky that my
Speaker 3: life is very fulfilled with so much events, good, bad,
Speaker 3: difficult together all of them just is kind of wonderful.
Speaker 3: That act of dying, you can't predict when. But the funeral,
Speaker 3: I don't know. Want anybody organized for me I like
Speaker 3: be organized myself to be celebration, dirty jobs, lots of music,
Speaker 3: nobody wear black, lots of food, and really remember all
Speaker 3: of the happy moments, good music. You see, it looks
Speaker 3: like that is knocking on the outdoor or something.
Speaker 1: It does sound like that does knocking on the door.
Speaker 1: I mean it means we have to wrap up.
Speaker 3: It looks like this is such a wonderful conversation and
Speaker 3: you hardly eat any cookie.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna eat some cookies. I have two things for you.
Speaker 2: We started with the artist as present. I want to
Speaker 2: go to one day after two months of performing, when
Speaker 2: a man in a wheelchair arrives at the front of
Speaker 2: the line. The guards removed the other chair and put
Speaker 2: him in his wheelchair across the table from you, And
Speaker 2: you said, I looked at this man, and I realized
Speaker 2: that I didn't even know if he had legs. The
Speaker 2: table was in the way. What happened that night when
Speaker 2: you went home?
Speaker 3: Then I realized that I actually don't need a table.
Speaker 3: That is some kind of social structure that I constructed
Speaker 3: from the beginning, but I could not know there before
Speaker 3: because this art is such a huge space, and if
Speaker 3: I just had the two chairs I felt it was
Speaker 3: very little because it's already so minimal, you know. I
Speaker 3: put the table there, and this is the fear generally
Speaker 3: of very young artists when they think they need to
Speaker 3: put lots of stuff. And I literally own my career
Speaker 3: removing more. But now I was only two chairs a table.
Speaker 3: I think, okay, this is pretty minimal. But then when
Speaker 3: this man came and I realized I don't know if
Speaker 3: you have legs or not, I understood I don't need
Speaker 3: this table either, and this was incredibly important realization. Then
Speaker 3: when I came to mom the next day, the security
Speaker 3: manager told me that it's not possible that it's buffer
Speaker 3: between me and audience, that you have to have it.
Speaker 3: I say, yes, but this isn't my decision, and I
Speaker 3: removed the table. At that everything changed. I was dressed
Speaker 3: in white, and all energy was like so dense, and
Speaker 3: relation was so intense. But I was ready for that
Speaker 3: intense relation because I already sit there two months before.
Speaker 3: So this is the process that you can't actually speed
Speaker 3: it up, have to go slowly till you realize that
Speaker 3: you don't need anything.
Speaker 1: This is the only time that you've made a major
Speaker 1: change in the middle of a piece right.
Speaker 3: Yes, only time, but that was totally necessary. And minimality
Speaker 3: of this piece, you know, because it's minimal, is so
Speaker 3: immaterial already. And that was the piece who changed my life?
Speaker 1: Why did it change your life?
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I realized that actually I have to work
Speaker 3: with audience. Then my work is people. That's my work,
Speaker 3: and the people have to also do the world themselves.
Speaker 3: This is why create a brand, which method? This is
Speaker 3: my creat institute. It's all new function.
Speaker 1: Removing the table from that performance, it reminded you of
Speaker 1: an Indian folk tale. But the coffin, can you share
Speaker 1: that with people?
Speaker 3: This king who buried the very beautiful princess in the
Speaker 3: world in the fall in love and there was the
Speaker 3: most happy kingdom in the world, and she could become
Speaker 3: pregnant and delivered the child. She died or she became
Speaker 3: sick and she died one of one other story and
Speaker 3: I don't remember exactly. And he was so devastated about
Speaker 3: his dad that he put her in the simple wooden
Speaker 3: coffin and looked this coffin and then he covered the
Speaker 3: coffin with the emeralds, sapphires in gold and was not enough.
Speaker 3: And around this coffin, he created another one, and then
Speaker 3: little temple, and the temple was not enough, and make
Speaker 3: a bigger temple. And then he start growing, growing this
Speaker 3: huge kind of memorial about this he beloved princess, that
Speaker 3: actually the entire kingdom became the temple of her. And
Speaker 3: then he was looking there and it's nothing else to do,
Speaker 3: and he look and look and look and start saying
Speaker 3: to the builders, destroy the big temple, destroy the small temple. Destroyed,
Speaker 3: this destroyed, and everything was left. It was just this
Speaker 3: coffin with the emeralds and jewors. And then he say, okay,
Speaker 3: now remove all the jewors, and there was only this
Speaker 3: simple wooden coffin there again. And then he look the
Speaker 3: coffin and he said, remove the coffin. That's the story.
Speaker 3: Teach you a lot.
Speaker 1: The story is our lives. We do all we can
Speaker 1: to fill it with people and places and things and
Speaker 1: performances and books we love. I'm looking around at your
Speaker 1: apartment all these things, but when you die, you can't
Speaker 1: take any of this. That's nothing.
Speaker 3: And this is why performers are the sort of incredible
Speaker 3: power of realization so many things and kind of energy
Speaker 3: that other type of art does not have, and it's
Speaker 3: so difficult to maintain because his immaterial is time based,
Speaker 3: takes everything.
Speaker 1: From you, and yet it seems you still have more
Speaker 1: to give to late. That is that a promise?
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't stop before we go, since I never
Speaker 2: had a chance to sit across from you during the
Speaker 2: artist is present, would you mind.
Speaker 1: If we just sat here for a moment.
Speaker 3: Close your eyes. I just want to say something. When
Speaker 3: you sit still and quiet, it's never stillness and quiet
Speaker 3: because there's so much space inside your body, in your organs,
Speaker 3: between liver and kidneys, between your heart and ribs and
Speaker 3: so on. There is a movement everywhere. Then all the
Speaker 3: planet is moving around the Ox, and then the planet
Speaker 3: is moving around the Sun, and the Sun and planets
Speaker 3: are moving around Milky Way, and everything is moving to
Speaker 3: another who knows where galaxy is. And to understand all
Speaker 3: this is really to be still and to understand actually
Speaker 3: stillnesses being in the moment.
Speaker 1: Well, Marina and Bravovich, I thank you very much for
Speaker 1: sitting in this moment with me, for all that you
Speaker 1: have done and will continue to do, and for inviting
Speaker 1: me into your home. No secrets at all.
Speaker 3: No secrets, but please promise and come to the workshop
Speaker 3: next time to do the cleaning the house, your own
Speaker 3: body house.
Speaker 1: It seems I have some more to do. Okay, thanks
Speaker 1: for sending with me, and that's our show.
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to leave us
Speaker 2: five stars on Apple, Spotify, wherever you do your listening.
Speaker 2: To learn more about Marina and her, visit our website
Speaker 2: at talk easypod dot com. Once there, you'll find our
Speaker 2: back catalog of over three hundred episodes, including talks with
Speaker 2: Joe Myrowitz, Kendi Wiley, Margaret Atwood, Zadi Smith, Toyen og Odetola,
Speaker 2: and Tom Hicks. To hear those and more, Pushkin Podcast
Speaker 2: listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.
Speaker 2: You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram at
Speaker 2: talk Easypod. If you want to purchase one of our
Speaker 2: mugs they Come and Cream or Navy, or our vinyl
Speaker 2: record with writer fran Lebowitz, you can do so at
Speaker 2: talk easypod dot com slash shop Talk easy is produced
Speaker 2: by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janixa Bravo. Our
Speaker 2: associate producer is Caitlin Dryden. Today's talk was edited by
Speaker 2: Clarice Gavara and Caitlin Dryden and mixed by Andrew Vastola.
Speaker 2: Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by
Speaker 2: Christian Shadowy, Video and graphics by Ian Chang, Derek Gaberzac,
Speaker 2: Ian Jones and Ethan Seneca. I also want to thank
Speaker 2: our team at Pushkin Industry, Justin Richmond, Julie Barton, Johnsonars,
Speaker 2: Kerrie Brody, Heather Fain, Eric Sander, Jorna mc millan, Cura Posey,
Speaker 2: Tara Machano, Jason Gambreel, Justine Lang, Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 2: I'm San Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy.
Speaker 2: I'll see you back here next Sunday with the One
Speaker 2: and Only ze Way. Until then, stay safe and so on.