Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as
Speaker 2: always so much for tuning in. Let's hear it from
Speaker 2: our super producer, mister Max two fans Williams.
Speaker 3: Max Boss Tweet, Boss Hog Boss. This is a boss.
Speaker 3: He's a boss, not a a political boss. But you're
Speaker 3: into politics. You did the research for this episode, didn't you? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 4: And actually, funny enough, my junior year ap US history class,
Speaker 4: it was a year long class. We were to school
Speaker 4: where we did like each semester we changed our classes.
Speaker 4: This was the only year long one did. But we
Speaker 4: would have these debates like every couple of months where
Speaker 4: you get a sign aside whether or not you agreed
Speaker 4: with it, you have to argue it. And I had
Speaker 4: to argue in uh high school that Boss Tweet was
Speaker 4: not the only person guilty for Tammany Hall and the tweet.
Speaker 3: One. And then you were voted most likely to head
Speaker 3: up a corrupt political machine.
Speaker 4: I think I was thinking I was voting most likely
Speaker 4: to end up in prison. And you know what, at
Speaker 4: thirty two years old, I still haven't made it there.
Speaker 3: Potato, Patato, my friend Potato Patato, But no, we are
Speaker 3: in fact talking today about political machines. And you know,
Speaker 3: I always been thought that term you're bent by the way,
Speaker 3: and I don't know, I'm no brown. Indeed, I always
Speaker 3: thought political machine specifically referred to organizations of that were
Speaker 3: rotten to the core, that were corrupt, but it was
Speaker 3: really more of a specific type of political organization, and
Speaker 3: then it became more associated with this kind of corruption
Speaker 3: that we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2: Is that how you see it as well? Yeah, you're
Speaker 2: it's similar. I was thinking about this in preparation for
Speaker 2: this one. It is similar to the way that in
Speaker 2: the United States scheme implies a conspiracy, but in the
Speaker 2: United Kingdom, scheme just means a government policy or plan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or even you know what a grand scheme that
Speaker 3: that is, mate, That's how the Brits talk.
Speaker 2: And today we are talking about something we've mentioned quite
Speaker 2: often in previous episodes of Ridiculous History, political machinations or machinations,
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. Political machines. Tammany Hall is
Speaker 2: one of the favorites of school teachers and college professors
Speaker 2: and historians the world round, because even now, when we
Speaker 2: talk about political machines. We talked about voting blocks, we
Speaker 2: talk about campaigns, causerains, we talk about the countless people
Speaker 2: behind a political candidate who make the votes happen.
Speaker 3: I think it's also a really popular choice for school
Speaker 3: because it one succeeded so absurdly, like it was just
Speaker 3: an absolute, like perfect model for whatever better or worse
Speaker 3: of what this thing is, and then it also just
Speaker 3: crashed and burned spectacularly. So it has this the perfect
Speaker 3: trajectory to not only be a lesson about how a
Speaker 3: thing works, but also to teach a bit of a
Speaker 3: moral lesson.
Speaker 2: Agreed, there's a bit of a fable to it, a
Speaker 2: bit of a larger than life kind of.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's some Shakespearean about this, about this rise and full
Speaker 2: to the earlier question. Britannica has a great article on this,
Speaker 2: and Britannica says that in US politics, a political machine
Speaker 2: is any organization for political party headed by this key,
Speaker 2: a small autocratic group, and this small group has enough
Speaker 2: votes to maintain control of any given community, whether that's
Speaker 2: a city, a county, or an entire state. Britannica goes
Speaker 2: on to point out that as American cities encountered explosive
Speaker 2: growth in the eighteen hundreds, partially due to immigration, partially
Speaker 2: due to migration from rural areas. City governments found huge
Speaker 2: problems in the world of honest politics because they were
Speaker 2: poorly structured, and in that chaos, these de facto organized
Speaker 2: crime enterprises in some cases. Yeah, they came into the
Speaker 2: vacuum and they built the stability, They built the voter blocks.
Speaker 2: The most famous, of course Tammany Hall run by William
Speaker 2: Boss tweeked.
Speaker 3: Oh why and my mine's Boss Hog. That's from the
Speaker 3: Dukes of Hazard, right, Boss Hog. I've never seen the
Speaker 3: Dukes of Hazzard. I just know it my reputations. The
Speaker 3: one where they they jump over the car hood and
Speaker 3: do a slide. It's like the It's like the Samuel
Speaker 3: Clemens or Street named Mark Twain definition of a c
Speaker 3: Everybody loves it. Nobody's seen, that's right.
Speaker 4: I wanted to say a movie there was.
Speaker 3: There was certainly a movie, uh you know, remake. I
Speaker 3: don't know. Was there a really bad I'm sure it was.
Speaker 3: Didn't have Tatum Chance chanting Tatum in it? Or did
Speaker 3: I make that up? There was twenty one Jump Street too.
Speaker 3: He was in that one that was also anyway, But
Speaker 3: I was going to bring something up really quickly since
Speaker 3: we're not going to really be able to dwell on
Speaker 3: this too much. But that definition of the political machine,
Speaker 3: it's very interesting because it almost makes me think of
Speaker 3: what unions ended up becoming during the kind of corrupt
Speaker 3: period of like the Teamsters Union, Like they control a
Speaker 3: voting block in their membership, and they also control like
Speaker 3: the means of distributing all of the things that make
Speaker 3: you know, America what it is in terms of the economy.
Speaker 3: So that's also an organization that was rife for corruption.
Speaker 3: And if anyone's seen the movie The Irishman, you know
Speaker 3: kind of how that story went as well. But Max,
Speaker 3: you being kind of our resident union expert, is that
Speaker 3: something you've thought about, like those early days of like,
Speaker 3: you know, the Teamster's Union and how ultimately folks like
Speaker 3: Jimmy Hoffa almost stepped in and became the boss tweed
Speaker 3: of that era. Cough cough. The mops a problem, not
Speaker 3: the union's cust Oh no, I know, I know, but
Speaker 3: it was they were working hand in hand in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways, and it was almost like it wasn't
Speaker 3: ever not going to go that way, and then it
Speaker 3: became very key to protect organizations like that from corruption.
Speaker 3: That requires a lot of you know, real oversight and effort. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it's the way I was thinking.
Speaker 4: Look when I was writing this entire episode, it was
Speaker 4: there's a need that the government is not filling, and
Speaker 4: thus a group steps in to fill said need. And
Speaker 4: so that's what these political machines with. That's what Tammany
Speaker 4: Hall was doing. Because Tammany Hall, the supporters of Hamny
Speaker 4: Hall now and back in the day, would say, Hey,
Speaker 4: there's all these Irish immigrants here who you know, don't
Speaker 4: have a job, don't have a place to live, they
Speaker 4: don't have any respect. We're we're setting them up, and
Speaker 4: you know what, because that's what we stand for, and
Speaker 4: that's what the Democratic Party stands for, and that's why
Speaker 4: they voted a Democrat also. So we don't get too
Speaker 4: far off off this, I gotta tell you all the
Speaker 4: cast in this Duke of Hazard's movie, because it is hilarious. Ye,
Speaker 4: it's got Burt Reynolds of course, Linda Carter, Willie Nelson,
Speaker 4: Jessica Simpson and starring Johnny Knoxville.
Speaker 3: Finally, finally, give the man as turns out, has pretty
Speaker 3: solid acting jobs.
Speaker 2: He does this also like acting. That's the thing there.
Speaker 2: These machines are often acting as though they are the
Speaker 2: best interest on the ground that Britannica definition does not
Speaker 2: end at our what we just said. They also talk
Speaker 2: about you what this reminds me of? This reminds me of, Well,
Speaker 2: let me give you the second part here to your point, Max,
Speaker 2: the machine the organization which is severely hierarchical and autocratic
Speaker 2: and severely non democratic. It makes its name, it cuts
Speaker 2: its teeth by responding to those individual problems that are
Speaker 2: often not addressed in historically neglected populations and neighborhoods in
Speaker 2: exchange for loyalty at the polls for people who might
Speaker 2: not have voted otherwise. They're saying, we'll do all this
Speaker 2: for you. Just do this one thing for us a
Speaker 2: favor in the future, if you will. It reminds me
Speaker 2: very much of what you see organized crime doing in
Speaker 2: Italy or in Japan, where you know, KOs Andostra, the
Speaker 2: and the Yakuza do very similar things, often in historically
Speaker 2: oppressed communities.
Speaker 3: And I certainly wasn't trying to malign unions anyway. I
Speaker 3: just think there's an interesting parallel, and the unions also
Speaker 3: are serving in need of the government does not address,
Speaker 3: and in doing that, it opens up the opportunity for corruption.
Speaker 3: And I just think that's where the parallel lies. Like
Speaker 3: I'm not saying unions are inherently corrupt, They're not sure.
Speaker 3: But in being this extra governmental force, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of opportunities to line individual's pockets and the pockets of groups,
Speaker 3: and to perhaps interface with less legitimate types of organizations.
Speaker 3: And I think that happens both with these unions, like
Speaker 3: and then the situation that we see with Hoffa and
Speaker 3: the irishmen, and with these political machines and the situation
Speaker 3: we see with Sammony Hall, right.
Speaker 4: And this is the thing I meant to say earlier
Speaker 4: about I'm just tossing it in now. The way I
Speaker 4: think about, like you know, unions and political machines and
Speaker 4: stuff like this, it's it's a thing. It's not a
Speaker 4: good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's a thing.
Speaker 3: It can go either way.
Speaker 4: Because they are in a position where they're helping people
Speaker 4: in need, where so if they're transparent and their motivations
Speaker 4: are good, they can do good for those people. But
Speaker 4: if they're not transparent, they can take advantage of those people.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and the reason political machine has become such
Speaker 2: a deletorious term, such an insult in American politics today
Speaker 2: is because at some point they began centering on keeping
Speaker 2: themselves on in power rather than helping people. Their goal
Speaker 2: was to perpetuate their organization. You could look to folks
Speaker 2: like Mayor Richard Daily of Chicago from nineteen oh two
Speaker 2: he died in nineteen seventy six. That guy was a
Speaker 2: political boss and leveraged this political machine power, this organization
Speaker 2: to help address the problems of a Chicago encountering unprecedented,
Speaker 2: amazing growth. There are other cases outside of Chicago, Boston, Philly,
Speaker 2: New York, Kansas City. In those situations, there were a
Speaker 2: lot of abuses of this power, a lot of corruptions,
Speaker 2: smoky backroom stuff. And that's why this term still functions
Speaker 2: as a pejorative. You know, there are these two big issues,
Speaker 2: at least as Britannica puts it, one who delivers the votes.
Speaker 2: The people who deliver the votes are often given what
Speaker 2: are called patronage jobs. You know those are that's when
Speaker 2: you hire the goons yea, and the sink offense and
Speaker 2: the cronies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, quid pro quo, right, you do for me, I'll
Speaker 3: give you this job. It's not a meritocracy at that point.
Speaker 3: It's literally, you know, pay to play, and you're paying
Speaker 3: with your vote, which means that you're not necessarily qualified
Speaker 3: for the job that you're getting in return. Therefore, this
Speaker 3: also has the potential to lead to further kind of
Speaker 3: breakdown of society because these jobs are populated by people
Speaker 3: who don't know what the hell they're doing. Not not
Speaker 3: no shade on the people. Everyone wants a job, but
Speaker 3: you also should you know, if you're working in a field,
Speaker 3: perhaps even in like a like something like sanitation, or
Speaker 3: even you know, something in the municipality, you got to
Speaker 3: know what you're doing or else those systems are going
Speaker 3: to fall apart.
Speaker 2: And the problem becomes exacerbated when we're talking about cities
Speaker 2: or communities that have strong ethnic or racial divides, especially
Speaker 2: back in the day in the United States, this patronage system,
Speaker 2: this hiring of people exclusively from an in group, can
Speaker 2: just accelerate those hostilities because most of the people who
Speaker 2: get jobs, most of the people who get powerful jobs
Speaker 2: overseeing services, they're going to be from the same background
Speaker 2: as the people who run the political machine, which means
Speaker 2: that ultimately you create a feedback loop where the folks
Speaker 2: who are supposed to be helped by these organizations become
Speaker 2: the ones who are first to be victimized. And you know,
Speaker 2: the US has done its best. This is a problem
Speaker 2: all the world over. The US has instituted civil service
Speaker 2: reforms that attempt to limit the number of friendly hires.
Speaker 2: I guess you could call them patronage jobs. And they've said, look,
Speaker 2: let's have direct primaries, let's let the people vote for
Speaker 2: candidates instead of letting the parties nominate candidates all the time,
Speaker 2: and let's have some sort of oversight, some sort of
Speaker 2: judicial review to reduce the power of these fiefdoms. And
Speaker 2: in their glory days, that's what they were. These were fiefdoms.
Speaker 2: These were the kind of things that gangster rap talks
Speaker 2: about when they say, oh, you've got to check with
Speaker 2: me before you come to my city. That was a
Speaker 2: real thing with Tammany Hall.
Speaker 3: No question about it. And sorry to bring it back
Speaker 3: to Scorsese again, but I've been on a Scorsese kick
Speaker 3: lately and recently watched Casino and Casino. You know, is
Speaker 3: all about the systems that run the casinos in Vegas
Speaker 3: and how cal sprang up one hundred percent, and a
Speaker 3: lot of those relationships, whether they originated with the mob
Speaker 3: or what have you, they involved paying off politicians, whether
Speaker 3: it be monetarily, which it did, but it also meant
Speaker 3: in giving jobs to their cronies or kids or whatever.
Speaker 3: And there's a really important scene that's kind of the
Speaker 3: crux of the like fall from Grace in Casino mild spoiler,
Speaker 3: but not really, where Ace Rothstein, the character played by
Speaker 3: Robert de Niro, fires a floor manager because he's incompetent.
Speaker 3: But that floor manager is the nephew or the son
Speaker 3: in law of a very high level politician. And then
Speaker 3: that politician's like, Nope, you're not please. You got to
Speaker 3: give my boy another chance. He goes, no, he's incompetent,
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it. So by standing his ground and
Speaker 3: not yielding to the rules of this organization in this arrangement,
Speaker 3: he essentially initiates his own downfall, and you see that
Speaker 3: happen throughout the rest of the movie. And that's just
Speaker 3: the kind of thing where if you don't play then
Speaker 3: you're gonna get got or You're gonna get replaced by
Speaker 3: somebody who will.
Speaker 2: And what a better introduction could there be for us
Speaker 2: to dive into, by far, the most infamous political machine
Speaker 2: in United States history, up there with the founding Fathers
Speaker 2: Once upon a Time, Tammany Hall.
Speaker 3: Tammany Hall is.
Speaker 2: Way older than a lot of people, guests, And I
Speaker 2: love that you found this fact here, Max, Tammany Hall
Speaker 2: was the executive committee of the Democratic Party in New
Speaker 2: York City, and they exercised political control through the typical
Speaker 2: blend of charity and patronage that we're talking about. Just
Speaker 2: like in Casino, this was happening with Tammany Hall. The
Speaker 2: name comes from an association that predates the American Revolution.
Speaker 2: It's named after the once upon a time chief of
Speaker 2: the Delaware People, Taminant, and Taminant, being a member of
Speaker 2: indigenous Delaware peoples, would have doubtlessly been surprised to learn
Speaker 2: how his name has just been dragged through the mud here.
Speaker 2: I mean, it goes back, like the story starts all
Speaker 2: the way back in the seventeen eighties.
Speaker 3: I mean, and Max, you know, it's funny. It's one
Speaker 3: of these things I've always just accepted, like I assume
Speaker 3: Tammany Hall was like a building where they did business,
Speaker 3: like they're hanging out in Tammany all on the Lower
Speaker 3: East Side or whatever. I've never thought to question it.
Speaker 3: You used to have filled in a blind spot historically
Speaker 3: for me that I've held for many years. Oh, you're
Speaker 3: it's gonna hurt.
Speaker 4: Then it is a building, It is a hall. The
Speaker 4: group's name is Tammany and the hall they have a hall,
Speaker 4: the named Tammany Hall. Okay, Still, the group became synonymous
Speaker 4: with the building, and it was all just you know,
Speaker 4: a bunch of white dude appropriating a name. Anyways, So yeah, Max,
Speaker 4: learn to take a compliment, bro.
Speaker 3: So I'm working on it. Don't worry, folks, they'll patch
Speaker 3: it up by the end of the show.
Speaker 2: So in The Demon Man in the seventeen eighties, he
Speaker 2: got the halves and the have nots. The havelves are
Speaker 2: the property owners, the aristocrats in all but name. They
Speaker 2: are the ones who run New York City and New
Speaker 2: York State. They are trying to stop freeholders or people
Speaker 2: who are not as rich as them, from voting, and
Speaker 2: they want to strengthen something called the Society of the Cincinnati.
Speaker 2: It's a bunch of veterans from the Continental Army who
Speaker 2: kind of like monarchies. They're kind of into monarchies. And
Speaker 2: so William Mooney, this carpenter upholster in New York City,
Speaker 2: he founds a different thing. It's called the Society of
Speaker 2: Saint Tammany or the Columbian Order, on May twelfth, seventeen
Speaker 2: eighty nine, just a few days after George Washington becomes
Speaker 2: the president, and he says what Mooney says, rather not Washington.
Speaker 2: Mooney says, we're going to create a national society that's
Speaker 2: going to be quote native in character and democratic in
Speaker 2: principle and action and speaking yeah, speaking of speaking of
Speaker 2: appropriation though. They give their officers Native American titles and
Speaker 2: they call the head of the organization the Grand Sachem,
Speaker 2: chosen from among his quote fellow chiefs.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny, Ben, And we may have talked
Speaker 3: about this on the show. We definitely did off air,
Speaker 3: But in working with some of our folks from the
Speaker 3: Next Up Initiative, which is an incredible thing to kind
Speaker 3: of help find underrepresented groups and give them the ability
Speaker 3: to tell their stories through podcasting, through mentorship, and you know,
Speaker 3: pairing them with like more seasoned folks and related to
Speaker 3: the ropes Max is a big part of it. Bens
Speaker 3: has worked on and I've worked on it to a
Speaker 3: slightly less degree, but hope to do more. I was
Speaker 3: working with one of our producers out of la who
Speaker 3: was working with some folks from an indigenous community on
Speaker 3: telling that kind of story which is grossly underrepresented. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think what is the reservation Dogs is maybe one
Speaker 3: of the only kind of high profile, sort of real
Speaker 3: on the ground stories about modern examples of what it's
Speaker 3: like to live in indigenous communities. But she presented us
Speaker 3: with an article with all of these very common expressions
Speaker 3: that are really really offensive to Native communities, to Indigenous communities,
Speaker 3: and a lot of them. That one was one that
Speaker 3: I did not think of. That's when I've thrown out,
Speaker 3: you know, in passing numerous times. Obviously, there are ones
Speaker 3: that are obvious, like low man, the Totem bowl and
Speaker 3: things like that, or get going on the reservation, hitting
Speaker 3: the war path and all that stuff. But it's because
Speaker 3: of stuff like this and the appropriation of these types
Speaker 3: of terms and the sort of like commodification of the
Speaker 3: image of these people, uh that that things like that
Speaker 3: are in fact, you know, a problematic I'm so. I
Speaker 3: didn't mean a soapbox there. I just it was news
Speaker 3: to me, and a lot of it. And I think
Speaker 3: it's always important. While I'm not living life in fear
Speaker 3: of being canceled or saying the wrong thing, you know,
Speaker 3: it's good to check yourself before you wreck yourself in
Speaker 3: terms of these types types of things.
Speaker 2: And life is a learning experience, no worries, my friend.
Speaker 2: It's not a soapbox, if we all agree, which we do.
Speaker 4: But another one also spirit antimal that's in our beast,
Speaker 4: in our beasts.
Speaker 2: And the totem pole thing. What what I find offensive
Speaker 2: about that, in addition to the other stuff, is that
Speaker 2: the bottom image of the bottom carving on the total
Speaker 2: pole is foundationally the most important.
Speaker 3: So they're even getting that basic party. I don't mean
Speaker 3: to derail, but like, can I not say spirit animal?
Speaker 3: I'm being I'm like that is that that's that is
Speaker 3: less offensive than it is, maybe just mildly appropriative, but
Speaker 3: I mean, and maybe it's like being used too flippantly
Speaker 3: because the actual concept of a spirit animal is historically
Speaker 3: a very sacred thing. Okay, I've already answered my own question.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say anymore.
Speaker 4: Moving on, my approach on this is, uh, don't ask me.
Speaker 4: I'm some white dude. Why don't we ask somebody who
Speaker 4: you know is not from a long history of appropriation.
Speaker 3: And Max was there the entire time. He is several
Speaker 3: centuries old.
Speaker 5: Exactly, So I thought, so somebody, we're getting to a buddy,
Speaker 5: somebody needed to so the the Tammany organization in these
Speaker 5: early days, they represent what you could call middle class
Speaker 5: opponents of the Federalist Party.
Speaker 2: However, there's an issue because they're cast of democracy, appropriation
Speaker 2: and romanticization aside. It doesn't it doesn't take into account
Speaker 2: less than middle class economic groups, people who also want
Speaker 2: their lives.
Speaker 3: To not stink. This ties into an earlier episode.
Speaker 2: Also shout out to our research associate, mister Max Williams
Speaker 2: on Aaron Burr.
Speaker 3: That's right at one point in his checkered career, Aaron Burr,
Speaker 3: and please, by the way, go ahead and listen to
Speaker 3: our two part episode about this really interesting and problematic fellow.
Speaker 3: But before experiencing his meteoric fall, can you have a
Speaker 3: meteoric fall? You can have a meteoric rise. Meteors fall
Speaker 3: typically the Shower, you know, his political downfall after you know,
Speaker 3: killing Alexander Hamilton and that duel ending up on the
Speaker 3: totally wrong side of history. That's an eighteen o four
Speaker 3: He was a member of this organization of Tammany Hall,
Speaker 3: and it was very instrumental in bringing about political victories
Speaker 3: for the then Democratic Republican Party, and Thomas Jefferson actually
Speaker 3: was a huge booster for them, and when he became
Speaker 3: president in eighteen oh one, he gave them props and
Speaker 3: he allowed them to really rise in power.
Speaker 2: Because that's how the system worked, right, one hand washes
Speaker 2: the other. A bunch of backscratching circles going on, just
Speaker 2: like you're in a warm up exercise for drama class.
Speaker 3: It wasn't.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until I think, well, it was pretty early, right,
Speaker 2: just in around the same time you mentioned in the
Speaker 2: early eighteen hundreds, the news got out and the average
Speaker 2: person was saying, Wow, these city officials over at Tammany
Speaker 2: are pretty corrupt.
Speaker 3: Something has to be done. Rabble rabble.
Speaker 2: So various people get removed from office. The controller gets
Speaker 2: removed right, the U, the comptroller, the comptroller not a
Speaker 2: thing yet. Unfortunately, the superintendent of the almshouse gets removed
Speaker 2: because they mess with the money. And then, of course,
Speaker 2: of special interest to our power, mister Max Williams, the
Speaker 2: inspector of bread is given the boot.
Speaker 3: Are these all like robin hood terms like alms for
Speaker 3: the poor and a crust of bread? Me lord? It
Speaker 3: is very weird. These these political terms clearly don't really
Speaker 3: exist anymore. But an almshouse, I wonder, is that is
Speaker 3: that like basically like the treasury well, you know, like
Speaker 3: alms for the poor? Got it? Got it? So it's
Speaker 3: technically its role is to look out for the disenfranchised.
Speaker 2: And I guess it's it's kind of like saying, get
Speaker 2: rid of the person who runs, you know, the city
Speaker 2: funded housing that makes it today, Like maybe if someone
Speaker 2: was here in Atlanta, Georgia, if someone was caught up
Speaker 2: in a scandal about affordable housing, right and they were
Speaker 2: in charge of Section eight or I wonder what that
Speaker 2: would be like, dare we imagine?
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? Exactly.
Speaker 2: And so the thing is these guys, and they were
Speaker 2: all dudes when they were proven to be corrupt, when
Speaker 2: they were removed officially from their positions, they were still
Speaker 2: very much in play and in power in the hierarchy
Speaker 2: of Tammany. So the next thing that happens around this time.
Speaker 2: The next thing that happens is that there is a
Speaker 2: growing Irish population in New York City. And I would
Speaker 2: say the quiet part out loud. This reminds me so
Speaker 2: much of Gangs of New York.
Speaker 3: Talking about the forty thieves and stuff. I mean, I
Speaker 3: think this well, the Gangs of New York certainly borrowed
Speaker 3: some ideas from this system. I think it was somewhat
Speaker 3: historically accurate, but also took some liberties, if I'm not
Speaker 3: mistaken by quite a few.
Speaker 2: I think the main reasons reminding me of this is
Speaker 2: the idea of forcing people to vote, of gathering up
Speaker 2: folks and then grouping, yes, crooming, cooping, cooping, cooping, that's
Speaker 2: the one, cooping yes. Uh So, the Irish immigrants don't
Speaker 2: like the Tammany system, and they are ineligible to be
Speaker 2: members of this organization because they are not quote native
Speaker 2: born patriots. So, with absolutely no acknowledgment of a pretty
Speaker 2: big piece of hypocrisy, hundreds of thousands of Irish immigrants
Speaker 2: say we're protesting against bigotry, against the bigotry of Tammany Hall.
Speaker 3: And they break.
Speaker 2: Into a meeting on the evening of April twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: eighteen seventeen. Eventually, Tammany says, Okay, for the greater good
Speaker 2: of our organization, we're going to naturalize these immigrants. We're
Speaker 2: going to say yes, you can be native born or
Speaker 2: native patriots if not native born.
Speaker 3: But they're not doing this out of benevol They're doing
Speaker 3: this in an effort to bolster their numbers and their control,
Speaker 3: their mechanism of control.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this move turns out to be good for them, because, again,
Speaker 2: as we said earlier, these political machines ultimately exist to
Speaker 2: ensure their own growth, right, and helping people becomes a
Speaker 2: secondary priority. So by accepting Irish immigrants in that population,
Speaker 2: Tammany massively expands its voter block. And then they're I
Speaker 2: hate that we keep having to use the word sachems,
Speaker 2: but that is what they called each other. Another one
Speaker 2: of their chiefs or they're big members. Martin van Buren
Speaker 2: becomes president in eighteen thirty six. This is still like
Speaker 2: the organizations this powerful at this point, they're controlling presidents
Speaker 2: of the United States, but they're still not at their glory.
Speaker 3: Days yet, not yet. But you know that it was
Speaker 3: heading in that direction. And with like you know, Martin
Speaker 3: van Buren who became president, like he knew what was
Speaker 3: going on. These weren't great people ascended into power. It
Speaker 3: really calls into question, not that we needed anything else
Speaker 3: to call in the question the moral you know, fiber
Speaker 3: of like early politicians or hell politicians throughout history. But
Speaker 3: I just get when I read about stuff like this,
Speaker 3: you just get a sense that almost everybody in power
Speaker 3: that ascended to these levels was morally bankrupt at some level.
Speaker 4: I will say Van Buren was against slavery. Of course,
Speaker 4: he didn't air that opinion until after he left politics,
Speaker 4: and he went through on all the horrible Native American
Speaker 4: removal stuff that Andrew Jackson laid down. So yeah, not great.
Speaker 2: He was conveniently timing his abolitionist stance. There's another way
Speaker 2: to put it right, and let's go to the Speaker Rights.
Speaker 2: Let's go to the Bill of Right Institute. This is
Speaker 2: where we start to see the origin of the man
Speaker 2: who became synonymous with Tammany Hall Boss Tweed. It's after
Speaker 2: the Civil War. The city of New York is terrible.
Speaker 2: You thought the nineteen seventies were bad, No, folks, people
Speaker 2: are just throwing trash out of their windows. There's horse
Speaker 2: manure everywhere. You're eternally coughing. If it's not just the
Speaker 2: air pollution, it's because you have tuberculosis or cholera. This
Speaker 2: is a great time for both of those diseases. And
Speaker 2: more than one million people are crowded in this city.
Speaker 2: The majority of them live in very terrible conditions. Poverties everywhere, illiteracy, crime, grifts.
Speaker 2: Irish and German immigrants make up almost half the population.
Speaker 2: They don't really have a political voice, and they depend
Speaker 2: on churches and private charities that are often over whelmed
Speaker 2: by just the sheer demand of people who need help. Ben,
Speaker 2: that illiteracy element is going to come into play in
Speaker 2: a very interesting way a little bit later. Wait for it, y'all.
Speaker 3: Enter William meg meghair MegaR Meager meger May let's call
Speaker 3: him boss Boss tweet Yeah we we we know him.
Speaker 3: We love him, we know, we love him, we know
Speaker 3: his boss tweet Yeah, William Meger Boss. Tweed the son
Speaker 3: of a furniture maker, and from a tender young age,
Speaker 3: Tweed uh realized that he was good at the wheels
Speaker 3: and the deals. You know, the ends and the outs
Speaker 3: the relationship management that is politics. He had what you
Speaker 3: would call a high charisma point count if he was
Speaker 3: a a role playing game character. A slight diversion. I
Speaker 3: just started Baldersgate three. Oh, amazing, great people. I'm still
Speaker 3: building my character. I'm overthinking charisma though, is a is
Speaker 3: a very interesting like if you play games like Fallou.
Speaker 3: I've never played ball Erskape, but certain games like Fallout
Speaker 3: or Skyrim or whatever, you can you get a certain
Speaker 3: number of points to spend into your character, and people
Speaker 3: usually don't think necessarily to spend it into charisma, but
Speaker 3: it gives you so many interesting like conversation checks, you
Speaker 3: know where it gives you more options to like convince
Speaker 3: people to do things for you. And that's what politics
Speaker 3: is in a lot of ways. Is the power of
Speaker 3: the pen, the power of the the smile and in
Speaker 3: the handshake, you know, to get people to do things
Speaker 3: for you that will keep you from having to actually
Speaker 3: get your hands directly dirty and or dare we say bloody? Now?
Speaker 2: Was Boss Tweed a super skilled administrator?
Speaker 3: Eh?
Speaker 2: He was really he was like LBG would be later.
Speaker 2: He was very good at buttonholding people bit Jambo that
Speaker 2: well that's what he called his penis. Yes, well was
Speaker 2: he was very good at h He's very good at
Speaker 2: intimidating or wheedling or cajoling people. And he eventually starts
Speaker 2: as the let me see, he starts as the alderman
Speaker 2: for the seventh Ward in New York City, which means
Speaker 2: he's joining a group called the to your earlier reference,
Speaker 2: the forty Thieves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so yeah, I hear it from gangs of
Speaker 3: New York.
Speaker 2: And he he goes to Congress for a while, and
Speaker 2: he's not good at it. He's not able to make
Speaker 2: much headway in his political career, so it only does
Speaker 2: one term in Congress. He comes back and he says,
Speaker 2: you know what, I like small ponds. It makes me
Speaker 2: a big fish. And so he uh, he says, this
Speaker 2: is where the action is on the ground, and he
Speaker 2: becomes one of the leading politicians in the big Apple
Speaker 2: while at the same time becoming one of the most corrupt.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's one of those things too, where you
Speaker 3: gotta wonder if people like to see themselves as villains.
Speaker 3: And I think the easy answer is no. And it
Speaker 3: also does it doesn't happen overnight. You know, you take
Speaker 3: your First, there's always that turning point in a movie
Speaker 3: where there's a figure like this, is that the day
Speaker 3: they took their first bribe, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: And then it just becomes easier and easier every step
Speaker 3: after that. So I do think it's important to like
Speaker 3: sort of humanize these folks to a degree and not
Speaker 3: think of him as like this giant gnashing you know,
Speaker 3: fat hog of a monster man, because he's a human,
Speaker 3: you know, and and humans, you know. He grew up
Speaker 3: in this city, and I think probably there was a
Speaker 3: desire to do some good. I don't think you're automatically
Speaker 3: like from the start, you know, I'm gonna get into
Speaker 3: politics so I can screw everybody over and enrich myself.
Speaker 3: It starts from, usually I think, a place of goodness,
Speaker 3: and then sort of devolves as also you realize that
Speaker 3: these problems are a lot harder to solve than I
Speaker 3: maybe thought. So hell, since it seems like an uphill battle.
Speaker 3: When I at least put some duck, it's in my pocket.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the argument becomes something like, well, all these
Speaker 2: other bad forces are corrupt, so therefore I am not corrupt.
Speaker 2: I am clever by using their tools of corruption against
Speaker 2: them and with them right. And eventually you take the
Speaker 2: longer view and you realize that from far enough away,
Speaker 2: you and your enemies look very much the same.
Speaker 3: I mean, you're right.
Speaker 2: One of Tweed's first official acts once he starts getting
Speaker 2: the attention of the Tammany organization, is to restore order
Speaker 2: after the New York City draft riots of eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 2: The protesters rioters here are largely from the Irish community,
Speaker 2: and they're saying, hey, why are you drafting poor people?
Speaker 2: This is the one where if you were a wealthier person,
Speaker 2: you paid three hundred bucks to hire a stand in
Speaker 2: to fight in the war, and I present tributes, right,
Speaker 2: And so folks are saying, no, don't make us your avatars.
Speaker 2: We're real human beings. Why do some people get this
Speaker 2: cheat code? Why don't we get it well?
Speaker 3: And the sad thing is, even without the draft, it's
Speaker 3: not that much different than this, because the military offers
Speaker 3: an out for some people from lower income communities and
Speaker 3: perhaps some people that you know have not found their
Speaker 3: way in life. So it's like, even without the draft,
Speaker 3: it's it's not it's similar. You know, there are it
Speaker 3: is the lower oftentimes Echelona community that have no option
Speaker 3: other than to join the military. And I'm not saying
Speaker 3: that's across the board, but it's just an interesting parallel
Speaker 3: where you see, you know, the more things change, the
Speaker 3: more they stay the same. M M.
Speaker 2: You could argue on or show like stuff. They don't
Speaker 2: want you to know that. That's at least part of
Speaker 2: the reason for privatized healthcare. Uh So, the the big
Speaker 2: thing Tweet does during these riots, he engineers a deal
Speaker 2: and he says, look, yeah, you don't have to be
Speaker 2: a millionaire, you don't have to be a popper, or
Speaker 2: everybody has a few things in common. If you are
Speaker 2: the head of a household and your family will be
Speaker 2: left destitute should you go to war and die, then
Speaker 2: you should get an exemption from the draft as well.
Speaker 2: And then he says, you know what, further, since we
Speaker 2: can't rock the boat too much, you can come to
Speaker 2: us at Tammany Hall. We will loan you the three
Speaker 2: hundred dollars to pay that substitute. And doing this, just
Speaker 2: this one act of policy gets Tweed a huge amount
Speaker 2: of influence over the working population of New York City,
Speaker 2: and that in turn gets him a lot of power
Speaker 2: in any policy discussion in the city, including everything from
Speaker 2: like where are we going to build the next skyscraper
Speaker 2: or whatever?
Speaker 3: And this is probably some of the first places that
Speaker 3: I heard some of the tactics that would ultimately be
Speaker 3: really kind of honed by the mob and organized crime,
Speaker 3: the idea of like, let's get behind and put our
Speaker 3: investment into these big projects that on the surface are
Speaker 3: like good for the community, but also offer a lot
Speaker 3: of ways to shave and skim and charge for things
Speaker 3: that never took place, you know, materials that were never
Speaker 3: actually purchased, you know, forging invoices and things like that.
Speaker 3: It's a great way to disguise money and to steal
Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars.
Speaker 2: Hiring employees that don't exist, getting your vig on the
Speaker 2: in and the out the entire way through. Yes, and
Speaker 2: that depends on hiring your cronies, right, that depends on
Speaker 2: hiring your goons and your followers.
Speaker 3: And as sopranos, they call those jobs no show jobs.
Speaker 2: Right, That's what Tweed is doing, not specifically no show jobs,
Speaker 2: but he's putting people in power, his cronies and his
Speaker 2: goons who are loyal to his greater aims. He's sending
Speaker 2: them from the smoky back rooms into the halls of government.
Speaker 2: These folks collectively become known as the Tweed Ring. And
Speaker 2: at this point they are raking it very soon, They're
Speaker 2: raking in millions of dollars from corruption. They're skimming it
Speaker 2: off the top. Life is good. They're handed people contracts
Speaker 2: as favors, you know, and saying, hey, look, get me
Speaker 2: x percentage of this and then do as thou wilt.
Speaker 3: So he gets.
Speaker 2: Favors and bribes, he gets kickbacks. It's everything good government
Speaker 2: is not supposed to be.
Speaker 3: Was do what thou wilt? Maybe the whole of the
Speaker 3: law is that Anton Levey or is that from something
Speaker 3: older than that? And he just popularized it in terms
Speaker 3: of the Church of Satan. I think it's Crowley Crowley,
Speaker 3: that's right. Sorry, quick off topic. Have you guys seen
Speaker 3: the new Fincher movie yet, The Killer? Yes, I think
Speaker 3: it's excellent. I like it a lot, a lot. I've
Speaker 3: watched it three times. But there's a great part where
Speaker 3: he says this sociopathic Patrick Bateman type lone wolf Asassity says,
Speaker 3: let do what thou wilt be the whole of the law.
Speaker 2: Somebody said that I can't remember who it probably it's
Speaker 2: like the darkest comedy Finchers made. Oh, I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 3: It reminds me a lot of drive, which I know
Speaker 3: isn't for everybody, but it has some of those vibes.
Speaker 3: It's very stylish, and I just think everyone should check
Speaker 3: it out. Did you like it? But I did? I enjoyed.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed the clear discrepancy between the killers internal monologue
Speaker 2: and his actions, and a lot of the comedy can
Speaker 2: be found.
Speaker 3: He's a screw up too, He's not even Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just I think it's great. Not when he uh let
Speaker 3: us know what you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because again not for everybody, but if you if
Speaker 2: you go into it realizing it is what would be
Speaker 2: called a black comedy, that I think you're gonna enjoy it.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Some of the Tammany and the Tweed Ring, Uh, this
Speaker 2: is a new This is like a renaissance for Tammany Hall.
Speaker 2: They have ever quite even though they possessed influence over presidents,
Speaker 2: they had never gone to this level of efficiency in
Speaker 2: grift and graft.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you can't get to this level without those
Speaker 3: cronies in high places. You just can't. It's just not possible.
Speaker 3: And so not only do they have people in stock,
Speaker 3: because they've been around for so long, to the point
Speaker 3: that Max found earlier that I had no idea how
Speaker 3: long this organization had been around and how it had evolved.
Speaker 3: You can't do that. You can't get to a place
Speaker 3: like this without starting on the ground floor. And that's
Speaker 3: exactly what they did. And now they're at the place
Speaker 3: where any semblance of we're helping people is just out
Speaker 3: the window, and they're yeah, sure, they're doing these projects,
Speaker 3: building like the Brooklyn Bridge for example, you know, paving roads,
Speaker 3: building marble court house, a lot of the things that
Speaker 3: we see in New York City today. So you can't
Speaker 3: really argue that the projects themselves weren't iconic and quote
Speaker 3: unquote good. They were building hospitals. But within those projects
Speaker 3: where all, like we said, are all these opportunities for
Speaker 3: patting the costs and adding all of these you know,
Speaker 3: kind of imaginary expenses that literally just went right into
Speaker 3: the pockets of Tweed and his pals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like think of the County Courthouse, which was originally
Speaker 2: going to be two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to build,
Speaker 2: still a ton of money but eventually it ended up
Speaker 2: being more than thirteen million dollars in costs. It was
Speaker 2: never completed, but the Tweed Ring bank accounts were made whole.
Speaker 2: It's really construction project for those guys' bank accounts. I mean, look,
Speaker 2: Tweed also is getting a little bit dumb with his money.
Speaker 2: He's being a little loud about it. He has a
Speaker 2: mansion on Fifth Avenue, he has another home in Connecticut.
Speaker 2: He's throwing all these parties and weddings. He's going real godfather.
Speaker 2: I think there's a great thing match to point out
Speaker 2: in the research that the Tweed Ring in this time
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy three, they bought in an estimated fifty
Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars in in eighteen seventy three money.
Speaker 2: And I think we do have an inflation calculator, but
Speaker 2: that's in that's like their profits.
Speaker 3: That's that's like in the money that was totally skimmed
Speaker 3: and gripped and grafted, you know. Yeah, so yeah, I
Speaker 3: would love to hear a beep in of boom and
Speaker 3: a bop bop boom.
Speaker 2: And a dude boom boo boo, but due boom boom,
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars in eighteen seventy three and twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three money. That's almost one point three billion. That's one billion,
Speaker 2: two hundred and eighty two million, four hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: four thousand, one hundred and sixty six dollars.
Speaker 3: And has on the lowest seven cent. Yes, that's not
Speaker 3: the low I mean what and and I mean it
Speaker 3: makes sense that we would have a pretty wide range,
Speaker 3: because this does hard to track. That's the point of it.
Speaker 2: Make sixty seven cents right like two hundred million on
Speaker 2: the upper end to your point in eighteen seventy three,
Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars in twenty twenty three. That is
Speaker 2: drum roll please, mister Williams, five billion, one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty nine million, eight hundred and sixteen thousand, six hundred
Speaker 2: and sixty six dollars. And you'll love this partnal sixty
Speaker 2: seven cents.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh my goodness, what a oh, very very interesting.
Speaker 3: And you know, I'd like to think that this kind
Speaker 3: of thing couldn't happen anymore. Oh sure, that would be
Speaker 3: absolutely naive and foolish. And what I was gonna say too,
Speaker 3: is this whole like mansion on Fifth Avenue home in
Speaker 3: Connecticut that's the template for like corrupt New York money men.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not going to name any names, but
Speaker 3: like having you'd think you'd have to really be low
Speaker 3: key and not have a big you know, property and
Speaker 3: not you know, try to overestimate the uh square footage
Speaker 3: of your apartment buildings because you'd want us to below
Speaker 3: the radar. But that's not how these folks work. Ostentatiousness
Speaker 3: is the name of the game. They're like, yeah, come
Speaker 3: at me, come at me, see what happens.
Speaker 2: And that question they asked or that director they gave
Speaker 2: was answered. The reason the tweed Rings specifically does not
Speaker 2: exist the way it existed back then all goes down
Speaker 2: to journalism. Yes, thank your local journalists the New York Times.
Speaker 2: The people working there really put their lives on the
Speaker 2: line talking about this corruption on the part of people
Speaker 2: who ran the town. They started running stories about these
Speaker 2: famous specific grafts and grifts. And then if you go
Speaker 2: to Harper's Weekly, you see the editorial cartoons of the
Speaker 2: legendary Thomas Nast, whom I love, love, love, and he
Speaker 2: was doing the one of the best things you can
Speaker 2: do as a cartoonist. He said, look, there are journalists
Speaker 2: who are raking the muck, hitting the streets, reporting the facts.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to get people who may not care
Speaker 2: about politics normally, I'm gonna get them to laugh and
Speaker 2: understand how bad this is. An approach that John Stewart
Speaker 2: later used on The Daily showed a great effect.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna draw Boss Tweed as a giant pig monster
Speaker 3: clutching bags of money, you know, with dollar signs on it,
Speaker 3: stomping on poor people that are bowing and scraping in
Speaker 3: the streets. Oh, I get what that means. That looks bad.
Speaker 3: I wonder what the deal is with this guy. Maybe
Speaker 3: I should think twice about the power of cartoons. We
Speaker 3: spoke earlier about how a lot of people in this
Speaker 3: time in New York City couldn't read. So therefore, not
Speaker 3: only was it just really impactful these cartoons, it was
Speaker 3: crucial because those deep dive investigative pieces, while incredibly important,
Speaker 3: and that's where like the meat of the info was,
Speaker 3: those would not be reaching a lot of folks for
Speaker 3: that very reasons because they couldn't read. So the cartoons
Speaker 3: is a way of getting everybody.
Speaker 2: Involved, which made Tweed even more concerned, because you know,
Speaker 2: the the deep dive. Written articles are arguably for the learned,
Speaker 2: and I hate that term, but that's what he was
Speaker 2: looking at. He was saying, my voting blocks are working class.
Speaker 2: They understand cartoons. I need to look good in this
Speaker 2: sphere of public conversation. And so he went to the
Speaker 2: New York Times and went to Nast Thomas Nas specifically,
Speaker 2: and tried to bribe them into silence. No one took
Speaker 2: him up on the deal. No one shook his hand
Speaker 2: on that, And that's part of how that's part of
Speaker 2: why history works out the way it did. Boss Tweed
Speaker 2: ultimately gets arrested in eighteen seventy one October. He's indicted
Speaker 2: shortly thereafter. He has tried in eighteen seventy three. The
Speaker 2: first trial, get this has a hung jury. For some reason,
Speaker 2: not every jury member can agree this guy is guilty
Speaker 2: despite the evidence. Again, for some reason, not everybody on
Speaker 2: the jury thinks the evidence is sufficient to convict him
Speaker 2: of these clearly provable crimes. So he goes to a
Speaker 2: second trial and he is found guilty of more than
Speaker 2: two hundred different crimes, and he is sentenced to twelve
Speaker 2: years in lock up.
Speaker 3: Speaking of that hung jury, just I mean, maybe it's
Speaker 3: just obvious, but we're probably talking about jury tampering, intimidation.
Speaker 3: That's always say to it that way, Yes, for some reason. Yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 3: I'm just like I wonder what those possibilities in this
Speaker 3: day and age, it would have been a lot easier
Speaker 3: to do it would than it would be now.
Speaker 2: Oh one hundred percent. Yeah, and that's that's clearly what
Speaker 2: happened was jury tampering. He gets sentenced in the second trial,
Speaker 2: as we said, twelve years, and he doesn't get out.
Speaker 2: He doesn't serve his entire term. He dies in prison.
Speaker 2: And Max wants you to know that he dies on
Speaker 2: April twelfth, eighteen seventy eight. Max, why do you want
Speaker 2: people to know that?
Speaker 4: Well, April twelfth is my birthday. It's not a great day,
Speaker 4: by the way, it's the day of the Civil War started.
Speaker 4: FDR died on April twelfth also, and then you know,
Speaker 4: eighteen seventy eight, that's when I came into existence.
Speaker 3: Max also wants you to know that Boss Tweedt died
Speaker 3: on the toilet. He did not die in the toilet. Damn.
Speaker 4: If somebody dies in the toilet, I will make sure
Speaker 4: to point it out.
Speaker 2: We yeah, I think I think we we've got a
Speaker 2: pretty good sense for that.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: For some reason, we can we can sort of figure
Speaker 2: out when people died of the toil. Anyway, he is
Speaker 2: in the Ludlow Street Jail at Grand Street on the
Speaker 2: Lower east Side when he dies. It's the morning of
Speaker 2: April twelfth, It's around eleven forty am.
Speaker 3: And he starts whispering. He starts whispering, whispering, comes closer, closer,
Speaker 3: closer still.
Speaker 2: He says to his lawyer, William Edelstein, and Willie leans
Speaker 2: in and he's trying to listen to what Tweet is saying.
Speaker 2: And Tweed reportedly says, wow, well, till didn't fair Child
Speaker 2: if killed me, he didn't echo like that.
Speaker 3: I haven't. I have become worm's meat. They have murdered
Speaker 3: it's me. So who's he talking about when he says
Speaker 3: Tilden and Fairchild Charles Fairchild, the New York State attorney
Speaker 3: general love, a good attorney general, a good good attorneys general,
Speaker 3: who had essentially run him up the flagpole, you know,
Speaker 3: taken him to the mattresses, whatever expression you'd like to use.
Speaker 3: He he believed, at least Boss Tweet had believed in
Speaker 3: his mind that he had cheated him because he guaranteed
Speaker 3: him basically to walk free in exchange for a full confession,
Speaker 3: which seems too good to be true.
Speaker 2: But from his perspective, it's like with pro quote, of course,
Speaker 2: you do you know who I am?
Speaker 3: Right, you've seen my pig Man cartoon. It is I
Speaker 3: Boss Tweet. But right, you know, let's just say we
Speaker 3: could probably understand how at this point Tweed would have
Speaker 3: had a bit of an overinflated sense of himself and
Speaker 3: what he was capable of, and he maybe believed the
Speaker 3: outcome would would swing more in his favor. So he
Speaker 3: believed that he'd been cheated by Charles Fairchild. Samuel Jones
Speaker 3: Tilden was the governor of New York who had essentially
Speaker 3: made his name and his career on shutting down Tweed
Speaker 3: and his cronies and his organization, making promises like I
Speaker 3: will see this corrupt man die behind boss, you know,
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and going to clean up this city.
Speaker 3: Well they were right about Tweet. Tweed did die behind bars.
Speaker 3: But one man is not an organization entire, So Tammany
Speaker 3: Hall powers through, and when the boss is out of
Speaker 3: the picture, Boss Tweed dies they go on sort of
Speaker 3: a Hearts and minds reevaluation self inventory. A guy named
Speaker 3: John Kelly proceeds or comes after Tweed, succeeds Tweed, and
Speaker 3: then they bring in these reformers like Samuel Jones Tilden
Speaker 3: to serve as again I hate this term sachems. But eventually,
Speaker 3: and we're going to paraphrase some of this for time,
Speaker 3: eventually we see the corruption rear its ugly profitable head again,
Speaker 3: and then Tammany tries to clean itself up again. Then
Speaker 3: it becomes corrupt again, and this goes back and forth
Speaker 3: until they make an enemy of a guy you may
Speaker 3: know from this show for US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
Speaker 3: who says, all right, we're going to bust Tammany down.
Speaker 3: It's going to be a county organization because they failed
Speaker 3: to support him in nineteen thirty two. So even he
Speaker 3: has some important self interest in these things. It declines
Speaker 3: in power during these various mayoral reforms, and eventually the
Speaker 3: most powerful political machine in America in history one of
Speaker 3: is dissolved. It fades away. Max Sawy sneaks some key
Speaker 3: little easter eggs into these outlines, referring to Roosevelt as
Speaker 3: the future American King strike through prett president. Oh he
Speaker 3: got closed, had to write some laws about him.
Speaker 4: I'm a fan of FDR. I like the stuff he did,
Speaker 4: but it doesn't change the fact he was president for
Speaker 4: thirteen years. Right, he was not that old when he died.
Speaker 4: He was planning to stay for a good bit laws.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, to be fair, many many other nations
Speaker 2: have quarreled with that same thing the United States. I
Speaker 2: hope this statement age as well. The United States has
Speaker 2: successfully practiced the peaceful transfer of power for quite some time,
Speaker 2: and not many nations can say the same. So let's
Speaker 2: hope that continues. To your earlier statement. Noel, at this,
Speaker 2: I think, you know what, what a wild ride. We
Speaker 2: decide we're going to make this a one parter. We
Speaker 2: have more we'll get to in the future.
Speaker 3: But probably could say some of this for our future
Speaker 3: grab baggie type things. I agree left behind episode, but
Speaker 3: there was a one little point that I wanted to
Speaker 3: bring back. We started with this point. Sometimes these organizations,
Speaker 3: they start with good intentions, and there were things that
Speaker 3: Tammany Hall accomplished that were not bad. Like a lot
Speaker 3: of these immigrants, and these folks were disenfranchised and did
Speaker 3: not have opportunities, and Tammany Hall's original goal, for whatever
Speaker 3: purpose it ultimately amounted to, was to help keep those
Speaker 3: people from being, you know, from fully fully falling through
Speaker 3: the cracks.
Speaker 2: True good quoint And maybe that's where we end with
Speaker 2: For further reading and check out the case for Tammany
Speaker 2: Hall being on the right side of history over at
Speaker 2: NPR News Boston. That's w b u R. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much as always to our ridiculous historians for tuning in.
Speaker 2: Thanks to our super producer and research associate. I love
Speaker 2: to shout out our research associates, mister Max Williams for
Speaker 2: this one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, excellent Max with the facts. Indeed, huge shout out
Speaker 3: to Alex Williams. You compose this theme. Chris Frasciota, Steves,
Speaker 3: Jeff Goats here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizz Ben,
Speaker 3: my guy, my buddy. We should start a political machine.
Speaker 3: What do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. All we need is three votes.
Speaker 2: Are we gonna do? The three of us vote for ourselves?
Speaker 3: Do the eyes have it? Oh? Yeah, nay, wait, I
Speaker 3: I see. We'll see you next episodes for more podcasts
Speaker 3: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows.